As the title implies, I would like to see a clear cut view (at least on dakka) on how many people like the new codex and how many don't. People opinion on the mater have been discussed on previous threads but I would like to get a number count. I for one have voted no due to reasons listed in other threads.

Edit: For those who voted no and have ideas on how the book could have been improved I have a thread in the proposed rules section that could use imput http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481356.page

not GK, IG, Newcron power
hell not even SW power

limited options for anything other than black legion
really lacking for the fluff I want

It's better than the last book, but that's not saying much. It's a copy-paste of some fantasy rules, a couple pages worth of new units, and some rejiggering of unit options. It could have been done as a 3 page White Dwarf supplement. There's some good stuff to be fair, but Kelly whiffed it unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that had been fairly consistently asked for over the last 5 years by many chaos players through many different forums/venues/etc that simply didn't make it in, especially in regards to Terminators and Cults (as there still aren't proper Rubric/Plague/Noise/Berzerker terminators).

While overall the fluff is good, the pictures and print quality is great, as a game supplement, it's completely mediocre, and in large part suffers the same issues the previous book did (lots of Must Take/Don't Take stuff/useless options/etc), in addition to tossing in a whole lot of unnecessary Ld nerfs. While the change in Marks/Icons is a step in the right direction, it's a lame-polio-afflicted step.

For a book that should be the most varied, wild, and option filled codex in the game, it certainly doesn't live up to its promise. Better than the last book to be sure, but then, that's not exactly much of a feat.

Reading the book it felt to me that they were trying to fit it all into as few pages as possible, for a £30 book they could of atleast have given all the units there own page in the Lost and Dammed section. I also dislike that there are no new named characters.The Scions of Chaos part in my opinion was very good and showed some really nice models. They art in the book is very nice especially the Luna Wolf on page 6.

I think the book is quite a bit better than the old one, but there could have been done a lot more to improve it unit wise. I don't get the people complaining that they wanted a book that beat GK in powerlevel, because that way, we will never get closer to a balanced game.

Well, I don't have it yet but I like what I've read so far. For this, I will undust my EC army and bring it to one of the next RTTs soon.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's better than the last book, but that's not saying much. It's a copy-paste of some fantasy rules, a couple pages worth of new units, and some rejiggering of unit options. It could have been done as a 3 page White Dwarf supplement. There's some good stuff to be fair, but Kelly whiffed it unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that had been fairly consistently asked for over the last 5 years by many chaos players through many different forums/venues/etc that simply didn't make it in, especially in regards to Terminators and Cults (as there still aren't proper Rubric/Plague/Noise/Berzerker terminators).

While overall the fluff is good, the pictures and print quality is great, as a game supplement, it's completely mediocre, and in large part suffers the same issues the previous book did (lots of Must Take/Don't Take stuff/useless options/etc), in addition to tossing in a whole lot of unnecessary Ld nerfs. While the change in Marks/Icons is a step in the right direction, it's a lame-polio-afflicted step.

For a book that should be the most varied, wild, and option filled codex in the game, it certainly doesn't live up to its promise. Better than the last book to be sure, but then, that's not exactly much of a feat.

Hate to agree, but this was a big "miss" for me as well.

No Legion rules. What took ONE PAGE per legion in 3.5 is still being omitted - why? Renegades or nothing. Weak
Daemon Princes. Slightly improved statline, but MASSIVE price increase. To get the same survivability of my old cheap Khorne DP it now costs 80 points more - over 50% more. "Flying" is not that good. Even worse for nurgle players who dont get T6, or Tzeentch without a 4++. Weak.

Oh, and they dont unlock cults as troops any longer. Very, very weak. Apparently not a single DP has ever lead the remnants of a legion, according to GW. Very weak

Bezerkers - essentially an increase in points, a drop in attacks in the second round onwards, and slight benefit IF you take an icon that can get shot out. You do get to say "feth you" to eldar though.

Noise marines - weak ass salvo rule, meaning while the weapons are cheaper you havce to lose an attack in order to take them (cannot take a CCW) and they have the weakassss Salvo rule, meaning if you move youre not shooting beyond 12". Weak

Terminators - increase in points, by 2 (you will never NOT take veterans), but at least marks are reasonably priced now. Meh

Bikes - insanely cheap. 13 point per model drop in price, and marks are cheap. Only big win if you like bikes.

Land raider - went up by 10 points, for no discernible reason. Still no sign of our missing PotMS, missing for 2 books now.

Daemonic possession - why is this now a 2+ ignore stunned shaken, not ignores by default? Cannot be put on non-tanks, so you cant keep CC dreadnoughts (sorry helbrutes) going. Oh, and despite saying they dont want to put negatives in, as costing is too difficult, it RANDOMLY eats a model. So you wont see them on LR, just in case it eats your lord. Lame

Helbrutes - up by a minimum of 5, but really 10 as you no longer get a built in combi bolter. Flamers gone up by 10 points. On an av12 vehilce that, thanks to the HP rule, is STILL never getting to combat.

Oblits - absurdly, 3.5ed cheap. 76 points for true T5? Yes. Gained the heavy flamer back from 3.5, and finally have an assault cannon. Win.

Overall?

Meh. I have waited 5 years to be excited about the army that got me into 40k, and I am truly disappointed. BIG miss by PK

Even by fluff standards the codex is bad. Special characters should be imune from the spawn/daemon prince rolls on the boon table, because Abbadon turning into a gibbering chaos spawn for killing a 15pt no name sargent is totally fluffy....and cinematic.

I don't like it. I did, a bit, when I first looked through it. It has some improvements over 4th, but the more I read it the more faults and omissions and restrictions I see.

Marks sytem has improved. Two-tier system of marks + icons could have been a big win, but some of the special rules they provide are useless (poor Tzeentch).

Not all the legions can be played in a way that matches the fluff, that's the most damning flaw. Warpsmith and Dark Apostle make a welcome return, which is a big bonus for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but Night Lords and Alpha legion are now even worse off than in 4th edition codex. There is NO excuse for any style of Chaos army to be even worse portrayed now than during 4th. All it would have taken is more accesible options for Fear, Infiltrate and Jump Packs, maybe for Chosen, but alas, that was apparently too much to ask. I don't know quite why this bugs me so much, since I play Black Legion anyway, it just seems shoddy. Like they can't be bothered. And i feel a lot of sympathy for the Chaos players who want decent rules for their legions, because the past 2 Chaos books haven't done a good job of representing the full range of legions.

Emperor's Children got a kick in the teeth. You have to have ten in a squad to access blast masters, therefore making it impossible to have a well-armed unit of six Noise Marines (Slaanesh's sacred number).

It's true that Chaos now has more options available for taking demons, and traitor guard, making Word Bearers, World Eaters, Death guard, and Iron Warriors better off than before, but this is due solely to the new allies rules, NOT the new codex.

New Daemon Engines are a pointless addition, and I don't like the models. Personal taste, I know, but you are asking my opinion.

I could go on, and on, but it's a bit redundent. They only needed to do a few more things. Give slightly more powerful rules for some of the marks. Allow more special rules options for certain units. Refrain from slapping pointless restrictions on certain units. It's frustrating that they could have easily given us something better, more varied, had a perfect opportunity to but chose not to because... why? There seems to be no discernable reason.

Overall I like it.

It provides flexibility and generally at a competitive cost.

What I don't like though is a lot.
1. The purpose troops: Berzerkers, Plague Marines, 1000 sons and Emp Children are too pricey.
2. The daemon engines are boring.
3. The dragon - Hate, Hate, HATE!!! Why not a fighter at a reasonable cost?
4. No drop pods????
5. A new plastic lord but finecrap obliterators? Come on!!!

It's a good list; it fairly rebalances the parts of the old Codex that didn't make any sense, adds some cool new things, and all in all makes units people never used before pretty useful. People never used to take Raptors or Noise Marines, they've become useful; the new units look awesome and are pretty solid on the tabletop; and the flavor of the third edition Chaos book before fourth edition came along and shelved every other Chaos faction in favor of the Black Legion has returned (Cultists, useful Raptors, better Marks/Icons, Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles, et cetera). The book isn't without it's flaws (personally I would have liked a plastic Hell Blade instead of or in addition to the dragon), but it's a marked improvement over the old book.

It never occurred to me that a Special Character, like abbadon or typhus could turn into a Chaos Spawn or daemon prince. That does seem a bit silly. If Abbadon is the collective chosen one of the four gods, why let him turn into a Chaos Spawn? I have to say that that's something in the codex that I'm not fond of at all, especially with the requirement that they challenge or accept a challenge. It's a slim chance, yes, but a sacrifice of a 15 point Sergeant that I'd gladly roll the dice on.

its not bad , but rather boring to play with . kind of a sad that most of the new stuff doesnt realy get much play time , unless one starts to play 2000 points. I wish we played that more , but all marine players wants game to cap at 1500 to stop IG and necron from being good.

My feelings on it are summed up in a different thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/480732.page

But basically for me it's just kind of "meh". There's nothing that really makes me feel like I have to get it because of how cool it is, and there are a lot of missed opportunities (imo anyway) for more creativity. I'm glad that it does appear to be a balanced codex, but I was just hoping for a little more craziness. Better rules for the Dark Apostle for example. It also bothers me that so much of the list is taken up by HQ and Elites slots. This kind of forces you to play 2000 pts. to take full advantage of the new slots, and 2000pt games are super rare where I am.

So really, I won't be shelving my Chaos army, but I will not be updating it too much either. I will add in some cultists and then adjust my existing list for things that are no longer legal according to the new 'dex, but that's about it.

This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

See, that's just it though. Speaking for myself, I didn't need to see too many old options coming back, and I really didn't even want it to be 2nd ed revisited. I was just hoping for a little more out of the the things they DID include. The nice thing about the dex is that it allows me to play my existing army without too much pain in restructuring. That's a good thing. The issue for me is that there's nothing that makes me WANT to change or add to my army too much beyond what it was previously. I just felt like on the creative side of things, they could have pushed it just slightly further. Not as in making it more powerful or anything like that, but just setting it up better with the fluff. I don't know that it's necessarily outright bad, but for me, it's really not that great either.

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

If you cant make an Alpha Legion army then I'm very sorry, my brother is making one so he would be confused by your comment. 'Alpha Legion' doesn't mean everyone has to be ninjas and infiltrate. Hes allying with an outflanking Guard platoon to give him the mobility and trickyness. He is also debating using Huron to guarantee some infiltrating. Plus there is something to be said for just painting the army and setting it up.

If you cant make an Alpha Legion army then I'm very sorry, my brother is making one so he would be confused by your comment. 'Alpha Legion' doesn't mean everyone has to be ninjas and infiltrate. Hes allying with an outflanking Guard platoon to give him the mobility and trickyness. He is also debating using Huron to guarantee some infiltrating. Plus there is something to be said for just painting the army and setting it up.

And that might be my personal biggest issue with the new dex. I'm more excited about using things from my Gaurd codex than I am about anything new from my Chaos codex. For some reason that just feels wrong ...

There should be another option,

"ambivalent"

Honestly I don't particularly care for it any more or any less than the old 4th edition codex, and it really feels incredibly similar to that book as well.

looking at the big rulebook, I don't think CSM was even meant to be a stand alone codex. They seem like a book that is designed to play along side chaos daemons- or at least guard to create a truly thematic looking army.

Sure if has a lot of options if you play the "chaos rainbow" but a lot of people want to build legion specific builds, or worship a specific chaos god. In which case they will always feel extremely limited unless they ally with Chaos Daemons, to get the corresponding options from that book too.

As has been said all over, it would really have been nice to have marks unlock new wargear options to help personalize things.

so I don't like it, but I don't dislike it either. I am ambivalent.

Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Even by fluff standards the codex is bad. Special characters should be imune from the spawn/daemon prince rolls on the boon table, because Abbadon turning into a gibbering chaos spawn for killing a 15pt no name sargent is totally fluffy....and cinematic.

It *is* chaotic, though. That was always the nature of chaos in the beginning. You build your army from one of the Chaos hardbacks and then apply rolls for chaos attributes and your 400 point mega character could become a completely useless and stupid mutant combo completely beyond your control. It is what made chaos amusing to play. You never quite knew if you were going to get the "uber mutation combo" or the "sucko mutation combo". I am amused again to see it come back into play.

That was also in the day when a bloodthirster cost 1250 points and even trying to kill a lesser daemon with a shooting weapon was a very hard thing to do.

Skriker

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

If you paint the models and set them up you have made an Alpha Legion army... Tada! Or how about this, take your general and let the warlord trait roll determine what 'special' mission your going on, add some roleplaying and bring some of this to your table top. You don't need to have the rules babysit it for you. Alpha Legion is about plans within plans, bring that to your tabletop and stop looking for a handout of rules to do the heavy lifting for you.

If you want your special super secret mission to include infiltrators/outflankers then you have to take those options. It might be messy but they exist.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble. Having played and owned every incarnation of Chaos rules since Rogue Trader the only one that allowed you to do the silliness most wishlisters were wanting was that 3.5 book. Until most people realize how much of a mistake that book was there will always be these issues.

Why do most people not pine for the 3.0 book? Its boring but it was earlier rules, why isnt there 'Chaos has been ruined since 2003' comments instead of 2007? Its all goalpost moving sets of rules. Or how about the 2nd edition rules which was a horribly weak army that included one powerful character but was whipped away by shurikan catapults?

Why is it that people think Chaos hasn't been 'Chaos' since the most broken incarnation of their rules? The book you now have is golden and competetive. It wont do everything you want just like C:SM wont shoehorn every chapter idea you have in your head. You have to meet it halfway. Will Necrons or Grey Knights feel this way when they have a more deflating experience on their next book?

 Spartan089 wrote:
Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

Why? You can't play alpha legion without a bunch of special rules added just for them? In the past people picked and played their chapter based on the story of the chapter and the colors they wanted to paint and play with. Now it is all about the special rules and if they don't exist you somehow *can't* play that chapter. Really? To me this bespeaks of a lack of imagination in current players. Alpha legion has gotten more mileage since they started with the Horus Heresy series and their role there, but the only thing that an alpha legion army cannot specifically do on the tabletop is infiltrate. They are still a chaos marine legion that also still fights on the battle field too. If the legion is infiltrating a planet to bring it to compliance from the inside out there shouldn't be a major battle going on. When that fails the forces meet on the battlefield, so the legion doesn't need to be sneaky and infiltrating there specifically.

Skriker

A massive "meh."

The return of the armory seemed pointless and somewhat lazy, it's an annoyance not having the unit options on the page. Removal of the Daemon Weapons from the 4th Edition Codex seemed pointless and the Daemon Prince has revived a pointless Nerf.

Some new toys have been added, but rarely do these units make up for the fact the Codex is a mediocre one.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity. Like I said before, not in making the dex more powerful, but in making it more interesting. They could have done so much more with the Dark Apostle. Since they do seem to have intended one to use this codex in conjunction with the Demons and IG codexes, why wasn't the Dark Apostle used as more of a bridge to those? As he is written, there's no reason for him to be a HQ choice. He would have been much better off as an Elites choice. Same with the Warpsmith. Given that Demon Princes no longer lead legion armies and you now have to use your Lord or a special character to unlock the Cult units as troops, the Warpsmith is competeing in what has to be the most over-crowded HQ section of any army. It seems like it would have made more sense to have him function like the Tech Priest Engine Seer from the IG - outside the normal FOC set.

Then we got Raptors and Demon Raptors. That's two seperate entries that really could have been combined so that one became an upgrade for the other. More over-crowding and redundancy. I think there are good things as well - like the points drop for regular Marines, but over-all to me it just feels like they wanted this codex to be played at 2000pts using a dual FOC AND allies to really be complete. That's what really bothers me.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

Ummm...if you are are using Huron as a "counts as" character then it already *is* in the codex. The book can't include every possible special character for every chapter possible out there. So they give you a representative sample to achieve what you want to achieve with your army by naming them something else. This is the specific reason behind the concept of counts as with special characters in the first place. This is called the codex working as intended.

Skriker

 lazarian wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

If you paint the models and set them up you have made an Alpha Legion army... Tada! Or how about this, take your general and let the warlord trait roll determine what 'special' mission your going on, add some roleplaying and bring some of this to your table top. You don't need to have the rules babysit it for you. Alpha Legion is about plans within plans, bring that to your tabletop and stop looking for a handout of rules to do the heavy lifting for you.

If you want your special super secret mission to include infiltrators/outflankers then you have to take those options. It might be messy but they exist.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble. Having played and owned every incarnation of Chaos rules since Rogue Trader the only one that allowed you to do the silliness most wishlisters were wanting was that 3.5 book. Until most people realize how much of a mistake that book was there will always be these issues.

Why do most people not pine for the 3.0 book? Its boring but it was earlier rules, why isnt there 'Chaos has been ruined since 2003' comments instead of 2007? Its all goalpost moving sets of rules. Or how about the 2nd edition rules which was a horribly weak army that included one powerful character but was whipped away by shurikan catapults?

Why is it that people think Chaos hasn't been 'Chaos' since the most broken incarnation of their rules? The book you now have is golden and competetive. It wont do everything you want just like C:SM wont shoehorn every chapter idea you have in your head. You have to meet it halfway. Will Necrons or Grey Knights feel this way when they have a more deflating experience on their next book?

Except Necrons and GK will enjoy their codex for a few more years... not to mension many of the complaints players had about the previous renditions of those codex' were answered in the new ones. However for this one it was not case, things chaos players were asking for, for years, were ignored. Hell space wolves has more diversity than the new chaos codex. And our book is not golden nor competitive as far as I can see. More or less its the same as the last book, and that book stoped being largely competitive half way through 5th edition and we had lash prince and fearless obliterators back then which we don't even have now nor do I see anything in the book that replaces or gives us an edge in the current format.

Tycho wrote:

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity.

The point wasn't people wanted it to be broken, but that everyone wanted their favorite wish list items included and if *everyone's* wishlist items were included it would *be* broken. We can't all get what we want. You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list. Creativity is for the player to implement in their list and doesn't need a bunch of rules spelled out for creativity to exist. I find it more interesting when people work outside the box with a codex then have to have it all listed out for them before they'll do it. Having everything spelled out is about as creative and interesting as yet another khorne CSM army that only has berserkers in it. Yay... Khorne is just as happy to get skulls from those masses of troops ripped down by autocannon fire as by chopping them into little bits with CCWs. Much cooler to see "berserkers" used in a completely non-khorne related army to represent hard hitting assault troops of a different type. THAT is creativity.

