As per the new FAQ. That means the Bolter Bolt LRBT can shoot all its weapons at full BS. I'm still pondering the consequences of this change, but I think they are positive since I rarely moved my tanks more than 6" anyway. Also, it might mean Pask becomes a much better option. What does everyone think?

bb

CRAP! I can't flat out my Leman russes anymore!

All joking aside, russes should have been heavy vehicles the whole time. It didn't make sense for them not to be. This does make sponsons a lot better, and the bolter boat exterminators and punishers just got a lot more mobile. Also, executioners can move and shoot 5 plasma cannons a turn... excellent *laughs evilly*

Yay, they fixed hunting lances! Of course, they had to wait for four years until it was a month and a half too late...

As for the russes, see below.

Guys, this change really sucks for ordinance russes, because now the snap firing takes effect.
Heavy only means the tank counts as stationary for firing. Shooting an ordinance weapons makes everything else snapfire.

SO LONG TRUSTY HULL LASCANNONS.

Also ^, how are you getting 12 inches? They can only move combat speed, which is 6.

We still have lumbering behemoth don't we? Then we can still fire lascannon at normal BS_

No. Specifically states that the Heavy rule replaces Lumbering Behemoth.

I guess it makes eradicators sort of useful, as theyre the only large blast variant that is a heavy weapon.

Yeah, russes just got slower, making them no longer a good infantry screen. And they lost the ability to shoot anything else with their splatcannon.

Put another way, russes got worse.

Unless, of course, they're a non-ordnance russ, which can now move 6" and fire everything at full BS.

How did they fix Hunting Lances? I'm looking at the FAQ and I don't see a change. They're still S5 I5, only clarification is that they are AP3, which was RAI already.

Yeah, non-ordiance russes got way better and more manuverable.
LRBT and Demolishers just lost all their secondary weapons. :/ That's a kick in the teeth.

^ Hunting lances are +2 strength, instead of set to str5. Means furious charge actually work for them (and other str modifying things.)

Man, you guys must play with some serious Rules Lawyer for that change to be clarified.

Yeah, I got so excited that I forgot about the Ordinance rule. So this rule helps the Exterminator and Punisher, I guess, and makes the tanks I actually use worse. Crap.

Crap thats not good, as my favorite way to run a russ was with a hull lascannon.

Not sure what I'm going to do now. Means I'll have to pry apart a couple of my older russes...

I figure this will be errated again sometime in the future. The iconic LRBT has bolter sponsons and a hull lascannon. All of those are now useless.
Heavy vehicles should ignore the ordinance snap fire rule.

Oh, fun fact regarding rough riders. Seeing as that new weapon profile replaces the entire second paragraph, they get an extra attack on the charge for having two hand weapons. The lance is not a specialist weapon, so it counts as a second close combat weapon. 3 S5 I5 attacks each on the charge aint so shabby. Maybe theyll actually be proper glass cannons now.

Random setup: Eradicator bolter boat... 9 HB shots + the Large Blast shot (it is Heavy!) = sad enemy medium infantry.

Thoughts? Because I like it!

Yeah, the eradicator might be somewhat decent now, as opposed to entirely obsolete. It's the only large blast variant that can shoot hull/sponsons at full BS.

How about this line of thinking?

I think we can all agree that, with the possible exception of the exterminator, russes aren't getting hull lascannons. Too many points to throw around BS1 shots, or are incongruous with the main gun (as in the case of the punisher or eradicator). This means hull heavy bolters.

It also means that on ordnance russes, you're going to be firing either the main gun OR everything else. What if we thought of them like this? Russes have two groups of weapons, or as if they had a single weapon that came with two fire modes? As in, they have a gun that shoots heavy bolter shots that can also, instead, fire as a single large blast?

In this case, it would actually make sense to make EVERY russ a bolter boat russ. In the case of a demolisher, say, they have one gun "setting" that mows down light infantry, peels wounds off MCs, and can swat at fliers. Their other "setting" is to crack terminators. Think of it by means of cheap flexibility.

And, of course, for non-ordance russes, the bolter boat was probably the configuration you were already using anyways.

I don't want to pay 20+ points to not use my turret weapon.

170 points for 3 bs3 heavy bolters? .... no.

So let me get this straight... Guard prioritize

big guns = Slow, vulnerable to CC but kills things in mass
Automatic Guns = Faster, Less vulnerable to CC and kills less in mass

Balance who knew?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So let me get this straight... Guard prioritize

Big Guns = Slow, vulnerable to CC but kills things in mass
Automatic Guns = Instead of big guns, slow, vulnerable to CC and kills less in mass

Balance who knew?

Fix'd. I can't recall a single "automatic gun" in the IG codex that is fast and less vulnerable to CC...

Big guns arent any slower or more vulnerable to automatic guns. They just shoot less. Thus killing less things in mass.

Balance? This isn't it.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So let me get this straight... Guard prioritize

Big Guns = Slow, vulnerable to CC but kills things in mass
Automatic Guns = Instead of big guns, slow, vulnerable to CC and kills less in mass

Balance who knew?

Fix'd. I can't recall a single "automatic gun" in the IG codex that is fast and less vulnerable to CC...

anything that sprays bullets. Basically a stationary tank is a dead tank far as a power klaw is concerned and in order to fire a big ordanice gun and other guns with a LRBT you need to stay still now, while other builds like punisher ect are now more encouraged to move and shoot thus giving them less vulnerable CC ratios.

Ugh. NO.

Theyre Heavy vehicles now. They count as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons.
Ordinance weapons could always move and shoot. But now they can only snap fire everything else (with the loss of lumbering behemoth). It has nothing to do with if theyve moved or not.

With this FAQ there's absolutely no reason for a russ to ever sit still, ordinance or not.

This means even more of the Gw russes will make no sense, and this change will confuse a lot of new players.

"yeah, that awesome lumbering behemoth rule you see? Doesn't exist, now you just snap fire everything if the turret fires." Really sucks, because all i have are the old russes. I have to figure out a way to convert them to heavy bolters now. Sponsons are still not worth it for the ordnance ones though, perhaps even less now. Only thing I can think of is multimelta sponsons and lascannon on a demolisher to be able to switch between tank and heavy infantry hunting, and even that isn't great.

Yeah, this was a pretty dumb errata. Take a confusing rule and make it even more confusing and less useful.

If youre going to use multimelta and lascanonn for tank/infantry split, put them on an eradicator now. LC/MM wounds heavy infantry, erradictor cannon piles on more wounds. LC/MM shoots at tanks, cannon adds potential glances, or hits nearby infantry.

I think you were missing my point.

You spend 165 points for a Heavy1 S10 Ap2 ordnance 24" gun.

You spend 185 points for a Heavy1 S10 Ap2 ordnance 24" / Heavy 9 S5 Ap4 36" gun.

The added points are for added flexibility. There are things that a single splatcannon can't handle as well as 9-shot S5 weapon, such as fliers, or MCs, or picking off stragglers, or shooting at displaced units.

Perhaps we should think of russes as bolter boats that come with a good secondary gun to handle their niches rather than a splatcannon with interesting fiddly bitz tacked on.

Or, likewise, a demolisher could be a multimelta tank with actual armor and a lascannon if you want it and a pie plate just in case you come across terminators.

Plus, I'd also note that a bolter boat isn't literally worthless. for 20 points you get 9 hits over 6 turns, which is the same number of hits you get with a 90 point HWS in the two turns its likely to survive on the board.

 Ailaros wrote:

Plus, I'd also note that a bolter boat isn't literally worthless. for 20 points you get 9 hits over 6 turns, which is the same number of hits you get with a 90 point HWS in the two turns its likely to survive on the board.

Uhm... 20 points for 4.5 S5 AP4 shots per turn instead of the pie plate? I dunno, sounds like "If you have the points then go with it... But only if you have the points!". The extra "flexibility" is sooooo situational, I don't know if it worths 20 points (the cost of the 4. plasma half-gun for the vets!).

That's my point, though. It's not situational.

A pie plate will never target fliers. It will always struggle to pick off stragglers. It will always struggle against displaced units. It will never be as good against monstrous creatures. They even peel off fewer HP against AV10 vehicles.

I feel like I come across these more often than I come across tightly-wadded infantry just begging to be battlecannoned.

... and you'll still always have the battlecannon in those few instances where you do.

I'll shoot fliers with other things, thankyou. There will always be stuff on the ground for me to drop demolisher shells on.

I can't think of anything (short of a single remaining enemy model in a decimated unit) that I would rather shoot 3 heavy botlers at, instead of the turret ordinance. If I buy a demolisher, its for the demolisher cannon. Not for the 3 heavy bolters I could put on it. If I'm going to do that, why buy the demolisher at all? Use an exterminator or other heavy weapon russ.

Those 20 points will pay for two more autocannons elsewhere that will always be able to shoot. Putting them into an ordinance russ is a total waste of points. You wont be shooting them accurately 90% of the time, and if you are, youre not shooting the bigass gun for which you bought the tank in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:
That's my point, though. It's not situational.

A pie plate will never target fliers. It will always struggle to pick off stragglers. It will always struggle against displaced units. It will never be as good against monstrous creatures. They even throw down more glances on on AV10 vehicles.

I feel like I come across these more often than I come across tightly-wadded infantry just begging to be battlecannoned.

Well. Then why would you force the normal Russ? Take an Exterminator and shoot stuff with the AC+HB love...

And 9 HB shots can only deal with (somewhat rare) situational things, like the "lone SM on the objective" or the infamous "final HP Vyper". Against anything else, it is just an added annoyance what is a little bit expensive for 170 points.

Eradicator with 3 heavy flamers. Hilarious anti-hoard flame tank?

All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

So I realized something here. My last game I used a Demolisher with LC/MMs and 2 bolter boat Exterminators. I like the idea of putting the HBs on the Demolisher, for one, because sometimes you just want to kill the last guy in a unit, and also because weapon destroyed results are less likely to drop the turret gun. I thought to myself: "you could just switch turrets with one of the Exterminators." But then I thought: "But what will you do with this Lascannon/Multimelta hull, just rip the guns off? What are you going to do, put the Exterminator turret on it and get 4 TL S7 AP4, 1 S9 AP2, and 2 S8 AP1 shots that can all fire at full BS while moving...?"

And then my internal monologue shut up and basked in the glory of such a tank. 195 Seems like a decent deal for that volume of AT fire.

 Ailaros wrote:

The added points are for added flexibility. There are things that a single splatcannon can't handle as well as 9-shot S5 weapon, such as fliers, or MCs, or picking off stragglers, or shooting at displaced units.

Perhaps we should think of russes as bolter boats that come with a good secondary gun to handle their niches rather than a splatcannon with interesting fiddly bitz tacked on.

Or, likewise, a demolisher could be a multimelta tank with actual armor and a lascannon if you want it and a pie plate just in case you come across terminators.

The thing is though that there's already a lot of other good stuff out there that can still handle terminators. Really IG was probably hurt the least (excepting Nids) when it comes to the power weapon nerf. I mean, sure, powerblobs got hurt, but IG has no lack of places to take AP1/2.

I can see your argument for the splatcannon bolter boat, though it kind of goes against your "Guard need to specialize" philosophy. I just can't see a good case for your suggested demolisher variant.

IMO, don't start ripping models apart. Just look at what happened with the Tau FAQs: target locks were removed in the first FAQ, then put back in with the second FAQ, most likely because someone realized that they'd overlooked a problem. Instead, complain politely to GW, and maybe the next FAQ will restore the line that the turret doesn't restrict your other weapons.

And then my internal monologue shut up and basked in the glory of such a tank. 195 Seems like a decent deal for that volume of AT fire.

I like this guy.

Thats pretty much a transport killing LR. The turret will handle the lower value targets, while the multi meltas and lascannons can dent armor 13/14. The fact that its on an AV 14 chassis makes it for a good unit to send headlong towards the enemy. Even though it can only move 6" a turn, you can direct the enemy vehicles towards other units that can take them down.

