I got into an argument on whether the Imperial Guard could win against Clone Troopers. This would involve only Guard infantry, their vehicles and aircraft. The same goes for the Clone Troopers, which may or may not be led by Jedi. No spacecraft or starships, or other specialist forces (Astartes, Sisters, Titans, etc.) but the Guard can deploy their own specialists (Sanctioned Psykers and such).
True...in fluff flak armor is las-resistant at the least, whereas Star Wars armor is completely useless. But this is a discussion, we should have more elaborate/comprehensive answers.
Guard have ogryns and also ratlings (similar to ewoks). Clones have super heavy Titan size walkers. Guard have fought armies much scarier and tougher than clones (see tyranids and demons)
I also think it bears mentioning that the clone trooper flier seems to be armed with rocket pods and the equivalent of a multi-laser on each wing. The vendetta gunship with its T/L lascanons and heavy bolters would give a slight advantage in air superiority to the guard.
What does the battlefield look like? I tend to think the guard is vastly better at using cover to their advantage, so it makes a difference if there is a lot of natural cover or not.
Yeah but clone flyer's armour is a useful as the clone armour the troopers wear; a Valkirye might be able to rub off a few rocket shots and keep on flying.
also, Guard are real humans so they can think out fo the box sometimes (despite training ,forcing' them to obey without question) ; clones are 'blocked' from thinking too much 'naturally' from 'birth'.
And cover: I rarely recall a clone using cover and more running toward the combat droids, standing 10 feet from the droids and firing wildy at them as the droid do the same.
Guard = limitless horde
Clones = less than above, I'd have to give it *eventually* to the guard by just sheer attrition if you have like everything at the same time.
Also, with the new psy powers and no psy defences by the clones, they will definately get trolled quite a few times by the primaris or even psyker squads. No force defense in your example
Purifier wrote: What does the battlefield look like? I tend to think the guard is vastly better at using cover to their advantage, so it makes a difference if there is a lot of natural cover or not.
Multiple terrain...desert, jungle, mountain, polar, river valley, coastal plain, grassland, hilly forest, etc.
The clones are poorly trained (They where marching in formation while in combat) with poor armor (can't stop a direct blaster hit) and have weapons slightly inferior to the Lasgun. They lack heavy armor that the IG have, the battle clearly favors the Imperial Guard. Hands down the clones lose, hard.
Only going by what I recall from the movies, but star war vehicles all seem to fall under the light vehicle category in 40K standards. Being as big as a titian doesn’t mean they are as formable as a titian. Based on the performance of the imperial walkers in the Empire Strikes Back, I would say that they could be shot to pieces with concentrated heavy bolter fire and taken down with a ground assault from IG with grenades.
I think the imperial guard outshines the star war storm troopers in almost every method of comparison (weapons, armory, tactics, vehicles, training, etc). A lasgun is a much better weapon than an imperial blaster (IMHO).
Grunt13 wrote: Being as big as a titian doesn’t mean they are as formable as a titian. Based on the performance of the imperial walkers in the Empire Strikes Back, I would say that they could be shot to pieces with concentrated heavy bolter fire and taken down with a ground assault from IG with grenades.
How about the ones from Attack of the Clones? They seemed nasty.
Clone warriors are some troopers that are attempting to quash a few localised rebellions (and rather struggling at that).
The Imperial Guard is a massive, galaxy spanning army that is capable of fighting a million wars simultaneously against everything in the galaxy (and several things that aren't), and only slowly lose ground.
If the clone army attacked the Imperium, the guard would go "Oh, another tiny warband amongst hundreds of thousands. Add it to the list and we'll see if we can get around to it sometime this century."
More or less, the clones would ricochet off the guard without all that many people noticing.
Ailaros wrote: Agreed.
More or less, the clones would ricochet off the guard without all that many people noticing.
'cept the ARC Troopers. They have enough Plot Power to defeat an IG regiment, so if anything, a whole army of ARC-s should have the chance against the IG.
sure, they would arrive and butcher the local planetary PDF to a man without taking casualties, but then Yarrick the Plot-Invincible One and 1 billion armageddon legionnaires would show up.
Or just Marbo. Established fluff has him single-handedly destroying entire armies.
Grunt13 wrote: Being as big as a titian doesn’t mean they are as formable as a titian. Based on the performance of the imperial walkers in the Empire Strikes Back, I would say that they could be shot to pieces with concentrated heavy bolter fire and taken down with a ground assault from IG with grenades.
How about the ones from Attack of the Clones? They seemed nasty.
My impression is that most of the vehicles in star wars are durable enough to stand up against blaster fire, but anything remotely approaching anti-armor inflicts heavy damage.
I don’t really see the addition of jedi knights helping the clone army that much. Weren’t all the jedis slaughtered by this same clone army? It’s debatably that lightsabers would even stop a lasgun shot. And even if they could, what stops a single IG from switching to full auto and saturating the jedis? In the movies, a handful of jedis are fighting squads of storm troops or droids deflecting about 3 to 4 shots a second in a display of movie awesomeness. A lasgun on full auto in the hands of a single imperial guardsman would be sending 20 to 30 shots a second at the unarmored guy running around with the glowing sword.
compare a Master Jedi to a squad of death cult assassins in how formidable they are. What happens when they get in on the Guard, an since when does a Las Gun have a full auto setting last time I checked they get one measly shot and then two if they are within the Jedi's charge range. Someone mentioned that the Jedi carried around a glowing sword, I'm sorry a Lightsaber would cut a power sword in half. An since we are talking about the empire why couldn't a bunch of Sith apprentices be leading them, force lightning FTW.
Guard would win hands down due to sheer numbers but I don't think you are giving the Empire's troops enough credit.
Ailaros wrote: Read the OP. It's not "who would win, guardsmen or jedi?" it's "who would win, guardsmen or clone troopers?".
Yes an the conversation has evolved to include Jedi, so I commented on whether Jedi involvement would alter the course of things. People have also mentioned using Ratlings an Orgryns.
In an all encompasing war The Imperial Guard would smother the Empire, but in a small skirmishes I believe it would be closer Jedi or no Jedi.
Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).
Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.
Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.
If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.
compare a Master Jedi to a squad of death cult assassins in how formidable they are. What happens when they get in on the Guard, an since when does a Las Gun have a full auto setting last time I checked they get one measly shot and then two if they are within the Jedi's charge range. Someone mentioned that the Jedi carried around a glowing sword, I'm sorry a Lightsaber would cut a power sword in half. An since we are talking about the empire why couldn't a bunch of Sith apprentices be leading them, force lightning FTW.
Guard would win hands down due to sheer numbers but I don't think you are giving the Empire's troops enough credit.
In 40k, weapons fire in bursts. The shuriken catapult is Assault 2, that doesn’t mean they only fire two actual disks a round, dozens if not hundreds of disks are actually fired. Full auto is depicted in the novels and other fluff as a setting that the lasguns have in order to fire a spread of shots at a rate of rounds per second that exceeds the the fastest machine guns in the modern world. Relying on a lightsaber to block a lasgun on full auto would be like standing in a tropical storm and trying to stay dry by deflecting the rain drops.
Death cults are augmented humans - they are operating at a super human level of reflexes and skill gifted to them by their alterations. I don;t recall ever seeing a jedi moving five times faster than is humanly possible via the force. And even giving them a death cultist level of abilities, they are not likely to inflict a noteworthy level of damage on the IG.
How the lightsaber would react to a power sword is open to conjecture in the extreme, but in the star wars universe there exist an assortment physical material that will stop and deflect a lightsaber. Material swords and armor exist that will contest the lightsaber, meaning that a guy with a normal sword made out to this material could get into a sword fight with a jedi and not damage his weapon. And the lightsabers are not the "I get to cut everything in half" weapon they are perceived to be, durable material offer resistance to a them.
Ailaros wrote:Read the OP. It's not "who would win, guardsmen or jedi?" it's "who would win, guardsmen or clone troopers?".
Just throwing this out there, the First Gen Clone Troopers were highly trained in Mandalorian battle tactics, even to the point of singing Mandalorian battle chants. The second and third generations were the ones that were "less trained" since they were created faster and put less emphesis on their Mandalorian training. Also, don't forget the Clone Commanders like Cody, Bacara, and Bly who received even more training from both Jango Fett and their Jedi Commanders. I'm pretty sure people are underestimating how much damage AT-TEs along with the TX-130 tank and LAAT air support could actually do. However, I do agree that the IG would eventually win, but I believe only due their numbers and their willingness to glass planets.
mega_bassist wrote: Just throwing this out there, the First Gen Clone Troopers were highly trained in Mandalorian battle tactics, even to the point of singing Mandalorian battle chants. The second and third generations were the ones that were "less trained" since they were created faster and put less emphesis on their Mandalorian training. Also, don't forget the Clone Commanders like Cody, Bacara, and Bly who received even more training from both Jango Fett and their Jedi Commanders. I'm pretty sure people are underestimating how much damage AT-TEs along with the TX-130 tank and LAAT air support could actually do. However, I do agree that the IG would eventually win, but I believe only due their numbers and their willingness to glass planets.
Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.
Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.
What people do not realize is the above is not true.
The movies only show the blaster hits that kill people, they do not show the millions of blaster hits that are absorbed by the armor.
a 40K movie would show the same thing. most of the Lasgun hits that were stopped by armor would not be shown onscreen.
It captures the action better to just show the ones that get through.
I've never seen the armour stop a blaster bolt and considering lasguns are stronger than blaster bolts (I've never seen a blaster bolt take limbs off) then we can safely assume it's not gonna make much of a difference apart from making them look a bit cooler.
Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.
What people do not realize is the above is not true.
The movies only show the blaster hits that kill people, they do not show the millions of blaster hits that are absorbed by the armor.
a 40K movie would show the same thing. most of the Lasgun hits that were stopped by armor would not be shown onscreen.
It captures the action better to just show the ones that get through.
Because anyone getting shot in the SW movies just drops dead, I dont ever recall seeing a clone trooper shaking of a blaster round and walk on after that. So your argument is not really that strong.
Beside IG has fought and beaten things fare worse than some bunch of cloned criminals
They show it Clone Wars several times. Plus, Clone armor is modular, could withstand a vacuum, had air filtration, and it's own oxygen supply. And magnetic boots(for what it's worth).
Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.
Actually, if you watch the boarding action in Episode 4 (storm troopers vs Rebel crew) and (for some unfathomable reason) pause the fight and go frame by frame, you will see several blaster bolts deflecting off of the stormtrooper's armor. I'm serious. I did it once. Yes, I'm a huge nerd, and no, I don't have a life. The armor works like real modern armor; most pistol shots will bounce off it or be absorbed, but a high-power rifle round will go right through (remember, the Rebels in the opening battle were using pistols, not rifles). In the battles we see in the movies, most everyone involved is using a rifle of some sort, so the shots all go right through. But in that very first battle, the Rebels only drop two stormtoopers, despite filling that corridor with more laser bolts than oxygen. So I'd say that the Clone Trooper armor works reasonably well, or even comparably to flak armor.
I'm not sure where all this "Clone Troopers have underpowered guns" business comes from, though. Their guns kill what they hit, if what they hit is human sized (excepting for specially armored things like those big grey kill bot droids). I'd say they are comparable to a lasgun. We see some of them fire bursts as well, so it's not like the IG have a monopoly on full auto, either. Their vehicles are immune to small arms fire, but heavier weapons do penetrate (kinda like actual vehicles). Their walkers are resistant to heavy weapons, though. The Rebels in Empire were using anti-tank gun emplacements to do absolutely nothing to the AT-ATs. The tow-cable trip attack and meltabombs used in CC were what took down the 2 walkers in Empire, not the heavy weapons of the Rebels. So again, I'd say their armor and air support is comparable.
What ISNT comparable, and what gives the IG the win in absolutely every single battle is the sheer volume of manpower they can throw at a problem. In Attack of the Clowns the Clone Army is numbered at ONE MILLION troops. And that took 10 years to make. The Imperial Guard loses that many men to clerical error in a year, and doesn't even notice the loss. The IG would hit the Clone troops with a force roughly 10 times larger (at minimum) with roughly equivalent gear. That's not a fight the Clones are going to win, even without accounting for terrain (fight em on a jungle planet and send in the Catachans) or the relative skill level and training of the men (the average IG trooper being more highly trained than a vat-job clone).
I love Star Wars, but as always in these fights, the Imperium of Man wins.
Oh, and before you say anything about like "..but flak armor actually works!" I would like you to consider that against a lasgun, flak armor works only 33% of the time. Against a boltgun it works exactly 0% of the time.
McGibs wrote: Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).
Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.
Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.
If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.
yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.
Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.
Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.
Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.
Oh, and before you say anything about like "..but flak armor actually works!" I would like you to consider that against a lasgun, flak armor works only 33% of the time. Against a boltgun it works exactly 0% of the time.
No fair using logic!!!
Also I would just roll those gungan balls of death at the guard an it would be all over.
McGibs wrote: Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it. In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).
Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.
Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers). Blasters are just... garbage weapons.
If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves. Argument over.
yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.
Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.
Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.
He never rebutted the claim that jedi leads clone troopers. He's just saying that if we are going to include allied elements in the star wars forces, might as well give the IG some allied forces as well.
No, the clone troopers can't beat the IG hands down. IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.
And why bring Astartes into this? There have been no mentioning of Astartes. Well, maybe except in that Space Wolves statement, but that was only in passing. Are you trying to compare Astartes to Clone Troopers? Because you are sorely mistaken.
And I'm going to take that "finecrap figurines" thing as derogatory, and as such you have lost any chance of being taken seriously.
Can we just kill this thread already? They never end well.
The game math doesn’t compare to expected results in a realistic combat. If it did, then a normal human would have one out of nine chance of killing a fully armored space marine by hitting him with a thrown rock. Power armor gives more than a 66 percent chance of saving against a spork attack in a realist setting, but not during a 40K game.
Grunt13 wrote: The game math doesn’t compare to expected results in a realistic combat. If it did, then a normal human would have one out of nine chance of killing a fully armored space marine by hitting him with a thrown rock. Power armor gives more than a 66 percent chance of saving against a spork attack in a realist setting, but not during a 40K game.
Not to mention that bolters have a range of approximately 168 feet, plasma weapons have a 1 in 6 chance of self detonating and its completely possible for a IG to survive, completely unscathed, a direct hit from a doomsday cannon.
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McGibs wrote: Youre making fun of me playing with tiny plastic men....
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
McGibs wrote: Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).
Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.
Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.
If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.
yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.
Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.
Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.
He never rebutted the claim that jedi leads clone troopers. He's just saying that if we are going to include allied elements in the star wars forces, might as well give the IG some allied forces as well.
No, the clone troopers can't beat the IG hands down. IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.
And why bring Astartes into this? There have been no mentioning of Astartes. Well, maybe except in that Space Wolves statement, but that was only in passing.
Are you trying to compare Astartes to Clone Troopers? Because you are sorely mistaken.
And I'm going to take that "finecrap figurines" thing as derogatory, and as such you have lost any chance of being taken seriously.
Can we just kill this thread already? They never end well.
Why the Finecrap comment? Because his word is law there is no debate Imperial Guard win. Thats why I said after he mentioned bringing Space Wolves in, bringing in a frickin Emperor Battle Titan.
Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.
I was not trying to say that clone troopers can compare to Astartes but Imperial Guard fight on there own a lot of the time, you don't see armies of Jedi running around, Jedi usually lead clone troopers. You don't always see Astartes leading Imp Guard.
You are absolutely right about ending this thread because this is a frikin warhammer site of course the Imperial Guard are going to win, as most of the comments in this thread have pointed out.
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
He is right about outnumbering them, training is about even, but not about the equipment. You can't compare a frikin Star Trek Phaser to a frikin Star Wars Blaster there is absolutely no way to actually compare the two.
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
Not really. I always saw a Clone Trooper as a mandalorian knock off. I mean Jango Fett is an absolute beast compared to your average Clone.
Granted, the Clone Troopers are probably more disciplined than the IG though.
McGibs wrote: Youre making fun of me playing with tiny plastic men....
on a 40k forum...
Yes, yes I am. I am also partaking in a debate on which fictional character will beat which fictional character. My comment was aimed at the fact that in your posts there is no debate, clone troopers will die horribly to the all mighty invincible Imperial Guard.
Wanna talk about who would win between Thor and Superman?
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
Not really. I always saw a Clone Trooper as a mandalorian knock off. I mean Jango Fett is an absolute beast compared to your average Clone.
Granted, the Clone Troopers are probably more disciplined than the IG though.
Ya just gotta love how both Jango an Boba bought the farm though.
Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.
Well, to be fair, the Jedi were basically butchered by the clones. And since clones are probably en-par with with the IG...yeah, a Guardsman could kill one.
Ok, not a Guardsman...more like a crap ton of them. Which you will always find.
Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.
Well, to be fair, the Jedi were basically butchered by the clones. And since clones are probably en-par with with the IG...yeah, a Guardsman could kill one.
Ok, not a Guardsman...more like a crap ton of them. Which you will always find.
There ya go a crap ton of them, not a silly cadian with a "full auto" lasgun.
Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.
Also specialists? Clones have Commandos, jetpack troopers, man portable mortar, laser gatling gun etc etc.
Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.
Also specialists? Clones have Commandos, jetpack troopers, man portable mortar, laser gatling gun etc etc.
That was what kinda set me off as well, with those stats a Tau Firewarrior can hand a Clone Warrior his ass.
-Raised with one geneotype, and severely vulnerable to biological attack. The guard would immediately take advantage of this.
-Their fleet can only make the jump to lightspeed. The guard can bend flakkin time and space by traveling in the warp.
Reasons why the Clones would kill guardsmen before they are exterminated:
"The best soldiers of the Galaxy"
A galaxy in a place far far away a long long time ago - Not the Imperium of our own milky way. Not even counting the famous forces of only 8 planets : Cadia, Krieg, Catachan, Armageddon, Vostroya, Elysia, Valhalla, and Tallaran - their grenadiers / home brew elites are the equivalent of any Clone in both skills and equipment.
Then there are the Stormtroopers raised from the elites of millions of other worlds.
Bottom line, 40k has plenty of homage to pay to Star Wars, but the Imperium would utterly annihilate the Empire like operation Desert Storm. Palpatine wouldn't even know who was invading him by the time the Hammer of the Emperor put his skull against an anvil.
Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.
Totally agree. They're Mandalore trained too! I think it should be
They have a high level of training, armor designed to go up against lasers, and blasters that can chew through hardened battle droids. Seems legit to me.
Harker could wipe a couple battalions of clone troopers single handedly. Marbo could probably infiltrate the death star, set it to self destruct and steal a shuttle off. Chenkov would just send overwhelming numbers. AT-ATs dont seem to have the heavy weaponry of a Titan. There doesn't seem to be anything clones could do about IG super heavies. I would like to see an Eversor vs Jedi battle.
Holy hell. Alright everyone listen up becasue I'm only going to say this nicely once. 40k beats any; ANY other Sc-Fi army out there.
Proof: Imperial Guard outnumber the Clones 10,000 to 1
You claim they are trained by Mandalorians and are hence Mandalorian. But remember Revan crushed the mandalorians durring the Mandalorian war. He did so with weaker, less trained, lower tech weapons. only advanced thing he imployed was the Shadow mass generator at Malachor V. .
Oh for the love of...look, to whoever mentioned Titans, Space Wolves/Astartes, or warp travel, please do not involve them. This is about the Imperial Guard only - aircraft and transports, but no starships/Titans/Astartes.
I remember reading about clone/storm trooper armour once. It was hilarious. All this technical stuff about how good it is and all that.
The main issue is equipment. Lasguns are better than blasters, flak armour is better than whatever clones have. Yes, clones might be better-trained - but training doesn't matter when you're dead.
"Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one. "
Not in close combat. A Tyranid Warrior is an enormous (maybe about 15ft tall, judging by the model) scary death machine that can tear a man in half with no difficulty. It can also be killed in one round of shooting by two Guardsmen, despite its Space Marine-level armour.
A monk who has trained his entire life to be unbeatable in close combat still dies when he's shot in the head with a pistol. A Jedi can't block lasers, and even if they could, they couldn't block that many lasers, even disregarding the 'full auto' thing.
With their armour off and their weapons removed, one-on-one, a Trooper would undoubtedly win. They are supersoldiers of a kind, after all, and Guardsmen are semi-trained normal humans. It's just that the matchup between equipment (and army size, obviously) is so poor.
