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I agree about the sponsons thing, I still don't see the sanity in paying another 20pts just to try and minimize the damage of a result you'll only see if you get a pen. And even then, if you're getting penned, the tank is probably dead anyways. The having 9 heavy bolter shots for a single remaining model makes a little bit, but I would hope you're able to have more than just a russ live to the end of a game.

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

Sure.

You used the phrase "almost always", which implied that you think it was "almost never" a good idea to sit and shoot the lascannon over moving and shooting the demolisher cannon. "Almost never" strikes me as way too harsh.

Generally speaking, on turn 1 (and maybe 2) of most games, it would make sense to shoot the lascannon, with the demolisher only really shining turns 3 until whenever it was killed. It was more like every game you'd have at least a turn where it would make sense, rather than practically never.

In my experience it was strongly in favor of moving to position for a better shot next turn, especially before smoke saves were reduced to 5+. Even if, in some cases, that movement was sideways to gain better cover and/or deny cover to where I think I want to shoot next turn, it was usually more appealing than taking a single BS 3 lascannon shot. After all, god, in his almighty wisdom, gave us Vendettas at 130 points each to carry our lascannons, and who am I to argue with the omniscient?

Of course I'd also tend to disagree with "best turn 3 and later", since I like my demolishers aggressively moving up to demolish things ASAP and draw fire from the squishy mech vets behind them. If I have to wait until turn 3 to get an effective shot, I'll just take a Medusa and get my pie plate on the first turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

So for tread heads that want multiple LRBT perhaps the best ally would be GK for access to Coteaz and strikes. Nothing like warp quake and Coteaz casting divination on a 5 man purifier squad he joined to repulse the deep striking melta.

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

 schadenfreude wrote:

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

Yeah go ahead and post it. I've got exterminator cannons just fine (ordered a couple before the change) but I'd love to see your executioner conversion. I've got some plasma cannons I thought about using for it by making something like twin linked plasma cannons on the turret, but i'm sure your idea would look a lot better

tankboy145 wrote:
This update just doesnt seem right, lascannons seem pointless on the tanks now, and the bolters will rarely hit, maybe once if that. The rules for weapon destroyed being random was nice for the battle cannon and demolisher but now that sponsons are useless your main cannon is easier to loose again because whose gunna spend 20+ points for sponsons that might make your cannon more survivable. Maybe heavy vehicles will get the update of being able to fire all weapons at normal bs, sounds reasonable. thankfully i have 2 russes with sponsons and 2 without seeing as i wont be using the ones with them anymore. having 6 battle tanks sucks now, guess its time to break some turrets to make punishers and eradicators lol.

I am honestly hoping for another FAQ, just doesn't seem reasonable imo, having the heavy trait is great but I'd rather they say something like "Change Lumbering Behemoth to: "...vehicle has the Heavy Special Rule, In addition vehicles with Lumbering Behemoth may fire all weapons (when not shaken/stunned) at full ballistic skill..."

Something like that, rather than remove the special rule altogether just change the wording or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Not necessarily. If there was any chance your opponent would be bringing things over towards you, it always made sense to shoot a lascannon from behind 4+ cover than to charge out into the open and shoot nothing.

Of course you don't suicide charge if you're sure your opponent is going to bring something right to you next turn, but that isn't always the case. There were many situations where standing and shooting a single BS 3 lascannon meant giving up a good shot next turn, so you'd want to move your maximum distance, pop smoke, and hope to survive. Limiting the demolisher to 6" of movement is a really big nerf, even if it wasn't something you did 100% of the time.

 Jstncloud wrote:
What player would waste the time trying to take it at range? Any tactical player would cut the range to increase the odds of taking down the tank (IE: Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Drop Pods, etc with meltas) or Necrons with lotsa crazy glancing spam.

A player that only has limited melta and is facing your wall of tanks, so they have to use long-range shooting against something?

A player who rolled a 1 for their mulitimelta dread pod?

A player that's on the wrong side of your screening units and therefore can't get melta into range until they clear out the blob squads, so they have to use long-range shooting or get pie plated every turn?

A player who got first turn and really wants to kill your tanks before they get into range to shoot, not on turn 2 or later once melta gets in range?

There are many reasons that AV 14 will take shots from long range, and AV 14 makes a huge difference in surviving that fire compared to AV 12.

So for tread heads that want multiple LRBT perhaps the best ally would be GK for access to Coteaz and strikes. Nothing like warp quake and Coteaz casting divination on a 5 man purifier squad he joined to repulse the deep striking melta.

