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 -Loki- wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.

There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.

We're including Navy now?



40k wins.

I said PLANETARY forces.
Also, the super star destroyer is 4x bigger than that big green ship

also it doesnt have the death star, and there are bigger imperium ships than that, which fire small stars that supernova upon impact.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I said PLANETARY forces.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons?

Sorry, I misread ship as spaceship. Unless you did mean spaceship, which which case Guard get ship based support.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Also, the super star destroyer is 4x bigger than that big green ship

And yet that ship can fire multiple different weapons that could destroy it in one hit.

 Trondheim wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

Guard flak armour works.
Clone armour does not.
Guard wins.

What people do not realize is the above is not true.

The movies only show the blaster shots that kill people, they do not show the millions of blaster hits that are absorbed by the armor.

a 40K movie would show the same thing. most of the Lasgun hits that were stopped by armor would not be shown onscreen.

It captures the action better to just show the ones that get through.

Because anyone getting shot in the SW movies just drops dead, I dont ever recall seeing a clone trooper shaking of a blaster round and walk on after that.

Because they usually do not show the times that the clone troopers are hit, yet do not die. It is all about the Mise on scene in films. That is why you hardly ever see a shot that is absorbed by the armor.

The point being that It is more cinematic to show the Kill shot on 100 people than 3 kill shots and 97 non-kill shots on 3 people.

valace2 wrote:

Ya just gotta love how...Boba bought the farm though.

To what are you referring?

I don't get why a flak armor should be so much more resistant as the Clone Trooper one.
In the movie we did not see any trooper or any droid taking more than one shot, because those were action scenes imo.

If you guys had the chance to watch Ultramarines, you will notice that Chaos Space Marines are OS by Bolter shots every time, even with their 3+ save vs AP5 weap

Pro IG: number, autonomy
Pro CT: intensive training in cloning facility
In terms of personal gear, I think they are quite the same.

Talking about vehicles, I agree with the fact that CT vehicles doesn't look very resistant to anything else than lasers.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I said PLANETARY forces.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons?

Sorry, I misread ship as spaceship. Unless you did mean spaceship, which which case Guard get ship based support.

.

Should have said ship-class or something, the walker artillery thing has a weapon that is also mounted on starships.

^ Actually no, if you really want to get into this the Star Wars ships win each and everytime as the imperial ships are (comparatively) hugely undergunned for size. That Star Destroyer that is below the Imperial battleship would in all likeliness be able to not only destroy that battleship, but all of its battlegroup as well and possibly doing so without suffering a hit or damage.

If you want the reasoning I can give it to you, but pretty much the reason that Star Wars navies beat 40k navies into the ground is that Star Wars actually has fluff measured in modern day units. So I can tell you exactly the amount of damage one shipborne turbolaser is capable of producing, (7,73 × 10^24 W/s, that's 1 400 000 000 times more energy than was released by the Tsara Bomba which essentially means one hit and your ship is toast, and that Star Destroyer has 69 of them.) as well as its effective range, manufacturer and make. The 40k fluff simply doesn't have this, and the only way to compare is from fluff extrapolations, which are so ridiculously underpowered in comparison so as to make the thought of the Imperial Empire being defeated at the hands of the Empire of Man absolutely laughable at best.

On the ground it's pretty much the same thing, the Clone Troopers could simply set up an area shield using a small starship class powerplant and continue to laugh as the guard pores all of the artillery and firepower they can possibly even get into physical range of it. Likewise their anti air power is uttercrap in comparison, a hydra flak tank, hell even an icarus lascannon doesn't nearly put out even a tenth of a percent of what is needed to knock out a starfighters shield, let alone a planet class shield system.

The absolutely only thing the Imperial Guard have going for them is their Psykers and manpower. Thats it, all of their equipment is utterly outclassed by star wars tech. The clone commandos energy shield would allow him to calmly walk right up to a Guardsmen who had been shooting him at full auto with his lasgun and punch him in the face with his guantlets vibro blade.

TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.

 Ratbarf wrote:
TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.

If you're going that route, it doesn't mean the Star Wars stuff wins, it simply means they're not comparable due to a lack of data. Which means any discussion might as well not happen.