I still say being able to fire a few kilometers away with your main rifle is a pretty good advantage, and they can punch through 50 cm of ''Ferroconcrete'' which is used in bunkers, make that of what you will, but I am fairly sure that could punch through flak armor.
That sounds rather impressive. I get the feeling that the person(s) who wrote the technical stats for this equipment wasn't consulted or paid any heed to when the scenes were written.
It's true that Stormtroopers were widely feared, and they did take over a whole lot of everything. We can assume that their armour is up to a standard using their own weaponry as a reference, then.
There is the fact that 'troopers can't hit anything. But then again, they are subject to infinitely more Plot Power than the Guard. The Guard seem to actually give Plot Power to their foes.
A clone trooper could take a guardsman 1-on-1, but the entire GAR is a million men. The Imperial Guard triple that number in deployment on a daily basis.
Also, most GAR guns would have a lot of trouble piercing LRBT armor.
Ok, unfortunately a lot of posts are referencing the movies, an I just gotta say... THEY LOST! You couldn't have them be all bad ass because they were meant to lose.
How can you say with utmost certainty that a lasgun is better than a blaster? hmmm how do you know?
Also I think we need to take the oh they will be overwhelmed by millions upon millions of troops. There is no science fiction setting that can hold a candle to the sheer scope of Warhammer 40K.
We need to look at an individual battle say 10000 guardsman vs 10000 clones. If the Guard take any subhumans then the Clones get Jedi/Sith.
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DOOMBREAD wrote: A clone trooper could take a guardsman 1-on-1, but the entire GAR is a million men. The Imperial Guard triple that number in deployment on a daily basis.
Also, most GAR guns would have a lot of trouble piercing LRBT armor.
The AT-AT's main guns which I would compare to maybe a couple of TL lascannons could pierce a Russ. The AT-ST is an oversized sentinel with maybe a TL Lascannon on it, so yes they could hurt a Russ.
going by the accuracy of the clones, and the fact that their armor can't stop one laser, i would give it to the imperial guard. but clones have emp grenades that can stop all the guards nice things from working so the flyers crash, and tanks become a real nice target.
This is stupid... They at best equal each other the guard has more peeps, that doesnt stop the Tau or any random Ork warboss from taking over a big chunk of terroity. I see the clones being a major pain in the side of the imperium but eventually due to the sheer size of the EoM they would be crushed. And im sorry i know it was said that space ships were out but seriously? The main line cruisers during the clone wars is smaller than the smallest IN destroyer, Nuff said.
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
Better than say a Cadian or a Catachan? If we are bringing the best line infantry that the clone troopers can bring we should bring the best line infantry the Imperial Guard can bring. If someone brings in ARC troopers, the Imperial Guard should be allowed to bring in Storm Troopers. If the clones get jedi the IG can get Grey Knight allies.
King Pariah wrote: I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
IG of what regiment? Each regiment is trained to different standards and equipped to different standards.
Well if you demand a regiment then I'll go ahead and say all/the posterchild of IG.
Which would be Cadians. Which are one of the highest trained IG regiments, especially with ranged weapons (well, fluffwise, as tabletop stats are heavily abstracted).
You want to compare Clones, that can't hit the broad side of a barn to one of the best trained fighting forces in the Imperium and highest trained at ranged warfare outside of the Astartes? In a conflict that is going to be based on ranged warfare?
Once you start comparing them to things like Commandos, you need to start bringing in Kasrkin or Stormtroops, or other similarly trained Guardsmen. Clones aren't comparing favorably.
King Pariah wrote: I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
IG of what regiment? Each regiment is trained to different standards and equipped to different standards.
Well if you demand a regiment then I'll go ahead and say all/the posterchild of IG.
Which would be Cadians. Which are one of the highest trained IG regiments, especially with ranged weapons (well, fluffwise, as tabletop stats are heavily abstracted).
You want to compare Clones, that can't hit the broad side of a barn to one of the best trained fighting forces in the Imperium and highest trained at ranged warfare outside of the Astartes? In a conflict that is going to be based on ranged warfare?
Once you start comparing them to things like Commandos, you need to start bringing in Kasrkin or Stormtroops, or other similarly trained Guardsmen. Clones aren't comparing favorably.
OP mentionned specialists, so I am assuming there are IG Stormies and Clone Commandos, which both compare very well, imo, Stormies win on raw ranged damage while the Commando win on flexibility and better defensive gear.
The imperial ones are referred to as storm troopers.
I know the Imperial ones are "Storm Troopers"
But peoples accounts of what the in question troopers have seems to be a strange mix of Republic Clone Troopers and Imperial Storm Troopers (Star Wars).
Republic troopers have walkers but they are not "titan sized" the primary one is possibly a bit larger then a large heavy tank and its used for infantry support. they don't get any bigger then that. the Imperial Storm Troopers have the At-At but thats a Shock Troop transport/heavy assault transport which is "titan sized".
So please.
What kind. Imperial Storm Troopers or Republic Clone Troopers?
and once again. I belive the IG would steam roll either. heavy armor, training, and effective (reletive) infantry armor wins. Not to mention numbers.
Oh and I have to put this in...
Guardsmen Flak armor on the other hand would deflect a stone arrow.... unless it hit an un armored area of course...
Bobthehero wrote: OP mentionned specialists, so I am assuming there are IG Stormies and Clone Commandos, which both compare very well, imo, Stormies win on raw ranged damage while the Commando win on flexibility and better defensive gear.
I'm actually not so sure on either of those. Storm Troopers are armoured in carapace armour, the best armour anyone who doesn't have relations with the Mechanicus, Inquisition or Ecclisiarchy can get, which is capable of stopping bolter fire, both on the table top, and in most fluff. As for the tactical niche, storm troopers are expected to fulfill pretty much every role that would require some form of "elite" troops. They are capable of spearheading a conventional offensive, jumping behind enemy lines in grav chutes and messing things up for them, or flying in in valkyries, destroying a target, and evacuating. Granted, it may lead to the storm troopers to suffer from a jack of all trades, master of none compared to ARC troopers and commandos. In the end I might give the storm troopers the edge, if only due to equipment (the HSLG is the real game changer).
Commando's do all the things you mentionned plus: they have small bacta medic kit, they have energy shield, their weapon can be changed from a conventionnal rifle to either a sniper rifle or an anti-tank weapon, on the fly.
I said Clone Troopers, so can be either. Same with the Guard, just go with whichever regiments fits...I'm going with Death Korps of Krieg burying the Clones.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: The clones are poorly trained (They where marching in formation while in combat) with poor armor (can't stop a direct blaster hit) and have weapons slightly inferior to the Lasgun. They lack heavy armor that the IG have, the battle clearly favors the Imperial Guard. Hands down the clones lose, hard.
Though the Guard would indeed win, that isn't entirely true. Their armor can stop direct blaster hits (as someone else said, the movies only show kill hits) and blasters are about as good as Lasguns.
Bobthehero wrote: On equal numbers, meh, their blaster being able to fire a few kilometers away sure helps a whole bunch, especially agaisnt the DKoK static positions.
Quote: ''The primary disadvantage of this powerful weapon was that it was incapable of providing indirect fire support to out of sight locations, a problem remedied in other models.''
Edit: Those things where used as a ship to ship weapon,
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
I'd say Guard would win, but not an all out crushing victory.
IMO its a bit hard to make a clear picture. Star Wars for me perhaps holds to a more 'realistic' viewpoint or a set with their weapons in film, games, etc, as opposed to 40k which really doesn't. Star Wars weapons in all their showings are set up like, it does this and that is what it does. 40k states it does this, but then it can do this and the variations of the abilities of both the people in 40k and the weapons vary in such a wild way its not funny. 40k has what, 3, characters who "single-handedly" held off a Tyranid Hive fleet. A Space Marine, an Eldar and a Tau, as opposed to say Star Wars biggest claim, The Emperor could use the force to create storms that could destroy a fleet from X distance away.
The 40k tabletop sets X weapon at Y amount, a FFG or Inquisitor version of the game could be set to a similar area, or be different. The fluff could hold that a Space Marine can survive all of a Guard Unit firing at him at the same time, but a different author would have that marine cut down. A bolter in a book could fling a guardsman off his feet, be too heavy to lift, etc. But in X spot is is set to be this, in Y book its set to be that. Star Wars tends to just set it to one level, and leave it there. Over the films, books, video games, etc they tend to just be at that one level. 40k doesn't stick to the same setting of it being at one level. It depends on other factors like the author or the game, etc.
1000 Original Clone Troopers vs 1000 Guard, with stock standard weapons could wield a result like 250 Clone Troopers dead to the full 1000 Guard. But then there are factors which change it, where are the guards from that make up the force? A Catachan force would live longer in the Jungle compared to say a Guard Squad who have never been in a jungle before. How many battles have they seen, etc, etc.
If both sides were to be put at a set level, with their weapons and everything decided at set levels then it would be easier to do a comparison between the 2.
I also think that the Jedi dying in the purge is hard to put in context, were they just easy to kill or if you were to take into thought say Yoda feeling it happening, then I could imagine if hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who are connected to the Force are all suddenly dying at a singular time then the disturbance felt via the Force would be great, Yoda was a Grand master, with centuries of experience. Maybe he could act like he did due to that training, but other Jedi who lack it would be affected by it so their reactions would be slower, if not completely voided by the disturbance making them affectively cripples. A 40k Librarian would perhaps suffer the same affect should he suddenly have his powers turned off via a blank/sister of silence or if he was suddenly put under a massive mental/psychic assault. Tigurius would undoubtedly do better in that situation than say a new Librarian, and he would be far far better than an Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psyker.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
40k wins.
If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
Spoiler:
40k wins.
If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?
Quite true that battleships are rare. Cruisers, which are only about 1/3 - 1/2 smaller, are quite more common. And looking at the size of a regular star destroyer to a simply Imperial Escort ship... yeah.
The important thing to remember about 40k is it's meant to compare this way to other sci fi settings. it's sci fi cranked up to 20. Everything is extreme, over the top, and designed to simply be badass.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
40k wins.
I said PLANETARY forces.
Also, the super star destroyer is 4x bigger than that big green ship
Guard flak armour works. Clone armour does not. Guard wins.
What people do not realize is the above is not true.
The movies only show the blaster shots that kill people, they do not show the millions of blaster hits that are absorbed by the armor.
a 40K movie would show the same thing. most of the Lasgun hits that were stopped by armor would not be shown onscreen.
It captures the action better to just show the ones that get through.
Because anyone getting shot in the SW movies just drops dead, I dont ever recall seeing a clone trooper shaking of a blaster round and walk on after that.
Because they usually do not show the times that the clone troopers are hit, yet do not die. It is all about the Mise on scene in films. That is why you hardly ever see a shot that is absorbed by the armor.
The point being that It is more cinematic to show the Kill shot on 100 people than 3 kill shots and 97 non-kill shots on 3 people.
I don't get why a flak armor should be so much more resistant as the Clone Trooper one.
In the movie we did not see any trooper or any droid taking more than one shot, because those were action scenes imo.
If you guys had the chance to watch Ultramarines, you will notice that Chaos Space Marines are OS by Bolter shots every time, even with their 3+ save vs AP5 weap
Pro IG: number, autonomy
Pro CT: intensive training in cloning facility
In terms of personal gear, I think they are quite the same.
Talking about vehicles, I agree with the fact that CT vehicles doesn't look very resistant to anything else than lasers.
^ Actually no, if you really want to get into this the Star Wars ships win each and everytime as the imperial ships are (comparatively) hugely undergunned for size. That Star Destroyer that is below the Imperial battleship would in all likeliness be able to not only destroy that battleship, but all of its battlegroup as well and possibly doing so without suffering a hit or damage.
If you want the reasoning I can give it to you, but pretty much the reason that Star Wars navies beat 40k navies into the ground is that Star Wars actually has fluff measured in modern day units. So I can tell you exactly the amount of damage one shipborne turbolaser is capable of producing, (7,73 × 10^24 W/s, that's 1 400 000 000 times more energy than was released by the Tsara Bomba which essentially means one hit and your ship is toast, and that Star Destroyer has 69 of them.) as well as its effective range, manufacturer and make. The 40k fluff simply doesn't have this, and the only way to compare is from fluff extrapolations, which are so ridiculously underpowered in comparison so as to make the thought of the Imperial Empire being defeated at the hands of the Empire of Man absolutely laughable at best.
On the ground it's pretty much the same thing, the Clone Troopers could simply set up an area shield using a small starship class powerplant and continue to laugh as the guard pores all of the artillery and firepower they can possibly even get into physical range of it. Likewise their anti air power is uttercrap in comparison, a hydra flak tank, hell even an icarus lascannon doesn't nearly put out even a tenth of a percent of what is needed to knock out a starfighters shield, let alone a planet class shield system.
The absolutely only thing the Imperial Guard have going for them is their Psykers and manpower. Thats it, all of their equipment is utterly outclassed by star wars tech. The clone commandos energy shield would allow him to calmly walk right up to a Guardsmen who had been shooting him at full auto with his lasgun and punch him in the face with his guantlets vibro blade.
TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.
Ratbarf wrote: TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.
If you're going that route, it doesn't mean the Star Wars stuff wins, it simply means they're not comparable due to a lack of data. Which means any discussion might as well not happen.
So you help convince that Star Wars wins, you just killed the thread instead.
That was my intention. Also did you just read the TL;DR? Cause if you did you missed the tech and comparison reason as to why Star Wars tech destroys 40k tech.
If we are comparing the entire Imperial Guard fighting force then the Guard will most likely outnumber the clones by several thousand to 1. Unless they can hit and kill let's say 10,000 each, guard win. Any armour the clones can field will also be ridiculously outnumbered by the sheer weight of armour the Guard can bring to bear. In reference to the Self Propelled Heavy Artillery it said that it couldn't hit anything it couldn't see. Manticores, Deathstikes, Basilisks and Colossi can hit targets they can't see. And the Dropships have got to get past all the Hydras, quadguns and Icarus Lascannons first. Then all the Vendetta's, Valkyries and Vultures that'll be roaming the skies.
Ratbarf wrote: ^ Actually no, if you really want to get into this the Star Wars ships win each and everytime as the imperial ships are (comparatively) hugely undergunned for size. That Star Destroyer that is below the Imperial battleship would in all likeliness be able to not only destroy that battleship, but all of its battlegroup as well and possibly doing so without suffering a hit or damage.
You do realize a single lance can level a large part of a city, right? And 40k torpedoes are not only more versatile, but also more powerful, seeing as a single torpedo pretty much crippled a Battleship from a Gaunt's Ghosts novel.
On the ground it's pretty much the same thing, the Clone Troopers could simply set up an area shield using a small starship class powerplant and continue to laugh as the guard pores all of the artillery and firepower they can possibly even get into physical range of it. Likewise their anti air power is uttercrap in comparison, a hydra flak tank, hell even an icarus lascannon doesn't nearly put out even a tenth of a percent of what is needed to knock out a starfighters shield, let alone a planet class shield system.
You underestimate the power of artillery and numbers...
The clone commandos energy shield would allow him to calmly walk right up to a Guardsmen who had been shooting him at full auto with his lasgun and punch him in the face with his guantlets vibro blade.
And get vaporized by a melta blast.
TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.
Not really...just by looking at their descriptions, even without measuring it, 40k technology is simply overwhelming - there's no point in measuring it, because its that powerful.
Ratbarf wrote: That was my intention. Also did you just read the TL;DR? Cause if you did you missed the tech and comparison reason as to why Star Wars tech destroys 40k tech.
Just because you can quote numbers from fictional tech specs doesn't prove technological superiority. you can;t mathematically judge the efficiency of Star Wars technology based on a set of numbers that lets be fair, the writer of said tech specs snatched out of thin air. Lets be fair to accomplish enough power to run the weapons plus, say the ships reversing lights, would take a reactor with enough fissionable materials to have to tow a small sun behind it.
Without relying on somewhat suspect tech specs your comparison is relegated to comparing the respective technologies in action, the empire took decades to build a massive space station capable of destroying a planet, The IoM's chosen method of comparable destruction being a single cyclonic torpedo which can be carried by a naval escort is needs be. the scope of a Jedis power (Just to address that in advance) ranges to between negligible and laughable when compared to even a sanctioned imperial psyker. As for standard infantry actions.
IG have at least comparable training to Clone Troopers, to even become a guardsmen you normally have to serve time as a conscript or have training on your home world.
Weaponry wise, blasters and las weapons are fairly comparably crap.
As already stated, IG flak armour stands a lot better then Clone Trooper foil wrap
The average IG regiment has a FAR larger access to Air and mechanized support
Logistically IG fair far better over long campaigns, Clone troopers are generally deployed for rapid actions, IG Las weaponry is easy to recharge, their vehicles are fairly easy to repair
IG has far greater redundancy in both its technology and tactics
Don't even get me started on if the the IG were backed up by even a single squad of astartes.
I mean its fairly permissible that a single marine squad could hijack the death star.
I lol everytime a Star Wars fanboy tries to claim a ISD can trounce any 40k ship. You have "proof" (i just loled again) that your ships are uber powerful beyond their size and yet your stations are destroyed by a torpedo that wouldnt even register on the same scale as a 40k ship and lets not forget your vaunted SSD was destroyed largely due to an out of control one man fighter craft, that also would not register on this scale. The simple fact of the mattet is that there is nothing in the fluff for 40k to extrapolate an accurate measurement of what the ships are capable of without a lot of guess work. From the starwars fluff we can safely assume that the ISDs are not all that.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
40k wins.
If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?
You can define an army standart by its opposition can you?
What do clones go up against?
IG regularly go against 'nids, countless hordes of super-tough orks, unstoppable iron-hard 'crons, crazy AND armoured Khorne berzerkers and all other flavours of CSM...
Maybe the OP should make this into a Poll? From what I'm reading it's pretty close call if the forces were on even ground. If it's not a 50/50 vote, I'd say it's 60/40 IoM winning
EDIT: I still think the Republic would win on even terms, however.
You cant simply pit two armies against each other, because even if the unthinkable happened and the Empire beat IG, the Imperium would simply throw another few million Guard at them, or Emperor forbid....throw Astartes at them. And we all know how that one ends.
Lets not forget that the IG has access to thing like the Bane Blade and Shadowsword.
SW Troopers have nothing comparable to these, let alone able to do much more than scratch the paint work.
Jedi mind tricks are unlikely to work on a Commissar, and the Commissar has an answer to Jedi tricks known as "BLAM!"
While Star Wars Imperial/Republic STs may have some more advanced weapons, they don't seem to have the overwhelming fire power that the Imperial Guard bring as standard.
IG win on fire power alone, their numbers are just a bonus.
Tadashi wrote: I got into an argument on whether the Imperial Guard could win against Clone Troopers. This would involve only Guard infantry, their vehicles and aircraft. The same goes for the Clone Troopers, which may or may not be led by Jedi. No spacecraft or starships, or other specialist forces (Astartes, Sisters, Titans, etc.) but the Guard can deploy their own specialists (Sanctioned Psykers and such).
Note the third and last line. Thus Jedi are in. The Jedi led the Clone troops and there were a metric-F-ton of them at the time. Additionally you could assume a different flavor of Clone army with the Sith at the lead. Let’s run through a couple of points that jumped out at me during the discussion and would, to my mind, tip the balance:
1. Break down what the Clones are supposed to be about and you get something much more Elite. The basic Clone Trooper would have WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 4, I 4, A 1, LD 9, Sv 4+ (see point 3 below). Additionally they would all be Fearless and would have access to all the same battle tactics as Guard.
2. The Clone vehicles are not all Titan class but are also, as all Star Wars universe vehicles, not subject to any handheld weaponry. Chainfists may be an exception to the rule but how many chainfists do Guard have access to?
3. Blasters are not lasers but more effectively plasma weapons. So a better comparison of the armor they wear is to think about everyone wielding plasma weapons and not laspistols.
4. Flak armor always confused me. Flak is shrapnel or some other physical object hurling at high speeds. So why would they provide any real protection at all in the grim darkness of the far future?
5. Lasers do not matter to Jedi; they do not track the laser as it travels but rather the actions of the future through the force. Their stats are more like WS 6, BS 3, S 4, T 4, I 7, A 3, LD 10, Sv 6+ with Fearless and Fleet, 3+ InvSv as they always wield Lightsabers. Lightsabers would be R -, S User, AP 3, Armourbane, Instant Death and Specialist. They could lead troops or work in small squads themselves. This brings up some interesting opportunities for Psyker tactics on the battlefield. How would psykers interact with the force wielders?