So maybe its worth the cost of taking Multi Melta sponsons now?

My issue with the ruling is that it splits the ordnance tanks in half. Demolishers work best as a mobile weapons platform dishing out high str ap2 death, that has been removed.

A Stock LRBT isn't hurt as badly , but loses its ability to pierce AP12-13 with any regularity.

The heavy weapons tank are much better now. Executioners are the big winner IMO. 6 AP 2 shots upon the move is sick.

 McGibs wrote:
I figure this will be errated again sometime in the future. The iconic LRBT has bolter sponsons and a hull lascannon. All of those are now useless.
Heavy vehicles should ignore the ordinance snap fire rule.

Oh, fun fact regarding rough riders. Seeing as that new weapon profile replaces the entire second paragraph, they get an extra attack on the charge for having two hand weapons. The lance is not a specialist weapon, so it counts as a second close combat weapon. 3 S5 I5 attacks each on the charge aint so shabby. Maybe theyll actually be proper glass cannons now.

Plus Mogul Kamir is now useful and should generally be taken with rough riders (rage and fearless for like 50 points (don't remember the exact value)) meaning they are getting an extra attack on the charge for 4 each, meaning about 41 str 5 initiative 5 AP3 attacks on the charge with Kamir. For extra lulz if you have Straken nearby you can boost their strength to 6.

Hmm might have to dust off my old rough rider project after all.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

My main problem with that is that I would never need that much AP 2. I have never thought to myself "You know what I am missing? 5 Plasma cannon shots in a single AV 14 vehicle for >200 points." I might end up taking another two vanquishers because I like their look but never had justification to take them over my demolishers however.

Mogul Kamir already gives Furious Charge, so Straken is not really needed. The problem is the pretty substantial points per T3/5+ wound.

Biophysical wrote:
Mogul Kamir already gives Furious Charge, so Straken is not really needed. The problem is the pretty substantial points per T3/5+ wound.

Considering that he brings 5 rough riders to be on equal if not better footing than 10 rough riders for 10 points less than 5 more rough riders added to a base squad I consider it a great deal. Especially considering that a squad of 10 under Kamir can wipe out a squad of almost anything with a 3+ save or less in a single turn (40 or so attacks that hit most things on a 4+ and wound most things on a 2+ (about 17 AP3 wounds per turn)).

*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

I believe they stack

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

Can someone link this FAQ for me pls? I cant seem to find it.

TheMicah25 wrote:
Can someone link this FAQ for me pls? I cant seem to find it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570044a_Imperial_Guard_v1.1.pdf

 Doomhunter wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

It would be 1d3+1 attacks on a charge. Cyber steed replaces the normal +1A on charge with a D3. Rage provides an extra +1 attack on the charge. 1d3+1

ah ok, that makes sense.

So getting back on topic from the rough riders, what setups do you guys see yourself taking for leman russes this edition, if you take them at all?

I'm looking at executioners, exterminators, and punishers now, as all seem like interesting ones to try out with the new changes. They can put out punishing amounts of fire while on the move now, especially the executioner and the punisher. Both can glance the heck out of lighter vehicles, which would allow me to focus on bringing my heavy antitank as lascannons for my infantry. Plus, all 3 of the tanks I mention annihilate most forms of infantry.

It's either that, or barebones russes with a bolter on them, because while I can see the appeal in a "2 weapon profile russ" I'd rather have a main battle cannon and secondary weapon that can take a hit from weapon destroyed. I want my lascannon, but I can think of almost no instance where I'd rather have 3 bolters to shoot instead. My russ should have something a battlecannon is good at shooting every turn, unlike bolters. Plus, other things in my army should be filling that role. I shouldn't have to buy some extra bolters on my russ when I should have so many autocannons it causes monstrous creatures to break out in hives.

My theories:

General Purpose MBT: Exterminator with 3x Heavy Bolterss (and a heavy stubber if I'm feeling fancy! They can shoot them again!)

Aggressive anti-hoard: Eradicator with 3x Heavy Flamers (gotta try it out. it might be too slow, or too hard to keep out of assaults to be useful)

Anti-Tank: Vanquisher -might- actually be somewhat useful, if you load it out with multimeltas and a lascannon. Drive it up to midfield, and with 3 'melta' shots and an LC, it should do all right as a dedicated tankhunter.

I still think Executioners are a bit overpriced, but I've honestly never used them much. Ditto for punisher (Got my freshly converted vulture for that).

LRBT and Demolisher.... man, iunno. I might have to put these on the backburner for now, and hope they FAQ something back in to fix them. I just loved those hull lascannons! They always did SOMETHING.

 McGibs wrote:
My theories:

General Purpose MBT: Exterminator with 3x Heavy Bolterss (and a heavy stubber if I'm feeling fancy! They can shoot them again!)

Aggressive anti-hoard: Eradicator with 3x Heavy Flamers (gotta try it out. it might be too slow, or too hard to keep out of assaults to be useful)

Anti-Tank: Vanquisher -might- actually be somewhat useful, if you load it out with multimeltas and a lascannon. Drive it up to midfield, and with 3 'melta' shots and an LC, it should do all right as a dedicated tankhunter.

I still think Executioners are a bit overpriced, but I've honestly never used them much. Ditto for punisher (Got my freshly converted vulture for that).

LRBT and Demolisher.... man, iunno. I might have to put these on the backburner for now, and hope they FAQ something back in to fix them. I just loved those hull lascannons! They always did SOMETHING.

Yep. I got to the point where I just started gluing them on, because I never wanted anything else. I pretty much considered Leman Russes 165pts, because I ALWAYS bought that lascannon.

I have a feeling they'll still be good, just no where near as awesome as they used to be, which is sad, because I love my Russes. They never let me down in 5th, or pre 1.1 6th.

I'm going to try 2 in a 1,000pts doubles list tomorrow and see what they do. If they can't wreck havoc in a low points game, there's no way they'll pull their weight at higher points where one would normally take them. If they don't work, I'll try exterminators and punishers, and see how they do. I have a feeling I'll just end up taking barebones russes in the end though...

You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS. This is actually rather intriguing. Especially since with an 18" melta threat range a pair of tanks with MM sponsons really stand a decent chance at being serious anti-flier.

I agree with biophysical, I think - a MM exterminator does seem rather interesting now.

1 in 3 to get a melta shot, which is bound to wreck pretty much any flier it hits... which means any sane player will jink. But that means they can only snap fire next turn. I'd take those odds.

Yeah. Not fantastic anti-flier, but it's not THAT shabby either. Especially when the MM has a 30" threat range without melta (but is still S8, and most importantly, still Ap1).

It would at least make your opponent think twice with where the fliers went.

Furthermore, I'm starting to see the best way of taking down fliers is fishing for a vehicle destroyed result rather than hoping to glance it to death through massed fire. Extremely small, anecdotal data set, but both fliers I've killed so far in 6th ed have been taking down by a vehicle destroyed result on a pen, not by glancing it to death.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS.

Hm. That does make things interesting. But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon and a TL vanquisher shot (assuming you buy the coax heavy stubber). That should get the job done against even heavy tanks or fortifications, and the main gun can still put holes in stuff from across the table if you need to.

It's just too bad the sponsons look so ugly or I'd be giving serious thought to an allied armored battlegroup with a MM/LC vanquisher HQ tank.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can now move 6" and fire both multimtlta sponsons at full BS.

Hm. That does make things interesting. But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon and a TL vanquisher shot (assuming you buy the coax heavy stubber). That should get the job done against even heavy tanks or fortifications, and the main gun can still put holes in stuff from across the table if you need to.

It's just too bad the sponsons look so ugly or I'd be giving serious thought to an allied armored battlegroup with a MM/LC vanquisher HQ tank.

My god, that tank would be the mother of all fire magnets though once your opponent figured out what it does.

Or, you play against greentide, and the ork player passes out from laughter.

Peregrine wrote:But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon

Hmm. 200 points for a multimelta+lascannon vanquisher? I spent that much on a bolter boat punisher to take down fliers.

Against a vendetta (assuming melta range, which isn't that terribly difficult to get), it would be throwing it out of the sky a bit shy of 1 in 5 times you shot it, with an average of .5 glances per turn.

Against an AV11 flier (because let's be honest, doomscythes), it blows it out of the sky halfway between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 for an average of roughly .66 glances a turn. Meanwhile, for the same price, the punisher throws down .8 glances per turn.

Hmm, the vanquisher definitely does better for the points. Of course, the main gun still really suffers from the lack of Ap1, which make it so that the multimeltas are really what do the killing here. It's almost enough to make me consider an exterminator or LRBT still (because the main gun isn't doing much anyways). It also seriously makes me reconsider the hull lascannon. 15 points for something that throws an AV11 flier down only once in every 28 times you shoot it. Seems like a hull heavy flamer so that it can do SOMETHING against hordes would be more useful.

180 or 185 points, though, isn't the worst way to bring a couple of multimeltas around. Russ chassis are so durable now that it might be worthwhile to take just this for anti-tank. I'd also note that against an AV11 flier, the vendetta is only twice as good, and against ground targets, it's even less distinct. They do get to fly around, but russes get AV14 and get to start the game on the board.

I might start actually considering this. If a pair of multimelta tanks can take down a flier every other turn, and do heavy lifting against other vehicular targets... Hmmm...

Don't forget fortifications. Nothing says "goodbye bastion" like driving a MM/LC vanquisher (preferably a BS 4 company command tank) up to point blank range and still getting to shoot all four guns at full BS.

And of course, like MrMoustaffa said, it seems like this would have the same psychological impact as the demolisher, especially if it blows away a vehicle to make its presence known. There are worse ideas than shoving an AV 14 bullet sponge down your opponent's throat and saying "stop it or die".

 McGibs wrote:
Eradicator with 3 heavy flamers. Hilarious anti-hoard flame tank?

I like the way this man thinks! I'd love to see this! haha

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:But if you're going full anti-tank, maybe the vanquisher looks a bit more appealing? The main gun is heavy, not ordnance, so that's a pair of multimeltas, a lascannon

Hmm. 200 points for a multimelta+lascannon vanquisher? I spent that much on a bolter boat punisher to take down fliers.

Against a vendetta (assuming melta range, which isn't that terribly difficult to get), it would be throwing it out of the sky a bit shy of 1 in 5 times you shot it, with an average of .5 glances per turn.

Against an AV11 flier (because let's be honest, doomscythes), it blows it out of the sky halfway between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 for an average of roughly .66 glances a turn. Meanwhile, for the same price, the punisher throws down .8 glances per turn.

Hmm, the vanquisher definitely does better for the points. Of course, the main gun still really suffers from the lack of Ap1, which make it so that the multimeltas are really what do the killing here. It's almost enough to make me consider an exterminator or LRBT still (because the main gun isn't doing much anyways). It also seriously makes me reconsider the hull lascannon. 15 points for something that throws an AV11 flier down only once in every 28 times you shoot it. Seems like a hull heavy flamer so that it can do SOMETHING against hordes would be more useful.

180 or 185 points, though, isn't the worst way to bring a couple of multimeltas around. Russ chassis are so durable now that it might be worthwhile to take just this for anti-tank. I'd also note that against an AV11 flier, the vendetta is only twice as good, and against ground targets, it's even less distinct. They do get to fly around, but russes get AV14 and get to start the game on the board.

I might start actually considering this. If a pair of multimelta tanks can take down a flier every other turn, and do heavy lifting against other vehicular targets... Hmmm...

