Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

Sounds like a job for "Multiple Modifiers" on page 2 of the BRB.

Short answer: Str9

Just wasn't sure which way to go with the modifiers, as the model becomes S5 pre-game then doubles Strength when B2B with the intended victim.

Pretty sure the boons alter the base stat of the Lord (though it is not definitely confirmed in the rules either way), in which case it would be S10.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Pretty sure the boons alter the base stat of the Lord (though it is not definitely confirmed in the rules either way), in which case it would be S10.

I would have to agree here, albeit I don't know the wording, it sounds like the Boon alters the S characteristic to S5 which would then be S10....


Iranna.

For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

Objection, explicit exception in the GK Codex, with a lack of one anywhere else means you can't use it as an example.

rigeld2 wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

Objection, explicit exception in the GK Codex, with a lack of one anywhere else means you can't use it as an example.

I agree it is a single and probably the only example. But still it is one. For the topic itself i would say s10 because i think the boon changes the characteristic of the charcter.

Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

So +1S isnt a modifier now?

Odd

Page 2 has the answer, as already given.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
For the 6 years i have playing nothing has ever buffed an stat line before being able to multiply it so I don't think GW would change their policy on this however I might be wrong. At the end of the day I think must people will go with the Str9

I would like to show the entire GK codex against that statement. Hammering people with str 10 hammers for years now(or 1 ).

but hammerhand is a temporary modifier and added after the hammer, which always doubles your str in combat. Just like furious charge and a power claw.

boon is a permenent modifier while murder sword is temporary.


also both FC, hammerhand make you strike at +1 str while a klaw or hammer makes your strike at sx2 while the boon table changes your characteristic. So if you had to take a Str check, like from the newcron portal of exile, you could use your booned strenght, but not your hammerhanded or powerfisted strength.

 Exergy wrote:
but hammerhand is a temporary modifier and added after the hammer, which always doubles your str in combat. Just like furious charge and a power claw.

Unless otherwise stated you follow mathematical operations (PEMDAS). AFAIK the only exception is hammerhand which specifically specifies it is added before multiplying.

Nope.jpg

Nevermind.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

This. Changing a stat is not the same as a modifier. Definitions matter, str 10

Page 2 disagrees with you. +1 to a stat is a modifier.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Sounds like the strength bonus given by a thunderwolf mount that gave SW str10 thunderhammers and powerfists.

This. Changing a stat is not the same as a modifier. Definitions matter, str 10

Thunderwolves are a bit of an exception. Thunerwolf mount p62 of the codex, lists the modifiers due to a thunderwolf as changes to the profile. This is different to the way in which every other modifier is dealt with in the game even hammerhand. This is a base stat not a modifier, the reason we know this is that thunderwolves always start the game with S5, whereas the chaos champion will start the next game at his baseline not with that +1 S.

So chaos character that has +1 S is a situation of (4x2)+1 not like a thunderwolf 5x2 when it comes to working out their strength when it's doubled.

What makes this different in any way from a DC man with a pf?

Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

The table is also rolled on if you win a challenge (champion of chaos).

You can also cast the Tzeentch Boon Power to roll on the table.

It would have to apply the same in all cases.

 Tarrasq wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Aren't the Gift of Mutations calculated before the game starts anyways?

-Roll on table
-Incur bonus from table
-Add multiplier from weapon
-Your end result for the rest of the game ?

The table is also rolled on if you win a challenge (champion of chaos).

You can also cast the Tzeentch Boon Power to roll on the table.

It would have to apply the same in all cases.

But Gift of Mutation and Boon of Mutation are named differently because one occurs before the game begins no?

I understand that the table may be rerolled in the future because of Challenges and the Tzeentch specific ability, but that should simply be added to what ever your current profile is, no?

Grey Knights, pg 25, state they get +1 Strength, which happens before modifiers.

Furious Charge, pg 37, says the model receives +1 to its strength characteristic.

Space Wolves, pg62, says +1 strength to the model's profile.

Chaos Marines merely state +1 strength, with nothing else. it is unlike any of the others in wording. I would think it would go after modifiers, as if it didn't they would have put something like with Marks tidbit that state the models with the mark have those rules, even if their entry doesn't say so. Really was hoping in 6th rulebook fAQ they would have made it like toughness so that everyone would get it, but no its seems to be an Imperial thing... BS.

