So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma. But i want to know what Angorn inherited? was it the Emperors fury or was his inheritance taken away buy his implants he received as a child turning him into the psycho that he was. How ever his legion was notable for there fury before Angorn joined them so maybe he was abit of a psycho to start with and the implants amplified this.
My second question is if Angorn was the emperors Fury why did the Emperor create Angorn at all? Its said that Russ was to be the emperors executioner, Horus was to lead the other primarchs, Roboute was to build empires and so on. But what possible role would Angorn have filled in the emperors supreme plan when he first devised it.
I think that Angron was, ironically, the Emperor's warhound. He wasn't just sent into battle or held the same position as Russ, but rather, he was unleashed as a fear tactic only someone like himself could be.
I'd tend to think that Angron is the Emperor's passion, and a dark reflection of Sanguinus. Angron also differed from Russ in that had the Emperor told the Wolves to stop, they'd stop. The World Eaters would just keep killing until there was nothing left by broken chainaxe teeth, ashes, and silence.
Angron and Sanguinius seem to be very similar, yet opposites. Almost like a ying and yang. Angron is known as the Red Angel, Sanguinius simply as the Angel. Angron wears his emotion (anger) on his sleeve and seethes with violence. Sanguinius' anger is subdued with a veneer of civilized behavior and appreciation for art and beauty, however the same anger is so rooted in the BA that it manifests itself as the red thirst and black rage. I forget which novel in HH but dorm is mulling over Angron and believes that only horus or Sanguinius could best Angron in combat.
burnaboy wrote: So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma. But i want to know what Angorn inherited? was it the Emperors fury or was his inheritance taken away buy his implants he received as a child turning him into the psycho that he was. How ever his legion was notable for there fury before Angorn joined them so maybe he was abit of a psycho to start with and the implants amplified this.
My second question is if Angorn was the emperors Fury why did the Emperor create Angorn at all? Its said that Russ was to be the emperors executioner, Horus was to lead the other primarchs, Roboute was to build empires and so on. But what possible role would Angorn have filled in the emperors supreme plan when he first devised it.
Both questions have the same answer. And that is that Angron lost his legacy when the Butcher's Nails were installed.
Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.
Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.
EDIT: Actually, Stonerhino already said this better than I could. The only thing I disagree with is that the Butcher's Nails may have actually affected Angron more than a normal man; it's said several times that they were not designed to work with a Primarch's brain chemistry.
So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?
Because Angron is his son and showed ability as a natural leader. It's not like he threw away Kurz, who was similarly "broken".
Angron might have turned out fine (If a bit insane) if the Big E had just teleported down there and helped him with his rebellion.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: So maybe a better question to ask is why did the emperor allow Angron to take control of his legion seeing as he was damaged goods by the time the big E found him?
Possibility 1.
He had already lost two of his children and despite Angrons flaws, was not going to lose another. Angron despite of his totality and attitude towards the Emperor was loyal.
Possibility 2.
The Emperor knew that he would become the Prince of Blood and thought that he could delay the inevitable by having him at his side.
If he would have left Angron on Dulan to die with his sisters and brothers, Khorne would have had a champion far sooner and the Emperor another lost son.
Angron could be any part of the Emperors character, it could be his pride, his honour, his rage, his anger obviously. The problem is that with his upbringing as a slave and the Butchers Nails, his identity has been changed.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd tend to think that Angron is the Emperor's passion, and a dark reflection of Sanguinus. Angron also differed from Russ in that had the Emperor told the Wolves to stop, they'd stop. The World Eaters would just keep killing until there was nothing left by broken chainaxe teeth, ashes, and silence.
I like this answer, I too think he was the manifest of the emperors passion, but was sadly a bit too damaged for it to truly shine through as it probably could have without the butcher's nails.
Angron is easily my favourite primarch as there is so much potential boiling within the absolute rage, the Dornian Heresy as mentioned before shows a really interesting version of Angron.
Most literally, he inherited a Black Sword directly from the Emperor (Sigismund's was a copy of this). Although you won't find many people that remember Angron was a sword-man, and not an axe-man these days.
