I've only been playing for two years, and in that time I've only played Orks.
I was holding my breath, hoping that CSM would get an update and some new plastic.
Lo and behold! They did! And I don't like the art direction at all! EFF!

I really wanted to like it, but in the end all I can think is, that it looks too much like 80's and 90's cartoon toy lineups. He-Man and Power Rangers come to mind.
Anyone else think so?

I'm sad, because I wanted to start CSM, but with the new art direction, I'm disinclined.
On the plus side, I just saved several hundred dollars.

Nope, I'm with you...partially. The Tzeentch-looking assault marines are cool, but the dragon is ugly as hell and those "herp derp" faces changeling-monsters-thingies are terrible as well...and I thought about allying with those guys!

The new flyer and the heavy walker previews I saw looked all blingy. I thought if I looked close enough that I might see spinners on them.

Afte 25 years of Chaos changing every few years, you're supposed to get used to it.

I agree, there's way too much going on in those new minis. I think it may discourage new painters who can't seem to paint all the little greebly bits quite right. I know I struggled getting my chosen in DV to look even acceptable, and I still wouldn't confidently set them down on the tabletop.

I do agree that the models are pretty busy, and would be pretty daunting to a new painter, but I generally like the new direction (with the exception of the dragon. I'd rather it look like the FW flyer). It seems to fit the fluff that they have shifting and mutating armor, as it should be seething with the power of the warp. Chaos is supposed to be.... well, chaotic.

I think the Drake looks ridiculous. I like the forgefiend--but only with the big gatling cannons. The warp talons I can take or leave. The mutilators' faces look derpy. Otherwise, not much change.

The chosen models from Dark Vengeance are gorgeous imo.

The Megadragonzord looks horrible. The FW flyers are bad too, but at least they're not the Megadragonzord. That will be the saving grace for a lot of horrible models in the future, I think. "At least it's not the Megadragonzord."

RE: The new Raptors. Those models are awesome, especially since the dumb winglets on the Jump Packs are optional. One complaint though: Who ever looked at a chainsword and thought "Man that's cool, but it just needs a conventional knife or axe blade on the tip, THAT will make it vicious and way more killy." It's a fething chainsaw. A fething chainsaw that has teeth with a monomolecular edge.

/rant

So far so good I say! The Drake seems to be everyone's bugbear but I actually love it! The conversion possibilities are quite exciting and because it's CHAOS!!!! you can make it look however you want! I'll admit the Mutilators look pretty rubbish (and the fact that GW didn't even bother to use a new body sans:Obliterators is cheap) but if they're plastic...awesome! Failcast? Noooooooo! The Warsmith = Awesome
Forgefiend = Bitchin
The rest = cool

I sadly have to agree with the OP. I was so excited about this Chaos release, but I'm finding that none of the models, short of the new cultists, really tickle my fancy

The Hellbrute is a terrible replacement for the old dreadnoughts, both visually and conceptually - why couldn't they just put out a really slick multipart plastic dred incorporating some cult and legion specific bits?

The new Power Rangers walkers are sort of ok looking, and good enough fluff-wise for certain armies, but I don't really want one at all, especially as it doesn't fit my Night Lords force even remotely.

And finally the flyer, the biggest disappointment of all. I don't even like the fact that flyers have now crowded their way onto our tiny battlefields, but at least having a cool CSM close air support or fighter vehicle would be cool. Like a plastic Hell Talon bomber. Instead we get a mecha-godzilla dragon thing. Quite disappointing.

I suppose the major issue I'm having with this release is that it goes completely against the grain of so many existing armies and factions. These models work perfectly well for some generic and heavily corrupted warbands, or Black Legion, Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers especially. For strict adherents of the mono-god armies, for Night Lords or Alpha Legion, or for traitor chapters like the Red Corsairs, this is a sudden and radical departure from the existing imagery and fluff.

I think that's where the disappointment comes in for many people. I foresee a lot of heavily converted models and counts-as going on, which is not what we wanted after watching Dark Eldar and Necrons reboot with beautiful plastic kits for almost all the entries in very fluffy codices.

I don't deny that the chosen are nice. But I can't base a whole army off that. The raptors are also good. But so much else isn't that I'm forced to just stick with my good old green skins.

While I don't dislike the new models (except those horrible Obliterators and Mutilators), I'm just disappointed that this is what they put out in plastic. I'm basically happy with the raptors (thought they seem too busy, and too hard to fit into everyone's army look), I just can't see why we needed two Daemon Engines.

What about a plastic Chaos Dreadnought? How about a Dreadclaw assault pot (CSM drop pod, basically)? What about normal, non-corrupted Chaos fliers? How about Havocs in plastic? Why not a refresh on CSM Bikers, or plastic sprues for Thousands Sons, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, etc? What about Chaos Tanks that aren't simply Space Marine tanks with some spikes glued on?

I'm just disappointed that the 'core', ordinary stuff that should be part of almost every single Chaos army didn't get any attention, but we got plastic kits for specialized, highly individualized Daemon Engines, which probably aren't all that common and almost certainly aren't being churned out in forge worlds in 1-2 standard patterns.

I like the new models (but I think the rear of the dragon needs improvement and it needs wings instead of those pointy things on its arms).

The only models I really dislike are the Mutilators (those heads are DREADFUL).

I think most stuff that is put in resin (and what people want) will be put into Plastic in the next wave so im being hopeful with my fingers crossed

Also Im hoping that there will be an entry for the Dreadclaw drop pod in the new CSM codex who else is (with a plastic model of course)?

I like some of the marines in the new starter set, and the plastic dreadnought. I totally hate the cultists though. And out of the other new plastics coming, the big dragon flyer is kinda ok, the rest is just meh. They seem more toy looking than model looking to me, if that makes sense.

I was afraid I was gonna regret selling my army a while back, but no, I don't.

Not counting Dark Vengeance the Chaos release is not the best.
Limited new kits, loads of redo`s in finecast, no new special characters etc. It is a bit of a let down.

Even without new characters some of the old ones specifically Abaddon and Kharn could really have done with new models.

Mutilators I dont even consider a new kit as they are just oblits with different arms. Stick em in the same box and make something else.
The sorceror sculp is rather boring, the dark apostle is a cool looking mini as is the raptors and I quite like the new Daemon engines but again there could really have been more.
Where are chaos drop pods, new dread kit (FULL KIT), havocs, new cult models etc. I hope for a damn good wave 2

I thought the Chaos releases were a bit 'meh' as well. I'm not keen on this new angular and even more cartoon like style that GW has adopted...
Also it seems a bit ironic that GW think that they are for painters/modellers yet they create minis that are so full of detail that you cannot even sculpt anything on them yourself.

This release is just so hit or miss. New raptors: awesome. Flying dragon: awful. And I don't think that the 'fiends are getting enough hate. If I wanted models that look like action figures, I would go to Toys R Us. Even the flier looks like it will come with "missile firing action!"

They do look very busy. I think it is the CAD trap; the sculptors are throwing stuff onto the models because they can, rather than because it works as a cohesive whole.

I like the artwork for it, I just think it translates poorly into models. Some of the artwork in the new white dwarf is AMAZING but then the model, imo, sucks (the dragon is a perfect example of this).

Some of those models are pretty damn poor. The faces of the mutilators (? the CC oblits), are as someone said a bit "herp derp". They are absolutely terrible. On the other hand, some of the models are really really good. I found the cultists to fit my liking, same as the CSM lord that comes with DV and some of the chosen are pretty good. But some of the stuff on the website...yeesh. Someone got paid for that?

Especially the mutilators. Their faces scream one thing:







(If someone could make a really big version of that gif so it could be posted that would be supreme)

If I were Hasbro, I would be giving GW and C and D letter.

I had High hopes for the "New Edition". Sadly, they were crushed under the GW jackboot.

I really like it me, its only those mutilators that i dont like, they look like some kid messing about with green stuff made the faces.
I quite like the direction they are taking and i dont see the problem with some deamon engines representing the dark mechanicus in there too either.

The new big units look like the designers have been browsing the Warmachine range for ideas, forgefiend especially.

I can't believe how much I hate them. I had just done a big push to get a bunch of my Chaos done for the new Codex, but after seeing the new models I can't help but feel that it's a joke. I hate the new direction, I much prefer the older slightly spiky and horned Space Marine look - I don't care if it's boring!

I like the new figures.

After so many years, the traitor marines (with a few exceptions), would look more and more unlike their loyalist brethren. What with few forge worlds, declining numbers and increased warp inluence.

I think GW is content to show what the traitors have become in 40k with these figures.

30k, which is now a reality, can feed the need for those of us that want to see the distinct traitor legions and their iconography just as Chaos gets a grip on them.

Heldrake looks ridiculous, Helbrute looks good, Forgefiend/Maulerfiend are fine as Daemon engines imo, they're meant to be animalistic in appearance and unlike the Heldrake worked.

Dont have an issue with anything else really. I like that they've tried to give the CSM a more distinctive visual style other then Loyalist Space Marines with spikes.

As somebody who liked what Chaos looked like in the original Rogue Trader era I like them

(Well except the obliterators, they need paper bags on their heads)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


(Well except the obliterators, they need paper bags on their heads)

That should be easy to sculpt. Looking forward to your pics...

tim

Honestly, Obliterators have always been pants.

They will always be pants until GW stops with the whole "Let's make it look like they're midmutation!" shenanigans.

Midmutation? I get more of a "Oh crap, I dropped the green into the bitz box." vibe from Oblits.

Have to say that I don't think there is a single one of the new Chaos models that I actually like, which is a shame since CSM are the only army I play (whenever I actually play 40K any more anyway ).

I like all of it except the fish faced assault oblits and the much maligned stained glass mothra flyer.

No. You are not alone.

