I'm a little confused by the recent FAQ that says that Dark Eldar do not count for the Fortune psychic power. How is this supposed to work? Is it that Dark Eldar units are not Eldar units for the psychic power or is it that any Eldar unit with a Dark Eldar IC is fine? Is it somewhere in between, where an Eldar unit with a Dark Eldar IC that gets Fortune only affects the Eldar models and not the Dark Eldar models?

Also, how does this affect the Avatar Inspiring Presence rule? That was not given a specific ruling in the new FAQ.

Per the FAQ Dark Eldar =/= Eldar. Therefore anything in the Eldar codex that specifies "Eldar" can only affect Eldar. As it stands, for the purposes of Farseer Powers Dark Eldar cannot be targeted, however, if a Dark Eldar IC is joined to a nEldar unit he still benefits. I think.

Happyjew wrote:
Per the FAQ Dark Eldar =/= Eldar. Therefore anything in the Eldar codex that specifies "Eldar" can only affect Eldar. As it stands, for the purposes of Farseer Powers Dark Eldar cannot be targeted, however, if a Dark Eldar IC is joined to a nEldar unit he still benefits. I think.

So ANY IC that joins an Eldar unit can benefit from rules that target 'an Eldar unit'?

Yes, due to the fact that an IC is considered to be a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

For an example of an ally IC not benefiting see IG FAQ regarding orders. It specifies that only IG benefit from the orders.

You can't target Dark Eldar Units with fortune or guide. DE ICs are considered to be part of an Eldar unit if they join them. If you cast fortune or guide on an Eldar unit with a DE IC attached he will gain the benefit of the power.

 BlueDagger wrote:
You can't target Dark Eldar Units with fortune or guide. DE ICs are considered to be part of an Eldar unit if they join them. If you cast fortune or guide on an Eldar unit with a DE IC attached he will gain the benefit of the power.

The FAQ pretty clearly says guide and fortune has no effect on dark eldar. It doesn't give any exclusion for ICs attached to eldar units, it just flat out states they gain no benefit from those powers.

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Where does it say no effect? It only says that Dark Eldar =/= Eldar for Fortune and Guide which can only target an Eldar unit.

Kevlar wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
You can't target Dark Eldar Units with fortune or guide. DE ICs are considered to be part of an Eldar unit if they join them. If you cast fortune or guide on an Eldar unit with a DE IC attached he will gain the benefit of the power.

The FAQ pretty clearly says guide and fortune has no effect on dark eldar. It doesn't give any exclusion for ICs attached to eldar units, it just flat out states they gain no benefit from those powers.

Your confusion comes from not knowing the wording of Fortune Guide. The power must be cast on a friendly Eldar unit. The FAQ states that Dark Eldar do not count as Eldar for the psy powers. This means you can not target a DE unit with fortune/guide, it does not mean that they can not benefit from it while they are attached to an Eldar you unit. You target units, not ICs.

It only refers to "eldar" in the targetting part of the rule, not using the reroll? I figured they were tightening up some of the more abusive combos especially in lieu of the change to fateweaver. His power only effects units from "Codex:Chaos Demons" so no more rerolling Tzeentch terminators...

Look at IG:

IG FAQ wrote:Q: Can an allied Independent Character benefit from Imperial Guard
Orders if they have joined an Imperial Guard Squad that successfully
receives an order? (p29)
A: No.

Obviously, if DE were not meant to benefit they would have included something like this as well. And as you pointed out they changed Fateweaver to specifically affect only CD.

Kevlar wrote:
It only refers to "eldar" in the targetting part of the rule, not using the reroll? I figured they were tightening up some of the more abusive combos especially in lieu of the change to fateweaver. His power only effects units from "Codex:Chaos Demons" so no more rerolling Tzeentch terminators...

There is a big difference between a power that had to be manfested and cast on a unit vs an always on bubble that effects all untis around you.

Simple matter is that you can easly get around that combo by adjusting your LoS, use barrage, or angle the attack so the shadowfield model isn't the bullet soak.

