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Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
A clone trooper could take a guardsman 1-on-1, but the entire GAR is a million men. The Imperial Guard triple that number in deployment on a daily basis.
Also, most GAR guns would have a lot of trouble piercing LRBT armor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 00:49:48
289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
(no games played so far)
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)
scarletsquig wrote: The high prices also make the game more cinematic, just like going to the cinema!
Regiment: 91st Schrott Experimental Regiment
Regiment Planet: Schrott Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units. "SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.
Ok, unfortunately a lot of posts are referencing the movies, an I just gotta say... THEY LOST! You couldn't have them be all bad ass because they were meant to lose.
How can you say with utmost certainty that a lasgun is better than a blaster? hmmm how do you know?
Also I think we need to take the oh they will be overwhelmed by millions upon millions of troops. There is no science fiction setting that can hold a candle to the sheer scope of Warhammer 40K.
We need to look at an individual battle say 10000 guardsman vs 10000 clones. If the Guard take any subhumans then the Clones get Jedi/Sith.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DOOMBREAD wrote: A clone trooper could take a guardsman 1-on-1, but the entire GAR is a million men. The Imperial Guard triple that number in deployment on a daily basis.
Also, most GAR guns would have a lot of trouble piercing LRBT armor.
The AT-AT's main guns which I would compare to maybe a couple of TL lascannons could pierce a Russ. The AT-ST is an oversized sentinel with maybe a TL Lascannon on it, so yes they could hurt a Russ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 01:06:11
going by the accuracy of the clones, and the fact that their armor can't stop one laser, i would give it to the imperial guard. but clones have emp grenades that can stop all the guards nice things from working so the flyers crash, and tanks become a real nice target.
This is stupid... They at best equal each other the guard has more peeps, that doesnt stop the Tau or any random Ork warboss from taking over a big chunk of terroity. I see the clones being a major pain in the side of the imperium but eventually due to the sheer size of the EoM they would be crushed. And im sorry i know it was said that space ships were out but seriously? The main line cruisers during the clone wars is smaller than the smallest IN destroyer, Nuff said.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.
I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
King Pariah wrote: I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
IG of what regiment? Each regiment is trained to different standards and equipped to different standards.
Well if you demand a regiment then I'll go ahead and say all/the posterchild of IG.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I have to disagree. The basic Clone Trooper is more-or-less a Mandalorian, and those guys were trained EXREMELY well. So, I'd have to say your basic Clone is better trained than a basic Guardsman for sure.
Better than say a Cadian or a Catachan? If we are bringing the best line infantry that the clone troopers can bring we should bring the best line infantry the Imperial Guard can bring. If someone brings in ARC troopers, the Imperial Guard should be allowed to bring in Storm Troopers. If the clones get jedi the IG can get Grey Knight allies.
King Pariah wrote: I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
IG of what regiment? Each regiment is trained to different standards and equipped to different standards.
Well if you demand a regiment then I'll go ahead and say all/the posterchild of IG.
Which would be Cadians. Which are one of the highest trained IG regiments, especially with ranged weapons (well, fluffwise, as tabletop stats are heavily abstracted).
You want to compare Clones, that can't hit the broad side of a barn to one of the best trained fighting forces in the Imperium and highest trained at ranged warfare outside of the Astartes? In a conflict that is going to be based on ranged warfare?
Once you start comparing them to things like Commandos, you need to start bringing in Kasrkin or Stormtroops, or other similarly trained Guardsmen. Clones aren't comparing favorably.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 02:57:49
King Pariah wrote: I'd say on an individual basis the clone trooper beats out IG, but as Stalin said, "quantity has a quality all its own."
IG of what regiment? Each regiment is trained to different standards and equipped to different standards.
Well if you demand a regiment then I'll go ahead and say all/the posterchild of IG.
Which would be Cadians. Which are one of the highest trained IG regiments, especially with ranged weapons (well, fluffwise, as tabletop stats are heavily abstracted).
You want to compare Clones, that can't hit the broad side of a barn to one of the best trained fighting forces in the Imperium and highest trained at ranged warfare outside of the Astartes? In a conflict that is going to be based on ranged warfare?
Once you start comparing them to things like Commandos, you need to start bringing in Kasrkin or Stormtroops, or other similarly trained Guardsmen. Clones aren't comparing favorably.
Meh, just my opinion.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
OP mentionned specialists, so I am assuming there are IG Stormies and Clone Commandos, which both compare very well, imo, Stormies win on raw ranged damage while the Commando win on flexibility and better defensive gear.
The imperial ones are referred to as storm troopers.
I know the Imperial ones are "Storm Troopers"
But peoples accounts of what the in question troopers have seems to be a strange mix of Republic Clone Troopers and Imperial Storm Troopers (Star Wars).
Republic troopers have walkers but they are not "titan sized" the primary one is possibly a bit larger then a large heavy tank and its used for infantry support. they don't get any bigger then that. the Imperial Storm Troopers have the At-At but thats a Shock Troop transport/heavy assault transport which is "titan sized".
So please.
What kind. Imperial Storm Troopers or Republic Clone Troopers?
and once again. I belive the IG would steam roll either. heavy armor, training, and effective (reletive) infantry armor wins. Not to mention numbers.
Oh and I have to put this in...
Guardsmen Flak armor on the other hand would deflect a stone arrow.... unless it hit an un armored area of course...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 03:23:07
Regiment: 91st Schrott Experimental Regiment
Regiment Planet: Schrott Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units. "SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.