Again, it is the very definition of a modifier, so you follow the rules for multiple modifiers. There is no argument otherwise that doesnt just ignore the rules on page 2 without any rule based reason

I'd roll with it as a modifier RAW. But I'd play it as a perma increase like the rest of the stat mods in the boon list.

To reiterate what has already been said, the correct assessment is (4x2)+1. This order of operation was put in place partly due to the old Striking Scorpion Exarch in the 3rd Edition Eldar Codex who would have struck with a strength ten Scorpion's Claw otherwise. (Strength 4 x 2) + Crushing Blow

It was also partly done due to 3.5 Chaos Codex; although to be fair a S10 fist would have been the last thing from that book you would have to be worried about. A dark-blade and many gifts generally proved all you needed.

This (among other things) was sent up to the GW FAQ team, to clarify if the benefits change the actual profile stat or are treated as modifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meanwhile if we take the modifier route, then the model starts as S4 when selected from the codex... gets bumped to S5 pre-game via Gift of Mutation... gets B2B with intended victim... instantly drops down to S4... doubles to S8... then adds one to become S9 ???

strange :-/

No, he is S4+1, so then S4x2+1

So a CSM Biker is T5 but a Chaos Lord with Bike is T4+1 ?

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
So a CSM Biker is T5 but a Chaos Lord with Bike is T4+1 ?

No when on a bike he increases his toughness characteristic by 1, not +1 toughness.
Furious charge on the other hand says adds +1 to strength characteristic. A clear modifier in that case.

Similar I will grant you but very different because for a biker khorne lord a toughness test would be on T5 while a strength test would be on S4 even if he just charged.(Unless it wasn't an unmodified S test.)

Pretty simple to answer, does the boon make your lord strength 5 at all times or just during the assault phase. If it is +1 strength and there is no activator then it would be s10. All the other examples of modifiers being used have set activations and are not a permanent increase for the game. Hammerhand during assault with a psychic test, furious charge on a charge, etc. If someone tries telling you different just nod, smile, and tell them you'd rather not play them.

BloodKnight82 wrote:
Pretty simple to answer, does the boon make your lord strength 5 at all times or just during the assault phase. If it is +1 strength and there is no activator then it would be s10. All the other examples of modifiers being used have set activations and are not a permanent increase for the game. Hammerhand during assault with a psychic test, furious charge on a charge, etc. If someone tries telling you different just nod, smile, and tell them you'd rather not play them.

Hmm might wanna read pg 2 as I nod and smile at ya than.

Modifiers, than Multiple Modifiers.

They don't care about activations, or that they take place whenever. As long as they are a modifier at all.

The difference is a temporary modifier or a change in the profile, nice try though. If i get mutated to have +1 stregth its not some of the time but all of the time. When you do modifiers you start with what is on the profile, as I have gotten my boon my base strength is now 5 not 4+1 whenever I need to add or multiply something, this is not a strength boosting item but a complete change to the basic profile.

BloodKnight82 wrote:
The difference is a temporary modifier or a change in the profile, nice try though. If i get mutated to have +1 stregth its not some of the time but all of the time. When you do modifiers you start with what is on the profile, as I have gotten my boon my base strength is now 5 not 4+1 whenever I need to add or multiply something, this is not a strength boosting item but a complete change to the basic profile.

If it states it gives +1 strength it's a modifier.
If it's a modifier you must follow the rules for them.

Its not a modifier, its a change to the profile. There's no piece of equipment or situation that "modifies" the number. The new strength characteristic is inherent to the model. 6th edition also did away with the parenthetical silliness and simplified things. Changes to base stats are now the stat.

Chaos Boons are permanent changes to the model's stat line, they aren't a "modifier", as are increases from Marks of Chaos. Models with the Mark "have" +1 to their stat, this is not situational, nor can the Mark be removed from the model during normal game play, as it is an integral part of the model. Similarly, stat increases from mounts and bikes also become part of a model's base statistics (owing to removal of parenthetical silliness in the 6th edition).

