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As the title implies, I would like to see a clear cut view (at least on dakka) on how many people like the new codex and how many don't. People opinion on the mater have been discussed on previous threads but I would like to get a number count. I for one have voted no due to reasons listed in other threads.

Edit: For those who voted no and have ideas on how the book could have been improved I have a thread in the proposed rules section that could use imput http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481356.page

not GK, IG, Newcron power
hell not even SW power

limited options for anything other than black legion
really lacking for the fluff I want

It's better than the last book, but that's not saying much. It's a copy-paste of some fantasy rules, a couple pages worth of new units, and some rejiggering of unit options. It could have been done as a 3 page White Dwarf supplement. There's some good stuff to be fair, but Kelly whiffed it unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that had been fairly consistently asked for over the last 5 years by many chaos players through many different forums/venues/etc that simply didn't make it in, especially in regards to Terminators and Cults (as there still aren't proper Rubric/Plague/Noise/Berzerker terminators).

While overall the fluff is good, the pictures and print quality is great, as a game supplement, it's completely mediocre, and in large part suffers the same issues the previous book did (lots of Must Take/Don't Take stuff/useless options/etc), in addition to tossing in a whole lot of unnecessary Ld nerfs. While the change in Marks/Icons is a step in the right direction, it's a lame-polio-afflicted step.

For a book that should be the most varied, wild, and option filled codex in the game, it certainly doesn't live up to its promise. Better than the last book to be sure, but then, that's not exactly much of a feat.

Reading the book it felt to me that they were trying to fit it all into as few pages as possible, for a £30 book they could of atleast have given all the units there own page in the Lost and Dammed section. I also dislike that there are no new named characters.The Scions of Chaos part in my opinion was very good and showed some really nice models. They art in the book is very nice especially the Luna Wolf on page 6.

I think the book is quite a bit better than the old one, but there could have been done a lot more to improve it unit wise. I don't get the people complaining that they wanted a book that beat GK in powerlevel, because that way, we will never get closer to a balanced game.

Well, I don't have it yet but I like what I've read so far. For this, I will undust my EC army and bring it to one of the next RTTs soon.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's better than the last book, but that's not saying much. It's a copy-paste of some fantasy rules, a couple pages worth of new units, and some rejiggering of unit options. It could have been done as a 3 page White Dwarf supplement. There's some good stuff to be fair, but Kelly whiffed it unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff that had been fairly consistently asked for over the last 5 years by many chaos players through many different forums/venues/etc that simply didn't make it in, especially in regards to Terminators and Cults (as there still aren't proper Rubric/Plague/Noise/Berzerker terminators).

While overall the fluff is good, the pictures and print quality is great, as a game supplement, it's completely mediocre, and in large part suffers the same issues the previous book did (lots of Must Take/Don't Take stuff/useless options/etc), in addition to tossing in a whole lot of unnecessary Ld nerfs. While the change in Marks/Icons is a step in the right direction, it's a lame-polio-afflicted step.

For a book that should be the most varied, wild, and option filled codex in the game, it certainly doesn't live up to its promise. Better than the last book to be sure, but then, that's not exactly much of a feat.

Hate to agree, but this was a big "miss" for me as well.

No Legion rules. What took ONE PAGE per legion in 3.5 is still being omitted - why? Renegades or nothing. Weak
Daemon Princes. Slightly improved statline, but MASSIVE price increase. To get the same survivability of my old cheap Khorne DP it now costs 80 points more - over 50% more. "Flying" is not that good. Even worse for nurgle players who dont get T6, or Tzeentch without a 4++. Weak.

Oh, and they dont unlock cults as troops any longer. Very, very weak. Apparently not a single DP has ever lead the remnants of a legion, according to GW. Very weak

Bezerkers - essentially an increase in points, a drop in attacks in the second round onwards, and slight benefit IF you take an icon that can get shot out. You do get to say "feth you" to eldar though.

Noise marines - weak ass salvo rule, meaning while the weapons are cheaper you havce to lose an attack in order to take them (cannot take a CCW) and they have the weakassss Salvo rule, meaning if you move youre not shooting beyond 12". Weak

Terminators - increase in points, by 2 (you will never NOT take veterans), but at least marks are reasonably priced now. Meh

Bikes - insanely cheap. 13 point per model drop in price, and marks are cheap. Only big win if you like bikes.

