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 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

FallenAfh wrote:
I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Could be a bit of "it's better than the last POS".

Barfolomew wrote:

FallenAfh wrote:
I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Could be a bit of "it's better than the last POS".

This is a lot of it. It's hard to argue with that, it *is* better than the last book.

The only problem is that such a comparison isn't exactly high praise

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
I took a read through and sadly I will still be avoiding all things GW.

Have fun! We'll be here when you get back.

So it isn't utter gak any more, it's just plain gak, am I getting this right? Here's my $50, GW, take it, take it!

On a more serious note - I loved the part where GW commissions black and white artwork, has some minimum wage guy color it in PS using layers, and then lauds it as full color. Classy. I think I'll count up the number of pictures in the codex that are colored B&W and juxtapose it against truecolor pics. I wonder what the result will be?

This is what makes it potentialy great

 schadenfreude wrote:
I like the codex. The thing I like most about the codex is it's a sign of things to come. Ever since warhammer fantasy battle went into 8th edition their books went hardback the codex creep stopped and the new books have been competitive but not overpowering the previous books. The stopping of the codex creep went over well with the WHFB community, so they seem to be doing the same with 40k.

And this is what makes it the usual crap

omgitsduane wrote:

What I don't love?
Defiler being almost 200 points for doing exactly what it did before. NO WAY is this justified unless to sell the fiend kits, right?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

Any more than any other Codex before or since?

Please...

FallenAfh wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I'm waiting for the inevitable "the poll numbers don't mean anything, its anonymous haters hating on those of us that hate the new codex. I know objectively that the book is crap and all of you who like the new codex are doing it wrong".

Actualy yes, the poll numbers don't mean anything (substantial), btw if I had to vote I'd vote "yes" (like it) as the codex is good in my opinion, could be better obviously but holds a little promise for a more balanced future which counts for me. I hate nerfing for sales but that's the problem of all codieces not this particular one.

I don't know how to answer this topic because it's not specific enough.

-I like the new units and army list
-I dislike the hardcover and cost

I am eagerly awaiting the FAQ that clears up a couple of unclear rules... I also suspect at that point people will finally cease their whining because CSM will have had a few months experience under their belts.

Ironically (Tzeentch would be disappointed), Chaos players are surprisingly resistant to change. Also people have a tendency to forget that this is a casual game, not optimized for tournament play. Ork players seem to understand this, with all their randomness, but I don't know why everybody else is forgetting it. I think the majority of the outcry is coming from:
A) People who had a wishlist or particular idea that wasn't fulfilled (such as Alpha Legion fans, people who wanted Abaddon to make Chaos Terminators as troops, etc).
B) People who wanted the CSM codex to be the next over-powered and broken codex so that they could use it to WAAC.
C) Players who were already dissatisfied with 6E in general, so each subsequent codex in 6E will likely not measure up either.

Its funny how people complained about 4E CSM being nothing more than SM with spikes on them, but now that we have a decently-flavorful codex with the slightest bit of randomness thrown in (and nothing quite as potentially devastating as a raging Chaos Dreadnought) people are up in arms.

No, it is not a Ward codex, so it is not meant to break the game. It is not meant to be the new bandwagon codex for everybody to jump on and expect to win tournaments with. It is the start of a bright new future: a future of 6E Codexes that are balanced, fun, and make for memorable gaming experiences. I can't wait for the first time my Abaddon model gets replaced by a Spawn. It'll be hilarious.

I don't like it, but don't hate it either. Feels lazy and bland. For an update that only comes by every 6+ years, it fails on both fronts: of reimagining the army's concept in a competitive, interesting form and in making the old stuff cool.

It says a lot that the likely tournament build to emerge from this is probably going to Nurgle Epidemius+Typhus...same as before the book came out. Not saying we should demand cheese, but when the core concepts are so unchanged that no snazzy new weapon comes out, that says something.

That said, I like some things a lot. The special characters all shine as far as I'm concerned: fluffy, fun and solid. The idea of combining marks and Icons is cool, as if the rewards for winning challenges (though it being mandatory is a big bummer). There's a lot of flexibility and fiddling around possible.

As for people saying this is the start of a saner, more level era for Codex-writing...please do wait for the next Ward book before breaking that arm patting yourself on the back, folks. You may be glad you did.

I really think its a nice balance between having options and keeping it lean.

It reminds me of the update to 4E tau and 4E Eldar, lazy.