I run my IG with Blood Angels as allies, Camo Netting (72inch range, hardly moving), and a Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius. 4+ cover save. (Chimeras with Las cannon veterans inside outfitted the same way). Not to mention with the ease of night fighting happening, nothing like a massive cover save on the night fighting turn(s).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

seanm222 wrote:

What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

I've converted my own exterminator autocannons and executioner cannons from scratch. I can show you how if you want some turret options for cheap!

While that's technically a P&M issue I would say go ahead and post it here since many players will want to adapt their current tanks to the good 6e variants.

Yeah go ahead and post it. I've got exterminator cannons just fine (ordered a couple before the change) but I'd love to see your executioner conversion. I've got some plasma cannons I thought about using for it by making something like twin linked plasma cannons on the turret, but i'm sure your idea would look a lot better

I've got 2 (still in the bag) FW LR Plasma Turrets, pm me if you are at all interested.

 Ailaros wrote:
It's not ordnance, though. Without the BB's, the medusa is little more than the most expensive lascannon in the game, at least as far as anti-vehicle capabilities are concerned. With the bastion breachers, it gets +D6, and, more importantly, has Ap1. This means it can actually kill vehicles.

Given that anti-vehicle is really the reason to take it (because, seriously, there are plenty of ways to handle terminators), it seems mandatory to take BB to justify taking the medusa in the first place.

But as I said, there are other ways to do anti-tank, especially in a new world of multimelta sponsons now.

This, the Medusa may look good on paper, but for it's cost it's not really where you should be looking for your anti-tank. Vendettas and Vultures are significantly better for that all important task of tank popping than the Medusa is, and are rather more survivable, mobile, and versatile. Ground pounder wise, a multi-melta sponson, las cannon, hunter seeker missile totting Vanquisher will make most enemy tank commanders break out in hives far more than a Medusa will.

As for the Leman Russ tank in today's climate, just because the LRBT/D charge is no longer going the unstoppable (if cumbersome and expensive) wrecking ball of destruction it once was does not mean that the Leman Russ isn't going to be a main stay anymore. And if you are really hurting for the LRBT's destructive capabilities, there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

 Jstncloud wrote:
My point is, the tank is not cost efficient anymore when you take away the Battle Tank's firing capabilities

On this we can agree to disagree. The value of the LRBT is how hard it is to dislodge at range. Even a Tau Broadside only has a 22% to take off a hull point of a LRBT sitting behind an aegis line, and only has a ~5% chance of destroying the LRBT. Those are not good odds, and that's a ranged weapon designed to do such a thing!

There are one of two types of LR configs your going to see under this current FAQ.
Bare Bones LRBT (or demolisher)
This tank will sit back behind an aegis line and throw out a battle cannon shot every round. Given the increase of foot infantry in the meta, having battle cannon blasts has excellent applications. This tank runs you 150 points. In comparison you could buy a manticore for a few more points, which has more firepower but is much easier to dislodge at range.

Lumbering Gun Platform LR
This version will be a platform maximizing the 'heavy' rule of the LR. This would be a punisher with HB/PC sponsons, or an excecutioner with PC sponsons. These tanks are more expensive, but deliver a lot of mobile firepower.

In both these examples, the value of the LR is the durability of the unit. Your trading firepower for toughness.
Is it the best solution? Well, that depends on your local meta. Is it a valid option? Yes.

I think it's a solid buff all around. Obviously it makes the sponsons that much more useful since you can position the LR to fire them at max efficiency each turn.

Another added benefit is that you can also position the front armor against incoming threats and still fire to full effect as well.

I think the LRMBT with HB sponsons is a great value still, those 9 S5 shots are more useful than a lot of people give them credit for against heavy infantry, which is the main prey of the Battlecannon

I'm very happy that the Executioner can now move and fire all plasma cannons, hull points be damned!

I agree. The value of the russ is knowing it will still be around until your opponent tries to get close. In that respect, the Standard Russ is still good at throwing out templates from the base, and the demolisher may still have a role as a heavily armored support. Sure, the standard russ got a little worse, but it'll be interesting to see a variety of tanks on the board again.

Speaking of variety,
I'm finding the punisher w/ pask and and bolter sponsons to be marvelous at supporting the gunline. While it shines against swarms, The volume of Str 5 shots it puts out at BS 4 can put the hurt on elite units. "That 2+ save is nice, now make it 18 of 'em."