 BlueDagger wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
You can't target Dark Eldar Units with fortune or guide. DE ICs are considered to be part of an Eldar unit if they join them. If you cast fortune or guide on an Eldar unit with a DE IC attached he will gain the benefit of the power.

The FAQ pretty clearly says guide and fortune has no effect on dark eldar. It doesn't give any exclusion for ICs attached to eldar units, it just flat out states they gain no benefit from those powers.

Your confusion comes from not knowing the wording of Fortune Guide. The power must be cast on a friendly Eldar unit. The FAQ states that Dark Eldar do not count as Eldar for the psy powers. This means you can not target a DE unit with fortune/guide, it does not mean that they can not benefit from it while they are attached to an Eldar you unit. You target units, not ICs.

See I disagree with this. the way the rule is written, DE can't claim any benefit from Fortune and Guide. If a unit with containing a DE character gets to to benefit from either of these powers, then the Eldar members of the unit should get the benefit but not the DE character as DE don't count as Eldar for Fortune and Guide.

The way I read it, it's a clear prohibition. No leeway there at all.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

The rulebook clearly states in the Independant character special rules section that when and IC joins any unit it becomes that unit for ALL RULE PURPOSES.

With this FAQ they were clearing up the question of since eldar and dark eldar were the same race, does that mean that codex eldar powers that target friendly eldar models/units also target dark eldar. Because they are still eldar. Just dark. But in reality they are 2 different teams. So that doesnt fly.

Why would they "BAN" fortune and guide from targeting Dark eldar but not also mention Tau. So are you trying to say that Tau Independant characters who join a squad of eldar CAN benefit from fortune and guide where as DE IC's who do the same thing are not allowed to?

No. That makes no sense. This was just clearing up that codex powers can not benefit a dark eldar units. So I cant cast fortune or guide on a friendly dark ELDAR unit just becuase the word ELDAR is in the name.

You can still cast those powers and any powers for that matter on your own units even when a battle brother allied IC joins your unit.

@Razgriz22

Yeah, what you say makes sense. I guess I just wasn't thinking of it in the right way.

Thanks for the reply.

I am used to a lot of sarcasim on this site :-p

But I will assume you weren't being sarcastic.

What I said was basically my interpretation. I suppose after reading it over and over agian I could see how someone would be able to argue it against me though. I feel like what I said is what GW meant to get across. But In all honestly.... No one really knows what they actually MEAN to be saying lol.

I read that an Archon does not ever benefit from Fortune, even if attached to an eldar unit.

Are you referencing your Eldar codex as well?

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Fortune and Guide can only be cast on an Eldar unit, but they affect all the models in that unit. An Archon joined to an Eldar unit is still part of the unit.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Are you referencing your Eldar codex as well?

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Fortune and Guide can only be cast on an Eldar unit, but they affect all the models in that unit. An Archon joined to an Eldar unit is still part of the unit.

Thank you, you may have just explained what I was trying to in much less words.

The FAQ does not specify the targeting of an Eldar / Dark Eldar unit, rather simply DE allies do no count as Eldar for those powers - so in a case of either faq > core or advanced > basic then it does not matter if a DEIC is attached to an Eldar unit that had Fortune / Guide cast upon it = Dark Eldar are not Eldar, and do not benefit from the rerolls.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
The FAQ does not specify the targeting of an Eldar / Dark Eldar unit, rather simply DE allies do no count as Eldar for those powers - so in a case of either faq > core or advanced > basic then it does not matter if a DEIC is attached to an Eldar unit that had Fortune / Guide cast upon it = Dark Eldar are not Eldar, and do not benefit from the rerolls.

Please state where it is ever said that DE or any non-Eldar model can not benefit from Fortune or Guide. The only limitation of Fortune and Guide per the Eldar codex is what units can be targeted for the power. No model from any codex is limited from benefiting from the power, just merely what can be targeted by the power. Thus no other codex's unit can be targeted by the power, but if you target an Eldar unit that has a DE or Tau IC attached, they will benefit from the power as they are a part of the Eldar unit being targeted.