Sephyr wrote:As for people saying this is the start of a saner, more level era for Codex-writing...please do wait for the next Ward book before breaking that arm patting yourself on the back, folks. You may be glad you did.

People have been saying this about Fantasy ABs for 2yrs now and they've been wrong. Maybe people should finally accept that GW are doing their best and it is working and that needlessly nating on them for the sake of it isn't going to achieve anything.

I'm torn, I played against the new Chaos Dex and he focused on getting the torrent flamers, allied guard, and Helldrakes/Vendettas.

I was playing as Wolves, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my Quad Gun, None of my shots were connecting, and once he cracked all my rhinos and nuked my long fangs with the flyers, I was hosed.

Granted, next time we meet, I'll have a Skyshield, so eff those flyers, but anyone thinking of running a foot list outside of Terminators better think again if Heldrakes take off and anti-air is still a limited commodity.

TheKbob wrote:
I'm torn, I played against the new Chaos Dex and he focused on getting the torrent flamers, allied guard, and Helldrakes/Vendettas.

I was playing as Wolves, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my Quad Gun, None of my shots were connecting, and once he cracked all my rhinos and nuked my long fangs with the flyers, I was hosed.

Granted, next time we meet, I'll have a Skyshield, so eff those flyers, but anyone thinking of running a foot list outside of Terminators better think again if Heldrakes take off and anti-air is still a limited commodity.

How are you 'torn' after one game where your dice luck went completely against you?

I mean, that could happen in your first game against a Tyranid player, but you'd be hard pressed saying you're torn on saying the book was too powerful.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
I am eagerly awaiting the FAQ that clears up a couple of unclear rules... I also suspect at that point people will finally cease their whining because CSM will have had a few months experience under their belts.

Ironically (Tzeentch would be disappointed), Chaos players are surprisingly resistant to change. Also people have a tendency to forget that this is a casual game, not optimized for tournament play. Ork players seem to understand this, with all their randomness, but I don't know why everybody else is forgetting it. I think the majority of the outcry is coming from:
A) People who had a wishlist or particular idea that wasn't fulfilled (such as Alpha Legion fans, people who wanted Abaddon to make Chaos Terminators as troops, etc).
B) People who wanted the CSM codex to be the next over-powered and broken codex so that they could use it to WAAC.
C) Players who were already dissatisfied with 6E in general, so each subsequent codex in 6E will likely not measure up either.

Its funny how people complained about 4E CSM being nothing more than SM with spikes on them, but now that we have a decently-flavorful codex with the slightest bit of randomness thrown in (and nothing quite as potentially devastating as a raging Chaos Dreadnought) people are up in arms.

No, it is not a Ward codex, so it is not meant to break the game. It is not meant to be the new bandwagon codex for everybody to jump on and expect to win tournaments with. It is the start of a bright new future: a future of 6E Codexes that are balanced, fun, and make for memorable gaming experiences. I can't wait for the first time my Abaddon model gets replaced by a Spawn. It'll be hilarious.

Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

I get the impression a lot of people "like" it because it is a fairly weak codex with no surprises or undercosted units. Remember there are a lot more people playing against the codex than there are people using it.

If I played GK, Necrons, Guard, Space wolves, Blood Angels, etc I'd "like" it too. One more codex you won't have to worry much about. It will slide right down the competition level to meet up with tyranids and sisters of battle.

 Skriker wrote:
You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list.

Or don't even use the entries in the list. Howsabout this for creative? If you want to play Alpha Legion use C:IG or C:GK with SM allies and "counts as".

I said it when the last codex was released and I'll say it again. If you have to resort to "counts as" in order to use the army your codex is supposed to represent... it's time to move on to a more suitable codex. Really, what is there in the Chaos codex that makes it any more representative of Alpha Legion than the GK codex? Other than the name on the tin?

Puscifer wrote:
I like the new book.

Every legion is playable, but not necessarily good. It just takes imagination to use other units in the dex as counts as. The use of Huron as an Alpha Legion Warlord is a fine example.

It just seems that some players wanted an easy way out with cut and paste rules for each legion. Hell, I want a Night Lords army to all have fear and night vision, but I can't. Best thing to do? Pay the 1 point that night vision is worth per model, pay for the banner that gives them fear and ask your opponents permission if you can use them.

See... not op, fluffy and not difficult to arrange.

