Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.

What people do not realize is the above is not true.

The movies only show the blaster hits that kill people, they do not show the millions of blaster hits that are absorbed by the armor.

a 40K movie would show the same thing. most of the Lasgun hits that were stopped by armor would not be shown onscreen.

It captures the action better to just show the ones that get through.

Because anyone getting shot in the SW movies just drops dead, I dont ever recall seeing a clone trooper shaking of a blaster round and walk on after that. So your argument is not really that strong.

Beside IG has fought and beaten things fare worse than some bunch of cloned criminals

 purplefood wrote:
I've never seen the armour stop a blaster bolt.

They show it Clone Wars several times. Plus, Clone armor is modular, could withstand a vacuum, had air filtration, and it's own oxygen supply. And magnetic boots(for what it's worth).

 purplefood wrote:

Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.

Actually, if you watch the boarding action in Episode 4 (storm troopers vs Rebel crew) and (for some unfathomable reason) pause the fight and go frame by frame, you will see several blaster bolts deflecting off of the stormtrooper's armor. I'm serious. I did it once. Yes, I'm a huge nerd, and no, I don't have a life. The armor works like real modern armor; most pistol shots will bounce off it or be absorbed, but a high-power rifle round will go right through (remember, the Rebels in the opening battle were using pistols, not rifles). In the battles we see in the movies, most everyone involved is using a rifle of some sort, so the shots all go right through. But in that very first battle, the Rebels only drop two stormtoopers, despite filling that corridor with more laser bolts than oxygen. So I'd say that the Clone Trooper armor works reasonably well, or even comparably to flak armor.

I'm not sure where all this "Clone Troopers have underpowered guns" business comes from, though. Their guns kill what they hit, if what they hit is human sized (excepting for specially armored things like those big grey kill bot droids). I'd say they are comparable to a lasgun. We see some of them fire bursts as well, so it's not like the IG have a monopoly on full auto, either. Their vehicles are immune to small arms fire, but heavier weapons do penetrate (kinda like actual vehicles). Their walkers are resistant to heavy weapons, though. The Rebels in Empire were using anti-tank gun emplacements to do absolutely nothing to the AT-ATs. The tow-cable trip attack and meltabombs used in CC were what took down the 2 walkers in Empire, not the heavy weapons of the Rebels. So again, I'd say their armor and air support is comparable.

What ISNT comparable, and what gives the IG the win in absolutely every single battle is the sheer volume of manpower they can throw at a problem. In Attack of the Clowns the Clone Army is numbered at ONE MILLION troops. And that took 10 years to make. The Imperial Guard loses that many men to clerical error in a year, and doesn't even notice the loss. The IG would hit the Clone troops with a force roughly 10 times larger (at minimum) with roughly equivalent gear. That's not a fight the Clones are going to win, even without accounting for terrain (fight em on a jungle planet and send in the Catachans) or the relative skill level and training of the men (the average IG trooper being more highly trained than a vat-job clone).

I love Star Wars, but as always in these fights, the Imperium of Man wins.

Oh, and before you say anything about like "..but flak armor actually works!" I would like you to consider that against a lasgun, flak armor works only 33% of the time. Against a boltgun it works exactly 0% of the time.

 McGibs wrote:
Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).

Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.

Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.

If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.

yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.

Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.

Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

squidhills wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.

Oh, and before you say anything about like "..but flak armor actually works!" I would like you to consider that against a lasgun, flak armor works only 33% of the time. Against a boltgun it works exactly 0% of the time.

No fair using logic!!!

Also I would just roll those gungan balls of death at the guard an it would be all over.

valace2 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).

Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.

Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.

If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.

yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.

Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.

Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.

He never rebutted the claim that jedi leads clone troopers. He's just saying that if we are going to include allied elements in the star wars forces, might as well give the IG some allied forces as well.

No, the clone troopers can't beat the IG hands down. IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

And why bring Astartes into this? There have been no mentioning of Astartes. Well, maybe except in that Space Wolves statement, but that was only in passing.
Are you trying to compare Astartes to Clone Troopers? Because you are sorely mistaken.

