I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

 Wolfstan wrote:
I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

They've already done it. GW now provides no advance notice of future events to drum up sales, and everything is shipped in a rush. They might tighten that up just slightly such that any options you have will already have a bit on the sprue, but I'd proffer substantial options will continue to be low.

I'm not willing to try and sift through 95 pages of the original, could someone give a quick summary of progress?

Well I'd guess we'd see an aggressive growth from bitz makers.

We'd certainly see them going more directly at the 'whole model' and more readily identifiable parts.

I very much doubt that GW can win, at least on all their allegations.

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

Well, GW being GW...

I expect a draconian policy of complete and total intolerance of any and all non-GW bits or conversions at GW tournaments.

I think it would be GOOD to see them get more disciplined about having the models out for new codexes in a timely manner. This should mean an end to going years or even never seeing certain specific models.

I highly doubt they would use .pdfs on a serious basis. There's not enough publisher controls and profit there for a company like GW to "tolerate" it.

I think you're right about seeing much less variety in future lists. Limit the number of opportunities for other companies to create alternate bits and models.

In the long run I think this will mean a surge of miniatures matching GW's specific game themes being produced, available at competitive prices to GW models and perfectly acceptable in "friendly" games. As these manufactures increase their lines other rule sets will surely follow as well.

 Swordbreaker wrote:
Well, GW being GW...

I expect a draconian policy of complete and total intolerance of any and all non-GW bits or conversions at GW tournaments.

Difficult given they have washed their hands of tournaments and given independent retailers the middle finger...

So, yeah, 3rd party conversions all ahead full!!

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

Then the market will decide what it wants from the much wider range of products.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

This will be the short to mid term effect. Expect lots of special snowflakes to make garage kits.

Chapterhouse and other current suppliers will have to up their games if they want to keep their niche within a niche.

It will make it harder for retail to decide who they want to promote.

GW could lock retailers in to stocking their ranges to the exclusion of anybody else (3rd party). That's a big leap, I know.

There will be a dearth of talent in the hobbiests pool as consumers buy more ready made stuff rather than converting existing models. Once everyones special no one will be.

I think we need to look at it from how will it affect the rest of the industry. On a couple other boards I visit that have some small time sculptors participate, they are rooting for GW. Not because they have any sympathy for GW, they are concerned about what will happen to them when 3rd party bit sites start integrating models they make into kits. Worst, what happens when they throw out concept sketches and ideas of upcoming releases only to find someone then taking it and making a cheap knock-off. Some of these guys have items that they are working on for the better part of a year on display. Worrying that they can't protect it means they will have to be less open with what they are working on.

Imagine GW level secrecy taking hold on the entire miniature industry.

silent25 wrote:
I think we need to look at it from how will it affect the rest of the industry. On a couple other boards I visit that have some small time sculptors participate, they are rooting for GW. Not because they have any sympathy for GW, they are concerned about what will happen to them when 3rd party bit sites start integrating models they make into kits.

They... uhhh ... might actually make a few more sales?

Honestly if some small boutique company makes, say Fantasy Ogres, and an even smaller garage operation makes a conversion kit that gives them guns flak armor for 40k - why in the hell would that bother anyone? You have to buy the original model to use the conversion kit! All it's doing is tossing MORE business their way. If anything it might give them ideas about how they could make conversion kits in the future in-house to tap in to that sweet-sweet niche within a niche in a niche gaming money that these garage kit builders are raking in...

silent25 wrote:
Worst, what happens when they throw out concept sketches and ideas of upcoming releases only to find someone then taking it and making a cheap knock-off. Some of these guys have items that they are working on for the better part of a year on display. Worrying that they can't protect it means they will have to be less open with what they are working on.

I don't know - I guess... is this really a concern? Is some garage company going to risk their own money and time making knock-offs of a small boutique company's specific and esoteric miniatures or are they going to go for the big obvious choices like Space Marines? I mean - are we in danger of seeing a bunch of "Corpse Hammer"* knock-offs flooding the marketplace here? But I don't know anything about the future - just idle speculation.

*Hate faces going to hate face ;-) Not picking on them - just the first thing I could think of.

 Wolfstan wrote:
I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

We're already seeing the effects now, regardless of whether they will win or not.

Look at the new Chaos release for example. It has a release for every item in its codex, and every new unit in the Chaos book had its unit released when the book was, some would say to the detriment of Chaos since it all seemed rather rushed.

No unit got new weapons or new options. Every single option in the codex is something you can buy from Gee-Dubya.

Also LOL @ flooding the markets with garbage. I've seen some bad stuff but it's at least comparable to the Mutilators for the Chaos book.

Nothing I would imagine.

There are already a whole swathe of bitz makers that either didn't exist prior to or have dramatically increased their range since this whole mess started. Chapterhouse have long since been left behind in quantity and quality by an industry that they we're never a leader in anyway.
There are no potential bitz makers waiting with bated breath for permission to unleash their product. They are either already making it, or made it and nobody bought it because it was awful.

GW managers will blame the incompetence of their US-lawyers for the outcome and search a new law firm who is willing to represent them before the supreme court to prove the obvious fact that competion is illegal (and the earth was created by GW in 6 days, they sadly lost the documents and asked the Vatican to confirm this).

Also in Poland half a dozen companies will emerge that all offer dreadnought arms, razorback guns, shoulder pads and "historic ork" components ... wait!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

And when garbage competes with garbage, they will have to increase quality/price in order to stay relevant.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

There will be a dearth of talent in the hobbiests pool as consumers buy more ready made stuff rather than converting existing models. Once everyones special no one will be.

I dunno. Aside from Chapterhouse - Scibor, Puppetswar, Kromlech, Anvil etc are already very accessible. Not to mention Forge World. I also don't see how adding a different shoulderpad made my Puppetswar with a head by Forge World and a weapon by Anvil does anything at all to "the talent in the hobbiests pool". If anything, it might make facing that next marine, chaos or ork army a little less boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Absolutionis wrote:

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

And when garbage competes with garbage, they will have to increase quality/price in order to stay relevant.

GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

Graphite wrote:
GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

There IS a limit to that in U.S. courts for things like this.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Graphite wrote:
GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

There IS a limit to that in U.S. courts for things like this.

GW also isn't, in the scale of international corporations, all that large a company. Their legal strategy for IP protection, which they have several times in financial documents referred to as their "moat" was based on a simple calculation: small "garage" level modeling companies cannot afford to defend against a suit being filed, much less actually go to trial. The costs are far too great.

That calculus imploded, spectacularly, once CHS was able to secure a firm willing to shoulder the expense in the interest of public good. It's also revealed that GW's posturing was exactly that, posturing: the level of incompetence in their rights management is shocking. I have participated in student films that were more aggressive and conscientious about maintaining proper releases, assignments and contracts.

Thus, it's reasonable to ask, how much is GW willing to spend on this matter, when, as a practical issue, they have already adjusted to "seal the chink in hteir armor", so to speak?

As was pointed out above, the most recent codex has all the units with models.That was the primary problem, the thing that the so called parasitic companies relied on: GW would release a rules book with many desirable units with no models, and expect their customer to wait. Now, they release everything.

In addition to being a benefit for the consumer, it will drive quality up.

Why?

Because when the unit has a legal model, there has to be a reason for buying an alternative. that reason will be aesthetics. Put simply, those in competition with GW will have to produce a better product, better then the real GW model.

Now, you might say, "they don't have to make it better, they can just make it cheaper"; but that's a good deal harder then it seems, now isn't it? GW is far and away the leader in plastic model tooling (in this niche, not models in general, of course), allowing them to undercut essentially anyone if they so choose.

Another reason why things may be better is quite simple: without the sword of capricious GW hanging over their heads, more substantial companies (such as Mantic, Raging Heroes and so on) will be willing to risk assets on developing properties of quality. After all, would a rational business spend money tooling and designing a line, if they were undertaking that GW might come and smash their toys on a whim?