Dakka should have a topic stating some recommended ways to use your legion in the new dex. I would welcome it, if it stopped a lot of the moaning from some players.

Or stop trying to use the new dex. If they didn't include rules for your army just find a codex that did. Why Chaos legion players feel they have to use Codex: Chaos Space Marines to represent their Chaos Space Marines when clearly the codex was in no way designed to do so is beyond me. GW puts out so many loyalists codices it's hard not to stumble upon one which better represents your MEq faction of choice.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I think its pretty much widely accepted that neither Primarch is dead, as every Legionairre is called "Alpharius".

Old fluff. I heard that after the retconn all Alpha Legionaires are now called "Abaddon".

 Testify wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:

There are what......six different SM codecies? Weird that I thought it would be a cool idea to differentiate between Chaos legions huh? And as a dedicated BT player I am the wrong guy to be talking to about GW caring for their customer base. Troll onward Battle Brother!

So you want specific codexes. You can't use the "GW only care about ultrasmurfs" line, then accuse me of trolling, THEN claim that you want GW to put 6 codex's worth of material into one book.

If they somehow manage to fill 6 books with 1 codex's worth of material why can't they work it the other way?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
And it was broken as feth. Your point is?

My question is, of what relevance is its ability to be abused to the fact that it had distinct rules and background for each Traitor Legion?

Relatively little.

I'd argue that it matters quite a bit. The argument was that it can be done with as little as one page of rules per Legion, and uses the 3.5 'dex as evidence of this. The fact that the 3.5 edition Codex was pretty balls-to-the-walls insane serves as a good counter-argument to why such an approach to the Legion rules might not be the most optimal.

They could have covered ALL the legions in a little box that took up a quarter page.

Any unit with the "Veterans of the Long War" special rule may take one of the following options:

In Midnight Clad: unit gains Fear and Night Vision
The Iron Within: unit gains Tank Hunters, need not accept challenges
The Chosen Sons: unit gains Zealot if within 12" of a Dark Apostle
We Are Legion: exchange aspiring champion for a normal squad member, unit gains Infiltrate

So broken.

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have.

Thar she blows.

 lazarian wrote:

Forcemajeure wrote:
GW made a huge hype but did not deliver.

But the guy in my local game store was right about one thing when he convinced me to buy the codex.
"The hardback will look good on your bookshelf"


Edit: Spelling...

What hype? We are the ones trying to squeeze every ounce out of hearsay and rumors. The book is solid with new models, what more are you wanting aside from the aforementioned wishlisting every Chaos player wanted. The book does look nice, and if you impulse bought it without an army to go with it that is where it will stay unless you need reference. If you have a Chaos army then you got the current rules for said army.

You don't follow White Dwarf Daily do you? It is my primary source of information, as rumors is nothing more than rumors. I seldom browse through Dakka and spends most of my "warhammer-internet-time" on a forum in Swedish. GW fed us with updates about the new Chaos for weeks. How fun it would be, how you could take the legions to battle against the imperium and how; and i quote "this is the codex you ALL [my capslock] have been waiting for"

The book wasn't bought on impulse. I've waited for a reason to start a Thousand sons army for years. And it would be nice to have a codex on release day for once. I preordered it, a bit sceptical I admit ("buy a pig in a bag") but a preorder none the less. Whiteout comparing details with other codex publications, but IG, SM and Orks got solid works that you could play with. All the choices wasn't competitive: But you could still use them. The choices was yours to make. (The comparison to IG, SM and orks was made as those are the other armies I use and have experience with)

And please, is it possible to criticize a codex without being accused of whishlisting on this forum?

Tycho wrote:

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity. Like I said before, not in making the dex more powerful, but in making it more interesting. They could have done so much more with the Dark Apostle. Since they do seem to have intended one to use this codex in conjunction with the Demons and IG codexes, why wasn't the Dark Apostle used as more of a bridge to those? As he is written, there's no reason for him to be a HQ choice. He would have been much better off as an Elites choice. Same with the Warpsmith. Given that Demon Princes no longer lead legion armies and you now have to use your Lord or a special character to unlock the Cult units as troops, the Warpsmith is competeing in what has to be the most over-crowded HQ section of any army. It seems like it would have made more sense to have him function like the Tech Priest Engine Seer from the IG - outside the normal FOC set.

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

I started up chaos in 2008 to do horde-marines. This book is indeed what I wanted.