And I'm going to take that "finecrap figurines" thing as derogatory, and as such you have lost any chance of being taken seriously.

Can we just kill this thread already? They never end well.

The game math doesn’t compare to expected results in a realistic combat. If it did, then a normal human would have one out of nine chance of killing a fully armored space marine by hitting him with a thrown rock. Power armor gives more than a 66 percent chance of saving against a spork attack in a realist setting, but not during a 40K game.

Youre making fun of me playing with tiny plastic men....

on a 40k forum...

 Grunt13 wrote:
The game math doesn’t compare to expected results in a realistic combat. If it did, then a normal human would have one out of nine chance of killing a fully armored space marine by hitting him with a thrown rock. Power armor gives more than a 66 percent chance of saving against a spork attack in a realist setting, but not during a 40K game.

Not to mention that bolters have a range of approximately 168 feet, plasma weapons have a 1 in 6 chance of self detonating and its completely possible for a IG to survive, completely unscathed, a direct hit from a doomsday cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:
Youre making fun of me playing with tiny plastic men....

on a 40k forum...

As I said, these threads never end well.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Powersword is pretty much the same as a lightsaber, except it has a sword inside it.
In terms of AP, a lightsaber takes a good couple minutes to melt through a blast door (ap3). A power/chainfist rips through bulkheads like butter (ap2).

Why is a jedi master a SQUAD of assassins? That doesnt translate very well... The most choppy guys in the game throw out 5 or 6 attacks max, not... 30 on the charge. Surely Dante or that DE Klaivex guy are comparable to a Jedi master.

Las guns, in the books and rpgs at least, have a power/rate of fire setting. Faster rate of fire, for less powered shots (and less noise and visibility), or higher power for slower supercharged shots (snipers, hot-shot). Also being laser weapons, the jedi would have no way of reacting fast enough to block them (providing lightsabers could deflect lasers).
Blasters are just... garbage weapons.

If the clone troops get jedi, the guardsmen get allied space wolves.
Argument over.

yes yes you win. Because Jedi never actually ever led clone troopers into battle, have to add the Space Wolves and while we are at it give them an Emperor battle Titan.

Now go polish you finecrap figurines lol.

Clone Trooper vs Imperial Guardsman without all of his pretty vehicles and the Clone trooper wins hands down, no matter how bad they make the Imperial Guard out to be. Thats why 100 astartes can kill 10000 guardsman.

He never rebutted the claim that jedi leads clone troopers. He's just saying that if we are going to include allied elements in the star wars forces, might as well give the IG some allied forces as well.

No, the clone troopers can't beat the IG hands down. IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

And why bring Astartes into this? There have been no mentioning of Astartes. Well, maybe except in that Space Wolves statement, but that was only in passing.
Are you trying to compare Astartes to Clone Troopers? Because you are sorely mistaken.

And I'm going to take that "finecrap figurines" thing as derogatory, and as such you have lost any chance of being taken seriously.

Can we just kill this thread already? They never end well.

Why the Finecrap comment? Because his word is law there is no debate Imperial Guard win. Thats why I said after he mentioned bringing Space Wolves in, bringing in a frickin Emperor Battle Titan.

Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.

I was not trying to say that clone troopers can compare to Astartes but Imperial Guard fight on there own a lot of the time, you don't see armies of Jedi running around, Jedi usually lead clone troopers. You don't always see Astartes leading Imp Guard.

You are absolutely right about ending this thread because this is a frikin warhammer site of course the Imperial Guard are going to win, as most of the comments in this thread have pointed out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mega_bassist wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.

He is right about outnumbering them, training is about even, but not about the equipment. You can't compare a frikin Star Trek Phaser to a frikin Star Wars Blaster there is absolutely no way to actually compare the two.

 mega_bassist wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.