Skriker

The point wasn't people wanted it to be broken, but that everyone wanted their favorite wish list items included and if *everyone's* wishlist items were included it would *be* broken. We can't all get what we want. You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list. Creativity is for the player to implement in their list and doesn't need a bunch of rules spelled out for creativity to exist. I find it more interesting when people work outside the box with a codex then have to have it all listed out for them before they'll do it. Having everything spelled out is about as creative and interesting as yet another khorne CSM army that only has berserkers in it. Yay... Khorne is just as happy to get skulls from those masses of troops ripped down by autocannon fire as by chopping them into little bits with CCWs. Much cooler to see "berserkers" used in a completely non-khorne related army to represent hard hitting assault troops of a different type. THAT is creativity.

Actually, the complaints I've seen appear to be fairly homogenous, and no, I don't think it would have caused the Codex to be broken. I actually haven't seen one single thing suggested that would have really made it broken. This was never a codex (excluding the insane 2nd ed dex and the 3rd ed dex which I know nothing about) that was going to be a Grey Knights level of stupid and I don't think there's much they could have done to push it there either.

Your point about being creative without needing specific rules is well made and well taken. I think the point here is that with this codex it seems like you HAVE to think "outside the box" to do things that probably should have been much easier than they currently are. There are just a lot of unnecessary restrictions and drawbacks that interfere with that type of thing right now. It feels like you are fighting your own codex in order to be able to do fairly simple things that have been asked for for years.

Personally thuogh, I think most of the people who are disappointed with it feel that way because it really is sooooooo similar to what we already had. Someone else mentioned this codex could almost have just been a 3/4 page White Dwarf update and that's unfortunately pretty close to accurate.

I was hoping for decent Alpha Legion options before I bought. I was not provided with these (and unsure if the rumored upgrade sprues are ever coming) so I wont be buying CSM products any time soon.

This reminds me a bit of guard players who like to whinge that the guard codex can't perfectly recreate armies from a dozen or so worlds.

Chaos Marine players seem to think that they alone have the sacred right to collect a competative army from the specific legion of their choice...nevermind that vanilla marines, guard and chaos deamons don't get this luxury, if it's even possible to create essentially 6 or so sub-codexes within the book.

It's a good 'dex, and Chaos are competative again now. I also lolled at someone complaining about flying deamon princes costing more. 6s to hit, brah. Take it from someone who's run flying circus with chaos deamons, it makes them damn hard to kill

I can't wait to get my copy. I hope it arrives today. (Stupid Columbus day being a gumment holiday and no mail...)

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I was hoping for decent Alpha Legion options before I bought. I was not provided with these (and unsure if the rumored upgrade sprues are ever coming) so I wont be buying CSM products any time soon.

"The Alpha Legion's veterans are experts in infiltration, covert operations, and manipulating events in their favor without revealing themselves or engaging in open warfare. Alpha Legionaries have been known to disguise themselves as loyalist Space Marines.[13] Their armies also contain numerous Chaos Cultists in addition to regular Chaos Space Marines"
So, you wanted the chaos codex to allow their units to disguise themselves as Space Marines?

Sounds legit to me. I hope the next guard codex allows me to have literally an unlimited number of infantrymen. It's fluffy, right? And if GW don't give me this, it just goes to show how little they care about their customer base.

 Skriker wrote:
Having everything spelled out is about as creative and interesting as yet another khorne CSM army that only has berserkers in it.

Well, at least you don't have to worry about that happening!

I think the codex is decent, and you can make quite diverse armies with it. However, there are annoyingly many missed opportunies. This book could have easily been so much better.

 Testify wrote:

Chaos Marine players seem to think that they alone have the sacred right to collect a competative army from the specific legion of their choice...nevermind that vanilla marines, guard and chaos deamons don't get this luxury, if it's even possible to create essentially 6 or so sub-codexes within the book.

It's a good 'dex, and Chaos are competative again now. I also lolled at someone complaining about flying deamon princes costing more. 6s to hit, brah. Take it from someone who's run flying circus with chaos deamons, it makes them damn hard to kill

I think you are a bit confused about what people are actually complaining about. The valid complaint isn't that chaos cannot make a competitive list out of the specific legion of their choice as you are posing, but rather that all of the god specific wargear has pretty much been removed. There are exactly 2 generic daemon weapons. In the gavdex you at least had the god specific daemon weapons. This was not replaced with more options, either. Its not that chaos players are worried about "competitve" so much as they would like a bit more to differentiate their marked lord than a tatoo. Some token wargear would have been nice.

Also people aren't complaining about Daemon Princes because they are flying, they are complaining about them because they cost an arm and a leg and live in eternal fear of Railguns and other such weaponry. Its not a big deal if you don't play against Tau, but its not fun watching your 250 points of Daemon Prince get punked by the first (twin linked) railgun shot to roll a 6. You'll notice that CD Princes have Eternal Warrior, and I'll tell you right now that my current DP model will probably be switched over to an allied Chaos Daemons Heavy Support Slot for that reason alone- the other being that pavane rocks.

You are making it sound like Chaos Space Marine Players are all just a bunch of whiners because they didn't get a codex on par with necrons. This just isn't true and its fundamentally unfair. Chaos players have some legitimate complaints about the restrictiveness of the new codex. Sure it may be competitive, but that was never what most people were complaining about in the first place.

 Testify wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I was hoping for decent Alpha Legion options before I bought. I was not provided with these (and unsure if the rumored upgrade sprues are ever coming) so I wont be buying CSM products any time soon.

"The Alpha Legion's veterans are experts in infiltration, covert operations, and manipulating events in their favor without revealing themselves or engaging in open warfare. Alpha Legionaries have been known to disguise themselves as loyalist Space Marines.[13] Their armies also contain numerous Chaos Cultists in addition to regular Chaos Space Marines"
So, you wanted the chaos codex to allow their units to disguise themselves as Space Marines?

Sounds legit to me. I hope the next guard codex allows me to have literally an unlimited number of infantrymen. It's fluffy, right? And if GW don't give me this, it just goes to show how little they care about their customer base.

There are what......six different SM codecies? Weird that I thought it would be a cool idea to differentiate between Chaos legions huh? And as a dedicated BT player I am the wrong guy to be talking to about GW caring for their customer base. Troll onward Battle Brother!

 akaean wrote:

I think you are a bit confused about what people are actually complaining about. The valid complaint isn't that chaos cannot make a competitive list out of the specific legion of their choice as you are posing, but rather that all of the god specific wargear has pretty much been removed. There are exactly 2 generic daemon weapons.

No, you are wrong; there is only one, the Black Mace.

This is one of those missed opportunities. They bring back the armoury (which is cool), but there really isn't enough stuff in it. The only daemon weapon being AP4 mace is just sad. Khorne gets the axe, which is nice, but they do not get the Collar of Khorne, possibly most iconic khornate artefact. It would have nicely compensated the lack of psychic powers, and worked well with 'deny the witch' rules.

Given that SM's get entire books just because one chapter likes jumppacks and another likes wolves, I don't understand why a book supposed to portray the mortal forces of chaos, encompassing armies far more varied and distinct than between any of the loyalist SM books, is supposed to be given a pass when it fails on that point.

It's a good 'dex, and Chaos are competative again now.

I don't know. I think it's too early to quantitatively state that they are competative now. To me, when you take into account all of the new rules in 6th, they really only read as being exactly the same level as they were towards the end of 5th. They don't appear to have gotten anything that's going to push them into a new category of competitiveness in my opinion. Most (not all mind you) of the new things are not filling new gaps. They are new ways to do things the Chaos Marines could already do in my opinion. Time will tell though, and like I said earlier, my gripes really don't have anything to do with the competitiveness.

Given that SM's get entire books just because one chapter likes jumppacks and another likes wolves, I don't understand why a book supposed to portray the mortal forces of chaos, encompassing armies far more varied and distinct than between any of the loyalist SM books, is supposed to be given a pass when it fails on that point.

Exactly.

The lack (well, dearth) of god specific wargear is disappointing, yeah. Personally I'm not a fan of the Chaos Boon table since it limits your ability to take non-mutated traitor legions. Idunno. I think it's pretty clear that GW intends for people to make free use of counts-as. Heck, I've never even had a GW store employee try to soft or hard sell me into painting up a codex specific army when I've chatted about trying out a new 'dex.

I don't recall ork players complaining much that they didn't get squiggoths and boar boyz so they could play snakebite lists.
If you want to play alpha legion, play the normal marine codex with guard allies.

I think the biggest issue with the "lack" of Alpha Legion specific pieces in that we don't know who is currently leading the Alpha Legion. Yes, Alpharius or Omegon is dead, the other still in hiding somewhere, but without a named character you don't have any recourse but to use what is in the codex.

You want strategic machinations that rely on complex plans and subterfuge? Huron Blackheart has decent rules to do that. Nothing is preventing you from painting him up like the Alpha Legion.

Also. There is a 2 page picture of an Alpha Legion army... Look at the HQ they use in that pic and let me know because my codex is at home... or this point might go somewhere lol

 Alfndrate wrote:


Also. There is a 2 page picture of an Alpha Legion army... Look at the HQ they use in that pic and let me know because my codex is at home... or this point might go somewhere lol

I see the Lord from the DV set and a Dark Apostle. Of course, this is Alpha Legion, so I'm pretty sure Omegron is the cultist, bottom row, third to the left.

I think its pretty much widely accepted that neither Primarch is dead, as every Legionairre is called "Alpharius".

Been playing Chaos Space Marines exclusively for 2+ years. Black Legion.

This codex has a couple of glaring wtfs (like the terminator wargear gaff / Abaddon not being able to join squads that bear a Mark of Chaos) but I expect these issues to be quickly FAQ'd.

I don't care that the codex isn't GK / Necron uber, I've remained competitive all throughout 5th and 6th.

What this codex did RIGHT was create a balanced, FUN and versatile list. I've never enjoyed this game more than in 6th edition and the new army rules are part of why. All of the units I love and use got a reduction in points, access to more options (Oblits + Nurgle = T5 lololol) and almost every HQ got significantly better with the exception of Daemon Princes. Even Possessed and Raptors got enough love to bring them into line and make people consider taking them again. In short, Kelly managed to tune up just about everything and make it worth taking, so now it's left for the players to use what fits their style.

+1 I love the new Chaos Space Marines

I cant vote yet my copy i preordered still has not come in yet! :(

Da Boss wrote:
I don't recall ork players complaining much that they didn't get squiggoths and boar boyz so they could play snakebite lists.
If you want to play alpha legion, play the normal marine codex with guard allies.

Oh hey, you must not have been there when the blood axe players complained for QUITE some time after their entire list was completely broken and they weren't allowed to fully infiltrate their army anymore. Same with Snake boyz after chapter approves was finally taken away.

 akaean wrote:

I think you are a bit confused about what people are actually complaining about. The valid complaint isn't that chaos cannot make a competitive list out of the specific legion of their choice as you are posing, but rather that all of the god specific wargear has pretty much been removed. There are exactly 2 generic daemon weapons. In the gavdex you at least had the god specific daemon weapons. This was not replaced with more options, either. Its not that chaos players are worried about "competitve" so much as they would like a bit more to differentiate their marked lord than a tatoo. Some token wargear would have been nice.

Dude, Chaos Lords have access to a gak load of options. Complaining about a lack of them really doesn't make sense. The items are not god-specific to prevent them being blocked 75% of the time. You can't complain about lack of variety in their effects, or that they're over/under powered.

If you really really need to have the name of your God in your wargear's name then feel free to tipex it out and write it in - it's your codex.

 akaean wrote:

Also people aren't complaining about Daemon Princes because they are flying, they are complaining about them because they cost an arm and a leg and live in eternal fear of Railguns and other such weaponry. Its not a big deal if you don't play against Tau, but its not fun watching your 250 points of Daemon Prince get punked by the first (twin linked) railgun shot to roll a 6. You'll notice that CD Princes have Eternal Warrior, and I'll tell you right now that my current DP model will probably be switched over to an allied Chaos Daemons Heavy Support Slot for that reason alone- the other being that pavane rocks.

I forgot about deamon prince losing EW. Honestly I think this is an oversight on GW's part. If it's not FAQed back in then...yeah. DPs suck. Hell a single demolisher shot could kill it.

 akaean wrote:

You are making it sound like Chaos Space Marine Players are all just a bunch of whiners because they didn't get a codex on par with necrons. This just isn't true and its fundamentally unfair. Chaos players have some legitimate complaints about the restrictiveness of the new codex. Sure it may be competitive, but that was never what most people were complaining about in the first place.

I didn't mention necrons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

There are what......six different SM codecies? Weird that I thought it would be a cool idea to differentiate between Chaos legions huh? And as a dedicated BT player I am the wrong guy to be talking to about GW caring for their customer base. Troll onward Battle Brother!

So you want specific codexes. You can't use the "GW only care about ultrasmurfs" line, then accuse me of trolling, THEN claim that you want GW to put 6 codex's worth of material into one book.

Still waiting for my copy to arrive through the post :(

Why is their no neutral button?

How many S10 shooting attacks are in the game, and how many of them can't shoot FMCs because they're blasts?

Also, didn't DPs get access to Biomancy?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How many S10 shooting attacks are in the game, and how many of them can't shoot FMCs because they're blasts?

Also, didn't DPs get access to Biomancy?

It's mainly force weapons. A 5-man Strike Squad could easily kill a DP under the current rules.

 kronk wrote:
I can't wait to get my copy. I hope it arrives today. (Stupid Columbus day being a gumment holiday and no mail...)

I hear that! Been exploring one at the local store wait for my pre-order to arrive most likely tomorrow...sigh...

Skriker

Like the new codex, looks well-written, allows for a variety of lists. Some hit and miss new units. Dragon looks gakky as hell, new characters look good. Ridiculously overpriced.

 Testify wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

There are what......six different SM codecies? Weird that I thought it would be a cool idea to differentiate between Chaos legions huh? And as a dedicated BT player I am the wrong guy to be talking to about GW caring for their customer base. Troll onward Battle Brother!

So you want specific codexes. You can't use the "GW only care about ultrasmurfs" line, then accuse me of trolling, THEN claim that you want GW to put 6 codex's worth of material into one book.

Too late, already said it. Nobody needs 6 CSM codexes. A simple HQ army-wide modifier would suffice (ala BT vows with EC). I dont give a flying crap about CSM for the most part yet I am not the first and far from the last to express this sentiment. Just sticking up for my heretical homies.

I think the new codex in itself makes rasonable replacement to the old one as its....."so pretty".

My main problems are as specified already the vanilla-ness of it, if i wanted chaplains, tech-marines and a recurring theme of one legion beng the best i would have played SM.

As it is the Chaos armoury felt like a massive waste of paper with the rules being decribed at the back, costed in the middle and some limitations put in the entries, When most of the items can only be taken by the lords and Sorcerers!

On the whole though i think we'll really have to wait till the Chaos Daemons codex is redone as if they have could synergy it could be a marketing ploy from GW.

Dislike + 1....... It's a pile of dung

 Sigvatr wrote:
Like the new codex, looks well-written, allows for a variety of lists. Some hit and miss new units. Dragon looks gakky as hell, new characters look good. Ridiculously overpriced.

What new characters, we've had the same special characters for the last 9 years....I'm not sure if thats sunk in for anybody but we've had no new special characters in nearly a decade....

Edit just one: Houron

I just looked at it; its pretty decent. Some modified IG for Alpha cultists would be dope. Ugh I dont want to put my Nids on hold...

I do like this codex because playing 20 khorne bezerkers and twenty thousand sons has just gotten stale to me.I think GW did a good job at making every game you play with them a completely unique experience. I'd also like to mention that if you think the chaos boon table hinders any model, you shouldn't play chaos. They are supposed to be the epidemy of self glorification. Their job is to give in to darl abilities and that doesn't come without consequences. Not to mention the consquences are far between anyway... How many units do you intend on killing characters in a five turn game with the same champion??? Lets be real here. The only issue I see with the codex is really just a mistake on GWs client base needs is they sought to make oblits more playable where as I just want to field one army without needing them or their useless counterparts. Don't get me wrong oblits are beyond fantastic, but thats just something I was hoping to find an abswer to in this new codex. A breath of fresh air in unit composition. Maybe a return to strong terminators was the answer they missed on. Maybe not.

All and all this codex attempts to give you variation not through build composition but fun fluff abilities that haven't drastically diminished the power of the units you already have composed thrpugh years of playing.

This is the first time I've seen a codex were I didn't have to go out and drop an additional 8mil to be competitive again on our local circuit, which completely goes against GW history of outdating gak for profit.

I do not like this codex.
Seeing T6 chaos spawn hugging cover scares me

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I do not like this codex.
Seeing T6 chaos spawn hugging cover scares me

And makes my heart smile

I will take 9 please... or maybe just 6 and 10 T6 bikers

GW made a huge hype but did not deliver.

But the guy in my local game store was right about one thing when he convinced me to buy the codex.
"The hardback will look good on your bookshelf"


Edit: Spelling...

I like the codex. The thing I like most about the codex is it's a sign of things to come. Ever since warhammer fantasy battle went into 8th edition their books went hardback the codex creep stopped and the new books have been competitive but not overpowering the previous books. The stopping of the codex creep went over well with the WHFB community, so they seem to be doing the same with 40k.

Forcemajeure wrote:
GW made a huge hype but did not deliver.

But the guy in my local game store was right about one thing when he convinced me to buy the codex.
"The hardback will look good on your bookshelf"


Edit: Spelling...

What hype? We are the ones trying to squeeze every ounce out of hearsay and rumors. The book is solid with new models, what more are you wanting aside from the aforementioned wishlisting every Chaos player wanted. The book does look nice, and if you impulse bought it without an army to go with it that is where it will stay unless you need reference. If you have a Chaos army then you got the current rules for said army.

We get it lazarian - you like the book. Can you please let others not like it. Is that difficult?


And I like the new Codex, but even I acknowledge that it's left Alpha Legion and Night Lords players completely out in the cold. There are no Legion rules, but you can pretty much fake anything from the four main Legions and from Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but not AL or NL.

I like the new book.

Every legion is playable, but not necessarily good. It just takes imagination to use other units in the dex as counts as. The use of Huron as an Alpha Legion Warlord is a fine example.

It just seems that some players wanted an easy way out with cut and paste rules for each legion. Hell, I want a Night Lords army to all have fear and night vision, but I can't. Best thing to do? Pay the 1 point that night vision is worth per model, pay for the banner that gives them fear and ask your opponents permission if you can use them.

See... not op, fluffy and not difficult to arrange.

Dakka should have a topic stating some recommended ways to use your legion in the new dex. I would welcome it, if it stopped a lot of the moaning from some players.

Overall I think the book is good. It gave me the customizability I was wanting, perhaps too much so.

But I kinda feel that I now have to break the org chart at 2kpts just to get my figures on the board.

I think if they are planning on bringing out units in WD that they can add in, some legion specific HQs from the ignored legions, allowing specific rules, would be the way to go. Alphas, Iron Warriors and Night Lords, could all get a flavourful HQ, and then let the rest of the army be fine.