I'd also like to see the executioner conversion

I think I'll be buying the executioner/demolisher/punisher box for the lol's. This will be my 6th russ!

 Kain wrote:

there's always the Conqueror tank, you'll still get pretty much everything good about the LRBT, but the Gun's heavy instead of ordinance and has somewhat shorter range (But outside of very large games, when is 48' not going to suit your needs?), and it's 20 points cheaper too!

I was looking at the conqueror, but it seems pretty lackluster. Remember, it doesn't get lumbering-behemoth, and therefore is not heavy either. That means it's even less manoeuvrable than a standard russ, only being able to fire one weapon at combat speed. With the removal of defensive weapons, it can't even fire it's coaxial stubber/bolter accurately while on the move.
Conqueror sucks yo.

I think the LRMBT with HB sponsons is a great value still, those 9 S5 shots are more useful than a lot of people give them credit for against heavy infantry, which is the main prey of the Battlecannon

You need to go back and read the first page of this thread. Anything with ordinance can only snapfire every other weapon, making sponsons on any ordinance russ next to useless.

Hmmm, I just took a look at the Conqueror. It's not Lumbering Behemoth, so it isn't heavy. It can then move 6, 12, or 18" just like a Chimera. It has a shorter range Battle Cannon that is not Ordnance, so it is basically an infantry only weapon, and it can only fire it at the 6" move. Has that odd Co-Axial rule which is kind of worthless because it's a Storm Bolter and therefore only has a 24" range. I would have made it a Heavy Bolter or Stubber if it were up to me. It has regular Russ armor of 14-13-10. All this for the same points as a Hellhound. Maybe this is another thread, but I think as an Infantry support tank, moving with the Chimeras or foot troops, it would be very useful.

Ah, then I get to the Thunderer. This now really feels like a new thread...

bb

I didn't read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone else said this, but now I think in my next game I'll be putting plasma sponsons on my punishers. Getting to choose the order that the wound pools are resolved in and getting 'heavy' on the tank make that a very interesting posibility for me.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

you could get the alternate connons (cannon mind you, not turret) bits on ebay right now for 3.50 American after shipping.

TheNameless wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What kills me is I had just bought 4 of the old leman russ kits, I.E. the ones that only make battle tanks. Now, I have to order the special turret variants off of bitz sites, which defeated the whole point of me buying the old tanks for cheap...

you could get the alternate connons (cannon mind you, not turret) bits on ebay right now for 3.50 American after shipping.

Or if you don't mind spending the cash, some of those awesome FW turrets.

Let me get this straight.

1. The basic LRBT can now only fire its main gun at BS, all other weapons at snap shot. (that sucks)

2. The Exterminator, Punisher, Eradicator, and the Plasma beast can fire all weapons at BS, no matter how many sponsons.

I guess this means those three LRBT and two demolishers are going to the re-fit yard for improvements.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
My point is, the tank is not cost efficient anymore when you take away the Battle Tank's firing capabilities

On this we can agree to disagree. The value of the LRBT is how hard it is to dislodge at range. Even a Tau Broadside only has a 22% to take off a hull point of a LRBT sitting behind an aegis line, and only has a ~5% chance of destroying the LRBT. Those are not good odds, and that's a ranged weapon designed to do such a thing!

There are one of two types of LR configs your going to see under this current FAQ.
Bare Bones LRBT (or demolisher)
This tank will sit back behind an aegis line and throw out a battle cannon shot every round. Given the increase of foot infantry in the meta, having battle cannon blasts has excellent applications. This tank runs you 150 points. In comparison you could buy a manticore for a few more points, which has more firepower but is much easier to dislodge at range.

Lumbering Gun Platform LR
This version will be a platform maximizing the 'heavy' rule of the LR. This would be a punisher with HB/PC sponsons, or an excecutioner with PC sponsons. These tanks are more expensive, but deliver a lot of mobile firepower.

In both these examples, the value of the LR is the durability of the unit. Your trading firepower for toughness.
Is it the best solution? Well, that depends on your local meta. Is it a valid option? Yes.

Still disagree, if the Broadside/Hammerhead connects with the tank, and pens it, it will blow it up on a 4+ assuming the cover save is failed. This is also assuming they do not have Battle Suits with fusion blasters that land on your side or rear to counter that defense line. This is basically the same with all of the tanks. And the way I run them mine all have a 5+ most of the time (in the open or not) anyways, and most of the time a 4+ because I don't move them and utilize camo netting.