Do these sound like semi-reasonable stats for a Clone Army? They would have lots of vehicles. Using this as a base the only factor that would save the Guard are, in fact, their overwhelming numbers. The Star Wars universe was much more sparsely populated in comparison. I kinda wanna play this army now… Has anyone done a conversion? Any thoughts on the above?
I also loved the naval comparison above which neglected to include a Super Star Destroyer for a real comparison While the Death Star would be more comparable to the Fortresses of the Astartes.
purplkrush wrote: 4. Flak armor always confused me. Flak is shrapnel or some other physical object hurling at high speeds. So why would they provide any real protection at all in the grim darkness of the far future.
I've always thought the same thing. I figured IG flak armor was little more than future kevlar.
5. Lasers do not matter to Jedi; they do not track the laser as it travels but rather the actions of the future through the force. Their stats are more like WS 6, BS 3, S 4, T 4, I 7, A 3, LD 10, Sv 6+ with Fearless and Fleet, 3+ InvSv as they always wield Lightsabers. Lightsabers would be R -, S User, AP 3, Armourbane, Instant Death and Specialist. They could lead troops or work in small squads themselves. This brings up some interesting opportunities for Psyker tactics on the battlefield. How would psykers interact with the force wielders?
Yeah, those rules are a bit ridiculous
Let's break it down:
WS6: Ok, that's fine
BS3: ditto
S4: hell no! That would make them as strong (or nearly as strong) as a SM. There is nothing in the movie to show that. Should be S3
T4 : Ditto. If a jedi can be killed by a stray blaster bolt, then they don't deserve T4. Should be S3
I7: That makes them as fast as Drazar. A Dark Eldar who excels at Close Combat. Dark Eldar are also naturally fast reacting. It should be more like I5 (or I6 for a master. Like, I dunno, Yoda or something)
6+ save : They wear robes. 6+ is for scraps of metal (like orks) or Chitin (Termagants). Should be -
3+ invul: More like a 4+...but much like the ini it really depends on the Jedi. And there are some things a lightsaber couldn't deflect. I doubt it could block melta or flames.
A3: No argument there.
Ld10: Eh, good enough
Fearless: Nope. There is nothing to show them as being fearless. That implies they never run away, when in fact they do retreat when the odds are against them. Now stubborn would be a more accurate representation.
Stubborn shows them as being hard to break and being well trained, but not to the point of stupidity.
Fleet: Eh, fine I guess.
Lightsaber: Oh boy, is this OP or what?
S User is fine.
AP3 is ok.
But Armor bane? If it can't cut through a security door (see, phantom menace), then it can't have armor bane. Just...no.
And Instant death? Really?! That means that it can 1 shot a hive tyrant or a tervigon. A friggen monster that is the size of a tank. Again, no.
Specialist makes sense.
purplkrush wrote: Do these sound like semi-reasonable stats for a Clone Army?
No, your stats and abilities are way off, your rules don’t match their performance in the movies or literature. The storm troopers and jedi are humans or close enough in the case of the jedi. Their stats wouldn’t exceed those depicted for unmodified humans in the existing 40K codices. A bullet or energy blast kills the jedi same as everyone else. A jedi is a normal well-trained human (or alien) with some relatively minor abilities (like a low level battle mage) and in the extended universe they are not gods of war that are impossible to beat, but die quite regularly as would be expected of normal human characters in a fantasy setting.
Jedi Lightsaber as an anti-fire defense; your 3++ save:
For the sake of argument we are accepting that a lightsaber would stop a laser blast, it might not. But it would be a bit much to start throwing in every single hit that can be inflicted on the jedi. Lascannons, flamers, grenades, power fist hits would all be impossible to block; it can even be argued that intercepting a plain old bolt round would cause a detonation that would kill the jedi.
It is not physical possible for a human to intercept a high volume spray of bullets. A jedi might be able to block a laser shot by positioning the lightsaber in the path of the shot because of his force foresight. The jedi might even be able to block 3 or 4 shots a second using this technique as seen in the movies. But the minute the number of shots exceed that rate of fire it becomes humanly impossible for the jedi to intercept those shots. My full auto lasgun example was based on the logical conclusion that a jedi could not intercept the level of shots directed at him was rejected by some; because a lasgun armed IG shouldn’t be able to kill a jedi. Just like the old, “a peasant with a bamboo musket shouldn’t be able to kill the most skilled samurai in Japan” argument.
So here is a real world example, the M16A2 rifle has a rate of fire of 700 - 950 rounds a minute which comes to about 12 to 16 rounds a second. It is physically impossible for a human body to move fast enough to intercept that number of rounds even if a person knows exactly where they are heading. Based on the fluff the lasgun is able of meeting if not exceeding the performance of the modern day rifle creating a situation where the jedi are exposed to a level of fire saturation they could not possible hope to deal with.
If I had to give lightsabers 40K rules they would be Strength +1, AP 3 melee weapons if I was feeling generous; Strength, AP 4 melee weapons if I wasn’t. It’s no guarantee that they would be able to penetrate power armor with ease. There are plenty of examples of the lightsaber having difficulty cutting through durable material.
In regards to the jedi stats and abilities on a whole; it would be generous to compare them to eldar warlocks in their contributions to the storm trooper army. Even if the jedi were the very best swordsman in the galaxy they are still just human or a off-human alien with comparatively low psychic powers (force jump, predict and intercept blaster shots, mind tricks, feeling the deaths of billions, ect) with a power sword like weapon. Jedi force lightening is like a spray taser, whereas; an eldar warlock can reduce a squad of storm troopers to burnt skeletons, cut down vehicles (and blast doors) with his sword with complete ease, and enjoys a 4++ save thanks to his rune armor. Warlocks out jedi the jedi - and in a 40K game, no one points across the table in terror at a guardian squad because of the presence of the warlock in its ranks.
well, I'd say it depends on which troops each side is fielding...there are first gen clones of Jango Fett, and they would wipe the floor with the Guard...these are the elite guys we see in the clone wars....there are then also the spaarti clones, who would get their handed to them by even a PDF detachment, because those guys are designed to take bullets, being grown in a few months and trained in one.
The kamino clone troopers would probably give the space marines a run for their money if they had the same style armor, because they have the same basic design (genetically enhanced and extremely well trained super soldiers designed to take on the worst of the galaxy)...But since clone troopers don't have the armor of space marines, the marines would win...
Now a very close match would be Republic Commandos versus Space Marines
I think where the OP went wrong is limiting us to just guard because everyone is just bringing everything in anyway.
As it is I imagine it would be similar to the Eastern Front in World War 2 in as much as the clones will manage to get the Guard to fall back some distance before loosing their momentum and stalling, in order to be battered by the Guard, loosing morale at the nigh on inexhaustible amount of manpower the Guard can bring. Eventually being crushed by the sheer mass of the Imperial Guard
mega_bassist wrote: Maybe the OP should make this into a Poll? From what I'm reading it's pretty close call if the forces were on even ground. If it's not a 50/50 vote, I'd say it's 60/40 IoM winning
EDIT: I still think the Republic would win on even terms, however.
A Multi-laser is the gun according to the Inquisitor rulebook with the best rate of fire, at 12 on full, 4-6 on semi. 30 shots in total before needing to reload. Optimal range from target is 40 yards. Anything 0-10 yards away is not a viable target for it, anything over 70 yards away is less likely to be hit.
Lasguns have a single shot, or a semi at 2/3 shots per action, so we can say per second. Highest amount is 60 shots before needing to reload. But they also melt if you fire them rapidly for too long. A Guardsman can repair their rifle quickly as long as the problem is not one which has voided the weapon, as in melted it.
Lasguns also start to lose their power from 10+ yards away.
A clones DC-15A Blaster rifle has 500 shots before reloading for the Tibanna gas cartridge and 50 for a charge pack. A range of 10km.
Standard weapon comparison would mean Clone Troopers take the advantage against standard Guard. Guard win due to numbers.
Thinking about it last night I think Imperium may have a problem though, the Machine Spirits which are in virtually everything, if they are 'living' things and not superstitious crock in 40k, they are then malleable to the Force. A Jedi can convince guard tanks they don't want to fight, that the weapons in their hands are not being "treated fairly". This is also important because the Imperium has already had to discontinue using certain vehicles and weapons because their Machine Spirits decided killing people was fun.
40k psykers are mutants, a mutation which is also something the Force can possibly shut off.
If you overlook the over the top and wild claims of 40k abilities, both sides have fairly equal footing, bar the Guard having higher numbers.
It should also be noted that blast door in Episode 1 took ages to cut through because it was a heavy blast door, virtually what you'd see a Titan armour as. Master Saesee Tiin is shown to cut through a ships outer armour in a short space of time.
If you want a good idea of how good Clones are, forget the films. Watch Star Wars: Clone Wars by Genndy Tartakovsky. The same series also shows how affective other Jedi Masters are.
danp164 wrote: Just because you can quote numbers from fictional tech specs doesn't prove technological superiority. you can;t mathematically judge the efficiency of Star Wars technology based on a set of numbers that lets be fair, the writer of said tech specs snatched out of thin air. Lets be fair to accomplish enough power to run the weapons plus, say the ships reversing lights, would take a reactor with enough fissionable materials to have to tow a small sun behind it.
No, they're based on the demonstrated capabilities from the canon films. For example, exploding asteroids with point defense guns (a simple calculation for firepower), the acceleration rates of a star destroyer (again, can calculate minimum power output), a rebel ship at Endor blowing away a star destroyer with a single salvo, etc. Like it or not, Star Wars ships display massive firepower.
Without relying on somewhat suspect tech specs your comparison is relegated to comparing the respective technologies in action, the empire took decades to build a massive space station capable of destroying a planet, The IoM's chosen method of comparable destruction being a single cyclonic torpedo which can be carried by a naval escort is needs be.
Actually the Empire took about three years (at most) to build one, and that was even bigger than the first death star.
And the thing that's impressive about the death star isn't that it destroys a planet, it's that it explodes the planet. A single shot applies so much energy to the planet that its remains are thrown outward at impressive speed, leaving nothing but a rapidly expanding cloud of dust. And, again, this something where we can easily calculate the firepower required, and the answer is unimaginably huge.
Weaponry wise, blasters and las weapons are fairly comparably crap.
Wait, are we talking about the same blasters that have the firepower of a modern grenade launcher (at least), full automatic rate of fire, and massive ammunition capacity?
The average IG regiment has a FAR larger access to Air and mechanized support
Actually they have NO air support. Air support is provided by the Imperial Navy, which has been specifically excluded.
AndrewChristlieb wrote: and yet your stations are destroyed by a torpedo that wouldnt even register on the same scale as a 40k ship
Is it really that hard to see the difference between a precise torpedo shot directly into the main reactor and a torpedo shot onto the hull of a ship? Remember that identical torpedo shots that missed the weak point did nothing but burn the paint off, so a starship vs. starship fight would not be resolved with a single torpedo shot.
and lets not forget your vaunted SSD was destroyed largely due to an out of control one man fighter craft, that also would not register on this scale.
Sorry, but did you even watch the same movie as the rest of us? Because in my copy that ramming attack is preceded by an order to "concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer". And even then the collision doesn't actually destroy the ship, it merely keeps the crew from regaining control of the ship in the short time before it collides with the death star (possibly because the previously mentioned "all fire" may have damaged engines, killed backup bridge crew, etc).
also I am curious, because it has been said a few times, and maybe im not as completely caught up in my star wars "fluff" as I should be. But what the heck are the clone troopers fielding that can compete with a titan? because if you say an ATAT I am going to laugh so hard I hurt myself.
An ATAT, the largest land vehicle I know the clone troopers have access to is roughly 22 meters tall. and 20 meters across. A massive beast to be sure.
An imperial class titan is 150 meters tall, and could probably step on an ATAT instead of wasting ammo on it.
I very much agree with and like almost everything about your mods. I still believe that in CC the Lightsaber should have Armorbane though.
What does "OP" mean in that context? I'm not familiar with all the abbreviations. And no, I'm not taking it personally, just ignorance showing...
Grunt13:
Yeah... I knew someone like you would come scrambling out of the woodwork with a modern day, "realistic" comparison to two completely different fantasy settings. I almost stated such in my original post. Thanks man...
Oh, and refer to Niner009's post regarding your obvious misunderstanding of the clones. It's not like they were ripped from Bob in Accounting or some such...
Iced Animals:
For the AT-AT comparison you'd have to refer to the books. One short story talked about them stepping over canyons but I can't remember what the distance was. I remember it surprised me but I've never been the kind to dig through all the "tech" specs floating around so there either could be discrepancies or I may just be flat out wrong.
If we must get into "killing planets" you must realize this point.
The Imperium needs planets for their resources. They don't blow up planets to "prove their 'evil'" or whatever
Exterminatus is done by many means.
Majority scar the planet and kill ALL life on it. (virus bomb, plasma bomb, Cyclonic torpedo surface attack etc.)
There is a method of total oblideration as well. Take 1 cyclonic torpedo and attach a melta charge to the front of the missile.
The missile will bore through the planets crust until it reachs the core where it detonates which in turn makes the entire planet go boom. Death Star is not the only thing that can kill planets. Practically every ship in an imperial fleet is capable of mounting these weapons.
In practice The imperium could fire one of these into the Death star and it would make it explode with ease.
The argument of Sheild technology from the SW universe.
Every depiction i've seen from video game to movie, the sheild if impacted enough times will fall for one reason or another.
Personal fields fall to multiple impacts from small arms (no less that of heavy weapons) so a lasgun could take down a commandos personal sheild. it will take more then 1 shot sure but It can be done.
larger sheilds like those for base defense are obviously immune to a lasgun, but bring forward a Shadowsword (or 10) or an artillary battery and the massive amount of heavy ordinace will bring that sheild crashing down.
Weapons:
Man portable anti armor weapons for the SW universe are more often then not a Rocket/missile launcher of some sorts. mostly dumb fire. Its possibly a plasma warhead or a traditional shaped charge warhead (if it ain't broke don't fix it)
Imperial Guard AT weapons range from the Lascannon to Missile launcher or even the Autocannon for lighter armor. plus the lascannons punching power would be probly equal if not greater then a imperial walkers primary anti armor laser cannon. And a 2 man team carrys one of these guns around.
lasguns impacts are allegedly equal to being hit by a 30 or 40mm solid shell. Tearing off limbs or sawing a man in half from a single shot if at full power. regulation power is about that of a heavy shotgun slug hitting you or even a 50 cal round.
Blaster shots are from movie and game interpritation are like being hit by a shotgun at close range (causing the target to be knocked backward) either leaving a impact on the wearer or a clean burn hole.
Armor: from the AT-ST (Chicken Walker as its also known) to the AT-AT the Empire has primarily walkers and if you include vehicales from video games then they also have some tank-like units, some with hover drives others with traditional tracks. those that hover or have tracks have supposedlly incredibly thin armor for a combat vehicale and can only turn away small arms fire. anythign bigger can shred them to peices.
the AT-ST chicken walker (which is prone to death by small bear-like alien attacks) is a light walker with anti infantry weapons and its armor is equally as thin. a Autocannon ro Missile launcher could topple them over with ease. If a "brave" guardsmen doesn't throw a demo charge at the legs first or wedge a grenade in the leg joints.
the AT-AT is a massive 4 legged assailt transport (its name means All Terrain- Assualt Transport after all) that supports thick armor and heavy weapons. I would equate the main weapons as a mix of multi laser-ish AI guns and lascannons for anti structure and armor work. while this is all well and good, its under belly is vulnerable (not to mention the kneck) and a good IG tanker would quickly learn of this and aim for it . While a heavy bolter round possibly could not damage the lower hull f an AT-AT the main gun of any Leman Russ (not to mention any kind of baneblade) could tear through this armor. Also Anti tank weapons like a lascannon with a well aimed hit to the neck could fell the At-At
I will also mention that "Direct fire Artillary" vehicale cannot aim down, and a Leman Russ is MUCH shorter then that thing, not less would it have much lesser armor! so a few shots from a Leman Russ and it would collapse.
Compared against the legions of tanks and different varients of tanks of the IG the Storm Troopers fall.
the Leman Russ would have a varient for anything the Storm Troopers could throw at them. Vanquishers could demolisher anything that is sent against them in terms of armor and the other varients high explosive weapons would demolish every thing else. INfantry would be torn apart by exterminators or punishers.
the Baneblade and its many varients would also level anything the storm troopers could bring.
Artillary of the IG is unbelivably powerful. With the numbers as well the sky would be blotted out by the number of shells and its very doutful that any base defense sheild would hold against this.
the "Machine Spirit" is also jsut a AI of some sort and no Jedi could manipulate it......
*Jedi to a Leman Russ tank* These are not the troops your looking- BOOM! *tank kills jedi and freinds*
Im sorry.
But the Imperium of Man and its warriors of the Imperial Guard would crush the Galactic Empire's Storm Troopers (or the Republic troopers too for that matter)
Ratbarf wrote: ^ Actually no, if you really want to get into this the Star Wars ships win each and everytime as the imperial ships are (comparatively) hugely undergunned for size. That Star Destroyer that is below the Imperial battleship would in all likeliness be able to not only destroy that battleship, but all of its battlegroup as well and possibly doing so without suffering a hit or damage.
If you want the reasoning I can give it to you, but pretty much the reason that Star Wars navies beat 40k navies into the ground is that Star Wars actually has fluff measured in modern day units. So I can tell you exactly the amount of damage one shipborne turbolaser is capable of producing, (7,73 × 10^24 W/s, that's 1 400 000 000 times more energy than was released by the Tsara Bomba which essentially means one hit and your ship is toast, and that Star Destroyer has 69 of them.) as well as its effective range, manufacturer and make. The 40k fluff simply doesn't have this, and the only way to compare is from fluff extrapolations, which are so ridiculously underpowered in comparison so as to make the thought of the Imperial Empire being defeated at the hands of the Empire of Man absolutely laughable at best.
On the ground it's pretty much the same thing, the Clone Troopers could simply set up an area shield using a small starship class powerplant and continue to laugh as the guard pores all of the artillery and firepower they can possibly even get into physical range of it. Likewise their anti air power is uttercrap in comparison, a hydra flak tank, hell even an icarus lascannon doesn't nearly put out even a tenth of a percent of what is needed to knock out a starfighters shield, let alone a planet class shield system.
The absolutely only thing the Imperial Guard have going for them is their Psykers and manpower. Thats it, all of their equipment is utterly outclassed by star wars tech. The clone commandos energy shield would allow him to calmly walk right up to a Guardsmen who had been shooting him at full auto with his lasgun and punch him in the face with his guantlets vibro blade.
TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.
I doubt this.
For one thing, as I recall, Star Wars ships generally have terrible weapons range, at least in comparison to 40k ships, which blow each other apart from ranges of tens of thousands of km away.
Furthermore, concerning firepower, well, Batlleships can destroy continents with their weapons. How do Star Destroyers fare when they start getting pelted tens of thousands of km away by continent leveling firepower?
On the ground, 40k stomps even harder. You know Deathstrike missiles? They destabilize tectonic plates and cause devastating earthquakes. Are Star Wars shields capable of taking barrages of missiles that destabilize tectonic plates? (That's also more powerful then the Tsar Bomba, fyi). Deathstrike missiles are nothing compared to Titans and Super-Heavy armaments.
FinalAnswer wrote: For one thing, as I recall, Star Wars ships generally have terrible weapons range, at least in comparison to 40k ships, which blow each other apart from ranges of tens of thousands of km away.
This is not true. Star Wars ships have a good range, but it is more cinematic to show up close dogfights.
Furthermore, concerning firepower, well, Batlleships can destroy continents with their weapons. How do Star Destroyers fare when they start getting pelted tens of thousands of km away by continent leveling firepower?
Their shields take some damage and they use their Ion cannons to render the enemy ships useless.
On the ground, 40k stomps even harder. You know Deathstrike missiles? They destabilize tectonic plates and cause devastating earthquakes. Are Star Wars shields capable of taking barrages of missiles that destabilize tectonic plates? (That's also more powerful then the Tsar Bomba, fyi). Deathstrike missiles are nothing compared to Titans and Super-Heavy armaments.