Land raider - went up by 10 points, for no discernible reason. Still no sign of our missing PotMS, missing for 2 books now.

Daemonic possession - why is this now a 2+ ignore stunned shaken, not ignores by default? Cannot be put on non-tanks, so you cant keep CC dreadnoughts (sorry helbrutes) going. Oh, and despite saying they dont want to put negatives in, as costing is too difficult, it RANDOMLY eats a model. So you wont see them on LR, just in case it eats your lord. Lame

Helbrutes - up by a minimum of 5, but really 10 as you no longer get a built in combi bolter. Flamers gone up by 10 points. On an av12 vehilce that, thanks to the HP rule, is STILL never getting to combat.

Oblits - absurdly, 3.5ed cheap. 76 points for true T5? Yes. Gained the heavy flamer back from 3.5, and finally have an assault cannon. Win.

Overall?

Meh. I have waited 5 years to be excited about the army that got me into 40k, and I am truly disappointed. BIG miss by PK

Even by fluff standards the codex is bad. Special characters should be imune from the spawn/daemon prince rolls on the boon table, because Abbadon turning into a gibbering chaos spawn for killing a 15pt no name sargent is totally fluffy....and cinematic.

I don't like it. I did, a bit, when I first looked through it. It has some improvements over 4th, but the more I read it the more faults and omissions and restrictions I see.

Marks sytem has improved. Two-tier system of marks + icons could have been a big win, but some of the special rules they provide are useless (poor Tzeentch).

Not all the legions can be played in a way that matches the fluff, that's the most damning flaw. Warpsmith and Dark Apostle make a welcome return, which is a big bonus for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but Night Lords and Alpha legion are now even worse off than in 4th edition codex. There is NO excuse for any style of Chaos army to be even worse portrayed now than during 4th. All it would have taken is more accesible options for Fear, Infiltrate and Jump Packs, maybe for Chosen, but alas, that was apparently too much to ask. I don't know quite why this bugs me so much, since I play Black Legion anyway, it just seems shoddy. Like they can't be bothered. And i feel a lot of sympathy for the Chaos players who want decent rules for their legions, because the past 2 Chaos books haven't done a good job of representing the full range of legions.

Emperor's Children got a kick in the teeth. You have to have ten in a squad to access blast masters, therefore making it impossible to have a well-armed unit of six Noise Marines (Slaanesh's sacred number).

It's true that Chaos now has more options available for taking demons, and traitor guard, making Word Bearers, World Eaters, Death guard, and Iron Warriors better off than before, but this is due solely to the new allies rules, NOT the new codex.

New Daemon Engines are a pointless addition, and I don't like the models. Personal taste, I know, but you are asking my opinion.

I could go on, and on, but it's a bit redundent. They only needed to do a few more things. Give slightly more powerful rules for some of the marks. Allow more special rules options for certain units. Refrain from slapping pointless restrictions on certain units. It's frustrating that they could have easily given us something better, more varied, had a perfect opportunity to but chose not to because... why? There seems to be no discernable reason.

Overall I like it.

It provides flexibility and generally at a competitive cost.

What I don't like though is a lot.
1. The purpose troops: Berzerkers, Plague Marines, 1000 sons and Emp Children are too pricey.
2. The daemon engines are boring.
3. The dragon - Hate, Hate, HATE!!! Why not a fighter at a reasonable cost?
4. No drop pods????
5. A new plastic lord but finecrap obliterators? Come on!!!

It's a good list; it fairly rebalances the parts of the old Codex that didn't make any sense, adds some cool new things, and all in all makes units people never used before pretty useful. People never used to take Raptors or Noise Marines, they've become useful; the new units look awesome and are pretty solid on the tabletop; and the flavor of the third edition Chaos book before fourth edition came along and shelved every other Chaos faction in favor of the Black Legion has returned (Cultists, useful Raptors, better Marks/Icons, Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles, et cetera). The book isn't without it's flaws (personally I would have liked a plastic Hell Blade instead of or in addition to the dragon), but it's a marked improvement over the old book.

It never occurred to me that a Special Character, like abbadon or typhus could turn into a Chaos Spawn or daemon prince. That does seem a bit silly. If Abbadon is the collective chosen one of the four gods, why let him turn into a Chaos Spawn? I have to say that that's something in the codex that I'm not fond of at all, especially with the requirement that they challenge or accept a challenge. It's a slim chance, yes, but a sacrifice of a 15 point Sergeant that I'd gladly roll the dice on.

its not bad , but rather boring to play with . kind of a sad that most of the new stuff doesnt realy get much play time , unless one starts to play 2000 points. I wish we played that more , but all marine players wants game to cap at 1500 to stop IG and necron from being good.