Between Mecha-Godzilla and Mecha-King Ghidorah...I was half expecting the latest White Dwarf to actually be a copy of Tokyo Pop...nope, just the latest bit from GW.

Every release from them I keep hoping more and more that they will just fire the entire design side of GW and stick to licensing their stuff in the big office. Let a competent group like Forge World take over on actually making stuff.

I had high hopes after seeing what was in Dark Vengeance (except for the dread thing... not a fan of that). But the new release is one hell of a disappointment.

Overall, it really reflects the much more 'toyetic' appearance that GW has been pushing. It's not really a sudden thing, GW's been doing this for years, but it's getting to the point where the fisher-priceyness is overcoming the original aesthetic.

I'm not a fan, personally.

My problem with the Helldrake is the lack of a proper tail.

Well, that was my first problem, the second was it looks like wings being glued onto a rubber chicken.

I've never liked the whole 'stretched faces' look in general, to be honest.

I do however, not mind the chaos rhino monster dudes, they're fairly neat and chaos-ey.

I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore.

That being said, I wouldn't say it's that bad by itself. Personally I only like the Cultists though.

Gnawer wrote:
I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore.

This is something which is quite interesting.

Many people were saying the exact opposite with the last book. But the truth is?

Chaos can be both. There's nothing stopping you from having "rogue" Astartes (outside of it being a bit of a popular trope--"Astartes go rogue, fight for themselves! No more Emperor!") and nothing to stop someone else from having the super evil and deformed shenanigans.

Well, if the new trend continues we can make a good guess as to what's in store for Noise Marines:

Gnawer wrote:
I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore. .

The much-despises 4th edition codex more or less went this direction. This is interesting as it's a fairly minority opinion. Most like Chaos Space Marines to be....Chaos Space Marines with renegades as a footnote possibility.

Plus your CSM army can still indeed be renegades. The Red Corsairs and Night Lords are examples of factions given attention in the recent codex which are still more or less what you describe. Particularly the Red Corsairs as the Night Lords lack an overall cohesive leadership.

Many people were saying the exact opposite with the last book.

Which is only natural, because it's not about which style is better, but about a sudden change in a general view of the army.

Same thing recently happened with Necrons. I liked Necrons in 3 and 4 ed, because they were evil zombie robots. Then they became some kind of metal egyptians. And it was like, what's that supposed to mean, give me my zombie robots back. Ok, I got around that by filing off the excessive decorations, not reading the new fluff, and pretending they are still robots. Still, there's no way to completely ignore the new units and their style. Same with Chaos. Only now it's impossible to file all that stuff off, it's like 90% of the model. It's easier to just start over with a new army, maybe even chaos one, but with new concept based on modern models.

Gnawer wrote:
I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore.

That being said, I wouldn't say it's that bad by itself. Personally I only like the Cultists though.

Conveniently, your bolded statement is why Chaos has sucked for the past 5 years. Thanks goodness we're done with this crap, because that's not Chaos.
While true Chaos players move onto the next codex, you should still keep playing with your bland, watered down Gavdex. Alternatively, if you want to play "renegades", go use a counts-as for a Space Marine codex since that's more what they'll be able to offer you to be honest.

However I should note that I like the new CSM art direction in term of the Chosen, Cultists, and Helbrute. Aka Dark Vengeance Chaos. I don't care for the dragon or the chaos zoids, though the Raptors do have some potential.

Also I looked forward to seeing your stuff on eBay!

I, on the most part, really like the CSMs, which is good because I do plan on collecting them at some point (well, my uncle gave me roughly 2k pts of them, so I figured I may as well expand). In particular, I love the Forgefeind and the Warpsmith.

I do have to agree though, that the Heldrake is pretty more. I mean, it is quite cool and has a strong impression, but I don't like how it's all covered in that 'CSM-y metal', it's just as if no thought has gone into it. If I ever end up starting a CSM army, and including one, I'll probably do a conversion from a Dark Elf Dragon or something, I think the Heldrake should be more fleshy, like half warped flesh, half metal, merged and fused together.

I don't really like the new art direction either :/
The art style for 4th and 5th ed was awesome imo, I love it. The one thing I hate most about this is the new raptors. They look absolutely HORRID, I loved the old ones though.

Gnawer wrote:
I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor.

I completely agree with this, I thought I was the only one.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Gnawer wrote:
I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore.

That being said, I wouldn't say it's that bad by itself. Personally I only like the Cultists though.

Conveniently, your bolded statement is why Chaos has sucked for the past 5 years. Thanks goodness we're done with this crap, because that's not Chaos.
While true Chaos players move onto the next codex, you should still keep playing with your bland, watered down Gavdex. Alternatively, if you want to play "renegades", go use a counts-as for a Space Marine codex since that's more what they'll be able to offer you to be honest.

I guess that makes me a Renegade Chaos player as well. I loathed the Slaves To Darkness/The Lost and The Damned-era renegades for being the John Blanche-inspired melted and deformed mistakes that they were. The 2nd Ed. Chaos Marines were an improvement, but in my eyes hindered by the "Got Gun? Paint It Red!" attitude of the era. It wasn't until the Marines got a resculpt that brought them closer to Loyalists that I finally thought they were worth building an army of. Now that they seem to be drifting back to the dark old days, I'm going to put them on the back burner and work on something else.

I would like to see images of some of the new models, such as the Daemon Engines/Fiends and Dragon-flyer-thing next to the existing Chaos range, such as Defilers, Predators and Dreadnoughts; as I can't imagine many of the new and old models look right alongside each other.

The Chosen Champion and somewhat the Raptors are the only new models I like. I feel like much of the new stuff looks like toys, rather than Daemonic Engines of destruction, produced by the biggest galactic badasses and darkest recesses of human emotion.

I would much rather they went in the direction of the FW Decimator, than the new toys:

I'm not a fan of the new art direction either. They've overused on the detail (i.e. too many symbols and gibbly faces). The new vehicle kits look a bit gimicky IMO. I wouldn't say this issue is only limited to Chaos as some of the recent Loyalist Marine kits have way too many purity seals (to the point where they look like they robbed an office supplies store). That being said, some of the new models really do look like Power Ranger villains.

Personally I was hoping to see some kits that more of an emphasis on their classic archaic, riveted look. Kits that look like the Decimator or the plastic Chaos Lord kit is personally what I was hoping to see.

As an extreme converter, I don't really mind one way or another, since I tend to want complete control over a model's appearance in any case. That being said the only new models I am enthusiastic about and would use 'as is' are cultists, and even with them I don't think they are perfect.... the other kits might give a few good bits, that's about it.

Aside from that, I am very happy with the 'rules art' so far... in other words, less about space marine vehicles with spikes and more about evil possessed walkers and flyers. Just can't wait to get the release so I can figure out the proper dimensions for everything and figure out my list and what I want to build.

As for moving away from space marine renegades... very happy with that as well. If you want to do that get a space wolf or blood angels 'dex, they make great renegades lists... and you can have all the toys like land speeders that renegades should have. Not to mention the new codex should also be able to do that to some extent.

Just because the latest flyer/megazord looks like gak doesn't mean you're screwed and should sell your army... wait and see if the havocs with flakk missiles are viable, or something with the quad gun, or just get some guard allies... there are a thousand things you can do.

I think the misconception is thinking its a new direction. The aesthetics of all the new models have a basis in pre-existing models. The mauler-fiend is mostly a much larger Juggernaught. The dragon is conceptually based off epic models, updated with the aesthetics of Forgeworld's flyers. If you don't like the aesthetics its really a case of having not paid attention to what was a part of the full span of Chaos.

The chaos marines have been sketched similar to these new minis since rogue trader and GW is finally sculpting miniatures that live upto those concepts.

The depiction of chaos as Space marines + Spikes is stupid... a stupid depiction that GW was right to get away from. Its moving closer to the Rogue Trader depiction, where these Chaos Marines were mortals becoming more and more a part of their armor... daemonic in appearance as they were exposed to the warp. These vehicles represent something much more consistent with the notions that daemon engines take many forms and are the results of many different attempts to produce daemon warmachines through heretical research.

The models are more distinctive and bring an organic quality. It represents a more dynamic existence for chaos and not one trapped in the 10,000 year ago era that they failed to represent aesthetically.

I've played Chaos since the start of 3rd... I like these "changes" that has put the stagnant interpretation of Chaos back on course to being distinctive and not just loyalist marines with less.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
As somebody who liked what Chaos looked like in the original Rogue Trader era I like them

(Well except the obliterators, they need paper bags on their heads)

Ditto. I really like the old school style on the new models.

Also, the FW Decimator is even more of a "copy and paste from warmachine" style than the new models are. Those are some pretty bangin' shoulder pads and smoke stacks there.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
As somebody who liked what Chaos looked like in the original Rogue Trader era I like them

(Well except the obliterators, they need paper bags on their heads)

Obliterators are now some of the weakest models in the range. It isn't just their sculpts either. GW's retconned their background a bit... they started off as an explanation of what happened to Chaos' techmarines but now that we have warpsmiths, they're kinda just fugly specialized terminators. I really hope that they do something with new miniatures for them; right now that they're concepts pulled out from under them, which gives GW the opportunity to reimagine them. Maybe one day GW will give them a plastic kit and make them look like mini-Hellbrutes.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the misconception is thinking its a new direction. The aesthetics of all the new models have a basis in pre-existing models. The mauler-fiend is mostly a much larger Juggernaught. The dragon is conceptually based off epic models, updated with the aesthetics of Forgeworld's flyers. If you don't like the aesthetics its really a case of having not paid attention to what was a part of the full span of Chaos.

....The models are more distinctive and bring an organic quality. It represents a more dynamic existence for chaos and not one trapped in the 10,000 year ago era that they failed to represent aesthetically.