It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

Could we also see some of those Blood Bowl sites come back if it goes against GW? All of those got a decease letter a few years ago, so it would good to see them flourish again.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

I guess you could also be told to stop acting like GW is clearly in the right when it's been shown they don't even own the rights for some of what they are suing over.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

It's also been stated that firms also do pro-bono work for reasons of training and it's considered part of the ethical standards by the ABA to do pro bono work.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

Pro bono publico (or pro bono) literally means "for the public good", so yes it is in the interest of the public. It may have other ramifications (i.e. the law firm gains more clients in the future or setting a precedent as you mentioned) but the actual case that they are representing Chapterhouse in is currently a public service.

Furthermore if a precedent is set that allows 3rd party bit makers, then this means that it helps out the public as opposed to the corporation.

The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

I guess you could also be told to stop acting like GW is clearly in the right when it's been shown they don't even own the rights for some of what they are suing over.

I'm sorry, where in this thread have I suggested that GW is clearly in the right or that they own every thing they're suing over?

Oh right. I haven't. So please get a grip on yourself before you start in with the "fanboy" accusations that folks here so love to throw around.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

It's also been stated that firms also do pro-bono work for reasons of training and it's considered part of the ethical standards by the ABA to do pro bono work.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has devoted all kinds of resources which rule out that this was done for "reasons of training" and the ABA standards can be overruled by the state BAR association recommending less hours.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

The analysis of the case made by several people that are more or less familiar with legal matters right here on Dakka seems to prove the exact opposite of what you are saying...

Care to enlighten us on how the "US courts are protecting US business instead of upholding the law", since that is quite a heavy accusation to throw against a democratic nation?

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

I'll leave the pointing out of the ignorance contained above to other posters, and merely add this;

I have been a member of the New York bar and registered to practice as an attorney before the United States Patent and Trademark Office since 2008.

Upon observation and inference, it is my academic* opinion that Games Workshop has improperly asserted rights under the relevant statutes and regulations. That they have done so in bad faith and without basis in law. That they have systematically used the threat of financial ruin coincident with suit as a means to improperly limit competition and unlawfully exert control over competitors.

Now of course one is free to disagree with my opinion, as no doubt many do, in good faith. I do not point out my credentials to insulate my opinion or as an argument ad hominem, but to point out that my opinion is not frivolous, nor based on a facile understanding of the law.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them and my understanding of the relevant law. I am open to arguments favorable to GW (though they should be presented in the relevant thread here), but it will take something a bit more sophisticated then "US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law".



*I'm an attorney, not your attorney, nor do I have any fiduciary relationship with any of the parties in the conflicts in question.

Edit: and it occurs to me that Kan's interjection actually doesn't address any of the points I made in my post save to quibble (incorrectly) about verbiage.

Well boo on me for falling for that.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

I love blankets. They keep you warm at night, and, when used with statements, make posters seem foolish.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

The analysis of the case made by several people that are more or less familiar with legal matters right here on Dakka seems to prove the exact opposite of what you are saying...

Care to enlighten us on how the "US courts are protecting US business instead of upholding the law", since that is quite a heavy accusation to throw against a democratic nation?

Chapterhouse made a kit specifically stated to be a Tyranid Tervigon, without permission or licence by GW. The Tyranids and the Tervigon are GW's intellectual property. Chapterhouse blatantly used another company's IP without permission. Common sense dictates they should have been taken down. Therefore the only thing protecting Chapterhouse is the US and their obsession with protecting their businesses, regardless of what they are doing.

GW undercutting someone? Really? Are you saying we might actually see a price lowering in our lifetime?

I understand the point you're trying to make, about GW's plastic production being unmatchable by other companies. But still, most people won't care that their things are in a resin instead.

 Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

I guess you could also be told to stop acting like GW is clearly in the right when it's been shown they don't even own the rights for some of what they are suing over.

I'm sorry, where in this thread have I suggested that GW is clearly in the right or that they own every thing they're suing over?

Oh right. I haven't. So please get a grip on yourself before you start in with the "fanboy" accusations that folks here so love to throw around.

Let me requote this for you...

Fanluwen wrote:
Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

This is obviously your opinion. Why else would you be instructing others in their behavior?

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

It's also been stated that firms also do pro-bono work for reasons of training and it's considered part of the ethical standards by the ABA to do pro bono work.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has devoted all kinds of resources which rule out that this was done for "reasons of training" and the ABA standards can be overruled by the state BAR association recommending less hours.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

I'll leave the pointing out of the ignorance contained above to other posters, and merely add this;

I have no problem pointing out that you clearly did not actually read my reply to you and are relying upon the usual suspects who haunt any of the legal threads and jump upon anyone saying anything which isn't "BURN GW!".

Nowhere did I say that "Pro Bono Publico" is not Latin for "for the public good".
I said that it's very clearly a case of the firm representing Chapterhouse is getting something out of this and it is not being done "in the interest of the public good". It's "in the interest" of the firm representing Chapterhouse.

Upon observation and inference, it is my academic* opinion that Games Workshop has improperly asserted rights under the relevant statutes and regulations. That they have done so in bad faith and without basis in law. That they have systematically used the threat of financial ruin coincident with suit as a means to improperly limit competition and unlawfully exert control over competitors.

Now of course one is free to disagree with my opinion, as no doubt many do, in good faith. I do not point out my credentials to insulate my opinion or as an argument ad hominem, but to point out that my opinion is not frivolous, nor based on a facile understanding of the law.

I don't think you are trying to play the "I'm a lawyer and you're wrong!" card, but it makes the next part all the more amusing.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them and my understanding of the relevant law. I am open to arguments favorable to GW (though they should be presented in the relevant thread here), but it will take something a bit more sophisticated then "US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law".

Why in the world are you posting this and replying to me?

I did not say anything of the kind. Squigsquasher, right above me, is the one who made that statement.
Oh, and posting in the Chapterhouse suit thread at this point?
It's pointless. The thread should have been locked at this point and only allowed for individuals who have access to the documents to post. Every other day it's filled with more and more mindless drivel, from both sides. You'll notice that I haven't posted in there for over two months because inevitably it keeps going in circles.

I should also add that as a lawyer, you have access to some information which I might not and potentially can check into something that I've been hearing rumblings of in sources such as "Fine Scale Modeler" starting as early as 2008 about a lot of model companies now having to license what was previously publicly available things such as military vehicle designs.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

The analysis of the case made by several people that are more or less familiar with legal matters right here on Dakka seems to prove the exact opposite of what you are saying...

Care to enlighten us on how the "US courts are protecting US business instead of upholding the law", since that is quite a heavy accusation to throw against a democratic nation?

Chapterhouse made a kit specifically stated to be a Tyranid Tervigon, without permission or licence by GW. The Tyranids and the Tervigon are GW's intellectual property. Chapterhouse blatantly used another company's IP without permission. Common sense dictates they should have been taken down. Therefore the only thing protecting Chapterhouse is the US and their obsession with protecting their businesses, regardless of what they are doing.

Actually what Chapterhouse does is a "Tervigon Conversion Kit for Carnifex Model". Tervigons and Tyranids apparently aren't GW's intelectual property because:

a) When Chapterhouse released their conversion kit there was no such thing as a Tervigon model made by GW and they can't hold rights to stuff that they haven't even made yet;
b) GW while talking a bit talk, apparently can't prove that they own the rights to most of the miniatures that they HAVE produced. Having even reached the point of desperation of trying to convince artists that worked for them in the past to retroactively sign of those rights;

For these and other nuggets on the workings of the GW IP team, please feel free to educate yourself by reading the 90+ pages of the relevant thread.

In summation: No, the court isn't protecting a US business. The court is actually upholding the law because apparently GW doesn't own the rights to their own miniatures and you can't just claim to own something, you :GASP: actually have to prove that you do...

If you actually read the "90+ pages of the relevant thread", you would know that there has been no definitive ruling as to GW "not holding the rights" for the Tervigon.
In fact: the Tervigon is one of the bigger parts of the case.
The concept and name was clearly in existence before the model was made, and was present within the Tyranid Codex. There was even artwork of the Tervigon in said Codex.