What makes a unit an Eldar unit, and what makes a unit a Dark Eldar unit?

Since ICs are units, and a squads are a unit when they join together they are 2 units becoming one.

So my questrion is, if you have an Eldar IC attached to a DE squad what makes this a DE unit? If you have a DE IC in an Eldar squad what makes this an Eldar unit?

What about when you have an Eldar IC joined with a DE IC? Is this a DE unit or an Eldar unit?


To me when you have an DE IC join an Eldar unit they stop being strickly an Eldar unit and become a hybrid and neither pure Eldar or DE.

 Blackmoor wrote:
To me when you have an DE IC join an Eldar unit they stop being strickly an Eldar unit and become a hybrid and neither pure Eldar or DE.

So what you're saying is that an IC is not just a normal member of the squad after it joins?

Read the independent character USR in the 6th edition rulebook. It should clear that up for you.

When an IC joins a unit, it is counted as being that unit for all rule purposes. An eldar unit with a DE IC in it is still and Eldar unit. The IC is treated as eldar for "all rule purposes"

at it again cheesy eldar? *Sigh* for real please stop trying to obtain a 2+ re-rollable invul and just realize they are saying "Dark eldar + Eldar magic = no" everyone but apparently people who use these tactics agree with the intention of the FAQ. Again feel free to cling to it but this furtherly highlights why i don't enjoy games with Eldar or Dark Eldar in all my games I have yet to run into someone who thinks 175 pt tag team of 1 farseer with fortune and an archon with Shadow field isn't just a smidge beyond the scope of the game's intention.

Please feel free to do what you want But you mustn't like making friends when you play either if you are deadset on finding loopholes despite the FAQ.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
at it again cheesy eldar? *Sigh* for real please stop trying to obtain a 2+ re-rollable invul and just realize they are saying "Dark eldar + Eldar magic = no" everyone but apparently people who use these tactics agree with the intention of the FAQ. Again feel free to cling to it but this furtherly highlights why i don't enjoy games with Eldar or Dark Eldar in all my games I have yet to run into someone who thinks 175 pt tag team of 1 farseer with fortune and an archon with Shadow field isn't just a smidge beyond the scope of the game's intention.

Please feel free to do what you want But you mustn't like making friends when you play either if you are deadset on finding loopholes despite the FAQ.

Assigning bias where there isn't any isn't a good way to argue.
Offering rules to the contrary is a good way to argue.

Would you like to do some of the latter instead of just the former?

I swear you try to find where I post just to come say things against what I write.

Do you play Eldar? Your name, picture, and sig all suggest not. Why does an ork player lurk so much in eldar treads?

If you do play eldar, I havent seen much of anything that you have contributed to the threads you have posted in.

I refuse to argue this rule with you.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:


Please feel free to do what you want But you mustn't like making friends when you play either if you are deadset on finding loopholes despite the FAQ.

Page 39 bottom of the IC square on the left hand side doesn't seem to be a loophole in the least. In fact it appears to be just RAW.

"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
at it again cheesy eldar? *Sigh* for real please stop trying to obtain a 2+ re-rollable invul and just realize they are saying "Dark eldar + Eldar magic = no" everyone but apparently people who use these tactics agree with the intention of the FAQ. Again feel free to cling to it but this furtherly highlights why i don't enjoy games with Eldar or Dark Eldar in all my games I have yet to run into someone who thinks 175 pt tag team of 1 farseer with fortune and an archon with Shadow field isn't just a smidge beyond the scope of the game's intention.

Please feel free to do what you want But you mustn't like making friends when you play either if you are deadset on finding loopholes despite the FAQ.

Assigning bias where there isn't any isn't a good way to argue.
Offering rules to the contrary is a good way to argue.

Would you like to do some of the latter instead of just the former?

Thank you.