This is unlike Furious Charge, for example, which would modify the stat only during the first round of the charge. Using a Power Mace's +2S would also count as a modifier, as it applies only when the model chooses to use that particular weapon in close combat and is attached to that equipment usage. The temporary powers of the Possessed would also fall into the "modifier" category, being temporarily granted in a situation.

However, some equipment, such as the aforementioned bike or Fabius Bile's Chirurgeon, for example, are always "on" regardless of usage or situation and become an inherent part of the model's stat line.

In 5th edition, I would buy the argument that boons are modifiers and would make a model's stats look like 4(5) or whatever. In 6th, this is no longer the case.

where does it say that

"25 Strength of the Berzerke r: Power flows into the champion.
The champion has + 1 Strength." pg 29 C:CSM

Where does it say it's a change to the profile?

It says +1 Str.

"certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristis positively or negatively by adding to it (+1,+2, etc)"
Pg 2 BRB Modifiers

"For example, if a model with str 4 has both '+1str' and 'double str', its final str is 9 "
Pg 2 BRB Multiple Modifiers

I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

I don't understand how people are getting this (4x2)+1 equation it seems to me that the effect of the role is added to base stats.

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Q: Is the +1 Toughness from a Thunderwolf Mount considered bonus
Toughness, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 4(5), or is it a modification
to the base characteristic, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 5? (p62)
A: Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base
characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined
profile with Toughness 5. This is because the Toughness value
represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the
Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more
impressive than even a member of the Astartes). It is not just
an enhanced Toughness for the Space Marine, as with a Space
Marine bike. After all, a Space Marine bike cannot react on its
own, and is useless without a rider, whereas a giant monstrous
wolf is still a tough customer!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
I don't understand how people are getting this (4x2)+1 equation it seems to me that the effect of the role is added to base stats.

Simply because as defined by the BGB on pg 2 it's a modifier, than we follow the rules for multiple modifiers also located on pg 2.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

if your murder sword has procced to give you *2 strength it also has ID. Why do you need Str10. Are you trying to pen a land raider that is convienently next to your targeted character or a wraithlord that is T8

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I'd clearly read it as a modifier, but then again, I'd read Thunderwolf mount strength boon to be a modifier too, but it apparently is not? So I have no clue.

Interestingly enough they still have this old part up even after adding the this T (X) is the model's toughness

Yeah, that seems outdated... What it says about the strength?

Doesn't say anything, however I've only used a wolf lord w/ Klaw.
Never tried to push an issue, that said though looks like a modifier w/ str. so TH lord would only be Str 9.

T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

The FAQ acknowledges Toughness, the +1 is a modifier according to the definition set forth by the BGB, so therefore you would also need to apply the rules set forth in multiple modifiers, making it S9.

The thunderwolf mount adds +1S, +1T and +1A to the profile. Not just a +1.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
[T Lord with pf is S10. The buffs of a thunderwolf are added to the base profile as per the rule and the faq.

To be fair that wasn't ever addressed really. The FAQ only mentions toughness, as I recall, and the rule itself wouldn't indicate otherwise. However most people use the toughness bit of the FAQ to call RAI and imply that the strength is buffed to 5. Most TOs, all that I've seen, have ruled it as such so while I have never liked that interpretation I go along with it.* On the topic of the boon however, it could go either way. No party here can prove undoubtedly that it is one way or another, though the argument that it is simply a modifier has more weight. Wait for a GW FAQ, if you can't as you care for an up coming tournament or some such ask the TO, in a friendly game simply ask your opponent, or just D6 it. I myself would advise just playing it as strength 9, as most of the time it won't matter and if it changes later you end up better.

*= Don't know if more official word came out on that or not, as last I checked it wasn't ever officially FAQed, ergo not RAW.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The thunderwolf mount adds +1S, +1T and +1A to the profile. Not just a +1.

OK so it adds modifiers, now follow the rules for them.
Than go to multiple modifiers, follow those rules.

You get a Lord+ TMC + TH that resolves attacks at Str 9

FAQ says that +1 strength from the wolf is a modification to the base characteristic? What does this even mean? Technically it would still be a modifier, but I don't think that's the intent.