The only result which will come from that claim being altered is that GW (and likely other model companies as well which are worrying about the same thing) will clamp down on artwork and the like before the models are ready.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you actually read the "90+ pages of the relevant thread", you would know that there has been no definitive ruling as to GW "not holding the rights" for the Tervigon.
In fact: the Tervigon is one of the bigger parts of the case.
The concept and name was clearly in existence before the model was made, and was present within the Tyranid Codex. There was even artwork of the Tervigon in said Codex.

The only result which will come from that claim being altered is that GW (and likely other model companies as well which are worrying about the same thing) will clamp down on artwork and the like before the models are ready.

There hasn't been a definite ruling in anything since the case is still ongoing, but thanks for clarifying that.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

The analysis of the case made by several people that are more or less familiar with legal matters right here on Dakka seems to prove the exact opposite of what you are saying...

Care to enlighten us on how the "US courts are protecting US business instead of upholding the law", since that is quite a heavy accusation to throw against a democratic nation?

Chapterhouse made a kit specifically stated to be a Tyranid Tervigon, without permission or licence by GW. The Tyranids and the Tervigon are GW's intellectual property. Chapterhouse blatantly used another company's IP without permission. Common sense dictates they should have been taken down. Therefore the only thing protecting Chapterhouse is the US and their obsession with protecting their businesses, regardless of what they are doing.

1. The case is on-going.
2. Common sense is subjective. Don't throw that term around so much.
3. 3rd party manufacturers have made parts for existing products for years. Google After Market Automotive Parts for a great example.
4. There is a 90 page thread on this subject that you can peruse and learn a lot about.
5. The US government doesn't give a flying crap about Chapterhouse so long as they pay their taxes. If they went belly-up, the USG wouldn't care.
6. "Therefore the only thing protecting Chapterhouse is the US and their obsession with protecting their businesses" This is the silliest thing I've read in a long time, and i have lots of elderly aunts and uncles that post craziness on Facebook.
7. Stay in school, kid.

 Kanluwen wrote:
...
I have no problem pointing out that you clearly did not actually read my reply to you and are relying upon the usual suspects who haunt any of the legal threads and jump upon anyone saying anything which isn't "BURN GW!".

Nowhere did I say that "Pro Bono Publico" is not Latin for "for the public good".
I said that it's very clearly a case of the firm representing Chapterhouse is getting something out of this and it is not being done "in the interest of the public good". It's "in the interest" of the firm representing Chapterhouse.

To reply quickly, all that this statement evinces is that you have a profoundly clouded understanding not only of the relevant law, but of the facts at issue and the basics of the practice of law. There are so many errors packed up here that they need a thread to address them... coincidentally found here.

Breifly though, it would seem you would require a kind of monastic purity of those that would claim the mantle of "public good", a standard that is, to belabor the obvious, touchingly naive. The fascinating irony is that if you truly believe your condemnation above, you betray your greater point about the possibility that GW is not in the wrong. After all, if it is a purely mercenary action, that can only be possible with a great expectation of success, which is to say that GW's case is transparently merit-less, such that there is no risk in taking them up on it.

Of course, even then it does not cease to be in the public good. After all, a business that expends capital and resources with the expectation of showing a malfeasance to be nothing more then a paper tiger has still, in defeating said malfeasance and showing their threats to be empty, served the public good.

It is no indictment of a man that he shoot a rabid dog, to point out that he shares those streets he has thus secured.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Upon observation and inference, it is my academic* opinion that Games Workshop has improperly asserted rights under the relevant statutes and regulations. That they have done so in bad faith and without basis in law. That they have systematically used the threat of financial ruin coincident with suit as a means to improperly limit competition and unlawfully exert control over competitors.

Now of course one is free to disagree with my opinion, as no doubt many do, in good faith. I do not point out my credentials to insulate my opinion or as an argument ad hominem, but to point out that my opinion is not frivolous, nor based on a facile understanding of the law.

I don't think you are trying to play the "I'm a lawyer and you're wrong!" card, but it makes the next part all the more amusing.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them and my understanding of the relevant law. I am open to arguments favorable to GW (though they should be presented in the relevant thread here), but it will take something a bit more sophisticated then "US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law".

Why in the world are you posting this and replying to me?

I did not say anything of the kind. Squigsquasher, right above me, is the one who made that statement.
Oh, and posting in the Chapterhouse suit thread at this point?
It's pointless. The thread should have been locked at this point and only allowed for individuals who have access to the documents to post. Every other day it's filled with more and more mindless drivel, from both sides. You'll notice that I haven't posted in there for over two months because inevitably it keeps going in circles.

I'm well aware that a different individual posted that phrase. What I should have made more clear was that the the statement quoted was equivalent in sophistication to your own argument. That is, profoundly ignorant of both the law and the relevant facts.

As for the futility of posting in the appropriate thread, if you are possessed of some argument that will bring illumination to the besotted masses that have been blind to the true disposition of the case, I can only assure you that I, at least, shall be glad if you will no longer hide your light beneath a bushel.

If there is some line of reasoning you are maintaining in reserve, some obscure citation or principle archaic, do share it there, that we may all be illuminated by the sharing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I should also add that as a lawyer, you have access to some information which I might not and potentially can check into something that I've been hearing rumblings of in sources such as "Fine Scale Modeler" starting as early as 2008 about a lot of model companies now having to license what was previously publicly available things such as military vehicle designs.

I have no idea what you are talking about specifically, and even less about what it has to do with this discussion. It very well may have something to do with this discussion, but a great deal more specificity is required.

I can appreciate that you feel... however it is that you feel. But you must appreciate that the place for discussion of the law is here, and this thread is expressly for a different purpose. To that end I apologize for participating in this increasingly distracted tangent. I'll restrain myself to responses that are responsive, heh.

Take exalts for both your posts Buzzsaw. Thank you for contributing.

On Topic: I would hope that the positive would outweigh the negative if CHS wins. Firstly, I hope it would mean that GW would actually have models for all the options in their codices when the release them, rather than several years later if ever. I hope it would mean that there would be an increase in third party developers that would result in more competition among them, eventually meaning better quality third party products.

Off Topic: For those who feel the need to debate the merits of this case, please take it to the relevant 95+ page thread on the subject here in the Discussions forum. Please read all 95+ pages if you are unfamiliar with the case. "Common sense" has, unfortunately, no place in legal proceedings. We luckily have been blessed with a few people who are actually practicing attorneys who are familiar with IP law that have helped to clarify what the law actually means during the course of that thread. Unfortunately, the opinions of what "should" be are pretty meaningless when the law differs. Oftentimes, people who have a feeling about what "should" be with regards to IP law have not had the chance to fully think out all of the ramifications of their opinion.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Take exalts for both your posts Buzzsaw. Thank you for contributing.

D'aaaaaw, shucks. Thanks.

Saldiven wrote:On Topic: I would hope that the positive would outweigh the negative if CHS wins. Firstly, I hope it would mean that GW would actually have models for all the options in their codices when the release them, rather than several years later if ever. I hope it would mean that there would be an increase in third party developers that would result in more competition among them, eventually meaning better quality third party products.

While I'm quite confident of positives, I'm not really sure there would be any negatives, except from the perspective of GW that is, of course.

Let's remember, trademark and copyright exist to protect artists and ideas, to grant very limited monopolies. If, as this thread supposes, GW loses their case in the main, it's because they have been squatting on public land, as it were.

In the largest sense, the case has been going on so long that the real threat to GW has materialized as this has made its way through the courts: Kickstarter. Companies like Dreamforge are breaking into the plastic miniature game (which is the real plum of the industry) through infusions of crowd-sourced cash.

GW's business model must change, they can't leave gaps in their product line lie fallow for months or years and expect no one to fill them.

That last bit we can certainly agree upon to an extent...

They have to change and gaps cannot be allowed to continue.
Whether or not someone else should be able to "fill" the gaps without a license though is up for debate.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You mean like practically every single person commenting in the Chapterhouse thread as though they're some kind of legal eagle?
.

That's pretty much my point. Too many people posted on the previous thread (and now this thread) about how they perceived things "should" be without having any understanding of the law. I'm sure you remember how some people even argued with attorneys who explained how the law actually works. I think a lot of the "should" work crowd would be incredibly unhappy if IP laws worked they way they believed; IP would be so incredibly powerful and all-encompassing that the development of "new" material would be stifled dramatically because it was similar to existing work. I've found the CHS lawsuit thread to be incredibly edifying.