I dunno. I still think the Vendetta outshines the MM Russ at killing flyers. At only 24in range, it is possible for your opponent to out maneuver your tanks and stay out of range for the most part. As for ground targets and the vendetta I have been thinking: grav chute some vets in from your zooming vendetta onto the field. Being able to grave chute from a flyer means you can cover a lot of ground and still shoot your vendetta. I really think grav chute now has a much better place here in 6th. Dangerous terrain tests aren't so bad anymore and the only way the unit is completely destroyed is if you mishap. I would keep the Russes to being a bolter boat and then take a devil dog with hull MM. That would cover your bases pretty nicely me thinks.

Also, does Pasks crack shot rule still work even when you move now that tanks are heavy?

Vendettas are still better, but they're not far and away better. Fliers have rather limited movement, and with a 30" threat range, it's not going to be very difficult to catch a flier in it.

Another thing to consider with this setup is to just take a demolisher. It can't fire at fliers, but it's better than the vanquisher at everything else. Plus, the range of the guns match.

And yes, pask just became more useful, but he didn't become any less expensive...

I don't know, doesn't it say that if the tank doesn't move he gets crack shot? Even though he's piloting a heavy vehicle, I don't think that affects special abilities and what not.

Oh, you're right. It's only stationary for the purposes of figuring out which weapons can fire. Outside of this, it counts as moving like normal.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I don't know, doesn't it say that if the tank doesn't move he gets crack shot? Even though he's piloting a heavy vehicle, I don't think that affects special abilities and what not.

"Provided Pask's tanks remains stationary during the movement phase, all shots made by Pask's Leman Russ that turn benefit from the Crack Shot rule." p. 58 Imperial Guard Codex


You can see my confusion. Does that mean you wouldn't get the crack shot rule regardless of being heavy?

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, you're right. It's only stationary for the purposes of figuring out which weapons can fire. Outside of this, it counts as moving like normal.

Ok that is what I thought.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
I still think the Vendetta outshines the MM Russ at killing flyers.

Oh, of course it is. But the question is how many Vendettas (or other AA flyers) do you want to invest in? It's an awesome unit of course but unless you're expecting to face true flyerspam there's definitely diminishing returns on flyers. Having too high a percentage of your army off the table becomes a serious liability, so it's worth considering ground units which can kill flyers (in addition to their normal non-flyer targets) as a supplement to your Vendettas/Thunderbolts/whatevers.

 Ailaros wrote:
Another thing to consider with this setup is to just take a demolisher. It can't fire at fliers, but it's better than the vanquisher at everything else. Plus, the range of the guns match.

Yeah, but then you have the problem of ordnance = snap fire again. If they'd done the right thing (which I hope they still will) and made the tank heavy but kept the part where the turret is in addition to all normal shooting multimelta sponsons on a demolisher would be awesome. But when firing the main gun means wasting the points you spent on sponsons and the hull gun it makes it a lot less appealing.

The vanquisher, on the other hand, doesn't suffer from this problem and can always fire everything (two multimeltas, hull gun, main gun, coax gun, pintile gun!) at full BS, which is why I proposed it as the multimelta carrier. If you want to roll up to point blank range and melta something, you might as well add a vanquisher round while you're at it.

Right now, the 3 I am looking at are:

Classic LRBT, I do not might it sitting back fielding launching those pies forwards. It is a sturdy piece of av14. But right now I am thinking artillery might replace it later one.

The Demolisher with MM and LC. I am liking that it can move and destroy with the MM and LC or move and fire the big gun and snap fire all the rest.

And a punisher wth HB's all around. Lots of Str5 shots moving around the table. I have plenty of Str 7 with all of the autocannons in case I meet something tough.

Overall I am disappointed with the changes to the russ. The thing is supposed to move and fire everything, can we not get that gw? I feel like we will be getting this shortly. It took 2 months to get new FAQ's, hopefully we will get this slight, minor detail fixed in a few weeks. Until then, I know I will be looking at artillery options now to replace what my russes did along with more aggressive IS's

Peregrine wrote:It's an awesome unit of course but unless you're expecting to face true flyerspam there's definitely diminishing returns on flyers. Having too high a percentage of your army off the table becomes a serious liability, so it's worth considering ground units which can kill flyers (in addition to their normal non-flyer targets) as a supplement to your Vendettas/Thunderbolts/whatevers.

Also, another small note, the tanks have searchlights, so screw night fighting missions.

Peregrine wrote:Yeah, but then you have the problem of ordnance = snap fire again.

But the vanquisher cannon isn't doing much to fliers anyways. What does most of the lifting is the multimeltas.

I suppose a demolisher may not be the right choice. It would make sense to have a gun that is VERY different. Perhaps a MM punisher, or an MM LRBT. Something where the main gun really is a secondary weapon for those things that MMs aren't good against.

Point taken. In that case it just depends on point level and what to expect. Though if that is the case then I would rather run the exterminator. More shots = more chances to hit. TL to top it off. Throw Pask in there, and you've got a pretty potent unit so long as you sit still. It kinda just boils down to the environment. If you know what to expect and you deployed well, then you shouldn't have to move every turn. Having 4 TL Str 8 shots + w/e else at a flier, tank, or MC I can see as pretty damaging. I'm just not sure how I feel about the vanquisher. It seems too much geared toward anti-vehicle. Yeah sure it is gonna mess things up, but what happens when you run into some hordes? I would want some large blasts in there somewhere, and our tanks are the best things for those exact situations. Maybe run 2-3 russes, 1 of them being the vanquisher? Still, I feel the devil dog would fit a similarly effective role towards ground targets and it is a bit cheaper albeit more lightly armored. You take the good, you take the bad I suppose.

But the vanquisher cannon isn't doing much to fliers anyways. What does most of the lifting is the multimeltas.

Not to flyers, to ground units. If you're going to take a tank as an AV 14 melta platform and be willing to get close to stuff, don't you want to fire everything and make sure it's dead? With the demolisher you have to choose, and you always have points sitting idle no matter which choice you make. IMO this means taking one of the tanks with a heavy weapon for the main gun. With the vanquisher your main gun has a lot of synergy with the multimeltas, so I think it beats the exterminator's anti-light-vehicle main gun in that role.

With the demolisher, I'd rather just run it with no upgrades and demolish stuff. I can't think of many situations where I wouldn't want to fire the demolisher cannon, and I can't really justify spending points on snap fire weapons for a unit that's going to draw every anti-tank weapon in my opponent's army until it dies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
I'm just not sure how I feel about the vanquisher. It seems too much geared toward anti-vehicle. Yeah sure it is gonna mess things up, but what happens when you run into some hordes?

That's the risk of running dedicated anti-tank (just like the risk of taking Vendettas, for example). The solution is to make sure you have anti-horde firepower in other slots: Griffons/Manticores, Hellhounds, etc.

Still, I feel the devil dog would fit a similarly effective role towards ground targets and it is a bit cheaper albeit more lightly armored. You take the good, you take the bad I suppose.

The Devil Dog isn't bad, but, as you said, AV 12 is a weakness. AV 14 is awesome for making sure your tank will survive to do its job, or at least soak up a substantial amount of fire before it goes down. The Devil Dog seems like more of a one-shot suicide weapon, it's good while it lasts but don't expect it to be around for long. Just consider it like the difference between the Leman Russ and Basilisk: there are times when the cheaper pie plate is appealing, but there are also a lot of times when you're very happy to spend points on AV 14.

Agreed. I think it does just boil down to synergy. IG have a lot of scary things at their disposal. It's all about how you supplement those scary things, how well they play off each other, and forcing your opponent to either split his focus or target one thing at a time. I've actually had some great luck with the devil dog though. Had some poor grey knights deepstrike in to kill some troops, and I direct hit my blast to kill all but one. It was glorious. Just the amount of speed it has compared to the russ is another positive. But yes, you sacrifice durability for speed/maneuverability. I'd love to see how well an all ground list would do. Hellhound and Russ chasis. That would be a beautiful sight.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
All I know is, now I want to try an executioner with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon. I don't care if it's almost 250pts, that tank just makes me happy with the thought of all that AP 2 it'll put out.

And before you start crying "IT'LL GLANCE ITSELF TO DEATH A:LSFJ:SLDJF:SLDJF:L" It's only got a 1 in 2 chance of glancing itself every time it fires it's 5 plasma cannon shots. It also has a 1 in 2 shot of saving that glance. Meaning that only 1 out of 4 turns you'll glance yourself on average.

For that much AP 2 and firepower, it's really not that big of a deal. Plus, it just looks fun. I can't wait to try a bolter boat punisher now as well. But I will weep for Lumbering Behemoth. That was probably my favorite rule in the entire IG codex. It made your basic leman Russ an extremely flexible tank. Now, all you buy it for is the battlecannon, and some heavy bolters that *might* be useful...

Do it. I have. After a few games with it you'll suddenly start getting a 2+ dead-zone around it

Although, you may not need a Vendetta depending on how many Chimeras/HWS you already have.

What bugs me about the fact is I sincerely think GW was trying to make the tank better. I mean, they're letting us fire EVERYTHING at normal BS now, that could not have been an intentional nerf. I wonder if they'll bring it back for the LRMBT and the Demolisher. Then all the tanks would be really hard to pick from (except the eradicator of course ) I mean, you'd have a good reason to take any tank on the variants list then. They would all have a strong role, and it would've been awesome.

I just don't think they gave a thought about why Lumbering Behemoth is there for. We could care less about the movement rules. What we cared about was being able to fire a second weapon on the ordnance russes. AKA my precious lascannons.

I'm going to be trying a few of the non ordnance russes and we'll see how they do. Not really sure to expect since the rules for the tank have changed so much...

Well, time to put pask in a heavy bolter boat and give him that punisher cannon. It will be interesting, to say the least, and It'll give me an excuse to try the non-ordinance russes.

Still, that 15 point lasconnon has helped a lot, from stuff as little as putting another glance on a vehicle to letting the tank engage terminators and other 2+ elite infantry when there was nothing else to shoot at. I suppose this gives the vanquisher new life, but I'd honestly rather have lumbering behemoth back.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So getting back on topic from the rough riders, what setups do you guys see yourself taking for leman russes this edition, if you take them at all?

I'm looking at executioners, exterminators, and punishers now, as all seem like interesting ones to try out with the new changes. They can put out punishing amounts of fire while on the move now, especially the executioner and the punisher. Both can glance the heck out of lighter vehicles, which would allow me to focus on bringing my heavy antitank as lascannons for my infantry. Plus, all 3 of the tanks I mention annihilate most forms of infantry.

It's either that, or barebones russes with a bolter on them, because while I can see the appeal in a "2 weapon profile russ" I'd rather have a main battle cannon and secondary weapon that can take a hit from weapon destroyed. I want my lascannon, but I can think of almost no instance where I'd rather have 3 bolters to shoot instead. My russ should have something a battlecannon is good at shooting every turn, unlike bolters. Plus, other things in my army should be filling that role. I shouldn't have to buy some extra bolters on my russ when I should have so many autocannons it causes monstrous creatures to break out in hives.

Honestly I see myself abandoning demolishers in favour of cheaper Vanquishers for AT purposes, might slap a lascannon on them and make them 5 points more expensive, but they fill a useful role of long-range anti-vehicle work. Besides, it isn't as if I don't have enough AP 2 already, I have like 16 plasma guns and a good number of plasma pistols at 2000 points. Every squad has at least one plasma weapon. Not to mention that I run 2 full sized storm trooper squads as mechanized squads to molest the enemy as they advance (whether or not you consider their AP 3 guns useful, they are a good way to draw fire) and have a few meltaguns. I think long range tank killing is far more useful for me than some AP 2 pie plates.

The Exterminator and Executioner both got very significant buffs. I've never been a fan of pie plate Russes anyway really, they're too unreliable for my tastes.