My feelings on it are summed up in a different thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/480732.page

But basically for me it's just kind of "meh". There's nothing that really makes me feel like I have to get it because of how cool it is, and there are a lot of missed opportunities (imo anyway) for more creativity. I'm glad that it does appear to be a balanced codex, but I was just hoping for a little more craziness. Better rules for the Dark Apostle for example. It also bothers me that so much of the list is taken up by HQ and Elites slots. This kind of forces you to play 2000 pts. to take full advantage of the new slots, and 2000pt games are super rare where I am.

So really, I won't be shelving my Chaos army, but I will not be updating it too much either. I will add in some cultists and then adjust my existing list for things that are no longer legal according to the new 'dex, but that's about it.

This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

See, that's just it though. Speaking for myself, I didn't need to see too many old options coming back, and I really didn't even want it to be 2nd ed revisited. I was just hoping for a little more out of the the things they DID include. The nice thing about the dex is that it allows me to play my existing army without too much pain in restructuring. That's a good thing. The issue for me is that there's nothing that makes me WANT to change or add to my army too much beyond what it was previously. I just felt like on the creative side of things, they could have pushed it just slightly further. Not as in making it more powerful or anything like that, but just setting it up better with the fluff. I don't know that it's necessarily outright bad, but for me, it's really not that great either.

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 lazarian wrote:
This poll is misleading. Chaos is the 'Great White Whale' for the people who play the army. Every negative person about the new book wanted something, something they can never have. As an army book its more than fine, it just doesn't happen to be the dozens of incarnations they pseudo-remember from the past. The people who voted yes see this as a worthy book, the people who voted no will vote no regardless of what was released.

I'd still love my 2nd edition Khorne Lord who was rather unkillable.. hes not coming back, nor are the myriad other options which were too cluttered. Gamers have to realize and accept that all the options they want are not going to be packed into a 500 page codex, they give you tools and only the most pedantic of us would be unable to craft the army they want.

Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

If you cant make an Alpha Legion army then I'm very sorry, my brother is making one so he would be confused by your comment. 'Alpha Legion' doesn't mean everyone has to be ninjas and infiltrate. Hes allying with an outflanking Guard platoon to give him the mobility and trickyness. He is also debating using Huron to guarantee some infiltrating. Plus there is something to be said for just painting the army and setting it up.

If you cant make an Alpha Legion army then I'm very sorry, my brother is making one so he would be confused by your comment. 'Alpha Legion' doesn't mean everyone has to be ninjas and infiltrate. Hes allying with an outflanking Guard platoon to give him the mobility and trickyness. He is also debating using Huron to guarantee some infiltrating. Plus there is something to be said for just painting the army and setting it up.

And that might be my personal biggest issue with the new dex. I'm more excited about using things from my Gaurd codex than I am about anything new from my Chaos codex. For some reason that just feels wrong ...

There should be another option,

"ambivalent"

Honestly I don't particularly care for it any more or any less than the old 4th edition codex, and it really feels incredibly similar to that book as well.

looking at the big rulebook, I don't think CSM was even meant to be a stand alone codex. They seem like a book that is designed to play along side chaos daemons- or at least guard to create a truly thematic looking army.

Sure if has a lot of options if you play the "chaos rainbow" but a lot of people want to build legion specific builds, or worship a specific chaos god. In which case they will always feel extremely limited unless they ally with Chaos Daemons, to get the corresponding options from that book too.

As has been said all over, it would really have been nice to have marks unlock new wargear options to help personalize things.

so I don't like it, but I don't dislike it either. I am ambivalent.

Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Even by fluff standards the codex is bad. Special characters should be imune from the spawn/daemon prince rolls on the boon table, because Abbadon turning into a gibbering chaos spawn for killing a 15pt no name sargent is totally fluffy....and cinematic.

It *is* chaotic, though. That was always the nature of chaos in the beginning. You build your army from one of the Chaos hardbacks and then apply rolls for chaos attributes and your 400 point mega character could become a completely useless and stupid mutant combo completely beyond your control. It is what made chaos amusing to play. You never quite knew if you were going to get the "uber mutation combo" or the "sucko mutation combo". I am amused again to see it come back into play.