I'm fairly sure there was a topic here somewhere....

Oh yeah - it's RIGHT IN THE TITLE OF THE THREAD.

If you're discussing the history of pro bono representation, or even the merits of the GW/CH lawsuit, you're off-topic. My tolerance is low right now; you've been warned.

Games Workshop was sued by the guy who came up with the sketchwork for the Alien movie. They LOST. GW was also sued by a group of retailers when they ( GW ) tried to say that if US retailers wanted to carry thier stock, they had to order directly from them. They LOST. GW likes to bully people with their team of lawyers. Try telling any one of the THOUSANDS of secondary auto parts manufacturers that they cant sell an aftermarket blower to a musclehead in Detroit!! He'd bash that lawyers teeth down his throat. What it really boils down to is CHOICE and the FREE MARKET. If GW had it their way it would be a TOTAL VERTICAL MONOPOLY. You cant do that in America unless you are selling GAS!!!!!

...

If I didn't know better I'd say this guy is angry.

And since when did H.R Giger try and sue GW?

I am reminded of a video I saw for TEDtalks. Yes it covers fashion, but it rings true for the GW/CH lawsuit.

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html

When I originally watched this video I thought of this whole GW/CH lawsuit mess. If CH wins, could it mean a more relaxed approach on Copyright laws and miniature designs for third party designers? No one would own a design but everyone is trying to out design each other?

 Squigsquasher wrote:

And since when did H.R Giger try and sue GW?

I first heard about this in the mid 90's but as far as I'm aware its an urban legend.

I'd not heard anything about a lawsuit by Giger, Fox, Scott, Cameron, or anyone else involved in the movies.

Back on topic: I think the market will benefit. With GW pricing themselves out near Saturn's orbit, they'll finally have a little competition. Not much, mind you but possibly enough to make them dial back a bit. There will be a short period of garage bits makers but hopefully those will consolidate and quality will improve. I have to wonder if there are some quality after-market bit makers just waiting for this case to be resolved before they decide to start production.

One area I see being filled is making bits that extend the stuff left over in GW's current model design. The Triarch Stalker is a good example. With it you get the bits to make three weapons, one of which you can put on the model. The problem is that a central bit has only one piece and once you make a weapon with it, you can't do anything with the rest of the weapon bits. Bring in the after-market bit maker and you can get a substitute bit that you can buy two of cheaply and put the other weapons together, magnatize them all and have everything swappable. This will save you from buying another Stalker or trying to get the bit from eBay at extortionist pricing.

If Chapterhouse wins then we may see more bits manufacturers and greater numbers of parts being released at realistic prices.

Puppetswar are putting out great stuff atm as well as many others as well. Competition is good for innovation, creativity and the consumer. If GW produce the finest models in the world (according to them) then they would have nothing to worry about. The fact that these companies exist and are making money means that there is a need in the market that GW are not filling.

If CH wins, I think we all win by getting more choice

Their are already plenty of bits manufactures running aorund out their.

1)What we will see is more Total Converstion kits like the True Scale Storm Raven and Tervigon Kits that Chapter house made.

2)Conversion bits can look closer to the original ideas, and you will start seeing whole modles ment as alternative sculpts to the GW selection.

Kromlech, Microart and the slew of others all do conversion bits, but their is sort of this imaginary line they would keep well away from. They would try and keep their parts generic enough that it wouldn't get them in trouble, and advoided directly referencing GW.

Chapter House for better or worst were the 1st bits manufacture to cross that imaginary line, and push the boundires of what bits manufactures could make. For pushing that boundary Chapter house moved GW's hand.


In all honesty I don't think things will be that different then they are now. Except now chapter house is probably going to find them selves with more competition. lol


I will admit thow. Now that GW's hand has been moved, I hope Chapter house does win. Because if GW wins this case, I fear it might give them a confidence to start moving ageist other "infringements". Witch to see alot of the 3rd party bits manufactures go would be a sad day for our hobby. I'd rather have more competing for my dollars, then less.

I hope they win. I really don't understand the problem with the conversion kits really. We still have to buy the GW model to convert it and its not like they make many conversion kits anyway.

I wonder if this would actually allow three things to happen, if Chapterhouse wins...

1. GW must actually back up 'we make the best toy soldiers in the world' because other companies will be able to make directly competing figures. So, perhaps they'll be forced to consult and invest and avoid stinkers like the spikey pig or the new melee obliterators. The finecast criticism might actually be addressed properly as well.

2. GW have the means of mass production and plastics, so they can also actually suffer a lowering of prices to remain competitive against 'all those little Polish firms'.

3. GW might actually consider hiring out their IP and let independents take up the running of the specialist games (please give FFG BFG and let them run it... ).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I wonder if this would actually allow three things to happen, if Chapterhouse wins...

1. GW must actually back up 'we make the best toy soldiers in the world' because other companies will be able to make directly competing figures. So, perhaps they'll be forced to consult and invest and avoid stinkers like the spikey pig or the new melee obliterators. The finecast criticism might actually be addressed properly as well.

That's just marketing speak and means just as much. Every line has stinkers so thinks like the Porche Pig and the reject oblits from Star Trek Insurrection will still make it through. They are likely years away from having direct competition if this comes to pass and it won't be on the scale that GW would likely even notice.

2. GW have the means of mass production and plastics, so they can also actually suffer a lowering of prices to remain competitive against 'all those little Polish firms'.

They do not care about being price competitive and have stated this on many occasions. There is also little actual business threat at this point from 'all those little Polish firms'.

3. GW might actually consider hiring out their IP and let independents take up the running of the specialist games (please give FFG BFG and let them run it... ).

They would have to believe there is value in doing this. If they did, they would have done so by now. FFG would also not keep BFG as it is now and you'd see it turned into a board game like the X-Wing game or something along those lines.

IF CH win .
GWplc would have to acknowledge the real world exists.
And that there IS competition to thier product range.

And the 'moat of bullying the little guys into line' and the 'walls of complete and utter indiference to customer base ' are no protection ...

Which wouold be good for all apart from GW plc corperate managment.

I am really rooting for CHS. I hope that a CHS victory will force GW to change its corporate culture. Maybe leading to a more customer friendly business model.

 FattyJay wrote:
I am really rooting for CHS. I hope that a CHS victory will force GW to change its corporate culture. Maybe leading to a more customer friendly business model.

...or just delaying new releases longer until the full range is modelled, packaged and distributed.

I don't feel there will be a radical change unless the outcome is severely weighted against GW. For a start it's a case in the US, do they'll still be able to fight on in out countries and they are UK based. Also, assuming CH win, it will be within certain conditions regarding this specific case. They probably won't win or lose on every point, but on a range of things, and compensation etc will be worked out on which things they lose on. As every care is different, the case may set some precedents for future cases which will weaken GW's position, but you still have to stand up to GW and put up a legal defenc when they send a C&D - and GW still have size and money on their side which will still intimidate smaller companies that don't have the luxury of pro bono representation.

The reality I feel is that if GW lose it won't change a great deal. I'd love to be wrong because I think GW is unhealthy for this hobby, but they still are bigger than everyone else and can get their way by throwing their substantial weight behind actions against others. This is how large companies beat down small opposition, they can just run them out of money in legal actions, even if the opposition is in the right, they need money, and all those little firms we like don't have it.

I'm thinking more accurate naming practices.

Instead of "Guns for an armored supersoldier in space."
We'd see: "New pattern Bolters for GW Space Marines."

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
1. GW must actually back up 'we make the best toy soldiers in the world' because other companies will be able to make directly competing figures. So, perhaps they'll be forced to consult and invest and avoid stinkers like the spikey pig or the new melee obliterators.

This is subjective. IMHO GW does make the best toy soldiers in the world. However the new stuff from Wyrd seems to be matching them or even beating them depending on your tastes. (I luvz me sum Thunders) Unfortunately, unless/until more companies step up their game, GW won't have much to worry about here.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
2. GW have the means of mass production and plastics, so they can also actually suffer a lowering of prices to remain competitive against 'all those little Polish firms'.