Buttons wrote:

Honestly I see myself abandoning demolishers in favour of cheaper Vanquishers for AT purposes, might slap a lascannon on them and make them 5 points more expensive, but they fill a useful role of long-range anti-vehicle work. Besides, it isn't as if I don't have enough AP 2 already, I have like 16 plasma guns and a good number of plasma pistols at 2000 points. Every squad has at least one plasma weapon. Not to mention that I run 2 full sized storm trooper squads as mechanized squads to molest the enemy as they advance (whether or not you consider their AP 3 guns useful, they are a good way to draw fire) and have a few meltaguns. I think long range tank killing is far more useful for me than some AP 2 pie plates.

Then I think you need a Medusa with ECC and BBS. It is a much better long range AT selection. The Vanquisher is only good for the "the LR is Heavy YAY!" topic as it can also benefit from it. But as a dedicated long-range AT weapon, it is still forgettable.

But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

This hasn't changed my use of LRBT's at all. Two vanilla and one demolisher.

Blast templates are brilliant in 6ed, shooting is more common, foot is more common and backfields can be deeper. Plus I need str10 pies and a demolisher just shines here.

Cheap, cheerful - my points go elsewhere. I never bought the tanks for their hull weaponry, I've only ever used them for their primary's.

Glocknall wrote:

 Doomhunter wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
*continuing to derail this into horsie territory*

What does Morguls cyber steed do now? Rage would give him +2 attacks on the charge, but cyber steed gives him +D3 attacks instead? So he could roll only +1 attack on the charge.

maybe his robot horse is rusty...

What if its D3+2 attacks?

Oh, can we get back to tanks now?

It would be 1d3+1 attacks on a charge. Cyber steed replaces the normal +1A on charge with a D3. Rage provides an extra +1 attack on the charge. 1d3+1

Sorry to go a little off topic (again).
Ragnar Blackmain has the exact same thing, +D3 charge bonus and a +2 charge bonus. These don't stack, but give a +D3 bonus with a minimum of 2

Q: How does Ragnar Blackmane’s Insane Bravado bonus interact with Berserk Charge? (p55)
A: The unit would gain +D3 Attacks when it charges, with a minimum of +2 (as this is the minimum bonus conferred by the Berserk Charge special rule) – these effects do not stack.

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

i think it doesnt ruin the pie plates, as much as i think it forces versatility into the heavy slot. Im thinking of running 2 units of 2 Russes. One naked demolisher and one LC/HB Exterminatorin each group, that way whatever target i hit will be utterly annihilated, making it good for anti infantry and anti-tank (the demo doing the heavy work and the exterminator shaving off hull points). The only problem i can think of is that the Demo is going to be a bit wasted if i fire at a flyer.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

Ah, but the Vanquisher has 4 (5 if you take a HK) weapons that can all be fired at once. Plus it has a smaller chance of loosing it's main armament. And even if it does, it is still a reasonably fearsome threat to armour. The Medusa can only lose 1 weapon before it is no longer a threat.

 The Crusader wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 The Crusader wrote:
But the Medusa has a shorter range and depending on the size of the target vehicle, could miss completely. Plus it isn't as well armoured as the Vanquisher....

But it is faster (so it can position itself better), has a much stronger main weapon, smaller in size (easier cover) and can hit multiple targets (making it a decent MEQ/TEQ hunter too). And it can instagib T5 stuff too. And the Vanquisher can also miss completely even more so than the Medusa.

Ah, but the Vanquisher has 4 (5 if you take a HK) weapons that can all be fired at once. Plus it has a smaller chance of loosing it's main armament. And even if it does, it is still a reasonably fearsome threat to armour. The Medusa can only lose 1 weapon before it is no longer a threat.

I try not to worry about weapon destroyed as much as i used to, because more often than not for me a tank is dead from glances long before it ever had a chance to lose its weapon, and even when it did whatever popped a weapon off was close enough to finish the job

Yeah, so the executioner with plasma sponsons and a lascannon is just as hilarious as I thought it would be. I got unlucky and lost one first turn, but I'll definitely be playing with them some more. They're just brutal against anything but heavy armor.

Other than that, exterminators are about to get a try again, although I'm unsure how I'm going to kit them out at the moment.

I think for this monday I'm going to replace my hydras and primaris with a pair of exterminators. No hull lascannon - I'm wanting the points for try #2 of harker (this time with outflank sauce), but were I to drop the special character, they'd definitely get them.

Apart from the turret and hull heavy bolter, I'm going to try out the sponson multimeltas. Yeah, the hydras put down 7 more S7 hits, but the exterminator puts down 2/3ds of a S8 Melta Ap1 hit. Not THAT much worse against AV11 fliers (and especially not AV12), while also being able to do, well, anything when fliers aren't present.

We'll see how it goes, though.

I was planning on running two LRBT with HF and a bolter boat paskterminator for adepticon. Not sure if I will still run those LRBTs...

I second the executioner with plasma sponsons. MEQs run rampant at my FLGS and the executioner helps me bring enough plasma to poop on their parade

I tired out the punisher with bolters and pask in a 2000 point game against a swarmy tyranid army. It made up its expensive point cost in gaunts. Yeah, Pask mowed down at least 255 points of gaunts. Even if he hadn't made his points back, I still would run him again. Pask is excellent at supplementing the gunline. He kept the swarms off my gunline so my heavy weapons and other units could fire at what they were most effective against longer, instead of getting charged turn 3 or 4 and loosing in close combat. 29 str 5 shots is nothing to sneeze at. A normal battlecannon, could only take out 9 or so guants a turn under the template (and much, much less if my opponent spread them out), whereas punisher Pask wiped a 30 'nid gaunt squad turn after consecutive turn.

The next game was against eldar, and it wasn't nearly as useful. It mopped up some infantry squads and took out few AV 10 scatterlaser walkers thingys. The extra firepower while moving was nice. It allowed it to get in range a few times, but it wasn't supported by enough infantry and died soon enough. It did keep the heat off of my more valuable units, such as the CCS or my other few chimeras.


I think the punisher was worith it, although I've yet to try it on any MEQ armies.

I used the Executioner yesterday and got great results with it. It placed horrendous amounts of Plasma down on some GKs. By turn 4 they were actively avoiding it, best part was I could move to follow with the new heavy change.

I think IG on the whole got stronger with this change. You can still get your demolisher cannons and battle cannon shot through artillery tanks at a cheaper cost and your russes can support assaults much more effectively.

I'm happy with the change. I do acknowledge the side affects as well. This is how I'd run each Russ. Keep in mind I've retired from tourney play. I'm not sure any Russ is WAAC, but these are my fun and effective patterns

Battle tank is probably going to be hull HB. By keeping it cheap I am pretty vulnerable to a weapon destroyed, I can absolutely see running sponson heavy bolters for that reason.

Demolisher hull lascannon. If you can't go flat out with a heavy vehicle than you might as well have a reasonable weapon to fire when the big gun is out of range. This was a tough one, this tank was probably hit hardest by the change

Exterminator. I think hull and sponson heavy bolters. Now that transports aren't a real problem anymore, I'm much more interested in matching AP than strength. I used to love the plasma sponsons on this one though.

Executioner. How good is this one now? Plasma sponsons and hull lascannon for sure. I think this version made out like a bandit in the change.

Vanquisher. Hull lascannon sponson multimeltas. This change essentially added 6" range to multimeltas. If you want cheap long range tank kill, don't take a Russ.

Punisher hull and sponson heavy bolters... This should be no surprise.

Eradicator. This guy just has to be hull and sponson heavy flamers. I don't know if I'd ever build this, because you can get a couple of really good cover-busting tanks in fast attack. But that is sheer comedy on light infantry.


I really like the discussion so far, particularly about the idea of not always being so locked into firing ordnance. There is a good chance that you guys could convince me to add multimeltas to the demolisher. Weapon destroyed, proximity to friendlies, and just adding the snapshots to my firepower. To me the Russ isn't about efficiency, the fun way to play it is as a very survivable brick with many devastating guns on it.

I would still opt for the plasma sponsons on the Exterminator though. Being able to cover more bases (literally and figuratively) is always a nice thing to have. As for the Demo, I would agree with some of the others on here and keep her with multi-melta sponsons with the hull HB. Sure you might be out of range for a turn, but that is why we have the smoke. I would rather pop smoke with the Demo and preserve it's life than chance 1 BS 3 shot to potentially do nothing.

All I know is, after bringing an executioner to just one game yesterday, people at my store are actively dreading seeing it again. I've never seen Marine players freak out quite like they did when they saw that thing fire first turn

I think I'll be using them for a while and seeing how they do. Yes, they're obscenely expensive, but they're also incredibly destructive. Every game I've had afterwards that I didn't use them I've found myself wishing I had it. I really think it's got potential to be a heavy hitter now.

Haven't tried the punisher and exterminator after 1.1, so they're next on the list. I'm hearing positive things about them as well though.

Just played a game with this change, and it really hurt the demolisher. My opponent deployed at the opposite end of the table from mine and it spent three full turns moving 6" closer before it finally got to shoot. Granted, this was low model count GK and another army might have had closer targets to shoot at, but I can easily see how the loss of D6+6" movement each turn can draw out what would normally be just a single turn of wasted shooting. And of course the demolisher gets nothing in exchange for this crippling, it's purely a loss, and a pointless one.

Yeah, I suppose a demolisher would be particularly badly hurt by this.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, I suppose a demolisher would be particularly badly hurt by this.

WIll this mean a new era for the Medusa for getting Str 10 anti tank downrange?

sure, but why bother? There are other ways to handle tanks.

140 points for a rather flimsy single long-range melta shot a turn? You might as well spend the extra 15 points for the AV14 upgrade to vanquisher.

generalchaos34 wrote:
WIll this mean a new era for the Medusa for getting Str 10 anti tank downrange?

Or does it mean that both vehicles have too many drawbacks, and AP 2 needs to come from elsewhere in the FOC? The last few games I've used one of each, and I'm not sure. Before the latest FAQ I was getting kind of disappointed in the Medusa, with only AV 12 it just wasn't living long enough. Sure, getting a better shot turn 1 was nice (if you don't go second and lose it), but the demolisher seemed to do more damage over the entire game thanks to AV 14 keeping it alive. Making the demolisher worse doesn't change these problems, so maybe the end result is just that neither vehicle is very consistent, and you have to decide whether the raw power when it works is worth the games where it doesn't do anything?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
sure, but why bother? There are other ways to handle tanks.

IMO, the Medusa is for anti-terminator/MEQ, not for anti-tank. It's nice to have STR 10 ordnance around when you need a tank killed, but the real reason for the pie plates (on either tank) is to make paladins/TWC/etc cry, especially now that the rules have shifted in favor of 2+ saves.

The only reason I'd ever consider taking the BBS "upgrade" is when I'm really worried about a fortification and need it killed ASAP. The size of the target model combined with STR 10 + 2D6 almost ensures a penetrating hit, and AP 1 makes it hurt. But this is a pretty narrow role, and I don't foresee it being a frequent part of my list.

It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though.

Huh? The Medusa's standard gun is ordnance. It only loses the ordnance rule and becomes heavy when you take the BBS upgrade.

Considering the massive amount of damage the Plasma tank can dish out and it can now fire 5 templates on the run rather than 4 I'd say the Battle Tank got nerfed, hoping for an errata (again).

Its an interesting change, and what I like about it is that it encourages players to take different Leman Russ variants. I think i'd probably take an Exterminator with all bolters in an all-comers list. Twin linking helps overcome the anemic BS3, and the volume of heavy bolters can find a variety of targets.

The Vanquisher seems interesting now too. Its only 5pts more than a vanilla russ, and kitting it with a lascannon/multimelta sponsons you have a lot of tank killing weapons on the move.

 Peregrine wrote:
Just played a game with this change, and it really hurt the demolisher. My opponent deployed at the opposite end of the table from mine and it spent three full turns moving 6" closer before it finally got to shoot. Granted, this was low model count GK and another army might have had closer targets to shoot at, but I can easily see how the loss of D6+6" movement each turn can draw out what would normally be just a single turn of wasted shooting. And of course the demolisher gets nothing in exchange for this crippling, it's purely a loss, and a pointless one.