That was also in the day when a bloodthirster cost 1250 points and even trying to kill a lesser daemon with a shooting weapon was a very hard thing to do.

Skriker

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

If you paint the models and set them up you have made an Alpha Legion army... Tada! Or how about this, take your general and let the warlord trait roll determine what 'special' mission your going on, add some roleplaying and bring some of this to your table top. You don't need to have the rules babysit it for you. Alpha Legion is about plans within plans, bring that to your tabletop and stop looking for a handout of rules to do the heavy lifting for you.

If you want your special super secret mission to include infiltrators/outflankers then you have to take those options. It might be messy but they exist.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble. Having played and owned every incarnation of Chaos rules since Rogue Trader the only one that allowed you to do the silliness most wishlisters were wanting was that 3.5 book. Until most people realize how much of a mistake that book was there will always be these issues.

Why do most people not pine for the 3.0 book? Its boring but it was earlier rules, why isnt there 'Chaos has been ruined since 2003' comments instead of 2007? Its all goalpost moving sets of rules. Or how about the 2nd edition rules which was a horribly weak army that included one powerful character but was whipped away by shurikan catapults?

Why is it that people think Chaos hasn't been 'Chaos' since the most broken incarnation of their rules? The book you now have is golden and competetive. It wont do everything you want just like C:SM wont shoehorn every chapter idea you have in your head. You have to meet it halfway. Will Necrons or Grey Knights feel this way when they have a more deflating experience on their next book?

 Spartan089 wrote:
Alpha legion players would like to have a word with you.

Why? You can't play alpha legion without a bunch of special rules added just for them? In the past people picked and played their chapter based on the story of the chapter and the colors they wanted to paint and play with. Now it is all about the special rules and if they don't exist you somehow *can't* play that chapter. Really? To me this bespeaks of a lack of imagination in current players. Alpha legion has gotten more mileage since they started with the Horus Heresy series and their role there, but the only thing that an alpha legion army cannot specifically do on the tabletop is infiltrate. They are still a chaos marine legion that also still fights on the battle field too. If the legion is infiltrating a planet to bring it to compliance from the inside out there shouldn't be a major battle going on. When that fails the forces meet on the battlefield, so the legion doesn't need to be sneaky and infiltrating there specifically.

Skriker

A massive "meh."

The return of the armory seemed pointless and somewhat lazy, it's an annoyance not having the unit options on the page. Removal of the Daemon Weapons from the 4th Edition Codex seemed pointless and the Daemon Prince has revived a pointless Nerf.

Some new toys have been added, but rarely do these units make up for the fact the Codex is a mediocre one.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity. Like I said before, not in making the dex more powerful, but in making it more interesting. They could have done so much more with the Dark Apostle. Since they do seem to have intended one to use this codex in conjunction with the Demons and IG codexes, why wasn't the Dark Apostle used as more of a bridge to those? As he is written, there's no reason for him to be a HQ choice. He would have been much better off as an Elites choice. Same with the Warpsmith. Given that Demon Princes no longer lead legion armies and you now have to use your Lord or a special character to unlock the Cult units as troops, the Warpsmith is competeing in what has to be the most over-crowded HQ section of any army. It seems like it would have made more sense to have him function like the Tech Priest Engine Seer from the IG - outside the normal FOC set.

Then we got Raptors and Demon Raptors. That's two seperate entries that really could have been combined so that one became an upgrade for the other. More over-crowding and redundancy. I think there are good things as well - like the points drop for regular Marines, but over-all to me it just feels like they wanted this codex to be played at 2000pts using a dual FOC AND allies to really be complete. That's what really bothers me.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

Ummm...if you are are using Huron as a "counts as" character then it already *is* in the codex. The book can't include every possible special character for every chapter possible out there. So they give you a representative sample to achieve what you want to achieve with your army by naming them something else. This is the specific reason behind the concept of counts as with special characters in the first place. This is called the codex working as intended.

Skriker

 lazarian wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
Because it is wrong, you shouldn't have to use a count as houron or allies to fix something that should be in the codex.

If you paint the models and set them up you have made an Alpha Legion army... Tada! Or how about this, take your general and let the warlord trait roll determine what 'special' mission your going on, add some roleplaying and bring some of this to your table top. You don't need to have the rules babysit it for you. Alpha Legion is about plans within plans, bring that to your tabletop and stop looking for a handout of rules to do the heavy lifting for you.