Do miss Infiltrate, but since Outflank got nerfed I don't care as much.

Only think that I would have liked, would have been the option to use more than the 1 HQ, like the Space Wolves get. But maybe that's what Allies are for now.

There's definitelly some fail in there, but overall I gave it a like. (And thanks for pointing out that yes, Abbadon, etc can get spawnified... seriously... wtf?)

What I love?
Bikers are cheaper, havocs are cheaper, predators are cheaper and the maulerfiend looks like it could be scary if you have enough other big vehicles to distract your enemy long enough (which I wont personally).

What I don't love?
Defiler being almost 200 points for doing exactly what it did before. NO WAY is this justified unless to sell the fiend kits, right?
Possessed having cooler rules now, but still too expensive to be worth the effort.

Dakka should have a topic stating some recommended ways to use your legion in the new dex. I would welcome it, if it stopped a lot of the moaning from some players.

what do you mean by legions , before you hit 2k pts you cant even build 2 different lists for the undivided ones . unless you a playing a LR rush or a mauler rush and those have an auto lose against flyer builds .

The book is solid with new models, what more are you wanting aside from the aforementioned wishlisting every Chaos player wanted. The book does look nice, and if you impulse bought it without an army to go with it that is where it will stay unless you need reference. If you have a Chaos army then you got the current rules for said army.

and yet to build a good list you have to use old models . when new IG came out valks were awesome . when new necron came out first the farm was awesome and then one 6th started scyths were great. With csm you want , 3 units of troops , 2xhavocks an aegis, 2 HQs , probably some bikers with meltaguns and that is it . everything else , which includes all the new stuff , is for 2k points or larger games . ah and you need the double FoC because 1999+1 wont work . that kind of sucks for chaos players . I am happy because the dex is worse then my IG or necron and will be worse then all the dex coming in the future , but kind I do feel bad for all those chaos players who went through 5th ed with their old dex.

@HBMC

I'm curious to see your full impression of the new Codex. Are you going to do a review of this one? I'd be keen to read it. What specific things do you think have improved most? To me it seems a lot like 4th, but with some clear improvements and some clear steps backward. It's a case of 'so near and yet so far'. But maybe you can help me see more of the upsides.

Things I like :
Daemon Prince is hard to hit in close combat/shooting. I'm ok with his price hike.

Almost everything can be marked.

Typhus is a monster. I also love his Zombie troops.

t4 Cultists (I play slaanesh, but using nurge marks for counts as) represent lost and the damned again.

Allies with IG/Daemons fix holes in codex, allow cult specific armies again.

Interesting Daemon Weapons, but strange choices. Not bad, because they are all still +d6 attacks (and AP2 on a Prince), but missed opportunity to make the codex shine in my opinion.

Nurgle Bikers, Spawn, Cultists, Possessed and just about everything are very strong. Tzeentch also got some phantom buffs in that Oblits can have 4++ saves over their already valuable 2+ (in 6th), 3++ Lord/Sorcerer, 4++ Prince....

Things I don't like :

My baby costs near 200 points and only has a 5++ and the chance to recover hullpoints to show for it. If the Defiler was AV13 front at least, on par with the soulgrinder I could deal.

Daemon Princes don't enable cult units as troops. A Prince has a much "tighter" connection with their respective god than some aspiring Lord. I don't get that choice by GWS.

New Daemon engines look silly. I get what they were going for but I think the transparent attempt to include them in fantasy also made the models suffer for 40k.

Lucius is still the worst special character in the book, and mostly just for the fact he doesn't really represent Slaanesh as well as the other respective characters do to their own gods.

All in all I like the new codex, and I've played Chaos for 4 edtions now. It feels like the infamous 3.5 book, but is noticeably not broken. That's a success for me. Any outstanding problems I have with the book I can hand wave/counts as and I'm all set.

 Samus666 wrote:
I'm curious to see your full impression of the new Codex. Are you going to do a review of this one? I'd be keen to read it. What specific things do you think have improved most? To me it seems a lot like 4th, but with some clear improvements and some clear steps backward. It's a case of 'so near and yet so far'. But maybe you can help me see more of the upsides.

I do intend to do a full review. As I just got it yesterday and got the first Horus Heresy book from FW today, I might do a double review and compare the two, as the FW book does some very interesting things in how you represent Legions, something I wish the Chaos Codex (and every Codex for that matter) did.

I look forward to reading that. I think I'll have to try and get a look at the Horus Heresy book too.

 Samus666 wrote:
I look forward to reading that. I think I'll have to try and get a look at the Horus Heresy book too.

It's exquisite. It's still £20 too expensive, but it's a fantastically produced book. I've not seen one of higher quality from GW. Ever.

I like the new dex.

The core of the army came down to a more reasonable points cost, basic CSM can be anything from dirt cheap bolter platforms to marked up twin CC, Icon wielding veterans of the Heresy. HQ's got a bunch more toys to play with and made it so every chaos army in the entire world wasn't lead by two Princes.

Now people are saying "No options for Legion X" no, you don't get a specific Legion X character but you can come pretty close. Huron guarantees infiltrate, Slaaneshi Steed lords can drag a unit into an outflank, units can get fear banners, flame banners. It's not your specific Legion no, but neither do Marines get Codex: Obscure Chapter 27, and they have like 5 codicies where frankly they should only have 1 thicker one and give other people a faster than 10 year turnaround on their armies rulesets, but thats a rant for another day.

Importantly it also wasn't a complete balance clusterfudge like some of the previous books (you know who you are) which gives me hope we might actually be heading toward a more balanced ruleset, crazy I know.

Princes and Defilers got probably too pricey in terms of points, hey it's not perfect, but overall I think they did a good job on this one and I'm looking forward to making a few adjustments and getting my new and improved warband on the road again.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I like the codex. The thing I like most about the codex is it's a sign of things to come. Ever since warhammer fantasy battle went into 8th edition their books went hardback the codex creep stopped and the new books have been competitive but not overpowering the previous books. The stopping of the codex creep went over well with the WHFB community, so they seem to be doing the same with 40k.

I just hope they keep it up. Definitely would like to see the overpowered books redone in a more balanced way instead of just upping the power level of everything else. I guess time will tell on that front.

Skriker

But you said it yourself others get entire codex devoted to their chapter, the chaos legions should at least get 1 page each....just one page or hell I settle for a buyable special rule. Anything better than the crap we have, the book only took steps back as the steps it took forward should have been there since the last dex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We get it lazarian - you like the book. Can you please let others not like it. Is that difficult?


And I like the new Codex, but even I acknowledge that it's left Alpha Legion and Night Lords players completely out in the cold. There are no Legion rules, but you can pretty much fake anything from the four main Legions and from Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but not AL or NL.

You can fake anything you want if you put your mind to it. How are night lords and alpha legion left out in the cold? With allies and the flexibility of the new book you can make your army look like just about anything at this stage. There were no specific bones thrown to those chapters in ANY other CSM codex version either. The CSM books have always focused on the big four (World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Death Guard) and leaving it up to the player to tweak the list of any other chapters. This is the way it has always been. Why is a lack of night lords and alpha legion chapter specific rules such a big problem now? In multiple of these threads numerous people have offered suggestions about how to effectively represent alpha legion on the table. The responses they get are of the "but I don't want to have to use X or Y to make my list, I only want to use the chaos codex exactly to do it." It isn't the fault of the codex if players can't think outside the box to realize the dream of the army they have. It can be done, if you take full advantage of the codex rules, tweak some units with "counts as", allies and your imagination, so why moan and complain that you have to do that? Just make the army the way you can.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We get it lazarian - you like the book. Can you please let others not like it. Is that difficult?


And I like the new Codex, but even I acknowledge that it's left Alpha Legion and Night Lords players completely out in the cold. There are no Legion rules, but you can pretty much fake anything from the four main Legions and from Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but not AL or NL.

You can fake anything you want if you put your mind to it. How are night lords and alpha legion left out in the cold? With allies and the flexibility of the new book you can make your army look like just about anything at this stage. There were no specific bones thrown to those chapters in ANY other CSM codex version either. The CSM books have always focused on the big four (World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Death Guard) and leaving it up to the player to tweak the list of any other chapters. This is the way it has always been. Why is a lack of night lords and alpha legion chapter specific rules such a big problem now? In multiple of these threads numerous people have offered suggestions about how to effectively represent alpha legion on the table. The responses they get are of the "but I don't want to have to use X or Y to make my list, I only want to use the chaos codex exactly to do it." It isn't the fault of the codex if players can't think outside the box to realize the dream of the army they have. It can be done, if you take full advantage of the codex rules, tweak some units with "counts as", allies and your imagination, so why moan and complain that you have to do that? Just make the army the way you can.

Skriker

Your wrong, there was a codex that represented each legion, it was called the 3.5 edition codex, each legion got their own page.

And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

*Looks at username*

*Reads CSM codex*

Yea, this aint going to work. Blood Angels counts as it is!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

Thats the funny thing they are all mad that thier codex isnt 3.5 in 6th edition that they cant see its a good codex.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

I'd argue that it matters quite a bit. The argument was that it can be done with as little as one page of rules per Legion, and uses the 3.5 'dex as evidence of this. The fact that the 3.5 edition Codex was pretty balls-to-the-walls insane serves as a good counter-argument to why such an approach to the Legion rules might not be the most optimal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

I'd argue that it matters quite a bit. The argument was that it can be done with as little as one page of rules per Legion, and uses the 3.5 'dex as evidence of this. The fact that the 3.5 edition Codex was pretty balls-to-the-walls insane serves as a good counter-argument to why such an approach to the Legion rules might not be the most optimal.

In that format, yes it was broken, however if something like 3.5 came out today it wouldnt be considering many other armies have army wide special rules and special characters that do the same thing.

I took a read through and sadly I will still be avoiding all things GW.

Things I liked:
Cultists, I can now field a more alpha army.
Obliterators split into melee/ranged & point reduction. ** I like both versions
Daemonic possession eats an embarked model & regains a hull point lost earlier.

Gripes:
Lack of Skyfire (10pts/model just to get flakk missiles, otherwise you need the dragon which I'm not a fan of)
Cult troops still overpriced.
Choices are still very black &white to me. (This is GREAT, this BLOWS)
No legion specific rules **Note I am not asking for a handout of special rules just that if loyalist marines can have SIX different codexes not to mention all the special characters for each chapter in the smurf book, then the traitor legions can have a couple pages of special rules.
I feel there is a lack of anything truly new. It feels more like a simple rehash of the old book not a re-write where as you look at how much Guard or Necrons or GK changed. **True they were a little more out of date.
$50 price tag **Yes this is an expensive hobby but I think $50 is a little absurd when WOTC can publish a similar sized, hard cover, full color and IMHO better quality book for D&D for $20-30.
Daemonic possession eats a random embarked model and no longer auto demotes stunned.
New units are a little lack luster minus cultists.

I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

I'd argue that it matters quite a bit. The argument was that it can be done with as little as one page of rules per Legion, and uses the 3.5 'dex as evidence of this. The fact that the 3.5 edition Codex was pretty balls-to-the-walls insane serves as a good counter-argument to why such an approach to the Legion rules might not be the most optimal.

The problem wasn't with having distinct Legion rules, it was the fact that tons of options were undercosted and certain things shouldn't have been allowed to work together (none of which was really related to Legion-specific aspect). That's an issue with the implementation, not an issue with the underlying concept.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

FallenAfh wrote:
I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Could be a bit of "it's better than the last POS".

Barfolomew wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:
I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Could be a bit of "it's better than the last POS".

This is a lot of it. It's hard to argue with that, it *is* better than the last book.

The only problem is that such a comparison isn't exactly high praise

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I took a read through and sadly I will still be avoiding all things GW.

Have fun! We'll be here when you get back.

So it isn't utter gak any more, it's just plain gak, am I getting this right? Here's my $50, GW, take it, take it!

On a more serious note - I loved the part where GW commissions black and white artwork, has some minimum wage guy color it in PS using layers, and then lauds it as full color. Classy. I think I'll count up the number of pictures in the codex that are colored B&W and juxtapose it against truecolor pics. I wonder what the result will be?

This is what makes it potentialy great

 schadenfreude wrote:
I like the codex. The thing I like most about the codex is it's a sign of things to come. Ever since warhammer fantasy battle went into 8th edition their books went hardback the codex creep stopped and the new books have been competitive but not overpowering the previous books. The stopping of the codex creep went over well with the WHFB community, so they seem to be doing the same with 40k.

And this is what makes it the usual crap

omgitsduane wrote:

What I don't love?
Defiler being almost 200 points for doing exactly what it did before. NO WAY is this justified unless to sell the fiend kits, right?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

Any more than any other Codex before or since?

Please...

FallenAfh wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Actualy yes, the poll numbers don't mean anything (substantial), btw if I had to vote I'd vote "yes" (like it) as the codex is good in my opinion, could be better obviously but holds a little promise for a more balanced future which counts for me. I hate nerfing for sales but that's the problem of all codieces not this particular one.

I don't know how to answer this topic because it's not specific enough.

-I like the new units and army list
-I dislike the hardcover and cost

I am eagerly awaiting the FAQ that clears up a couple of unclear rules... I also suspect at that point people will finally cease their whining because CSM will have had a few months experience under their belts.

Ironically (Tzeentch would be disappointed), Chaos players are surprisingly resistant to change. Also people have a tendency to forget that this is a casual game, not optimized for tournament play. Ork players seem to understand this, with all their randomness, but I don't know why everybody else is forgetting it. I think the majority of the outcry is coming from:
A) People who had a wishlist or particular idea that wasn't fulfilled (such as Alpha Legion fans, people who wanted Abaddon to make Chaos Terminators as troops, etc).
B) People who wanted the CSM codex to be the next over-powered and broken codex so that they could use it to WAAC.
C) Players who were already dissatisfied with 6E in general, so each subsequent codex in 6E will likely not measure up either.

Its funny how people complained about 4E CSM being nothing more than SM with spikes on them, but now that we have a decently-flavorful codex with the slightest bit of randomness thrown in (and nothing quite as potentially devastating as a raging Chaos Dreadnought) people are up in arms.

No, it is not a Ward codex, so it is not meant to break the game. It is not meant to be the new bandwagon codex for everybody to jump on and expect to win tournaments with. It is the start of a bright new future: a future of 6E Codexes that are balanced, fun, and make for memorable gaming experiences. I can't wait for the first time my Abaddon model gets replaced by a Spawn. It'll be hilarious.

I don't like it, but don't hate it either. Feels lazy and bland. For an update that only comes by every 6+ years, it fails on both fronts: of reimagining the army's concept in a competitive, interesting form and in making the old stuff cool.

It says a lot that the likely tournament build to emerge from this is probably going to Nurgle Epidemius+Typhus...same as before the book came out. Not saying we should demand cheese, but when the core concepts are so unchanged that no snazzy new weapon comes out, that says something.

That said, I like some things a lot. The special characters all shine as far as I'm concerned: fluffy, fun and solid. The idea of combining marks and Icons is cool, as if the rewards for winning challenges (though it being mandatory is a big bummer). There's a lot of flexibility and fiddling around possible.

As for people saying this is the start of a saner, more level era for Codex-writing...please do wait for the next Ward book before breaking that arm patting yourself on the back, folks. You may be glad you did.

I really think its a nice balance between having options and keeping it lean.

It reminds me of the update to 4E tau and 4E Eldar, lazy.

Sephyr wrote:As for people saying this is the start of a saner, more level era for Codex-writing...please do wait for the next Ward book before breaking that arm patting yourself on the back, folks. You may be glad you did.

People have been saying this about Fantasy ABs for 2yrs now and they've been wrong. Maybe people should finally accept that GW are doing their best and it is working and that needlessly nating on them for the sake of it isn't going to achieve anything.

I'm torn, I played against the new Chaos Dex and he focused on getting the torrent flamers, allied guard, and Helldrakes/Vendettas.

I was playing as Wolves, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my Quad Gun, None of my shots were connecting, and once he cracked all my rhinos and nuked my long fangs with the flyers, I was hosed.

Granted, next time we meet, I'll have a Skyshield, so eff those flyers, but anyone thinking of running a foot list outside of Terminators better think again if Heldrakes take off and anti-air is still a limited commodity.

TheKbob wrote:
I'm torn, I played against the new Chaos Dex and he focused on getting the torrent flamers, allied guard, and Helldrakes/Vendettas.

I was playing as Wolves, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my Quad Gun, None of my shots were connecting, and once he cracked all my rhinos and nuked my long fangs with the flyers, I was hosed.

Granted, next time we meet, I'll have a Skyshield, so eff those flyers, but anyone thinking of running a foot list outside of Terminators better think again if Heldrakes take off and anti-air is still a limited commodity.

How are you 'torn' after one game where your dice luck went completely against you?

I mean, that could happen in your first game against a Tyranid player, but you'd be hard pressed saying you're torn on saying the book was too powerful.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I am eagerly awaiting the FAQ that clears up a couple of unclear rules... I also suspect at that point people will finally cease their whining because CSM will have had a few months experience under their belts.

Ironically (Tzeentch would be disappointed), Chaos players are surprisingly resistant to change. Also people have a tendency to forget that this is a casual game, not optimized for tournament play. Ork players seem to understand this, with all their randomness, but I don't know why everybody else is forgetting it. I think the majority of the outcry is coming from:
A) People who had a wishlist or particular idea that wasn't fulfilled (such as Alpha Legion fans, people who wanted Abaddon to make Chaos Terminators as troops, etc).
B) People who wanted the CSM codex to be the next over-powered and broken codex so that they could use it to WAAC.
C) Players who were already dissatisfied with 6E in general, so each subsequent codex in 6E will likely not measure up either.

Its funny how people complained about 4E CSM being nothing more than SM with spikes on them, but now that we have a decently-flavorful codex with the slightest bit of randomness thrown in (and nothing quite as potentially devastating as a raging Chaos Dreadnought) people are up in arms.

No, it is not a Ward codex, so it is not meant to break the game. It is not meant to be the new bandwagon codex for everybody to jump on and expect to win tournaments with. It is the start of a bright new future: a future of 6E Codexes that are balanced, fun, and make for memorable gaming experiences. I can't wait for the first time my Abaddon model gets replaced by a Spawn. It'll be hilarious.

Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I get the impression a lot of people "like" it because it is a fairly weak codex with no surprises or undercosted units. Remember there are a lot more people playing against the codex than there are people using it.

If I played GK, Necrons, Guard, Space wolves, Blood Angels, etc I'd "like" it too. One more codex you won't have to worry much about. It will slide right down the competition level to meet up with tyranids and sisters of battle.

 Skriker wrote:
You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list.

Or don't even use the entries in the list. Howsabout this for creative? If you want to play Alpha Legion use C:IG or C:GK with SM allies and "counts as".

