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Skriker wrote:

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

It means it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand and does nothing to advance the conversation and is instead seeking to deflect it and discredit the other party when relevant arguments are exhausted.

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

It is is in fact a strawman, there's nothing else really needed to say, as the strawman is irrelevant and engaging it does nothing to advance the conversation.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Skriker wrote:

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

It means it's irrelevant to the conversation at hand and does nothing to advance the conversation and is instead seeking to deflect it and discredit the other party when relevant arguments are exhausted.

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

It is is in fact a strawman, there's nothing else really needed to say, as the strawman is irrelevant and engaging it does nothing to advance the conversation.

Pretty much this in that response, why engage a full out and out strawman post, it's like responding to a troll post, you post what it is and move on.

Ok, Im gonna try and bring this thread back on track. It's sort of going on a tangent.

I was unimpressed with the codex at first, and still am a little, but I am coming around to it. I, like many, thought some of the units were priced really strangely but I'm realizing that things aren't quite what they seem. I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies are VERY common.

Well if the Chaos player whines on forums about how underpowered his codex is compared to the other ones, he'll never get to play a game so we'll never know for sure.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

I realize what you're saying and admit that CSM are at the bottom ofthe list at the moment, but this argument isn't entirely fair either. Most people are concerned more about the codex's lack of playable fluff, so I doubt they are facing these types of lists on a regular basis.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

All of your lists are different. What competitive players want is a codex that can build balanced and competitive lists for all comers. The above non-CSM lists are all competitive all comers lists. The new CSM dex has no obvious all comers builds (at the moment) without fielding allies (Epedimius, etc). I don't think it's unreasonable at all to expect a codex to produce a strong all comers list. By the way, I do think ours can with a bit of work and thought.

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

I'm wondering very much how exactly the Thousand Sons+cultists would crush a Coteas list. Likewise, how Forgefiends and Plague Marines are somehow scything a Necron Airforce from the skies. SW armies aren't much behind in terms of CC with cheaper units and way more firepower than the Chosen+Zerkers force, and Noise Marines kill Air Mech...how? Unless they're just starting with literally nothing on the table and auto-lose.

These are also all wildly different lists, entirely different armies as a matte of fact. Making decent, varied all-comers lists to engage these foes isn't really possible, even if it is by doing what you suggest, that's literally collecting 4 different armies which those foes don't have to do.

 iron_freak220 wrote:
Ok, Im gonna try and bring this thread back on track. It's sort of going on a tangent.

I was unimpressed with the codex at first, and still am a little, but I am coming around to it. I, like many, thought some of the units were priced really strangely but I'm realizing that things aren't quite what they seem. I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

This is one of the more well thought out posts in this thread. I've been helping a friend of mine who has gotten back into 40K and is playing Chaos Marines, and I've built a couple of lists with the new book and got to see it in action. I can say, without a doubt, that this codex is an improvement over the previous one. The problem is, folks keep looking at each unit in a vacuum, and this never ends well. This codex is built for a degree of synergy that alot of players just aren't comfortable with. If you march your Khorne Berzerkers or Defiler at the head of the army with little support, they will die and you will feel they are overpriced. But if you put some thought into it, you can get alot of mileage out of those same units.

For example, the Chaos Rhino suffers from the same problems regular loyalist Rhinos suffer from, the lack of the Assault Vehicle rule. But at 35 points, its still a huge bargain. Throw a dirge caster on that thing and run some supporting vehicles with it, and your Khorne Berzerkers will do some damage. The list I wrote for my buddy included 3 rhinos, all with dirge casters, and they caused all sorts of havok to his opponents battle line. Your units will get shot, the trick is to give your opponent many targets and force him to split his fire, or if he concentrates his fire on one unit, another unit steps in and makes him pay. Nurgle Bikers are great for this, as they are hard to kill, can really do some damage on the charge, and are dirt cheap. A rhino full of Plague Marines will also give your opponent some pause. Heck, deepstrike some terminators in to support those units that disembarked on turn two, just a few of them is all it takes and they tend to draw alot of fire. The point is, no one unit should be looked at and judged in a vacuum, as how they interact with the other units makes all the difference.