Not really. I always saw a Clone Trooper as a mandalorian knock off. I mean Jango Fett is an absolute beast compared to your average Clone.
Granted, the Clone Troopers are probably more disciplined than the IG though.

 McGibs wrote:
Youre making fun of me playing with tiny plastic men....

on a 40k forum...

Yes, yes I am. I am also partaking in a debate on which fictional character will beat which fictional character. My comment was aimed at the fact that in your posts there is no debate, clone troopers will die horribly to the all mighty invincible Imperial Guard.

Wanna talk about who would win between Thor and Superman?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 mega_bassist wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
IG out number, out train and out equip the Clones.

I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.

Not really. I always saw a Clone Trooper as a mandalorian knock off. I mean Jango Fett is an absolute beast compared to your average Clone.
Granted, the Clone Troopers are probably more disciplined than the IG though.

Ya just gotta love how both Jango an Boba bought the farm though.

valace2 wrote:


Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.

Well, to be fair, the Jedi were basically butchered by the clones. And since clones are probably en-par with with the IG...yeah, a Guardsman could kill one.
Ok, not a Guardsman...more like a crap ton of them. Which you will always find.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

valace2 wrote:


Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one.

Well, to be fair, the Jedi were basically butchered by the clones. And since clones are probably en-par with with the IG...yeah, a Guardsman could kill one.
Ok, not a Guardsman...more like a crap ton of them. Which you will always find.

There ya go a crap ton of them, not a silly cadian with a "full auto" lasgun.

 McGibs wrote:
Clone Trooper:
WS2, BS2, S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD10 Sv6+

Blaster:
S2, AP-, Assault 3, 12"

Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.

Also specialists? Clones have Commandos, jetpack troopers, man portable mortar, laser gatling gun etc etc.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Clone Trooper:
WS2, BS2, S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD10 Sv6+

Blaster:
S2, AP-, Assault 3, 12"

Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.

Also specialists? Clones have Commandos, jetpack troopers, man portable mortar, laser gatling gun etc etc.

That was what kinda set me off as well, with those stats a Tau Firewarrior can hand a Clone Warrior his ass.

Reasons why Clones would lose:

-Raised upon one world. One.

-Raised with one geneotype, and severely vulnerable to biological attack. The guard would immediately take advantage of this.

-Their fleet can only make the jump to lightspeed. The guard can bend flakkin time and space by traveling in the warp.

Reasons why the Clones would kill guardsmen before they are exterminated:

"The best soldiers of the Galaxy"

A galaxy in a place far far away a long long time ago - Not the Imperium of our own milky way. Not even counting the famous forces of only 8 planets : Cadia, Krieg, Catachan, Armageddon, Vostroya, Elysia, Valhalla, and Tallaran - their grenadiers / home brew elites are the equivalent of any Clone in both skills and equipment.

Then there are the Stormtroopers raised from the elites of millions of other worlds.

Bottom line, 40k has plenty of homage to pay to Star Wars, but the Imperium would utterly annihilate the Empire like operation Desert Storm. Palpatine wouldn't even know who was invading him by the time the Hammer of the Emperor put his skull against an anvil.

Also, the Gunship has 2 bubble turrets which fire a constant beam, 2 small laser turrets and 2 torpedoes launchers.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Clone Trooper:
WS2, BS2, S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD10 Sv6+

Blaster:
S2, AP-, Assault 3, 12"

Whoa whoa whoa what? That's bull imo. Their big rifles are pretty nasty, you them taking out SBD's and Droideka in one blow and whatnot, should be at the very least str 3.

Totally agree. They're Mandalore trained too! I think it should be

Clone Trooper:
WS3 BS3(possibly 4) S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD10 Sv5+

Blaster:
S3, AP5, Assault 2, 18"

They have a high level of training, armor designed to go up against lasers, and blasters that can chew through hardened battle droids. Seems legit to me.