So you help convince that Star Wars wins, you just killed the thread instead.

That was my intention. Also did you just read the TL;DR? Cause if you did you missed the tech and comparison reason as to why Star Wars tech destroys 40k tech.

If we are comparing the entire Imperial Guard fighting force then the Guard will most likely outnumber the clones by several thousand to 1. Unless they can hit and kill let's say 10,000 each, guard win. Any armour the clones can field will also be ridiculously outnumbered by the sheer weight of armour the Guard can bring to bear. In reference to the Self Propelled Heavy Artillery it said that it couldn't hit anything it couldn't see. Manticores, Deathstikes, Basilisks and Colossi can hit targets they can't see. And the Dropships have got to get past all the Hydras, quadguns and Icarus Lascannons first. Then all the Vendetta's, Valkyries and Vultures that'll be roaming the skies.

 Ratbarf wrote:
^ Actually no, if you really want to get into this the Star Wars ships win each and everytime as the imperial ships are (comparatively) hugely undergunned for size. That Star Destroyer that is below the Imperial battleship would in all likeliness be able to not only destroy that battleship, but all of its battlegroup as well and possibly doing so without suffering a hit or damage.

You do realize a single lance can level a large part of a city, right? And 40k torpedoes are not only more versatile, but also more powerful, seeing as a single torpedo pretty much crippled a Battleship from a Gaunt's Ghosts novel.

On the ground it's pretty much the same thing, the Clone Troopers could simply set up an area shield using a small starship class powerplant and continue to laugh as the guard pores all of the artillery and firepower they can possibly even get into physical range of it. Likewise their anti air power is uttercrap in comparison, a hydra flak tank, hell even an icarus lascannon doesn't nearly put out even a tenth of a percent of what is needed to knock out a starfighters shield, let alone a planet class shield system.

You underestimate the power of artillery and numbers...

The clone commandos energy shield would allow him to calmly walk right up to a Guardsmen who had been shooting him at full auto with his lasgun and punch him in the face with his guantlets vibro blade.

And get vaporized by a melta blast.

TL;DR, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy would both be swatted away like flies by the tech of the Star Wars universe. Which can actually be measured whereas all of the imperial tech is just conjecture.

Not really...just by looking at their descriptions, even without measuring it, 40k technology is simply overwhelming - there's no point in measuring it, because its that powerful.

 Ratbarf wrote:
That was my intention. Also did you just read the TL;DR? Cause if you did you missed the tech and comparison reason as to why Star Wars tech destroys 40k tech.

Just because you can quote numbers from fictional tech specs doesn't prove technological superiority. you can;t mathematically judge the efficiency of Star Wars technology based on a set of numbers that lets be fair, the writer of said tech specs snatched out of thin air. Lets be fair to accomplish enough power to run the weapons plus, say the ships reversing lights, would take a reactor with enough fissionable materials to have to tow a small sun behind it.

Without relying on somewhat suspect tech specs your comparison is relegated to comparing the respective technologies in action, the empire took decades to build a massive space station capable of destroying a planet, The IoM's chosen method of comparable destruction being a single cyclonic torpedo which can be carried by a naval escort is needs be. the scope of a Jedis power (Just to address that in advance) ranges to between negligible and laughable when compared to even a sanctioned imperial psyker. As for standard infantry actions.

IG have at least comparable training to Clone Troopers, to even become a guardsmen you normally have to serve time as a conscript or have training on your home world.
Weaponry wise, blasters and las weapons are fairly comparably crap.
As already stated, IG flak armour stands a lot better then Clone Trooper foil wrap
The average IG regiment has a FAR larger access to Air and mechanized support
Logistically IG fair far better over long campaigns, Clone troopers are generally deployed for rapid actions, IG Las weaponry is easy to recharge, their vehicles are fairly easy to repair
IG has far greater redundancy in both its technology and tactics


Don't even get me started on if the the IG were backed up by even a single squad of astartes.

I mean its fairly permissible that a single marine squad could hijack the death star.

Why don't we just ask George Lucas?

Marbo already blew up the deathstar on his lunch break.