Are there some useless units? Most likely there will be a few units that never get used, such as Mutilators (seriously, were these even necessary? Didn't Oblits have the ability in 3rd to generate close combat weapons to begin with?). Mutilators are overpriced and just don't look like they have any place in the army, as there's really not much need for a small, slow, expensive close combat unit that can't be easily transported. I guess one could stick them behind a blob of cultists and slowly make your way across the battlefield, or even run them with a dreadnau...., er, uh, Helbrute or two. Could be interesting to see how either of those tactics works.

My only real problem with this codex is the dump that got taken on Tzeentch. Not so much the Thousand Sons, as they really are the same as they were before and that was pretty decent (not great, but decent for their purpose), but the regular marines that rely on the Mark and Icon. Reducing the invul save to 6+ was a bit harsh. Better to have raised the price a point or two and give back the 5+. Heck, make a unit with the mark gain the use of a single psychic power (even preselected), anything that would have made the Mark of Tzeentch more desirable than what it is now. I foresee the sharp decline of Tzeentch armies coming very soon, which is a shame because I have always felt that Tzeentch was one of the more interesting Chaos lords.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies a VERY common.

From what I have seen in my meta the CSM player will crush all of them, if he builds his list right.

Thousand Sons and cultists will crush the Coteaz player
Necron Airforce dies to Forgefiends, Havocs and Plague Marines
SW players die to Chosen, Zerkers and the Helldrake
Air Mech dies very quickly to Noise Marines (turn one table)

I'm wondering very much how exactly the Thousand Sons+cultists would crush a Coteas list. Likewise, how Forgefiends and Plague Marines are somehow scything a Necron Airforce from the skies. SW armies aren't much behind in terms of CC with cheaper units and way more firepower than the Chosen+Zerkers force, and Noise Marines kill Air Mech...how? Unless they're just starting with literally nothing on the table and auto-lose.

These are also all wildly different lists, entirely different armies as a matte of fact. Making decent, varied all-comers lists to engage these foes isn't really possible, even if it is by doing what you suggest, that's literally collecting 4 different armies which those foes don't have to do.

I am talking about games I have seen played by different players and your wildly different army argument holds no water, as all armies listed were wildly different as well.

Noise marines are great against Airforce lists. Take Ahriman and infiltrate Noisemarines 18 inches away from your enemies few ground troops and kill them. 30 Shots that ignore cover on turn one will decimate any IG ground troops. If they are in tanks, you got your forgefiend(s) to bust those open. The same goes for the Necron lists.

Zerkers, Helldrakes and Noisemarines tear Greyhunters to shreds. Coteaz lists are not unbeatable with any of those lists and will give any army a run for their money. That is the reason they are one of the top lists for tournaments, but they can be beat.

Mohoc wrote:

I am talking about games I have seen played by different players and your wildly different army argument holds no water, as all armies listed were wildly different as well.

yes they're wildly different opponents, the issue is that you shouldn't need to build 4 different armies to effectively combat them is the point, as those builds generally are capable of engaging each other.

Noise marines are great against Airforce lists. Take Ahriman and infiltrate Noisemarines 18 inches away from your enemies few ground troops and kill them. 30 Shots that ignore cover on turn one will decimate any IG ground troops. If they are in tanks, you got your forgefiend(s) to bust those open.

This relies on a whole lot of luck and situational variables, aside from turning off a lot of players for obvious background reasons. You have to get enough infilitrating units (remember, it's a random number) up to make it matter, and they have to have few enough units to easily be engaged. Forgefiends are good, but not foolproof, they're not going to each kill an AV12 tank by themselves, a couple cheap tanks or something more than the minimum number of units in a single infantry platoon is all they'd really need to weather a turn of fire most likely, especially if Night Fight comes into play (50% of the time). Both IG and Necrons can put enough stuff on the field to survive that little trick and still have tons of flyers to overwhelm the AA abilities of an army like that. It's not something that'd ever work twice against a capable opponent. Emperor help you if they slap an LRBT or 2 in the corner while they wait for the flyer-horde to come on after you've infiltrated up and all you've got to engage it at range is S8 guns.
.

Zerkers, Helldrakes and Noisemarines tear Greyhunters to shreds.