I said it when the last codex was released and I'll say it again. If you have to resort to "counts as" in order to use the army your codex is supposed to represent... it's time to move on to a more suitable codex. Really, what is there in the Chaos codex that makes it any more representative of Alpha Legion than the GK codex? Other than the name on the tin?

Puscifer wrote:
I like the new book.

Every legion is playable, but not necessarily good. It just takes imagination to use other units in the dex as counts as. The use of Huron as an Alpha Legion Warlord is a fine example.

It just seems that some players wanted an easy way out with cut and paste rules for each legion. Hell, I want a Night Lords army to all have fear and night vision, but I can't. Best thing to do? Pay the 1 point that night vision is worth per model, pay for the banner that gives them fear and ask your opponents permission if you can use them.

See... not op, fluffy and not difficult to arrange.

Dakka should have a topic stating some recommended ways to use your legion in the new dex. I would welcome it, if it stopped a lot of the moaning from some players.

Or stop trying to use the new dex. If they didn't include rules for your army just find a codex that did. Why Chaos legion players feel they have to use Codex: Chaos Space Marines to represent their Chaos Space Marines when clearly the codex was in no way designed to do so is beyond me. GW puts out so many loyalists codices it's hard not to stumble upon one which better represents your MEq faction of choice.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I think its pretty much widely accepted that neither Primarch is dead, as every Legionairre is called "Alpharius".

Old fluff. I heard that after the retconn all Alpha Legionaires are now called "Abaddon".

 Testify wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

There are what......six different SM codecies? Weird that I thought it would be a cool idea to differentiate between Chaos legions huh? And as a dedicated BT player I am the wrong guy to be talking to about GW caring for their customer base. Troll onward Battle Brother!

So you want specific codexes. You can't use the "GW only care about ultrasmurfs" line, then accuse me of trolling, THEN claim that you want GW to put 6 codex's worth of material into one book.

If they somehow manage to fill 6 books with 1 codex's worth of material why can't they work it the other way?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

I'd argue that it matters quite a bit. The argument was that it can be done with as little as one page of rules per Legion, and uses the 3.5 'dex as evidence of this. The fact that the 3.5 edition Codex was pretty balls-to-the-walls insane serves as a good counter-argument to why such an approach to the Legion rules might not be the most optimal.

They could have covered ALL the legions in a little box that took up a quarter page.

Any unit with the "Veterans of the Long War" special rule may take one of the following options:

In Midnight Clad: unit gains Fear and Night Vision
The Iron Within: unit gains Tank Hunters, need not accept challenges
The Chosen Sons: unit gains Zealot if within 12" of a Dark Apostle
We Are Legion: exchange aspiring champion for a normal squad member, unit gains Infiltrate

So broken.

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have.

Thar she blows.

 lazarian wrote:

Forcemajeure wrote:
GW made a huge hype but did not deliver.

But the guy in my local game store was right about one thing when he convinced me to buy the codex.
"The hardback will look good on your bookshelf"


Edit: Spelling...

What hype? We are the ones trying to squeeze every ounce out of hearsay and rumors. The book is solid with new models, what more are you wanting aside from the aforementioned wishlisting every Chaos player wanted. The book does look nice, and if you impulse bought it without an army to go with it that is where it will stay unless you need reference. If you have a Chaos army then you got the current rules for said army.

You don't follow White Dwarf Daily do you? It is my primary source of information, as rumors is nothing more than rumors. I seldom browse through Dakka and spends most of my "warhammer-internet-time" on a forum in Swedish. GW fed us with updates about the new Chaos for weeks. How fun it would be, how you could take the legions to battle against the imperium and how; and i quote "this is the codex you ALL [my capslock] have been waiting for"

The book wasn't bought on impulse. I've waited for a reason to start a Thousand sons army for years. And it would be nice to have a codex on release day for once. I preordered it, a bit sceptical I admit ("buy a pig in a bag") but a preorder none the less. Whiteout comparing details with other codex publications, but IG, SM and Orks got solid works that you could play with. All the choices wasn't competitive: But you could still use them. The choices was yours to make. (The comparison to IG, SM and orks was made as those are the other armies I use and have experience with)

And please, is it possible to criticize a codex without being accused of whishlisting on this forum?

Tycho wrote:

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity. Like I said before, not in making the dex more powerful, but in making it more interesting. They could have done so much more with the Dark Apostle. Since they do seem to have intended one to use this codex in conjunction with the Demons and IG codexes, why wasn't the Dark Apostle used as more of a bridge to those? As he is written, there's no reason for him to be a HQ choice. He would have been much better off as an Elites choice. Same with the Warpsmith. Given that Demon Princes no longer lead legion armies and you now have to use your Lord or a special character to unlock the Cult units as troops, the Warpsmith is competeing in what has to be the most over-crowded HQ section of any army. It seems like it would have made more sense to have him function like the Tech Priest Engine Seer from the IG - outside the normal FOC set.

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

I started up chaos in 2008 to do horde-marines. This book is indeed what I wanted.

EDIT
horde, not hoard

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

These are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for. None of that would cause the army to be "broken", and I don't think any of it is too out of line or far fetched either. I would just like to be able to take advantage of what my army has to offer without 2000pts, a double FOC AND allies. I'm hoping this isn't a
trend for future codexes (needing to play a full 2000 to get the new toys AND a playable army).

I really feel for tyranid players, we are in pretty much the same boat now, except they can actually build more fluffy lists.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

Actually this is standard for the internet. Generally the folks who are happy with something don't feel the need to make endless posts about that fact. Meanwhile those with an axe to grind and who hate something can't stop making endless posts about it. The poll results are unsurprising within the context of the internet.

Skriker

Ok I'll put my nurglings down for this and come out with some brutal honesty...I don't much like this sort of poll. Who cares who likes it and who doesn't? It only starts a big ass whining war between players.
Here's something, how about read it, realise how much more you're being given in this version, then adapt it to your play style and then enjoy it!

If you say you don't like it then you obviously haven't played it enough to make alterations to your armies in which to make it more effective, and tbh if you don't like it, stop playing chaos and move to something else and stop moaning!

Now here's my simple opinion as thats what this threads about, I LIKE the new book, its nice to have a full-colour hardback as your reference, I also like the pull-out reference sheet at the back so Kudos to GW for that handy little thing. Ok so I don't particulaly like that they increased Defiler points to 195 basic but ya know what? We did get away with cheap armour 12 LARGE BLAST destroyers for quite some time people so just take it on the chin.

And personally for me? I love being able to take Plague Zombies into the battle field, because that 100 points I've been saved by the new codex, just let me buy 2 squads of 10 zombies so my Nurgle army is looking pretty good right now

Rot in pieces

GalePrime aka Nurgle Command

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems

That is all

 Exergy wrote:
count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

I have to admit that I would like to see options for HQ like in Fantasy, with Lords and then lesser characters, or as in the Daemons Codex, where the big boys take a full HQ slot and the not so big boys each take half a slot. Would add a lot more flexibility to the HQ side of equation for each force. Nowadays the low level captain takes up the same size force org chart as the chapter master does.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems

That is all

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:


Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

"So you're pissed because some guy sideswiped your car and insurance refused to cover it on a technicality, busting your budget for this month. right? You entitled whiner! At this exact moment there are bangladeshi children gasping their last agony-wracked breath with FLIES in their eyes, wishing they could be in your shoes!"

Ah, perspective.

Skriker wrote:

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

It means it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand and does nothing to advance the conversation and is instead seeking to deflect it and discredit the other party when relevant arguments are exhausted.

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

It is is in fact a strawman, there's nothing else really needed to say, as the strawman is irrelevant and engaging it does nothing to advance the conversation.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Skriker wrote:

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

It means it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand and does nothing to advance the conversation and is instead seeking to deflect it and discredit the other party when relevant arguments are exhausted.

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

It is is in fact a strawman, there's nothing else really needed to say, as the strawman is irrelevant and engaging it does nothing to advance the conversation.

Pretty much this in that response, why engage a full out and out strawman post, it's like responding to a troll post, you post what it is and move on.

Ok, Im gonna try and bring this thread back on track. It's sort of going on a tangent.

I was unimpressed with the codex at first, and still am a little, but I am coming around to it. I, like many, thought some of the units were priced really strangely but I'm realizing that things aren't quite what they seem. I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies are VERY common.

Well if the Chaos player whines on forums about how underpowered his codex is compared to the other ones, he'll never get to play a game so we'll never know for sure.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

I realize what you're saying and admit that CSM are at the bottom ofthe list at the moment, but this argument isn't entirely fair either. Most people are concerned more about the codex's lack of playable fluff, so I doubt they are facing these types of lists on a regular basis.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

All of your lists are different. What competitive players want is a codex that can build balanced and competitive lists for all comers. The above non-CSM lists are all competitive all comers lists. The new CSM dex has no obvious all comers builds (at the moment) without fielding allies (Epedimius, etc). I don't think it's unreasonable at all to expect a codex to produce a strong all comers list. By the way, I do think ours can with a bit of work and thought.

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

I'm wondering very much how exactly the Thousand Sons+cultists would crush a Coteas list. Likewise, how Forgefiends and Plague Marines are somehow scything a Necron Airforce from the skies. SW armies aren't much behind in terms of CC with cheaper units and way more firepower than the Chosen+Zerkers force, and Noise Marines kill Air Mech...how? Unless they're just starting with literally nothing on the table and auto-lose.

These are also all wildly different lists, entirely different armies as a matte of fact. Making decent, varied all-comers lists to engage these foes isn't really possible, even if it is by doing what you suggest, that's literally collecting 4 different armies which those foes don't have to do.

 iron_freak220 wrote:
Ok, Im gonna try and bring this thread back on track. It's sort of going on a tangent.

I was unimpressed with the codex at first, and still am a little, but I am coming around to it. I, like many, thought some of the units were priced really strangely but I'm realizing that things aren't quite what they seem. I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

This is one of the more well thought out posts in this thread. I've been helping a friend of mine who has gotten back into 40K and is playing Chaos Marines, and I've built a couple of lists with the new book and got to see it in action. I can say, without a doubt, that this codex is an improvement over the previous one. The problem is, folks keep looking at each unit in a vacuum, and this never ends well. This codex is built for a degree of synergy that alot of players just aren't comfortable with. If you march your Khorne Berzerkers or Defiler at the head of the army with little support, they will die and you will feel they are overpriced. But if you put some thought into it, you can get alot of mileage out of those same units.

For example, the Chaos Rhino suffers from the same problems regular loyalist Rhinos suffer from, the lack of the Assault Vehicle rule. But at 35 points, its still a huge bargain. Throw a dirge caster on that thing and run some supporting vehicles with it, and your Khorne Berzerkers will do some damage. The list I wrote for my buddy included 3 rhinos, all with dirge casters, and they caused all sorts of havok to his opponents battle line. Your units will get shot, the trick is to give your opponent many targets and force him to split his fire, or if he concentrates his fire on one unit, another unit steps in and makes him pay. Nurgle Bikers are great for this, as they are hard to kill, can really do some damage on the charge, and are dirt cheap. A rhino full of Plague Marines will also give your opponent some pause. Heck, deepstrike some terminators in to support those units that disembarked on turn two, just a few of them is all it takes and they tend to draw alot of fire. The point is, no one unit should be looked at and judged in a vacuum, as how they interact with the other units makes all the difference.

Are there some useless units? Most likely there will be a few units that never get used, such as Mutilators (seriously, were these even necessary? Didn't Oblits have the ability in 3rd to generate close combat weapons to begin with?). Mutilators are overpriced and just don't look like they have any place in the army, as there's really not much need for a small, slow, expensive close combat unit that can't be easily transported. I guess one could stick them behind a blob of cultists and slowly make your way across the battlefield, or even run them with a dreadnau...., er, uh, Helbrute or two. Could be interesting to see how either of those tactics works.

My only real problem with this codex is the dump that got taken on Tzeentch. Not so much the Thousand Sons, as they really are the same as they were before and that was pretty decent (not great, but decent for their purpose), but the regular marines that rely on the Mark and Icon. Reducing the invul save to 6+ was a bit harsh. Better to have raised the price a point or two and give back the 5+. Heck, make a unit with the mark gain the use of a single psychic power (even preselected), anything that would have made the Mark of Tzeentch more desirable than what it is now. I foresee the sharp decline of Tzeentch armies coming very soon, which is a shame because I have always felt that Tzeentch was one of the more interesting Chaos lords.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

I'm wondering very much how exactly the Thousand Sons+cultists would crush a Coteas list. Likewise, how Forgefiends and Plague Marines are somehow scything a Necron Airforce from the skies. SW armies aren't much behind in terms of CC with cheaper units and way more firepower than the Chosen+Zerkers force, and Noise Marines kill Air Mech...how? Unless they're just starting with literally nothing on the table and auto-lose.

These are also all wildly different lists, entirely different armies as a matte of fact. Making decent, varied all-comers lists to engage these foes isn't really possible, even if it is by doing what you suggest, that's literally collecting 4 different armies which those foes don't have to do.

I am talking about games I have seen played by different players and your wildly different army argument holds no water, as all armies listed were wildly different as well.

Noise marines are great against Airforce lists. Take Ahriman and infiltrate Noisemarines 18 inches away from your enemies few ground troops and kill them. 30 Shots that ignore cover on turn one will decimate any IG ground troops. If they are in tanks, you got your forgefiend(s) to bust those open. The same goes for the Necron lists.

Zerkers, Helldrakes and Noisemarines tear Greyhunters to shreds. Coteaz lists are not unbeatable with any of those lists and will give any army a run for their money. That is the reason they are one of the top lists for tournaments, but they can be beat.

Mohoc wrote:

I am talking about games I have seen played by different players and your wildly different army argument holds no water, as all armies listed were wildly different as well.

yes they're wildly different opponents, the issue is that you shouldn't need to build 4 different armies to effectively combat them is the point, as those builds generally are capable of engaging each other.

Noise marines are great against Airforce lists. Take Ahriman and infiltrate Noisemarines 18 inches away from your enemies few ground troops and kill them. 30 Shots that ignore cover on turn one will decimate any IG ground troops. If they are in tanks, you got your forgefiend(s) to bust those open.

This relies on a whole lot of luck and situational variables, aside from turning off a lot of players for obvious background reasons. You have to get enough infilitrating units (remember, it's a random number) up to make it matter, and they have to have few enough units to easily be engaged. Forgefiends are good, but not foolproof, they're not going to each kill an AV12 tank by themselves, a couple cheap tanks or something more than the minimum number of units in a single infantry platoon is all they'd really need to weather a turn of fire most likely, especially if Night Fight comes into play (50% of the time). Both IG and Necrons can put enough stuff on the field to survive that little trick and still have tons of flyers to overwhelm the AA abilities of an army like that. It's not something that'd ever work twice against a capable opponent. Emperor help you if they slap an LRBT or 2 in the corner while they wait for the flyer-horde to come on after you've infiltrated up and all you've got to engage it at range is S8 guns.
.

Zerkers, Helldrakes and Noisemarines tear Greyhunters to shreds.

In and of themselves? yes. When matched with cheap long fangs, TWC's, Runepriests, etc, the equation swings way in the SW's favor.

Coteaz lists are not unbeatable with any of those lists and will give any army a run for their money. That is the reason they are one of the top lists for tournaments, but they can be beat.

I'm not saying they're invincible, I'm just not seeing how any of those CSM builds are particularly spectacular counters, or why we'd need to build 4 different armies for use against different opponents instead of being capable of building decent all-comers armies.

And that's my point, the codex is not capable enough of even building an all comers list to match all the most used armies in the game. God help if you try to build a mono god or theme list (if you can even manage to represent it, looking at you alpha legion).

 Spartan089 wrote:
And that's my point, the codex is not capable enough of even building an all comers list to match all the most used armies in the game. God help if you try to build a mono god or theme list (if you can even manage to represent it, looking at you alpha legion).

Chaos is probably more equipped to deal with Necrons and their airforce than any other army. Dirt cheap Havocs, lots of twin linked auto cannons, and the Heldrake are going to give flyers trouble. Heck, throw in a Forgefiend with two Hades Autocannons, and you've got an army that can effectively shred flyer heavy lists. Given that those same things are also useful against all other armies, I fail to see the problem there.

Yes, mono lists that stick rigidly to one cult troop are going to get pounded, but nowhere does it say that a Khorne army has only berzerkers. If that were the case, Khorne would never be effective in battle. When building a mono list, you don't have to take just the cult troops, nor should you. Basic marines are much improved this edition, and Chaos Havocs are dirt cheap and very effective. An army of Khorne should include all sorts of non-cult troops, such as bikers (Khorne bikers are very scary), daemon engines, and cultists.

I can't really enjoy this codex, because I am not a fan of the miniatures in the army. Only the new stuff is appealing to me, such as the models from DV, Heldrake, Forge/Mauler fiends. The rest of the line up, except for a few minis, look outdated, silly. It is just a matter of preference, but I really want to get into this codex, but I can't.

I don't want to field numerous amounts of csm's, and the alternatives, to go elite, is ok.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies are VERY common.

Your whining might gain some credibility some day if you ever bothered to compare the book to anything other than the broken 4. You could put any of the other books into that line-up instead of Chaos and you would end up with the same result. So are you going to tell us all but the broken 4 are crap and not usable? I'm guessing not, as that would take away from your endless whining of Chaos. So please, at least use a new and more valid argument; broken record and all that.

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Tycho wrote:

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

These are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for. None of that would cause the army to be "broken", and I don't think any of it is too out of line or far fetched either. I would just like to be able to take advantage of what my army has to offer without 2000pts, a double FOC AND allies. I'm hoping this isn't a
trend for future codexes (needing to play a full 2000 to get the new toys AND a playable army).

just something would have been nice. Except for the force org manipulations on chaos lords it seems every chaos HQ is an island and does not really provide much.

 iron_freak220 wrote:

I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

Sorry but you don't sound like you are coming from a competitive angle to me. Why would you ever field the overpriced defiler when you have the option of fielding it as an allied soul grinder which is more effective and now cheaper? The defiler was better at its old cost because even though it was weaker than the soul grinder, it was a little bit cheaper and had better range. Now? Its no contest.

Rhinos are horrible assault vehicles as you said. Due to the edition change you will never be able to stage a decent rhino based assault. Too many variables have changed to make it worthwhile. The game will be mostly over before you engage your first enemy unit and that is three turns of shooting you have had to weather to get there. Without drop pods or some form of turn one deepstrike chaos is S.O.L. in the assault department. The infiltration warlord power, a land raider, and bikers are the only saving grace.

What is bad about that is chaos is a very assault oriented army, much more so than ultramarines or space wolves, who both have much better options for assault transports. Chaos should be on par with blood angels when it comes to assault. The units are, but with no way to reliably deliver them they are mostly useless.