Im sorry, still laughing at the attempts to apply science and math to this. Its all fake and you cannot calculate anything without a real world example to compare it to, something you will not get with either of these.
Blasters cause small explosion on impact which can kill someone outright, the stormtroopers/clone armor protects them from that, but not from a direct hit shot.
I would be willing to bet that the tech is very comparable to one another, an the reason the imperial guard would win a "war" is because of their superior numbers. You trade being engineered super soldiers for decades of experience, the imperial guard just never stop fighting. It's hard to imagine why more imperial guard don't just up an kill themselves.
I know that the Jedi have left the debate, but I still say that they would match up well with any cc force the 40k setting can throw at them. Supposedly Abaddon has ap2 attacks that strike at his initiative, so I don't see why the Jedi couldn't fight the same way. Look at the inquisitorial assassins for an example, lightning reflexes give them a 4+ invuln, an I am sorry a Jedi could take one of those assassins. I say he gets a 3+ invuln an he attacks at i7 ap3, a lightsaber can cut through most things given the time, but an astartes in TDA isn't just standing around letting the Jedi cut through his suit. Supposing a ful squad of melta vets opened fire on the Jedi from a distance, then yes the jedi is gonna go splat, think Picketts charge from the Civil War but if the Jedi is on his own, he slips in close while the IG is taking their daily verbal beating from their commissar an he plays who wants to lose a limb with the surprised guardsman.
I voted for the clones, because in a small scap they could take the IG.
AndrewChristlieb wrote: Im sorry, still laughing at the attempts to apply science and math to this. Its all fake and you cannot calculate anything without a real world example to compare it to, something you will not get with either of these.
Sure you can, it's just basic physics if you have the right examples. What you need is a case where a weapon is fired against a known substance (for example, asteriods, a tree, concrete, etc) and you have a clear view of what damage is caused. This won't give you exact numbers, but you can still get a fairly good estimate. Likewise for stuff like speed, if you see a ship go from point A to point B in time C it's pretty trivial math to figure out the acceleration involved, and then the minimum power output required to do it for a given ship.
I know you said no space but I'm simply using these to illustrate how utterly outclassed the IoM is in comparison to the Star War universe.
Okay so if you read my post you would have realised that one run of the mil star destroyer has the energy output of ~7x10^24. Do you know how much energy that is? Thats the yearly amount of the suns energy that strikes the earth created every second. Also, a Star Destroyers main weapons actually measure their range in light minutes. A typical engagement usually takes place in the hundreds of thousands of kilometre range. The reason they seem closer is for cinematic value. Also, these weapons are not unknown to be used on the ground. Void shields would work against these weapons however, but only until enough hits are taken that it can no longer redirect them all into the warp. The starship engine powered shields on the other hands are only brought down due to energy overload. So you would have to throw much much much more than a single legio titanicus is even capable of throwing out at them to take it down. They have these things designed to work with ground troops, they were all over the clone wars, it could take months of constant bombardement to bring down a city's shields from weapons even heavier than that of a Star Destroyer.
Finally, the Death Star, the weapon fired by the death star has a rough energy output estimate at about 2 x 10^32 in one shot, with the second death star being able to do this output about once every 3 minutes. That is ten times more energy than our sun produces in a 24 hour period. Nothing in the Imperium of Man comes even remotely close to this, remotely.
Thirdly, the main difference in perceived destructive capability and actual destructive capability when comparing the two universes has been somewhat misguided. The main propellant for the majority of the IoMs weapons is chemical based propellant. ie they're still shooting at each other with some kind of explosive chemical mixture. With the exception of Plasma. Star Wars weapons are tiny pockets of Plasma or high output laser weapons. This is a significant difference, and essentially means that the armour compounds used by the IoM have either incredibly limited or no resistance to these rounds. Ergo, it would be conceivable that a basic infantry round from a blaster pistol is capable of peircing the armour of light battle tanks, and any kind of infantry wielded heavy repeater sufficient in energy output to through and through land raiders with ease.
Ratbarf wrote: Also, a Star Destroyers main weapons actually measure their range in light minutes. A typical engagement usually takes place in the hundreds of thousands of kilometre range. The reason they seem closer is for cinematic value.
I recall Commissar Cain noting the same for Imperial ships - they fight at ranges so great you can't even see your opponent, unless they're Attack Craft.
Also, these weapons are not unknown to be used on the ground.
So does the Imperium - mention has been made of heavy, ground-based defense lasers.
So you would have to throw much much much more than a single legio titanicus is even capable of throwing out at them to take it down. They have these things designed to work with ground troops, they were all over the clone wars, it could take months of constant bombardement to bring down a city's shields from weapons even heavier than that of a Star Destroyer.
Isn't it clear that lances and hundreds, if not thousands of Earthshakers are more than capable of doing what's necessary?
Finally, the Death Star, the weapon fired by the death star has a rough energy output estimate at about 2 x 10^32 in one shot, with the second death star being able to do this output about once every 3 minutes. That is ten times more energy than our sun produces in a 24 hour period. Nothing in the Imperium of Man comes even remotely close to this, remotely.
As I recall, the Blackstones could throw out equal/superior firepower despite their smaller size...not to mention Imperial ships would just close to a point where the Death Star couldn't fire its main cannon and just bomb the Death Star to hell with their lances and other weapons.
The main propellant for the majority of the IoMs weapons is chemical based propellant. ie they're still shooting at each other with some kind of explosive chemical mixture. With the exception of Plasma. Star Wars weapons are tiny pockets of Plasma or high output laser weapons. This is a significant difference, and essentially means that the armour compounds used by the IoM have either incredibly limited or no resistance to these rounds. Ergo, it would be conceivable that a basic infantry round from a blaster pistol is capable of peircing the armour of light battle tanks, and any kind of infantry wielded heavy repeater sufficient in energy output to through and through land raiders with ease.
Uh-huh, sounds like the difference between the UNSC and the Covenant. Play Halo...even the 'inferior' weapons of the UNSC were more than capable of taking down the superior Covenant technology.
Yeah... I knew someone like you would come scrambling out of the woodwork with a modern day, "realistic" comparison to two completely different fantasy settings. I almost stated such in my original post. Thanks man...
Lasguns are made as the futuristic counterpart of M16s and AK47s, comparison was justified. In the Gaunt’s Ghost and Ciaphas Cain books the characters switch to full auto at a fairly regular basis when they need saturate a mob of cultist with a hail of lasblasts.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120223161602/warhammer40k/images/2/20/Bladeofsondar2.jpg Image shows lasguns firing in burst mode. Gaunt’s boltpistol is firing in a burst of five shots going by the shell count. Bolt pistols are assault 1 guns in the game. Also the Dawn of War, Space Marine, and other games display lasguns as well as other rapid-fire guns firing in the manner I have described.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxKQkfkluc Given that jedi rely on intercepting each shot with their lightsaber to avoid injury they are in serious trouble when facing the guard.
purplkrush wrote:
Oh, and refer to Niner009's post regarding your obvious misunderstanding of the clones. It's not like they were ripped from Bob in Accounting or some such...
You gave the clone troopers a toughness of 4. Unless they can take a point black shotgun shot to their unarmored face and laugh it off the way an ork and space marine can it is completely unmerited. The Clone trooper were still just human beings and should have the same restrictions as human beings. The imperium made its own army of super clones from the collective genetic material of the greatest heroes of the imperial guard (not some random bounty hunter). Their rules were the same as the normal IG except that they had ATSKNF (IIRC).
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Afriel_Strain#.UFQLhEKevpQ
IG actually does have it's own air support in terms of several regiments that have built in air power in terms of valkyries/vendettas/mauraders/lightnings notably Elysian air corps or the Phantine guard regiments who are on a planet with no real ground essentially so it's definately not just a navy thing
I very much agree with and like almost everything about your mods. I still believe that in CC the Lightsaber should have Armorbane though.
What does "OP" mean in that context? I'm not familiar with all the abbreviations. And no, I'm not taking it personally, just ignorance showing...
Grunt13:
Yeah... I knew someone like you would come scrambling out of the woodwork with a modern day, "realistic" comparison to two completely different fantasy settings. I almost stated such in my original post. Thanks man...
Oh, and refer to Niner009's post regarding your obvious misunderstanding of the clones. It's not like they were ripped from Bob in Accounting or some such...
Iced Animals:
For the AT-AT comparison you'd have to refer to the books. One short story talked about them stepping over canyons but I can't remember what the distance was. I remember it surprised me but I've never been the kind to dig through all the "tech" specs floating around so there either could be discrepancies or I may just be flat out wrong.
OP means Overpowered.
And titans are not allowed. Titans are part of the titan legions, and not the IG. The IG do have baneblades, I think.
AndrewChristlieb wrote: Im sorry, still laughing at the attempts to apply science and math to this. Its all fake and you cannot calculate anything without a real world example to compare it to, something you will not get with either of these.
Sure you can, it's just basic physics if you have the right examples. What you need is a case where a weapon is fired against a known substance (for example, asteriods, a tree, concrete, etc) and you have a clear view of what damage is caused. This won't give you exact numbers, but you can still get a fairly good estimate. Likewise for stuff like speed, if you see a ship go from point A to point B in time C it's pretty trivial math to figure out the acceleration involved, and then the minimum power output required to do it for a given ship.
Sorry, you can not get an accurate measurement from "an asteroid". Concreate maybe, but you would still require some sort of baseline information on it: thickness, composition, etc... You dont have those stats for an asteroid so you cannot use it as an example. Speed i agree totally, but where are point a and point b? Unless the measurements were written down you cannot say what it is, and then of course once its written down its subject to the error all scifi is: overpowering. Writers always want to go to warp 15! They also usually have no idea what theyre talking about and leave horribly inaccurate drivel in their wake.
From the fluff both a SSD and a 40k BB can slag a planets surface in a matter of hours, limited by the time it takes to orbit the planet no doubt. It seems to me that they would have a similar output if thats the case.
Ratbarf wrote: I know you said no space but I'm simply using these to illustrate how utterly outclassed the IoM is in comparison to the Star War universe.
Okay so if you read my post you would have realised that one run of the mil star destroyer has the energy output of ~7x10^24. Do you know how much energy that is? Thats the yearly amount of the suns energy that strikes the earth created every second. Also, a Star Destroyers main weapons actually measure their range in light minutes. A typical engagement usually takes place in the hundreds of thousands of kilometre range. The reason they seem closer is for cinematic value. Also, these weapons are not unknown to be used on the ground. Void shields would work against these weapons however, but only until enough hits are taken that it can no longer redirect them all into the warp. The starship engine powered shields on the other hands are only brought down due to energy overload. So you would have to throw much much much more than a single legio titanicus is even capable of throwing out at them to take it down. They have these things designed to work with ground troops, they were all over the clone wars, it could take months of constant bombardement to bring down a city's shields from weapons even heavier than that of a Star Destroyer.
Finally, the Death Star, the weapon fired by the death star has a rough energy output estimate at about 2 x 10^32 in one shot, with the second death star being able to do this output about once every 3 minutes. That is ten times more energy than our sun produces in a 24 hour period. Nothing in the Imperium of Man comes even remotely close to this, remotely.
Thirdly, the main difference in perceived destructive capability and actual destructive capability when comparing the two universes has been somewhat misguided. The main propellant for the majority of the IoMs weapons is chemical based propellant. ie they're still shooting at each other with some kind of explosive chemical mixture. With the exception of Plasma. Star Wars weapons are tiny pockets of Plasma or high output laser weapons. This is a significant difference, and essentially means that the armour compounds used by the IoM have either incredibly limited or no resistance to these rounds. Ergo, it would be conceivable that a basic infantry round from a blaster pistol is capable of peircing the armour of light battle tanks, and any kind of infantry wielded heavy repeater sufficient in energy output to through and through land raiders with ease.
Show me the source for these claims, I have never seen anything like them on the internet, even amongst the most biased of Star Wars fans.
Uhuh. You do realize that the most common weapon amongst guardsmen, lasguns, are lasers, right? Plasma can't reliably take down a Land Raider anyway, so you're wrong there. And it's not like Star Wars guns are anything special, considering they've failed to kill people like Leia and Obi-Wan.
And by the way, I'm not really biased towards Star Wars, I once was in a thread about Tyranids vs the Empire and everyone said the Nids won and then this dude came up and started to say that Empire would win because they had ships with these specs. Pretty much everyone tried to argue against him but he won in the end simply because of how absolutely ridiculous the power outputs from their ships and weapons are. Nothing in the IoM even compares to the Star Wars universe when it comes to actual power output. For instance, the Death Star has an energy output that is 480 times greater than our sun. Yes, you read that correctly. Greater than our sun. That Deathstar, once fully constructed could face and destroy the entire fleet of the Imperium of Man, by itself.
Not canon whatsoever. Youre being sarcastic right?
Actually it very much is canon.
Isn't it clear that lances and hundreds, if not thousands of Earthshakers are more than capable of doing what's necessary?
In all likelihood actually no. The amount of energy output that the generators that the clones use is actually similar in scope to that of small stars. If you surrounded a shield powered by that generator with Eathshaker cannons wheel to wheel to as far out a range as they could possibly hit them they would still not be able to cause the shield to go down. That Star Destroyer Engine has enough energy to resist an explosion with the equivalency of about 3 or 4 Earths worth of TNT or conventional explosives. So no, lances and hundreds if not thousands of Earthshakers would not be capable of doing what's necessary.
The Droid army during the Clone Wars is stated to number in "the quintillions", which is several hundred, if not thousand, times larger than the entire Imperium of Man's population period, not just the Guard. The Clone Army by comparison numbered in the millions- and yet they still managed to win in the majority of their conflicts.
Let's not even bring numbers into this discussion. If the CIS couldn't overwhelm the Clones with sheer numbers, the Guard can't, especially when you consider that it takes the Guard months to travel from system to system via warp travel, and months to years to win a single planet, whereas Star Wars armies can travel from one side of the Galaxy to the other in days and fight entire planet-sized skirmishes in a couple of days.
- - - - - -
If Gaunt's Ghost is any indication, and I would say that it's arguably the "de facto" showing of the average Guardsmen, most Guardsmen, even veterans, have combat skills on par with your average veteran WW2 soldier. Cool, but clones are clones of a man who was able to kill several Jedi Knights armed with lightsabers using only his fists- simultaneously.
So on that notion I'd argue that Clones would win on an individual basis- easily.
Army vs. army they would lose because in Star Wars no one ever fights strategically. Guard mass-artillery strikes alone would wipe out most clone formations with ease.
Marbo's too busy fighting with the Emperor and the missing Primarchs and Bruce Lee and Prince Yriel in the Warp, preventing Chaos from flooding the Galaxy.
And by the way, I'm not really biased towards Star Wars, I once was in a thread about Tyranids vs the Empire and everyone said the Nids won and then this dude came up and started to say that Empire would win because they had ships with these specs. Pretty much everyone tried to argue against him but he won in the end simply because of how absolutely ridiculous the power outputs from their ships and weapons are. Nothing in the IoM even compares to the Star Wars universe when it comes to actual power output. For instance, the Death Star has an energy output that is 480 times greater than our sun. Yes, you read that correctly. Greater than our sun. That Deathstar, once fully constructed could face and destroy the entire fleet of the Imperium of Man, by itself.
While the Deathstar is all fine and dandy...I'm not seeing the actual specs on the Star Destroyer's weapons. Blasters are apparently capable of blasting off chunks of stone, that's cool. Still incapable of killing people like Leia though.
You might be interested in knowing that 3 cruisers are capable of 244,000 Gigatons of firepower via hellfire missiles (This being around the amount required to turn a Space Hulk to dust).
Lunar-class Cruisers are also apparently capable of 475.2 teratons of firepower per macrocannon salvo, macrocannons being one of the most common of Imperium weapons.
So, I dunno about the Deathstar soloing the entirety of the Imperium fleet.
Peregrine wrote: No, they're based on the demonstrated capabilities from the canon films. For example, exploding asteroids with point defense guns (a simple calculation for firepower), the acceleration rates of a star destroyer (again, can calculate minimum power output), a rebel ship at Endor blowing away a star destroyer with a single salvo, etc. Like it or not, Star Wars ships display massive firepower.
But at the same time they display dazzlingly short ranges and low speeds. I think the top speed of an X-wing is something like 300kph? And weapon ranges are usually less than a kilometer?
40K would obliterate the Empire or Republic in space. It'd be like matching an F22 against a Steamroller.
edit:
A x-wing is given a top speed of 100 megalights per hour, which is approximately 360 kph.
We also have this excerpt from 'Flight of the Eisenstien'
‘It’s a long distance,’ mused Garro. ‘We’ll have to travel several light-seconds at maximum burn to get there, and with the drives at full, it will light a torch to show Horus where we’re heading.’
Each light second is roughly 300,000 kilometers. Or an eight hundred hour trip for an X-wing traveling at top speed.
40K ships are several orders of magnitude faster than their SW counterparts, and engage at ranges that would make SW blush with shame.
I'd like to think that person per person, the Republic Clone Troopers have an advantage. The reason the armour of the SW universe never seems to work is the sheer damage potential of the weaponry. They basically all have plasma guns.
I think that the armour of any one Cloneboy is similar to or slightly better than guardsman flak.
So.
Pros for Clones:
+++Excellent AP Weaponry
+Weaponry extends to vehicles
+Vehicles have shielding
+Armour effective against lasguns
Pros for guardsmen:
+++Massive numbers
+++Smarter than a battle droid
Truthfully, if the clones were fighting a more intelligent force in the movies, they would have needed to fight harder to win. Against the Guard with their ability to land billions of troops and vehicles, with proper military minds and sentient ingenuity they have a massive advantage. I give the vote to Guardsmen > Clones.
Each light second is roughly 300,000 kilometers. Or an eight hundred hour trip for an X-wing traveling at top speed.
40K ships are several orders of magnitude faster than their SW counterparts, and engage at ranges that would make SW blush with shame.
Actually an X-Wing would get there much faster than any 40k ship I know of, because the X-Wing can do an in system Hyperspace jump, travelling several light minutes in the blink of an eye.
The capital ships from Star Wars engage in ranges exceeding several light seconds, and in extreme up to several light minutes against sufficiently slow targets. So it's actually the other way around, 40k ships engage at a much closer range than Star Wars ships.
Though I would agree with you though if you're talking about realspace speed. 40k ships do outmatch them, but then they would need to, because they don't have the ability or luxury to do an in system hyperspace jump.
While the Deathstar is all fine and dandy...I'm not seeing the actual specs on the Star Destroyer's weapons. Blasters are apparently capable of blasting off chunks of stone, that's cool. Still incapable of killing people like Leia though.
You might be interested in knowing that 3 cruisers are capable of 244,000 Gigatons of firepower via hellfire missiles (This being around the amount required to turn a Space Hulk to dust).
Lunar-class Cruisers are also apparently capable of 475.2 teratons of firepower per macrocannon salvo, macrocannons being one of the most common of Imperium weapons.
So, I dunno about the Deathstar soloing the entirety of the Imperium fleet.
Heavy Turbo lasers output is limited only by the energy output that the ship diverts towards it, making a maximum weapon output of roughly 7 x 10^24, and those cruisers combined have a total output of 440 000 exa joules, or about 0.44 yotta joules. That Star Destroyer has the ability to soak up about 7 yotta joules worth of energy per second if it isn't doing anything else. Which means that it would take about 18 cruisers firing simultaneously to overload its shields. The Death Star has an energy output in excess of 2 000 000 000 yotta joules of energy. So to get the shields of the Death Star to drop when at peak capacity you would need the combined firepower of 4.5 billion IoM cruisers. So yes, I'm relatively sure the Death Star could solo the entire IoM fleet.
Sorry, forgot the Macro cannons, they would need about 2 billion of those to drop the Death Stars shields. Like I said before, the energy output from the Death Star is 480 times that of our sun.
FinalAnswer wrote: While the Deathstar is all fine and dandy...I'm not seeing the actual specs on the Star Destroyer's weapons. Blasters are apparently capable of blasting off chunks of stone, that's cool. Still incapable of killing people like Leia though.
1) You can't judge weapons against main characters, since the power level of any weapon against a main character (outside of a specific death scene) is "enough to hurt, but not to kill them". When you look at blaster power against anyone who isn't a main character the result is pretty much one shot, one kill.
2) The blaster shot Leia took on Endor wasn't a direct hit. If you look at it frame-by-frame you can see the bolt hitting the bunker near her, so the actual wound was from the spray of molten metal coming from the actual impact site.