In and of themselves? yes. When matched with cheap long fangs, TWC's, Runepriests, etc, the equation swings way in the SW's favor.

Coteaz lists are not unbeatable with any of those lists and will give any army a run for their money. That is the reason they are one of the top lists for tournaments, but they can be beat.

I'm not saying they're invincible, I'm just not seeing how any of those CSM builds are particularly spectacular counters, or why we'd need to build 4 different armies for use against different opponents instead of being capable of building decent all-comers armies.

And that's my point, the codex is not capable enough of even building an all comers list to match all the most used armies in the game. God help if you try to build a mono god or theme list (if you can even manage to represent it, looking at you alpha legion).

 Spartan089 wrote:
And that's my point, the codex is not capable enough of even building an all comers list to match all the most used armies in the game. God help if you try to build a mono god or theme list (if you can even manage to represent it, looking at you alpha legion).

Chaos is probably more equipped to deal with Necrons and their airforce than any other army. Dirt cheap Havocs, lots of twin linked auto cannons, and the Heldrake are going to give flyers trouble. Heck, throw in a Forgefiend with two Hades Autocannons, and you've got an army that can effectively shred flyer heavy lists. Given that those same things are also useful against all other armies, I fail to see the problem there.

Yes, mono lists that stick rigidly to one cult troop are going to get pounded, but nowhere does it say that a Khorne army has only berzerkers. If that were the case, Khorne would never be effective in battle. When building a mono list, you don't have to take just the cult troops, nor should you. Basic marines are much improved this edition, and Chaos Havocs are dirt cheap and very effective. An army of Khorne should include all sorts of non-cult troops, such as bikers (Khorne bikers are very scary), daemon engines, and cultists.

I can't really enjoy this codex, because I am not a fan of the miniatures in the army. Only the new stuff is appealing to me, such as the models from DV, Heldrake, Forge/Mauler fiends. The rest of the line up, except for a few minis, look outdated, silly. It is just a matter of preference, but I really want to get into this codex, but I can't.

I don't want to field numerous amounts of csm's, and the alternatives, to go elite, is ok.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Let's make an example:

There are 5 players in an area with the same skill level:

A Grey Knight Coteaz player
A Necron Airforce Player
A SW player using grey hunters and long fangs
A IG Air Mecha vets player
A Chaos player using the new codex

Realistically from top to bottom who has the best chance of winning? And don't say this is an unrealistic situation as these armies are VERY common.

Your whining might gain some credibility some day if you ever bothered to compare the book to anything other than the broken 4. You could put any of the other books into that line-up instead of Chaos and you would end up with the same result. So are you going to tell us all but the broken 4 are crap and not usable? I'm guessing not, as that would take away from your endless whining of Chaos. So please, at least use a new and more valid argument; broken record and all that.

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Tycho wrote:

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

These are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for. None of that would cause the army to be "broken", and I don't think any of it is too out of line or far fetched either. I would just like to be able to take advantage of what my army has to offer without 2000pts, a double FOC AND allies. I'm hoping this isn't a
trend for future codexes (needing to play a full 2000 to get the new toys AND a playable army).

just something would have been nice. Except for the force org manipulations on chaos lords it seems every chaos HQ is an island and does not really provide much.

 iron_freak220 wrote:

I am a competitive player rather than a fluffy one so my opinions will stem from that.

Let me give an example of what I'm talking about. The big price increase that people felt cheated by was the Defiler. Why raise the cost nearly 50 pts for no damage increase and only a few survivabilty special rules? Well this codex really forces you to think about the roles of your units. The battlecannon has a 72" range so your defiler should make use of that and stay back behind your advancing forces. From that range only the long distance heavy weapons are going to pose a threat for the majority of the game so the Invul save and IWND actually play a bigger part than they seem. The points are actually pretty close to where they should be and the defiler is much more survivable if you understand its role and the rest of your army.

I am more and more thinking this codex is as competitive as the person who uses it. Someone said we should make the best of what we've got and that's definitely true.

I find it interesting that people say the SW, Cron, GK codecies are overpowered but then hope that the CSM dex would be the same power level. I hope that our book is the beginning of a new trend of books.