Harker could wipe a couple battalions of clone troopers single handedly. Marbo could probably infiltrate the death star, set it to self destruct and steal a shuttle off. Chenkov would just send overwhelming numbers. AT-ATs dont seem to have the heavy weaponry of a Titan. There doesn't seem to be anything clones could do about IG super heavies. I would like to see an Eversor vs Jedi battle.

I vote clones just cause the ARC troopers with the heavy weapons and minguns mmmm
But realistically, guard

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Marbo could probably infiltrate the death star, set it to self destruct and steal a shuttle off.

Considering an old man, farm boy, pirate, princess, and walking carpet were able to do it, I'd hope so.

Holy hell. Alright everyone listen up becasue I'm only going to say this nicely once. 40k beats any; ANY other Sc-Fi army out there.

Proof: Imperial Guard outnumber the Clones 10,000 to 1
You claim they are trained by Mandalorians and are hence Mandalorian. But remember Revan crushed the mandalorians durring the Mandalorian war. He did so with weaker, less trained, lower tech weapons. only advanced thing he imployed was the Shadow mass generator at Malachor V. .

DC-15 vs lasgun
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DC-15A_blaster_rifle
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun

Mrk 1 phase armor vs Flakk armor
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase_I_clone_trooper_armo
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flak_armour
(Granted they say flak armor is bad, there comparing it to other armors in 40k not star wars)

As for training Clones are wana be Mandalorians and Guardsmen training depends on the regiment there in.

I'm sorry, I still think comparing Lasguns and Blasters is kinda silly. It's like comparing an AKs and M16s...BOTH WILL KILL YOU

 mega_bassist wrote:
I'm sorry, I still think comparing Lasguns and Blasters is kinda silly. It's like comparing an AKs and M16s...BOTH WILL KILL YOU

Spoken true.

Oh for the love of...look, to whoever mentioned Titans, Space Wolves/Astartes, or warp travel, please do not involve them. This is about the Imperial Guard only - aircraft and transports, but no starships/Titans/Astartes.

 kinratha wrote:

DC-15 vs lasgun
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DC-15A_blaster_rifle
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun

''Mounted on a tripod, the maximum effective range of a DC-15A was 10 kilometers'' Yeah that outrange quite a lot of the IG weapon.

I remember reading about clone/storm trooper armour once. It was hilarious. All this technical stuff about how good it is and all that.

The main issue is equipment. Lasguns are better than blasters, flak armour is better than whatever clones have. Yes, clones might be better-trained - but training doesn't matter when you're dead.

"Jedi train there entire lives to fight in hand to hand combat with extremely powerful weapons and people are trying to say that a Guardsman with a lasgun can kill one. "

Not in close combat. A Tyranid Warrior is an enormous (maybe about 15ft tall, judging by the model) scary death machine that can tear a man in half with no difficulty. It can also be killed in one round of shooting by two Guardsmen, despite its Space Marine-level armour.

A monk who has trained his entire life to be unbeatable in close combat still dies when he's shot in the head with a pistol. A Jedi can't block lasers, and even if they could, they couldn't block that many lasers, even disregarding the 'full auto' thing.

With their armour off and their weapons removed, one-on-one, a Trooper would undoubtedly win. They are supersoldiers of a kind, after all, and Guardsmen are semi-trained normal humans. It's just that the matchup between equipment (and army size, obviously) is so poor.

Silly thread is silly!

I still say being able to fire a few kilometers away with your main rifle is a pretty good advantage, and they can punch through 50 cm of ''Ferroconcrete'' which is used in bunkers, make that of what you will, but I am fairly sure that could punch through flak armor.

That sounds rather impressive. I get the feeling that the person(s) who wrote the technical stats for this equipment wasn't consulted or paid any heed to when the scenes were written.

It's true that Stormtroopers were widely feared, and they did take over a whole lot of everything. We can assume that their armour is up to a standard using their own weaponry as a reference, then.

There is the fact that 'troopers can't hit anything. But then again, they are subject to infinitely more Plot Power than the Guard. The Guard seem to actually give Plot Power to their foes.