I think that its worth considering that angron was created as the aggressive bad guy to balance out the aggressive good guy, and the aspect of the emperor thing was just an afterthought.
Having said that, if you keep the comparison to Russ going, there are clear differences between the two...Clearly from the thousand sons/space wolf heresy books, Russ is the executioner, but he doesnt relish in it - he himself (i think), clearly states he is sentto do these horrid things basically only because hes the only one who isnt afraid to get his hands dirty when commanded to get a job done.
i always think the executioner mantle these books have given him is incorrect - he literally is the emperors pet dog rather than his executioner.
Hes loyal, dutiful behind the savage facade, and will do anything hes commanded however distasteful it would seem.
so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done.
Angron on the other hand is the emperors brutality. At the end of the day, it takes a man with a VERY vicious streak to conquer earth and the entire galaxy, slaughtering millions in the brutal, unforgiving, savage and frankly evil way he tried.
"side with me or i will slaughter your entire world". you have 10 minutes to decide.
It takes a special kind of psychopath to head up such a genocidal crusade <cough hitler cough>.
therefore again, i think angron represents the emperorsinner aggression/brutality/evilness/psychopathy
edit: highlighted inner psycho, as has been mentioned with a different upbringing it may have been different. but regardless he shared with his father that inner potential. his past just amplified it. like all reall life nutters and serial killers - at the end of the day, its in them, and all they are waiting for is a trigger
..Clearly from the thousand sons/space wolf heresy books, Russ is the executioner, but he doesnt relish in it - he himself (i think), clearly states he is sentto do these horrid things basically only because hes the only one who isnt afraid to get his hands dirty when commanded to get a job done.
Um. No.
Going by the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves heresy books, one of the characters in these books (not even a Space Marines) voices his thoughts on the matter, arguing that Space Wolves might be a purposeful creation of the Emperor to deal with other upstart Space Marines.
Clearly though, it was not written in the voice of the omniscient narrator, nor the voice of an influential character "in the know", nor confirmed anywhere else. So I would exactly call it a fact. Just a neat theory.
Going by the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves heresy books, one of the characters in these books (not even a Space Marines) voices his thoughts on the matter, arguing that Space Wolves might be a purposeful creation of the Emperor to deal with other upstart Space Marines.
Clearly though, it was not written in the voice of the omniscient narrator, nor the voice of an influential character "in the know", nor confirmed anywhere else. So I would exactly call it a fact. Just a neat theory.
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.
This is a good answer.
The butcher's nails erased the part of Angron that he was supposed to represent, which makes his story that much more tragic.
The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.
DarknessEternal wrote: Most literally, he inherited a Black Sword directly from the Emperor (Sigismund's was a copy of this). Although you won't find many people that remember Angron was a sword-man, and not an axe-man these days.
He's both. As an expert gladiator, I'd expect as much.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.
Leaving his gladiatorial buddies behind to die was a bad move. Big E could have just teleported down with some Custodes and kicked ass with his new Son.
Didn't Angron murder eldar assassins when he was still a child, i.e. before the butchers nails? He was probably already fairly aggressive/brutal when he came to. I'd imagine Angron would have been Russ's executioner if it need to be done.
Medium of Death wrote: Didn't Angron murder eldar assassins when he was still a child, i.e. before the butchers nails? He was probably already fairly aggressive/brutal when he came to.
I wasn't aware that self-defense counts as aggressive and brutal. The Eldar tried to assassinate him, he killed them.
so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done.
Follow the right order to bitter end, do the same to oppose wrong one, do something that all others are afraid|ashamed|fear to do but is necessary...to me SWs are Resolution.
And Angron...he's wrath, primordial, unbound and allconsuming.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: The man was a lunitic plain and simple even before the butchers nails who highten agression, the only tragidy I feel is for his victims. He murdered at least 7 loyal Astartes just for wanting to say...um excuse me could you take command of the legion please, pycho it not the word.
Note that this was after the Emperor left everyone that Angron had ever considered to be friend or family to die instead of helping them, which he almost certainly could have. I think it'd be fair to be a bit unhinged after that. And why would he want to serve the man who had shown withing minutes of them first meeting to have no honour as far as Angron was concerned (he refused to help for an unspecified reason, pretended to accept Angron's decision to fight to the death with his friends and then teleported him onto his ship anyway)?