In any case, I'd say that chaos boons and the wolf mount should work similarly, whatever that ends up being. They are both permanent bonuses.

However, it is an odd to have a clear rules for modifiers stacking, and then have some stuff that randomly breaks that rule.

It's actually not in the FAQ for the str, however in the Codex it states to "add +1 Strength, +1 toughness, +1attack to his profile"
PG 62 C: Space Wolves (Thunderwolf Mount)

Clearly these are modifiers by definition. As such they have to follow the rules for them.

For those of you trying to argue they change the statline, cool modifiers do that by doing +1 to stat. Even setting the value is considered a modifier in 6th.

It is in the FAQ:

"Q: Is the +1 Strength from Tunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic? (p62)
A: Yes"

Sorry it's S10.

Q: Is the+1 Strength from a Thunderwolf mount a modification to the base characteristic?(p62)
A: Yes.

Thanks Crimson, ninja's again.

So unless you have specific permission from an FAQ or it's stated to be a modifier to the profile any +1 to S is a modifier.

Nope, 9. That question just makes it a modifier... Which, in 6th, has specific implications.

 Exergy wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Played a game yesterday and this situation came up = my Chaos Lord rolled +1 Strength from Gift of Mutation...when he finally made it into close combat with his "victim" is he striking at S9 or S10 ?

if your murder sword has procced to give you *2 strength it also has ID. Why do you need Str10. Are you trying to pen a land raider that is convienently next to your targeted character or a wraithlord that is T8

At game-time when it happened it had both myself and my opponent thinking about the correct strength that should be used, but since you mention it - if the nominated character was a Wraithlord then there would be a difference of wounding on 2+ or 3+

Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

You can imply that, however there is nothing stating that. So we follow the rules we do have.

Not to mention either way you look at it, it would be classified as a modifier.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Since the previous question about the toughness of TW mounts says that a mod of the base characteristic makes it T5 not T(4+1), does that not make the S5 not S(4+1)

It made it T5 not T4(5). It was T4+1 but 5th (when the FAQ was written) didn't have the same concept of modifiers that 6th does.

Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

Intended and Written are two different animals.
I'm saying that the wording they used is the 5th edition wording, which has specific consequences in 6th edition.

So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well the FAQ is current tbh, they've removed questions in FAQ's that they think no longer matter. I agree that in 5th there was a difference when it came to ID etc but the fact that the questions are still there has some relevance to 6th ed.

IMHO the intention is that like TWC a HQ on a TW mount should have S5 T5 etc. We have always played it as thunderwolf lord with a thunder hammer is S10 as per the two questions using the same language.

Intentions aside, houserules aside, keeping to the rules.

It was fine in 5th however with 6th edition the rules changed. Now they're 4+1 x2 which is worked out as 4x2=8+1=9.
Until a Faq stating that it is not a modifier they're only str 9

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

No.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.

I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.

 Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

No.

Please provide evidence.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.

I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.

Read the TW Mount in the Codex, it states it gives +1s, +1T, +1A.
Later in the FAQ it is said as it's toughness being a 5 not a 4(5)

even this is a modifier. Even if it gave it a new set value it is modified, read modifiers on pg 2. They have changed alot in this brave new edition.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So an unmodified T test for TW lords would be taken on a T4?

Yes.

Oh I understand RAI vs RAW, I read it as T5 and S5 from the context of what the second FAQ says and since the 1st says that "unusually" making it different to the normal methods.

Again, that's using 5th edition wording - not 6th. That question again asserts that its a modification to the base characteristic.

I think that your answer is wrong. When it comes to the toughness.

Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile withToughness 5.

I think the first 4 words of this answer divorce it from the general methods for working modifiers.

And, as I've said, that answer worked great in 5th edition. Unfortunately in 6th edition the wording now has a different consequence. Now it's a modifier that stacks differently.

If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.

'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Right, so are there toughness tests that explicitly tell you to use unmodified value?

 Crimson wrote:
Right, so are there toughness tests that explicitly tell you to use unmodified value?

Never said there were, however there are things that require unmodified str, etc. Wolf lord (4) TWM +1 Thammer(x2) ='s str 9

rigeld2 wrote:


If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.