I lol everytime a Star Wars fanboy tries to claim a ISD can trounce any 40k ship. You have "proof" (i just loled again) that your ships are uber powerful beyond their size and yet your stations are destroyed by a torpedo that wouldnt even register on the same scale as a 40k ship and lets not forget your vaunted SSD was destroyed largely due to an out of control one man fighter craft, that also would not register on this scale. The simple fact of the mattet is that there is nothing in the fluff for 40k to extrapolate an accurate measurement of what the ships are capable of without a lot of guess work. From the starwars fluff we can safely assume that the ISDs are not all that.

TheCustomLime wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Agaisnt... ship mounted weapons? There's also the possibilty of sending Commandos to mess with the arty, which in the IG case is quite squishy, while the DKoK have to go the underground way, and still have to deal with the heavy armor and the 30 clone troopers carried by the big walker.

There is also the whole question regarding air support, I am assuming ther gunships are attached to ground forces, unlike the IG where its the navy toy, might want to allow at least planetary Navy unit to deal with that.

We're including Navy now?



40k wins.

If I'm not mistaken, those huge battleships are supposed to be rare as hen's teeth. But... even a IN ship of comparable tonnage to a Venator/Imperial I will vastly outgun it. I'd say this is an undeniable victory to the Imperium. Then again, the Imperium beats most if not all other Sci Fi militaries. The question is ...how long they would last?

We need a Borg cube on there.

Assault Ram, Star Destroyer, crew wiped out. Rinse, repeat.

All clones are copies of Jango Fett, who was played by Temuera Morrison, who played Jake the Muss in the movie "Once Were Warriors"

Needless to say if things get into hand to hand combat the Clones are gonna wipe the floor with guard, Ogryns or no.

Guard have Marbo aka John Rambo/Rocky Balboa. Problem?

MarsNZ wrote:
All clones are copies of Jango Fett, who was played by Temuera Morrison, who played Jake the Muss in the movie "Once Were Warriors"

Needless to say if things get into hand to hand combat the Clones are gonna wipe the floor with guard, Ogryns or no.

Jango's unaltered clone got his ass accidentally kicked by a blind man. I have no faith in the dumbed down versions.

You can define an army standart by its opposition can you?

What do clones go up against?
IG regularly go against 'nids, countless hordes of super-tough orks, unstoppable iron-hard 'crons, crazy AND armoured Khorne berzerkers and all other flavours of CSM...

IG is from a grimdark future, not a space opera.

My bet's on IG every day of the week.

Maybe the OP should make this into a Poll? From what I'm reading it's pretty close call if the forces were on even ground. If it's not a 50/50 vote, I'd say it's 60/40 IoM winning

EDIT: I still think the Republic would win on even terms, however.

You cant simply pit two armies against each other, because even if the unthinkable happened and the Empire beat IG, the Imperium would simply throw another few million Guard at them, or Emperor forbid....throw Astartes at them. And we all know how that one ends.

Lets not forget that the IG has access to thing like the Bane Blade and Shadowsword.

SW Troopers have nothing comparable to these, let alone able to do much more than scratch the paint work.

Jedi mind tricks are unlikely to work on a Commissar, and the Commissar has an answer to Jedi tricks known as "BLAM!"

While Star Wars Imperial/Republic STs may have some more advanced weapons, they don't seem to have the overwhelming fire power that the Imperial Guard bring as standard.

IG win on fire power alone, their numbers are just a bonus.

 Tadashi wrote:
I got into an argument on whether the Imperial Guard could win against Clone Troopers. This would involve only Guard infantry, their vehicles and aircraft. The same goes for the Clone Troopers, which may or may not be led by Jedi. No spacecraft or starships, or other specialist forces (Astartes, Sisters, Titans, etc.) but the Guard can deploy their own specialists (Sanctioned Psykers and such).

Note the third and last line. Thus Jedi are in. The Jedi led the Clone troops and there were a metric-F-ton of them at the time. Additionally you could assume a different flavor of Clone army with the Sith at the lead. Let’s run through a couple of points that jumped out at me during the discussion and would, to my mind, tip the balance:

1. Break down what the Clones are supposed to be about and you get something much more Elite. The basic Clone Trooper would have WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 4, I 4, A 1, LD 9, Sv 4+ (see point 3 below). Additionally they would all be Fearless and would have access to all the same battle tactics as Guard.