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Not saying it doesn't fit.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.
Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
i think we are more in agreement than we think - i dont think for a second that russ was created to execute other legions or other baddies. my thought in my first post was:
"i always think the executioner mantle these books have given him is incorrect - he literally is the emperors pet dog rather than his executioner.
Hes loyal, dutiful behind the savage facade, and will do anything hes commanded however distasteful it would seem.
so in my opinion russ typifies the emperors loyalty, and "ill do it because it must be done and noone else will do it" attitude - russ is the side of the emperor that delivered the wolves to do what they did to one of the unknown legions. it saddened him greatly and brought a tear to his eye, but he knew it must be done."
i do believe that russ was literally a loyal dog to the emperor and showed all his doggy traits! - loyaltly, blind obedience, relentlessness and all of that jazz - matches the legion name and demographic perfectly.
Russ could equally have been made to show the emperors awesomeness.
ENOZONE wrote: he was unleashed as a fear tactic only someone like himself could be
Dang, coolest answer on the first reply!
But a couple of the Legions have that reputation, where armies just surrender upon hearing so-and-so is coming.
As for what aspect of the Emperor Angron represents -- not to be too obvious but ... I think it's anger, guys. Hear me out: we almost never get to see the Emperor angry so we have this idea that he's always cool and collected. But I'd be angry if I were the Emperor. Think of the massive responsibility he has. Think of how angry it would make you to have to conquer humanity because you're trying to save it (yes, I'm making some assumptions there). At the Emperor's level, most beings are the equivalent of idiot toddlers. It has to be infuriating to deal with them in trying to run an interstellar Imperium. And of course the main question is "WHY ME?" or, taking a cue from Deus Ex, "I didn't ask for this." This is the point of Angron's story -- his goals were basically petty and he refused to give them up when the Emperor showed up. So the Emperor forced him to do it: the Emperor perfected him by giving him something that would always piss him off -- the Emperor turned the gladiator rebel back into a slave. Like the Emperor himself, Angron would be shackled to the service of humanity.
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Not saying it doesn't fit.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.
Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.
The "Biased" character is an IG (Imperial Army) commander who faught with Blood Angels, Death Guard, White Scars and Space Wolves. Says everyone has heard rumors of "Monster" Legions and the Space Wolves are the worst of all of them. He then voices the question that (much like yourself) as to why the Space Wolves were made how they are. And he has basically the same answers you have. A: The Emperor just made them or B: The Emperor sees threats that noone else sees.
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Back on topic:
How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.
However I like to believe that Angron represents the Emperor's Determiniation. His mind is just broken and he is unable to control his force of will. Which makes Angron a sad story because what should have been a gift from the Emperor has become his prison. In that he is unable to pick his goals. There is only the rage and his determination constantly pushing him to that end. Like a weapon he can only ever be pointed at the enemy and told to attack. Never being able to rise above it. Even as a Deamon Prince he is still just a slave killing for the amuzement of his master.
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Well, Dan Abnett also said that his novels (and to a lesser degree all of BL) should not be taken as canon, but as "a different interpretation" of the game/universe, a "right" they actually fought for to get out of GW's creative control.
Start 17.40 or 17.50
But I wasn't aware of the Battle of Fang / Fear to Tread references.. haven't read those. Thanks for those.
Stonerhino wrote: How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.
No no, we have two demi-gods to base our theories on and at least one of them, the Emperor, is arguably of sound mind. How do we know Angron is not the "Emperor's Calm"? Because the Emperor himself gave Angron something to be eternally pissed about upon their reunion.