And thank you for also re-stating that specific rule again. As I already referenced it above. But maybe it takes more then one person referencing a rule to give it validity?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:


Please feel free to do what you want But you mustn't like making friends when you play either if you are deadset on finding loopholes despite the FAQ.

Page 39 bottom of the IC square on the left hand side doesn't seem to be a loophole in the least. In fact it appears to be just RAW.

"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

Correct yet the FAQ posts itself clearly in contridiction to this point just not to the level you feel could decline you the abuse vantage correct? Let me ask you a simple question, do you think you really will be right for long? that's all no hate and yes I agree with your assertion of the rules but abuse smells up the game and it ultimately makes it clear to Tournament organizers and GW in general they didn't put it in bright enough red marker and just fix it again. Sometimes reading the winds is how to best sail and learn your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I swear you try to find where I post just to come say things against what I write.

Do you play Eldar? Your name, picture, and sig all suggest not. Why does an ork player lurk so much in eldar treads?

If you do play eldar, I havent seen much of anything that you have contributed to the threads you have posted in.

I refuse to argue this rule with you.

never even spoke to you or dragged you in on the conversation Razgriz22, But hey how's it going. Glad to see you aren't arguing with me, that's new For clarity I owned eldar for 3 years before the ork codex came out and I went back to the greenskins once and for all. I had plenty of time to learn how to use the army and was particularly fond of vypers, war-walkers, dire avengers and striking scorpions with obviously wanting farseers as my HQ. I found Wraithlords to be a broken monsterosity even then, I still see almost no point in warp spiders. Fire dragons are my death dealers to any enemy gambit or deathstar. Shining Spears were the strongest calvary style model in our army, Swooping hawks were too many points to make them worth it 9 times out of ten. Avatar was too weak for my liking and Howling Banshees were the badasses of the old edition IMO.

You seriously need to stop assuming anything and realize it's a public forum. I am entitled to go where I wish Raz and maybe you could see a trend of theme here but i tend to discourage people from giving into cheese and rule abuse because the army is still viable in traditional battles. So If your favorite thing to do is find the most broken and mine is dispel it then odds are we will cross paths often, Try and realize i represent another voice to your methods and that is all.

Happy games to all till the next FAQ boyz

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Correct yet the FAQ posts itself clearly in contridiction to this point just not to the level you feel could decline you the abuse vantage correct?

Absolutely false. The only thing the FAQ ruled on was targeting a DE unit.
A Tau or GK IC joined to an Eldar unit benefits, they just can't be targetted directly.

If you step back from the re-rollable 2++ hate you'll realize exactly what the FAQ does and doesn't do.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Correct yet the FAQ posts itself clearly in contridiction to this point just not to the level you feel could decline you the abuse vantage correct?

Absolutely false. The only thing the FAQ ruled on was targeting a DE unit.
A Tau or GK IC joined to an Eldar unit benefits, they just can't be targetted directly.

If you step back from the re-rollable 2++ hate you'll realize exactly what the FAQ does and doesn't do.

It isn't hate like I said, just disappointment. I understood what the rules did with this edition and it is clear what is in store for these tactics in the future a shame you feel so confident it won't but I assume we could both be right and not know it.

My reference points is seeing things like Codex: Space Wolves where it mentions only models from this codex can be impacted by rules or powers as well as IG and i'm sure other references. Because the idea in the FAq states this

"Do DE count as Allies for Eldar powers" the answer is no

If you aren't allies for the power the debunking theory is that no ally status means no power can be shared just like with allies of convenience and lower "no pyschich powers on the IC" agin you can feel free to interupt it but I have a feeling we will see the 175 pt combo vanish soon enough.

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Please read the actual Eldar codex powers wording and rules before you make a further fool of yourself. ANYTHING can benefit from fortune or guide, just only Eldar UNITs can be TARGETED for the power.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Nowhere does it state they're not Battlebrother allies.

it reads " count as Eldar" not allies.