Bobthehero wrote: OP mentionned specialists, so I am assuming there are IG Stormies and Clone Commandos, which both compare very well, imo, Stormies win on raw ranged damage while the Commando win on flexibility and better defensive gear.
I'm actually not so sure on either of those. Storm Troopers are armoured in carapace armour, the best armour anyone who doesn't have relations with the Mechanicus, Inquisition or Ecclisiarchy can get, which is capable of stopping bolter fire, both on the table top, and in most fluff. As for the tactical niche, storm troopers are expected to fulfill pretty much every role that would require some form of "elite" troops. They are capable of spearheading a conventional offensive, jumping behind enemy lines in grav chutes and messing things up for them, or flying in in valkyries, destroying a target, and evacuating. Granted, it may lead to the storm troopers to suffer from a jack of all trades, master of none compared to ARC troopers and commandos. In the end I might give the storm troopers the edge, if only due to equipment (the HSLG is the real game changer).
Commando's do all the things you mentionned plus: they have small bacta medic kit, they have energy shield, their weapon can be changed from a conventionnal rifle to either a sniper rifle or an anti-tank weapon, on the fly.
I said Clone Troopers, so can be either. Same with the Guard, just go with whichever regiments fits...I'm going with Death Korps of Krieg burying the Clones.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: The clones are poorly trained (They where marching in formation while in combat) with poor armor (can't stop a direct blaster hit) and have weapons slightly inferior to the Lasgun. They lack heavy armor that the IG have, the battle clearly favors the Imperial Guard. Hands down the clones lose, hard.
Though the Guard would indeed win, that isn't entirely true. Their armor can stop direct blaster hits (as someone else said, the movies only show kill hits) and blasters are about as good as Lasguns.
289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
(no games played so far)
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)
scarletsquig wrote: The high prices also make the game more cinematic, just like going to the cinema!
Bobthehero wrote: On equal numbers, meh, their blaster being able to fire a few kilometers away sure helps a whole bunch, especially agaisnt the DKoK static positions.
Well, that's what artillery is for.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Quote: ''The primary disadvantage of this powerful weapon was that it was incapable of providing indirect fire support to out of sight locations, a problem remedied in other models.''
Edit: Those things where used as a ship to ship weapon,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 03:37:12
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 03:50:51
Marbo, Iron-hand and Harker..... Commandos gunna be out-commandoed
Kilkrazy wrote: We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
kestril wrote: Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
I'd say Guard would win, but not an all out crushing victory.
IMO its a bit hard to make a clear picture. Star Wars for me perhaps holds to a more 'realistic' viewpoint or a set with their weapons in film, games, etc, as opposed to 40k which really doesn't. Star Wars weapons in all their showings are set up like, it does this and that is what it does. 40k states it does this, but then it can do this and the variations of the abilities of both the people in 40k and the weapons vary in such a wild way its not funny. 40k has what, 3, characters who "single-handedly" held off a Tyranid Hive fleet. A Space Marine, an Eldar and a Tau, as opposed to say Star Wars biggest claim, The Emperor could use the force to create storms that could destroy a fleet from X distance away.
The 40k tabletop sets X weapon at Y amount, a FFG or Inquisitor version of the game could be set to a similar area, or be different. The fluff could hold that a Space Marine can survive all of a Guard Unit firing at him at the same time, but a different author would have that marine cut down. A bolter in a book could fling a guardsman off his feet, be too heavy to lift, etc. But in X spot is is set to be this, in Y book its set to be that. Star Wars tends to just set it to one level, and leave it there. Over the films, books, video games, etc they tend to just be at that one level. 40k doesn't stick to the same setting of it being at one level. It depends on other factors like the author or the game, etc.
1000 Original Clone Troopers vs 1000 Guard, with stock standard weapons could wield a result like 250 Clone Troopers dead to the full 1000 Guard. But then there are factors which change it, where are the guards from that make up the force? A Catachan force would live longer in the Jungle compared to say a Guard Squad who have never been in a jungle before. How many battles have they seen, etc, etc.
If both sides were to be put at a set level, with their weapons and everything decided at set levels then it would be easier to do a comparison between the 2.
I also think that the Jedi dying in the purge is hard to put in context, were they just easy to kill or if you were to take into thought say Yoda feeling it happening, then I could imagine if hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who are connected to the Force are all suddenly dying at a singular time then the disturbance felt via the Force would be great, Yoda was a Grand master, with centuries of experience. Maybe he could act like he did due to that training, but other Jedi who lack it would be affected by it so their reactions would be slower, if not completely voided by the disturbance making them affectively cripples. A 40k Librarian would perhaps suffer the same affect should he suddenly have his powers turned off via a blank/sister of silence or if he was suddenly put under a massive mental/psychic assault. Tigurius would undoubtedly do better in that situation than say a new Librarian, and he would be far far better than an Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psyker.
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
40k wins.
If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Bobthehero wrote: Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.
There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.
We're including Navy now?
Spoiler:
40k wins.
If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?
Quite true that battleships are rare. Cruisers, which are only about 1/3 - 1/2 smaller, are quite more common. And looking at the size of a regular star destroyer to a simply Imperial Escort ship... yeah.
The important thing to remember about 40k is it's meant to compare this way to other sci fi settings. it's sci fi cranked up to 20. Everything is extreme, over the top, and designed to simply be badass.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 04:40:27
289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
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Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)
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