Leman Russ Tanks are now Heavy.

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**Evil Lamp 6**

Uh, silly question concerning the whole Heavy thing. Since a Russ is now Heavy and can no longer move faster than Combat Speed, does that mean a Russ can no longer Ram? Must move at Cruising Speed to Ram and cannot move faster than Combat Speed.

**McGibs**

I'd say they can't ram then.
Not that they were ever very good at it.

**Captain Roderick**

Russes never had the speed or the need for ramming before, I think I tried it once in 5th ed and nothing much happened.

I'm glad this thread's here, I was fretting quite a bit about this. Splitting russes in one's head between the heavy gang and the ordnance gang makes good sense, just such a shame that my previous perfect and lovely vanilla russ with lascannon and plasma sponsons doesn't cut the cheese any more.

Has anyone actually tried the triple-heavy-flamer russ loadout with the new heavy rules? I get a strong feeling that before you get the chance to use them, you've been melta'd or fisted. To hit anything much with the sponson flamers your opponent's horde needs to have moved within 9" in the previous turn, and that's a little too close for comfort to me. I suppose if you have a sacrificial unit in front that gets charged, it might work, but it just seems like the kinda thing opponents will get around time and time again.

**alarmingrick**

Kain wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I don't want to make this a back and forth, but the Medusa is going to be able to find usable cover unlike the much larger flyers, IMHO.
Not to mention the Manticore is better at the tank hunting, also IMHO.

**Glocknall**

The Medusa is a bit an enigma. It has the best gun in the IG arsenal.

STR 10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance with a 36" range.

However lacks the AV of the Demolisher and barrage rules therefore it cannot barrage snipe or deny cover. I think it serves a great area denial role and if you are already taking a Aegis line I think its a good addition. If you need mobile fire power or expect a lot of Anti-Tank, take a Demolisher.

**alarmingrick**

Glocknall wrote:
The Medusa is a bit an enigma. It has the best gun in the IG arsenal.

STR 10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance with a 36" range.

However lacks the AV of the Demolisher and barrage rules therefore it cannot barrage snipe or deny cover. I think it serves a great area denial role and if you are already taking a Aegis line I think its a good addition. If you need mobile fire power or expect a lot of Anti-Tank, take a Demolisher.

And now in 6th ed., it actually can be useful for something I'd never used it for before: Bastion killer!
I mean c'mon, it has the Bastion Breacher for a reason!

**Glocknall**

The issue with BB is that it becomes a dedicated tank/bastion breacher and loses its anti-heavy infantry role.

**bogalubov**

Kain wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I almost fell out of my chair from excitement over the Conqueror's cheap cost and ability to fire a shorter range splat cannon. Then I realized that there is another issue with it besides the loss of range. The main cannon is only a blast so you use the small template.

It does have a coaxial storm bolter though, so if you hit with the storm bolter you get to re-roll scatter with the blast weapon. So that mitigates the loss of size of template, though you'll never nail as much infantry as before in one go.
It also just occurs to me that without the ordnance rule, the Conqueror is not as good at scoring penetrating hits either.

But for 10 points more than a regular Russ you can bring one with Multi-meltas and be able to fire everything. That's pretty sweet. I think I might have to try these guys out.

**McGibs**

Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

**alarmingrick**

Is it just me, or does the 24" range of the Punisher make it less of a choice for anyone else?

And something else that I've heard mentioned in this discussion that's got me curious.
Are the Plasma sponsons being a possible victim of "Getting Hot" now a turn off for using
them? I'm actually less likely to use them for that reason. Added on top to the high point
cost of the Executioner the ability to hurt it myself, what could go wrong?!

I've got a big mix of older Russes, and about 6 of the latest version. On the last 2 of the newest
version, I left the hull/sponson weapons interchangeable, and purchased enough bits to make LRBT,
Eradicator and Exterminator turrets. It can get crazy exspensive, but if you're patient sometimes it
pays off if you watch bit stores and Feebay.

To owners of the old style LRBT: you could make a magnetized and removeable "plug" to add to the
bottom of the newest turrets. I haven't tryed it, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard. Just a thought.

**bogalubov**

McGibs wrote:
Conqueror doesnt have lumbering behemoth, therefore does not have heavy.

So it has to remain stationary to make use of anything, otherwise it's snap firing. Even the coaxial bolter.

D'oh. I assumed that the whole vehicle got re-classified as heavy. Guess not.

I guess they're intent on making us leave the LRBTs behind and purchasing more flyers.

**kestril**

alarmingrick wrote:
Is it just me, or does the 24" range of the Punisher make it less of a choice for anyone else?

Not really. It has a 30 inch effective range now for it's main gun. (move 6, fire 24). Park the thing near an objective or in your gunline and you've got a great tank to keep the swarms from overrunning you position. The thing that's a bit of a turn-off is that it's only STR 5, but as my infantry is already geared towards taking down vehicles, it's a great support unit that lets my big guns fire on the targets they need to.

As far as the executioner sponsons go, I guess taking them depends on if you believe in overkill. I'm split. On one hand, having that much firepower in one tank is awesome! But on the other hand, having that much firepower in a tank that can kill itself, well, isn't.

Anyone else try punisher pask in 6th? Thoughts?

**Wight Lord**

I for one, do believe in over kill, which why I'll be building my Executioner when I get home. I've got some MEQs to take out with a vengeance.