Off topic:

Modifier is a thing that modifies, the +1 in the TW mount is refered to as a modification. A slight but pedantic difference that really means nothing but it is not a modifier

What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Nailed this, hopefully this will finalize it for all but the most pendantic.

The OP was pertaining to two different concepts:

Modifiers - A modifier is a change to a stat. In 6th edition, this is changes the model's stat line. THERE ARE NO PARENTHESES, ie 4(5), IN 6th. If the stat is modified, it becomes the new stat line in 6th edition. Most bonuses that are bought or gained in the game fall into this category, including most inate wargear.

BRB p2 explains the modifiers. Multiple Modifiers are applied as given in the rules from the base stat.

Only weapons (as listed in weapons) fall into the next category - bonuses. This concept is explained under weapons (BRB p50, Strength).

If you will notice any wording pertaining to special rules, they are quite clear when and how the modification is applied, temporary or permanently. Notice also how there are no examples of permanent "doubling" of a particular stat.

The Boon is applied and the stat just "is" +1 from the previous stat. It is now STR 5 for every intent and purpose. Then, later in the game, you get a Bonus from the weapon when striking, this is now STR 5 x 2.

If you had never heard about 5th edition and jumped straight to 6th, there would be no confusion of this sort. If you will also notice, in the updated line stats for every unit in the game, there are no longer parenthetical bonuses. The result of permanent stat increases just "ARE" the new stat. Simplified from 5th edition.

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

I'm thinking s10.

A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?

Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


If you disagree, show where it's said to not be a modifier.

Off topic:

Modifier is a thing that modifies, the +1 in the TW mount is refered to as a modification. A slight but pedantic difference that really means nothing but it is not a modifier

Modification is the act of modifying something or the result of being modified. In other words, applying a modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PolecatEZ wrote:
Modifiers - A modifier is a change to a stat. In 6th edition, this is changes the model's stat line. THERE ARE NO PARENTHESES, ie 4(5), IN 6th. If the stat is modified, it becomes the new stat line in 6th edition. Most bonuses that are bought or gained in the game fall into this category, including most inate wargear.

Correct.

Only weapons (as listed in weapons) fall into the next category - bonuses. This concept is explained under weapons (BRB p50, Strength).

Page 50 doesn't mention the word bonus in that section at all.

If you will notice any wording pertaining to special rules, they are quite clear when and how the modification is applied, temporary or permanently. Notice also how there are no examples of permanent "doubling" of a particular stat.

No examples of one doesn't mean there is not or cannot be one.

The Boon is applied and the stat just "is" +1 from the previous stat. It is now STR 5 for every intent and purpose. Then, later in the game, you get a Bonus from the weapon when striking, this is now STR 5 x 2.

Could you re-read page 2 and tell me how that follows the rules for multiple modifiers please?

If you had never heard about 5th edition and jumped straight to 6th, there would be no confusion of this sort. If you will also notice, in the updated line stats for every unit in the game, there are no longer parenthetical bonuses. The result of permanent stat increases just "ARE" the new stat. Simplified from 5th edition.

You're assuming I'm reading the rules with a 5th edition bias. I'm not. Page 2 defines any addition to a stat as a modifier. Could you explain why you're asserting that there's a special "permanent" stat increase that the rules aren't mentioning? Or could you give me a page reference?

 Sharkvictim wrote:
I'm thinking s10.

Using the rules on pg 2 for modifiers and multiple modifiers please show me how.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?

Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.

Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.." "..with a thunderwolf mount.." "...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."

Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"... ... FAQ... ... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?

Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.

Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.."

Spoiler:

That's the wolf lord

"..with a thunderwolf mount.."

Spoiler:

That's the upgrade

"...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."

Spoiler:

Meaning its profile changes for good, not that its modified.

Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"...

Spoiler:

That's the army we are talking about.

... FAQ...

Spoiler:

That means "Frequently Asked Questions"

... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.

You see the character has toughness of 4 right?

You see the upgrade right? Heck I bet that's probably even "wargear"

Well in this game that's called a , its even defined on pg 2 of your BGB.



yes it's Toughness 5 but at the same point it's modified.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
What other boons alter the statline? I know the Wounds one, if your at full wounds and get +1 W, then get wounded twice but roll the wound one again do you refill to the original wounds or the +1 from before?