That being said, though, our book does feel like a bit of a rules tester. Same with last edition. GW will use us a guinea pig to see what works and model future codecies around that. This is why CSM tends to be on the underside of the top tourney lists.

I am warming up to the codex, but am extremely disappointed in one thing: the lack of tactical mobility. Rhinos are terrible for assault units, Land Raiders are too expensive, we have no flying transports, nothing has scout or infiltrate without the walord trait, no drop pods, and no deep strike control without a fairly useless piece of wargear.

I think people will come around though.

Sorry but you don't sound like you are coming from a competitive angle to me. Why would you ever field the overpriced defiler when you have the option of fielding it as an allied soul grinder which is more effective and now cheaper? The defiler was better at its old cost because even though it was weaker than the soul grinder, it was a little bit cheaper and had better range. Now? Its no contest.

Rhinos are horrible assault vehicles as you said. Due to the edition change you will never be able to stage a decent rhino based assault. Too many variables have changed to make it worthwhile. The game will be mostly over before you engage your first enemy unit and that is three turns of shooting you have had to weather to get there. Without drop pods or some form of turn one deepstrike chaos is S.O.L. in the assault department. The infiltration warlord power, a land raider, and bikers are the only saving grace.

What is bad about that is chaos is a very assault oriented army, much more so than ultramarines or space wolves, who both have much better options for assault transports. Chaos should be on par with blood angels when it comes to assault. The units are, but with no way to reliably deliver them they are mostly useless.

Garukadon wrote:
I can't really enjoy this codex, because I am not a fan of the miniatures in the army. Only the new stuff is appealing to me, such as the models from DV, Heldrake, Forge/Mauler fiends. The rest of the line up, except for a few minis, look outdated, silly. It is just a matter of preference, but I really want to get into this codex, but I can't.

I don't want to field numerous amounts of csm's, and the alternatives, to go elite, is ok.

Plenty of minis options out there. Heck you could even use basic space marine minis without all the spiky bits to represent your troops. One of the best aspects of chaos is the lack of a need for uniformity. You could grab a bunch of different plastic kits and combine them up in a unique way that appeals to you to represent your chaos marines. My chaos marine units are made up of: Some current plastic chaos marine models, old vintage converted fantasy chaos champion figures, converted space wolf figures, vintage chaos marine renegade figures, and so on and so on. None of my units are made up of all the same types of models. Definitely helps if you don't specifically like the look of one type of figure since you can buy that box of 10 chaos marines and have no more than 2 of them in any one unit with all the options available to you.

I do like the uniqueness of your post, though. Most folks are disliking all the new stuff and you are the opposite.

Skriker

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Do you know me out ide these forums, the meta I play in, what armies I play and at what tournaments etc? I am pretty sure you don't know me, just as I am pretty sure that your experience blogging on a no-name blog about armies translates well into actual play experience.

Skriker wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

Are you seriously complaining about people complaining?

You do realize how hypocritical this is, right?

I'm going to start, as I always do, by shaming those who won't stopping pissing and moaning about Chaos Legions. Face the facts. Special snowflame rules for Traitor Legions have never existed, and never will exist. I liked the "white whale" analogy. What you think you had in 3rd edition was nothing more than a list of suggestions for army composition and one or two rule/wargear pieces. These aren't rules. These don't make your army special. And their absence does not make your army invalid. Every single Legion can be played now. They could even be played with the last codex, although unit marking via icons wasn't ideal. With the new book, you have everything you've ever wanted, but that still isn't enough. As I said in another thread, shut up and play.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to talk about my feelings towards the new book. I'm building a Red Corsairs army. It is an old school Corsairs army of traitors and pirates (I don't like that they are actually red now, and a real thing. not a judgment, just preference). The army is build from the bones of my Blood Angels army, which I gave up on editions ago when I felt that GW wasn't providing enough model and rules support (by that, I mean that the codex was no longer in line with the most current SM codex, and thus there were compatibility issues). A big part of the army is the inclusion of marked "character" units, which turned in a specific way. For example, the army has an iconic Death Company unit, lead by a corrupt Chaplain you turned the unit to Khorne (this is where the army started).