EDIT
horde, not hoard

count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

warpsmiths should have preferred enemy vehicles

dark apostles should be able to try to take ATSSNF away from a nearby enemy. (instead of shooting, may attempt to chant and create doubt in loyalists. either Ld check on 3d6 or loyalist Ld +d6 vs apostle Ld+d6) not something super reliable but the chance.

These are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for. None of that would cause the army to be "broken", and I don't think any of it is too out of line or far fetched either. I would just like to be able to take advantage of what my army has to offer without 2000pts, a double FOC AND allies. I'm hoping this isn't a
trend for future codexes (needing to play a full 2000 to get the new toys AND a playable army).

I really feel for tyranid players, we are in pretty much the same boat now, except they can actually build more fluffy lists.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm actually surprised by the poll, I've heard more complaints and gripes about the codex than positive things, yet there is an overwhelming amount of those who like it according to the numbers.

Actually this is standard for the internet. Generally the folks who are happy with something don't feel the need to make endless posts about that fact. Meanwhile those with an axe to grind and who hate something can't stop making endless posts about it. The poll results are unsurprising within the context of the internet.

Skriker

Ok I'll put my nurglings down for this and come out with some brutal honesty...I don't much like this sort of poll. Who cares who likes it and who doesn't? It only starts a big ass whining war between players.
Here's something, how about read it, realise how much more you're being given in this version, then adapt it to your play style and then enjoy it!

If you say you don't like it then you obviously haven't played it enough to make alterations to your armies in which to make it more effective, and tbh if you don't like it, stop playing chaos and move to something else and stop moaning!

Now here's my simple opinion as thats what this threads about, I LIKE the new book, its nice to have a full-colour hardback as your reference, I also like the pull-out reference sheet at the back so Kudos to GW for that handy little thing. Ok so I don't particulaly like that they increased Defiler points to 195 basic but ya know what? We did get away with cheap armour 12 LARGE BLAST destroyers for quite some time people so just take it on the chin.

And personally for me? I love being able to take Plague Zombies into the battle field, because that 100 points I've been saved by the new codex, just let me buy 2 squads of 10 zombies so my Nurgle army is looking pretty good right now

Rot in pieces

GalePrime aka Nurgle Command

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Too bad that we'll be languishing with a "balanced" codex while otherS sit tight for the next 5+ years with their current codex's that were released not to long ago (GK, CRONS, BA, SW, IG) and enjoy push button victories while we fight an up hill battle.

Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems

That is all

 Exergy wrote:
count as HQ but dont take a slot would have been nice, but I think chaos should have had major HQs and minor HQs. Lords, DP, Special characters, and high mastery sorcerers would be MAJOR HQs and take up a full slot. Warpsmiths, dark apostles, and low mastery sorcerers would have been MINOR HQs and could be taken 3 for one slot.

I have to admit that I would like to see options for HQ like in Fantasy, with Lords and then lesser characters, or as in the Daemons Codex, where the big boys take a full HQ slot and the not so big boys each take half a slot. Would add a lot more flexibility to the HQ side of equation for each force. Nowadays the low level captain takes up the same size force org chart as the chapter master does.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems

That is all

Ahhh so perspective is a strawman...whatever...doesn't change the fact that the perspective is true...

If the only counter you have is to call someone else's post a strawman then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on either, do you?

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:


Boo hoo! These conversations are a perfect example of 1st world problems. People who can afford to play this crazy expensive game in the first place are complaining as if their lives are over because of a stupid new codex for a fluff wargame. Really? Aside from those folks who still foolishly decide to buy minis instead of food, most of us hear can probably easily afford to keep ourselves fed, clothed and housed on a regular basis if we also have the money available to be buying GW's overpriced toys. Within the context of real life is this codex really all that big a deal? Not in the least. Can you still play 40k with your chaos marine army? Yes you can. Will it be a little different? Yes it will. Has the world ended? Not in the least.

If the worst thing that any of us have to deal with in the coming years is fighting uphill battles against those codecies that will supposedly give others push button victories, then I for one am going to be thrilled.

How about a little perspective, eh?

Skriker

"So you're pissed because some guy sideswiped your car and insurance refused to cover it on a technicality, busting your budget for this month. right? You entitled whiner! At this exact moment there are bangladeshi children gasping their last agony-wracked breath with FLIES in their eyes, wishing they could be in your shoes!"

Ah, perspective.