Did you ever see many Juggers running around? It worked fine for the model but it was a bit overwrought. Expanding that kind of excessive detail just doesn't work on the larger scale because they're missing the point of using the negative space on the model to emphasize the details and they didn't really try to work better detail, just more of the same. The more I look at them the more confused I feel about all of the daemon engines that just got released.

I still love the direction they're going with the base troops though. The DV set was a great example of how things could change for the better. I like the Hellbrute. I know I'm in the minority but I really hated the last set of Dreads. I collected some of the older ones that looked more like the daemon engines should to make up for it, but I can't bring myself to take a Dremmel to them and mod them out since they'll never be back... Plasma Cannons and CC for me.

I agree the direction they're going is better, but also that they're just not doing enough. The old traitor legion should be getting more love since they're kinda the basis of the whole deal. And the cult legions should be getting new sculpts and be differentiated more. I think GW could increase sales to Chaos players by making the cults and traitors more unique in relation to one another. Besides, the Night Lords could really use new helmets... It does seem that I'm one of the few who wants to collect every flavor of Chaos though, so maybe it's just my personal dream.

See, I really like the Warpsmith and anything vaguely Mechanicus/Techmarine-looking. The excessive overload of cables, wires, servos, and techy-bits just adds to the appeal.

I echo others' opinions on the Dragon and the Brute. It looks like a mecha-villain from a cheesy 80's/90's Saturday Morning cartoon.

After the great art direction of the Dark Eldar and Tyranid lines (and also the Eldar Fire Prism), it's disappointing that they took Chaos in this awkward direction. It seems that Space Marine armies in general are cursed to silliness from the Stormhawk to the Dreadknight to the Storm Talon to now this. Even the recent Forge World's Erectus Overcompensatus-pattern Land Raider looks uninspired and silly.
Warhammer 40k doesn't always have to be serious,

I don't much care for the style, but a big part of that is that it seems that they have chosen the Chaos line to really embody the style that GW has been developing for some time. It so happens to be a style I really don't like. A sort-of baroque, highly adorned, ornate style that seems at once very old, but also, to me in any case, very 1990's.

In a very real way it reminds me of nothing so much as the child-like certainty that things are only made better by being covered with glitter and pictures and brick-a-bract. It is, however, very much in keeping with the overall theme of a lot of GW's backstory and aesthetic. It's an old, stagnant universe, where things haven't gotten better, just gotten more crusty with stuff. The Chaos line simply takes that idea and turns it up to 11.

I think people are reading too much into the "Renegade" aspect of some people's complaints, including mine.

I hated the Gavdex for gutting my chaos marines. I have a Night Lords army that sticks fairly closely to how I imagine the NL fighting and surviving, pretty much in line with ADB's Soul Hunter trilogy. So I don't have daemons, I don't want daemon engines, I don't need Oblits.

What I do want, and I am surprised GW hasn't gone in this direction at all, is CSM as a more logical outgrowth of the survivors of the Heresy. With the HH books and FW's old marks of armor and Contemptor dreads doing so well, it seems insane not to incorporate more of that imagery. That would have been killer for probably the majority of CSM players.

So while I dislike the Fisher-Price models, I think the concept of the various daemon engines is viable, but only as a part of the codex, not the entire heavy support section. Yes, include a giant Forgefiend for the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers players, but also put out a good-looking plastic dreadnought kit for everyone else. Put in a Hell Blade-like close air support option so we all aren't stuck with a dragon, for crying out loud.

Bring back the diversity of chaos without making it goofy, toylike, or pigeon-holed into one previously obscured facet of CSM armies. I think this is a real concern, as it's the same problem that happened with the 4th edition codex. The focus suddenly shifted to Renegade chapters and everything else got the shaft. What I really don't want is another dramatic shift in the opposite direction, where all of the new/best options are so heavily warped that they're unrecognizable as marines (and ugly kits to boot).

I'm ok with the style, I just wish they had applied it accross the entire range. I was so stoked when I saw the DV Chosen & Chaos Lord. Then I started seeing the other new sculpts & was pretty ok w/ them, especially the Warpsmith & the Aspiring Champion. Even the Heldrake is growing on me (I do wish it had some sort of tail though). The daemon-engines are pretty cool, I think the Forgefiend with the twin Hades Autocannons is boss. However, when I set these models down next to my 10 year old Thousand Sons/Berzerkers & my 5 year old vanilla CSM, they are going to look incredibly out of place.

Personally, even though I do like the majority of the new models, I'm pretty dissapointed in this release. When you look @ what DE/'Crons got in their new codecies, I feel we CSM players got a bit shafted.

If you're going to so drastically change the direction of the way the whole army 'feels', then you also need to change the way the whole army looks to match.

~Vryce

I'm finding that GWs new models are pretty good for the most part when they're doing re-sculpts of old concepts e.g. Black Knights, Chaos Raptors, Tomb Guard, Necron Immortals, Plague Bearers, Dark Eldar Talos etc.

They've started to come unstuck when they try to do something new e.g. Coven Throne, Helldrake, Luminark/Hurricanum, Storm Talon, Dreadknight etc etc. It's like the designers believe that because they can sculpt anything these days, they can go nuts with the concept work which is then reflected in the final model... and not in a good way.

Less is more and all that...

 Lordhat wrote:


RE: The new Raptors. Those models are awesome, especially since the dumb winglets on the Jump Packs are optional. One complaint though: Who ever looked at a chainsword and thought "Man that's cool, but it just needs a conventional knife or axe blade on the tip, THAT will make it vicious and way more killy." It's a fething chainsaw. A fething chainsaw that has teeth with a monomolecular edge.

/rant

You can stab with that new chainsaw now!

Im with OP on the Toy bit, the helturky with the creepy exhaust vent as its rear is by far one of the worst models gw has made and it reminds me of an pterosaur toy I had as a kid (maybe I can find it and make a conversion of it).

The mutilators faces as many already said looks like crap (or more like the mutilators are taking a crap)...

Then I kinda think the Forge/Mauler-fiends are ok but still they got that Toy feeling as OP pointed out.

Havoc's made into failcast is just pure insanity since they REALLY need an upgrade. (for less $ you can get a devestator squad = get more - pay less).

I'm a huge fan of Chaos, since 2nd ed and I can say that I'm not all that impressed with the new range.

The 2nd ed stuff had loads of character, but the 6th ed stuff is just... well... boring.

IMO, Chaos has the best fluff in the game. The Heresy, the long war against the Imperium has all been one of my faves. It would just be great to have models as good as the fluff.

Not since Abaddon, Fabius and Kharn has any Chaos model got me to go "yep... totally buying that."

I'm going to retunr to my first ever army, which was Dark Angels and rebuild my 3rd Company Army from the Battle of Piscina IV.

JoshInJapan wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Gnawer wrote:
I was collecting a Chaos army with plans to complete it once the new Chaos released. After looking at new sculpts, I'm now selling the models I got, even though it is already almost 75% of a playable army, most of it painted.

I liked to think of Chaos as of something not super evil and deformed, but rather a bunch of rogue space marines who would rather fight for their own causes than blindly obey the Emperor. Which of course is not true for older chaos legions, but newer warbands could be this way. The new art direction completely denies me this view, so I see no point in collecting Chaos anymore.

That being said, I wouldn't say it's that bad by itself. Personally I only like the Cultists though.

Conveniently, your bolded statement is why Chaos has sucked for the past 5 years. Thanks goodness we're done with this crap, because that's not Chaos.
While true Chaos players move onto the next codex, you should still keep playing with your bland, watered down Gavdex. Alternatively, if you want to play "renegades", go use a counts-as for a Space Marine codex since that's more what they'll be able to offer you to be honest.

I guess that makes me a Renegade Chaos player as well. I loathed the Slaves To Darkness/The Lost and The Damned-era renegades for being the John Blanche-inspired melted and deformed mistakes that they were. The 2nd Ed. Chaos Marines were an improvement, but in my eyes hindered by the "Got Gun? Paint It Red!" attitude of the era. It wasn't until the Marines got a resculpt that brought them closer to Loyalists that I finally thought they were worth building an army of. Now that they seem to be drifting back to the dark old days, I'm going to put them on the back burner and work on something else.

Lmfao, please do. How could you like Chaos and despise Slaves to Darkness? Also a lot of that art was Ian Miller's anyway, John Blanche didn't have much of a hand in that book.

Also your bolded. Of course you didn't like Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned, you just wanted spikey (hurrrr) and emo Mureenz.
If you hate a truly disturbing aesthetic, that's your prerogative. But to think that the 2nd edition spikey marines were an improvement is pretty ridiculous. If you really just wanted evil marines, go play a space marine codex and glue on some spikes to your tacticals and assault marines.

And it's true, the old days were darker and much more disturbing. If you can't handle it, sucks for you, I've had to deal with crappy spikey marines forever and trawling trading websites for Rogue Trader Chaos stuff is expensive.
I for one welcome my disturbing, mutated, insane marine overlords. Have fun playing with your "Marines gone baaaaad".

The thing is, I'd hardly call the new Chaos marines "disturbing, mutated, and insane."

More like "Stuff" marines. They don't look mutated or insane, they just look incredibly cluttered and messy.

It's actually pretty amusing to read the website description of the new models. It's like a laundry list of random 'stuff,' and makes it feel as if everything was forced onto the model. "Look, guys! See, there's lots of chaos stuff on him! He's chaotic, get it!"

It also doesn't help that the posing isn't anything special compared to what we've seen before, even from the loyalists.

It's especially disappointing considering that the Chosen from Dark Vengeance actually looked pretty good. It suffered from many of the same flaws, but at least it wasn't so boring and toyetic about it.