Initially, I was bothered by the marked Cult units becoming Elites again, which meant that I couldn't field the army as intended anymore. But then I started thinking. What I was after was a collection of comrades that turned together to contrast the rest of the army, which is a ragtag band of misfits from every chapter. What I was after were marked traitor units. I realized that my Iron Hands unit, lead by a Techmarine who fell to Slaanesh over his obsession with bionics and improving his Marines, isn't actually a Noise Marine squad; it's a squad of Slaanesh marked Chaos Marines. This got me thinking about the others, and I realized that I don't need to make them Cult units. The only one that doesn't really fit are the "Thousand Sons," a unit of Ultramarines led by a Codicier Librarian who felt betrayed by the Codex Astartes and turned to radical warp theories to save his unit. Rules wise, they kind of have to be Thousand Sons Marines, but the rest don't have to be the specific marked units.

What I'm getting at is that the new codex has gotten me to think outside the box and about what I want my army to be. I find that really empowering. Other things I like are the improved options and selections that I can make. No longer are my Aspiring Champions just Marines with a power weapon or combi-weapon. No longer is my Chaos Lord just a bigger Sapce Marine.

Now, here's what I don't like. I too am very disappointed with daemon weapons. In the last 2 editions, I was developing a Chaos Lord who was less of a pirate and more on the cusp of Ruinous embrace. He was meant to be a segway from ordinary Space Marine to the Chaos powers. Sadly, daemon weapons basically don't exist now. The Murder Sword is a huge let down, the axe is a Khorne only weapon, and I haven't decided on the Black Mace (I'm a fan of swords). This is something I'm going to have to reconsider. That's about it for things I don't like. As I start playing again, I may find others, but the army is still the same, and the rules are still there.

There are a few things I don't care for though. Not that they are bad, but I am not attracted to the new vehicles. They just don't do it for me. I'm also not a fan of the Warp Talons being a separate unit from Raptors, which only really differ in wargear. Things like that, which don't seem necessary or particularly appealing for me. That said, I'm also toying with a Slaanesh army, and am loving the murder storm that are Slaanesh marked Warp Talons. 12 Init 5 Lightning Claws on jump packs? Yes please.

All in all, I'm impressed. The codex builds on the previous books (which I actually really liked) without diverting heavily or changing what worked. As I mentioned, Chaos Marines are still Chaos Marines. Nothing changed there except that we can now mark them easily. A Predator is still a Predator, and a Hellbrute is still a Dreadnought. What changed were the increased options and the refinement. Oh, and Chaos Cultists, which were always cool.

You forgot the option for "meh!"

I play biker marines, which are certainly not a top tier army, but I like them for their "coolness factor," and the fact that I don't have to paint Rhinos (seriously, the only vehicles I like are Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts).

The biggest problem I see reading through the Chaos Codex is that there is no "coolness factor." There's nothing that leaps out and says, "play me, I'm different."

It's not a terrible Codex, it's certainly better than the last one, but it doesn't sparkle. Crazy as the Space Wolf Codex is, with Space Wolves riding wolves surrounding by wolves and wielding wolf themed weapons, it does have that joie de vivre. Chaos lacks that. It's businesslike, functional, the complete opposite of what you'd expect Chaos to be like.

Even nuNecrons™ have that atmosphere of the moustache twirling, top hat and cloak wearing villain about them. The older version had the feel of an emotionless implacable foe whose sole motivation was the ending of life. Chaos, who if we invoke the Dante's imagery should be like fallen angels, eternally tormented by the light they cannot return to, lack that aura of tragic majesty/majestic tragedy in the background and don't have any distinctive feel on the tabletop either.

That said, who expects high literature in a a tabletop game anyway? *laughing at oneself*

I'm going to start, as I always do, by shaming those who won't stopping pissing and moaning about Chaos Legions. Face the facts. Special snowflame rules for Traitor Legions have never existed, and never will exist. I liked the "white whale" analogy. What you think you had in 3rd edition was nothing more than a list of suggestions for army composition and one or two rule/wargear pieces. These aren't rules. These don't make your army special. And their absence does not make your army invalid. Every single Legion can be played now. They could even be played with the last codex, although unit marking via icons wasn't ideal. With the new book, you have everything you've ever wanted, but that still isn't enough. As I said in another thread, shut up and play.