Never going to happen. This is a non-issue. GW's obstinance aside, it doesn't seem to be profitable enough for the recasters to make copies of plastic figures. The situation that concerns me is the impact they guys may wind up having on Forge World.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
3. GW might actually consider hiring out their IP and let independents take up the running of the specialist games (please give FFG BFG and let them run it... ).

I think GW management would rather choke to death than let this happen. FFG winding up with Talisman is apparently a different beast than BloodBowl, Epic, Mordheim, etc. I'm not sure what the exact details are though but it's apparently enough to let that be licensed while the rest aren't.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The reality I feel is that if GW lose it won't change a great deal. I'd love to be wrong because I think GW is unhealthy for this hobby, but they still are bigger than everyone else and can get their way by throwing their substantial weight behind actions against others. This is how large companies beat down small opposition, they can just run them out of money in legal actions, even if the opposition is in the right, they need money, and all those little firms we like don't have it.

Monopolies or near-monopolies are always bad for the marketplace. I expect GW to continue their attempts to supress the after-market companies even if they lose. If they win,be prepared for GW to become even more unbearable than ever. :(

1. Only positive things for the consumer will result in GW losing. (which I think is enevitable btw)

2. If you have read any of the court documents presented so far, you would not 'White Knight' for GW. Their claims are down right idiotic, and their legal team and management is beyond incompetent.

3. Garbage resin parts are garbage and will quickly fail. PuppetsWar, Kromlech and Maxmini will get more freedom, sell more stuff, and invest in making their products even better.

4. GW will either learn to compete fairly (lower prices and offer all options in a kit) or FAIL (raise prices even higher and offer less for you money, ie. 5 man tactical boxes for the price of the 10man box now)

Anyone who thinks "lower prices" will result from them losing this case is as out of touch with reality as GW's management team.

Higher prices and spiritual liege are the only words in GW's vocabulary.

hopefully they'll get up off their asses and start producing more products. Codex more often. Maybe they'll lower prices to compete with these 3rd party bits sellers. so people will say to themselves, "I can get the fake thing or i can get the real thing for 5 bucks or so more." I'd always pay a little extra for the real thing.

Maybe they can start selling more bits themselves. I know i'd love to have more hammers for my grey knights. One comes in a box when you have the option to put a hammer on all five guys.

Maybe GW will start treating their loyal fans better so we wont want to buy 2nd hand or from 3rd partys. I know i have stopped buying anything from GW or a store that supports GW in an effort to do my part to help drive down prices.

Fact is. They have an unlimited supply. The demand is only created by us. GW has even quit running tournaments. We are the ones who allow or do not allow non GW stuff at our tournaments.

Eventually, GW will have to let up on the price hikes and start taking them down. They are driving new players away with 100+ starters and 120+ battle boxes. In the end all they're going to have left are their old loyal players they've had forever. But guess what... I'm getting pretty darn close to having everything i could ever need for my nids. when they release another codex I'll buy it for 80 but will new players? I just started a year ago and prices, i think, have risen twice seance then.

two choices
Higher prices-Less players
Lower prices-More players

sure GW will net less per sale but with the higher number of players, and players like me wanting to buy from them instead of avoiding it like the plague, I feel it's just better for business.

morel of my story... They really need to lower prices before it's too late. I care about this hobby. More new players in stores would be so nice.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

GW's business model must change, they can't leave gaps in their product line lie fallow for months or years and expect no one to fill them.

I think the model has already changed, as we've seen with Chaos and the Flyers; Everything in the core Codex/Army Book comes with a figure at launch, with additional figures being released with an accompanied rule-expansion in the White Dwarf. I'm not sure how long it'll last though; how will people get the rules if they miss the magazine? Will they have to bring stacks of additional rule leaflets to tournaments?

GW want people to buy WD as well as the Codex and models but perhaps Chapter Approved will come back.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyone who thinks "lower prices" will result from them losing this case is as out of touch with reality as GW's management team.

Exalted, and quoted for cynicism

I can't see GW going back to selling bits whatever the results

The reason they stopped doing so was it was either making a loss (or maybe not profitable enough).

While it looks like there is a huge demand for them from what's said on forums I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Warhammer/40K players would never use them, it's only the veterans or really obsessed who pick them up

 MrScience wrote:
Higher prices and spiritual liege are the only words in GW's vocabulary.

Actually, there are at least two others; "cease" and "desist".

And CINEMATIC!

And FINE™!

I agree that we won't see lower prices, but we may see better value. There's already rumors of a new tactical marine box in the works that is supposed to have even more options in it than the current one. But will they release that at the same price as the current one, or higher? The same price would be the wiser choice, and would represent better value. Kind of like how I wish the GK terminator box included more than just one demonhammer and psycannon in it.

I don't want to use the phrase 'common sense' but, I don't have a better word for it, so my apologies...

Is there any way for a middlish outcome where neither side entirely win, that I'd call 'common sense' in my mind?

EG,

GW gets slapped for their hijinks with the artistic copyrights, their general incompetence with many things, attempting to copyright 'inverted chevrons.'

But!

Chapterhouse also get slapped for the tervigon, some of the storm raven things, their general website things and the like. I, personally just felt that all was simply not on and they deserved to get done for that stuff. It's just plain rude!

I'd say scibor's models are sort of at the right level for what I'm comfortable with and I feel 'should' be safe to sell, obviously inspired by and based on, but not taking the piss.

But then, I'm sure there's no chance of the law working that way, it'd seem too sensible to me.

All I know is that whatever can give businesses more freedom to GW IP has my vote. As it is, GW products are not worth how much you pay for, and I would love for competition in the Warhammer market to increase, for more variety, options, and increase in both quality of products and prices.

As for all you fancy sentence makers that have posted before me, please use words that allow me to understand while skimming through the thread, I don't have all day to read your posts. Thank you.

Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

It's naive to think that licensing will solve all the worlds ills.

Licensing of GW iP for mini manufacture would require a complete legal sweep. Forget the farce that is GW VS Chapter House. To Licence anything GW would need to bolt everything down tighter than a Nuns habit.

Once that is done a select few companies would have a licence under very specific terms.

Not that this will happen, mind.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
It's naive to think that licensing will solve all the worlds ills.

Licensing of GW iP for mini manufacture would require a complete legal sweep. Forget the farce that is GW VS Chapter House. To Licence anything GW would need to bolt everything down tighter than a Nuns habit.

Once that is done a select few companies would have a licence under very specific terms.

Not that this will happen, mind.

I believe GW is already licensing their IP out... FFG is not GW or a GW company (ala FW and BL), and yet at the same time there have been 0 licensing issues that I can tell.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

In this case at least, IP doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
It's naive to think that licensing will solve all the worlds ills.

Licensing of GW iP for mini manufacture would require a complete legal sweep. Forget the farce that is GW VS Chapter House. To Licence anything GW would need to bolt everything down tighter than a Nuns habit.

Once that is done a select few companies would have a licence under very specific terms.

Not that this will happen, mind.

I believe GW is already licensing their IP out... FFG is not GW or a GW company (ala FW and BL), and yet at the same time there have been 0 licensing issues that I can tell.

I should have made myself clearer.

Licencing reagrds to wargaming minatures. Not current agreements with FFG.

Saldiven wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

In this case at least, IP doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

In this case, you are not correct.

Chapterhouse's case is based upon the idea that they have "free access" to the material which inspired GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

In this case at least, IP doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

In this case, you are not correct.

Chapterhouse's case is based upon the idea that they have "free access" to the material which inspired GW.

We all have free access to the material which "inspired" GW, Kan.

And that's kind of the crux of Chapterhouse's argument, while GW's is that though they took "inspiration" from it--the product they've created and the IP itself is significantly different that it is their own.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyone who thinks "lower prices" will result from them losing this case is as out of touch with reality as GW's management team.

While I agree fully that the current management probably would not be able to comprehend that path forward - they are a publicly traded company and everyone of them serves at the behest of the stock holders. A large legal defeat would likely be enough to have the funds which have large holdings with the company to send in their representatives and clean house a bit.