Garukadon wrote:
I can't really enjoy this codex, because I am not a fan of the miniatures in the army. Only the new stuff is appealing to me, such as the models from DV, Heldrake, Forge/Mauler fiends. The rest of the line up, except for a few minis, look outdated, silly. It is just a matter of preference, but I really want to get into this codex, but I can't.

I don't want to field numerous amounts of csm's, and the alternatives, to go elite, is ok.

Plenty of minis options out there. Heck you could even use basic space marine minis without all the spiky bits to represent your troops. One of the best aspects of chaos is the lack of a need for uniformity. You could grab a bunch of different plastic kits and combine them up in a unique way that appeals to you to represent your chaos marines. My chaos marine units are made up of: Some current plastic chaos marine models, old vintage converted fantasy chaos champion figures, converted space wolf figures, vintage chaos marine renegade figures, and so on and so on. None of my units are made up of all the same types of models. Definitely helps if you don't specifically like the look of one type of figure since you can buy that box of 10 chaos marines and have no more than 2 of them in any one unit with all the options available to you.

I do like the uniqueness of your post, though. Most folks are disliking all the new stuff and you are the opposite.

Skriker

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Do you know me out ide these forums, the meta I play in, what armies I play and at what tournaments etc? I am pretty sure you don't know me, just as I am pretty sure that your experience blogging on a no-name blog about armies translates well into actual play experience.

Skriker wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

Are you seriously complaining about people complaining?

You do realize how hypocritical this is, right?

I'm going to start, as I always do, by shaming those who won't stopping pissing and moaning about Chaos Legions. Face the facts. Special snowflame rules for Traitor Legions have never existed, and never will exist. I liked the "white whale" analogy. What you think you had in 3rd edition was nothing more than a list of suggestions for army composition and one or two rule/wargear pieces. These aren't rules. These don't make your army special. And their absence does not make your army invalid. Every single Legion can be played now. They could even be played with the last codex, although unit marking via icons wasn't ideal. With the new book, you have everything you've ever wanted, but that still isn't enough. As I said in another thread, shut up and play.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to talk about my feelings towards the new book. I'm building a Red Corsairs army. It is an old school Corsairs army of traitors and pirates (I don't like that they are actually red now, and a real thing. not a judgment, just preference). The army is build from the bones of my Blood Angels army, which I gave up on editions ago when I felt that GW wasn't providing enough model and rules support (by that, I mean that the codex was no longer in line with the most current SM codex, and thus there were compatibility issues). A big part of the army is the inclusion of marked "character" units, which turned in a specific way. For example, the army has an iconic Death Company unit, lead by a corrupt Chaplain you turned the unit to Khorne (this is where the army started).

Initially, I was bothered by the marked Cult units becoming Elites again, which meant that I couldn't field the army as intended anymore. But then I started thinking. What I was after was a collection of comrades that turned together to contrast the rest of the army, which is a ragtag band of misfits from every chapter. What I was after were marked traitor units. I realized that my Iron Hands unit, lead by a Techmarine who fell to Slaanesh over his obsession with bionics and improving his Marines, isn't actually a Noise Marine squad; it's a squad of Slaanesh marked Chaos Marines. This got me thinking about the others, and I realized that I don't need to make them Cult units. The only one that doesn't really fit are the "Thousand Sons," a unit of Ultramarines led by a Codicier Librarian who felt betrayed by the Codex Astartes and turned to radical warp theories to save his unit. Rules wise, they kind of have to be Thousand Sons Marines, but the rest don't have to be the specific marked units.

What I'm getting at is that the new codex has gotten me to think outside the box and about what I want my army to be. I find that really empowering. Other things I like are the improved options and selections that I can make. No longer are my Aspiring Champions just Marines with a power weapon or combi-weapon. No longer is my Chaos Lord just a bigger Sapce Marine.

Now, here's what I don't like. I too am very disappointed with daemon weapons. In the last 2 editions, I was developing a Chaos Lord who was less of a pirate and more on the cusp of Ruinous embrace. He was meant to be a segway from ordinary Space Marine to the Chaos powers. Sadly, daemon weapons basically don't exist now. The Murder Sword is a huge let down, the axe is a Khorne only weapon, and I haven't decided on the Black Mace (I'm a fan of swords). This is something I'm going to have to reconsider. That's about it for things I don't like. As I start playing again, I may find others, but the army is still the same, and the rules are still there.

There are a few things I don't care for though. Not that they are bad, but I am not attracted to the new vehicles. They just don't do it for me. I'm also not a fan of the Warp Talons being a separate unit from Raptors, which only really differ in wargear. Things like that, which don't seem necessary or particularly appealing for me. That said, I'm also toying with a Slaanesh army, and am loving the murder storm that are Slaanesh marked Warp Talons. 12 Init 5 Lightning Claws on jump packs? Yes please.

All in all, I'm impressed. The codex builds on the previous books (which I actually really liked) without diverting heavily or changing what worked. As I mentioned, Chaos Marines are still Chaos Marines. Nothing changed there except that we can now mark them easily. A Predator is still a Predator, and a Hellbrute is still a Dreadnought. What changed were the increased options and the refinement. Oh, and Chaos Cultists, which were always cool.

You forgot the option for "meh!"

I play biker marines, which are certainly not a top tier army, but I like them for their "coolness factor," and the fact that I don't have to paint Rhinos (seriously, the only vehicles I like are Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts).

The biggest problem I see reading through the Chaos Codex is that there is no "coolness factor." There's nothing that leaps out and says, "play me, I'm different."

It's not a terrible Codex, it's certainly better than the last one, but it doesn't sparkle. Crazy as the Space Wolf Codex is, with Space Wolves riding wolves surrounding by wolves and wielding wolf themed weapons, it does have that joie de vivre. Chaos lacks that. It's businesslike, functional, the complete opposite of what you'd expect Chaos to be like.

Even nuNecrons™ have that atmosphere of the moustache twirling, top hat and cloak wearing villain about them. The older version had the feel of an emotionless implacable foe whose sole motivation was the ending of life. Chaos, who if we invoke the Dante's imagery should be like fallen angels, eternally tormented by the light they cannot return to, lack that aura of tragic majesty/majestic tragedy in the background and don't have any distinctive feel on the tabletop either.

That said, who expects high literature in a a tabletop game anyway? *laughing at oneself*

I'm going to start, as I always do, by shaming those who won't stopping pissing and moaning about Chaos Legions. Face the facts. Special snowflame rules for Traitor Legions have never existed, and never will exist. I liked the "white whale" analogy. What you think you had in 3rd edition was nothing more than a list of suggestions for army composition and one or two rule/wargear pieces. These aren't rules. These don't make your army special. And their absence does not make your army invalid. Every single Legion can be played now. They could even be played with the last codex, although unit marking via icons wasn't ideal. With the new book, you have everything you've ever wanted, but that still isn't enough. As I said in another thread, shut up and play.

Actually it does make parts of my army invalid, my Dreadnoughts with it's replacement sonic weapons (Doom siren and Blastmaster for note) , my predators with blastmaster and sonic blasters, my Havocs ability to replace autocannons with blastmasters, my CSM's ability to replace meltaguns with doom sirens, my Terminators ability to take blastmasters, my lords equipment choices of Lash of Torment and Needle of desire.

Those special snowflake rules did exist, and it was far more than one or two rules with wargear.

Your shaming is quite weak.

Less fluff, more stuff.

That's how I'm reading it. The new units have uses - except perhaps, Warp Talons. The daemon engines are a bit limited in their use, but can be horrifyingly effective if properly supported.

And that's the strength of the new codex. An effective army will utilize multiple threats to pull apart enemy forces. A Maulerfiend blitzing tanks while accompanied by bikes to pick off infantry is a huge threat and distraction in the early game, forcing your opponent to ignore other threats. A Helldrake could run roughshod over the field if other threats exist across the field. Deep strike Oblits or hunt down more elite infantry with plasma-armed Raptors. Havoc scan safely camp and fire away.

The threats are there, but a balanced approach will work better.

This one encourages customization and creating your own fluff, and Chaos seems more capable of crazy conversions than other armies. Some people have mentioned they don't feel there is some "unique" and different build out there, but with the sheer variety available now, and the options with allies, I can't possibly imagine a CSM field with no room for creativity or invention.

the book is pants......but I have been writing some lists and just dealing with it......

I mean cmon, we all know how fluffy a massive meathshield of cultists and spawn is....followed by 2 to 3 units of CSM's and backed up by 15 havocs. All lead by a Dark Apostle and a Sorcerer......woo hoo exctiting stuff. And its even better because my guys carry a aegis defence line with them everywhere they go and woo hoo I can now collect that demon allies list I have been putting off since I first purchased lead men in 1990..

Groan and looks enviously at all the codex's mentioned above above....throws codex csm from window in disgust at being crapped on again by GW

Mohoc wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Do you know me out ide these forums, the meta I play in, what armies I play and at what tournaments etc? I am pretty sure you don't know me, just as I am pretty sure that your experience blogging on a no-name blog about armies translates well into actual play experience.

You didn't like the book and dared to hope GW actually equalize the comeptitive terrain of the game somehow. Tht's all he needs to know in order to get everything about your play style, local meta, favorite food and possibly blood type.

HOW DARE YOU NOT MEET MY PERSONAL EXPECTATIONS FOR MY PLASTIC MEN, GW!?

Not like they are individuals with their own perceptions and creative visions for a line of product that they created...

You know what they say about the dissatisfied complaining the loudest... look at the poll results. 3 to 1 think the new codex is fine. The naysayers are the most heard.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

You know what they say about the dissatisfied complaining the loudest... look at the poll results. 3 to 1 think the new codex is fine. The naysayers are the most heard.

There are 15 armies besides Chaos Space Marines.

Of course all their opponents think this is a great codex!

Why do you think most people said codex: Grey Knights was so horrible? It wasn't people playing it that said that, it was the people who had to play against it!

I like the book a lot. Lots of options and possibilities for customisation. I especially like :

- Boon of the gods
- Unit options, such as Marks and Icons and Wargear
- More lots of cool units with odd powers, allowing for extreme variety even in armies themed after a single chaos god
- Cultists
- Daemon monsters
- Dark Apostles
- Lower point costs for Lords and Sorcerers, allowing for more options

Most things I'd like less are the cost of the Defiler, the look of the Helldrake and the loss of Infiltrate for Chosen.

Edit: Oh, and my chaos spawn can now serve in my armies, like walking alongside a unit of cultists to deny an opponent a charge bonus, and to make great distraction units (I'd have thought that just making them Beasts and losing S&P would have made them good, and there you go!) They can even serve Father Nurgle and contribute to the Tally of Pestilence now. Great job!

 silence indigo wrote:
I like the book a lot. Lots of options and possibilities for customisation. I especially like :

- Boon of the gods
- Unit options, such as Marks and Icons and Wargear
- More lots of cool units with odd powers, allowing for extreme variety even in armies themed after a single chaos god
- Cultists
- Daemon monsters
- Dark Apostles
- Lower point costs for Lords and Sorcerers, allowing for more options

Most things I'd like less are the cost of the Defiler, the look of the Helldrake and the loss of Infiltrate for Chosen.

Edit: Oh, and my chaos spawn can now serve in my armies, like walking alongside a unit of cultists to deny an opponent a charge bonus, and to make great distraction units (I'd have thought that just making them Beasts and losing S&P would have made them good, and there you go!) They can even serve Father Nurgle and contribute to the Tally of Pestilence now. Great job!

Losing infiltrate for Chosen isn't a big deal. You can take Huron or Ahriman, or hope for a lucky roll on the traits, and infiltrate any infantry units, to include terminators and obliterators. No more waiting for reserve rolls and hoping for good scatter. Place those suckers where ever you want and light something up with your multi-melta turn 1.

Looks like the New codex is a resounding hit!
(if counting votes, not posts)

I'm happy with the new codex. I'm painting punch of Juggernauts to expand my army.
One for my Khorne lord and rest as count-as Spawns of Khorne.

 adhuin wrote:
Looks like the New codex is a resounding hit!
(if counting votes, not posts)

I'm happy with the new codex. I'm painting punch of Juggernauts to expand my army.
One for my Khorne lord and rest as count-as Spawns of Khorne.

Yay for your Avatar - Day of the Tentacle for the win

I like the codex. It's not perfect, but it has plenty of cool options.

In the end, it's done the GW requires of it, at least on my part: I've started rejigging my army and have spent more money on it in the past month than in the past few years.

While i don't play CSM, i do play against them. the games i played before the codex, the armies i played against were esentially the same, with a few minor differences.
Since the new dex came out, all the marine players play different armies. it may be that the optimum list has yet to be found by competitive players, but the CSM do now seem to have now what they lacked before: Variety

In the same way that C;SM, GK's and necrons have a variety of competitive builds to choose from, CSM seem to have them as well, and that in my mind is a good thing.
Nothing in the army screams 'overpowered', just as nothing screams underpowered, there don't seem to be any 'compulsory' choices aside from those dictated by the FOC.

If i have any dissapointment with the list its that the Dragonzoid looks totally out of place. but, thats a small issue.

Chaos are now, in my oppinion closer to what they should be, crazed bitter traitor marines, with hordes of cultists they can use and abuse, supported by daemonic engines of war. a stark contrast to their loyalist brothers

 Cheexsta wrote:
I like the codex. It's not perfect, but it has plenty of cool options.

In the end, it's done the GW requires of it, at least on my part: I've started rejigging my army and have spent more money on it in the past month than in the past few years.

Me too, but mostly on allied daemons. I don't know if that means the chaos space marine codex worked like it was supposed to, but it worked.

Again one if my biggest gripes is that it seemingly encourages you to use daemon allies to make up for the things the codex lacks yet it really gives you no support for them. You don't even get teleport homers.

I have not got the actual codex yet... have not painted or played for a while because I wanted to take a break from the hobby. But from the looks of reviews, tactics and the BoW Chaos week, it does look like a good codex. It may still be lacking some flavor to it, but it's better than the last one!

madtankbloke wrote:
While i don't play CSM, i do play against them. the games i played before the codex, the armies i played against were esentially the same, with a few minor differences.
Since the new dex came out, all the marine players play different armies. it may be that the optimum list has yet to be found by competitive players, but the CSM do now seem to have now what they lacked before: Variety

In the same way that C;SM, GK's and necrons have a variety of competitive builds to choose from, CSM seem to have them as well, and that in my mind is a good thing.
Nothing in the army screams 'overpowered', just as nothing screams underpowered, there don't seem to be any 'compulsory' choices aside from those dictated by the FOC.

If i have any dissapointment with the list its that the Dragonzoid looks totally out of place. but, thats a small issue.

Chaos are now, in my oppinion closer to what they should be, crazed bitter traitor marines, with hordes of cultists they can use and abuse, supported by daemonic engines of war. a stark contrast to their loyalist brothers

I just played my first game with my new 2500 point CSM army, against my friends 2500 point DE army, and still had my butt handed to me because of the CSM lack of this so called "Variety" they apparently have..

I like that they added new things to the codex, the boon table for instance, but that doesnt stop the fact that most of their units are simply flawed by design... Take the new Warp Talons for instance... There is simply NO WAY you are going to perfect a scatter within 6" of an enemy unit to use your WarpFlameStrike... Its a 1 in 3 chance your going to get it off properly and the rest is you rolling to find out your squad potentially ran into a brain-leaf-forest of instant death...

I love my CSM, but currently I'm still finding that all of their units are still god awefully expensive, and simply not on par with other units in their same catagory.

Why do I have to buy arms for my CSMs??? 2 points per model to give them a CCW when they aren't carrying anything to begin with?.... Sounds like a pretty bad battle plan to equip your death dealing warriors with a bolt pistol and send them into the fray....

Defilers are bloody expensive now, even with no upg.

Being FORCED to now take chaos spawn and bikers is rather disappointing... PLUSS our terminators got no love.... Why was our mainstay Elite simply ignored? v_v

I don't really know if it's simply because I was fighting DE, but the Heldrake didn't exactly do it's job of taking out those DE flyers =/ Everyone said these things were supposed to be godly vs other flyers, yet mind managed to fail it's Hades shots on 3 different turns to destroy those DE flyers with FlickerField =/ The forgefiends did alright, but being able to sit 24" from your target and blast them to pieces always does well I suppose =/

If anyone has any tips for a frustrated Chaos Player, PLEASE send me a few tips and tricks to help in dealing with DE v_v'' it's getting pretty annoying being shot to death by 16 poison shots coming from a Venom that managed to fit 5 models inside it... =/

firestorm_rm@hotmail.com if you would like to share some tactics with me, I would LOVE to learn a few tricks!!

Shame on you Phil Kelly for not writing a codex to keep up with the power codex's!!

Grats to you Phil Kelly for writing an excellent codex that isn't over the top!!


That being said, I really like the codex. I think it is an example as to how all the codex's should be written. A lot of options, versatility, yet unique.....but with nothing that screams overpowered.

First of all, I like the fact it is hardback, for someone like me, that is a welcomed protector and nice touch to the codices. I haven't read it, but it should be decent codex because it was done by Phil Kelly, and lastly, you may have get your butt handed to you because it is new rules and you have to yet perfect new tactics.

I think the codex is ok, the fact that special characters can turn into a DP or spawn is silly. And the point increase and no MoN for the DP is done poorly.other than those I think it's fairly well balanced (once the PZ is FAQed). I would hope that they FAQ special characters to be immune from spawn and DP rolls as well. And being a hardback is pretty cool as well.

Not impressed. I liked the prev codex better than this one actually. Who gives berserkers 1 attack? Theyre khorne berserkers. If im going to go berserk im gonna get 2 attacks in. Fluff is no bueno. Hard back is dumb when everything is digital now. Even GW knows this. No one reads these posts anyway so im gonna be honest. Weve been duped. Yea i said it. Im the customer and ive been duped. The only reason i do this is because of the community. I like to keep my hands busy to keep me from thinking.

I have to say i want to like this codex.... But i just can't... They made it feel so bland.... They blanded up the psychic powers and warlord traits and it just seems like they cut sooo much out and didn't bother replacing it or making it better... I have already given away most of my dark vengance models and have revocked myself as a chaos player (outside of fantasy that is) Maybe some people can get this army to work for them but i would definently not suggest this book to a competative player unless they like an uphill battle. I feel this codex was only meant for those who want to have fun, which is nice and we always need more people like that but i like having an army who can both be fun and competative

I'm starting to believe the poll resembles ''it's all lies they're not even square...'' or people are saying like out of sarcasm...

can someone please explain this to me ?

IT SEEMS LIKE YOU CAN NEVER CHARGE WITH NEW CODEX !

so this is the situation.

chaos marines must have a champion now.
champions of chaos must issue and accept challenges.
so if you charge with berserkers a squad of space marines, who usually must have a sarge . berserker champ will have to issue and accept challenge.
and all berserkers will loose all their attacks gained from charge on the next assault phase ?

or i dont get challenge rules ?

zagmodell wrote:
can someone please explain this to me ?