How are the stat alteration ones worded? Are they worded +1 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' or +1 to 'stat' characteristic? I makes a bit of a difference. But in the end it comes down to if its +1 flat and not +1 when/if/then condition. A +1 'stat' without a qualifier spells perma to me.

But I agree that if its simply +1 'Stat' then all of them should be treated as modifiers (including any Toughness ones in the table, if there are any) until otherwise stated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
'Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5," pretty much has to mean that the model has toughness 5.

Incidentally, is there toughness tests that tell you to specificly to use 'unmodified' characteristic? And if there are, with what T value would, say, a regular Space marine biker take this test?

a SM biker is T5.

However a Captain upgraded with a Bike is T4(5) and his unmodified is the 4

Except its states that you ignore the lower value and only use the higher value of the two in every FAQ that has bikes and such. So the increased toughness IS the unmodified toughness.

Is it the unmodified toughness? Is it really, lets go with no it's really not the unmodified in fact it's the modified toughness.
Silly definitions get in the way.

Still not sure why the thread changed topics so bad though it's originally talking about Str4+1x2 and those mods.

As the previous toughness is ignored and no longer exists then yes, it IS the unmodified toughness for all intents and purposes as there is no other Toughness characteristic. It also does not say it applies exclusivly to bikes, just where there is a second toughness characteristic.

Perhaps if you direct your attention just ever so slightly upwards, forgiving your narrowed vision, you might have seen that I commented and asked questions in reguards to the topic. If you were so interested in the OPs topic you might have see it and replied to it rather than argue a redundant point.

Show me where a Lord mounted on a Thunderwolf calvary has a 4(5) in a profile. Best of luck with that though

Well as its a flat and very explicit +1 toughness to his profile as stated on page 62 of the codex in my lap and thunder wolf stat increases were FAQ'd as the only stat you used even in 5th. No luck needed, thanks for playing though. liturgies of blood tell our contestant what he has won...

 liturgies of blood wrote:
A TW lord never had 4(5), in 5th he had T5. I don't agree with Rigeld about this edition but in 5th it was clear.

Reinforced disagreement! fantastic prize.for our contestant on 'who wants to be a Thunder wolflord?'


Really though, as with the thunderwolf mount its wording is key to the application, which is why I asked if the wording of the characteristic alterations in the boon table were worded the same or differently or what?

Wording is key? that it applies a +1 to it's stat which is a modifier.

What did I win you ask?
The right answer obvs.

Two Toughness Values
Where a model has two Toughness values presented on its
profile, one of which is presented in brackets, always use the
bracketed value. Ignore the other value entirely.

If the model had T4 and now has T5 because something had given it a +1 that would be a modified toughness.

Not sure if trolling or can't understand English....Guess I need to use the special long explanations I reserve for people that grasp less than my 2 year old.

Feel free to read this like I was talking to you as if you were a child, its how I'm typing it.

In the codex I own for the army called the "Space wolves" on page 62 in the rules for a special upgrade called a " Thunderwolf Mount" it describes how the characteristic increases work it says quote; "A character.."

Spoiler:

That's the wolf lord

"..with a thunderwolf mount.."

Spoiler:

That's the upgrade

"...has the unit type cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack TO ITS PROFILE..."

Spoiler:

Meaning its profile changes for good, not that its modified.

Also, Page 6 of the the "Space Wolf"...

Spoiler:

That's the army we are talking about.

... FAQ...

Spoiler:

That means "Frequently Asked Questions"

... even states that it is altering the BASE CHARACTERISTIC. Its not 4 + 1 Toughness, IT IS FIVE TOUGHNESS. The new value is the profile, not a modified characteristic IT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC.

I added some clarifying points so you could follow this fething simple concept, if you fail to understand this then no one can help you.

You see the character has toughness of 4 right?

Spoiler:

You know, the wolf lord.

You see the upgrade

Spoiler:

"T-Wolf mount" and how it gives a +1 to the above stat

right? Heck I bet that's probably even "wargear"

Well in this game that's called a

Spoiler:

modifier

, its even defined on pg 2 of your BGB.