An example where you can see a similar parallel is with the LEGO company. While still more expensive than their competition, following the losses of the LEGO patent claim in the 1980s, the average price per brick on LEGO sets fell to the normalized price it had in the 1960s. Although the price has gone up on the product, the price increases have been inline with or below inflation after they lost their case. Prior to that (throughout the 1960s and 1970s into the early 1980s). In fact in the 5 years following their final appeal loss - the average LEGO price dropped by more than 50%.

LEGO and GW have similar stories in terms of how the company views their products. Each believes that they offer the toy equivalent of a Rolls Royce. However, when faced with actual market forces...LEGO adapted, and I believe ultimately GW will as well. Might be painful during the transition period...but the end result will be beneficial both to the customers and the company.

 Compel wrote:
Is there any way for a middlish outcome where neither side entirely win, that I'd call 'common sense' in my mind?

The common sense solution is that GW loses. Or would you pay licence fees for an arrow or skull? Or the Chaos Star GW stole from Moorcock?
To win, you must present a case and GW is not willing to present a case, so winning is not an issue.

BTW not GW is losing, just the higher management. The GW designers are aware that the official position is not of this world, they keep on working as always whatever the outcome, drawing inspiration from left and right like everyone does.

The "Chaos Star GW stole from Moorcock" is not singularly Moorcock's creation.

He was the first to associate the multi-pointed star with Chaos, but it is a device which has been dated back to the Greeks.

Here's Moorcock's own statement:

The origin of the Chaos Symbol was me doodling sitting at the kitchen table and wondering what to tell Jim Cawthorn the arms of Chaos looked like. I drew a straightforward geographical quadrant (which often has arrows, too!) – N, S, E, W – and then added another four directions and that was that – eight arrows representing all possibilities, one arrow representing the single, certain road of Law. I have since been told that it is an "ancient symbol of Chaos" and if it is then it confirms a lot of theories about the race mind. ... As far as I know the symbol, drawn by Jim Cawthorn, first appeared on an Elric cover of Science Fantasy in 1962, then later appeared in his first comic version of Stormbringer done by Savoy

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "Chaos Star GW stole from Moorcock" is not singularly Moorcock's creation.

He was the first to associate the multi-pointed star with Chaos, but it is a device which has been dated back to the Greeks.

Here's Moorcock's own statement:

The origin of the Chaos Symbol was me doodling sitting at the kitchen table and wondering what to tell Jim Cawthorn the arms of Chaos looked like. I drew a straightforward geographical quadrant (which often has arrows, too!) – N, S, E, W – and then added another four directions and that was that – eight arrows representing all possibilities, one arrow representing the single, certain road of Law. I have since been told that it is an "ancient symbol of Chaos" and if it is then it confirms a lot of theories about the race mind. ... As far as I know the symbol, drawn by Jim Cawthorn, first appeared on an Elric cover of Science Fantasy in 1962, then later appeared in his first comic version of Stormbringer done by Savoy

None of which suggests GW should control the usage of the 8-pointed star, in spite of their claims to the contrary in the ongoing litigation.

But we're wandering afield again - the merits of the case aren't the topic for this thread.

After seeing the chaos codex where everything was contained within, with all the new wargear mainly just for the new stuff..

Yeah, rather disappointed.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyone who thinks "lower prices" will result from them losing this case is as out of touch with reality as GW's management team.

While I agree fully that the current management probably would not be able to comprehend that path forward - they are a publicly traded company and everyone of them serves at the behest of the stock holders. A large legal defeat would likely be enough to have the funds which have large holdings with the company to send in their representatives and clean house a bit.

Don't forget that a sizeable chunk of the company is owned by those currently running it, they only answer to themselves. That's also why it's misguided for people online to suggest that someone else could buy lots of shares to take some control of GW, those running the company own a lot of it, aren't selling and run it for their own profit. Some shares are held by investment companies, but those might also have been bought on behalf of GW execs, we can only see the proportion acquired under their own name. How many shares are in the hands of people who can make a difference? I'm going to guess, not a lot, certainly not enough for them to sweep in and demand GW bosses sort themselves out.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Anyone who thinks "lower prices" will result from them losing this case is as out of touch with reality as GW's management team.

While I agree fully that the current management probably would not be able to comprehend that path forward - they are a publicly traded company and everyone of them serves at the behest of the stock holders. A large legal defeat would likely be enough to have the funds which have large holdings with the company to send in their representatives and clean house a bit.

How many shares are in the hands of people who can make a difference? I'm going to guess, not a lot, certainly not enough for them to sweep in and demand GW bosses sort themselves out.

Between the 4 largest fund managers - they control roughly 50% of the company (Nomad, Investec, Phoenix and Polar). It takes a whole lot less than 50% to throw out the board and sort the company out.

They have to care enough first. Those funds manage a lot bigger fish than GW.

12thRonin wrote:
They have to care enough first. Those funds manage a lot bigger fish than GW.

Yes, however that still doesn't make their investment in GW something which they will ignore. If a significant blow were struck to GWs IP - the companies would likely either divest themselves of the stock or pressure changes (either through the existing management or by putting in management of their own choosing).

Think of it a bit like your own house. If you have a single faucet that drips you don't just leave it to drip (well - you might)...you fix the drip or you replace the faucet. Either way, just because it is a small portion of their portfolio doesn't mean they don't keep an eye on things.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
They have to care enough first. Those funds manage a lot bigger fish than GW.

Yes, however that still doesn't make their investment in GW something which they will ignore. If a significant blow were struck to GWs IP - the companies would likely either divest themselves of the stock or pressure changes (either through the existing management or by putting in management of their own choosing).

Think of it a bit like your own house. If you have a single faucet that drips you don't just leave it to drip (well - you might)...you fix the drip or you replace the faucet. Either way, just because it is a small portion of their portfolio doesn't mean they don't keep an eye on things.

It's more foreseeable that the fund managers in question would have a serious heart to heart with GW because divesting themselves of the stock, over a short period of time, would reduce their return. The massive numbers of shares that would be traded in the short term would see the stock value plummet.

Of course the scenario I presented above where the fund managers step in would require them, as a group, to agree on a course of action; that would be the trick.

 agnosto wrote:

It's more foreseeable that the fund managers in question would have a serious heart to heart with GW because divesting themselves of the stock, over a short period of time, would reduce their return. The massive numbers of shares that would be traded in the short term would see the stock value plummet.

Of course the scenario I presented above where the fund managers step in would require them, as a group, to agree on a course of action; that would be the trick.

Yes, actually dumping the stock all at once would likely hurt their price...however if the ball starts rolling on the news of a loss, many managers dump stock to try to avoid getting stuck at the bottom.

The other issue would end up being where the controlling share point actually is. In most cases a fairly small portion of the share holders actually participate in voting (they just don't get involved). A single entity like Nomad or Investec that control upwards of 18% of the stock each may actually have nearly 50% of the votes they would need to replace the board - assuming the other entity doesn't directly oppose their action.

Hi Testify.GW plc currently operate at 76% gross profit. But manage to miss manage it down to a pathetic 10 to 15% net profit.If GW plc did not throw away60% of thier profit on trying to isolate customers.GW plc could halve prices drive up demand and increase profits.Acting like its 1997 in 2012 does GWPlc no favors.

 scipio.au wrote:

Anyway, I look forward to seeing exactly what happens when Chapterhouse likely win. I think it'll be interesting, but since any outcome will only have US jurisdiction, not necessarily much impact for places in the UK/France/Poland.

Win or loose - we have already seen numerous things happen in GW which can be attributed directly to the CHS case. Future Codices will be full releases as opposed to waves. No more waiting several years to get all the models which are in a Codex - or in some cases never seeing them released. GW has released numerous specific bits in order to actually substantiate trademark claims (from the Imperial Guard Aquila sets to the various shoulder pads and weapons for the Space Marines which have been rereleased). During the several years since GW cancelled their core bits program, they could have well released those items, however a few short months after GW's licensing manager was deposed regarding the trademark claims (and embarrassingly had to answer that they had no products which were actually sold on a number of the claimed marks) we see a flood of items.

Other portions will be less directly tied to the specific case and will be dependent in many ways on whether or not the court addresses the Design Right issue. If the court does then you will likely see GW actually develop something new - as the time limit for exclusive production has long since past on the vast majority of GW's designs.