So joining a DE IC to an Eldar Unit is still possible and the Unit is ELdar.
So the power works just fine.

I think serious tournament-goers will be able to read the FAQ correctly, for what it is, that Dark Eldar do not equal Eldar for Fortune, but targeting an Eldar unit with a Dark Eldar IC will be fine.

Unfortunately, it's only the die-hard players that will know this. If you take an Eldar/Dark Eldar unit to a regular tournament, most people will read the FAQ as 'Dark Eldar cannot get Fortune', and if you depend on that 2++ Shadowfield Archon, you will be TFG if you try to argue it based on the wording of this FAQ.

 BlueDagger wrote:
... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining eldar unit please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Once again this FAQ doesn't change any mechanic that made this combo possible.

The only thing that makes this combo work is DE IC being able to join Eldar unit. That's it.
Also, don't add to the faq something that it does not say. "DE can't count as any kind of ally" is a false statement. FAQ does not say this. It says that Dark Eldar allies don't count as Eldar NOT that DE don't count as allies. Those are completely different things.


And please don't instantly bash all the people who stand by this rule. Anybody here can easily turn it around and bash anybody that disagrees that he is a sore looser, simply is too lazy to try new strategy to counter this etc. etc. This is not a way to have a conversation.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

Truthfully you can do what you want, but at the end of the day in this forum only RAW matter.
The Eldar codex states units under that power, so therefore the unit will be affected. You may no longer cast it onto DE units which is why the faq is there in the first place.

how do you come up with 1/216 to fail a save? its always 1/36. If you look out sir his failed save, the shield still breaks. The shield reads "when it fails its save". So it still breaks 1/36 shots.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining eldar unit please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

I really have no clue what you are trying to argue here.

#1. DE are battle brothers with eldar and therefor are no enemies and can attach to eldar units. if the IC attached to an eldar unit he becomes a part of it for all game purposes until he leaves.
#2. Tactics = Not firing at a position where he is in front. Flank the unit, use barrage, assault the unit, and issue a challenge to single him out. if you kill the eldar unit, then he no longer has or can receive fortune.
#3. If you are trying to troll, man you are succeeding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
how do you come up with 1/216 to fail a save? its always 1/36. If you look out sir his failed save, the shield still breaks. The shield reads "when it fails its save". So it still breaks 1/36 shots.

Failed lookout sir, failed shadowfield, failled shadowfield = 1/216. If you have a reroll you always negate the first roll so that fail never actually occurs.

With the new rules to look out sir, you always do look out sir afterwards. Am I wrong with that?

It was after if the unit had the same save, now it is always before rolling saves.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
With the new rules to look out sir, you always do look out sir afterwards. Am I wrong with that?

Yes you are. With the new rules you always LOS first because it's always mixed save unit. You LOS after you assign wound, before you save.

EDIT: Damn you Happyjew, I will have ninja my revenge

So maybe I dont get look our sir then? if your baron/ archon is in the front. Lets say 5 wound are on the unit. You have to choose to keep the wound on the baron or look out sir it to the closest model. Why would you ever look out sir when the baron is the one with the 2+ save. If you look out sir it to someone else you would use their save wouldnt you?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
So maybe I dont get look our sir then? if your baron/ archon is in the front. Lets say 5 wound are on the unit. You have to choose to keep the wound on the baron or look out sir it to the closest model. Why would you ever look out sir when the baron is the one with the 2+ save. If you look out sir it to someone else you would use their save wouldnt you?

Indeed.
1/216 is a chance of IC not taking a wound (IF you don't want to keep a wound on him). IC not taking a wound is not the same as nobody takes a wound.
This makes his 2+ re-rollable a bit pointless because you only use it 1 in 6 times. You may however try to do it if you fear ID for example.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
If you aren't allies for the power the debunking theory is that no ally status means no power can be shared just like with allies of convenience and lower "no pyschich powers on the IC" agin you can feel free to interupt it but I have a feeling we will see the 175 pt combo vanish soon enough.