If you want your special super secret mission to include infiltrators/outflankers then you have to take those options. It might be messy but they exist.

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble. Having played and owned every incarnation of Chaos rules since Rogue Trader the only one that allowed you to do the silliness most wishlisters were wanting was that 3.5 book. Until most people realize how much of a mistake that book was there will always be these issues.

Why do most people not pine for the 3.0 book? Its boring but it was earlier rules, why isnt there 'Chaos has been ruined since 2003' comments instead of 2007? Its all goalpost moving sets of rules. Or how about the 2nd edition rules which was a horribly weak army that included one powerful character but was whipped away by shurikan catapults?

Why is it that people think Chaos hasn't been 'Chaos' since the most broken incarnation of their rules? The book you now have is golden and competetive. It wont do everything you want just like C:SM wont shoehorn every chapter idea you have in your head. You have to meet it halfway. Will Necrons or Grey Knights feel this way when they have a more deflating experience on their next book?

Except Necrons and GK will enjoy their codex for a few more years... not to mension many of the complaints players had about the previous renditions of those codex' were answered in the new ones. However for this one it was not case, things chaos players were asking for, for years, were ignored. Hell space wolves has more diversity than the new chaos codex. And our book is not golden nor competitive as far as I can see. More or less its the same as the last book, and that book stoped being largely competitive half way through 5th edition and we had lash prince and fearless obliterators back then which we don't even have now nor do I see anything in the book that replaces or gives us an edge in the current format.

Tycho wrote:

Take a look at the wishlisting everyone wants for Chaos, not just in this thread. If you threw all that in you would have a broken codex in a far greater degree than the Necro/GK/IG rabble.

Actually, I haven't seen too many people wanting it to be broken. To me it just seems like people wanted more creativity.

The point wasn't people wanted it to be broken, but that everyone wanted their favorite wish list items included and if *everyone's* wishlist items were included it would *be* broken. We can't all get what we want. You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list. Creativity is for the player to implement in their list and doesn't need a bunch of rules spelled out for creativity to exist. I find it more interesting when people work outside the box with a codex then have to have it all listed out for them before they'll do it. Having everything spelled out is about as creative and interesting as yet another khorne CSM army that only has berserkers in it. Yay... Khorne is just as happy to get skulls from those masses of troops ripped down by autocannon fire as by chopping them into little bits with CCWs. Much cooler to see "berserkers" used in a completely non-khorne related army to represent hard hitting assault troops of a different type. THAT is creativity.

Skriker

The point wasn't people wanted it to be broken, but that everyone wanted their favorite wish list items included and if *everyone's* wishlist items were included it would *be* broken. We can't all get what we want. You want creativity, but then others in the thread complain when you actually have to be creative yourself when using the entries in the list. Creativity is for the player to implement in their list and doesn't need a bunch of rules spelled out for creativity to exist. I find it more interesting when people work outside the box with a codex then have to have it all listed out for them before they'll do it. Having everything spelled out is about as creative and interesting as yet another khorne CSM army that only has berserkers in it. Yay... Khorne is just as happy to get skulls from those masses of troops ripped down by autocannon fire as by chopping them into little bits with CCWs. Much cooler to see "berserkers" used in a completely non-khorne related army to represent hard hitting assault troops of a different type. THAT is creativity.

Actually, the complaints I've seen appear to be fairly homogenous, and no, I don't think it would have caused the Codex to be broken. I actually haven't seen one single thing suggested that would have really made it broken. This was never a codex (excluding the insane 2nd ed dex and the 3rd ed dex which I know nothing about) that was going to be a Grey Knights level of stupid and I don't think there's much they could have done to push it there either.

Your point about being creative without needing specific rules is well made and well taken. I think the point here is that with this codex it seems like you HAVE to think "outside the box" to do things that probably should have been much easier than they currently are. There are just a lot of unnecessary restrictions and drawbacks that interfere with that type of thing right now. It feels like you are fighting your own codex in order to be able to do fairly simple things that have been asked for for years.

Personally thuogh, I think most of the people who are disappointed with it feel that way because it really is sooooooo similar to what we already had. Someone else mentioned this codex could almost have just been a 3/4 page White Dwarf update and that's unfortunately pretty close to accurate.