I think we can do without the "subtle" digs and insults please people.

Thanks.

I've purged this page of OT and rude posts. If I have to act in this thread again, it will be to purge Dakka of OT and rude posters.

I can't see how GW can win. My other hobby is racing cars and one thing I have seen there is how 3rd party parts are made to replace oem parts without needing a license etc..

As for what would happen if GW lose? I can imagine a HUGE increase in 3rd party bits, and the sooner the better in my view. I get bored of seeing the same models, the same kitbashes etc.

Variety please!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Round and round we go...

Why should businesses have access to GW's IP without licensing?

Because you feel you shouldn't have to pay as much?

If the case goes against GW it will likely show that much of the IP doesn't belong to them.

I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

 Grimstonefire wrote:
I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

You'd think at that point though that New Line Cinema is going to step in as well and bring their own weight to bear.

Well, take a look on what New Lice Cinema is doying to a pub named "The Shire" (or The Hobbit?).

From reading these threads it appear there are degrees to how much GW could effectively lose by .

CHS being cleared of infringing GW copyright / IP or
CHS being cleared as GW cant prove they own all of the Copyright / IP's they claim to own

I would hazard a guess that being judged to not own these in the first place would lead to an appeal by GW , this would seem to be a far more serious situation for them .

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Well, take a look on what New Lice Cinema is doying to a pub named "The Shire" (or The Hobbit?).

Nothing.

Ian Mckellen and Stephen Fry intervened.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17433036

If GW loses, they will likely appeal. Same if Chapterhouse loses.

 Grimstonefire wrote:
I imagine if GW lose, there will be a hit to the profit and Loss with any damages, but otherwise they will largely remain the same.

If they have to pay substantial damages (over say £1m), then the share price will take a big hit, maybe 20-30%.

In terms of their future actions, they will just carry on 'as normal' imo. Sending out bullying letters (of a non-legal nature) to anyone they think is getting remotely close to IP, presuming and relying on it being unlikely there will be another pro bono company like CHS that will oppose them.

Where it could get really nasty would be if CHS were to start doing bits for LOTR models... That would be a lot more damaging to GW if they lose because New Line could put up the cost of the license if GW cannot be seen to be protecting their IP.

As the LOTR is not owned by GW the lawsuit would have no impact on any LORT stuff CHS would make. Also unlke GW everything in the LOTR world IS copy righted or trademaked. Even GW only has the right to make a model game for it, you can't lose someone else CR and TM, that are lincened to you.

GW doesn't seem like they intend to stop with C&Ds and lawsuits even if CH wins - GW intends to sue Chapterhouse again for products produced after the lawsuit started. (http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.250.0.pdf - page 15).

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but I wonder if we are already seeing the results of this regardless and specifically with the chaos codex? To be frank, the best thing I can ascribe to the model range contained in it is, well.. a little boring and unfinished? All of the rules in the book have models released for it, and there is very little room for customization as previous codecies have allowed. Also, some of the models look extremely rushed (the Mutilators for instance, which I think look almost comically bad).

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

If that is caused by this lawsuit then GW are triply to blame.

1. They didn't have to take the suit.
2. Before taking it, they should have made sure of their legal position.
3. A £130 million company based on producing model soldiers really should be able to produce some decent model soldiers.
(There are about 80 people in the design studio. What do they all do all day?)

 Pacific wrote:
There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

I think that's the future if GW can't bully 3rd party bits makers out of the market. But there will still be demand for chapter/clan specific modifications, weapons changes, purely cosmetic changes and cheaper proxies.

Herzlos wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book. And I have to say the end result is to the detriment of that book, and a worse product for the players.

I think that's the future if GW can't bully 3rd party bits makers out of the market. But there will still be demand for chapter/clan specific modifications, weapons changes, purely cosmetic changes and cheaper proxies.

I honestly find this the best for the game. Having people need to go to third party companies for whole units is terrible. The fact that everything in the codex has a model is very good. Companies like chapterhouse are always best for, as you said, bits. Alternate heads/shoulderpads/weapons/etc. The worst thing is when there is no model, so 3 third party models pop up all with different dimensions. There needs to be a baseline official model.

 Pacific wrote:

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book.

Actually I would say that there is a lot of scope. Deamon engines certainly won't all look the same and the current models have enough detractors that there is a ready market for well designed alternatives. To be honest you could even make something that looks very similar and call it something else (space dragon etc) and in all likelyhood you will be in the clear.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

3. A £130 million company based on producing model soldiers really should be able to produce some decent model soldiers.
(There are about 80 people in the design studio. What do they all do all day?)

Not everyone in the design studio is involved in production of "model soldiers".

The design studio includes the Codex writers, the artists, layout designers, etc.

I know that, however the rate of output is still seemingly very low, considering how much stuff (art, fluff) is recycled.

Besides, layout is really quite quick and easy. I used to do three monthly 64 page magazines by myself, in the early 90s, on computers which were less powerful than an iPod.

What I think happens is that huge amounts of stuff is rejected and we never see it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I know that, however the rate of output is still seemingly very low, considering how much stuff (art, fluff) is recycled.

Besides, layout is really quite quick and easy. I used to do three monthly 64 page magazines by myself, in the early 90s, on computers which were less powerful than an iPod.

What I think happens is that huge amounts of stuff is rejected and we never see it.

if a large amount of concepts and ideas are going to waste then what the hell are they paying the guys for? More to the point why are people working at GW? for the adoration of the sweaty masses at GD when something goes vaguely how the internets expects it to be?

It certainly isn't for the money.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

if a large amount of concepts and ideas are going to waste then what the hell are they paying the guys for?

The occasional, rare good idea.

To be fair, at least 80 per cent of ideas are rubbish in any creative industry, and you have to generate and pay for those as a necessity for getting the good ones.

Palindrome wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book.

Actually I would say that there is a lot of scope. Deamon engines certainly won't all look the same and the current models have enough detractors that there is a ready market for well designed alternatives. To be honest you could even make something that looks very similar and call it something else (space dragon etc) and in all likelyhood you will be in the clear.

Agreed. Silly Dinobots and the space dragon are pretty weak designs that don't fit well with the Chaos aesthetic (IMO). The demon engines of each Chaos power in the previous fluff are wildly different in appearance and function and these new models do not reflect that at all. Have not seen much in the way of power specific conversions. The only difference seems to be paint colors.

I think there is a pretty good potential market out there for well sculpted alternate demon engines, especially now that GW is no longer running tournaments in the US.

I will be looking for (or building) possible alternatives...

Tim

Would love to be able to buy plasma/meltaguns third party for cheap. Of course, I'd love it even more if they actually came included in the guardsmen box set.

I guess GW could do something drastic like slash the amount of new releases, get rid of most of their creative side and focus on the bread and butter - selling people kits of their model soldiers. Actually wouldn't bother me that much, it's very rare nowadays that GW release something, in 40k at least, that actually makes me think "oh crap that looks good". Forgeworld is a different thing altogether, of course...

It's my hope that this'll lead to a more healthy ecosystem where thirdparty suppliers are not frowned upon.
Diversity is a good thing imho.

And the third parties are from my research not supplanting GWs products in any significant manner.

 xcasex wrote:

And the third parties are from my research not supplanting GWs products in any significant manner.

What exactly is your "research"?

Chances are, in the next month or two we'll see 50 billion hobbit releases. (A conservative estimate). - That'll be where a lot of sculptors have been spending their time I'd guess.

I wonder if New Line will be wanting to 'approve' them again so they'll have needed to be done early.

 Testify wrote:
Would love to be able to buy plasma/meltaguns third party for cheap. Of course, I'd love it even more if they actually came included in the guardsmen box set.

I guess GW could do something drastic like slash the amount of new releases, get rid of most of their creative side and focus on the bread and butter - selling people kits of their model soldiers. Actually wouldn't bother me that much, it's very rare nowadays that GW release something, in 40k at least, that actually makes me think "oh crap that looks good". Forgeworld is a different thing altogether, of course...