You might be interested in knowing that 3 cruisers are capable of 244,000 Gigatons of firepower via hellfire missiles (This being around the amount required to turn a Space Hulk to dust).
That's nice. Delivered over how long though? My flashlight is capable of 244,000 gigatons, it will just take a very long time to apply it to a target.
Also, you say "around" the amount. Was this firepower number actually given, or was it something you assumed and/or calculated?
So, I dunno about the Deathstar soloing the entirety of the Imperium fleet.
Err, no. You're talking about many orders of magnitude difference. 500 teratons is about a trillion times less than the death star's 1e38 joules of firepower (conservative estimate). http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Alderaan.html
To put that number into context, the difference between that macro cannon shot and the death star's main weapon is significantly greater than the difference between a rifle bullet and the most powerful nuclear weapon ever built.
Kaldor wrote: A x-wing is given a top speed of 100 megalights per hour, which is approximately 360 kph.
Two words: game mechanics.
Those speed numbers ONLY appear in the X-Wing video games, where the engine and gameplay limitations forced them to scale down speeds and distances. They directly conflict with the observed speeds in the canon movies (for example, the flight around Yavin to meet the death star), so they must be thrown out.
A few weapons of a standard ship for the Imperium.
The Macro cannon fires gigantic shells could could vaporize anything the Empire/Republic could use. The shells are practically the size of a small SW cruiser.
next is the lance battery.
a close range weapon.
usually mounted in dorsal turrets they can cut through hundreds of meters of metal and any puny SW ship will be sliced in 2. If the Imperial Captain doesn't decide to write his name in the floating wreckage of the star destroyer with it.
Another is the Torpedo. These Saturn 5 sized missiles are either unguided or guided but either way back a ton of power. Their payload can also be changed to plasma warheads to a melta charge mounted on the nose to allow the missile to bore into its target before detonating.
On top of all the offensive systems (including a legion of fighter/bomber craft)
Meters of solid adamantium and plasteel protected by many banks of void shields.
It depends which version of Clone Troopers: V1 (Feat in Star Wars ep2) or V2 (feat Star Wars ep3). If it's V1, then the armours inferior to the Flak jackets of the guard and their weapons aren't as versatile. If its V2 then they have the better armour and weapons as well as the better tanks and air-support.
Peregrine wrote: Those speed numbers ONLY appear in the X-Wing video games, where the engine and gameplay limitations forced them to scale down speeds and distances. They directly conflict with the observed speeds in the canon movies (for example, the flight around Yavin to meet the death star), so they must be thrown out.
Except they match all visual instances of x-wings flying on screen.
Maybe they used one of those in-system jumps Ratbarf was talking about to fly around Yavin.
I couldn't find any stats about weapon ranges for SW weapons, although I did notice that the heavy turbolasers mounted on ISDs are noted as being used for heavy anti capital ship weapons, being too slow to engage faster moving fighters.
If they can't hit an X-wing moving at 360 kph, they've got no chance hitting a capital ship moving at a thousand times that speed.
Actually that's relative from distance of origination to distance of target. When you turn your head while looking at the night sky you just covered say a 100th of the entire universe in a glance. The equivalent speed at the end of said glance is beyond comprehension, but the speed at origination is comparatively static. Thats how they could still fire at IoM Capital ships from a distance. Especially becuase of the massive difference in egagement range.
Lol, I messed my math up, the energy output for the deathstar, based on the minimum power necessary for it's main weapon and it's given rate of fire, is actually 9600 times that of our sun, or about 10^37 joules per 24 hour period. That means that roughly every 7-6 hours the Death Star produces more energy than our sun does every year.
Kaldor wrote: Except they match all visual instances of x-wings flying on screen.
Except they don't. Even when we see them flying at slow relative velocity near capital ships it's still much faster than anything in the game.
For comparison, the trench run mission in X-Wing had to boost your speed (IIRC) something like 5x normal just to make it appear even close to as fast as the one in the movie.
Maybe they used one of those in-system jumps Ratbarf was talking about to fly around Yavin.
Except there's no evidence for that. We see them take off, fly around the planet, and approach the death star. And we see the planet pass by pretty quickly as they fly around it, followed by the death star getting bigger very fast. Just looking at the death star approach alone where they are clearly not in hyperspace gives speeds much higher than 400 kph. And of course hyperspace jumps are never mentioned anywhere in the movies or even the books, so the only reason to speculate about them is a desire to nerf Star Wars speeds to the limits of an obsolete game engine.
I couldn't find any stats about weapon ranges for SW weapons, although I did notice that the heavy turbolasers mounted on ISDs are noted as being used for heavy anti capital ship weapons, being too slow to engage faster moving fighters.
If they can't hit an X-wing moving at 360 kph, they've got no chance hitting a capital ship moving at a thousand times that speed.
Besides the fact that you're wrong about the speeds, there's also acceleration and size to consider. A fighter is changing directions quickly, and is a very small target. A capital ship, on the other hand, is going to be much slower to change course, much easier to predict, and a slight aim error is just going to hit a different part of the ship instead of missing entirely.
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Engine of War wrote: The Macro cannon fires gigantic shells could could vaporize anything the Empire/Republic could use. The shells are practically the size of a small SW cruiser.
Even ignoring the firepower question, that's assuming it hits. Travel time of half an hour = never going to hit a ship with the demonstrated acceleration of Star Wars capital ships.
usually mounted in dorsal turrets they can cut through hundreds of meters of metal and any puny SW ship will be sliced in 2. If the Imperial Captain doesn't decide to write his name in the floating wreckage of the star destroyer with it.
They can cut through any known 40k armor. Their performance against Star Wars armor and shields is unknown. Just grouping it all under "armor" and assuming all armor is equal makes about as much sense as saying a pistol shot can go through police armor therefore it can also go through tank armor.
Ratbarf wrote: Actually that's relative from distance of origination to distance of target. When you turn your head while looking at the night sky you just covered say a 100th of the entire universe in a glance. The equivalent speed at the end of said glance is beyond comprehension, but the speed at origination is comparatively static. Thats how they could still fire at IoM Capital ships from a distance. Especially becuase of the massive difference in egagement range.
I'm well aware of the impact of relativity. X-wings, and by extension all SW ships, move at a crawl compared to 40K ships. I think a 40K cruiser travels something like 5,000 times faster than a SW fighter.
You can slice that however you want, and take any reasonable amount of relativity into account, but that still leaves ALL SW ships dead in the water.
Further, all SW space encounters, in both the movies and extended background, occur at microscopic distances.
Given the incredibly low speed of SW ships, and the solid ammunition of macro cannons, the range of 40K ships is effectively limitless. The rounds will continue to travel through space until they impact something.
While no actual output is given for 40K weapons that I can find, the capabilities they demonstrate far exceed those demonstrated by SW ships (Deathstar excluded) so it's only fair to assume that their energy output also far exceeds the stats given for SW weapons.
Ratbarf wrote: Heavy Turbo lasers output is limited only by the energy output that the ship diverts towards it, making a maximum weapon output of roughly 7 x 10^24, and those cruisers combined have a total output of 440 000 exa joules, or about 0.44 yotta joules. That Star Destroyer has the ability to soak up about 7 yotta joules worth of energy per second if it isn't doing anything else. Which means that it would take about 18 cruisers firing simultaneously to overload its shields. The Death Star has an energy output in excess of 2 000 000 000 yotta joules of energy. So to get the shields of the Death Star to drop when at peak capacity you would need the combined firepower of 4.5 billion IoM cruisers. So yes, I'm relatively sure the Death Star could solo the entire IoM fleet.
Sorry, forgot the Macro cannons, they would need about 2 billion of those to drop the Death Stars shields. Like I said before, the energy output from the Death Star is 480 times that of our sun.
Neat. So, things like Battleships which make cruisers look like rowing boats should have no problem fething up a Star Destroyer, what with their whole "continent busting" schtick. Also, macrocannons are merely the "common" guns of the Imperium starships. There's still a boatload more of weapons, like Nova Cannons, which has a firepower output of 6.45 petatonnes.
Prove the Death Star's shields are the same as it's power output. Not that it matters, the Imperium can always throw planet-busting Cyclonic Torpedoes at the thing. Or just blow it up with their Blackstone Fortresses, which can go beyond mere-planet busting and cause suns to supernova.
Kaldor wrote: Further, all SW space encounters, in both the movies and extended background, occur at microscopic distances.
Not true. Even in the movies we see the battle of Endor start out at fairly long range, and in the various books there are examples of battles fought at MUCH longer ranges.
Of course given the incredibly high demonstrated acceleration of Star Wars ships, the most likely explanation is that staying at long range is simply pointless. The superior force will immediately close to point blank range, minimize the impact of electronic warfare, and demolish the opposition.
Given the incredibly low speed of SW ships, and the solid ammunition of macro cannons, the range of 40K ships is effectively limitless. The rounds will continue to travel through space until they impact something.
Their theoretical range may be unlimited, but their range against a maneuvering target will be much less. Once travel time gets too long the target ship will simply not be in the place you were aiming for, and the shot will miss.
While no actual output is given for 40K weapons that I can find, the capabilities they demonstrate far exceed those demonstrated by SW ships (Deathstar excluded) so it's only fair to assume that their energy output also far exceeds the stats given for SW weapons.
And what capabilities would those be?
Before you answer, you should watch the bit in RotJ where a rebel ship blows away a star destroyer with a single salvo. It's in the background as Ackbar says "concentrate all fire on that super star destroyer".
Peregrine wrote: That's nice. Delivered over how long though? My flashlight is capable of 244,000 gigatons, it will just take a very long time to apply it to a target.
Also, you say "around" the amount. Was this firepower number actually given, or was it something you assumed and/or calculated?
“Four Gothic-class cruisers–Intolerable, Invincible, and Righteous Force–awaited four parsecs from target. Each ship carried 100 Hellfire nuclear missles. Each missle 122 warheads, each with a firepower of 5 GT. If boarding action fails, nuclear missles will turn a ship to dust.” Space Hulk Rulebook, p.3 - Scenario Book
The Droid army during the Clone Wars is stated to number in "the quintillions", which is several hundred, if not thousand, times larger than the entire Imperium of Man's population period, not just the Guard. The Clone Army by comparison numbered in the millions- and yet they still managed to win in the majority of their conflicts.
Let's not even bring numbers into this discussion. If the CIS couldn't overwhelm the Clones with sheer numbers, the Guard can't, especially when you consider that it takes the Guard months to travel from system to system via warp travel, and months to years to win a single planet, whereas Star Wars armies can travel from one side of the Galaxy to the other in days and fight entire planet-sized skirmishes in a couple of days.
The IoM numbers at least a million worlds, if not more. Many of these worlds have populations of several billion.
I'd expect the IoM could easily overwhelm the entire SW galaxy in a tide of bodies...
Kaldor wrote: Except they match all visual instances of x-wings flying on screen.
Except they don't. Even when we see them flying at slow relative velocity near capital ships it's still much faster than anything in the game.
For comparison, the trench run mission in X-Wing had to boost your speed (IIRC) something like 5x normal just to make it appear even close to as fast as the one in the movie.
Ok, well let's say the fighters making the trench run were travelling at half speed. So let's say that their top speed, using 360kph as a base, is actually 3,600 kph.
Congratulations, now the Eisenstein is only 1,500 times faster.
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Peregrine wrote: Their theoretical range may be unlimited, but their range against a maneuvering target will be much less. Once travel time gets too long the target ship will simply not be in the place you were aiming for, and the shot will miss.
But 40K targeting cogitators are used to calculating firing solutions on targets traveling hundreds, if not thousands of times faster. This extends their range considerably.
While no actual output is given for 40K weapons that I can find, the capabilities they demonstrate far exceed those demonstrated by SW ships (Deathstar excluded) so it's only fair to assume that their energy output also far exceeds the stats given for SW weapons.
And what capabilities would those be?
Oh, you know, punching through the crust of a planet. Just stuff like that.
Given the incredibly low speed of SW ships, and the solid ammunition of macro cannons, the range of 40K ships is effectively limitless. The rounds will continue to travel through space until they impact something.
While true they would continue on through space until contact, they would by no means actually hit the SW ships. If you're including X-Wing as canon for data, then we can assume that a Star Destroyer can acheive a jump to hyperspace roughly 30 seconds after it decides to do so. That means that no Mac Round will ever hit a Star Destroyer with even semi comptetant pilot who decides to play shoot and scoot with IoM ships.
2 Meter high, 30 metres long, rough volume of 376.991118431 m cubed. Assumed density of lead at 187.527633368 kg per cubic meter equals a mass of about 70697.9177799kgs per MAC round. Accelerated to 1.3 percent of the speed of light, (using the Mass Effect average for Dreadnought rounds due to lack of data on IoM muzzle velocity) results in 2.757x10^15 joules of energy released upon impact. Or about the equivalent of a one megaton bomb.
Before you answer, you should watch the bit in RotJ where a rebel ship blows away a star destroyer with a single salvo.
Thats understandable as they are firing weapons of the same calibre, what you just argued is that my 18th century ship of the line can sink your 21st century destroyer! You want proof? Watch x clip where a japanese destroyer sinks an american destroyer in WW2, it's totally got that kind of capability!
Kaldor wrote: Ok, well let's say the fighters making the trench run were travelling at half speed. So let's say that their top speed, using 360kph as a base, is actually 3,600 kph.
Why should we make that assumption? It's like watching a modern fighter jet landing (a situation where, like flying down a narrow trench where the slightest mistake is fatal, you don't fly at maximum speed) and concluding that it must be flying at half speed. Or consider their speed in combat, it's not very useful to fly at your maximum straight-line speed if you just immediately overshoot your target and leave the battle.
In reality, we see them orbit a gas giant and approach the death star in a very short period of time, which requires much higher top speeds than the video game. This could be a conflict, except the video game speeds are pure game mechanics. They exist because of the limitations of the game engine and having a playable, fun game. They appear nowhere else in Star Wars, so the only sensible thing to do is discard them, just like we discard the D6-based game mechanics where a marine has a 10% chance to die from a single lasgun hit.
Given the incredibly low speed of SW ships, and the solid ammunition of macro cannons, the range of 40K ships is effectively limitless. The rounds will continue to travel through space until they impact something.
While true they would continue on through space until contact, they would by no means actually hit the SW ships. If you're including X-Wing as canon for data, then we can assume that a Star Destroyer can acheive a jump to hyperspace roughly 30 seconds after it decides to do so. That means that no Mac Round will ever hit a Star Destroyer with even semi comptetant pilot who decides to play shoot and scoot with IoM ships.
Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Kaldor wrote: But 40K targeting cogitators are used to calculating firing solutions on targets traveling hundreds, if not thousands of times faster. This extends their range considerably.
Not really. No amount of targeting ability will change the fact that you can't predict a maneuver that hasn't started until after the shot is fired. For example, it would be impossible to hit a Star Wars ship with a macro cannon shot with half an hour flight time (as the fluff bit posted earlier mentions) since the ship could easily dodge and be across the system from where you were aiming by the time the shot arrives. Obviously with shorter flight times it's less of an issue, but unguided projectile weapons have pathetic range in space compared to beam weapons.
Oh, you know, punching through the crust of a planet. Just stuff like that.
Which Star Wars capital ships can do.
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Kaldor wrote: Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Until they jump straight to point blank range and open fire...
Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Except that Star Wars can mix the two while the IoM cannot. Heck we did it even in the video game. It's common to just load up a b-wing, hyperspace jump to the enemy Star Destroyers location, dump all your torpedoes and hyper jump away. Our average combat speed for actual distance traveled is something like 20 000 kms in roughly a minute and a half.
Kaldor wrote: Ok, well let's say the fighters making the trench run were travelling at half speed. So let's say that their top speed, using 360kph as a base, is actually 3,600 kph.
Why should we make that assumption? It's like watching a modern fighter jet landing (a situation where, like flying down a narrow trench where the slightest mistake is fatal, you don't fly at maximum speed) and concluding that it must be flying at half speed. Or consider their speed in combat, it's not very useful to fly at your maximum straight-line speed if you just immediately overshoot your target and leave the battle.
lmao, ok, ok.
Let's assume that the fighters making the trench run were travelling at 0.5 percent of their top speed.
Congratulations, the Eisenstein is now only 75 times faster than the top speed of an x-wing!
Given the incredibly low speed of SW ships, and the solid ammunition of macro cannons, the range of 40K ships is effectively limitless. The rounds will continue to travel through space until they impact something.
While true they would continue on through space until contact, they would by no means actually hit the SW ships. If you're including X-Wing as canon for data, then we can assume that a Star Destroyer can acheive a jump to hyperspace roughly 30 seconds after it decides to do so. That means that no Mac Round will ever hit a Star Destroyer with even semi comptetant pilot who decides to play shoot and scoot with IoM ships.
Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Do remember that they only need to jump ahead by one ship length and the shells already fired are now destined to hit empty space. You would require a guided munition to compensate for this kind of tactic. This can be repeated many, many, times as required. Not to mention standard sublight evasive maneuvering.
Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Except that Star Wars can mix the two while the IoM cannot. Heck we did it even in the video game. It's common to just load up a b-wing, hyperspace jump to the enemy Star Destroyers location, dump all your torpedoes and hyper jump away. Our average combat speed for actual distance traveled is something like 20 000 kms in roughly a minute and a half.
Which would be impressive, except that the Eisenstein could cover 135,000 kms in the same time...
Ratbarf wrote: Or about the equivalent of a one megaton bomb.
Or about the equivalent of the guns on a Star Wars starfighter.
Thats understandable as they are firing weapons of the same calibre, what you just argued is that my 18th century ship of the line can sink your 21st century destroyer! You want proof? Watch x clip where a japanese destroyer sinks an american destroyer in WW2, it's totally got that kind of capability!
My point is that even if you assume the target is made out of boring old iron that's still a lot of firepower to blow it up with a single salvo.
Congratulations, the Eisenstein is now only 75 times faster than the top speed of an x-wing!
Congratulations! You could totally manuvre and switch directions and facings really really quickly while moving at that speed right? Oh, you can't? Well I guess that explains why IoM ships take about a week to drop to combat speed after entering a system....
Face it, for all intents and purposes SW tech simply massively outperforms 40k tech to the point of nigh invincibility. I would be like fighting cave men with modern armies, yeah their axe/spear can technically kill you, you'll be damned lucky to even get the chance to land the blow.
Kaldor wrote: Let's assume that the fighters making the trench run were travelling at 0.5 percent of their top speed.
Why? Why should we make ANY assumption about it? You just keep picking arbitrary numbers, I could just as easily suggest that 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% of their maximum speed (as much as that means anything in space) was as fast as they could fly in the trench without crashing.
Plus, it's acceleration that matters, not top speed (which is c for everything), and we see Star Wars ships demonstrate acceleration way beyond anything in the game mechanics you quoted.
Well, yeah if the Empire spends all their time in Hyperspace they can avoid getting obliterated. But that's kinda the point, in realspace/sublight they don't stand a chance.
Except that Star Wars can mix the two while the IoM cannot. Heck we did it even in the video game. It's common to just load up a b-wing, hyperspace jump to the enemy Star Destroyers location, dump all your torpedoes and hyper jump away. Our average combat speed for actual distance traveled is something like 20 000 kms in roughly a minute and a half.
Which would be impressive, except that the Eisenstein could cover 135,000 kms in the same time...
Truthfully, I believe that in naval warfare, Star Wars ships would be able to evade most IoM firepower at extreme range, but potentially lack the ability to return it as they need to evade. In order to attack the faster IoM ships, however, they would need to hyper-jump into close quarters ahead of the target vessel, bombard, then jump again out of range. This makes both vessels vulnerable but favours the Star Wars vessels due to their smaller size and ability to 'get under the guns'.
I truthfully think that if it was a ground based conflict, the IoM would win every time. In space, the crazy numbers involved with SW weaponry and shielding makes them immense weapons of destruction.
Which would be impressive, except that the Eisenstein could cover 135,000 kms in the same time...
Okay, lets talk top speed. The Eisenstein could clear, say, one AU in how much time? I don't actually know so you'll have to tell me.
Any Star Wars ship equipped with a hyperdrive can do that distance in under 2 minutes assuming it left a combat state and is timed until it returns to being at a state of combat readiness.
Now lets make that distance 10 AU, the Star Wars ships are still doing it in 2 minutes. How long is it taking the Eisenstein?