2. The Clone vehicles are not all Titan class but are also, as all Star Wars universe vehicles, not subject to any handheld weaponry. Chainfists may be an exception to the rule but how many chainfists do Guard have access to?

3. Blasters are not lasers but more effectively plasma weapons. So a better comparison of the armor they wear is to think about everyone wielding plasma weapons and not laspistols.

4. Flak armor always confused me. Flak is shrapnel or some other physical object hurling at high speeds. So why would they provide any real protection at all in the grim darkness of the far future?

5. Lasers do not matter to Jedi; they do not track the laser as it travels but rather the actions of the future through the force. Their stats are more like WS 6, BS 3, S 4, T 4, I 7, A 3, LD 10, Sv 6+ with Fearless and Fleet, 3+ InvSv as they always wield Lightsabers. Lightsabers would be R -, S User, AP 3, Armourbane, Instant Death and Specialist. They could lead troops or work in small squads themselves. This brings up some interesting opportunities for Psyker tactics on the battlefield. How would psykers interact with the force wielders?

Do these sound like semi-reasonable stats for a Clone Army? They would have lots of vehicles. Using this as a base the only factor that would save the Guard are, in fact, their overwhelming numbers. The Star Wars universe was much more sparsely populated in comparison. I kinda wanna play this army now… Has anyone done a conversion? Any thoughts on the above?

I also loved the naval comparison above which neglected to include a Super Star Destroyer for a real comparison While the Death Star would be more comparable to the Fortresses of the Astartes.

 purplkrush wrote:
4. Flak armor always confused me. Flak is shrapnel or some other physical object hurling at high speeds. So why would they provide any real protection at all in the grim darkness of the far future.

I've always thought the same thing. I figured IG flak armor was little more than future kevlar.

EDIT - spelling.

 purplkrush wrote:


5. Lasers do not matter to Jedi; they do not track the laser as it travels but rather the actions of the future through the force. Their stats are more like WS 6, BS 3, S 4, T 4, I 7, A 3, LD 10, Sv 6+ with Fearless and Fleet, 3+ InvSv as they always wield Lightsabers. Lightsabers would be R -, S User, AP 3, Armourbane, Instant Death and Specialist. They could lead troops or work in small squads themselves. This brings up some interesting opportunities for Psyker tactics on the battlefield. How would psykers interact with the force wielders?

Yeah, those rules are a bit ridiculous

Let's break it down:

WS6: Ok, that's fine
BS3: ditto
S4: hell no! That would make them as strong (or nearly as strong) as a SM. There is nothing in the movie to show that. Should be S3
T4 : Ditto. If a jedi can be killed by a stray blaster bolt, then they don't deserve T4. Should be S3
I7: That makes them as fast as Drazar. A Dark Eldar who excels at Close Combat. Dark Eldar are also naturally fast reacting. It should be more like I5 (or I6 for a master. Like, I dunno, Yoda or something)
6+ save : They wear robes. 6+ is for scraps of metal (like orks) or Chitin (Termagants). Should be -
3+ invul: More like a 4+...but much like the ini it really depends on the Jedi. And there are some things a lightsaber couldn't deflect. I doubt it could block melta or flames.
A3: No argument there.
Ld10: Eh, good enough

Fearless: Nope. There is nothing to show them as being fearless. That implies they never run away, when in fact they do retreat when the odds are against them. Now stubborn would be a more accurate representation.
Stubborn shows them as being hard to break and being well trained, but not to the point of stupidity.

Fleet: Eh, fine I guess.

Lightsaber: Oh boy, is this OP or what?

S User is fine.
AP3 is ok.
But Armor bane? If it can't cut through a security door (see, phantom menace), then it can't have armor bane. Just...no.
And Instant death? Really?! That means that it can 1 shot a hive tyrant or a tervigon. A friggen monster that is the size of a tank. Again, no.
Specialist makes sense.

purplkrush wrote:
Do these sound like semi-reasonable stats for a Clone Army?