GW have never been interested in producing an optimized box set. Their intention has always been for hobbyists to buy multiple kits to bulk out their armies. Redundant 'Bitz' are cool, apparently.

I thought Forgeworld would be GW's tuning division when it came along, pumping out specials and the occasional codex entry that GW didn't supply in plastics. Nevermind, other companies can do that.

 Testify wrote:

 xcasex wrote:

And the third parties are from my research not supplanting GWs products in any significant manner.

What exactly is your "research"?

Published market data from various sources, including companies that produce their own games. It was collated since we're getting into it ourselves, and we wanted some hard stats so that we could make estimates on production etc.

This debate always seems to drop down to two postions.

1. The law allows Chapterhouse (insert name X here) to make after market peices and this does not infringe on GW's IP

2. The law does not allow Chapterhouse (insert name X here) to make after market peices and this does infringe on GW's IP

Personally, I don't care if the law does or does not. I think that GW is an acting monopoly and should be spilt just like Microsoft should have been, just like BOA should be, just like ATT was.
If GW is in fact a Monopoly then anything they press for is a gross abuse of power by a monopoly.

Go Go Chapterhouse

I understand your feeling however GW is not really near to a monopoly.

Firstly, there are many other companies in the wargames line of business.

Secondly, if you want to play GW games, you don't have to use GW models (except in an official tournament or GW shop, and there are many unofficial tournaments and shops/clubs).

 Bodichi wrote:


Personally, I don't care if the law does or does not. I think that GW is an acting monopoly and should be spilt just like Microsoft should have been, just like BOA should be, just like ATT was.
If GW is in fact a Monopoly then anything they press for is a gross abuse of power by a monopoly.

Go Go Chapterhouse

Wow. What are you talking about? What are they monopolizing?
Table top gaming? If you think that you're incredibly sheltered from the hobby.
Warhammer? Well....no gak. Privateer Press also has a "monopoly" on Warmachine/Hordes, Corvus Belli has a "monopoly" on Infinity, how many more equally ridiculous comparisons do you want?

Have you browsed New and Rumours on Dakka lately? You can buy your entire marine army and IG army without giving a penny to GW. Right now. Without any judgement for or against this boring little company.
There's a Kickstarter running right now (Assimilation Alien Host) that could give you a full counts as Tyranid army for $200 in plastic. Dreamforge games is, right now, producing awesome IG/Marine equivalents....with vehicles, Knights...and Titans.
What else are you looking for? There's never been more diversity in models or games so easily available to gamers as their are right now.

If I remember correctly, it's less of a what options do you have, but it's how big of a market share does the company have.

Edit: believe I am wrong lol

Suffice it to say that GW does not meet any legal definition of "monopoly."

And then let's return to the topic.

I can only hope this will make GW have models for all of their units in the codex. I don't think anything will stop the 3rd party producers from making things for GW models since they can get really creative with wording and whatnot. Also as long as I've played GW always shorts you on weapons and whatnot for various units. Do I really want a havok squad with only one of every weapon?

Awsering the OP initial question:

THE EMPEROR WILL RAISE FROM HIS THRONE, imcapable to bear such a degree of heresy, and awakened once again, he will unite the Space Marines, the Empireal Forces and the Xeno Scum. With all this force, him shall purge the infidels and all the evil things on "third party" figures with flaming swords and burning winds. Every non GW model will melt down where it stands, every count-as army will blown up in the shelfs and army cases they where occupying. And in the end of the battle, there will be only Games Workshop.

But the most probable is the emperor will not give a shist, will stay dead there, and GW will finally face some decent concorrency...

 The Foot wrote:
I can only hope this will make GW have models for all of their units in the codex.

They're already doing it, plus some hasty waves to fill some gaps in older books. This lawsuit was apparently the driving force behind releasing everything within two months of a book, like they've done with Grey Knights and Necrons (sans some characters), and the Fantasy releases like Vampire Counts and Empire. Also why some dog gak bad models like the old Fellbats have remained in circulation as Finecast models.

Maybe it'll make GW make Combi-Weapon packs like their Meltagun / Plasma Rifle pack.

That or there'll be more competition for Chapterhouse, and I don't have to pay 5$ a bolter.

Assuming a full blown CHS win -

Short term: gw files an appeal. Meanwhile CHS gets a little more bold and comes out with a full product ( not a kit ) of the exact same name as gw product; however it will be a female version. This is a variation on the existing female version, slightly different name. Purpose: continued testing of ip boundaries by leal team. Survivability of CHS not a concern.

Other bitz makers go ahead and release various weapon addons with the correct names. Gw sends c&d however most ignore it.

The quality is all over the place; although even gw's quality for these items is dubious at best, so it's a complete mixed bag.

Mid term: gw tells design team to make a better product. Design team blames production. production blames mold makers. Mold makers blame designers. Somebody gets fired; but its the wrong person. However, no real changes occur. Continues court case with CHS, to point of appeal exhaustion.

Long term: gw revamps several lines in order to completely secure ip lineage. Codexes released changing the names of weapons and certain units. Lots of things renamed and completely redone.

At no point are prices lowered by gw. In several areas they ill be raised to give the appearance of a premium product.

Here's how I see GW appeal going.

GW Legal Team: "We would like to file an appeal"
Appeal Court: "Under what grounds?"
GW Legal Team: "Wait, we need a reason to file an appeal?"
Appeal Court: "Motion for an appeal denied."

That being said, if GW loses this case does that mean we might actually see a plastic sister of battle?

 Necrosis wrote:
Here's how I see GW appeal going.

GW Legal Team: "We would like to file an appeal"
Appeal Court: "Under what grounds?"
GW Legal Team: "Wait, we need a reason to file an appeal?"
Appeal Court: "Motion for an appeal denied."

That being said, if GW loses this case does that mean we might actually see a plastic sister of battle?

Already happened: They filed basically the same lawsuit a second time and hoped noone noticed. But the judge noticed

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Here's how I see GW appeal going.

GW Legal Team: "We would like to file an appeal"
Appeal Court: "Under what grounds?"
GW Legal Team: "Wait, we need a reason to file an appeal?"
Appeal Court: "Motion for an appeal denied."

That being said, if GW loses this case does that mean we might actually see a plastic sister of battle?

Already happened: They filed basically the same lawsuit a second time and hoped noone noticed. But the judge noticed

Filing an amended lawsuit is not the same as appeals, nor is it "filing the same lawsuit a second time".

In fairness you're both right. GW thinks it is a completely separate case as it refers to complete pieces as opposed to parts. However the court seems to think that it is simply an extension of the original case.

The important point is that the judge wants both considered as the one case.

Cheers

Andrew

Palindrome wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

There is absolutely (well, almost) no room for someone like CHS to step in and make a model of anything in that book.

Actually I would say that there is a lot of scope. Deamon engines certainly won't all look the same and the current models have enough detractors that there is a ready market for well designed alternatives. To be honest you could even make something that looks very similar and call it something else (space dragon etc) and in all likelyhood you will be in the clear.

If we really analyze it, aren't a lot of the 3rd party mini parts 'generic' stuff like bases, alternate guns, etc. then semi-generic like shoulder pads or helmeted heads? "Missing" sculpts or conversion kits for things without specific models seems like a small niche for these companies compared to doing generic <Culture> Shoulder Pads and <Culture> Head kits.

(I'm generally on Chapterhouse's side here as I don't think they've really infringed in IP ina major way. Possibly some ground for using terms in ways they shouldn't in a few incidents, but that's about it.But that's just my opinion, of course.)

clively wrote:
Short term: gw files an appeal. Meanwhile CHS gets a little more bold and comes out with a full product ( not a kit ) of the exact same name as gw product; however it will be a female version. This is a variation on the existing female version, slightly different name. Purpose: continued testing of ip boundaries by leal team. Survivability of CHS not a concern.

CHS have already done this short of naming them after GW models. Their Warrior Preistess is a female Striking Scorpion with the missing Chainsabres upgrade (and is the only CHS product I actually like), and the Doomseer is very definitely a female Farseer or Warlock. They also have a Doom of Malantai all cast up and ready to go, which they initially advertised as the Doom of Malantai just before this case started. They decided to not release it when the case started up.