And if they FAQ it fine. I don't care one way or the other - it's strong but not game breakingly.
But with the rules as they stand now it's legal.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I am used to a lot of sarcasim on this site :-p

But I will assume you weren't being sarcastic.

What I said was basically my interpretation. I suppose after reading it over and over agian I could see how someone would be able to argue it against me though. I feel like what I said is what GW meant to get across. But In all honestly.... No one really knows what they actually MEAN to be saying lol.

No sarcasm intended at all.

Just saying I think I was incorrect.

Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

This does bring up odd possibilities though.

If a Farseer joins an Archon the unit is a DE unit.

If an Archon joins a Farseer the unit is an Eldar unit.

Units cannot join IC so we don't get that issue.

So if making a huge unit of ICs make sure you don't start with the Archon because then it will be a DE unit or whatever type of Codex you started with.

Still Eldar unit with Archon attach = Eldar unit and thus can be guided and fortuned.

Hwo do you kill it? Easy - take out the Farseer. No more 2++ save. Or take something that requires successful invulnerable save to be rerolled such as null zone. Rerolls cannot be rerolled again,

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Please read the the Independant character USR in the 6th edition rulebook. If you dont want to do that, there are a few posts on the first page highlighting the important part of that section.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

I had a look in the special rules section pg32 (small), and it states getting special rules granted by phycic powers and that the powers will govern its effects. So would that mean since it now states that DE=/=E the power would only effect the eldar part of the combo?

 Lichkitten wrote:
I had a look in the special rules section pg32 (small), and it states getting special rules granted by phycic powers and that the powers will govern its effects. So would that mean since it now states that DE=/=E the power would only effect the eldar part of the combo?

No. That is what we are saying here. That rule in there states that IC's who join a unit become that unit for ALL RULE PURPOSES. So when the codex eldar power targets the eldar unit with a battlebrother IC (even Tau), the unit as a whole is considered still fully eldar because the IC is treated as part of that unit FOR ALL RULE PURPOSES. This is what we are stressing here.

The FAQ has no relation to this topic. The FAQ is targeting people who were trying to cast fortune or guide on ravagers, raiders filled with kabolites, venoms, any dark eldar unit. But since when an IC joins a unit it is treated as part of that unit FOR ALL RULE PURPOSES, that IC for rule purposes is no longer Dark Eldar. But is instead Eldar like the unit it is in.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So he counts as part of the unit, but he still counts as a "Dark Eldar Character" which specifically disallows fortune and guide from being cast on him, and the unit as well since he is a part of it....

Kevlar wrote:
"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

I don't think this means what you think it means. He is a part of the unit and he still gets the benefits (and drawbacks) of being a character. In every situation where GW did not want an IC of a different army to benefit from a special rule, they specifically stated that the IC did not benefit from the rule (see IG FAQ regarding Orders). All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

Kevlar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So he counts as part of the unit, but he still counts as a "Dark Eldar Character" which specifically disallows fortune and guide from being cast on him, and the unit as well since he is a part of it....

And the rules for characters say nothing that has anything to do with any of this.... Show me some facts here. Reference your claims with rules.

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?

Kevlar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?

Wrong. If they're a member of an Eldar unit, that Eldar unit is targeted and all its normal members receive the benefit.

It has been pointed out under the IC rules. While a member of the unit they are a normal member of that unit for all rules purposes, and they also follow the rules for characters. Not characters of their respective codex, just characters.

We have referenced that page multiple times. And the exact line.

PG 39. Independent character special rule. Its a large box taking up over half the page. The last sentence in the left column.

I quote directly "While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

It's put very simple. That unit is an Eldar unit. So when a Non-Eldar IC moves into coherency with an eldar unit and is declared as joining the eldar unit, it counts as part of that unit (an eldar unit) for all rule purposes.

So if an Autarch joins a Dark Eldar unit with x number of pain tokens, does he benefit because of the whole attached all rule purposes ?

He would benefit from the pain tokens.... If he had the Unique special rule power from pain. But he doesnt.