Actually it does make parts of my army invalid, my Dreadnoughts with it's replacement sonic weapons (Doom siren and Blastmaster for note) , my predators with blastmaster and sonic blasters, my Havocs ability to replace autocannons with blastmasters, my CSM's ability to replace meltaguns with doom sirens, my Terminators ability to take blastmasters, my lords equipment choices of Lash of Torment and Needle of desire.

Those special snowflake rules did exist, and it was far more than one or two rules with wargear.

Your shaming is quite weak.

Less fluff, more stuff.

That's how I'm reading it. The new units have uses - except perhaps, Warp Talons. The daemon engines are a bit limited in their use, but can be horrifyingly effective if properly supported.

And that's the strength of the new codex. An effective army will utilize multiple threats to pull apart enemy forces. A Maulerfiend blitzing tanks while accompanied by bikes to pick off infantry is a huge threat and distraction in the early game, forcing your opponent to ignore other threats. A Helldrake could run roughshod over the field if other threats exist across the field. Deep strike Oblits or hunt down more elite infantry with plasma-armed Raptors. Havoc scan safely camp and fire away.

The threats are there, but a balanced approach will work better.

This one encourages customization and creating your own fluff, and Chaos seems more capable of crazy conversions than other armies. Some people have mentioned they don't feel there is some "unique" and different build out there, but with the sheer variety available now, and the options with allies, I can't possibly imagine a CSM field with no room for creativity or invention.

the book is pants......but I have been writing some lists and just dealing with it......

I mean cmon, we all know how fluffy a massive meathshield of cultists and spawn is....followed by 2 to 3 units of CSM's and backed up by 15 havocs. All lead by a Dark Apostle and a Sorcerer......woo hoo exctiting stuff. And its even better because my guys carry a aegis defence line with them everywhere they go and woo hoo I can now collect that demon allies list I have been putting off since I first purchased lead men in 1990..

Groan and looks enviously at all the codex's mentioned above above....throws codex csm from window in disgust at being crapped on again by GW

Mohoc wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

That being said, Mohoc's examples are terrible and clearly ignorant of how the game works on a competitive front, so you win that round easily.

Do you know me out ide these forums, the meta I play in, what armies I play and at what tournaments etc? I am pretty sure you don't know me, just as I am pretty sure that your experience blogging on a no-name blog about armies translates well into actual play experience.

You didn't like the book and dared to hope GW actually equalize the comeptitive terrain of the game somehow. Tht's all he needs to know in order to get everything about your play style, local meta, favorite food and possibly blood type.

HOW DARE YOU NOT MEET MY PERSONAL EXPECTATIONS FOR MY PLASTIC MEN, GW!?

Not like they are individuals with their own perceptions and creative visions for a line of product that they created...

You know what they say about the dissatisfied complaining the loudest... look at the poll results. 3 to 1 think the new codex is fine. The naysayers are the most heard.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

You know what they say about the dissatisfied complaining the loudest... look at the poll results. 3 to 1 think the new codex is fine. The naysayers are the most heard.

There are 15 armies besides Chaos Space Marines.

Of course all their opponents think this is a great codex!

Why do you think most people said codex: Grey Knights was so horrible? It wasn't people playing it that said that, it was the people who had to play against it!

I like the book a lot. Lots of options and possibilities for customisation. I especially like :

- Boon of the gods
- Unit options, such as Marks and Icons and Wargear
- More lots of cool units with odd powers, allowing for extreme variety even in armies themed after a single chaos god
- Cultists
- Daemon monsters
- Dark Apostles
- Lower point costs for Lords and Sorcerers, allowing for more options

Most things I'd like less are the cost of the Defiler, the look of the Helldrake and the loss of Infiltrate for Chosen.

Edit: Oh, and my chaos spawn can now serve in my armies, like walking alongside a unit of cultists to deny an opponent a charge bonus, and to make great distraction units (I'd have thought that just making them Beasts and losing S&P would have made them good, and there you go!) They can even serve Father Nurgle and contribute to the Tally of Pestilence now. Great job!