100 AU? 2 mintues for SW, what's the Eisenstein at?
I truthfully think that if it was a ground based conflict, the IoM would win every time. In space, the crazy numbers involved with SW weaponry and shielding makes them immense weapons of destruction.
The point I'm trying to make is that they use comparable technology on the ground as well, meaning that have these immense weapons of destruction and protection while all the imperial guard has is bodies bodies and some tanks sprinkled with atmospheric craft for flavoring.
Ratbarf wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that they use comparable technology on the ground as well, meaning that have these immense weapons of destruction and protection while all the imperial guard has is bodies bodies and some tanks sprinkled with atmospheric craft for flavoring.
To be fair, the premise of "on the ground" kind of rules out most of the advantage Star Wars has, since their weapons of mass destruction are mostly aboard the orbiting starships and ground attack fighters.
Well in the Clone Wars series they besiege cities that have shields that withstand the firepower of tens of Star Destroyer class ships for months. The imperium literally couldn't fit enough weapons close enough to the outside of the shield to generate enough energy to drop it. All the while the Clones will be able to fire their own weapons at targets outside of the shield.
Do 40k landers have shields? I was just thinking, if it was an Imperium force landing on a world controlled by Clones, then if their landers have no shielding, only their armour, then the chances of landing troops/vehicles are reduced.
I'd also say that although a Valkyrie has better speed to a LAAT/i, the LAAT/i has far better handling, as Valkyries and other ships like it have either a hover, or a flight mode. And need to reduce their speed to virtually stand still in order to go from one or the other, then do the same to swap again. It can't do both, as opposed to a LAAT/i which can fly sideways, forwards, backwards, etc at full speed with all its weapons aimed at a larger target. Also the LAAT/i has a flight time of like 8 hours, a Valkyrie at full speed can fly for less than 2.
If Valkyrie's aren't able to come in from orbit, and exit a planet then the ship carrying them, would need to skim the atmosphere, they would also need to spend X amount of time after entry cooling down before any weapon can be fired to reduce the effects of misfires or destroying the weapon outright. LAAT/i ships can rapidly deploy from a ship in orbit, descend and fire weapons upon arrival, the shields they have remove the problem that Valkyries and other Imperial ships would suffer doing the same.
But then ARC-170's have speed over all Imperium flyers it seems, and the ARC 170 and LAAT/i can jam their targets sensors/communications. Which means Imperial ships are left to sighting targets on their own, with no way to communicate.
Guess you could also interpret that Guardsmen as per the codex, under "Imperial Guard Orders" on page 29, that Guardsman can't think on their own, they require someone to tell them what to do. So how well will they function if their commander is taken out? Clones can act as one man squads, so perhaps, and its a perhaps, not a given, each clone is the equivalent of Guardsman Marbo ( a Guardsman who can actually function without being told what to do).
The bases of operation for each army would differ too, Clones can have a shielded and armoured compound, Imperial Guard have armoured compounds, no energy shields. Without a Psyker to detect them, Clone Shadow Troopers could perhaps enter an Imperial Guard facility and disable things, or just plant explosives in the ammo stores and/or promethian tanks which would leave the Guardsmen in a bind.
Plenty of what ifs that could give either side advantages or disadvantages though.
Which would be impressive, except that the Eisenstein could cover 135,000 kms in the same time...
Okay, lets talk top speed. The Eisenstein could clear, say, one AU in how much time? I don't actually know so you'll have to tell me.
Any Star Wars ship equipped with a hyperdrive can do that distance in under 2 minutes assuming it left a combat state and is timed until it returns to being at a state of combat readiness.
I truthfully think that if it was a ground based conflict, the IoM would win every time. In space, the crazy numbers involved with SW weaponry and shielding makes them immense weapons of destruction.
The point I'm trying to make is that they use comparable technology on the ground as well, meaning that have these immense weapons of destruction and protection while all the imperial guard has is bodies bodies and some tanks sprinkled with atmospheric craft for flavoring.
There's one big problem with using the technology on the ground, particularly with the defensive shields. It's been a very common theme in Star Wars that energy shields do not often block physical objects, and if they do, they are rare pieces of extra-advanced technology. Chemically-fired, solid-slug weapons are capable of penetrating such shielding, as are simple bodies passing through the field and fighting inside.
The same is true in space; If the shields of a Star Destroyer could absorb the kinetic energy of an asteroid impact why would they even bother shooting it?
Secondly, incredibly gigantic ground-based turbolasers are fantastic against titans etc. but they can't be used against massed infantry if they're pushing on your lines. Wouldn't want to turbolaser your own troops.
Quick Edit: Missile batteries are almost always a secondary armament of all but a few SW ships. Of those, only concussion missiles would be able to penetrate shielding. Bombardment in the SW universe is rather inefficient.
Edit #2: I also think that perhaps the best way to fight ships from the SW universe is through the use of strike craft with torpedo payloads or boarding.
... For real? Is that a real comparison? Gonna have to give Guardsmen the edge. Their armour seems at least a little more functional than storm, er... clone trooper's.
I'm not sure, but offensively, a Lasgun and a Blaster seem very similar. Seeing as flak armor stops lasgun rounds (ap none against a 5+ save ), and blaster rounds seem to go right through plastic clone armor, I'd have to give that to guardsmen too.
And if the guardsmen have mortars, or missiles, or heavy bolters? I don't want to think about all the armor that would be littered across the battlefield.
The same is true in space; If the shields of a Star Destroyer could absorb the kinetic energy of an asteroid impact why would they even bother shooting it?
Secondly, incredibly gigantic ground-based turbolasers are fantastic against titans etc. but they can't be used against massed infantry if they're pushing on your lines. Wouldn't want to turbolaser your own troops.
Ask George lucas to the first thing. I don't really think he knows waaaay too much about science/physics.
Also, shields do work against physical objects, otherwise the Millenium Falcon and other Rebel Fighters wouldn't have had to knock out the shield generator on Endor before attempting to fly in to the Death Star 2's engine.
Obi Wan Kenobi also had to turn off the tractor beams/shields of the Death Star otherwise Luke would not have been able to escape as the ships would have just crashed into the shield and exploded.
As for the second, they have the energy capability of setting up Heavy Repeating Blasters literally in a dome if they wanted to, so there would be a flattened killing area of about 10 kilometers filled with a never ending blanket of Blaster plasma.
Samus_aran115 wrote: ... For real? Is that a real comparison? Gonna have to give Guardsmen the edge. Their armour seems at least a little more functional than storm, er... clone trooper's.
I'm not sure, but offensively, a Lasgun and a Blaster seem very similar. Seeing as flak armor stops lasgun rounds (ap none against a 5+ save ), and blaster rounds seem to go right through plastic clone armor, I'd have to give that to guardsmen too.
And if the guardsmen have mortars, or missiles, or heavy bolters? I don't want to think about all the armor that would be littered across the battlefield.
As I touched on in my first post on this thread, Star Wars handheld blasters are far above and beyond power output of a simple lasgun. Plasteel armour of later stormtroopers, for example, is designed to allow the wearer to survive a glancing hit. Direct hits are always highly lethal. It's not that the armour is bad, it's that it's technology is nowhere near as advanced as the insane-o weapons that people carry around in Star Wars. If anything, I'd say that the armour worn by clones is pretty much the same as Guardsman Flak with better coverage.
The same is true in space; If the shields of a Star Destroyer could absorb the kinetic energy of an asteroid impact why would they even bother shooting it?
Secondly, incredibly gigantic ground-based turbolasers are fantastic against titans etc. but they can't be used against massed infantry if they're pushing on your lines. Wouldn't want to turbolaser your own troops.
Ask George lucas to the first thing. I don't really think he knows waaaay too much about science/physics.
Also, shields do work against physical objects, otherwise the Millenium Falcon and other Rebel Fighters wouldn't have had to knock out the shield generator on Endor before attempting to fly in to the Death Star 2's engine.
Obi Wan Kenobi also had to turn off the tractor beams/shields of the Death Star otherwise Luke would not have been able to escape as the ships would have just crashed into the shield and exploded.
As for the second, they have the energy capability of setting up Heavy Repeating Blasters literally in a dome if they wanted to, so there would be a flattened killing area of
I think the real problem is that particle shields which CAN block physical projectiles draw more energy. You need a Death-Star grade reactor to project one around something that size. Building one of those on a planet is probably not feasible. Under the crust, perhaps. Regardless, I would say that the SW technology is still more susceptible to kinetic bombardment, if not truly vulnerable.
Off the top of my head, the Death Star is the only 'vessel' I know of in SW that can project such a massive particle shield. Food for thought.
Repeating blasters are easily countered with 'Send in the Next wave' ;D
I think the real problem is that particle shields which CAN block physical projectiles draw more energy. You need a Death-Star grade reactor to project one around something that size. Building one of those on a planet is probably not feasible. Under the crust, perhaps. Regardless, I would say that the SW technology is still more susceptible to kinetic bombardment, if not truly vulnerable.
Off the top of my head, the Death Star is the only 'vessel' I know of in SW that can project such a massive particle shield. Food for thought.
Actually, in the second movie it was a ground based installation of not exactly significant size. The only reason the rebels were able to take it out was because they infiltrated the shield system with a stolen ship and IFF code.
And since the IoM doesn't have any Bothans who can lose their lives attaining it I don't think they'll be able to replicate the action.
I think the real problem is that particle shields which CAN block physical projectiles draw more energy. You need a Death-Star grade reactor to project one around something that size. Building one of those on a planet is probably not feasible. Under the crust, perhaps. Regardless, I would say that the SW technology is still more susceptible to kinetic bombardment, if not truly vulnerable.
Off the top of my head, the Death Star is the only 'vessel' I know of in SW that can project such a massive particle shield. Food for thought.
Actually, in the second movie it was a ground based installation of not exactly significant size. The only reason the rebels were able to take it out was because they infiltrated the shield system with a stolen ship and IFF code.
And since the IoM doesn't have any Bothans who can lose their lives attaining it I don't think they'll be able to replicate the action.
Oh gosh, you're right. That being the case, however, there's no telling how big that installation really is and how extensive it's coverage was. It is rather vulnerable however, I'm sure even IoM has scouts that could find it.
Edit: Oh, If I recall right, it was the command bunker that the rebels infiltrated. We really have no idea how large the development was.
Ratbarf wrote: Well in the Clone Wars series they besiege cities that have shields that withstand the firepower of tens of Star Destroyer class ships for months. The imperium literally couldn't fit enough weapons close enough to the outside of the shield to generate enough energy to drop it. All the while the Clones will be able to fire their own weapons at targets outside of the shield.
A few continent busters later and the Imperium's fleet is on their way.
I think you're underestimating 40klol. You do realize 40k has stuff like lasers that can carve through through a planet's crust and penetrate its mantle and core, or being strong enough to smash a planet off it's orbit, right?
I'm not sure it's so much of a finding thing, as a getting in thing. As the shield blocks all ground traffic as well. (I would assume other wise the rebels could have just walked into the shield instead of having to espionage their way in.
I'm not sure it's so much of a finding thing, as a getting in thing. As the shield blocks all ground traffic as well. (I would assume other wise the rebels could have just walked into the shield instead of having to espionage their way in.
I think that perhaps some Ordo Hereticus assassins would do the trick, provided they had a location. They do seem pretty sneaky. But wot duz I know. I'z just a Big Mek! Sneekin is for panzees.
I think you're underestimating 40klol. You do realize 40k has stuff like lasers that can carve through through a planet's crust and penetrate its mantle and core, or being strong enough to smash a planet off it's orbit, right?
Where? I do remember penetrating the planets crust to its core, but that's not really such a significant feat. Heck we could do it if we wanted to....
You know what is a significant feat? Having a weapon that causes an explosion so powerful that it defeats the gravitational bond of an earth like planet. That's downright insane in scope.
A few continent busters later and the Imperium's fleet is on their way.
Except the imperial Guard doesn't actually have continent busters. And even if we're including the IoM navy, if you had read my earlier posts you would realize that they are incredibly outclassed when it comes to both strategic level speed and firepower. (I'll give you the realspace speed title but that doesn't really matter as SW actually wins when it comes to getting places they need to be as fast as they can.)
I think you're underestimating 40klol. You do realize 40k has stuff like lasers that can carve through through a planet's crust and penetrate its mantle and core, or being strong enough to smash a planet off it's orbit, right?
Where? I do remember penetrating the planets crust to its core, but that's not really such a significant feat. Heck we could do it if we wanted to....
You know what is a significant feat? Having a weapon that causes an explosion so powerful that it defeats the gravitational bond of an earth like planet. That's downright insane in scope.
A few continent busters later and the Imperium's fleet is on their way.
Except the imperial Guard doesn't actually have continent busters. And even if we're including the IoM navy, if you had read my earlier posts you would realize that they are incredibly outclassed when it comes to both strategic level speed and firepower. (I'll give you the realspace speed title but that doesn't really matter as SW actually wins when it comes to getting places they need to be as fast as they can.)
It was at that moment that Magron noticed something happening on the planetoid below. A glow was emanating from it, becoming brighter and brighter. Despite the raging space battle ranging over the planetoid, the Imperial task force had managed to sustain the laser barrage. Now it was working, and what was more, it was working better than its directors had planned. The beams had scythed through the planet, had cut aside the crust and had delved deep into the mantle in search of the deep keeps. And now, what had not been intended - they had penetrated to the hot liquid metal core of the planetoid.
And yeah, that was the force apparently generated by a Planetary Defence System.
"Unchecked the death cultists gained access to part of the defence missile silo network, and in a suicidal rage unleashed a rain of atomic and plasma warheads which shattered its hive cities and succeeded in disrupting the planet's orbit for several years. The reuslting permanent winter, radioactive fallout and tectonic upheavals annihilated all life on Cygnax."
Well the Imperial Guard themselves wouldn't likely take down a shield that required orbital bombardment lol. And I dun know much about them speedwise (I did read earlier that 40k ships have an effective range leading into the hundreds of thousands of km but that's about it). As far as getting places, I agree, Warp travel is complete garbage compared to Hyperdrive.
@Final Answer. Hmm, thanks for the quotes. They are appreciated.
Now, in comparison to a Star Destroyers main weapon, they would also be capable of producing the first result. Not so sure about the second because they don't really work with kinematics per se, so I don't know if they could knock a planet off course, I certainly do however know that they could burrow into a planets core with ease. Being able to keep a sustained bombardment with a weapon that has the power of 700 billion megatons of conventional explosives.
Peregrine wrote: No, they're based on the demonstrated capabilities from the canon films. For example, exploding asteroids with point defense guns (a simple calculation for firepower), the acceleration rates of a star destroyer (again, can calculate minimum power output), a rebel ship at Endor blowing away a star destroyer with a single salvo, etc. Like it or not, Star Wars ships display massive firepower.
But at the same time they display dazzlingly short ranges and low speeds. I think the top speed of an X-wing is something like 300kph? And weapon ranges are usually less than a kilometer?
40K would obliterate the Empire or Republic in space. It'd be like matching an F22 against a Steamroller.
edit:
A x-wing is given a top speed of 100 megalights per hour, which is approximately 360 kph.
We also have this excerpt from 'Flight of the Eisenstien'
‘It’s a long distance,’ mused Garro. ‘We’ll have to travel several light-seconds at maximum burn to get there, and with the drives at full, it will light a torch to show Horus where we’re heading.’
Each light second is roughly 300,000 kilometers. Or an eight hundred hour trip for an X-wing traveling at top speed.
40K ships are several orders of magnitude faster than their SW counterparts, and engage at ranges that would make SW blush with shame.
You and I have been over this before.
For one thing, the very article that mentions "megalights" that you like to bring up mentions that the "megalight" scale probably isn't canon. As well, it's contradicted by numerous in-universe events- escape velocity is 40,000kph, which makes the notion that X-Wings, ships that we have seen transition from the ground to space in less than a few minutes, having a top speed of only 360kph laughable. I mean hell- the X-Wing wookie article states that X-Wings have a top speed of 1000+kph, which contradicts the megalight notion.
For another, there is a ton of WH40K sources that show Imperium ships as being slow as gak outside of the Warp. Mechanicum mentions that asKITARRI ship takes over a day to travel from Earth to Mars.The Path of the Seer states that it took Imperium ships "the better part of a day" to travel halfway across a single solar system in order to engage Alaitoc. In Deliverance Lost, it's noted that Corax's ship, which is modified to be superior to most Imperium Ships, took several hours to reach a distance far enough away from the sun's gravity that it could enter warp speed, etc.
So, we can all sit here and lowball till the cows come home- but c'mon bra. You need to let these quotes you've got bookmarked go.
EDIT- And where the hell is this "flak armor protects against las rounds" stuff come from? Every single peice of Guardsmen fluff ever written shows las bolts tearing through flak armor like it's tissue paper unless it's a glancing shot. Hell, bayonets fixed to the end of lasguns is affective against flak armor in the fluff, if Gaunt's Ghosts is anything to go by.
edit: nvm they overloaded the planet or something lol
Then there's this quote from Nemesis
"Every weapon in the battleship's arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface - torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations." - Nemesis, Pg. 375
Boiling oceans and what not lol.
And, while not precisely conventional weaponry
Dark Heresy - The Radical's Handbook:
As for Phaenon Prime, some within the Malleus judged that the corruption of so many hardened to the wiles of the Warp so quickly could not be coincidence. Some dark force dwelled there, they believed, although whether it had always been so or that something had been brought there to fatally spread its influence like a virus remained unknown.
In any case, the priesthood of Mars were happy to grant the Calixian Conclave's request. By the dictate of the Fabricator General himself, they marshalled the power of their city-sized voidships and tore a moon from its natural orbit to strike Phaenon Prime, smashing the planet to fragments.
But I think that's it for tonight, give myself a break from scouring the interwebz for these feats.
Both of those things happen in the Star Wars universe, I know of at least one incident where a moon is dropped on a planet. And a Star Destroyers Turbo Lasers have enough energy to boil all of the water on earth in about 2 to 3 minutes.
BlaxicanX wrote: Mechanicum mentions that asKITARRI ship takes over a day to travel from Earth to Mars.
Which would give it a lazy old average speed of nine million kilometers per hour.
Simple fact is SW ships lack the capability to travel at the speeds necessary to compete with the Imperium. They can flit in and out of hyperspace all day long, but the second they try and fight an engagement they're toast.
Oh I wouldn't say that, I mean, nearly all SWs weapons are at the speed of light, so it doesn't really matter that you're out running us in realspace. The fact that IoM guns can't hit a SWs ships while a SWs weapons can hit an IoM's ship kind of seals the deal here.
Ratbarf wrote: Oh I wouldn't say that, I mean, nearly all SWs weapons are at the speed of light, so it doesn't really matter that you're out running us in realspace. The fact that IoM guns can't hit a SWs ships while a SWs weapons can hit an IoM's ship kind of seals the deal here.
As are all lanced based weapons. And the lasers seen in SW are anything but the speed of light!
Peak reactor output for a Executor class SSD is 7.73x10^26 and maximum shield power at 3.8x10^26.
The nova cannon was chosen as the basis due to the commonly accepted nature of its output (the explosion has often been described as equal in output to a star). Assuming a maximum potential of damage equal to the output of the sun ( a smaller star) we can calculate the maximum output of any ship from BFG. If you have a problem with this please let me know what you would consider for the potential damage output, not that this is not taking into account if the shell actually hits the target we are only talking the "center" of the blast which would have full effect out to about 3000km and taper off from there to about 5000km (game play, could go larger in fluff but meh)
We can assume from the fluff and game play that a Sword class frigate would have a maximum weaponery output of around 2.5333333x10^26. This puts a 1.6km frigate pretty darn close to knocking out your shields... The sword is able to fire this without any loss of power elsewhere and the fire can be focued in any direction with excpetion to the rear cone.
Pretty sure 40k rocks it like Texas baby yea!
On speed its really a non issue you hyper in, fire, get hit by return fire before you can calculate new hyperspace jump assuming you have a commander stupid enough to try and make jumps like this in the middle of a battle.
All SW weapons i've ever seen with exception of maybe Beam style lasers the blasts travel rather slowly and are comparable to a bullet or a dang slow one for that matter.'
Turbo laser blasts in space are strangly slow too.
Torpedos are obviously slower then light but can easily outright any fighter craft even a full sized ship. the more powerful oens are unguided but those are often short ranged the longest ranged ones are guided.