Actually, it doesn't hurt the Demolisher that much, at least the way I run it. You should have had a lascannon on there, since in many games you can't fire the cannon the first couple of turns anyway.

I played a game over the weekend with my usual LRBT with HB sponsons, and I decided I am going to leave them on there. I like the increased chance of the Weapon Destroyed roll not killing me. And there are times in games where I don't want to fire the cannon, especially late game when I am firing on an enemy that is close to one of my positions. Now, I can use all my bolters at full BS while moving to get in to position and help with assault.

I'm going to try some Exterminators too. The Executioner is just too expensive for my Guard philosophy of making sure that losing a unit doesn't destroy my strategy.

bb

 Ailaros wrote:
Unless, of course, they're a non-ordnance russ, which can now move 6" and fire everything at full BS.

This....

I think that 6th edition will favor non-ordnance russ' as gun platforms and ordnance russ' will be bare bones.

The issue with the ordnance Russes is that for both the BT and Demo you can get a superior weapon on a cheaper artillery platform

Im going with Glocknalls thinking. I'm going to try swapping out my BTs for a pair of basilisks. They can hide behind cover and rain down pie plates. Anything within the 36" min. range limit can be handled by either the exterminator or the executioner, other options in the codex.

Glocknall wrote:
The issue with the ordnance Russes is that for both the BT and Demo you can get a superior weapon on a cheaper artillery platform

Comparing tanks to artillery is apples to oranges. They play a different role in any list you write. Artillery has its uses, but the issue you describe simply doesn't exist.

bb

There is a big difference between AV 12 open topped basalisks and an AV 14 tank. AV 14 at range is very hard to dislodge.

 labmouse42 wrote:
There is a big difference between AV 12 open topped basalisks and an AV 14 tank. AV 14 at range is very hard to dislodge.

Does that really matter anymore with Necrons being so prominent, all they have to do is glance the thing to death (both the Basilisk and the LRBT). Dark Eldar seem to be pretty popular but they sport a load of lance weaponry so that 14 is less efficient, space marines will melta you if given the chance (most likely on the side or rear at which point the LRBT is only slightly harder to take out). The armies that I think will have the hardest time with the LRBT's 14 are probably the armies that are not being played as heavily right now.

Not that my opinion matters, but I am on the side of the fence that is scratching their heads and wondering wtf GW is thinking. Lumbering Behemoth was iconic for the LRBT, now we have heavy, which makes everything BUT the battle tank even more efficient and makes the LRBT over-cost and almost not worth it to upgrade aside from the 'random roll' for weapon destroyed but with Hull Points now incorporated it doesn't make 'that' much of a difference.

Well now the exterminator, executioner, and punisher are top tier units.

I'm actually leaning more towards an executioner with 3 hb. The effect of an executioner on meq players is excessive firepower directed at it and meq hiding in cover until it's dead. The extra 2 plasma cannons won't make much of a difference. To unitss caught in the open, and they can overheat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The nova cannon just went from zero to hero. It's not ordinance. Add 2 plasma cannons and it's only 200 points. The nova cannon will kill troops dependent on cover, and the plasma for those that have armor.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Well now the exterminator, executioner, and punisher are top tier units.

I'm actually leaning more towards an executioner with 3 hb. The effect of an executioner on meq players is excessive firepower directed at it and meq hiding in cover until it's dead. The extra 2 plasma cannons won't make much of a difference. To unitss caught in the open, and they can overheat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The nova cannon just went from zero to hero. It's not ordinance. Add 2 plasma cannons and it's only 200 points. The nova cannon will kill troops dependent on cover, and the plasma for those that have armor.

Now all we need it to have is rules for its sponsons to be allowed to shoot at different targets.

Though I like your idea for the eradicator. Makes me want to run two Exterminators with Plasma sponsons and your eradicator.

On phone, so cannot look at faqs, but the plasma sponsons still get hot on anything lower than a three, correct? Wouldn't this drastically decrease their life span with 3 hps?

Oh christ... heavy flamers that can always fire...

 UMGuy wrote:
On phone, so cannot look at faqs, but the plasma sponsons still get hot on anything lower than a three, correct? Wouldn't this drastically decrease their life span with 3 hps?

Nope. They get hot on a 1, but vehicles have a 4+ save (effectively) against their overheats.

Lascannons on demolishers were an add-on. The Demolisher hasn't lost anything relevant in this change, just keep the HB.

 UMGuy wrote:
On phone, so cannot look at faqs, but the plasma sponsons still get hot on anything lower than a three, correct? Wouldn't this drastically decrease their life span with 3 hps?

You roll before firing each weapon with the 'Gets Hot' rule, if you roll a '1' you get hot, the on a 'further roll of a 1,2, or 3, the vehicle takes a glancing hit."

 Testify wrote:
Lascannons on demolishers were an add-on. The Demolisher hasn't lost anything relevant in this change, just keep the HB.

Besides the ability to use a lascannon (which is not a trivial thing), the demolisher suffered a major loss in its shorter maximum movement distance. Limiting it to 6" per turn instead of D6+12" (or even the D6"+6 of 5th) means it takes a lot longer to get into range if there aren't any targets within 24", and the new deployment types make it even easier for this to happen.

 beerbeard wrote:
Actually, it doesn't hurt the Demolisher that much, at least the way I run it. You should have had a lascannon on there, since in many games you can't fire the cannon the first couple of turns anyway.

It had a lascannon on it, but a single BS 3 lascannon for 180 points is horrible. Before the latest change if you were out of range you'd almost always want to move the maximum distance and give up firing the hull gun so you could get into range asap for the main gun (the reason you bought the tank). And of course to add insult to injury you can't even use the lascannon once you do get into range to fire the main gun!

Peregrine wrote:Before the latest change if you were out of range you'd almost always want to move the maximum distance and give up firing the hull gun so you could get into range asap for the main gun (the reason you bought the tank).

Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

 Jstncloud wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
There is a big difference between AV 12 open topped basalisks and an AV 14 tank. AV 14 at range is very hard to dislodge.

Does that really matter anymore with Necrons being so prominent, all they have to do is glance the thing to death (both the Basilisk and the LRBT). Dark Eldar seem to be pretty popular but they sport a load of lance weaponry so that 14 is less efficient, space marines will melta you if given the chance (most likely on the side or rear at which point the LRBT is only slightly harder to take out). The armies that I think will have the hardest time with the LRBT's 14 are probably the armies that are not being played as heavily right now.

Not that my opinion matters, but I am on the side of the fence that is scratching their heads and wondering wtf GW is thinking. Lumbering Behemoth was iconic for the LRBT, now we have heavy, which makes everything BUT the battle tank even more efficient and makes the LRBT over-cost and almost not worth it to upgrade aside from the 'random roll' for weapon destroyed but with Hull Points now incorporated it doesn't make 'that' much of a difference.

That's why he said "at range". A lot of things can kill them in the 24" and under range. Not much can kill them past that. You ever tried killing a leman russ with cover from across the board? It aint easy. That's the durability he's talking about. Plus, any halfway sane IG commander should be screening his tanks with infantry to make sure that melta weapons aren't just walking up to the tank or deepstriking next to it.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
There is a big difference between AV 12 open topped basalisks and an AV 14 tank. AV 14 at range is very hard to dislodge.

Does that really matter anymore with Necrons being so prominent, all they have to do is glance the thing to death (both the Basilisk and the LRBT). Dark Eldar seem to be pretty popular but they sport a load of lance weaponry so that 14 is less efficient, space marines will melta you if given the chance (most likely on the side or rear at which point the LRBT is only slightly harder to take out). The armies that I think will have the hardest time with the LRBT's 14 are probably the armies that are not being played as heavily right now.

Not that my opinion matters, but I am on the side of the fence that is scratching their heads and wondering wtf GW is thinking. Lumbering Behemoth was iconic for the LRBT, now we have heavy, which makes everything BUT the battle tank even more efficient and makes the LRBT over-cost and almost not worth it to upgrade aside from the 'random roll' for weapon destroyed but with Hull Points now incorporated it doesn't make 'that' much of a difference.

That's why he said "at range". A lot of things can kill them in the 24" and under range. Not much can kill them past that. You ever tried killing a leman russ with cover from across the board? It aint easy. That's the durability he's talking about. Plus, any halfway sane IG commander should be screening his tanks with infantry to make sure that melta weapons aren't just walking up to the tank or deepstriking next to it.

What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

Maybe tau, but even they have Melta Options and their long range option (str 10 ap 1) is pretty efficient.

My point is, the tank is not cost efficient anymore when you take away the Battle Tank's firing capabilities. Prior to this FAQ my group agreed to use the Lumbering Behemoth the way it used to work (but with 6th ed logic, IE: you could fire the main cannon if you moved in addition to the other weapons you were allowed to fire. This we assumed would mean one hull/sponson weapon at pure BS, one turret weapon at pure BS, and the rest were snap shots, it honestly made sense). Giving the Russ heavy seems logical but not re-wording Lumbering Behemoth along with the heavy status means one variant (Battle Cannon) is nearly useless for those of us who have already modeled our tanks with side sponsons, and that is also a point I was trying to make. Vehicles now can easily be dispatched, so simply saying "Errr, the side sponsons make weapon destroyed results less painful" is absurd, the fact is if your opponent focus their fire on the tank they will be very likely not to stop until it is gone anyways, so why make it cost more points than it is currently worth.

This update just doesnt seem right, lascannons seem pointless on the tanks now, and the bolters will rarely hit, maybe once if that. The rules for weapon destroyed being random was nice for the battle cannon and demolisher but now that sponsons are useless your main cannon is easier to loose again because whose gunna spend 20+ points for sponsons that might make your cannon more survivable. Maybe heavy vehicles will get the update of being able to fire all weapons at normal bs, sounds reasonable. thankfully i have 2 russes with sponsons and 2 without seeing as i wont be using the ones with them anymore. having 6 battle tanks sucks now, guess its time to break some turrets to make punishers and eradicators lol.

I agree about the sponsons thing, I still don't see the sanity in paying another 20pts just to try and minimize the damage of a result you'll only see if you get a pen. And even then, if you're getting penned, the tank is probably dead anyways. The having 9 heavy bolter shots for a single remaining model makes a little bit, but I would hope you're able to have more than just a russ live to the end of a game.

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

Sure.

You used the phrase "almost always", which implied that you think it was "almost never" a good idea to sit and shoot the lascannon over moving and shooting the demolisher cannon. "Almost never" strikes me as way too harsh.

Generally speaking, on turn 1 (and maybe 2) of most games, it would make sense to shoot the lascannon, with the demolisher only really shining turns 3 until whenever it was killed. It was more like every game you'd have at least a turn where it would make sense, rather than practically never.

In my experience it was strongly in favor of moving to position for a better shot next turn, especially before smoke saves were reduced to 5+. Even if, in some cases, that movement was sideways to gain better cover and/or deny cover to where I think I want to shoot next turn, it was usually more appealing than taking a single BS 3 lascannon shot. After all, god, in his almighty wisdom, gave us Vendettas at 130 points each to carry our lascannons, and who am I to argue with the omniscient?

Of course I'd also tend to disagree with "best turn 3 and later", since I like my demolishers aggressively moving up to demolish things ASAP and draw fire from the squishy mech vets behind them. If I have to wait until turn 3 to get an effective shot, I'll just take a Medusa and get my pie plate on the first turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

So for tread heads that want multiple LRBT perhaps the best ally would be GK for access to Coteaz and strikes. Nothing like warp quake and Coteaz casting divination on a 5 man purifier squad he joined to repulse the deep striking melta.