 Fafnir wrote:
The thing is, I'd hardly call the new Chaos marines "disturbing, mutated, and insane."

More like "Stuff" marines. They don't look mutated or insane, they just look incredibly cluttered and messy.

It's actually pretty amusing to read the website description of the new models. It's like a laundry list of random 'stuff,' and makes it feel as if everything was forced onto the model. "Look, guys! See, there's lots of chaos stuff on him! He's chaotic, get it!"

It also doesn't help that the posing isn't anything special compared to what we've seen before, even from the loyalists.

It's especially disappointing considering that the Chosen from Dark Vengeance actually looked pretty good. It suffered from many of the same flaws, but at least it wasn't so boring and toyetic about it.

When I talk about the new direction for Chaos Marines, I noted that I'm talking about Dark Vengeance Chaos. That's what I'm looking for and what I want. For the first time in about 2 or so years, I have stopped caring about the absurd price of the Rogue Trader Chaos Marines and I'm getting a couple sets of the new Chosen to convert for my line troops.

I dislike the dragon, I dislike the maulerfiends and forgefiends. The difference is that I don't need that stuff to play Chaos Space Marines. I need CSM to do that, and if the models suck then I'm out of luck, hence why I've had to convert basically all of my marines hahaha

Granted the posing for DV Chaos is somewhat boring but they're all snapfit models so I can't complain too much.

Don't think I've posted in here yet (thought about it a few times), but I also dislike the new Power Ranger type models. I also was only a fan of a couple models from DV, and the only new models I like are the raptors. Everything else looks far too cartoony and seems to fail. I love my old school Noise Marines, with the daemonic heads, tongues sticking out and big skull faces on their guns, and I even like the previous edition CSM models, but these new ones...no. If I stick with CSM, I won't run any of the new toys, or I'd convert my own. They're butt-ugly. Some people will like them though. Hell, 1 out of every 3,400,000 people are crazy enough to like the Dreadknight, and these look slightly better. Not much, but slightly.


Does anyone else think that the Heldrake looks like it just got f*$ted by Paul Bunyon?

Don't like the hellbrute, the concept is good, but the pose is awful. One would look OK, but two would look stupid.
The helldrake looks like a rubber chicken, with some triangular wings stuck on. New wings and some sort of tail fins, would cure that.
hellfiend/mauler, no just no
GW have the sculptors, just look at the contempter dread or decimator demon engine.
They have the talent, so why turn out this dross.

I think the least impressive members of the new lineup belong to the Dragon / Mutilators, as others have said. In their company however are models like the new sorcerer, warp talons, and aspiring champion, which are all really awesome minis. I also love the look of the Hellbrute and think it beats the ever-living snot out of the old chaos dread design. The Forgefiends are cool, but I think for their role on the battlefield they are far too large and pose various problems (transport, LoS, etc) through that, much the same weaknesses as the old Defiler.

aka; great so I have a 12/12/10 model that is as big / bigger than some superheavies

wee

I loathe them. Don't get me wrong, they're a feat of modelling when you look at the technicals, but overall they're hideous.

Firstly, I don't think there have been enough people complaining about how busy the models are (as in, fewer than 100%). The worst part about the needless detail cluttering up everything is that there is no theme whatsoever. It looks like they took their old models, filled a box with random bones, hornes, SM bitz and whatever else they had lying around, covered the CSM with PVA glue, and dipped it in the box.

Are they supposed to be demonic? Are they supposed to be renegades? Are they supposed to be the new space barbarians? Are they supposed to be freakish mutants? Are they supposed to be warp-fueled monsters? It feels like GW just couldn't decide what the new theme of CSM would be, so it decided to do all of the themes simultaneously. The end result is awful.

Some of the new stuff may be salvageable with a lot of work with a knife removing some of the needless detail. In the end, I think I'll just stick with the khorne berzerker box. Starting with no detail and then adding a little bit of tasteful kitbashing with a single theme is much better than spending hours with a file and hobby knife attempting to create the same effect by removing junk.

I love the new Chaos Space Marines infantry, but I dislike the Mutilators, the Warpsmith and the Dragon thing. Ah well, I'll just buy the minis I like and not buy the ones I don't.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmfao, please do. How could you like Chaos and despise Slaves to Darkness? Also a lot of that art was Ian Miller's anyway, John Blanche didn't have much of a hand in that book.

Also your bolded. Of course you didn't like Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned, you just wanted spikey (hurrrr) and emo Mureenz.
If you hate a truly disturbing aesthetic, that's your prerogative. But to think that the 2nd edition spikey marines were an improvement is pretty ridiculous. If you really just wanted evil marines, go play a space marine codex and glue on some spikes to your tacticals and assault marines.

And it's true, the old days were darker and much more disturbing. If you can't handle it, sucks for you, I've had to deal with crappy spikey marines forever and trawling trading websites for Rogue Trader Chaos stuff is expensive.
I for one welcome my disturbing, mutated, insane marine overlords. Have fun playing with your "Marines gone baaaaad".

Just what.....
This is a very rude statement, also, I think this is this perfect reason GW should make two different codices. One for Renegades and one for horribly mutated uglies that are unable to speak due to another arm instead of a tongue. It is cool to have like a unit of mutants, but the normal marines being that changed and deformed makes no sense whatsoever. A normal CSM is not a chaos spawn.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Lmfao, please do. How could you like Chaos and despise Slaves to Darkness? Also a lot of that art was Ian Miller's anyway, John Blanche didn't have much of a hand in that book.

Also your bolded. Of course you didn't like Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned, you just wanted spikey (hurrrr) and emo Mureenz.
If you hate a truly disturbing aesthetic, that's your prerogative. But to think that the 2nd edition spikey marines were an improvement is pretty ridiculous. If you really just wanted evil marines, go play a space marine codex and glue on some spikes to your tacticals and assault marines.

And it's true, the old days were darker and much more disturbing. If you can't handle it, sucks for you, I've had to deal with crappy spikey marines forever and trawling trading websites for Rogue Trader Chaos stuff is expensive.
I for one welcome my disturbing, mutated, insane marine overlords. Have fun playing with your "Marines gone baaaaad".

I agree with most of what you said; Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned are fething amazing books, and I really disliked the 4th and 5th ed 'Marines Gone Bad' direction for Chaos.

That being said, there's no need to be so impolite, man. We're just talking about toy soldiers. Very expensive and cool looking toy soldiers with indepth backgrounds, but still toy soldiers none the less. As a great man once said, "For god's sake, they're man-dollies".

 Shredsmore wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmfao, please do. How could you like Chaos and despise Slaves to Darkness? Also a lot of that art was Ian Miller's anyway, John Blanche didn't have much of a hand in that book.

Also your bolded. Of course you didn't like Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned, you just wanted spikey (hurrrr) and emo Mureenz.
If you hate a truly disturbing aesthetic, that's your prerogative. But to think that the 2nd edition spikey marines were an improvement is pretty ridiculous. If you really just wanted evil marines, go play a space marine codex and glue on some spikes to your tacticals and assault marines.

And it's true, the old days were darker and much more disturbing. If you can't handle it, sucks for you, I've had to deal with crappy spikey marines forever and trawling trading websites for Rogue Trader Chaos stuff is expensive.
I for one welcome my disturbing, mutated, insane marine overlords. Have fun playing with your "Marines gone baaaaad".

Just what.....
This is a very rude statement, also, I think this is this perfect reason GW should make two different codices. One for Renegades and one for horribly mutated uglies that are unable to speak due to another arm instead of a tongue. It is cool to have like a unit of mutants, but the normal marines being that changed and deformed makes no sense whatsoever. A normal CSM is not a chaos spawn.

Okay first of all that's a really cool idea for a model, thank you! This is why I enjoy Chaos, you get fun stuff like that.

And again to be totally honest, if you want to play Renegades then play a counts-as Space Marine codex. I'm dead serious dude and I mean that in as nice a way as possible. This new Chaos codex most likely won't work too well for Renegades, considering that over the course of the game champions and lords are going to mutate and gain chaotic attributes.
You can perfectly play any kind of Renegade Marine army with a Space Marine codex, but let's not confuse them with "Chaos" because they're not.

Marines that have been in the Eye of Terror for thousands of years should be horribly demented and twisted, even the "normal" ones. Now perhaps they won't be as "touched" as the champions, but they will certainly not look the same. They still have some knowledge of what they've done and been through, but being in that kind of environment for that long will certainly do something to you!

I agree they're all pretty horrible models, with the "good" ones really just mediocre (but good in comparison to the truly awful).

Helldrake...are there words to describe just how bad that model is?

The Fiends...eh. They're not Helldrake or Mutilator level bad but, they're certainly not awe inspiring. I think my main criticism is they are just so static.

The raptors are O.K. I suppose, but the old ones were far better. Why not just do a resculpt/re-release of them?

I find it very ironic that people love the warpsmith, but love the direction of CSM moving away from "marines with spikes!" Seriously the warpsmith is a techmarine...with chaos bitz.

Totally agree about the business of all the models. That dark apostle is just horrible with the scrolls covering his body and the goofy, massive chaos halo.

The funny thing is I don't even mind that I dislike the new models, because I honestly wouldn't have included any in my Death Guard army. The sad part is that there is no new sculpts for cult troops or special characters.

I was going to start a small alpha legion force to use with my guard from time to time. Loved the idea of them deceiving and tricking loyalist forces into working for them. Not to mention that they trained their underlings in guerrilla warfare and tactics instead of just making them meatshields.

Then I saw the new models... Whelp, there goes that plan.

Long story short, too much crap, not enough god@#$% sense.

It is literally spikes for the spiek god, needless details for the needless detail throne. Heck, I hated the Cadian models for being "plain" but they look like friggin masterpieces compared to these train wrecks. At least there they knew where to stop. Here, they literally kept adding details until there was NOWHERE left to add it to.