Power from Pain is very specific on who can benefit, and what happens if you have a unit with the rule and an IC without (or vice versa).

But yet Fortune is a specific Eldar unit rule and the DE IC would benefit when attached ?.. erm... just seems there is a clash in mechanics / views of the rules.

DEIC joins an Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Fortune / Guide ...should give way then to... EIC joins a Dark Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Power From Pain.

Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Power from Pain and some without has a pain token, does the effect it gives apply to every model in the unit or just to the models with the Power from Pain special rule? (p25)
A: It only applies to the models with the Power from Pain special rule.

So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
But yet Fortune is a specific Eldar unit rule and the DE IC would benefit when attached ?.. erm... just seems there is a clash in mechanics / views of the rules.

DEIC joins an Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Fortune / Guide ...should give way then to... EIC joins a Dark Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Power From Pain.

Unless specifically stated, special rules for a unit do not carry over to IC joining that unit and vice-versa. If you had a unit whose models all had the Relentless USR and an IC without Relentless joined that unit, he would not gain Relentless.

As for Fortune, it is a Psychic Power, not a special rule. It is limited in that it can only target Eldar units (i.e those taken from Codex: Eldar). As any IC joined to a unit is treated as a member of that unit for all rules purposes, the unit is in question is still Eldar and therefore can be targeted by Fortune.

Fortune is a psychic power that targets units. Power from pain is a unit specific special rule. They are very different things. The rules are quite clear in this situation.The FAQ is supposed to help cover that the dark eldar codex and the eldar codex are 2 different things. Eldar =/= dark eldar. People were trying to say that they were one in the same because the word eldar was used in both.

Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

And yes, I understand that Fortune / Guide are psychic powers - but within them are specific rules that are covered in the rules: rerolls ... and how they apply to Eldar units.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

No. Apples and oranges.
The fortune/guide FAQ only relates to targeting. Once the Eldar unit is targeted the entire unit benefits. There's no extra requirement once the unit is "hit".
Remember, this isnt just DE ICs but any Eldar battle brothers.

Power from Pain not only requires you to be a member of a unit, it also requires you to have the PfP rule.
It'd be like arguing a Tau IC could benefit from ATSKNF.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

I guess I could see where you are trying to compare the two. But if the FAQ was written to nerf 2++ re-rolls it would be more specific towards that. Why would it talk about fortune AND guide? As you can take prescience and "guide" DE anyway. This FAW is highly relevant to the argument it was addressing. People are trying to dig things out of it that it wasn't addressing. It very clearly answers the question that eldar =/= dark eldar when reading the Codex powers guide and fortune (which are the only two that say target friendly eldar unit). That is what the FAQ was addressing.

 Razgriz22 wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

I guess I could see where you are trying to compare the two. But if the FAQ was written to nerf 2++ re-rolls it would be more specific towards that. Why would it talk about fortune AND guide? As you can take prescience and "guide" DE anyway. This FAW is highly relevant to the argument it was addressing. People are trying to dig things out of it that it wasn't addressing. It very clearly answers the question that eldar =/= dark eldar when reading the Codex powers guide and fortune (which are the only two that say target friendly eldar unit). That is what the FAQ was addressing.

Agreed through and through, if they wanted to nerf the 2++ rerollable save altogether than They'd have worded it like the IG faq.

Alot of people don't understand that an IC attaches to and becomes part of said unit. I can see the confusion but it's wrong.

 Blackmoor wrote:
What makes a unit an Eldar unit, and what makes a unit a Dark Eldar unit?

Since ICs are units, and a squads are a unit when they join together they are 2 units becoming one.

So my questrion is, if you have an Eldar IC attached to a DE squad what makes this a DE unit? If you have a DE IC in an Eldar squad what makes this an Eldar unit?

What about when you have an Eldar IC joined with a DE IC? Is this a DE unit or an Eldar unit?


To me when you have an DE IC join an Eldar unit they stop being strickly an Eldar unit and become a hybrid and neither pure Eldar or DE.