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

 schadenfreude wrote:

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

Yeah go ahead and post it. I've got exterminator cannons just fine (ordered a couple before the change) but I'd love to see your executioner conversion. I've got some plasma cannons I thought about using for it by making something like twin linked plasma cannons on the turret, but i'm sure your idea would look a lot better

tankboy145 wrote:
This update just doesnt seem right, lascannons seem pointless on the tanks now, and the bolters will rarely hit, maybe once if that. The rules for weapon destroyed being random was nice for the battle cannon and demolisher but now that sponsons are useless your main cannon is easier to loose again because whose gunna spend 20+ points for sponsons that might make your cannon more survivable. Maybe heavy vehicles will get the update of being able to fire all weapons at normal bs, sounds reasonable. thankfully i have 2 russes with sponsons and 2 without seeing as i wont be using the ones with them anymore. having 6 battle tanks sucks now, guess its time to break some turrets to make punishers and eradicators lol.

I am honestly hoping for another FAQ, just doesn't seem reasonable imo, having the heavy trait is great but I'd rather they say something like "Change Lumbering Behemoth to: "...vehicle has the Heavy Special Rule, In addition vehicles with Lumbering Behemoth may fire all weapons (when not shaken/stunned) at full ballistic skill..."

Something like that, rather than remove the special rule altogether just change the wording or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

So for tread heads that want multiple LRBT perhaps the best ally would be GK for access to Coteaz and strikes. Nothing like warp quake and Coteaz casting divination on a 5 man purifier squad he joined to repulse the deep striking melta.

I run my IG with Blood Angels as allies, Camo Netting (72inch range, hardly moving), and a Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius. 4+ cover save. (Chimeras with Las cannon veterans inside outfitted the same way). Not to mention with the ease of night fighting happening, nothing like a massive cover save on the night fighting turn(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

Yeah go ahead and post it. I've got exterminator cannons just fine (ordered a couple before the change) but I'd love to see your executioner conversion. I've got some plasma cannons I thought about using for it by making something like twin linked plasma cannons on the turret, but i'm sure your idea would look a lot better

I've got 2 (still in the bag) FW LR Plasma Turrets, pm me if you are at all interested.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

 Jstncloud wrote:
My point is, the tank is not cost efficient anymore when you take away the Battle Tank's firing capabilities

On this we can agree to disagree. The value of the LRBT is how hard it is to dislodge at range. Even a Tau Broadside only has a 22% to take off a hull point of a LRBT sitting behind an aegis line, and only has a ~5% chance of destroying the LRBT. Those are not good odds, and that's a ranged weapon designed to do such a thing!

There are one of two types of LR configs your going to see under this current FAQ.
Bare Bones LRBT (or demolisher)
This tank will sit back behind an aegis line and throw out a battle cannon shot every round. Given the increase of foot infantry in the meta, having battle cannon blasts has excellent applications. This tank runs you 150 points. In comparison you could buy a manticore for a few more points, which has more firepower but is much easier to dislodge at range.

Lumbering Gun Platform LR
This version will be a platform maximizing the 'heavy' rule of the LR. This would be a punisher with HB/PC sponsons, or an excecutioner with PC sponsons. These tanks are more expensive, but deliver a lot of mobile firepower.

In both these examples, the value of the LR is the durability of the unit. Your trading firepower for toughness.
Is it the best solution? Well, that depends on your local meta. Is it a valid option? Yes.

I think it's a solid buff all around. Obviously it makes the sponsons that much more useful since you can position the LR to fire them at max efficiency each turn.

Another added benefit is that you can also position the front armor against incoming threats and still fire to full effect as well.

I think the LRMBT with HB sponsons is a great value still, those 9 S5 shots are more useful than a lot of people give them credit for against heavy infantry, which is the main prey of the Battlecannon

I'm very happy that the Executioner can now move and fire all plasma cannons, hull points be damned!

I agree. The value of the russ is knowing it will still be around until your opponent tries to get close. In that respect, the Standard Russ is still good at throwing out templates from the base, and the demolisher may still have a role as a heavily armored support. Sure, the standard russ got a little worse, but it'll be interesting to see a variety of tanks on the board again.

Speaking of variety,
I'm finding the punisher w/ pask and and bolter sponsons to be marvelous at supporting the gunline. While it shines against swarms, The volume of Str 5 shots it puts out at BS 4 can put the hurt on elite units. "That 2+ save is nice, now make it 18 of 'em."


I'd also like to see the executioner conversion

I think I'll be buying the executioner/demolisher/punisher box for the lol's. This will be my 6th russ!

 Kain wrote:

there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I was looking at the conqueror, but it seems pretty lackluster. Remember, it doesn't get lumbering-behemoth, and therefore is not heavy either. That means it's even less manoeuvrable than a standard russ, only being able to fire one weapon at combat speed. With the removal of defensive weapons, it can't even fire it's coaxial stubber/bolter accurately while on the move.
Conqueror sucks yo.

I think the LRMBT with HB sponsons is a great value still, those 9 S5 shots are more useful than a lot of people give them credit for against heavy infantry, which is the main prey of the Battlecannon

You need to go back and read the first page of this thread. Anything with ordinance can only snapfire every other weapon, making sponsons on any ordinance russ next to useless.

Hmmm, I just took a look at the Conqueror. It's not Lumbering Behemoth, so it isn't heavy. It can then move 6, 12, or 18" just like a Chimera. It has a shorter range Battle Cannon that is not Ordnance, so it is basically an infantry only weapon, and it can only fire it at the 6" move. Has that odd Co-Axial rule which is kind of worthless because it's a Storm Bolter and therefore only has a 24" range. I would have made it a Heavy Bolter or Stubber if it were up to me. It has regular Russ armor of 14-13-10. All this for the same points as a Hellhound. Maybe this is another thread, but I think as an Infantry support tank, moving with the Chimeras or foot troops, it would be very useful.

Ah, then I get to the Thunderer. This now really feels like a new thread...

bb

I didn't read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone else said this, but now I think in my next game I'll be putting plasma sponsons on my punishers. Getting to choose the order that the wound pools are resolved in and getting 'heavy' on the tank make that a very interesting posibility for me.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

you could get the alternate connons (cannon mind you, not turret) bits on ebay right now for 3.50 American after shipping.

TheNameless wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

you could get the alternate connons (cannon mind you, not turret) bits on ebay right now for 3.50 American after shipping.

Or if you don't mind spending the cash, some of those awesome FW turrets.

Let me get this straight.

1. The basic LRBT can now only fire its main gun at BS, all other weapons at snap shot. (that sucks)

2. The Exterminator, Punisher, Eradicator, and the Plasma beast can fire all weapons at BS, no matter how many sponsons.

I guess this means those three LRBT and two demolishers are going to the re-fit yard for improvements.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
My point is, the tank is not cost efficient anymore when you take away the Battle Tank's firing capabilities

On this we can agree to disagree. The value of the LRBT is how hard it is to dislodge at range. Even a Tau Broadside only has a 22% to take off a hull point of a LRBT sitting behind an aegis line, and only has a ~5% chance of destroying the LRBT. Those are not good odds, and that's a ranged weapon designed to do such a thing!

There are one of two types of LR configs your going to see under this current FAQ.
Bare Bones LRBT (or demolisher)
This tank will sit back behind an aegis line and throw out a battle cannon shot every round. Given the increase of foot infantry in the meta, having battle cannon blasts has excellent applications. This tank runs you 150 points. In comparison you could buy a manticore for a few more points, which has more firepower but is much easier to dislodge at range.

Lumbering Gun Platform LR
This version will be a platform maximizing the 'heavy' rule of the LR. This would be a punisher with HB/PC sponsons, or an excecutioner with PC sponsons. These tanks are more expensive, but deliver a lot of mobile firepower.

In both these examples, the value of the LR is the durability of the unit. Your trading firepower for toughness.
Is it the best solution? Well, that depends on your local meta. Is it a valid option? Yes.

Still disagree, if the Broadside/Hammerhead connects with the tank, and pens it, it will blow it up on a 4+ assuming the cover save is failed. This is also assuming they do not have Battle Suits with fusion blasters that land on your side or rear to counter that defense line. This is basically the same with all of the tanks. And the way I run them mine all have a 5+ most of the time (in the open or not) anyways, and most of the time a 4+ because I don't move them and utilize camo netting.

Furthermore the Plasma Variant has an 11 rear rather than a 10 so in assaults it is 'slightly' better than the standard, in addition to tossing out upwards of 5 pie plates and 1 las cannon at full BS.

My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

I suppose in my mind I weigh in the destructive power at range that the tanks can do. The plasma cannon variant has to get closer, ok it is closer to the fight and therefore in more danger. The fact of the matter is if people want the tank(s) dead they will move accordingly whether you are far away or not. So then I move into "how much can I smash before my opponent brings down a world of hurt upon my tank" I then look at what the tanks can now do, LRBT falls short just about every time in comparison to what the other variants can now do.

But then again, Tau player's are a bit of a rarity at the moment.

Their new dex is rumored to be released early next year. We might be swarmed with them soon!

 Jstncloud wrote:
...My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

Like man, I hear you. I've had one of my LRMBTs since 2nd edition. It's on it's 3rd paint scheme, but I can't bring myself to rip off parts of it, no matter how much editions change.

Thank the Gawd Emperor that on a later model I have one with magnetized sponsons.

I'm thinking they'll keep the FAQed rules as is for now until we get a new codex, then maybe fix it for the codex 'wow factor.' Or a maybe way off <shrug> . Maybe all those GW studio tanks built to the old classic LRMBT layout will inspire them back to Lumbering behemoth for ordinance tanks...

 Wight Lord wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
...My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

Like man, I hear you. I've had one of my LRMBTs since 2nd edition. It's on it's 3rd paint scheme, but I can't bring myself to rip off parts of it, no matter how much editions change.

Thank the Gawd Emperor that on a later model I have one with magnetized sponsons.

I'm thinking they'll keep the FAQed rules as is for now until we get a new codex, then maybe fix it for the codex 'wow factor.' Or a maybe way off <shrug> . Maybe all those GW studio tanks built to the old classic LRMBT layout will inspire them back to Lumbering behemoth for ordinance tanks...

Yeah. I can't bring myself to take off the plasma sponsons on my demolisher.

It's very interesting. A lot of tanks I found not giving a second thought about are suddenly pretty appealing.

Hey guys, I've some instructions on how to make your own Exterminator Autocannon from scratch.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/okb2frfwyd2os41/ACQ3G8avwY

Its just a guide, so feel free to change things to how you see fit.

Also currently working on insturctions for the Executioner cannon.

In the meantime here are some pictures of the end results.

I just finished an 1850 game with 2 exterminators with multimelta sponsons and a lascannon amd they wrecked face.
Need to buy 2 more.

Ok, So after going over all of this thread and the brb and the faq, this is what I am looking at for footguard with some LR support:

CCS-ML, Standard
CCS-3X PG, Standard
Marbo
SS-Meltas
PCS-4X MG
3X IS-MG, MB
2X SWS-PG's
PCS-AC, 2X Flamer
2X IS-MB, Flamer, LC
2X Vendettas
2X Baslisk
Exterminator-LC, MM Sponsons
Executioner-PC Sponsons
Aegis Defense line-Quad Gun

The idea is that the Basi's and the stationary IS's along with the CCS with ML sit back and shoot from range. The LR's, CCS with PG's, and the mobile IS's and SWS's advance forward. Yes, I realize I will be taking a lot of casualties, but I will have a ton of swinging power.

Looks alright. In an objectives game, if you're playing a crafty opponent, just be aware that they may try to gun down your mobile scoring (IS) units first. However, more than likely many players will not be able to resist going after your big targets so it could work well against a lot of folks. I would try to be careful with the mobile INF the first turn or two however. Or maybe they could sprint to a middle piece of terrain and go to ground a turn or two also.