IT SEEMS LIKE YOU CAN NEVER CHARGE WITH NEW CODEX !

so this is the situation.

chaos marines must have a champion now.
champions of chaos must issue and accept challenges.
so if you charge with berserkers a squad of space marines, who usually must have a sarge . berserker champ will have to issue and accept challenge.
and all berserkers will loose all their attacks gained from charge on the next assault phase ?

or i dont get challenge rules ?

The only thing that will change is that your berserker will have to direct all of his attacks at the sarge, your other models will still slaughter the troops.

You dont get the challenge rules. You dont lose attacks unless you are charging a single model unit which is also a character

Oh thanks ) such a relief !

This is not about the CSm Codex in particluar however, I do not care for the hardback codices they are going to at all. Could not wait to get my hands on Dark Vengeance so I could get the smaller and lighter rulebook and now they take the codex and make it bulkier, heavier and much more expensive. Just a dumb idea in my opinion.

In addition, I have been playing 40K since its inception in its orginal Rogue Trader version and when they were coming out with codices for 3rd edition I think, they were running at about $15 as I recall and you could pick them all up if you felt so inclined without having to spend a ludicrous sum. I think now folks will most likely choose just to get their own codices and leave the rest alone.

I also saw that they are selling the electronic version for $.01 less which seems equally ridiculous to me. They have no printing costs involved in that format and will recoup their programming costs way before they should need to get to that price point.

They do, however, have to give 30% to Apple

Everyone forgets that, and thinks that publishing on iOS is free

 Riddick40k wrote:
I have to say i want to like this codex.... But i just can't... They made it feel so bland.... They blanded up the psychic powers and warlord traits and it just seems like they cut sooo much out and didn't bother replacing it or making it better...

Can you elaborate on what you mean? I haven't found anything missing, but I have fine-tooth-combed it. I'd like to hear more... unless it's about special Chaos Legion rules that aren't missing (because I;m tired of that). But seriously, what makes them not Chaos for you anymore?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They do, however, have to give 30% to Apple

Everyone forgets that, and thinks that publishing on iOS is free

In digital format, however, they have a much wider audience than in printed form, so they have the potential to make a lot more money if they were to lower the prices. If they cut the prices by half, how much more revenue do you think they would see generated by increased sales? I have never bought a single digital product because I feel that paying 30 dollars for a digital form of something I could be holding in my hands for 45 (indie store discounts) is too hard to justify. Now if the said codex was 15 dollars in digital form... I would buy it in addition to my hardback just to have a more-portable copy! I know a lot of fellow gamers who would likely do the same. Not to mention people who couldn't afford the codex in the first place would flock to this medium... giving them a huge boost in sales. Furthermore, since we all know codex sales = increased miniature sales, it would still be generating revenue, even if it is not in codex sales. And they would still make 10 bucks per digital copy. That's free money; no printing needed.

At least, that's how it seems to us uninformed Joes siting at home on our computers... maybe GW has market information that we don't have access to that prompted their business decisions. Guess we'll never know.

Great, great codex for casual play. Tournament players are going to complain, but I enjoy their tears, their tears are sweet to me.

While the codex does not have a lot of the jump off the page combos that others do I find it to be a good book and will be using my chaos army as my main force for the foreseeable future.

The dragon flyer is lame.
The mutilators just dont seem to be worth it and the models strike me as lame.
Possessed are still not worth it.
Other than that i am Stoked on Cultists. really like the new artifacts and the changes they made with the mark system. Overall i am happier than i was for sure.

On little over look of Typhus

Plague Zombies: "and cannot purchase options."

That means your Plague Zombies Units can only be 9 zombies + Champion, Because "~May add up to twenty-five Chaos Cultists" is and option so a Plague Zombies unit is 9 zombies + Zombies Champio


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
The dragon flyer is lame.
The mutilators just dont seem to be worth it and the models strike me as lame.
Possessed are still not worth it.
Other than that i am Stoked on Cultists. really like the new artifacts and the changes they made with the mark system. Overall i am happier than i was for sure.

Heldrake is a reincarnation of the Doomwing daemon engine fighter play, Mutilators are close combat versions of Obliterates, Forgefiends are reincarnations of slaanish hell knights, Maulerfiends are reincarnations of the Khorne daemon engines, Warp Talons are close combat versions of Raptors but are also daemons, the Helbrute/Dreadnought got less crazed and are not dangerous to field.Daemon princes were beefed up but lost eternal warrior, Warpsmith added a chaos vrs of a techmarine, and dark apostle fills in for dark priests.

Typhus' Plague Zombies have an over looked fact, and can't purchase options means can not increase unit size so stuck with 9+1 for unit size.

GoliothOnline wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
the armies i played against were esentially the same, with a few minor differences.
Since the new dex came out, all the marine players play different armies. it may be that the optimum list has yet to be found by competitive players, but the CSM do now seem to have now what they lacked before: Variety
In the same way that C;SM, GK's and necrons have a variety of competitive builds to choose from, CSM seem to have them as well, and that in my mind is a good thing.
Nothing in the army screams 'overpowered', just as nothing screams underpowered, there don't seem to be any 'compulsory' choices aside from those dictated by the FOC.
If i have any dissapointment with the list its that the Dragonzoid looks totally out of place. but, thats a small issue.
Chaos are now, in my oppinion closer to what they should be, crazed bitter traitor marines, with hordes of cultists they can use and abuse, supported by daemonic engines of war. a stark contrast to their loyalist brothers

I just played my first game with my new 2500 point CSM army, against my friends 2500 point DE army, and still had my butt handed to me because of the CSM lack of this so called "Variety" they apparently have..

I like that they added new things to the codex, the boon table for instance, but that doesnt stop the fact that most of their units are simply flawed by design... Take the new Warp Talons for instance... There is simply NO WAY you are going to perfect a scatter within 6" of an enemy unit to use your WarpFlameStrike... Its a 1 in 3 chance your going to get it off properly and the rest is you rolling to find out your squad potentially ran into a brain-leaf-forest of instant death...
I love my CSM, but currently I'm still finding that all of their units are still god awefully expensive, and simply not on par with other units in their same catagory.
Why do I have to buy arms for my CSMs??? 2 points per model to give them a CCW when they aren't carrying anything to begin with?.... Sounds like a pretty bad battle plan to equip your death dealing warriors with a bolt pistol and send them into the fray....
Defilers are bloody expensive now, even with no upg.
Being FORCED to now take chaos spawn and bikers is rather disappointing... PLUSS our terminators got no love.... Why was our mainstay Elite simply ignored? v_v
I don't really know if it's simply because I was fighting DE, but the Heldrake didn't exactly do it's job of taking out those DE flyers =/ Everyone said these things were supposed to be godly vs other flyers, yet mind managed to fail it's Hades shots on 3 different turns to destroy those DE flyers with FlickerField =/ The forgefiends did alright, but being able to sit 24" from your target and blast them to pieces always does well I suppose =/

the variety will quickly wear off. Cultists have a lot of potential but I see them quickly becoming one of two things, ultra cheap objective holders/troops for more force org or an occational bus for a fearless character. everything else will be gone.

people are using mauler fiends and forgefiends because they are new. With their rules I doubt either one of them is taken long term. In a mech list they could work, but without a razorback, stormraven, or decent land raider chaos dont do mech very well. With all of the good choices; the new bikes, autohavocs, oblitorators, spawn and cultists, being nonmech I dont see chaos being a meched up force anymore. You dont have enough rhinos/vehicles to last very long to an average opponents AT. The fiends thus wont last long enough to be worth it.

There are plenty of things that scream underpowered. Possessed and mutilators scream the loudest. Everyone hates on warp talons, they are bad, but not in the previous class of terrible. Chaos land raiders are pretty terrible, without POTMS or a decent transport capacity they are out of luck. zerkers and tsons have some fluff uses but are otherwise bad. The new HQ choices are also rather bland and overcosted. Except for chaos lords, sorcs and SC i dont expect to see much in non fluff armies.



On the overpowered side, there isnt much. Bike and spawn are too good, how too good is yet to be determined but expect lots of them in any chaos force. The brand of sayxlon(sic) is an autotake. a 25 point torrent AP3 flamer is too good before you give it to characters and allow it to show up litterally anywhere. The black mace on a DP might be some cheese. all those toughness tests could get ugly. The helldrake is awesome against armies that either dont have AA in their codex or dont take it. Few flyers can really threaten mass infantry. The doomsythe can to an extent, but it is good against against tanks heavy infantry. The razorwing has limited ammunican and scatters too much. the flamer is good against medium and light infantry all day long, which is new.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Are you seriously complaining about people complaining?

You do realize how hypocritical this is, right?

Writing a comment is not *complaining*. Get over it. I believe wholeheartedly that wasting so much energy being upset about a codex book is pointless, hence my post. Whether you like it or not it is as valid a point as any other.

As for hypocritical, chastising me for "complaining about people complaining" takes your hypocrisy to the next level beyond mine, mate.

Skriker

To get back on the topic... I'm not sure to get why Bikers with Mark of Nurgle are suddenly so impressive. Because of Instant Death immunity, or a slightly lower point cost?

I like the models (I have Nurgle 10 bikers, all conversions) but it seems they're so expensive to field out and have so little firepower that I can't really feature a use for them compared to my Plague Marines (who don't die) and my Obliterators (who destroy tanks from afar), for example. Sure, they're fast, but that much faster than a Rhino and while Toughness 6, they still can be shot by an Infantry guard's lasrifle if enough sixes are rolled on wounds... And you have about 5 IG troopers for a single bike that doesn't shoot much.

What am I missing in the new codex that suddently makes them so interesting?

Nurgle bikers are very hardy. Yes, while vulnerable to lasguns, they aren't very likely to cause lots of casualties, and even boltguns need 6's, while weapons like Autocannons will on average require as many shots to kill a Nurgle Biker as they will to kill an AV11 tank. The resiliency coupled with the speed (and a cost that's still 7ppm lower than the *basic* biker used to be) makes them very scary, it's very hard to stop them before they get where they want to go.

There were a number of things I was disappointed in, but one of the items that I liked was the way it "mimics" Chaos Fantasy with the challanges. I mentioned this in one discussion and experienced some ranting. He argued he didn't like the randomness, which I can understand, but another reason was he said "its hard to pull off".

Am I missing something? All the champion of chaos has to do is win a challenge. If you charge, your in a challenge, because you have to challenge. Chaos Marines are still marines and fairly decent, especially when you start gearing them up, like you can again. I didn't get this argument.

Anyone have any insight on this argument? My feelings are you can gear some chaos units (and leaders) towards close combat and pull this off 1-2 a game. Im I off in this assumption?

Phydox wrote:
There were a number of things I was disappointed in, but one of the items that I liked was the way it "mimics" Chaos Fantasy with the challanges. I mentioned this in one discussion and experienced some ranting. He argued he didn't like the randomness, which I can understand, but another reason was he said "its hard to pull off".

Am I missing something? All the champion of chaos has to do is win a challenge. If you charge, your in a challenge, because you have to challenge. Chaos Marines are still marines and fairly decent, especially when you start gearing them up, like you can again. I didn't get this argument.

Anyone have any insight on this argument? My feelings are you can gear some chaos units (and leaders) towards close combat and pull this off 1-2 a game. Im I off in this assumption?

For a small tax, you can also have each of your characters begin the game with a roll on the chart...

But then, this is DakkaDakka, where the sky must always be falling and GW sucks at everything.

Phydox wrote:
There were a number of things I was disappointed in, but one of the items that I liked was the way it "mimics" Chaos Fantasy with the challanges. I mentioned this in one discussion and experienced some ranting. He argued he didn't like the randomness, which I can understand, but another reason was he said "its hard to pull off".

Am I missing something? All the champion of chaos has to do is win a challenge. If you charge, your in a challenge, because you have to challenge. Chaos Marines are still marines and fairly decent, especially when you start gearing them up, like you can again. I didn't get this argument.

Anyone have any insight on this argument? My feelings are you can gear some chaos units (and leaders) towards close combat and pull this off 1-2 a game. Im I off in this assumption?

It's not really that it's hard to pull off, but that it removes an element of tactical flexibility for an uncertain payoff and Fantasy chaos has a different character to it.

In Fantasy, Chaos has a much more individualistic feel, it's a natural religion (or actually, reality) for the men of the North, and it's a natural religious devotion that they excel on the battlefield, proving their worth to their gods though personal combat. In 40k, personal combat doesn't hold as much merit, greater deeds do, and for many Chaos is a means to an end that ultimately consumes them.

Additionally, in Fantasy, Chaos characters are Character Killers, they are stronger, faster, tougher, killier and better skilled than the vast majority of their equivalents. A Chaos Warrior unit champion can match an Empire General in a test of blades, while a Chaos Lord is matched pretty much only by Ogre Tyrants and Karl Franz's magic "I kill you" hammer. The "must challenge" aspect reinforces their fluff and their role on the battlefield. In 40k, Chaos characters are basically Marines, not particularly special or different really, thus the rule reinforces nothing.

Lacking invulnerable saves means they're fodder for the first guy to turn up with a power sword.

If you spend points doing them up, then they're expensive fodder for the first guy to turn up with a power sword.

Basically the problem with challenging is the same for everyone. If you're a good assaulter, think Marine Captain with claws or claw and fist, you'll never fight another equal character, you'll just be butchering sergeants. If you're not a good assaulter, think sergeant anything, then your humble lot in life is to challenge said good characters in order to save your squad from first turn butchery. After which you're dead and the squad gets butchered anyway.

The challenge mechanism is just a fantasy tack on that just doesn't work in the 40k universe. Why bother going mano a mano, when I can just shoot you in the face?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Additionally, in Fantasy, Chaos characters are Character Killers, they are stronger, faster, tougher, killier and better skilled than the vast majority of their equivalents. A Chaos Warrior unit champion can match an Empire General in a test of blades, while a Chaos Lord is matched pretty much only by Ogre Tyrants and Karl Franz's magic "I kill you" hammer. The "must challenge" aspect reinforces their fluff and their role on the battlefield. In 40k, Chaos characters are basically Marines, not particularly special or different really, thus the rule reinforces nothing.

Disagree here Vaktathi. Chaos has always been about individual achievement and units are lead by the strongest followers of the chaos powers, even in 40k. Thus each time that aspiring champion or Lord goes into single combat, the level of his devotion to chaos and his worthiness to chaos are tested. Sure 40k characters are (thankfully these days!) a bit more balanced overall, that doesn't take away the personal nature of chaos worship. In Space marine chapters the longest serving usually end up in leadership roles, where on the chaos side is all about personal power and personal ability to enforce that leadership role, thus,but constantly charging in and challanging enemy leaders the chaos champion in 40k continues to show his suitability and authority to lead his followers. It all makes perfect sense. Not sure why you accept it fine in WFB, but somehow see it as different in 40k.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Additionally, in Fantasy, Chaos characters are Character Killers, they are stronger, faster, tougher, killier and better skilled than the vast majority of their equivalents. A Chaos Warrior unit champion can match an Empire General in a test of blades, while a Chaos Lord is matched pretty much only by Ogre Tyrants and Karl Franz's magic "I kill you" hammer. The "must challenge" aspect reinforces their fluff and their role on the battlefield. In 40k, Chaos characters are basically Marines, not particularly special or different really, thus the rule reinforces nothing.

Disagree here Vaktathi. Chaos has always been about individual achievement and units are lead by the strongest followers of the chaos powers, even in 40k. Thus each time that aspiring champion or Lord goes into single combat, the level of his devotion to chaos and his worthiness to chaos are tested. Sure 40k characters are (thankfully these days!) a bit more balanced overall, that doesn't take away the personal nature of chaos worship. In Space marine chapters the longest serving usually end up in leadership roles, where on the chaos side is all about personal power and personal ability to enforce that leadership role, thus,but constantly charging in and challanging enemy leaders the chaos champion in 40k continues to show his suitability and authority to lead his followers. It all makes perfect sense. Not sure why you accept it fine in WFB, but somehow see it as different in 40k.

Skriker

I had thought I spelled out my reasons. In 40k, while the element is present, I'm not saying it isn't, a Chaos Lord or Champion often is just as fine with bombarding his foe from orbit as gutting them himself, or just drowning him in weenies while he does something more entertaining/important, while in Fantasy this usually much less common.

And from a gameplay perspective, again, Fantasy Chaos characters are *very* powerful (and expensive) relative to their equivalents, and are very much designed as Character Killers and the rule reinforces their role on the table. A kitted Fantasy Chaos Lord has an obscene statline, they're something you throw a cannon at or try and kill through magic, almost never through combat. In 40k however, chaos characters aren't really much different from most other armies, you kill them pretty much the same way and just as easily as any other typical character, and the rule doesn't reinforce any battlefield role.

This thread is all I really need to post when I want to say how I feel about the new Codex:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/482045.page

Disappointed. I just managed to see a copy and wow is it utterly devoid of inspiration. Literally the only good thing about the entire book is the Chaos Boon Table. I love Slaves to Darkness so to see this again is fantastic. I don't understand how Phil Kelly could write such an interesting table and then just screw up everything else?
Khorne got worse which is my main army. At least I never really used Khorne Berzerkers because then I'd be really upset.

I'm sure my friends will love it though, because it's "balanced" when it reality it just sucks because everything is overpriced and underpowered for what you get. It's also more fun to play against a sucky army where all of your stuff looks good, even DA tactical marines are decently costed in comparison.

I like it personally. It's much better than the last codex. It would have been better if it included cult terminators etc like the 3.5 codex but we can't have everything.

I like this codex... I like the handling of marks and icons and how more units can use them, I like the treatment of basic chaos space marines, I like inclusion of Cultists, the emphasis on Daemon Engine Vehicles. I like how the marks and icons help to reinforce the tone setting of gods on the army... I like that the chaos god's weren't over emphasized for characters. I like the addition of Dark Apostle and Warpsmith, though the Warpsmith does beg fluffish questions since chaos already had obliterators who were suppose to have been Techmarines before they messed themselve up.,, now we have two things. Simultaneously, I didn't have a problem with Mutilators being spun off as a separate unit, but despite the obvious relation between Mutilators and Obliterators, there doesn't seem to be any explanation of that relationship... I also think there is no longer any justifiable reason these two aren't capable of forming 5 model squads. Rubric marine sorcerers should have been able to upgrade their mastery level, and noise marines shouldn't have to take 10 models to take their heavy sonic weapon. I like Berzerkers, I think they walk the line between elite and troop well. I think Defilers, despite their point costs are still worthwhile fun. I like the Warptalon concept, but the execution rules and model wise were a bit weak. I'm really enjoying Daemonic possession on my vindicator and my wall of chaos spawn became more than just wound absorbers. In the previous codex, Dreadnoughts were almost unusable... now they work, though it seems funny to make them so distinctively different visually without distinguishing their rules from loyalists.