Macro Cannon blasts travel at increbible speed yet compared to a ships speed they are "slow"
Nova Cannon blasts are a fraction of the speed of light.
Lance Blasts ARE the speed of light
And please learn the difference between power and energy.
When you're done with that, learn what the inverse square law is and how it applies to explosions in space (such as nova cannons). Hint: you can start with the "full effect out to 3000km" part.
Finally, Sword class frigates don't have nova cannons (which seem to be battleship-only), so I really have no idea what you're talking about with this comparison.
danp164 wrote: Just because you can quote numbers from fictional tech specs doesn't prove technological superiority. you can;t mathematically judge the efficiency of Star Wars technology based on a set of numbers that lets be fair, the writer of said tech specs snatched out of thin air. Lets be fair to accomplish enough power to run the weapons plus, say the ships reversing lights, would take a reactor with enough fissionable materials to have to tow a small sun behind it.
No, they're based on the demonstrated capabilities from the canon films. For example, exploding asteroids with point defense guns (a simple calculation for firepower), the acceleration rates of a star destroyer (again, can calculate minimum power output), a rebel ship at Endor blowing away a star destroyer with a single salvo, etc. Like it or not, Star Wars ships display massive firepower.
Without relying on somewhat suspect tech specs your comparison is relegated to comparing the respective technologies in action, the empire took decades to build a massive space station capable of destroying a planet, The IoM's chosen method of comparable destruction being a single cyclonic torpedo which can be carried by a naval escort is needs be.
Actually the Empire took about three years (at most) to build one, and that was even bigger than the first death star.
And the thing that's impressive about the death star isn't that it destroys a planet, it's that it explodes the planet. A single shot applies so much energy to the planet that its remains are thrown outward at impressive speed, leaving nothing but a rapidly expanding cloud of dust. And, again, this something where we can easily calculate the firepower required, and the answer is unimaginably huge.
Weaponry wise, blasters and las weapons are fairly comparably crap.
Wait, are we talking about the same blasters that have the firepower of a modern grenade launcher (at least), full automatic rate of fire, and massive ammunition capacity?
The average IG regiment has a FAR larger access to Air and mechanized support
Actually they have NO air support. Air support is provided by the Imperial Navy, which has been specifically excluded.
-snip-
Ok to address points in series.
1. Im not saying those numbers arent possible in magical fairy land, im saying they wouldn't work within even the broadest laws of physics
2. First Death star took between episode 3 and episode 4 to build, CRIKEY Luke must;ve grown up quickly in 3 years.
3. Those blasters, using the canon movies as reference, manage a scorch mark on most armor, grenade launchers do considerably more than that, although id be happy to refer you to our 40k bolters that actually ARE fully automatic grenade launchers.
4. 3 Words. Elysian Drop Troopers. Here a clue, they don't RENT the Valkryies and Vendettas. There are multiple Guard regiments that deploy via aircraft, Naval forces normally consist or orbital hardware and upper atmosphere superiority fighters.
And please learn the difference between power and energy.
When you're done with that, learn what the inverse square law is and how it applies to explosions in space (such as nova cannons). Hint: you can start with the "full effect out to 3000km" part.
Finally, Sword class frigates don't have nova cannons (which seem to be battleship-only), so I really have no idea what you're talking about with this comparison.
I thought it was pretty clear here that I was refering to power here... Just to lay it out for you. Peak shield power for the Executor: 3.8x10^26 W ( I am assuming this to be the power required to disable the shield since it should in itself not generate power please correct me if im wrong?) Peak power generated from a Nova cannon explosion assuming a star to be equal to or less than our own sun (a smaller star) 3.8x10^26 W (wonder where they came up with that magic number for the shield power....) From this we can calculate the power output generated by other weapons in BFG: A nova has a maximum potential of 6 damage compared to a weapon battery which has the potential for 1 damage.
A sword has 4 weapons giving its weapons a maximum potential power generated of roughly 2/3 the maximum power of a nova cannon or somewhere around 2.5x10^26 W. Not that this is the actual number of weapons on said ship, just the value given to them for game play.
Obviously an explosion is going to gradualy lessen as it expands, I clearly misrepresented the effect by my statement, sorry .
Novas are available on cruisers, battle cruisers and battleships.
In reference to the whole Naval debate, it seems reasonably likely that the IN would arrive at let's say, a fuel dump or a staging area. This would force the Star Wars fleet to either respond in force to save the vulnerable area thus getting into fight that the IN would likely win through sheer weight in fire. Or the SW fleet could leave the engaged area alone, loosing a percentage of manpower and resources. This would mean that the SW fleet would either defend their other vulnerable areas thereby decreasing their offensive capability or slowly bleed to death through a series of operations like the afore-mentioned scenario.
Just want to point out in ep iv the gang is being chased by 3 isds and han takes evasive action... And banks slowly to the left. Point being the isds couldnt hit a slowly turning ship.
All SW weapons i've ever seen with exception of maybe Beam style lasers the blasts travel rather slowly and are comparable to a bullet or a dang slow one for that matter.'
Turbo laser blasts in space are strangly slow too.
It would be an incredibly boring movie if the bolts moved at their actual velocity, as you wouldn't be able to see them then the majority of the time.
2. First Death star took between episode 3 and episode 4 to build, CRIKEY Luke must;ve grown up quickly in 3 years.
The Death Star 2 from the sixth film is constructed and "fully operational" within the space of three years.
From this we can calculate the power output generated by other weapons in BFG: A nova has a maximum potential of 6 damage compared to a weapon battery which has the potential for 1 damage.
This isn't really all that applicable as game mechanics don't really transfer well into reality, ie, a Space Marine in power armour having the same strength as a built Catachan.
In reference to the whole Naval debate, it seems reasonably likely that the IN would arrive at let's say, a fuel dump or a staging area. This would force the Star Wars fleet to either respond in force to save the vulnerable area thus getting into fight that the IN would likely win through sheer weight in fire. Or the SW fleet could leave the engaged area alone, loosing a percentage of manpower and resources. This would mean that the SW fleet would either defend their other vulnerable areas thereby decreasing their offensive capability or slowly bleed to death through a series of operations like the afore-mentioned scenario.
Actually it would likely work in the opposite, it takes roughly a week or so for SW ships to traverse the Galaxy, the equivalent for IoM ships is months if not years. So by means of Local Superiority it would almost always be to the advantage of the SW side. So while the IoM fleet is in the warp trying to get to the ship yards, assume transit time of a month, the SWs fleet could have crossed the Galaxy and come back twice. Hyperspace beats the pants off of Warp Drive, essentially it's like fighting horse archers with heavy infantry.
Just want to point out in ep iv the gang is being chased by 3 isds and han takes evasive action... And banks slowly to the left. Point being the isds couldnt hit a slowly turning ship.
And I would like to point out plot armour. Wouldn't be much of a movie if Han got blown up in the first 20 minutes.
BlaxicanX wrote: Mechanicum mentions that asKITARRI ship takes over a day to travel from Earth to Mars.
Which would give it a lazy old average speed of nine million kilometers per hour.
Simple fact is SW ships lack the capability to travel at the speeds necessary to compete with the Imperium.
And that quote shows that that's simply not true. 1. It doesn't state that the ship made the journey in 24 hours- it says "more than a day", meaning it could have been two or even three days. 2. A Star Wars ship wouldn't take that long to reach Mars from Earth, thus implying that the speed gap you keep mentioning isn't as deep as you're trying to assert. The Millenium Falcon traveled from Hoth to Bespin with no hyper-drive in only a couple of days, and that's with the Falcon hiding inside a giant worm for awhile and on the back of Star Destroyer adding time to the trip. Considering that Bespin is two solar systems away from Hoth, that would mean that without using a hyperdrive, the Falcon managed to travel a farrrrrrrrrr faaaaaaaaar greater distance than the ships I mentioned above, and in much less time.
Simply put, you claim that Imperium ships move much faster than Star Wars ships, yet it's never been shown nor stated that it takes SW ships anywhere near a day to travel from a distance such as Earth to Mars, whereas there are several BL sources that imply as much for Imperium ships.
True, game stats are not always the most accurate, but this is a game not a movie meaning that if anything i would assume the fluff to be wrong not the game. Besides the fluff for BFG (while not always accurate as all fluff ) describes the nova as equivalent to more than a dozen plasma bombs, the primary weapon of imperial bombers which although powerful were proven inferior to direct fire weaponery. I know that this is terrably inaccurate and honestly i know nothing about calculating this crap im shooting in the dark here . i however also dont see them building such similarly sized ships and their destructive abilities being so different :/ reguardless i love the back ground for both of these.
Earth to mars is also dependant on their position, the type of ship, how fast they want to get there...
To be completely honest 1,200,000 million units has long been debated whether or not it is actually 1 trooper or something more. Judging by the evidence supplied I would go with the ladder considering the number of driod numbered in the quintillions. 1200000 would not be close to accurate. To be honest I would say that clone would win on the basis that
1. They are bred for war
2. I would say more advanced weapons (ex a clone troopers rifle has a range of several kilometers without any adjustments and the fact that the troopers rifle can blow a .5m hole into a solid feracrete wall pretty much is more advanced than guardsmen weapons plus its plasma)
3. They don't need commissars(imperial guardsmen tend to have low morale/ run from battle sometimes)
4. Unlike the Imperial guard the clone can essentially fight in any type of warfare ( that is the usual tatics of the guard tend to revolve around the heavy use of armor formations and siege warfare)
5. Clone are not used as cannon fodder (which occurs with the orders of the Imperial generals)
6 The Imperial guard essentially has a few notable armies (example the death korps, cadians etc) which are good but does not make up the bulk of the imperial guard which results in many armies being essentially worthless or less than efficient compared to those armies (ex the betrayal on caida during the 13th black crusade
I play DKOK army, with LotD attatched, & an Imperial Knight.
Guard have numbers, are only human, have lots of vehicles, have psychers (sometimes they can use them?)...
Clone troopers are bio-engineered to ignore fear, pain, and will always obey orders. The basic clone trooper is geared like the best guard trooper. They have Jedi leading them. They have more advanced weapons & tech & vehicles.
Clones would trump guard 9/10 times. I think Clones versus Space Marines might be a closer poll in comparison...
BlaxicanX wrote: Mechanicum mentions that asKITARRI ship takes over a day to travel from Earth to Mars.
Which would give it a lazy old average speed of nine million kilometers per hour.
Simple fact is SW ships lack the capability to travel at the speeds necessary to compete with the Imperium.
And that quote shows that that's simply not true. 1. It doesn't state that the ship made the journey in 24 hours- it says "more than a day", meaning it could have been two or even three days. 2. A Star Wars ship wouldn't take that long to reach Mars from Earth, thus implying that the speed gap you keep mentioning isn't as deep as you're trying to assert. The Millenium Falcon traveled from Hoth to Bespin with no hyper-drive in only a couple of days, and that's with the Falcon hiding inside a giant worm for awhile and on the back of Star Destroyer adding time to the trip. Considering that Bespin is two solar systems away from Hoth, that would mean that without using a hyperdrive, the Falcon managed to travel a farrrrrrrrrr faaaaaaaaar greater distance than the ships I mentioned above, and in much less time.
Simply put, you claim that Imperium ships move much faster than Star Wars ships, yet it's never been shown nor stated that it takes SW ships anywhere near a day to travel from a distance such as Earth to Mars, whereas there are several BL sources that imply as much for Imperium ships.
To be honest space travel in both worlds would inherently put each other at disadvantages. SW in 40k would have no clue the mapping of the galaxy and thus would have very slow space travel. 40k in SW wouldn't have warp travel (probably) and thus lose. If they did, then they are slower admittedly they would be on the offensive so it wouldn't matter as much (but SW would be able to respond faster).
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deathgod1990 wrote: To be completely honest 1,200,000 million units has long been debated whether or not it is actually 1 trooper or something more. Judging by the evidence supplied I would go with the ladder considering the number of driod numbered in the quintillions. 1200000 would not be close to accurate. To be honest I would say that clone would win on the basis that 1. They are bred for war 2. I would say more advanced weapons (ex a clone troopers rifle has a range of several kilometers without any adjustments and the fact that the troopers rifle can blow a .5m hole into a solid feracrete wall pretty much is more advanced than guardsmen weapons plus its plasma) 3. They don't need commissars(imperial guardsmen tend to have low morale/ run from battle sometimes) 4. Unlike the Imperial guard the clone can essentially fight in any type of warfare ( that is the usual tatics of the guard tend to revolve around the heavy use of armor formations and siege warfare) 5. Clone are not used as cannon fodder (which occurs with the orders of the Imperial generals) 6 The Imperial guard essentially has a few notable armies (example the death korps, cadians etc) which are good but does not make up the bulk of the imperial guard which results in many armies being essentially worthless or less than efficient compared to those armies (ex the betrayal on caida during the 13th black crusade
1. Yeah gotta agree with you there. IG have some but it is much more variable (DKoK is an example of one that is bred) 2. I wouldn't quite say that. Clone Trooper plasma probably isn't Imperial Guard tier plasma although it might be. That's the problem. We can't really judge. Both seem to have comedically bad armor and pretty sub sttandard guns 3. To be fair IG go against far worse things than Clone Troopers every day 4. I agree with you here! No matter what, IG are forced to struggle more with combined arms methods 5. I'll have to say the movies don't make that convincing (really they are cannon fodder. Clones are treated like sub-human to be tossed around to fight the droids) 6. This isn't really quite fair considering IG really means everything from terribly press ganged to service to super trained
Anyways, as per the victory. I think SW have the advantage in equal number conflicts however when it comes to long scale battles SW just doesn't have enough boots to make it (keep in mind many Imperial planets are heavily deffended from the get-go)
Yeah, basically, I'll give it to the clones in equal numbers almost any days, but the IG can afford to outnumber the clone a thousand to one and not really care.
If we assume equal numbers and equal resources committed (Equal total resources, not equal percentage of all resources available to the factions) the Clones roll over the Guardsmen.
Bearing in mind the technological superiority of the Star Wars setting... Surely stating how useless clone armour is when its used to resist the type of advanced laser weaponry in the Star Wars universe is a bit pointless?
Las carbines are mass produced in their billions, and are prone to numerous faults if it even works when you get it. Couple that with some hardwearing fatigues, slap a mass produced cheap flak vest on your average joe conscripted human who probably doesn't even want to be there and you have your average Imperial Guard grunt.
Now take an army of clones who were genetically copied from a galaxy-notorious warrior. They were grown and shaped to be soldiers, are capable of incredible battlefield synergy (they all think fairly similarly I would imagine) and have access to the best armour and equipment which was also commissioned along with the army, and produced in an era where mankind is NOT in the middle of a technological regression comparable to the Dark Ages.
We're all fans of Imperial Guard, and it's no secret that they are the underdogs and win through sheer weight of numbers, but on any given battlefield with no numerical advantage on either side, the Clones will win hands down.
The training of the Clones more closely matches the warrior-monk aesthetics of the Space Marines than it does the basic combat training of the Imperial Guard.
I think the closest match to Jango Fett, who is knotorious throughout the galaxy for being a ruthless and skilled bounty hunter and assassin, would be an Imperial Assassin. Same ruthlessness, quick thinking, and combat prowess.
Now consider creating an army of soldiers with the same genetic makeup as an Imperial Assassin and pitching them against an army of grunts as young as twelve who can barely hold their rifle...
It should also be noted that the Clone Trooper's weapons can be used in a variety of functions, not just as lethal munitions. Also, their bog-standard medipacs are light-years beyond anything (short of a Psyker magically healing people) the Imperium can field, and can return injured soldiers to the battle in a matter of minutes to hours, at worst, rather than requiring medical evac and long recuperative periods.
There were 3 million clones made & an equal number of support droids and personnel...
Also consider how quickly the Grand Army expanded. In a single year, at least 1.8 million clone troopers were produced (that is combat ready & all!) -- probably more than that, to account for losses among the original 1.2 million clones.
Also, consider that the Grand Army of the Republic wasn't designed to win a war. The entirety of the Clone Wars is all smoke and mirrors, plotted by Darth Sidious to justify his attempt to take over the Republic. *** In order for the ruse to work, the clones couldn't be too good or too numerous, or they'd be able to take down the Separatists in a fair fight. ***
Now Imperial Stormtroopers actually numbered tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and of stormtroopers.
If you actually look at the Star Wars canon/fluff, Storm Troopers are actually boss. It's just the movies that make them look bad. Also, if the movies were made now, Storm Troopers would be heaps better. I say Clones. Blaster's are better than Laspistols. Guard don't even have a movie after them. Bleh
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus Storm trooper technology and equipment far outstrips the Imperium.
kinratha wrote: Holy hell. Alright everyone listen up becasue I'm only going to say this nicely once. 40k beats any; ANY other Sc-Fi army out there.
I know this is a very very late comment but I see you have neglected one tiny little Sci-Fi army:
THE BORG
They will almost Immediately adapt to all of the Imperium's weapons, assimilate the Guardsman, assimilate psychers, assimilate Titan Tech, ASSIMILATE ALL
Resistance is Futile.
Clones from movies 2 & 3 would have a BS of at least three and their gun S should be three as well.
But goddamnit, those retards from the original movies can't hit anything, they should have BS1
In movies 2 & 3 they also have a decent flyer and powerful Walker. Their vehicles seem good.
And no, we can not ignore Jedies because they are part of clone army (not technically, but practically yes)
as much as Comissaars are part of IG. Clones have a clear advantage here.
The difference is easily seen and explained. The original Clones suck because they were bad guys. Simple.
BlaxicanX wrote: Mechanicum mentions that asKITARRI ship takes over a day to travel from Earth to Mars.
Which would give it a lazy old average speed of nine million kilometers per hour.
Simple fact is SW ships lack the capability to travel at the speeds necessary to compete with the Imperium.
And that quote shows that that's simply not true. 1. It doesn't state that the ship made the journey in 24 hours- it says "more than a day", meaning it could have been two or even three days. 2. A Star Wars ship wouldn't take that long to reach Mars from Earth, thus implying that the speed gap you keep mentioning isn't as deep as you're trying to assert. The Millenium Falcon traveled from Hoth to Bespin with no hyper-drive in only a couple of days, and that's with the Falcon hiding inside a giant worm for awhile and on the back of Star Destroyer adding time to the trip. Considering that Bespin is two solar systems away from Hoth, that would mean that without using a hyperdrive, the Falcon managed to travel a farrrrrrrrrr faaaaaaaaar greater distance than the ships I mentioned above, and in much less time.
Simply put, you claim that Imperium ships move much faster than Star Wars ships, yet it's never been shown nor stated that it takes SW ships anywhere near a day to travel from a distance such as Earth to Mars, whereas there are several BL sources that imply as much for Imperium ships.
To be honest space travel in both worlds would inherently put each other at disadvantages. SW in 40k would have no clue the mapping of the galaxy and thus would have very slow space travel. 40k in SW wouldn't have warp travel (probably) and thus lose. If they did, then they are slower admittedly they would be on the offensive so it wouldn't matter as much (but SW would be able to respond faster).