Has anyone tried using a standard LRMBT recently? I think it would still be effective, probably just not as good a buy for the points, or as effective as an Executioner taking out MEQ and not as good against less than MEQ as an Exeterminator.

It's also a shame, My favorite tank for a long time has been the Demolisher with plasma cannons. However I may shelve it for the time being.

With cover being harder to come by and targeted shots AND heavy russes, don't forget to use them as cover and to keep your commissars/sgts out of LOS and in cover. A conscript squad blocking the front and the sides of the russ and provididng cover for a power blob with the important guys hiding behind the Russ is a mass of slow marching death.

Uh, silly question concerning the whole Heavy thing. Since a Russ is now Heavy and can no longer move faster than Combat Speed, does that mean a Russ can no longer Ram? Must move at Cruising Speed to Ram and cannot move faster than Combat Speed.

I'd say they can't ram then.
Not that they were ever very good at it.

Russes never had the speed or the need for ramming before, I think I tried it once in 5th ed and nothing much happened.

I'm glad this thread's here, I was fretting quite a bit about this. Splitting russes in one's head between the heavy gang and the ordnance gang makes good sense, just such a shame that my previous perfect and lovely vanilla russ with lascannon and plasma sponsons doesn't cut the cheese any more.

Has anyone actually tried the triple-heavy-flamer russ loadout with the new heavy rules? I get a strong feeling that before you get the chance to use them, you've been melta'd or fisted. To hit anything much with the sponson flamers your opponent's horde needs to have moved within 9" in the previous turn, and that's a little too close for comfort to me. I suppose if you have a sacrificial unit in front that gets charged, it might work, but it just seems like the kinda thing opponents will get around time and time again.

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I don't want to make this a back and forth, but the Medusa is going to be able to find usable cover unlike the much larger flyers, IMHO.
Not to mention the Manticore is better at the tank hunting, also IMHO.

The Medusa is a bit an enigma. It has the best gun in the IG arsenal.

STR 10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance with a 36" range.

However lacks the AV of the Demolisher and barrage rules therefore it cannot barrage snipe or deny cover. I think it serves a great area denial role and if you are already taking a Aegis line I think its a good addition. If you need mobile fire power or expect a lot of Anti-Tank, take a Demolisher.

Glocknall wrote:
The Medusa is a bit an enigma. It has the best gun in the IG arsenal.

STR 10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance with a 36" range.

However lacks the AV of the Demolisher and barrage rules therefore it cannot barrage snipe or deny cover. I think it serves a great area denial role and if you are already taking a Aegis line I think its a good addition. If you need mobile fire power or expect a lot of Anti-Tank, take a Demolisher.

And now in 6th ed., it actually can be useful for something I'd never used it for before: Bastion killer!
I mean c'mon, it has the Bastion Breacher for a reason!

The issue with BB is that it becomes a dedicated tank/bastion breacher and loses its anti-heavy infantry role.

 Kain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I almost fell out of my chair from excitement over the Conqueror's cheap cost and ability to fire a shorter range splat cannon. Then I realized that there is another issue with it besides the loss of range. The main cannon is only a blast so you use the small template.

It does have a coaxial storm bolter though, so if you hit with the storm bolter you get to re-roll scatter with the blast weapon. So that mitigates the loss of size of template, though you'll never nail as much infantry as before in one go.
It also just occurs to me that without the ordnance rule, the Conqueror is not as good at scoring penetrating hits either.

But for 10 points more than a regular Russ you can bring one with Multi-meltas and be able to fire everything. That's pretty sweet. I think I might have to try these guys out.

Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

Is it just me, or does the 24" range of the Punisher make it less of a choice for anyone else?

And something else that I've heard mentioned in this discussion that's got me curious.
Are the Plasma sponsons being a possible victim of "Getting Hot" now a turn off for using
them? I'm actually less likely to use them for that reason. Added on top to the high point
cost of the Executioner the ability to hurt it myself, what could go wrong?!

I've got a big mix of older Russes, and about 6 of the latest version. On the last 2 of the newest
version, I left the hull/sponson weapons interchangeable, and purchased enough bits to make LRBT,
Eradicator and Exterminator turrets. It can get crazy exspensive, but if you're patient sometimes it
pays off if you watch bit stores and Feebay.

To owners of the old style LRBT: you could make a magnetized and removeable "plug" to add to the
bottom of the newest turrets. I haven't tryed it, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard. Just a thought.

 McGibs wrote:
Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

D'oh. I assumed that the whole vehicle got re-classified as heavy. Guess not.

I guess they're intent on making us leave the LRBTs behind and purchasing more flyers.

 alarmingrick wrote:
Is it just me, or does the 24" range of the Punisher make it less of a choice for anyone else?

Not really. It has a 30 inch effective range now for it's main gun. (move 6, fire 24). Park the thing near an objective or in your gunline and you've got a great tank to keep the swarms from overrunning you position. The thing that's a bit of a turn-off is that it's only STR 5, but as my infantry is already geared towards taking down vehicles, it's a great support unit that lets my big guns fire on the targets they need to.

As far as the executioner sponsons go, I guess taking them depends on if you believe in overkill. I'm split. On one hand, having that much firepower in one tank is awesome! But on the other hand, having that much firepower in a tank that can kill itself, well, isn't.


Anyone else try punisher pask in 6th? Thoughts?

I for one, do believe in over kill, which why I'll be building my Executioner when I get home. I've got some MEQs to take out with a vengeance.

Like I want to try Pask in a Vanquisher myself just see how it goes. I'd like to hear how he does in a Punisher though as well.

I have run a punisher pask with decent results. Las cannon and heavy bolters. It is good at taking out infantry. Did take out an ork trukk, but it kareened right into me with a bunch of power claw nobs.

Russes being heavy just means that my Punisher (with those three heavy bolters and a stubber) just got way more fun. Yes I know that the punisher is considered bad but my opponents who have faced it in sixth hate it.

Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

 Testify wrote:
Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

I like how you think. Who needs ordinance when you have dakka?

Exactly. Such a smooth bell curve as well with that many shots.

 Testify wrote:
Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

Agreed. Though I do not field mine with pask. I am tempted to buy two more punishers just for the fun though. And I play 1000 point games mostly Punishers kill pretty much anything especially at that points level... though my personal favorite kill with IG still is that Necron Destroyer Lord with 4 lasgun shots.

What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

In a game yesterday my Exterminator with PC sponsons racked up 27 AP2 wounds on a deepstriking Necron unit with Oberon and Imotek in it.

My opponent just stared in disbelief.

I am calling it the Evaporator now. Units just turn to steam when you point it at them.

I never used sponsons or the lascannon hull a lot anyway to be quite honest, with the way I run my tanks I barebones my Leman Russ so I can just have more of them.

tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

 alarmingrick wrote:

tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

No kidding. GW really dropped the ball on naming the Russ tanks.

All jokes aside, I just got a game in with the Exterminator (autocannon turret) w/PC sponsons today. It did remarkably well taking out 5 or so thousand sons before being killed by some outflanking terminators (curse you warlord traits!!!). Mixing the AP2 small blast with the ability to load up on autocannon and heavy bolter wounds is great and makes for a very versatile little tank.

tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

As one of my opponents said.

"Good god, that thing is death incarnate."

Scored 20 plasma WOUNDS on a crusader squad in cover. Emperor's champion is in front. Takes 4 hits to the face, dies. 9 more proceed to die before he started to pass cover saves.

Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn. Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

They are terrifying, and hilariously fun. Plus, statistically, your russ will only glance itself once every 4 turns or something like that, so it's not like it looses hull points that fast.

What I REALLY want to try though, is an armored company punisher with x3 heavy bolters and the crack shot trait. 29 S6 shots against vehicles... per turn... and it can always move 6".... *drools*

It's so beautiful....

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

As one of my opponents said.

"Good god, that thing is death incarnate."

Scored 20 plasma WOUNDS on a crusader squad in cover. Emperor's champion is in front. Takes 4 hits to the face, dies. 9 more proceed to die before he started to pass cover saves.

Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn. Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

They are terrifying, and hilariously fun. Plus, statistically, your russ will only glance itself once every 4 turns or something like that, so it's not like it looses hull points that fast.

What I REALLY want to try though, is an armored company punisher with x3 heavy bolters and the crack shot trait. 29 S6 shots against vehicles... per turn... and it can always move 6".... *drools*

It's so beautiful....

Well, if you want the crack shot rule to go through you have to stay stationary, otherwise you're only getting those str5 shots. Still, the BS4 helps a lot no doubt. Or are we not talking pask here and some other rule associated with Armored Company I'm not aware of?

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

No kidding. GW really dropped the ball on naming the Russ tanks.

All jokes aside, I just got a game in with the Exterminator (autocannon turret) w/PC sponsons today. It did remarkably well taking out 5 or so thousand sons before being killed by some outflanking terminators (curse you warlord traits!!!). Mixing the AP2 small blast with the ability to load up on autocannon and heavy bolter wounds is great and makes for a very versatile little tank.

Ally with wolves and take a Rune Priest . 5 TL Plasma cannon shots.

Sorry I meant ace gunner trait that you can get on any russ with the Armored company rules. Instead of paying 50pt's for pask's rule that forces you to stay still, ace gunner is only 10pts, AND works on the move. Doesn't allow you to reroll wounds on MC's, but I think i'll live

And also, Space wolf Rune priests aren't relentless with AV14 Armor. They are also not tanks. Therefore, executioner is superior. i mean, even the NAME is cooler

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


And also, Space wolf Rune priests aren't relentless with AV14 Armor. They are also not tanks. Therefore, executioner is superior. i mean, even the NAME is cooler

He means casting prescience on your Executioner with the rune priest.

oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Yes, blessings are cast on target units (BRB pg. 68). So they are not specifically limited to infantry.

Another reason why Divination is OP.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Primaris Psykers do not have access to Divination.

He was talking about a Rune Priest (Space Wolf) that uses the Primaris Power from the Divination Discipline, not a Primaris Psyker from the Imperial Guard codex.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn.

Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?

"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

That's a 6th edition mentality! If one of your units manages to absorb one entire round of shooting before it dies, it took up to 20% of your opponents possible fire. (in a 5 turn game)

And that was a lucky shot! Stick that tank behind an aegis defense line and even an rail gun only has a 11% of killing it. Having a platform that resilient with a lot of damage potential is awesome. The fact that it has damage potential means your opponent has to deal with it. Being resilient means he can't just dedicate a small amount of firepower to dislodge it. He must focus a lot of his attention to dislodging it, which means that's less firepower the rest of your army is absorbing.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

 labmouse42 wrote:
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

It's obsolete in the sense that it's not the ONLY standard a unit should be judged by. As you said, a unit that never makes its points back directly by killing enemy units can still be good if it fills a necessary support role, claims objectives, etc. However, it is still one of the ways in which a unit can justify its place in a list. Think about it this way: if we're playing a 2000 point game and my 200 point tank kills 250 points of your units before dying we're now playing a game with my 1800 points against your 1750. And let's say I make another of these trades. Now we're playing with my 1600 against your 1500. If I keep making equal or better trades eventually I'll be the only one with an army left and I'll easily claim all of the objectives for the win.

Now, obviously this is a rather simplified view of things, but a unit that can consistently remove its points or better from your opponent's army is probably going to be a successful unit.

 Testify wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?
"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives. An example of this would be ork grots sitting on objectives. Another example would be fateweaver or eldrad -- who I have never seen 'kill their points back' in any game yet they are considered auto-take.

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

Isn't that what vendettas are for
130 points for a flyer with that damage output makes most other armies cry themselves to sleep at night.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Now, obviously this is a rather simplified view of things, but a unit that can consistently remove its points or better from your opponent's army is probably going to be a successful unit.

There are units that are brought for damage output -- I agree with that. You can judge how good they are by an average of how many points worth of units they destroy in each game.