Much of what people don't like can't be broken down into two categories... "me too" and ""x" should have been included."

The "me too" players are those that see some advantage of another codex and thinks Chaos Marines should have a similar advantage, while I see many of those things to be inequities that skew the game into power creep. I might go as far as to say they're broken, so I don't want to see Chaos broken just to keep pace, but that would imply I care more than I really do about balance.

The ""x" should be included" crowd are simply those who wanted a larger scope to this codex, which is fair. Its just that the scope and its limitations are defined by what GW can reasonably support. We got a reeasonable release with very few rereleases. Given the shift away from waved releases, I don't think GW could support releasing anything else in this codex. So GW zeroed in on a size to this book which unfortunately means leaving out anything that would insist on additional support. Particularly as GW moves away from just having rules that aren't associated with specific models. Legion specific rules being an example of this.

Legion rules would be great; I'm a big fan of seeing players with as many tools for personalizing their armies, but I don't think Legion specific rules are necessary especially in the context of a single codex. Many complain that there aren't rules for the "Legions" but I think "Veterans of the Long War" notionally represents the legionaries who've been fighting this war for that long. That's enough for me, not for others. Legion specific rules are like putting chaos under a magnifying glass, and if they were included for all the legions it'd focusing on one thing to the detriment of the other flavors of chaos. GW has said nearly 1/2 of all Chaos Space marines are renegades and not legionaries. In the context of a single book, having legion specific rules would allow these different groups which represent 1/18th of chaos marines at best relagating 50% who have little in relation to the other 50% to less than a 10th the emphasis in the codex... all the while GW's trying to push people to use the Renegades a basis for their mix and matched armies.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

I'm sure my friends will love it though, because it's "balanced" when it reality it just sucks because everything is overpriced and underpowered for what you get. It's also more fun to play against a sucky army where all of your stuff looks good, even DA tactical marines are decently costed in comparison.

Not to be cinical, but I have to wonder how many of those 'likes' actually mean "I LIKE that my IG/GK/SW/Necron army's spot on the power level scale is unchanged."

To be completely honest, I am on the fence about the new codex. It is wonderfully produced, with some cool new units, and options that are reminiscent of 4ed, but I feel like they dropped the ball on some cult units. The noise marines are denied their Blastmaster even when numbering 6 (as per fluff) and the thousand sons, being take and hold units are anything but when it comes to assault units. I am not saying that the Thousand Sons should get a CC buff, but I am saying that they should at least get the ability to stand and shoot at whatever is charging them, like every other unit in the game that doesn't have template weapons. I am also pissed that the Aspiring Sorcerer is only a mastery level 1, essentially restricting him to the three worst spells in the book... Come on Phil Kelly!

It's a disappointing book to say the least. Some of the overpricing (defiler) and outright nerfs (obliterators) are a shameless tactic to get you to buy the new magazords.

But I will still play it lol, been playing chaos since the Slaves to darkness came out and i will stick with it. I just would of liked some flavor.

 Skriker wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Additionally, in Fantasy, Chaos characters are Character Killers, they are stronger, faster, tougher, killier and better skilled than the vast majority of their equivalents. A Chaos Warrior unit champion can match an Empire General in a test of blades, while a Chaos Lord is matched pretty much only by Ogre Tyrants and Karl Franz's magic "I kill you" hammer. The "must challenge" aspect reinforces their fluff and their role on the battlefield. In 40k, Chaos characters are basically Marines, not particularly special or different really, thus the rule reinforces nothing.

Disagree here Vaktathi. Chaos has always been about individual achievement and units are lead by the strongest followers of the chaos powers, even in 40k. Thus each time that aspiring champion or Lord goes into single combat, the level of his devotion to chaos and his worthiness to chaos are tested. Sure 40k characters are (thankfully these days!) a bit more balanced overall, that doesn't take away the personal nature of chaos worship. In Space marine chapters the longest serving usually end up in leadership roles, where on the chaos side is all about personal power and personal ability to enforce that leadership role, thus,but constantly charging in and challanging enemy leaders the chaos champion in 40k continues to show his suitability and authority to lead his followers. It all makes perfect sense. Not sure why you accept it fine in WFB, but somehow see it as different in 40k.

Skriker

And that's why Chaos Lords have better statlines than Chapter Masters. Oh wait, no they don't.

Also, remember that time when Perturabo ascended to daemonhood by accepting a challenge from Rogal Dorn. Oh wait, no he did EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I like inclusion of Cultists

Even though I fully expected this to be a weaksauce Gavdex 2.0 from the beginning (I predicted that the pendulum would swing back just in time for the release of the CSM dex) I almost got my hopes up when I heard that cultists would be in the starter set. But then I look at the cultist entry and the only options they have are the ones that are physically modeled on the figs in the starter set. The champ has literally ONE weapon option and this is only to make the starter set champ WYSIWYG. I am then forced to conclude that the ONLY reason they bothered to put cultists in the CSM codex is so they could include squishy things in the starter set for the SM to kill. By the time 6th ed CSM rolls around I predict cultists will be gone. Like rain on the mountain. Like wind in the meadow. Like LatD in the EoT codex. Le sigh.

Overall, I would say it is pretty good, and I have been playing since third edition. You can make some really good lists with it.
It's not overpowered, but it's not underpowered either. The more I read it and play with lists, the more it grows on me.

It could have gone a lot further like many have mentioned, but is very playable and very cool.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Additionally, in Fantasy, Chaos characters are Character Killers, they are stronger, faster, tougher, killier and better skilled than the vast majority of their equivalents. A Chaos Warrior unit champion can match an Empire General in a test of blades, while a Chaos Lord is matched pretty much only by Ogre Tyrants and Karl Franz's magic "I kill you" hammer. The "must challenge" aspect reinforces their fluff and their role on the battlefield. In 40k, Chaos characters are basically Marines, not particularly special or different really, thus the rule reinforces nothing.

Disagree here Vaktathi. Chaos has always been about individual achievement and units are lead by the strongest followers of the chaos powers, even in 40k. Thus each time that aspiring champion or Lord goes into single combat, the level of his devotion to chaos and his worthiness to chaos are tested. Sure 40k characters are (thankfully these days!) a bit more balanced overall, that doesn't take away the personal nature of chaos worship. In Space marine chapters the longest serving usually end up in leadership roles, where on the chaos side is all about personal power and personal ability to enforce that leadership role, thus,but constantly charging in and challanging enemy leaders the chaos champion in 40k continues to show his suitability and authority to lead his followers. It all makes perfect sense. Not sure why you accept it fine in WFB, but somehow see it as different in 40k.

Skriker

And that's why Chaos Lords have better statlines than Chapter Masters. Oh wait, no they don't.

Also, remember that time when Perturabo ascended to daemonhood by accepting a challenge from Rogal Dorn. Oh wait, no he did EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I like inclusion of Cultists

Even though I fully expected this to be a weaksauce Gavdex 2.0 from the beginning (I predicted that the pendulum would swing back just in time for the release of the CSM dex) I almost got my hopes up when I heard that cultists would be in the starter set. But then I look at the cultist entry and the only options they have are the ones that are physically modeled on the figs in the starter set. The champ has literally ONE weapon option and this is only to make the starter set champ WYSIWYG. I am then forced to conclude that the ONLY reason they bothered to put cultists in the CSM codex is so they could include squishy things in the starter set for the SM to kill. By the time 6th ed CSM rolls around I predict cultists will be gone. Like rain on the mountain. Like wind in the meadow. Like LatD in the EoT codex. Le sigh.

I think you need to look at the cultists closer, and the synergy they have with the different IC's. A blob of 35 fearless cultists being led by a tooled out chaos lord or dark apostle is nasty. Combine that with the different psycic powers available, and there are some devastating combinations.
The cultists were a very intentional entry in the codex, and are very powerful if you know how to use them. The wargear options on the cultists are really a minor point. The pistol and close combat weapon is all they need.

Firstborn wrote:
I think you need to look at the cultists closer, and the synergy they have with the different IC's. A blob of 35 fearless cultists being led by a tooled out chaos lord or dark apostle is nasty. Combine that with the different psycic powers available, and there are some devastating combinations.
The cultists were a very intentional entry in the codex, and are very powerful if you know how to use them. The wargear options on the cultists are really a minor point. The pistol and close combat weapon is all they need.

Considering allies are a thing, the only advantage cultists have over an imperial guardsman is that you can have one of your ICs join the first but not the latter. I'm not saying it's a terrible advantage, but with allies being a thing there is practically no reason to field autogun cultists, as they are basically guardsmen with worse equipment.

... Wow. It really takes a lot to be worse equipped than an IG guardsman, I'm still surprised it happened. At least, for the price of a conscript, you get someone with pistol and CCW, so that's two WS 3 S3 attacks from each of your expendables!

... At I1, because no grenades lol.

Frankly, the codex is not bad, and if this really becomes the new 6th edition power level instead of a low swing on the pendulum to be duly corrected when the next iteration of Space Jocks comes around, I'm completely fine with it.

The problem is that there are parts that are just outright lazy. Tell me again for what reason I should ever take a Dark Apostle, ever? Since it is inferior to a Lord in every possible way and also more expensive? Tell me again why the Mark of Khorne needed a nerf? Tell me again why CC troops in general needed a nerf, considering 6th edition already nerfed that on its own? Tell me again why Chosen have 2 attacks base but friggin' Khorne Berzerkers have ONE? Tell me again why the cult troops of Slaanesh with their special sonic weapons are worse at firing on the move than random blokes with a cheap boltgun? Tell me again why I shouldn't shelf my sisters now that for one more point you get a space mar- Er, no, wait, that's a bit off topic.

I like chaos being chaotic, I enjoy its plethora of new options and potential synergies, I like all the fiddly options and the new weapons (we certainly could have used a really generic daemon weapon though) and I believe the codex got a massive improvement over the poor excuse of a clusterfeth it was in its last iteration. Overall, it's a good codex, but it really, really suffers from being this edition's guinea pig.

... I mean seriously, defilers at 195 points? Are you kidding me? 10 extra points for a Land Raider for zero improvements and still no PotMS-equivalent? Daemonic possession was nerfed and it still costs you a point of BS? Is this gak for real? And wait, the last and most unknown of nameless wolf lords is an eternal warrior but Lucius THE ETERNAL is not? And neither are all those blokes that have been around since the friggin' Horus Heresy (with the exception of Abby)? Oh for f-

 Mokuren wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
I think you need to look at the cultists closer, and the synergy they have with the different IC's. A blob of 35 fearless cultists being led by a tooled out chaos lord or dark apostle is nasty. Combine that with the different psycic powers available, and there are some devastating combinations.
The cultists were a very intentional entry in the codex, and are very powerful if you know how to use them. The wargear options on the cultists are really a minor point. The pistol and close combat weapon is all they need.

Considering allies are a thing, the only advantage cultists have over an imperial guardsman is that you can have one of your ICs join the first but not the latter. I'm not saying it's a terrible advantage, but with allies being a thing there is practically no reason to field autogun cultists, as they are basically guardsmen with worse equipment.

... Wow. It really takes a lot to be worse equipped than an IG guardsman, I'm still surprised it happened. At least, for the price of a conscript, you get someone with pistol and CCW, so that's two WS 3 S3 attacks from each of your expendables!

... At I1, because no grenades lol.

I look at the Chaos Daemons and the unit changes they got through White Dwarf relatively recently... I'm inclined to believe Cultists, whenever they get a separate kit will likely see a similar revised treatment, to incoporate new options.

Chaos cultists are cheaper than guardsmen, so its not like you're being short changed, but they allow you to take marks in dedication to their respective god. The marks for the most part bring them to a similar cost while making them equally or more worthwhile. That's before you even consider the plague zombie option.

Cultists probably shouldn't have to pay for their close combat weapons, but lets face it, they're largely a unit intended for the thematics. Even in the best fiction the cultists at the level of theses guys get mowed down. They're just a source of ablative wounds in an army that can otherwise run high cost units with a low total wound count.

 Mokuren wrote:

The problem is that there are parts that are just outright lazy. Tell me again for what reason I should ever take a Dark Apostle, ever? Since it is inferior to a Lord in every possible way and also more expensive?

The Dark Apostle has a Leadership bubble, so units beside the one he's in can benefit from it, unlike the Lord. He also comes standard with Fearless and Hatred, by means of the Zealot rule. So taking the Dark Apostle is about the utility of the leadership bubble, which is mostly for those wanting to field cultists or marines that haven't taken "Veterans of the Long War".

 Mokuren wrote:

Tell me again why the Mark of Khorne needed a nerf? Tell me again why CC troops in general needed a nerf, considering 6th edition already nerfed that on its own? Tell me again why Chosen have 2 attacks base but friggin' Khorne Berzerkers have ONE? Tell me again why the cult troops of Slaanesh with their special sonic weapons are worse at firing on the move than random blokes with a cheap boltgun? Tell me again why I shouldn't shelf my sisters now that for one more point you get a space mar- Er, no, wait, that's a bit off topic

I dunno if it was even said in the first place... but I'd guess the reason the Mark of Khorne was "nerfed" was some combination of wanting it to be subjectively on a similar level to the rest and also to adjust for the fact that more units have access to it now.

Chosen are basically meant as a squad of guys on the verge of being aspiring champions, while Berzerkers are just specialized line troops with dedication to a deity.

Noise marines I think are a fair price, coming with the +1I and Fearless built in. They're really just a basic tac. squad type unit that simply plays generally static. I think its interesting that the units of the deity that Khorne regards as slothful and lazy are now a unit thats seemingly designed to play a more static game. I think ignore cover makes sense, I think it makes up for the salvo rule defficiencies as well as the additional cost. I do however feel GW has spent the last 3 editions scratching their heads as to "why did we give them sonic weapons," so while they might not be the greatest I don't think we're paying more than what they're worth.

Look, SoB have many issues and those should be addressed in their book. Not the Chaos book. As to why basic CSM are cheaper, its because GW doesn't really expect too many people to use them in a barebone configuration. They expect players to upgrade them, that means they have to leave room for those additional costs. This is just simply an inherent shortfall of a system based on whole number points, SoB might nominally be 12.5pts and base line CSM 14.4pts in a perfect world but design choices impose how things are rounded.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Chaos cultists are cheaper than guardsmen, so its not like you're being short changed, but they allow you to take marks in dedication to their respective god. The marks for the most part bring them to a similar cost while making them equally or more worthwhile. That's before you even consider the plague zombie option.

It's up for debate if marks make cultists effective; IG still have better weapon access, can take orders (a very powerful thing, and free) and transports for a very good price.

 Sephyr wrote:

It's up for debate if marks make cultists effective; IG still have better weapon access, can take orders (a very powerful thing, and free) and transports for a very good price. ...

 aka_mythos wrote:

The Dark Apostle has a Leadership bubble, so units beside the one he's in can benefit from it, unlike the Lord. He also comes standard with Fearless and Hatred, by means of the Zealot rule. So taking the Dark Apostle is about the utility of the leadership bubble, which is mostly for those wanting to field cultists or marines that haven't taken "Veterans of the Long War".

There are many better ways to get the Hatred Rule. The extra Leadership is usually just an extra point per piece, making the bubble useless unless you use it for Mutilators...which no sane person will take. The CSM HQ slot is way too important to waste on someone who adds so little, and almost none of it unique; we need to unlock cult troops or get killing machines that actually maul units and win duels.

Cultists are largely ablative wounds and wouldn't do that job in a transport. They are to either absorb wounds or to largely go on ignored, neither requiring special weapons. Not everyone is going to want to play your notion of a chaos army and there are alot of people who want to field a wall of cultists because they like the idea of a mob... other will simply take a large block of cultists to fill out their troop choices with the cheapest option so they can put more points into other units.

Orders are a byproduct of the Command HQ and Platoon Commmand Squads and to that end is a synergistic attribute... Posing a fair comparison would require you to consider the inclucion in the army of HQ choices that aid Cultists. The Dark Apostle being the seemingly most specifically designed to aid cultists. I believe he conveys hatred to the cultists and is really the only way for cultists to gain a leadership bump. This is one of the main reasons to include the Dark Apostle. I think we'd agree he's a niche unit and only to be used by a handful of specific armies. Not every one plays their armies in an 'Ard Boys level of ultra-competetiveness.

Another minor point is that Veteran of the Long War only conveys Hatred (Space Marines)... The Dark Apostles is the poster child for "Hater's gonna Hate" since he conveys Hatred (everything).

 Sephyr wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Cultists probably shouldn't have to pay for their close combat weapons, but lets face it, they're largely a unit intended for the thematics. Even in the best fiction the cultists at the level of theses guys get mowed down.

Funny, because in the fluff that's pretty much what IG does! Die by the bucketload while the marines save the day. And yet in the rules they are masters of small-unit special weapons spam and aerial-armor combined warfare. Even if cultists were just fodder, there are so many better ways to work with that.

The difference is in the fluff even the IG get to mow them down. Someone compared them to conscripts and that's a far fairer starting point for comparison. They're conscripts that can be upgraded up to something bordering on being as usefull as standard guardmen.

It just needs to emphasize these are Chaos Cultists, they aren't traitors, the aren't blood pact. These guys are little more than on the level of a necromunda hive gang up until the moment they join a chaos warband, and their equipment and options reflects that.

 Sephyr wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

As to why basic CSM are cheaper, its because GW doesn't really expect too many people to use them in a barebone configuration. They expect players to upgrade them, that means they have to leave room for those additional costs.

That's a design philosophy they adhere to very infrequently then, and with suspicious timing. It would make sense if you could purchase Split Fire for Long Fangs, Psychic Pilot for GK vehicles, Warp Quake and Pyker defense for GKs, and PotMS for loyalist vehicles. Instead those things come free.

I think they've done it here because they wanted a single unit entry to represent everything from the newest Renegades to the Legionaries as well as units at varying stages of progression down the path to corruption in their favor seeking of a chaos god. Even if it wasn't done for that specific reason, in the absence of that even more people would complain that CSM aren't cost effective... Yes you heard me right some people actually believe they don't do enough... I don't understand that idea, but there you go.

 aka_mythos wrote:


Orders are a byproduct of the Command HQ and Platoon Commmand Squads and to that end is a synergistic attribute... Posing a fair comparison would require you to consider the inclucion in the army of HQ choices that aid Cultists. The Dark Apostle being the seemingly most specifically designed to aid cultists. I believe he conveys hatred to the cultists and is really the only way for cultists to gain a leadership bump. This is one of the main reasons to include the Dark Apostle. I think we'd agree he's a niche unit and only to be used by a handful of specific armies. Not every one plays their armies in an 'Ard Boys level of ultra-competetiveness.