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deathgod1990 wrote: To be completely honest 1,200,000 million units has long been debated whether or not it is actually 1 trooper or something more. Judging by the evidence supplied I would go with the ladder considering the number of driod numbered in the quintillions. 1200000 would not be close to accurate. To be honest I would say that clone would win on the basis that
1. They are bred for war
2. I would say more advanced weapons (ex a clone troopers rifle has a range of several kilometers without any adjustments and the fact that the troopers rifle can blow a .5m hole into a solid feracrete wall pretty much is more advanced than guardsmen weapons plus its plasma)
3. They don't need commissars(imperial guardsmen tend to have low morale/ run from battle sometimes)
4. Unlike the Imperial guard the clone can essentially fight in any type of warfare ( that is the usual tatics of the guard tend to revolve around the heavy use of armor formations and siege warfare)
5. Clone are not used as cannon fodder (which occurs with the orders of the Imperial generals)
6 The Imperial guard essentially has a few notable armies (example the death korps, cadians etc) which are good but does not make up the bulk of the imperial guard which results in many armies being essentially worthless or less than efficient compared to those armies (ex the betrayal on caida during the 13th black crusade
1. Yeah gotta agree with you there. IG have some but it is much more variable (DKoK is an example of one that is bred)
2. I wouldn't quite say that. Clone Trooper plasma probably isn't Imperial Guard tier plasma although it might be. That's the problem. We can't really judge. Both seem to have comedically bad armor and pretty sub sttandard guns
3. To be fair IG go against far worse things than Clone Troopers every day
4. I agree with you here! No matter what, IG are forced to struggle more with combined arms methods
5. I'll have to say the movies don't make that convincing (really they are cannon fodder. Clones are treated like sub-human to be tossed around to fight the droids)
6. This isn't really quite fair considering IG really means everything from terribly press ganged to service to super trained
Anyways, as per the victory. I think SW have the advantage in equal number conflicts however when it comes to long scale battles SW just doesn't have enough boots to make it (keep in mind many Imperial planets are heavily deffended from the get-go)
The movies really don't do the clone troopers justice (damn you George Lucas for that) but in the novels and the comic books make it the clones into the force they should be also the themes tend to be darker than the tv/moveis series). Why do you think pretty much everyone hatted the new series. On your last point that what I mean the imperial guard can't be said to be completely composed of cadian, death korps, elysian drop trooper, or jungle fighters. Those only make up a fraction of the Imperial armies pressed into service. And sure there great the cadians are essentially the creme of the crop in terms of what the imperial military should aspire too but you can't say that. As for the imperial lanets being well defended according to everything I've read the planetary defense forces are essentially incompetent at best(unless supplemented by a force like space marines or something along those lines). And I would agree that they would be overrun if the actual number of clones was only 1.2 million. But lets face it it doesn't even come close to that number(meaning alot more than implied).
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kinratha wrote: Holy hell. Alright everyone listen up becasue I'm only going to say this nicely once. 40k beats any; ANY other Sc-Fi army out there.
Proof: Imperial Guard outnumber the Clones 10,000 to 1
You claim they are trained by Mandalorians and are hence Mandalorian. But remember Revan crushed the mandalorians durring the Mandalorian war. He did so with weaker, less trained, lower tech weapons. only advanced thing he imployed was the Shadow mass generator at Malachor V. .
As for training Clones are wana be Mandalorians and Guardsmen training depends on the regiment there in.
Umm you do remember that revan did so a few thousand years before the Clone wars and that afterwards what was left of the mandalorians were reformed under the Clan Ordo right. Also the Clones came into the more advanced Mark 2 armor not the mark 1. Also look up the numbers again because pretty much everyone know that 1.2 million clones is not the right number considering they were facing quintillions of droid right? Plus the fact that you an't use armies from Cadia, Catchan or Kreig as a basis of the Imperial guard. They are essentially a very small number of the acutal guard. In reality a normal guardsmen does not even come close to those armies
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Bobthehero wrote: Yeah, basically, I'll give it to the clones in equal numbers almost any days, but the IG can afford to outnumber the clone a thousand to one and not really care.
Its really a common misconception that the clones only number in 1.2 million. Its actually estimated that they number in the hundreds of billions considering they had to face quintillions of droids
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krazynadechukr wrote: There were 3 million clones made & an equal number of support droids and personnel...
Also consider how quickly the Grand Army expanded. In a single year, at least 1.8 million clone troopers were produced (that is combat ready & all!) -- probably more than that, to account for losses among the original 1.2 million clones.
Also, consider that the Grand Army of the Republic wasn't designed to win a war. The entirety of the Clone Wars is all smoke and mirrors, plotted by Darth Sidious to justify his attempt to take over the Republic. *** In order for the ruse to work, the clones couldn't be too good or too numerous, or they'd be able to take down the Separatists in a fair fight. ***
Now Imperial Stormtroopers actually numbered tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and of stormtroopers.
Its doubtful that it was only millions of clone considering the number disparity that they would be facing (they were facing quintillions if not at least hundred of billions of battle droids) In the very least he Clone troopers were actually numbers in the tens if not hundred of billions
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bonz wrote: Bearing in mind the technological superiority of the Star Wars setting... Surely stating how useless clone armour is when its used to resist the type of advanced laser weaponry in the Star Wars universe is a bit pointless?
Las carbines are mass produced in their billions, and are prone to numerous faults if it even works when you get it. Couple that with some hardwearing fatigues, slap a mass produced cheap flak vest on your average joe conscripted human who probably doesn't even want to be there and you have your average Imperial Guard grunt.
Now take an army of clones who were genetically copied from a galaxy-notorious warrior. They were grown and shaped to be soldiers, are capable of incredible battlefield synergy (they all think fairly similarly I would imagine) and have access to the best armour and equipment which was also commissioned along with the army, and produced in an era where mankind is NOT in the middle of a technological regression comparable to the Dark Ages.
We're all fans of Imperial Guard, and it's no secret that they are the underdogs and win through sheer weight of numbers, but on any given battlefield with no numerical advantage on either side, the Clones will win hands down.
My two cents
I hate how people keep using the movies as the basis for clone trooper armor. Can we all agree that George Lucas was an idiot on these issues and base it on he expanded universe. Also 1.2 million clones isn't even an accurate number ( I mean really in real world the Chinese would have more numbers than clones) there is no way to fight a galactic war with that
Anyway, Clones might have better gear (heh), at least prior to the issue of the E-111 blaster (cost-cutting for goodness!), but the Guard can increase their firing rate by 1.5 by shouting at their guns. :p
Clones from movies 2 & 3 would have a BS of at least three and their gun S should be three as well.
But goddamnit, those retards from the original movies can't hit anything, they should have BS1
In movies 2 & 3 they also have a decent flyer and powerful Walker. Their vehicles seem good.
And no, we can not ignore Jedies because they are part of clone army (not technically, but practically yes)
as much as Comissaars are part of IG. Clones have a clear advantage here.
The difference is easily seen and explained. The original Clones suck because they were bad guys. Simple.
The Storm Troopers of Ep 1-3 are no longer Clones, but humans and near-humans inducted into the Imperial Army. The only remaining clones by that point are the members of the 501st Stormtrooper Legion, "Vader's Fist".
Again, I think the poll is way off. Too many people were putting the guards superior numbers against clones, instead of considering an equally numbered/geared fight.
Regular Guard (not penal or FW units) against clone troops (who are kasrkin quality).... clones win
Kasrkin against clone commandos (who are space marine quality).....clones win
Psyker against Jedi/Sith master....clones win
Leman (tracked & projectile weapon vs gravity clone tank (energy weapon & not hindered by ground).... clones win
Valkyrie (2 door gunners, nose weapon, 2 wing weapons, carries 10 troops) versus clone gunship (2 wing gunners, 2 door gunners, 2 nose weapons, 2 wing weapons, carries 20 troops)....clones win
Imperial knight (gun, chainsword, stubber) versus at-te (big gun).....giving this to GUARD as a win
Sentinals (closed canopy, options for weapons) versus walkers (open topped, 1 weapon)....GUARD win
? versus speeder bikes.....clones win
? versus landespeders.... clones win
Adeptus Mechanicus (attached to guard) versusu Droid/IG-88 (attached to clones).... clones win
Guard training versus clone conditioning, training, bio-engineered to near supermen.... clones win
guard fighter versus clone fighters.... clones win
basilisk versus clone arty (seen in movie).... (unsure)
Grand Army—10 systems armies, a total of over 3,000,000 units, with Supreme Chancellor Palpatine as commander-in-chief.
Systems Army—2 Sector Armies (294,912 troops) led by a High Jedi General.
Sector Army—4 corps (147,456 troops) led by a Senior Jedi General.
Corps—4 legions (36,864 troops) led by a clone marshal commander and a Jedi General.
Legion/Brigade—4 regiments (9,216 troops) led by a senior clone commander and a Jedi General.
Regiment—4 battalions (2,304 troops) led by a clone trooper commander, clone regimental commander, and a Jedi Commander.
Battalion—4 companies (576 troops) led by a major.
Company—4 platoons (144 troops) led by a captain.
Platoon—4 squads (36 troops) led by a lieutenant.
Squad—9 soldiers led by a sergeant.
Command structure of special forces
Special Operations Brigade (SO BDE)—20 groups (10,000 men), commanded by Senior Jedi General Arligan Zey, made up of 10 battalions by one year after the Battle of Geonosis.
Commando Group—5 companies (500 men)
Members of Torrent Company
Company—5 troops (100 men).
Troop—5 squads (20 men).
Squad—4 men.
Wow, ok. beat me too it. and our ideas are pretty similar as well
Going by the movies, the clones just unload everything while firing from the hip (and never hitting), and they just walk forward in formation and stand in front of the enemy while opening fire (actually battles with clone troopers seems a lot like 18th century line infantry, just walk forward, aim, shoot, repeat. They stay in formation, dont take cover, and just trade shots with the enemy until one of them is gone)
Im not sure what kind of numbers that clones have, but imperial guard are billions, if not trillions strong. Im having trouble finding an advantage for the clones, but then again im just using the movies, not the expanded universe. Maybe a few jedi would even out the battle enough, but im not seeing it going well for the "long ago, far away" empire of man.
Clones would have the equivalent of Carapace Armor, given that the ST armor (and everything similar to it from 1960s and 70s sci-fi) is what carapace armor is based on.
Necromancy!
Does no one realise that this thread is really old?
At any rate, Guard win vs Clones by virtue of having much larger numbers and better equipment.
Also, the aiming skills of the Clones are the worst in the entire galaxy and they act like they are fighting a battle in the 18th century. They might've had a chance against Napoleon
...actually, I failed to notice. This thread comes up so often, I just assumed it was its time on the schedule.
they act like they are fighting a battle in the 18th century. They might've had a chance against Napoleon
You know that the Guard often fights using Napoleonic tactics, too, right?
It's actually kind of a defining feature, and required to be using FRFSRF! ... you know, since you'd have to be in infantry ranks for that to be a thing.
Iron_Captain wrote: Necromancy!
Does no one realise that this thread is really old?
At any rate, Guard win vs Clones by virtue of having much larger numbers and better equipment.
Also, the aiming skills of the Clones are the worst in the entire galaxy and they act like they are fighting a battle in the 18th century. They might've had a chance against Napoleon
Flash lights for guns thats what alot of people say about them. They throw like 1000 men before they would even kill a fraction of that. And when have clones had bad aiming. As soon as some of the guard dead start piling up you will see them running
Iron_Captain wrote: Necromancy! Does no one realise that this thread is really old? At any rate, Guard win vs Clones by virtue of having much larger numbers and better equipment. Also, the aiming skills of the Clones are the worst in the entire galaxy and they act like they are fighting a battle in the 18th century. They might've had a chance against Napoleon
Flash lights for guns thats what alot of people say about them. They throw like 1000 men before they would even kill a fraction of that. And when have clones had bad aiming. As soon as some of the guard dead start piling up you will see them running
Only because the Lasgun is weak compared to every other standard infantry weapon in the game. The Lasgun is actually pretty killy background wise - it deals damage similar to that of a .50 rifle, capable of cleanly severing limbs.
I don't recall commenting on this thread before, but reading the last few pages....I guess I have.
anyway I'm still going for Guard. People dismiss the Imperial guards Strength because it gets compared to other 40k factions. In reality, The guard is a great combat force, they keep whats left of the Imperium together.
Iron_Captain wrote: Necromancy!
Does no one realise that this thread is really old?
At any rate, Guard win vs Clones by virtue of having much larger numbers and better equipment.
Also, the aiming skills of the Clones are the worst in the entire galaxy and they act like they are fighting a battle in the 18th century. They might've had a chance against Napoleon
Flash lights for guns thats what alot of people say about them. They throw like 1000 men before they would even kill a fraction of that. And when have clones had bad aiming. As soon as some of the guard dead start piling up you will see them running
Only because the Lasgun is weak compared to every other standard infantry weapon in the game.
The Lasgun is actually pretty killy background wise - it deals damage similar to that of a .50 rifle, capable of cleanly severing limbs.
Yeah the clone troopers rifle the DC-15A blows a .5 metter hole in a Feracrete wall. Also are you saying the other parts of what I said are right?
Clone Troopers. More so if they have their advanced units. Such as Commandos and ARC troopers. IGFlak armor is no more effective tha clone armor. If you compare Clones to IG. Clones are better. Stronger armor and FAR better training. Superior personal weaponry as well. DC-15 blaster Rifles are better that Flashlights. Just watching the clone wars TV show is NOT applicable when discussing clones. The armor is actually a lot tougher than portrayed in the TV series. I'm not going to pretend that IG would be a pushover, but clones would win.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Nope. Just correcting your assertion that the Lasgun is a weak weapon. It really isn't.
The DC-15A blowing holes in ferroconcrete is only on max power. Lasguns can sever limbs with a standard setting.
Even at its high power settings the rifle could average around 300 shots. Also I'm pretty sure that the requirements to sever limbs means that the opponent isn't where armor in the area being fired at.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Nope. Just correcting your assertion that the Lasgun is a weak weapon. It really isn't.
The DC-15A blowing holes in ferroconcrete is only on max power. Lasguns can sever limbs with a standard setting.
Even at its high power settings the rifle could average around 300 shots. Also I'm pretty sure that the requirements to sever limbs means that the opponent isn't where armor in the area being fired at.
300 shots without reloading? Because a blaster rifle battery only lasts 50 shots on standard settings.
The weapon's tibanna gas cartridge carried enough gas for up to 500 shots, depending on the power settings of the weapon, while the charge pack lasted about 50 shots
It has 300 shots worth of gas on high settings, but the gas canister is harder to replace.
Yes, the severed limbs part is against unarmored targets. That's still on standard settings. I have not seen the blaster rifle deal that much damage against an unarmored target in the films.
Logistically speaking, the lasgun is superior. Lighter, smaller, and less demanding in terms of ammunition; each las rifle pack can fire about 150 shots (may vary according to mark) on standard settings, and get easily be recharged at any power source.
Clones for several reasons:
1:they arrive on time to the battle(instead of months late(or early!)like the guard)
2:Since their gun is plasma its is probably around the equivelent of a pulse rifle.
3:They are based of a mandalorian(the cool kind not the duchess satine kind)bounty hunter.and he was the best in the galaxy(until he was killed)
4:They have delta squad.which leads me to..
4a:they have Boss.
4b:they have Sev.
4c:They have scorch.(fixer isn't awesome enough to get 4d.Scorch is just as fast at hacking(and has l33t hax0r skills))
5:Their main battle tank doesn't have Completely flat sides.
6:They don't need to pray to their gun.
7:Morale is higher(not running away is probably in their programming)
8:Their armour actually helps(it has loads of cool features like commlinks(instead of one guy carrying a giant backpack)and covers the whole body.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Nope. Just correcting your assertion that the Lasgun is a weak weapon. It really isn't.
The DC-15A blowing holes in ferroconcrete is only on max power. Lasguns can sever limbs with a standard setting.
Even at its high power settings the rifle could average around 300 shots. Also I'm pretty sure that the requirements to sever limbs means that the opponent isn't where armor in the area being fired at.
300 shots without reloading? Because a blaster rifle battery only lasts 50 shots on standard settings.
The weapon's tibanna gas cartridge carried enough gas for up to 500 shots, depending on the power settings of the weapon, while the charge pack lasted about 50 shots
It has 300 shots worth of gas on high settings, but the gas canister is harder to replace.
Yes, the severed limbs part is against unarmored targets. That's still on standard settings. I have not seen the blaster rifle deal that much damage against an unarmored target in the films.
Logistically speaking, the lasgun is superior. Lighter, smaller, and less demanding in terms of ammunition; each las rifle pack can fire about 150 shots (may vary according to mark) on standard settings, and get easily be recharged at any power source.
well pretty sure its due to the fact that majority of it is rated pg-13 ofr most kids. Its like saying if you made 40kpg-13 do you think we would actually see limbs being chopped off with lasers? Sure maybe againist robots but againist organix life. Also is you are talking about what you've seen during the arena battle on geonosis a dc-15a blew apart a droideka in a nice firey explosion.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Nope. Just correcting your assertion that the Lasgun is a weak weapon. It really isn't.
The DC-15A blowing holes in ferroconcrete is only on max power. Lasguns can sever limbs with a standard setting.
Even at its high power settings the rifle could average around 300 shots. Also I'm pretty sure that the requirements to sever limbs means that the opponent isn't where armor in the area being fired at.
300 shots without reloading? Because a blaster rifle battery only lasts 50 shots on standard settings.
The weapon's tibanna gas cartridge carried enough gas for up to 500 shots, depending on the power settings of the weapon, while the charge pack lasted about 50 shots
It has 300 shots worth of gas on high settings, but the gas canister is harder to replace.
Yes, the severed limbs part is against unarmored targets. That's still on standard settings. I have not seen the blaster rifle deal that much damage against an unarmored target in the films.
Logistically speaking, the lasgun is superior. Lighter, smaller, and less demanding in terms of ammunition; each las rifle pack can fire about 150 shots (may vary according to mark) on standard settings, and get easily be recharged at any power source.
well pretty sure its due to the fact that majority of it is rated pg-13 ofr most kids. Its like saying if you made 40kpg-13 do you think we would actually see limbs being chopped off with lasers? Sure maybe againist robots but againist organix life. Also is you are talking about what you've seen during the arena battle on geonosis a dc-15a blew apart a droideka in a nice firey explosion.
That could be on max. Any information on what the rifle could do on standard settings?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Nope. Just correcting your assertion that the Lasgun is a weak weapon. It really isn't.
The DC-15A blowing holes in ferroconcrete is only on max power. Lasguns can sever limbs with a standard setting.
Even at its high power settings the rifle could average around 300 shots. Also I'm pretty sure that the requirements to sever limbs means that the opponent isn't where armor in the area being fired at.
300 shots without reloading? Because a blaster rifle battery only lasts 50 shots on standard settings.
The weapon's tibanna gas cartridge carried enough gas for up to 500 shots, depending on the power settings of the weapon, while the charge pack lasted about 50 shots
It has 300 shots worth of gas on high settings, but the gas canister is harder to replace.
Yes, the severed limbs part is against unarmored targets. That's still on standard settings. I have not seen the blaster rifle deal that much damage against an unarmored target in the films.
Logistically speaking, the lasgun is superior. Lighter, smaller, and less demanding in terms of ammunition; each las rifle pack can fire about 150 shots (may vary according to mark) on standard settings, and get easily be recharged at any power source.
well pretty sure its due to the fact that majority of it is rated pg-13 ofr most kids. Its like saying if you made 40kpg-13 do you think we would actually see limbs being chopped off with lasers? Sure maybe againist robots but againist organix life. Also is you are talking about what you've seen during the arena battle on geonosis a dc-15a blew apart a droideka in a nice firey explosion.
That could be on max. Any information on what the rifle could do on standard settings?
Unfortunately no I can only guess that standard setting was 500 which I'm guessing is still enough to take out targets like super battle droid and 300-100 shots on high to max settings taking out targets like droid spiders which act like extremely heavy infantry-light vehicles.
First, regarding space travel speeds. Star Wars ships have been shown repeatedly to travel at speeds of at least 1 million times the speed of light. Including travelling halfway across the galaxy in a single day.
Second regarding Storm Trooper accuracy. I understand the running joke that Storm Troopers cannot hit the broad side of the barn, but simply watching the movies proves this to be untrue. First, look at the opening of A New Hope. Here we have a number of storm troopers charging into a narrow breach into heavy fire, yet they are able to gun down more rebel soldiers in cover than they take in casualties. They are so effective that the defenders fall back almost immediately. Next, Obi-Wan's comment regarding the Jawa Sandcrawler - "These blast marks are too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial storm troopers are so precise." Finally we see them make numerous shots, from the hip (which is increddibly difficult). But in the end, who do they miss? The main characters. And more than likely they were under orders to capture them alive.
Third, regarding the strength of their weapons. While we have no idea how strong a lasgun is (19 megathule range means nothing when we cannot convert to current units), we do know that the standard E-11 Blastech is capable of blasting grapefruit size holes out of both Docking Bay 94 (on Tatooine) as well as the interior bulkheads of Bespin, including small pockmarks of the Deaht Star's internal bulkheads. Due to the explosive nature of the shot would explain the Stormtrooper armour, it cannot protect against a direct hit, however against shrapnel and glancing hits, is does quite well. And as a side note, considering hte size of the Sandcrawler, meaning that support beams would have to be massive, and the fact that single weapon bursts had taken out treads, and support beams, then the damage output for Stormtrooper weapons is pretty strong.
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handed to them by even a PDF detachment, because those guys are designed to take bullets, being grown in a few months and trained in one.