Furthermore the Plasma Variant has an 11 rear rather than a 10 so in assaults it is 'slightly' better than the standard, in addition to tossing out upwards of 5 pie plates and 1 las cannon at full BS.

My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

I suppose in my mind I weigh in the destructive power at range that the tanks can do. The plasma cannon variant has to get closer, ok it is closer to the fight and therefore in more danger. The fact of the matter is if people want the tank(s) dead they will move accordingly whether you are far away or not. So then I move into "how much can I smash before my opponent brings down a world of hurt upon my tank" I then look at what the tanks can now do, LRBT falls short just about every time in comparison to what the other variants can now do.

But then again, Tau player's are a bit of a rarity at the moment.

Their new dex is rumored to be released early next year. We might be swarmed with them soon!

 Jstncloud wrote:
...My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

Like man, I hear you. I've had one of my LRMBTs since 2nd edition. It's on it's 3rd paint scheme, but I can't bring myself to rip off parts of it, no matter how much editions change.

Thank the Gawd Emperor that on a later model I have one with magnetized sponsons.

I'm thinking they'll keep the FAQed rules as is for now until we get a new codex, then maybe fix it for the codex 'wow factor.' Or a maybe way off <shrug> . Maybe all those GW studio tanks built to the old classic LRMBT layout will inspire them back to Lumbering behemoth for ordinance tanks...

 Wight Lord wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:
...My complaint is those of us who modeled our tanks based on what it 'could do' are now penalized. Breaking off a model's arm is one thing, breaking off a side sponson is a whole other story.

Like man, I hear you. I've had one of my LRMBTs since 2nd edition. It's on it's 3rd paint scheme, but I can't bring myself to rip off parts of it, no matter how much editions change.

Thank the Gawd Emperor that on a later model I have one with magnetized sponsons.

I'm thinking they'll keep the FAQed rules as is for now until we get a new codex, then maybe fix it for the codex 'wow factor.' Or a maybe way off <shrug> . Maybe all those GW studio tanks built to the old classic LRMBT layout will inspire them back to Lumbering behemoth for ordinance tanks...

Yeah. I can't bring myself to take off the plasma sponsons on my demolisher.

It's very interesting. A lot of tanks I found not giving a second thought about are suddenly pretty appealing.

Hey guys, I've some instructions on how to make your own Exterminator Autocannon from scratch.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/okb2frfwyd2os41/ACQ3G8avwY

Its just a guide, so feel free to change things to how you see fit.

Also currently working on insturctions for the Executioner cannon.

In the meantime here are some pictures of the end results.

I just finished an 1850 game with 2 exterminators with multimelta sponsons and a lascannon amd they wrecked face.
Need to buy 2 more.

Ok, So after going over all of this thread and the brb and the faq, this is what I am looking at for footguard with some LR support:

CCS-ML, Standard
CCS-3X PG, Standard
Marbo
SS-Meltas
PCS-4X MG
3X IS-MG, MB
2X SWS-PG's
PCS-AC, 2X Flamer
2X IS-MB, Flamer, LC
2X Vendettas
2X Baslisk
Exterminator-LC, MM Sponsons
Executioner-PC Sponsons
Aegis Defense line-Quad Gun

The idea is that the Basi's and the stationary IS's along with the CCS with ML sit back and shoot from range. The LR's, CCS with PG's, and the mobile IS's and SWS's advance forward. Yes, I realize I will be taking a lot of casualties, but I will have a ton of swinging power.

Looks alright. In an objectives game, if you're playing a crafty opponent, just be aware that they may try to gun down your mobile scoring (IS) units first. However, more than likely many players will not be able to resist going after your big targets so it could work well against a lot of folks. I would try to be careful with the mobile INF the first turn or two however. Or maybe they could sprint to a middle piece of terrain and go to ground a turn or two also.

Has anyone tried using a standard LRMBT recently? I think it would still be effective, probably just not as good a buy for the points, or as effective as an Executioner taking out MEQ and not as good against less than MEQ as an Exeterminator.

It's also a shame, My favorite tank for a long time has been the Demolisher with plasma cannons. However I may shelve it for the time being.

With cover being harder to come by and targeted shots AND heavy russes, don't forget to use them as cover and to keep your commissars/sgts out of LOS and in cover. A conscript squad blocking the front and the sides of the russ and provididng cover for a power blob with the important guys hiding behind the Russ is a mass of slow marching death.