Spoiler:

Lord + wargear ='s a toughness that was modified ...

yes it's Toughness 5 but at the same point it's modified.

Except the Codex and FAQ uver rule the BRB and they both say they are a change to the base characteristic, that replaces the old profile with a new one. Rather specifically in fact. As there are no qualifiers or limitations for the alteration and at least two codex/FAQ listings backing my statement up of it being an alteration to the profile... ... then page two has no bearing on the subject because IT IS NOT A MODIFIER. Bike upgrades are also considered to be an alteration of profile in 6th because it alters the units Toughness, unit type and grants it special rules. So also not a modifier.

They are not exactly war gear, they are upgrades that change what the units stats are, its unit type and even special rules. An infantry lord on a bike is not affected by prefered enemy: infantry because it use to be infantry. Just the same as rolling up Daemon prince on the boon table is a permanent change to the units profile, including altering its characteristics, unit type and special rules. Are you seeing a trend here?


Which is why the specific wording of the boon table is important. Thus why I asked hours ago. Yet you insisted on arguing a moot point that has no bearing on the subject, so please just stop posting about it because your citations are wrong and have been proven wrong. Just talk about the OPs question ok.

So everyone, what is the wording in the boon table for characteristic alterations? Please be exact its important.

Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.

I'm out....I refuse to be dragged down and beaten with experience....

 Bausk wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Actually the Codex Overrules the BGB when there is a clash. This is not a clash.

you know what altering a profile is? A Modifier, did you even read pg 2 of the BGB modifiers???

"by adding positively or negatively""multiplying it" or even "setting its value"

What does the Thunderwolf mount option give your lord? It gives modifiers to his statline. I'm sorry you're failing miserably to see that by altering it you had to + something to it.

As far as the boon table the only one I saw read +1 Str. Oh look another modifier how quaint.

I'm out....I refuse to be dragged down and beaten with experience....

Honestly though I looked for the wording on the boon table for ya. To see when it happens and all but this codex is a mess, it's everywhere and anywhere. I need sticky notes so I can tab which 3 pages the rules are on for 1 thing.

As for the Thunder Lord, sorry you're just wrong on it. You have a lord + upgrade which gives modifiers to his statline.

Now for your boon; Let's say you roll 56 "Blademaster-The champion has +1 Weapon Skill" pg 29 C:CSM
again it's a modifier, so we follow the rules for them.

Again, how are people ignoring the rules on page 2?

+1 *anything* is a modifier, according ot the rules on page 2. Thats it.

Boon table does not alter this fact

Its not the modifier that matters, its what's giving it. If to comes from a SR or wargear, then its part of what page 2 is talking about.

I think we saw this as a change to a stat line from something not wargear or special rule but from something else.

However, having reread all relevant rules, I agree with nos, jd and co. The gift of mutation is wargear (it is on the war gear page), not part of the unit (like a Thunderpuppy), and boon is most definetly a special rule.

Therefore, the +1 is the type of modifier (SR or wargear) that page 2 is talking about, and there for follows the order of operation set on that page.

I agree in saying the strength is +1 all the time not just an assault phase so it's cannot be classified under the same as furious charge

 Lobukia wrote:
Its not the modifier that matters, its what's giving it. If to comes from a SR or wargear, then its part of what page 2 is talking about.

Rules citation required. Page 2 doesn't mention the source.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Its not the modifier that matters, its what's giving it. If to comes from a SR or wargear, then its part of what page 2 is talking about.

Rules citation required. Page 2 doesn't mention the source.

First sentence under "modifiers", first sentence under "multiple modifiers"

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Its not the modifier that matters, its what's giving it. If to comes from a SR or wargear, then its part of what page 2 is talking about.

Rules citation required. Page 2 doesn't mention the source.

First sentence under "modifiers", first sentence under "multiple modifiers"

Still not seeing the word "source", just seeing things that equate modifiers from wargear and rules to be handled the same. I'm not sure where else one could get a modifier...

So Sword of Murder being Wargear, and Strength Boon being a special rule?
Seems to fit Multiple Modifiers quite well.