The rulebook, however, says that it is the IC that joins the unit, and not the unit that is forming a retinue for the IC. This would suggest that the IC forgoes his "status" and gains a new one. (In this case, ceases being Dark Eldar and is Eldar).

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

And yes, I understand that Fortune / Guide are psychic powers - but within them are specific rules that are covered in the rules: rerolls ... and how they apply to Eldar units.

No.

If they wanted the DE not to benefit, they'd write it explicitly.

Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

 Oaka wrote:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for the targeting of Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

Italics added by me.

I say targeting because (iirc - I don't have the codex available) that's all that Fortune restricts.
Because, again, the argument against is that a Tau IC would benefit from Fortune fine. Just not DE.

Kevlar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?

If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

This is the same thing. The unit is targeted for the power. The IC is "hit" by that power along with the rest of the unit.

 Foo wrote:
If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

Not in 6th edition you can't.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Foo wrote:
If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

Not in 6th edition you can't.

You can wound the squad bit can only allocate wounds to the visible model.

 Oaka wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

Unless there is some way to pick and choose which models in the unit are targetted, which there isn't, there is no way this can work.

Same would hold true if there was a Tau in the unit. He would still be a non-eldar. Those just didn't need an FAQ because no one considered Tau as Eldar to begin with. The FAQ was needed because some people were trying to get away with saying dark eldar were still eldar.

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

Kevlar wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

Unless there is some way to pick and choose which models in the unit are targetted, which there isn't, there is no way this can work.

Same would hold true if there was a Tau in the unit. He would still be a non-eldar. Those just didn't need an FAQ because no one considered Tau as Eldar to begin with. The FAQ was needed because some people were trying to get away with saying dark eldar were still eldar.

Go to the rule book, look up Independant Characters. In the bottom left hand of the box, read that rule. It's been quoted several times Kevlar.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

No, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule purpose where he stops being a dark eldar. You are saying he becomes a normal part of that unit, ie an "eldar". He never becomes an "eldar". The unit is now a mixed unit of eldar and dark eldar models.

If you had a unit of 1 farseer and one archon what unit type would those be?

It would depend who you declared joined with who if it was only 2 IC's

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

No, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule purpose where he stops being a dark eldar. You are saying he becomes a normal part of that unit, ie an "eldar". He never becomes an "eldar". The unit is now a mixed unit of eldar and dark eldar models.

If you had a unit of 1 farseer and one archon what unit type would those be?

I'll go with "who the hell cares if he is Dark Eldar for 500" (pardon to those to young or out of country to understand the Jeopardy joke)

It doesn't matter if he was a Purple Snuffle Eater from the Grazborgan Codex. If he is a battle brother of Eldar and an IC he can benefit from Fortune. I repeat once again THERE IS NO RESTRICTION on non Eldar benefiting from fortune or Guide. It only states that you can not target non Eldar units for fortune/guide. If the IC attaches to an Eldar unit who cares what the IC is, you target te eldar unit not the IC.

You target the unit as a whole. And the unit as a whole is considered dark eldar due to page 39 in the USR's regarding IC's

 Razgriz22 wrote:
You target the unit as a whole. And the unit as a whole is considered dark eldar due to page 39 in the USR's regarding IC's

You got that backwards. The unit is an Eldar unit which can be targeted with no restrictions. The only time an issue occurs is if a Tau/DE IC and an Eldar IC are joined (in which case I would not use the power on that group just to avoid conflict, but that's just me.).

Lol idk why I wrote "dark eldar" I meant to say ** eldar**.

Because it is late and you re sleepy?

Lol or because we've gone over this do many times that my brain is fried

 Razgriz22 wrote:
Lol or because we've gone over this so many times that my brain is fried

FTFY

As an aside I think we are getting a bit off topic. Where were we?

Also reapplying with a mobile device. Hmph. I cant keep up

This is looking pretty circular at this point.

Thread terminated.