However, if you use that measuring stick as "They earned their points back" then its still a poor measuring stick. By the definition they are going to destroy good amounts of units and hopefully they will on average earn more then 'their points back'.

Your example also has a flaw. Lets say that I'm playing daemons and your playing IG. If my daemons kill 600 points of IG, and your army manages to kill fateweaver, your still up in that exchange -- even though its not points efficient.

Another example would be an army that only has 3 scoring troops in a 2000 point game in objective games. I would gladly trade point-for-point a 2 to 1 basis to kill those troop choices. Once I have removed those troops the best your opponent can do is tie you.

Again, there are high-damage units. You can use a measuring stick to see 'how much they kill', but measuring them on 'earning their points back' is an out of date mechanism.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Given the piss-poor damage output of infantry guard, russes need to make several times their points costs back

Isn't that what vendettas are for
130 points for a flyer with that damage output makes most other armies cry themselves to sleep at night.

 labmouse42 wrote:
There are units that are brought for damage output -- I agree with that. You can judge how good they are by an average of how many points worth of units they destroy in each game.

Exactly. And a LR Executioner is one of those units. You bring it because you want to remove heavy infantry, and a reasonable judge of its efficiency is whether it can remove ~200 points of heavy infantry in a game. If it can, it's killing efficiently. If it can't, it's probably not justifying its presence.

Your example also has a flaw. Lets say that I'm playing daemons and your playing IG. If my daemons kill 600 points of IG, and your army manages to kill fateweaver, your still up in that exchange -- even though its not points efficient.

That's not what "earning its points back" means. The important question in that scenario is whether the units I used to kill Fateweaver cost more or less than the demon. If they cost significantly less, my units are awesome. If they cost significantly more, it's probably a sign that my list isn't working very efficiently since the rest of the demon army will be killing my stuff without any interference.

Another example would be an army that only has 3 scoring troops in a 2000 point game in objective games. I would gladly trade point-for-point a 2 to 1 basis to kill those troop choices. Once I have removed those troops the best your opponent can do is tie you.

Actually 6th changed that, with first blood/linebreaker/kill the warlord. Throwing away units at a 2:1 ratio is probably going to weaken your army enough that they can kill YOUR scoring units and win on the tiebreaker points. And, if nothing else, there's always the traditional "table you to win" plan. If I'm killing your stuff at a 2:1 ratio and you're even being nice enough to focus on my troops instead of my big guns, well, I think I might go for that plan.

But even with that in mind, obviously sometimes you're going to be willing to throw away points at worse than a 1:1 ratio, but that's not the question here. The question is whether a unit is capable of earning its points back, on average, not whether you will choose to use it that way in every single game.

 Testify wrote:
Well Fateweaver is a T5 FMC with a re-rollable 3++. If you managed to take it down, it means you've concentrated an insane amount of firepower on him over one or two turns.

I've been playing daemons for ~2 months now, and I've learned that Fateweaver is not as durable as people think.

Fateweaver has 3 wounds, T5 with an 8/9 chance of making his save. However with every failed save, he has a 16.66% of leaving the game. This means you need ~22 wounds on him before he flees the board on average.

The trick is to use the right tool for the job.

Ground him so hes no longer swooping with your lasguns. Just keep making him make those grounding tests until he fails one -- which is 1/3 of the time.
Once he is down, use scatter lasers or a punisher with HB sponsons to throw a wounds on him. Throwing 22 wounds on a T5 target is not nearly as tough as one might think when you have plasma vets, chimeras, and a punisher.
If your playing someone who has Null Zone or rolls Misfortune, Fateweaver's survivability drops significantly.

In competitive games, I lose fateweaver 1/2 of the time. Good players know the right way to kill him. Poor players will try and rely upon 3 vendettas to take him down.

 Testify wrote:
In that time if the rest of my army has taken out 600 points of my enemy's army, I'd probably be pretty happy. The rest of my FMCs would be at your lines as well and about to wreck gak up, having been ignored by your shooting at the fateweaver.

You know, I've been putting less stock into the flying circus. I have gotten better results using more flamers, seeker chariots and bloodcrushers than 3 FMC DPs. I guess that's a topic for another thread though.

Speaking of getting on thread -- a punisher with HB sponons is an excellent example of a great use for a vehicle under the new rules. Moving 6" and being able to deliver that many STR 5 shots is a good advantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
The question is whether a unit is capable of earning its points back, on average, not whether you will choose to use it that way in every single game.

Peregrine, it sounds like we are talking about nearly the same thing, and we are agreeing on most points. I have a feeling that we have a different definition for "Earning its points back" What is yours?

Your comment here leads to another excellent point that I've been debating lately.

I have been shifting the focus of my troop selections to multi-purpose units. The best example of this is the new flamer released with the WD Daemons update. These models are exceptional at killing vehicles, light infantry and heavy infantry. Bringing multi-purpose units means that your less likely to be caught in a situation where your units cannot do any good.

LRBTs can nicely fit into this role. An executioner can be utilized vs light armor, heavy infantry or light infantry with equal effect. A bare bones LRBT can be used vs MEQ or anti-vehicle.

Can you think of other ways to maximize the IGs mutli-purpose unit roles?

This is the reason I don't play in tournaments. The Uber competative nature take all the fun out of the game. I like to build an army, play and have a few beers while catching up with friends. Don't get me wrong I like to win but obessing about whether my Russ' are worth the points takes away the whole point of playing the game to have fun. If its not fun then why play? Call me a grumpy old man but I play simply for the comradery and fun of the hobby.

Holy crap, say one thing about a tank making it's points back and the thread explodes

What I meant by it was that even the tank costs almost as much as a landraider, it can still pull its weight. It costs almost as much as 2 barebones russes, it better be doing almost 2x the damage per turn as well. You buy your heavy support to kill things usually, and thats what an executioner with plasma sponsons and a lascannon does. Yes it draws fire like no other, but if I wanted to eat AT I would take barebones russes as they spread their firepower out more. However, I'm kind of hesitant to take vanilla russes now when usually 30 to 40 points can get you a much scarier tank now. The punisher, exterminator, and the vanquisher can all become nasty now when you throw a couple upgrades on them. Plus, they tend to have redncdancy built in. If I lose the turret on a LRMBT then it's pretty much useless. But if I lose the turret on a lascannon/multimelta vanquisher, big whoop, I've stil got three nasty AT weapons that can fire on the move. My range has been reduced yes, but the tank can still do damage and pull it's weight on the battlefield and still attract fire, which a russ with only the hull bolter left could never do.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn.

Respectfully, isn't that statement a 4th edition mentality?

"Earning their points back" is a poor measuring stick because 40k has many units that do not kill much at all, but instead fill other important battlefield objectives.

Agreed, but It's not a worthless measuring stick. There is nothing wrong with using "killyness" as evidence of a units superiority.

 McGibs wrote:
Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

Sad but true. However I imagine this will be fixed soom. The Conqueror has always been the shoot on the move LRBT, and I'll bet the next FAQ from FW will have that roll restored. My question is will it drop back down to a str7 ap4 shot like it was in the past?

Pretty depressed about the changes TBH. LC LRBTs were a staple for me for what seems like forever. But now, its almost like reverting back to the dark days when Russes could only fire the boom-gun at the stand-still. The upsetting part is I have 5 Russ hulls with the LC permanently affixed... Luckily I still have enough bolter equipped hulls for most games.

The LC is still an ok choice. But it does hurt to be stuck with a particular load out. At least the new kits you can get away without glueing.

True, I've managed to get 3 of the newer model tanks, but I just prefer the look of the older kits. Luckily I have about a dozen old tanks with different guns and modified in various ways, so it's easy enough to just grab a different tank.

I just need to find a way to magnetize sponsons without cracking open the sides of the tank, and I'd be set!

Played my first game tonight with the new FAQ against a GK army, the executioner with PC sponsons is beast. I was able to put 12 plasma wounds and 3 HB wounds on a sqauds of termies. Even with gets hot that tank can rack up unbelievable amounts of kills. Hordes, termies, some light vehicles. This tank can do it all. Although Im finding having it shoot at light vehicles is a waste. The HB on the front needs to stay though, to keep the cost down as well as offer the opportunity to waste lower priority targets in front to get to the good stuff in the back.

The Exterminator with the MM and LC was not as effective as I had hoped. I am leaning towards replacing it with another Executioner and removing majority of the plasma from my list other than them. Leaving only 1 or 2 SWS with PG's and the CCS with pg's as well.

The 2 basilisks behind the ADL with a few LC's worked out unbelievably well also. What I feel I need now are units that can charge forward and put the pressure on the opponent along with providing some mobility. Some thoughts for this would be SM allies with bikes or the classic vet squads, in 5th I would run a handful to support the platoons where needed, might try out the same thing here in 6th.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!

Yep, and I'll 1 up the rune priest with a primaris casting it after an allied deamon princes lashes the unit out of cover, into the open, and into a group hug.

Offtopic, but you can also cast prescience on zooming flyers.

I've finally got a chance to run a bit of IG fun with LR parking lots

Essentially had Exterminator (HB sponsons, HB turret, and a heavy stubber) - this thing is really really fun to shoot with, pretty much everything has range at 36' (well technically 34' since the sponsons are a bit backwards) The AP 4 does suck a bit but luckily I was shooting at alot of necron warriors so it essentially destroyed everything. Probably would suck vs SM's though 12 shots of str 5, and 4 shots of TL str 7 did really better than I thought as an Anti-air platform that I was still very impressed

I mixed in an eradicator with also bolters all around - the unit didn't really have much cohesion other than 36' effective range all around. I had some terrible scatters so I didn't get to do much with the nova cannon though I'm hoping to give it some more tries. There's another guard player with blob squads behind the aegis that always goes to ground and then orders them back up, it was mostly for that guy. Also effective vs Tau and eldar/GK henchmen lists so I'm really hoping to see it do better. Maybe run a squad of 2 of them?

I've yet to try out the legendary pask punisher as mine got killed before I got in range of anything useful. GG doomscythe...
Not sure if it was a good idea or not but I put a demolisher in with the punisher as a squadron. I'm thinking this was a poor choice. In either case, the doomscythe took them both out in one round so I didn't get to really test if the LC + demolisher still did anything. Heck of a fire magnet though.

Vendettas now ful fill most of my anti-armor needs. Now I actually have 3 of them. Had to strip some chimeras from my vets but I still really like vets with plasma/meltas. Now they ride in valks instead of chimeras cause I blew all the rest of the points on AV 14 lol

hopefully next week I'll get to try the much lauded plasmacutioner everyone's talking about or maybe divination bolter punisher. Locally, I may have to take 2 of them just to see if anything survive to actually get to shoot. Freaking necrons in my area are so cheese with doomscythes/nightfighting/lucky lightning rolls. At least they aren't using as many scarabs and spiders anymore... plenty O-wraiths though which btw, the exterminator did really well against with just pure wound saturation.

I recently took the Pask-punisher as well. For me it performed admirably. I think it just depends on what you're up against. I was facing orks and it just chewed threw ork walkers. The 29 str6 shots at BS4 is really amazing in the right places. Next time you might want to just consider taking two vanilla ones as Pask doesn't add much to a list facing crons. You'd really only be getting BS4 for the points as Str6 means nothing to necron vehicles with shields still up.

I tried the X5 Plasma Combo, and it worked decently. The thing soaked up a ton of firepower with that awesome AV 14, took out a squad of marine bikers, finished off a monstrous creature, and wrecked a transport; however, the thing whiffed completely when it came to taking out a clumped-together squad, which was disappointing. It's very versatile. I'm liking versatility more and more, especially in 6th. It's kinda weird, I find myself leaving anti-infantry to my tanks, and anti-tank to my infantry. I think two tanks, the pask-punisher and the plasma-tank are going to be in the go-to heavy support for my lists from now on, mostly because they can engage a wide variety of targets effectively and put out a high volume of fire.