If I ever get around to that Alpha legion force, it'll have to be converted from regular space marines, or even from the MKII and other older variants forgeworld makes. These new models just make my eyes bleed. And probably my hands too if I ever tried to hold one.

Also, is anyone else thinking they'll pour all their firepower into the chaos flyer as soon as possible just so they don't have to stare at such a hideous model on the table? Because I know I will be.

I like it all. Maybe I'm just weird, though I do like some things more than others.

I don't get the hate directed at the extra details. I did mention that the cultists were my fav of the new models, but I can see the bright side of having a lot of detail molded onto the mini.

First off, there is the option to just not pick out the details or use atmospheric effects like OSL over them, you know blend the colors together on the mini, that will make them look a lot less busy than the GW paintjob. There are some great hellbrute paintjobs appearing that really make it look cool. You don't need to color in the lines like GW does when they paint.

Second, if you are very much into painting but not so much into converting/building then the models are awesome, they are pre-made with all the bits to look cool, and there is a lot of different areas to practice or demonstrate your painting skills on.

If you're not into painting the models will still look cool and dynamic if you just do something like wash + drybrushing...

I wouldn't use a lot of the models as-is. But the bits are a goldmine, especially those warp talons. If you don't like so much busy-ness, just grab the bits later and add them to normal dudes, or get the cheap DV models and chop off parts you want to use. It's easier than buying a whole new model and chopping/sawing all the extra bits off... which is ridiculous as you would pretty much need to sculpt a whole new model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I was going to start a small alpha legion force to use with my guard from time to time. Loved the idea of them deceiving and tricking loyalist forces into working for them. Not to mention that they trained their underlings in guerrilla warfare and tactics instead of just making them meatshields.

Then I saw the new models... Whelp, there goes that plan.

I would suggest: Blood angels with guard allies. With BA you can get outflanking fast tanks, scouts, deepstriking/drop pod guys. With guard, you can get sentinels, marbo, could use cultists for models, and use other cool stuff.

Second, if you are very much into painting but not so much into converting/building then the models are awesome, they are pre-made with all the bits to look cool, and there is a lot of different areas to practice or demonstrate your painting skills on.

Not really. When I'm converting, it's the more generic, plain parts that I like using as a base. Too much extra crap makes it too hard to properly convert into anything good, and makes the parts too iconic to be inconspicuous with the rest of the conversion. For the purposes of painting, if you really want to show off your skills, you actually want models that aren't incredibly busy and messy, to show off freehanding and blending.

 Fafnir wrote:

Not really. When I'm converting, it's the more generic, plain parts that I like using as a base. Too much extra crap makes it too hard to properly convert into anything good,

Yeah use the models for parts. Chop off a head here and there, use a shoulder pad. Those DV backpacks are awesome for true scale stuff.

For the purposes of painting, if you really want to show off your skills, you actually want models that aren't incredibly busy and messy, to show off freehanding and blending.

Yeah the dark vengeance models all have flat areas to paint on. The lord has a cloak as well. Also you can do a great paintjob on any surface, the edges of armor plate you can do NMM on, you can experiment with different textures and lighting sources, etc. My point was that in one model you can show off painting metal, bone, fabric, glowing weapons, runes, organic eyes and such.... the sky is the limit.

check out this hellbrute, pretty awesome.

It's an amazing paintjob, but the model is still ugly as sin.

 Fafnir wrote:
It's an amazing paintjob, but the model is still ugly as sin.

I agree with you a little bit. But only because the sculpt is not my style. Many people like it.. the pose is dynamic and balanced, the detail is crisp, etc. If I were to do one of these I think I would need to make it Nurgle Again I never said the aesthetics are my thing, just that I don't necessarily disagree with the excessive detail. Having that amount of detail created in plastic molds for cheap is ultimately a boon for converters.

I have to disagree. All my best conversions were done using models that were simple to start with.

 Fafnir wrote:
I have to disagree. All my best conversions were done using models that were simple to start with.

Yes, as a base. But lets say you are converting up some true scale chaos guys. You build your own body from a simple base or kit, but then you add stuff like the dark vengeance backpacks, cool looking helmets/shoulder pads/weapons and choice bits, all of which go along with your theme and to your taste. All of that can be mined from the new kits. My point is that they are so cheap, and are literally crammed with so much stuff, you can buy them and chop off bits for awhile, or just buy the bits online. I can eventually do this, using a true-scale chapterhouse marine body (or just built from terminator parts) and adding on bits from the DV kits to add detail in areas, but also making it less busy and forming into the pose I want.

I'm doing it with the cultists now. I just remix the heads and body parts over and over with different other kits. They are really the least busy-looking out of the new range, but I still end up cutting off some of their chaos necklaces and throwing stars. It doesn't bother me too much in the end.

I LOVE the new art direction for Chaos. I love Chaos Warriors, but have always felt the Chaos miniatures in 40k were a bit lackluster. No more. If these new releases were out when I was thinking about what army to collect next, I would have chosen Chaos for sure.

Fafnir wrote:It's an amazing paintjob, but the model is still ugly as sin.

Yup. That's a great attempt at painting over an awful model. And that's really the point. Good models look good no matter how you paint them. Bad models need GD-level paint jobs to make them look even passable, much less good.

As for "spiky marines", I actually liked that motif. I mean, CSM ARE SM, that have just changed sides. In my mind, the two model ranges should actually look rather similar to each other, like how SW models are different, but still pretty similar to codex marines. The same basic thing with a little flare or a single theme to make them distinct is great.

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

Having some things that are completely different than SM is fine (obliterators are tastefully done, for example), but CSM really doesn't make sense without the SM. The new models look just too different.

And then you return to the world of aesthetics. I think that spikey marines are way, way better than the bone-in-the-beard, tentacles everywhere, horny marines. It added content while muddling the content over all. It added detail while losing subtlety. I don't know what I'm looking at anymore, and not in a good way.

 Meade wrote:
I don't get the hate directed at the extra details. I did mention that the cultists were my fav of the new models, but I can see the bright side of having a lot of detail molded onto the mini.

First off, there is the option to just not pick out the details or use atmospheric effects like OSL over them, you know blend the colors together on the mini, that will make them look a lot less busy than the GW paintjob. There are some great hellbrute paintjobs appearing that really make it look cool. You don't need to color in the lines like GW does when they paint.

Second, if you are very much into painting but not so much into converting/building then the models are awesome, they are pre-made with all the bits to look cool, and there is a lot of different areas to practice or demonstrate your painting skills on.

If you're not into painting the models will still look cool and dynamic if you just do something like wash + drybrushing...

I wouldn't use a lot of the models as-is. But the bits are a goldmine, especially those warp talons. If you don't like so much busy-ness, just grab the bits later and add them to normal dudes, or get the cheap DV models and chop off parts you want to use. It's easier than buying a whole new model and chopping/sawing all the extra bits off... which is ridiculous as you would pretty much need to sculpt a whole new model.

because it doesnt look good and it's annoying to build and even more annoying to paint. that dark apostle is a good example... Just look at that thing.. i think i would rather jab a knife in my eye than build/paint that. I feel sorry for the pro painters they pay to paint their stuff.

Even worse look at the 360 of that new aspiring champion. he doesnt even have any range of motion on his left shoulder because his shoulder bling is locked into his backpack. GW is so dead set on stuffing all this crapy looking detail everywhere the models look like they cant even move anymore.

i think the only ones impressed are the 10-12 year olds. they see all the bling and go OMG SO COOL MOMMY BUY IT FOR ME. then they go home spend an hour dumping plastic glue all over everything before giving up and going back to playing video games.

They should leave it up to the modeler. if i feel something needs more details i can add free hand/decals or i can just glue on THE EXTRA BITS THEY INCLUDE IN THE KITS.

and that hellbrute you posted... i hope you realize the guy who painted that probably spent 16-24 hours just painting that OSL and free hand on the upper plates. He also probably charged 1000 or more just for that paint job.

I SHUDDER TO THINK WHAT EVEN A BASIC TACTICAL MARINE WILL LOOK LIKE WHEN GW DECIDES TO REDO THEM. Im guessing 16-24 imperial eagles per model.

edit: oh and no less than 34 purity seals

kb305 wrote:Even worse look at the 360 of that new aspiring champion. he doesnt even have any range of motion on his left shoulder because his shoulder bling is locked into his backpack. GW is so dead set on stuffing all this crapy looking detail everywhere the models look like they cant even move anymore.

Actually, this is my chief complaint about the hellbrute.

You see how that spot right below his left armpit is sprouting a nest of horns? How would he ever put his left arm down? In fact, how could he ever do anything with that arm, other than hold it in that exact position without ramming into them all the time?

The picture of the Obliterator on page 17 of the ol' 3.0 Chaos codex is the very picture that made me want to play 40k.

I said to may friends "What is that thing?! I want an army of those!" Then I saw the actual models and stuck with the Space Marines I had already started collecting.

The newer Oblits and their derpy cousins are absolute garbage. I hate the new Chaos line.

Of all the new chaos stuff I like the Cultists and the DV Lord. A few of the DV Chosen would make good champions but with the direction GW has taken I don't think I'll be buying much for a few years.

Dragon and Fiend(s) look ugly and do not fit into my EC army.

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

Thing is, it is perfectly possible to play good looking (recently turned ) renegades by using the normal tactical squad box and perhaps adding a chaosstar or something.
Playing the "insane nutters marinated in the raw stuff of chaos for centuries" kind of spacemarines currently takes some extensive resculpting, which often still looks inferior to a miniature
which was designed to look that way from scratch. Add the low quality of most current csm boxes ( lack of detail, ugly poses, bad cast quality )and it imo
becomes quite apparent that a redesign was, or still is, in order.