Like I want to try Pask in a Vanquisher myself just see how it goes. I'd like to hear how he does in a Punisher though as well.

**martin74**

I have run a punisher pask with decent results. Las cannon and heavy bolters. It is good at taking out infantry. Did take out an ork trukk, but it kareened right into me with a bunch of power claw nobs.

**gaovinni**

Russes being heavy just means that my Punisher (with those three heavy bolters and a stubber) just got way more fun. Yes I know that the punisher is considered bad but my opponents who have faced it in sixth hate it.

**Testify**

Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

**kestril**

Testify wrote:
Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

I like how you think. Who needs ordinance when you have dakka?

**Testify**

Exactly. Such a smooth bell curve as well with that many shots.

**gaovinni**

Testify wrote:
Punisher Pasks are amazing at taking down pretty much anything - light and heavy infantry, light vehicles, MCs, fliers.
I like to run them with two other Punishers, just to prove a point

Agreed. Though I do not field mine with pask. I am tempted to buy two more punishers just for the fun though. And I play 1000 point games mostly

Punishers kill pretty much anything especially at that points level... though my personal favorite kill with IG still is that Necron Destroyer Lord with 4 lasgun shots.

**tedbpb**

What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

**Glocknall**

tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

In a game yesterday my Exterminator with PC sponsons racked up 27 AP2 wounds on a deepstriking Necron unit with Oberon and Imotek in it.

My opponent just stared in disbelief.

I am calling it the Evaporator now. Units just turn to steam when you point it at them.

**Militarized**

I never used sponsons or the lascannon hull a lot anyway to be quite honest, with the way I run my tanks I barebones my Leman Russ so I can just have more of them.

**alarmingrick**

tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

**WhiteWolf01**

alarmingrick wrote:
tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

No kidding. GW really dropped the ball on naming the Russ tanks.

All jokes aside, I just got a game in with the Exterminator (autocannon turret) w/PC sponsons today. It did remarkably well taking out 5 or so thousand sons before being killed by some outflanking terminators (curse you warlord traits!!!). Mixing the AP2 small blast with the ability to load up on autocannon and heavy bolter wounds is great and makes for a very versatile little tank.

**MrMoustaffa**

tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

As one of my opponents said.

"Good god, that thing is death incarnate."

Scored 20 plasma WOUNDS on a crusader squad in cover. Emperor's champion is in front. Takes 4 hits to the face, dies. 9 more proceed to die before he started to pass cover saves.

Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn. Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

They are terrifying, and hilariously fun. Plus, statistically, your russ will only glance itself once every 4 turns or something like that, so it's not like it looses hull points that fast.

What I REALLY want to try though, is an armored company punisher with x3 heavy bolters and the crack shot trait. 29 S6 shots against vehicles... per turn... and it can always move 6".... *drools*

It's so beautiful....

**WhiteWolf01**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
tedbpb wrote:
What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

As one of my opponents said.

"Good god, that thing is death incarnate."

Scored 20 plasma WOUNDS on a crusader squad in cover. Emperor's champion is in front. Takes 4 hits to the face, dies. 9 more proceed to die before he started to pass cover saves.

Even with almost a 3rd of the wounds saved, it made it's points back in a SINGLE SALVO. And it only got to shoot one turn. Turn 2, my opponent fired everything he had at it and got a lucky pen, killing it.

They are terrifying, and hilariously fun. Plus, statistically, your russ will only glance itself once every 4 turns or something like that, so it's not like it looses hull points that fast.

What I REALLY want to try though, is an armored company punisher with x3 heavy bolters and the crack shot trait. 29 S6 shots against vehicles... per turn... and it can always move 6".... *drools*

It's so beautiful....

Well, if you want the crack shot rule to go through you have to stay stationary, otherwise you're only getting those str5 shots. Still, the BS4 helps a lot no doubt. Or are we not talking pask here and some other rule associated with Armored Company I'm not aware of?

**valace2**

WhiteWolf01 wrote:
alarmingrick wrote:
tedbpb wrote:What about the LR Exterminator? 3-5 PC shots a turn gets no love?

I think you mean Executioner. (No, really I know it's what you mean!)

No kidding. GW really dropped the ball on naming the Russ tanks.

All jokes aside, I just got a game in with the Exterminator (autocannon turret) w/PC sponsons today. It did remarkably well taking out 5 or so thousand sons before being killed by some outflanking terminators (curse you warlord traits!!!). Mixing the AP2 small blast with the ability to load up on autocannon and heavy bolter wounds is great and makes for a very versatile little tank.

Ally with wolves and take a Rune Priest

. 5 TL Plasma cannon shots.

**MrMoustaffa**

Sorry I meant ace gunner trait that you can get on any russ with the Armored company rules. Instead of paying 50pt's for pask's rule that forces you to stay still, ace gunner is only 10pts, AND works on the move. Doesn't allow you to reroll wounds on MC's, but I think i'll live

And also, Space wolf Rune priests aren't relentless with AV14 Armor. They are also not tanks. Therefore, executioner is superior. i mean, even the NAME is cooler

**Glocknall**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

And also, Space wolf Rune priests aren't relentless with AV14 Armor. They are also not tanks. Therefore, executioner is superior. i mean, even the NAME is cooler

He means casting prescience on your Executioner with the rune priest.

**MrMoustaffa**

oh...

Wait, you can cast prescience on TANKS!??!?!?!

WHY WAS I NOT TOLD!??!