Another minor point is that Veteran of the Long War only conveys Hatred (Space Marines)... The Dark Apostles is the poster child for "Hater's gonna Hate" since he conveys Hatred (everything).

True enough, but you mentioned Cultists in addition to both the Apostle and Typhus, so I felt the point was justified. In addition, no CSM force is getting just IG guardmen allies; you need an HQ, and the command squad is quite cost-effective. In fact, both have the advantage of not overcrowding CSM FOC slots.

As for the Apostle, he makes his unit Fearless, as does any Fearless HQ, meaning that all of them give the cultists a Leadership bump. And he is not killy enough by far to make a cultist mob a threat. So even at his niche, he's a day late and a dollar short.

Firstborn wrote:
I think you need to look at the cultists closer, and the synergy they have with the different IC's. A blob of 35 fearless cultists being led by a tooled out chaos lord or dark apostle is nasty. Combine that with the different psycic powers available, and there are some devastating combinations.
The cultists were a very intentional entry in the codex, and are very powerful if you know how to use them. The wargear options on the cultists are really a minor point. The pistol and close combat weapon is all they need.

Cultists are good ablative wounds, but what for? A tooled out Lord, that's what, a Dark Apostle is weaker and more expensive than a Lord and giving hatred to a 35 blob of guardsmen with worse armour doesn't change the fact that, well, you're giving hatred to a 35 blob of guardsmen with worse armour. They attack after most units that are actually worth a damn in CC, and with their t-shirt save they're just like ork boyz when it comes to taking overwatch in the teeth, except without the T4.

Firstborn wrote:Chaos cultists are cheaper than guardsmen, so its not like you're being short changed, but they allow you to take marks in dedication to their respective god. The marks for the most part bring them to a similar cost while making them equally or more worthwhile. That's before you even consider the plague zombie option.

Cultists probably shouldn't have to pay for their close combat weapons, but lets face it, they're largely a unit intended for the thematics. Even in the best fiction the cultists at the level of theses guys get mowed down. They're just a source of ablative wounds in an army that can otherwise run high cost units with a low total wound count.

A cultist is 1 point cheaper, per model, than an ordinary guardsman, but this doesn't account for the fact that they come with worse armour, no grenades and only one champion: every infantry squad comes with 10 models of which one is a sarge. Also, a blob of 35 is the same cost as an entire basic IG platoon, that comes with orders and better equipment: ten less models, but twice the range and much more firepower, and three times as many characters. Also, sarges come with krak grenades, can take melta bombs and power weapons and bolt pistols and plasma pistols, so if you're willing to shell more points you get something that is a lot more versatile than a cultist champion.

Cultists certainly have a place, but I'm sure it is not to make Dark Apostles shine, they're just cheap objective sitters and lone HQ escort.

Firstborn wrote:I dunno if it was even said in the first place... but I'd guess the reason the Mark of Khorne was "nerfed" was some combination of wanting it to be subjectively on a similar level to the rest and also to adjust for the fact that more units have access to it now.

It's not on a similar level to the rest, it's a whole lot weaker: I agree that a 6++ save is arguably even weaker, but at least Tzeentch's mark is situational, meaning it really does give benefits to units that already have an invulnerable save, such as terminators. But compared to the Mark of Nurgle? Total and utter no brainer there. Even a Mark of Slaanesh is more useful than that of Khorne.

As for more units having access to it... Why would that require a nerf? You still pay for marking units, even those that previously didn't have access to such option, so why does this justify making the mark weaker? That just makes no sense, also because none of the other marks (Tzeentch aside) got nerfed in any way or form. To say nothing of Spawns, who already come with Rage, so they only benefit from one half of the mark!

Firstborn wrote:Look, SoB have many issues and those should be addressed in their book. Not the Chaos book. As to why basic CSM are cheaper, its because GW doesn't really expect too many people to use them in a barebone configuration. They expect players to upgrade them, that means they have to leave room for those additional costs. This is just simply an inherent shortfall of a system based on whole number points, SoB might nominally be 12.5pts and base line CSM 14.4pts in a perfect world but design choices impose how things are rounded.

Oh, I agree SoB have many issues that need to be addressed in a new Codex that will never come, but I really disagree that CSM cost little because they're supposed to be upgraded. I don't know about you, but fielding Tactical Marines without ATSKNF for 13 points per model instead of 15 or 16 is enough justification to field plenty of them. With Chaos, you can field a blob of 20 like that and spend 20 more points than it would cost to do the same with SoB, except they have a Space Marine statline, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Cultists are largely ablative wounds and wouldn't do that job in a transport. They are to either absorb wounds or to largely go on ignored, neither requiring special weapons. Not everyone is going to want to play your notion of a chaos army and there are alot of people who want to field a wall of cultists because they like the idea of a mob... other will simply take a large block of cultists to fill out their troop choices with the cheapest option so they can put more points into other units.

Orders are a byproduct of the Command HQ and Platoon Commmand Squads and to that end is a synergistic attribute... Posing a fair comparison would require you to consider the inclucion in the army of HQ choices that aid Cultists. The Dark Apostle being the seemingly most specifically designed to aid cultists. I believe he conveys hatred to the cultists and is really the only way for cultists to gain a leadership bump. This is one of the main reasons to include the Dark Apostle. I think we'd agree he's a niche unit and only to be used by a handful of specific armies. Not every one plays their armies in an 'Ard Boys level of ultra-competetiveness.

Another minor point is that Veteran of the Long War only conveys Hatred (Space Marines)... The Dark Apostles is the poster child for "Hater's gonna Hate" since he conveys Hatred (everything).

A Platoon Command Squad is included in every infantry platoon, so you're pretty much forced to take them (not that it's a bad thing) and the synergy they provide is much better than what a Dark Apostle can do. Even a Company Command Squad is cheaper and has two orders and more of them. To Synergize with cultists, you need to stick a Lord inside (which makes them Fearless) or a Dark Apostle (which makes them Fearless and Hate everything), but you're not making them more versatile: you're just making them not flee and, in the second case, reroll hits against everything in the first turn of CC, but they will never shoot better or improve their cover saves or recover from having gone to ground or fleeing. You can only ever make them better in CC, at the expense of using a horribly precious HQ slot that has the same stats as a Sorcerer, doesn't come with a force weapon (and is instead forced to take a power maul) and is just 5 points cheaper than a level 2 psyker.

Yes, a blob of 35 fearless cultists with hatred actually can do something in CC that might be worth their cost, but a lot of them will die before actually getting to attack in CC, be it because of overwatch, I3 or no grenades, and this trick just costed you about 20 points less than fielding a blob of 20 non-fearless CSM, that however fight better, kill better, shoot better, save better, attack earlier and are a bit more than just fodder while your HQ murders someone else's character. And by the way, a Lord does that way better than an Apostle thanks to having a better statline, and even with the same equipment he still costs less and still grants fearless.

I'd rather have a 20 blob of CSM with bolt pistol and CCW to escort a killy HQ, the only situation in which they'd be worse is if the opponent has plenty of AP2-3 pie plates or has nothing but antitank weaponry, in which case I hope he has a very good target priority because a unit like this is still below 400 points, so I can still very much focus on long range support and artillery of my own.

What I'm trying to say is that cultists are not useless, the Dark Apostle is: he just doesn't live up to the deal and doesn't benefit cultists enough to justify its cost, it's another prime example of the CSM codex lacking internal balance, you have absolutely gorgeous choices right next to blatantly inferior ones and I have literally no idea how this could have appened.

Wow!

Even with all the interwebz raging and all the talking heads hating, 75% of us like it.

Hmm...

 Sephyr wrote:


True enough, but you mentioned Cultists in addition to both the Apostle and Typhus, so I felt the point was justified. In addition, no CSM force is getting just IG guardmen allies; you need an HQ, and the command squad is quite cost-effective. In fact, both have the advantage of not overcrowding CSM FOC slots.

As for the Apostle, he makes his unit Fearless, as does any Fearless HQ, meaning that all of them give the cultists a Leadership bump. And he is not killy enough by far to make a cultist mob a threat. So even at his niche, he's a day late and a dollar short.

It's a justified point. I think though if you're taking an IG HQ and then a Platoon, your intent for the unit is a bit different. THe use of the Dark Apostle isn't for a single unit of cultists but mostly for an army of cultists. I don't think he's a great unit, I just think he's meant to represent something specific and to allow a patricular type of army. Can we take IG allies?-Sure but then we're playing Chaos Marines and Traitors and not Chaos Marines and Chaos Cultists. There is a reason why in the fluff a bigger deal is made of traitor guard than cultists and why Chaos appreciates the improved reliability of traitors... Traitors are just rarer.

Taking cultists over IG allies is a case of intended use and cost. You don't need the Apostle to make the unit worthwhile particularly if you're limited in the number of points you have. IG you'd end up spending atleast 270pts before any upgrades, for a command and a platoon. If your including cultists out of some limitation of points you're not going to be able to drop that many points on IG allies.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow!

Even with all the interwebz raging and all the talking heads hating, 75% of us like it.

Hmm...

The question is, is, what basis are they voting on? Is it all they wanted it to be, is it a well balanced flavorful book, is it merely just better than the last one, or is it just something new?

At the time it was released, I recall similar polls of people liking the 4E codex too, because it was new and shiny.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?103681-Are-you-Happy-with-the-new-Chaos-Codex&highlight=chaos+codex

 Mokuren wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
I think you need to look at the cultists closer, and the synergy they have with the different IC's. A blob of 35 fearless cultists being led by a tooled out chaos lord or dark apostle is nasty. Combine that with the different psycic powers available, and there are some devastating combinations.
The cultists were a very intentional entry in the codex, and are very powerful if you know how to use them. The wargear options on the cultists are really a minor point. The pistol and close combat weapon is all they need.

Considering allies are a thing, the only advantage cultists have over an imperial guardsman is that you can have one of your ICs join the first but not the latter. I'm not saying it's a terrible advantage, but with allies being a thing there is practically no reason to field autogun cultists, as they are basically guardsmen with worse equipment.

... Wow. It really takes a lot to be worse equipped than an IG guardsman, I'm still surprised it happened. At least, for the price of a conscript, you get someone with pistol and CCW, so that's two WS 3 S3 attacks from each of your expendables!

... At I1, because no grenades lol.

Frankly, the codex is not bad, and if this really becomes the new 6th edition power level instead of a low swing on the pendulum to be duly corrected when the next iteration of Space Jocks comes around, I'm completely fine with it.

The problem is that there are parts that are just outright lazy. Tell me again for what reason I should ever take a Dark Apostle, ever? Since it is inferior to a Lord in every possible way and also more expensive? Tell me again why the Mark of Khorne needed a nerf? Tell me again why CC troops in general needed a nerf, considering 6th edition already nerfed that on its own? Tell me again why Chosen have 2 attacks base but friggin' Khorne Berzerkers have ONE? Tell me again why the cult troops of Slaanesh with their special sonic weapons are worse at firing on the move than random blokes with a cheap boltgun? Tell me again why I shouldn't shelf my sisters now that for one more point you get a space mar- Er, no, wait, that's a bit off topic.

I like chaos being chaotic, I enjoy its plethora of new options and potential synergies, I like all the fiddly options and the new weapons (we certainly could have used a really generic daemon weapon though) and I believe the codex got a massive improvement over the poor excuse of a clusterfeth it was in its last iteration. Overall, it's a good codex, but it really, really suffers from being this edition's guinea pig.

... I mean seriously, defilers at 195 points? Are you kidding me? 10 extra points for a Land Raider for zero improvements and still no PotMS-equivalent? Daemonic possession was nerfed and it still costs you a point of BS? Is this gak for real? And wait, the last and most unknown of nameless wolf lords is an eternal warrior but Lucius THE ETERNAL is not? And neither are all those blokes that have been around since the friggin' Horus Heresy (with the exception of Abby)? Oh for f-

"is that you can have one of your ICs join the first but not the latter."
This is HUGE, however. The IC's are designed to work in tandem with the cultists. And also by doing this, you leave open the possibility of daemon allies.


"Tell me again why Chosen have 2 attacks base but friggin' Khorne Berzerkers have ONE?"Khorne Berzerkers have 2 base, 1 + pistol\CCW = 2. On the charge they have rage, so 4 attacks total. Combine this with Furious charge. and
it is brutal. And the big one; Khorne Berzerkers are typically scoring models.

Veterans of the long war can be absolutely game changing when fighting other MEQ lists.

"defilers at 195 points? Are you kidding me?"
I think they are priced about right for what they do. I personally wouldn't take them if I was going into a tournament seeking 1st place, but in casual or semi-competitive games they can be awesome.


" the last and most unknown of nameless wolf lords is an eternal warrior but Lucius THE ETERNAL is not?"
I agree, there could have been more thought put into this. I believe the pricing\options of the SW codex are over the top in general. However, the ability to make virtually anything T5 helps mitigate this a lot.

on a slightly related subject, i am looking for a reason why i should or should not start a csm army

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483303.page

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow!

Even with all the interwebz raging and all the talking heads hating, 75% of us like it.

Hmm...

The question is, is, what basis are they voting on? Is it all they wanted it to be, is it a well balanced flavorful book, is it merely just better than the last one, or is it just something new?

At the time it was released, I recall similar polls of people liking the 4E codex too, because it was new and shiny.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?103681-Are-you-Happy-with-the-new-Chaos-Codex&highlight=chaos+codex

You can't deny that it is much better, and has far more options than the last codex. And contrary to popular belief, the last codex actually held up well on the table
all the way till the end of 5th. I went to a tournament near the end of 5th with the top players in my area. Guess who won? 4E CSM, and the player wasn't even running
Obliterators in his list; true story.

I would suggest enjoying the codex and models if you like them. It is what we have for the next 5 years, and you can make it work if you try. It is not a no-brainer "I win"
button like GK, Necrons, and to a lesser extent SW. But it is very competitive if you know how to use it, and is near the top when you start factoring in daemon allies.

Has anyone thought of the Psyker Battle battle squad playing leadership shenanigans on the Dark Apostle? I play against too many Guard armies to even risk that debacle. Imagine, the Dark Apostle screwing up the LD of some unsuspecting CSM squads right before the mass of templates drop from out of nowhere an make those CSMs run away like scared little girls.

I just want to see it happen once, just once, and see the guard player win in one round of shooting. Although, I do determine if it is worth playing anymore based on if my army survives turn two pie plates to the face, it's not like this little trick gives the Guard player any more of an edge than he/she already has.

I'm not saying it needs to be an I-Win button, merely pointing out that just because a lot of people are voting that they like it doesn't necessarily mean what they think it means and that it may change.

Honestly, my biggest issue isn't with its competitiveness, rather that it still has most of the same issues the previous book did (no proper Cult options outside of 1 unit for each god, awkward hamfisting of Renegades and Legions, etc), feels like it was phoned in on much of it (eh cut 10pts off the top and 2ppm and call it good...), and much of the rest a lot of awkward and unnecessary "change for its own sake" changes.

There's some good stuff, but it doesn't really feel like a good effort.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Honestly, my biggest issue isn't with its competitiveness, rather that it still has most of the same issues the previous book did (no proper Cult options outside of 1 unit for each god, awkward hamfisting of Renegades and Legions, etc), feels like it was phoned in on much of it (eh cut 10pts off the top and 2ppm and call it good...), and much of the rest a lot of awkward and unnecessary "change for its own sake" changes.

There's some good stuff, but it doesn't really feel like a good effort.

I'd say its a good effort on a few things, making it what it should have been.

I just don't think given the scope GW wants to keep the Chaos Space Marines at its reasonable to expect more cult or Legion specific rules, unless GW spins off a separate codex specifically to address them. I think you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment to expect it.

Something else I've been thinking about is that while GW usually takes the lead on the game design front... The fact FW was given the go ahead to do the Horus Heresy models and books may have impacted the mindset for this codex, wherein any thought about more extensively covering the Legions was met with "if you want to play a Legion, buy those FW books." Even the cults could inevitably be covered by the end of the heresy era rules for the god dedicated legions and may well have been treated to the same rationale. I don't like it when people say "there is always FW" but it may very well be GW saying it this time.

The problem with the way they've done it is that they've gone an awkward half-way that really doesn't satisfy anything and we get this weird split where elite troops and commanders lack the gifts of their grunts. They managed to fit it in and make it work before in a codex with half the page count, and while yes it was abuseable, that was mainly an issue of costing more than anything else.

Additionally we've still got the awkward hamfisting of post-heresy renegades running around with Pre-heresy weapons and wargear that also makes little sense.

The problem with the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books is that they're pre-heresy and heresy era armies. The list presented therein is not a Chaos Space Marine army list, but a Great Crusade Space Marine Legion army list with some slight modifiers for each Legion. Wargear, squad organization, and rules are vastly different. Furthermore, the HH army list utilizes a non-standard FoC and is designed for games larger than most typical 40k games, essentially making a sweet spot of about 2500pts for them. This makes it a bit problematic for people looking at that route.

There should be "I dont really care" option too

 seanny247 wrote:
on a slightly related subject, i am looking for a reason why i should or should not start a csm army

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483303.page

Best reason to start one: Because you want to.

Best reason to not start one: Because you don't want to.

QED and despite what anyone else might say to convince you one way or the other this is ultimately what the decision comes down to, so why not cut out the middle man?

Skriker

 Daemonhammer wrote:
There should be "I dont really care" option too

There is one, it's called don't vote.

See I'm not sure what the problem is with the codex from a competitive point of view. I've played several games at 2000 points with a friend of mine (a Blood Angels player) and so far I've ended up almost tabling him every game. Warp Talons especially are an awesome choice, an equivalent 10 man squad of Vanguard Vets will run you easily 150 points more than these guys

 silence indigo wrote:
To get back on the topic... I'm not sure to get why Bikers with Mark of Nurgle are suddenly so impressive. Because of Instant Death immunity, or a slightly lower point cost?

I like the models (I have Nurgle 10 bikers, all conversions) but it seems they're so expensive to field out and have so little firepower that I can't really feature a use for them compared to my Plague Marines (who don't die) and my Obliterators (who destroy tanks from afar), for example. Sure, they're fast, but that much faster than a Rhino and while Toughness 6, they still can be shot by an Infantry guard's lasrifle if enough sixes are rolled on wounds... And you have about 5 IG troopers for a single bike that doesn't shoot much.

What am I missing in the new codex that suddently makes them so interesting?

I think people find them interesting based on the novelty of being immune to instant death via double toughness and using the unit to deliver a chaos lord or sorcerer quickly to a target without fear of him getting killed due to a well placed shot. I could be wrong though. I prefer using plague marines since there is few str 10 weapons.

I like them the book is solid and they have pushed them selves away from the codex marines. This book feels more chaos then Space Marines with spiky bits and special rules.