Perhaps the best result would be a relatively plain, redesigned csm box ( the DV armourdesign and better quality and poses but without the extra teeth, eyes and daemonflesh ) and some kind of upgrade set like the Black Templars/ Dark Angels have.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

That is not the old dreadnought, of course you can still use your dreadnought though as the fluff does say that not all of them have converted down the path far enough yet to become corrupted and mutated yet.

My main issue is with those wanting pure renegade armies. Not a legion army that wants to look cohesive.

As for not playing the Chaos Codex, they split it into two. You know, since they used to be a cohesive thing, with daemons and daemon engines being right there with mutated marines and your standard chaos space marine, where you could take mutations on your lords and aspiring champions..Good times, glad they are bringing them back.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

That is not the old dreadnought,

Well being as the hellbrute is the new dreadnought. That is now the old dreadnought

loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

Renegades are just "Marines gone BAAAAAD", there's really no difference for them. The poster above wants a corrupted dreadnought, a warped storm talon...okay? Just use the Space Marine codex then, because you can just use that stuff and use the power of "counts-as".

Ailaros wrote:

As for "spiky marines", I actually liked that motif. I mean, CSM ARE SM, that have just changed sides. In my mind, the two model ranges should actually look rather similar to each other, like how SW models are different, but still pretty similar to codex marines. The same basic thing with a little flare or a single theme to make them distinct is great.

No, Renegades are Space Marines that have just changed sides. Chaos Space Marines are marines that have pledged themselves to dark gods in return for power. They've given up their humanity for glory. Also again your line of thinking is why the 4th edition Gavdex sucked so hard. Now they're changing it, and for the better.

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

Read Slaves to Darkness and you'll realize what true Chaos is. And yes they are still Space Marines, but only in origin. You're right, they've definitely evolved past then, and they are something entirely different. But breaking it down, they're still Space Marines. Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

And I do plan on playing a CHAOS Space Marine army with Chaos Daemons as allies, since that's true Chaos. You guys aren't really grasping the idea that if you worship a Chaos power, you become warped both mentally and physically. You don't just add a couple of spikes to your armor when you live in a completely alternate, insane dimension for thousands of years.

If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex while true Chaos players move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.

Having some things that are completely different than SM is fine (obliterators are tastefully done, for example), but CSM really doesn't make sense without the SM. The new models look just too different.

And then you return to the world of aesthetics. I think that spikey marines are way, way better than the bone-in-the-beard, tentacles everywhere, horny marines. It added content while muddling the content over all. It added detail while losing subtlety. I don't know what I'm looking at anymore, and not in a good way.

These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.
Well get this, Chaos is not "badass", it is disturbing. Watch some creepy/mindblowing movies like Eraserhead or Evil Dead 2, and you'll be in a better mindset of evil than you would if you watched Transformers 3.

If you want that, play counts-as Space Marines using the Blood Angels book since that's what you're looking for.

kb305 wrote:
because it doesnt look good and it's annoying to build and even more annoying to paint. that dark apostle is a good example... Just look at that thing.. i think i would rather jab a knife in my eye than build/paint that. I feel sorry for the pro painters they pay to paint their stuff.

Even worse look at the 360 of that new aspiring champion. he doesnt even have any range of motion on his left shoulder because his shoulder bling is locked into his backpack. GW is so dead set on stuffing all this crapy looking detail everywhere the models look like they cant even move anymore.

i think the only ones impressed are the 10-12 year olds. they see all the bling and go OMG SO COOL MOMMY BUY IT FOR ME. then they go home spend an hour dumping plastic glue all over everything before giving up and going back to playing video games.

They should leave it up to the modeler. if i feel something needs more details i can add free hand/decals or i can just glue on THE EXTRA BITS THEY INCLUDE IN THE KITS.

No, people who ONLY PAINT will enjoy painting these models, and plenty of people will like them, even if personally they're not my thing. That's my only point. They won't have to spend hours modelling on the extra details and pose, they just get it out of the box. Only the veteran modellers that have been used to one thing and can't adjust, or feel entitled that GW should cater only to them, will whine about it. And yes they want kids to buy it, it's a starter set after all.

and that hellbrute you posted... i hope you realize the guy who painted that probably spent 16-24 hours just painting that OSL and free hand on the upper plates. He also probably charged 1000 or more just for that paint job.

I don't think he charged that much, but yes I do in fact realize that. My intention was only to point out that the GW paintjobs make the models look worse than they should.

I SHUDDER TO THINK WHAT EVEN A BASIC TACTICAL MARINE WILL LOOK LIKE WHEN GW DECIDES TO REDO THEM. Im guessing 16-24 imperial eagles per model.

edit: oh and no less than 34 purity seals

These are miniatures. The fact is, a lot of extra little details are what make them look good on the tabletop. It creates an optical illusion that you are looking into a smaller world. That is the way GW has always operated, and how they will continue to operate.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 loki old fart wrote:

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

I do play Chaos marines and take Daemons as allies, does that count?

I agree with Vladsimpaler on this point. The Original legions, and those who have truly given themselves over to chaos, are often warped and possessed by chaos, especially their champions and lords. The new models (in their rules at least) are in many cases, very close to what has been described in the Word Bearers books, The Graham Mcneill description of Iron Warriors, and plenty of other places. Word Bearers people should be happy. Iron Warriors people should be happy. As for the other legions, hopefully when the book comes out and gets played a bit they get a rules upgrade as well. I really don't think Thousand Sons are so bad now. As for kits, there is a whole world of aftermarket parts you can use for them, as well as forgeworld stuff, and all the sorcerer kits are decent.

Really now, do you understand how pissed the public would be if they came out with, oh lets say 'chaos land raider crusader with spikes' and 'stormtalon with spikes' and that was it? They already have 5 variants of space marine codexes out there and you want more? Honestly? The book will already have CSM troops, tanks, landraider and havocs with flakk missiles.

The BA and SW codices represent marines that are partly feral and bloodthirsty, you have death company, you have space wolves that are nasty, so both of these books can easily represent some renegade marines that have turned from the emperor and are doing their own thing or even doing something evil. It's a perfectly normal thing to use those books to represent renegades.

If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

Actually, GW fluff states only that some of the Nightlords are free of mutation. Others are happily following their daemonprince leaders.
There is also nothing wrong with wanting to play evil spacemarines. Sadly the lack of some much needed updates forces everyone, renegade player or legion player, to play ugly spacemarines instead.

The simple fact is the Gav-dex failed to represent renegades or legions properly. If this new codex and miniatures are guilty of anything it is for emphasizing the greater extremes of those exposed to the warp, over everything else with its new vehicles. I think generally that's a good thing because it emphasizes the unique character of "chaos" instead of making them Imperials with less. There is also a scalability in showing the progression into corruption for the more rank and file. I'm just happy that the chaos miniatures are moving towards looking like their art.

I'm not even talking about renegades, here, though. I also think the red corsair's ultramarines with X's painted over their aquillas is lame.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

But the current codex is what you're talking about. A khorne berzerker is a space marine with more interesting armor, better stats, and some really interesting fluff. They're the chocolate milk to regular milk.

The new CSM are more comparing chocolate milk to floor varnish. Yes, they're both brown-colored liquids, but that's about where the comparison ends. You can't see how chocolate milk succame to evil influences and became Minwax. There's just no continuity.

They went from something that was a corrupted and twisted version of something else to something that was a distant cousin to somethings before exploding in an orgy of unecessary horny outgrowths and chotchkeys.

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

My point exactly, well said

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm not even talking about renegades, here, though. I also think the red corsair's ultramarines with X's painted over their aquillas is lame.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

But the current codex is what you're talking about. A khorne berzerker is a space marine with more interesting armor, better stats, and some really interesting fluff. They're the chocolate milk to regular milk.

The new CSM are more comparing chocolate milk to floor varnish. Yes, they're both brown-colored liquids, but that's about where the comparison ends. You can't see how chocolate milk succame to evil influences and became Minwax. There's just no continuity.

They went from something that was a corrupted and twisted version of something else to something that was a distant cousin to somethings before exploding in an orgy of unecessary horny outgrowths and chotchkeys.

Now we're getting into the game as opposed to the art and that's not where I was going with this at all. In terms of art direction, the new Chaos marines (and from this point on, when I refer to Chaos marines I will be referring to the organic, disturbing Chosen, whereas when I refer to renegade I will be referring to the spikey "marines gone baaaad" Marines) are much more in line with the background. Granted, so are the miniatures.

Chaos Space Marines are corrupted, twisted parodies of their former selves, that's what makes them interesting. Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines? They barely hold a resemblance to their former selves, but they're still known as Marines.

Want to know why?

It's because they were originally Space Marines. So yes they may look different. Yes their armor has taken on a new appearance (this is called Chaos Power Armor. Read the new 6th edition codex and it will explain that a lot of the armor has been twisted by the warp which supports my point).


Though at the end of the day, you have no control over how I make my marines, nor do I have the same power over you. You play with your spiked marines, I'll play with my mutated ones. I just feel that mutated makes more sense in the terms of Chaos whereas your interpretation of spiked marines is not Chaotic, it is simply renegade and evil.

@Loki Old Fart, you'll notice that the post above yours by Kingdeath refutes the point about the Night Lords. Also Night Lords who don't give themselves over to a Chaos deity are simply Renegades, not Chaos Space Marines. You know what I mean?

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

 Ailaros wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger? An aspiring champion of khorne isn't going to complain if he suddenly sprouts stronger, hooved legs that enable him to get into battle faster and fight on harder.

Also they all had horns before with all the horned helmets, so actual horns aren't exactly new.

The only thing that would count as a writhing tentacle monster is a spawn, and of course they aren't Space marines anymore at that point. Your going a bit farther into hyperbole now.