No, your stats and abilities are way off, your rules don’t match their performance in the movies or literature. The storm troopers and jedi are humans or close enough in the case of the jedi. Their stats wouldn’t exceed those depicted for unmodified humans in the existing 40K codices. A bullet or energy blast kills the jedi same as everyone else. A jedi is a normal well-trained human (or alien) with some relatively minor abilities (like a low level battle mage) and in the extended universe they are not gods of war that are impossible to beat, but die quite regularly as would be expected of normal human characters in a fantasy setting.

Jedi Lightsaber as an anti-fire defense; your 3++ save:

For the sake of argument we are accepting that a lightsaber would stop a laser blast, it might not. But it would be a bit much to start throwing in every single hit that can be inflicted on the jedi. Lascannons, flamers, grenades, power fist hits would all be impossible to block; it can even be argued that intercepting a plain old bolt round would cause a detonation that would kill the jedi.

It is not physical possible for a human to intercept a high volume spray of bullets. A jedi might be able to block a laser shot by positioning the lightsaber in the path of the shot because of his force foresight. The jedi might even be able to block 3 or 4 shots a second using this technique as seen in the movies. But the minute the number of shots exceed that rate of fire it becomes humanly impossible for the jedi to intercept those shots. My full auto lasgun example was based on the logical conclusion that a jedi could not intercept the level of shots directed at him was rejected by some; because a lasgun armed IG shouldn’t be able to kill a jedi. Just like the old, “a peasant with a bamboo musket shouldn’t be able to kill the most skilled samurai in Japan” argument.

So here is a real world example, the M16A2 rifle has a rate of fire of 700 - 950 rounds a minute which comes to about 12 to 16 rounds a second. It is physically impossible for a human body to move fast enough to intercept that number of rounds even if a person knows exactly where they are heading. Based on the fluff the lasgun is able of meeting if not exceeding the performance of the modern day rifle creating a situation where the jedi are exposed to a level of fire saturation they could not possible hope to deal with.

If I had to give lightsabers 40K rules they would be Strength +1, AP 3 melee weapons if I was feeling generous; Strength, AP 4 melee weapons if I wasn’t. It’s no guarantee that they would be able to penetrate power armor with ease. There are plenty of examples of the lightsaber having difficulty cutting through durable material.

In regards to the jedi stats and abilities on a whole; it would be generous to compare them to eldar warlocks in their contributions to the storm trooper army. Even if the jedi were the very best swordsman in the galaxy they are still just human or a off-human alien with comparatively low psychic powers (force jump, predict and intercept blaster shots, mind tricks, feeling the deaths of billions, ect) with a power sword like weapon. Jedi force lightening is like a spray taser, whereas; an eldar warlock can reduce a squad of storm troopers to burnt skeletons, cut down vehicles (and blast doors) with his sword with complete ease, and enjoys a 4++ save thanks to his rune armor. Warlocks out jedi the jedi - and in a 40K game, no one points across the table in terror at a guardian squad because of the presence of the warlock in its ranks.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
All clones are copies of Jango Fett, who was played by Temuera Morrison, who played Jake the Muss in the movie "Once Were Warriors"

Needless to say if things get into hand to hand combat the Clones are gonna wipe the floor with guard, Ogryns or no.

Jango's unaltered clone got his ass accidentally kicked by a blind man. I have no faith in the dumbed down versions.

No, he fell down the Sarlaac, kill the thing from the inside, and went off with the girl under the sunset, twice.

Seriously, people, inform yourself For Feth Sake

well, I'd say it depends on which troops each side is fielding...there are first gen clones of Jango Fett, and they would wipe the floor with the Guard...these are the elite guys we see in the clone wars....there are then also the spaarti clones, who would get their handed to them by even a PDF detachment, because those guys are designed to take bullets, being grown in a few months and trained in one.

The kamino clone troopers would probably give the space marines a run for their money if they had the same style armor, because they have the same basic design (genetically enhanced and extremely well trained super soldiers designed to take on the worst of the galaxy)...But since clone troopers don't have the armor of space marines, the marines would win...

Now a very close match would be Republic Commandos versus Space Marines