You also have an obsession with tentacles, there's far more mutations out there.

Vladsimpaler
Though at the end of the day, you have no control over how I make my marines, nor do I have the same power over you. You play with your spiked marines, I'll play with my mutated ones. I just feel that mutated makes more sense in the terms of Chaos whereas your interpretation of spiked marines is not Chaotic, it is simply renegade and evil.
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Fair enough
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Vladsimpaler
@Loki Old Fart, you'll notice that the post above yours by Kingdeath refutes the point about the Night Lords. Also Night Lords who don't give themselves over to a Chaos deity are simply Renegades, not Chaos Space Marines. You know what I mean?
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D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F

@Vladsimpaler
The reason I posted in this thread, was because you put yourself on a pedestal, and started talking down to other posters. Whose point of view is as valid as yours.

You know what I mean? remember rule number 1 Be polite

 Ailaros wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

Haha well luckily the only horny mutants are those of the Slaaneshi variety so you should be fine with any of the other Big 3 plus any other random gods out there. ; )

Also, let's get down to business now that I understand that your problem is with the "basic" Chaos Marine. Again for the sake of argument I'm assuming that you are talking about a "Chaos" Space Marine, not a renegade Marine that is doing his own thing.

As a preface:
Ever since 1988 (Slaves to Darkness), Champions have served their Chaos deity of choice. They are given a Mark of their god, and their patron deity will bless them with Chaotic Attributes, or in this codex, let's call it Gift of Mutation, since that's basically the same thing. The end goal of a Champion (or an Aspiring Champion) is to become a Daemon Prince. That's the apotheosis, that's the ultimate acquisition of immortality since you are now a Daemon.
Daemons are mutated and twisted in their own way, so it makes sense that as a Champion accomplishes more, they slowly become more and more daemonic, disgusting, and disturbed.

Also the reason for the overabundance of horns and tentacles is because GW sculptors don't have a lot of variety. Again, I really do encourage you to read through Slaves to Darkness, it's pretty enlightening as there is a ton of different mutations, not just hurrr tentacles.

Chosen, as in the "chosen" of a particular god. This means that the god is keeping an eye on said warrior, and these guys could certainly become Daemon Princes.

The overarching idea is that as a Chaos warrior (not necessarily Fantasy, just a generic term) accomplishes more, their patron deity rewards them with more power. However these rewards are mutations most often.

This is why it makes sense for Chaos Space Marines to have mutations.

TL;DR:
Chaos Space Marines should be mutated since they worship a Chaos power and the ultimate goal is to become a Daemon Prince and of course power.
Renegades should not be mutated since they don't really worship Chaos, their ultimate goal is power, not necessarily Daemonhood.
Read the above.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how adding all that detail makes these models look more "chaosy". It just seems to clutter up the models. I think they could have done a lot more with less. you know, less is more and all that.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

You can argue all you want about how the models look more like "Chaos" but nobody should be forced to just take that much detail if they didn't want it. The way they've gone, there is literally no middle ground. You've either got regular marines, or SUPER CHAOS EXTREME MARINES. And of course, the people stuck in the middle are going to be mad.

What I'm trying to say is that they need to leave all the crazy chaos bitz and spikes as OPTIONAL, not molded onto the model where they're almost impossible to remove.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

Actually Alpha legion often do wear the armor of other factions in other to blend in and hide, and infact the one time there was a forgeworld option for them, it was recommended they come blended in with other "Loyalist" colors and marks.

 Fafnir wrote:
I had high hopes after seeing what was in Dark Vengeance (except for the dread thing... not a fan of that). But the new release is one hell of a disappointment.

Overall, it really reflects the much more 'toyetic' appearance that GW has been pushing. It's not really a sudden thing, GW's been doing this for years, but it's getting to the point where the fisher-priceyness is overcoming the original aesthetic.

I'm not a fan, personally.

I agree. After the horrible fantasy Necrons, the trend continues with CSM. I like both ideas for CSM, the renegades and warped but the new ones are neither, just cluttered and fantasish. Dragon is a simple proof that madness is not what GW is aiming for.

I don't care though, with metal plague marines, Typhus, pleague bearers, FW upgraded terminators, Nurgle bikers and 1,5 DV starters to convert, I'm happy to not buy anything Chaos from GW for a long time, that includes ofc 50$ 100 pages book that borders on insanely priced.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Well get this, Chaos is not "badass", it is disturbing. Watch some creepy/mindblowing movies like Eraserhead or Evil Dead 2, and you'll be in a better mindset of evil than you would if you watched Transformers 3.

If you want that, play counts-as Space Marines using the Blood Angels book since that's what you're looking for.

It deeply worries me that you would rather have a disturbing and disgusting army rather than an awesome one that looks badass.
The thing is, I agree with you on a lot of things, having mutants and crazies in an army is fun and its one of my reasons for liking chaos, but that should not be every troop, definitely not. I think that the norm for CSM should be the "spiky marines" that get so much unneccesary hate, with maybe a few crazy mutants, and a crazy, fun, and converted army should be these pseudo-demonic psychos that we all know and love. I think the main reason for my opinion on this is my loyalist base, I'm rather new to chaos, so completely disregard my thoughts if you so please.

Also I think Matt Hutson's Red Corsairs army and Skalk Bloodaxe's Chaos (I love any of his stuff) are the best Chaos armies evar.

I would love to field a sick, disgusting and disturbing army, that's not what GW is doing with 6th edition CSM though. It would require catering to adults and that's something long gone about 40k.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I would love to field a sick, disgusting and disturbing army, that's not what GW is doing with 6th edition CSM though. It would require catering to adults and that's something long gone about 40k.

Not gone, they call it Forge World, and you have to spend your adult job money on it.

Otherwise you are right on target, the more sick and disgusting, the better

Oh yes I want that FW GUO since I first saw it, just like the Keeper of Secrets... no way though, maybe in 2040 assuming my kids will be living on their own then.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Oh yes I want that FW GUO since I first saw it, just like the Keeper of Secrets... no way though, maybe in 2040 assuming my kids will be living on their own then.

I hear they are also accepting payment in the form of child slaves, you might want to consider that.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

The problem is for the longest time most of the models didn't even have any mutations for anything that wasn't specific to it (Possessed, DP, Oblits), one had to either very old models from 1st/very early second edition, or convert your own out of daemon parts and models to convert for your chaos marines.

Now we're finally getting models with mutations within it at least, hopefully someday we'll be able to get a mix and match between the two, but to say I'm disappointed in the current range would be a lie after all the spiked marines with nothing close to it.

They have mutation sprues now, though. You could always add them.





Plus your own GS skills, etc.

It's much harder to remove detail than it is to add it.

 Ailaros wrote:

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

To be fair, they now include random eyeballs and tentacles in their genre.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Correct if I'm wrong, but I believe the thousand sons, because of their experimenting with chaos, started to mutate. They were turned into dust as a result of a desperate attempt to stop the mutation with a powerful spell, and the price was they lost their souls (the rubric marines) in return for this.

Proximity to chaos = mutation in mortals. It is a fundamental theme in the storyline of 40k. You can tell if a planet is tainted by chaos, by the rate of mutation.

Chaos Space marines have such incredible superhuman bodies, they are the only 'humans' whose bodies resist this mutation. That's why they can live in the eye of terror, but their bodies will all be changed no matter what.

If you are a renegade, and you don't want to mutate, you can do that by not hanging out near anything CHAOS, which includes living near the eye of terror, maelstrom, or any kind of warp rift, or even chaos worshippers.

However, without the light of the EMPEROR OF MANKIND to guide you, you will eventually be preyed upon and tempted by the chaos gods whether you like it or not

 Ailaros wrote:
They have mutation sprues now, though. You could always add them.





Plus your own GS skills, etc.

It's much harder to remove detail than it is to add it.

Hm, not bad, it's been a while since I fiddled around for bitz so I didn't notice they have those now (even if it's just two or so sprue's)

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't see how adding all that detail makes these models look more "chaosy". It just seems to clutter up the models. I think they could have done a lot more with less. you know, less is more and all that.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

You can argue all you want about how the models look more like "Chaos" but nobody should be forced to just take that much detail if they didn't want it. The way they've gone, there is literally no middle ground. You've either got regular marines, or SUPER CHAOS EXTREME MARINES. And of course, the people stuck in the middle are going to be mad.

What I'm trying to say is that they need to leave all the crazy chaos bitz and spikes as OPTIONAL, not molded onto the model where they're almost impossible to remove.

So you're complaining that you have to remove an aesthetic part from the model? Why? That's like buying Dark Angels Marines and complaining about all of the robes, or buying Space Wolves and complaining about the wolf skulls and runes. That's Chaos' aesthetic (or antithesis to aesthetics), is that they're not visually pleasing. Now maybe if you play Slaanesh you will want to make some alterations, but Chaos doesn't care about looking pretty. Chaotic Attributes are not pretty, they don't look good.

Also Alpha Legion aren't true "Chaos" per se, they're more like Renegades. And a good amount of the Night Lords have some sort of mutation/Chaos attribute so there's that.

Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

You're showing how limited your thinking is. Gaining Chaos Attributes can mutate, but not always. You don't just grow horns everywhere. Those are all of the spikey, horned Marines that you're thinking of. Also, I'm about to blow your mind. Open this spoiler to see 2 Khorne Space Marines that have been given many different Chaos Attributes/Boons of Chaos.


Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

I love that mutation sprue. not all of it, but the wings and some of the clawed arms are great. Makes me want to use it to add some World Eaters Warp Talons to my army..

And if you don't like the entire sprue, you can always bitz order stuff.

Yeah, those Mutilators . . . I feel sorry for CSM players. So bad. I do think the Hell Brute looks sick though and I like the whole shift from spikey marines to flesh mixing with metal look. The Fiends and Dragon are pretty silly looking though.

I had seriously considered starting chaos as it is one of the only armies not in use by my usual playing mates.

But the model design is just all over the place and range from the cool: chosen, aspiring champion, raptors. To the ugly: standard chaos marines, bezerkers, obliterators. And the downright god awfull: hellchicken, mutilators, terminators.

The rest is just meh.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

But there not plastic... there finecast... if only, if only...

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

...

Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

Do you really consider 6th edition CSM codex to be back to the roots of Warhammer books "not advised for non-adults" or however it was stated then? I mean I saw the artwork yesterday it's kind of nice and gentle, nothing really sick or disturbing and guess what, kind of late kids/ teenagers friendly.

 happygolucky wrote:

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I like them. Lots of gaudy nonsense and twisted faces, and fangs and things like that. But. The other side of the coin is that there's nowhere to do freehand or other things. CSM have always had this problem, but now it's a little worse.

I prided myself over having a very rich and luscious main color that contrasted well with the metals. It's starting to look like there's more trim than actual armor now! Tanks are always there, and your main-line CSM still have shoulder pads and... well. Shins, I guess.

Not too concerned with the obliterators. I think we should be happy to finally have a plastic kit. You can do whatever you want with them now.

But there not plastic... there finecast... if only, if only...

Er... never mind. What a waste of time!

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
For the bolded, read the new 6th edition Codex. When the Thousand Sons first went over to Tzeentch, it basically says "the legion was wracked with mutation". The Rubric of Ahriman destroyed their mortal flesh, thus ending the ability to mutate.

...

Wow! They don't JUST have horns. Expand your mind a little bit and realize that there are different boons of Chaos outside of tentacles, horns, and spikes.
And just like I said to Moustaffa, you have to realize that being disturbing and over the top crazy is the Chaos aesthetic. If you don't like it, then don't buy those models. But that's the way the Chaos Aesthetic has been for a while, it was only just recently changed to be more kid friendly (with big SPIKES AND HORNS YAAAA) so that it would be more understandable to teenagers.

Do you really consider 6th edition CSM codex to be back to the roots of Warhammer books "not advised for non-adults" or however it was stated then? I mean I saw the artwork yesterday it's kind of nice and gentle, nothing really sick or disturbing and guess what, kind of late kids/ teenagers friendly.

And I only vaguely consider it to be moving back towards the Slaves to Darkness era, but yes for the most part it's still kid/teenager friendly and understandable. I mean that with as little "offensiveness" as possible.

OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

Also your signature always makes me laugh! hahaha

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

And I share your opinion on what chaos should be, though I kind of like this guy:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also your signature always makes me laugh! hahaha

Happy to know. The sad part is that it's based on the actual explanations in new cinematic edition rulebook and I still can't figure out the genre of the supposed movie, British comedy if I had to guess.

Wait, the Mutilators come with those faces and failcast? Damn that's brutal.

 solkan wrote:
Afte 25 years of Chaos changing every few years, you're supposed to get used to it.

It is called Chaos for a reason...

I mostly like the new stuff. Yes the dragon and monitor lizard look stupid as hell and I won't be buying either, but the stuff from the starter set is amazing.

I have plans to make a small Tzeench warband of maybe 1000 points or so just to have some fun with. I've already assembled a possessed "Batman" Night Lord (hasn't everyone?) and a plastic demon prince for painting so why not do the rest? Between the possessed and mutation sprues I think I'll have everything to do what I need. I might trade for some chaos chapter shoudlerpads so I can get more of a warband feel than a traitor legion vibe. Looks like chaos is begin to grow.

Yep. I love the new direction. Except for the stupid flier and lizard thing. And the warp talons. The Raptors look awesome but the Talons look like garbage. Amazing how they got both reactions out of me with a single kit.

I think that if the models are painted right, they'll be beautiful. However I have to admit that I've seen better concepts for Chaos pop up here in our on Blogs... the Ctlhuhu one comes to mind.

I feel that Chaos now has a look that we can honestly say no other army has. It will be easy to pick out on the battlefield.

I liked the art in the codex personally. I thought it was some of the better work put out by GW

Zords for the Zord Throne:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

You're ignoring my point; being elitist over toys is, well, very stupid.

I think some of the new artwork is pretty cool.

Looks like mecha-godzilla jumped out of a lava pit onto a plane.

Yeah, it almost looks like the dragon guy is being blown up by the valkyrie and not the other way around.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
VladsImpaler, are you seriously accusing the people who play with different kinds of man-dollies of being 'immature', while you people who play with your kind of man-dollies prefer 'deep and indepth' gak? I play with your kind of dollies (horribly mutated CSM) and even I think that's stupid. Seriously, they're toys. TOYS. It's stupid to be elitist over goddamn toys.

Now, if you said, "I dislike the faction" that would be different. Like, I dislike Ultramarines. But does that mean I'm any better than the people who play as Ultramarines? No. We're still both buying overpriced man-dollies from the same company!

end rant

>Accuses me of being immature
>Uses curse words and bandies around the term "man-dollies"


you wot m8?

You're ignoring my point; being elitist over toys is, well, very stupid.

For the sake of being overly semantic, I'm being elitist over the art direction for Chaos which I don't consider to be a bad thing. Is there something wrong with wanting art that makes you actually think or conjure up other emotions than "lol dis is sewww kewwll guyz"?

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
OK I only wanted that cleared, GW is imo too scared about loosing potential money today to get serious with Chaos.

Haha, it's all good, I definitely agree with you on that.

And I share your opinion on what chaos should be, though I kind of like this guy:

I think that that is a cool photo. Not necessarily because of the stupid amount of spikes, but because of the face. That guy looks completely and utterly deranged, warped, and maniacal. He looks like a Marine that gurgles forbidden ancient rites in praise of dark, bloodthirsty gods. Not some guy who's angry because daddy ignored him.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
I think that that is a cool photo. Not necessarily because of the stupid amount of spikes, but because of the face. That guy looks completely and utterly deranged, warped, and maniacal. He looks like a Marine that gurgles forbidden ancient rites in praise of dark, bloodthirsty gods. Not some guy who's angry because daddy ignored him.

Yep I still can't say whether the spikes add to the impression or rather spoil it especialy if you start to look at them in separation

What I meant with the picture is that you can make Chaos Chaotic without everything on the guy's body and armour warped, twisted etc, that's the point about subtlety I think Ailaros made before in this thread - it might be better than evil detail overload. In fact I like both aproaches, I would love GW to make CSM sick to the point of parents leaving hobby center in disgust but the same time think that subtly warped/ crazed SM have their appeal as well, done right might serve as a contrast for the real monstrosities and visualise the gradual nature of Chaos corruption . The guy angry because daddy ignored him syndrome and spikes for the sake of spikes have to go though, full agreement on that.

 Breotan wrote:
Looks like mecha-godzilla jumped out of a lava pit onto a plane.

He may as well be playing a double necked bass while daemonettes dance around him.

I admit I like the new Chaos art direction, I love the baroque and unique visual feel. The new models however seem really unfair to chaos as a whole, if you're playing Iron Warriors you should be dancing for joy but man... there's a lot of places in the Chaos line that could use a little attention and this just isn't doing it right.

I will say I like the Heldrake even if it is a power rangers toy.

I actually like the Heldrake a lot as its armour plates are inspiredby the Decimator, but it needs a longer tail. Not sure about the Fiends and the Mutilators don't look evil, just stoned, so these will need some serious recreating. New Raptors are awesome as well.

And for these hating the design direction, the easiest way to not play with these models is not to play them. Don't like -> don't buy. Alternatively, don't like -> DIY.

With the new models I do find some issues, mostly because I enjoy practicality i.g. the Helldrake needs to land and having big wings and little legs doesnt help gobble up guardsmen; and the Mauler fiends techno-tentacles are poorly placed to sieze prey.The herpilators and derpilators also were made with poor head schemes as most posters would agree.

However, I'm mostly pleased with the new models overall. Loud, busy, and well chaotic describes thier overall new look. IMO thats how chaos should feel, upsetting and uncomfy (except slannesh).


Yes there are issues, but nothing a couple of tweaks and conversions can do

 matphat wrote:
I've only been playing for two years, and in that time I've only played Orks.
I was holding my breath, hoping that CSM would get an update and some new plastic.
Lo and behold! They did! And I don't like the art direction at all! EFF!

I really wanted to like it, but in the end all I can think is, that it looks too much like 80's and 90's cartoon toy lineups. He-Man and Power Rangers come to mind.
Anyone else think so?

I'm sad, because I wanted to start CSM, but with the new art direction, I'm disinclined.
On the plus side, I just saved several hundred dollars.

i like the new csm models however i dont like how their not MCs as far as the forgefiend and mauler go. those are clearly daemon engines more similar to the soul grinder than the defiler. same goes for the dragon. the model looks cool and the artwork in the codex of it just incinerating a valkyrie is amazing, it looks like it and the fiend engines belong in the daemons codex more than the csm codex.

power rangers??? they look like total evil or disowened badasses reaping revenge due to them being either tainted and turn to chaos or being mistreated by the emperor or the imperium.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:

power rangers??? they look like total evil or disowened badasses reaping revenge due to them being either tainted and turn to chaos or being mistreated by the emperor or the imperium.

And they can combine to form the HELLZORD!

 Fafnir wrote:

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:

power rangers??? they look like total evil or disowened badasses reaping revenge due to them being either tainted and turn to chaos or being mistreated by the emperor or the imperium.

And they can combine to form the HELLZORD!

Don't give GW any more ideas

Speaking of which, that's a conversion I'd like to see.

 SorataZ wrote:


Don't give GW any more ideas

agreed. theyve already added to many poor things as is.