Yeah this is the latest cop-out BL authors are taking. I had a talk with Aaron Dembski-Bowden on Dakka about this a few months ago as he mentioned it on one of his blog posts that Lynata subsequently quoted here. Lynata is forever reminding people that there is no canon in 40k, that everything is a slanted, perspective-driven camp fire story. To her credit, she got it from them. But it's certainly nothing to their credit! Whether this comes down from Nottingham or is really, as ADB suggests, the BL authors' own pursuit of artistic license, it strikes me as nothing but a catch-all excuse for poor research, disagreement between authors, and the shifting needs of the brand. My own conclusion is that while we can't glean much about extremely particular but ultimately incidentally matters (how bolters work), we can certainly cleave to broad-stroke "facts" like "there are 18 primarchs." Now, does the character of the Space Wolves fit more into the former or latter category? It seems to me more a matter of canon than not that the SW were engineered as guard dogs.
Stonerhino wrote: How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.
No no, we have two demi-gods to base our theories on and at least one of them, the Emperor, is arguably of sound mind. How do we know Angron is not the "Emperor's Calm"? Because the Emperor himself gave Angron something to be eternally pissed about upon their reunion.
Well, Angron didn't exactly set the precedence for a good relationship. The Emperor goes to talk to him and Angron slays two of his Custodian bodyguards, not saying that the Emperor was right to just abduct Angron, but maybe if the angry lad had not upset the Emperor, he might have helped, like he did with Corax.
You say that but do we know how the Emperor approached Angron?
We know that the battle was raging around the Angron, the Emperor goes out to save Angron I guess, Emperor does a Kyle Reese but Angron doesn't buy it, Angron kills I think its two Custodes and then the Emperor teleports him off world to the Warhounds ship.
I can see the Emperor being pissed at Angron after he's killed his bodyguards, but beforehand, when they first meet, not so much. He's probably proud of his son at this point, seeing him defiant and in full battle mode.
You say that but do we know how the Emperor approached Angron?
I was assuming your argument: Angron pissed off the Emperor so the Emperor pissed off Angron. In effect, Angron is the Emperor's RAAAAAAAGE.
Oh .. quite.
I was just getting a bit deeper into it Manchu. I definitely think that Angron is the Emperors rage or anger more than anything else. But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
burnaboy wrote: So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma.
Eh, I would like to see a list of these alleged "many" novels. Although the Emperor did experiment and tinker with their various biologies, their personality and characteristics for the most part seem to originate from their upbringing. Guilliman was raised by an administrator, and became the best administrator ever. Corax landed on a planet that required extreme stealth, and all of a sudden he can become invisible. Horus was basically raised by the Emperor, hence him being the jack-of-all-trades megalomaniac.
Angron was just another son, designed to fight the Emperor's Crusades, and then die if he became obsolete or an inconvenience.
Well, Angron didn't exactly set the precedence for a good relationship. The Emperor goes to talk to him and Angron slays two of his Custodian bodyguards, not saying that the Emperor was right to just abduct Angron, but maybe if the angry lad had not upset the Emperor, he might have helped, like he did with Corax.
The Butchers Nails ruined Angrons mentality.
Pretty sure the thing is said to go roughly like: Emperor teleports down to talk to Angron and tries to get him to leave his comrades. Angron refuses, the Emperor teleports up and then teleports Angron up. Angron's comrades get slaughtered, Angron kills a Custodes, Emperor teleports him to the War Hounds ship.
The Emperor did indeed give him a reason to be eternally pissed off. I do, however, like the theory that the Emperor didn't save his Angrons friends because of STC technology or some such on the planet itself, which might have been lost had compliance been forced.
burnaboy wrote: So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma.
Eh, I would like to see a list of these alleged "many" novels. Although the Emperor did experiment and tinker with their various biologies, their personality and characteristics for the most part seem to originate from their upbringing. Guilliman was raised by an administrator, and became the best administrator ever. Corax landed on a planet that required extreme stealth, and all of a sudden he can become invisible. Horus was basically raised by the Emperor, hence him being the jack-of-all-trades megalomaniac.
Angron was just another son, designed to fight the Emperor's Crusades, and then die if he became obsolete or an inconvenience.
And just to add to what Omegus says, these are the Primarchs opinions on each other and aren't necessarily shared. As with all siblings, as the series is progressing we are seeing individual attitudes of Primarchs and their feelings towards their brothers and it's interesting to see how some act when they are talking to one about another.
Pretty sure the thing is said to go roughly like: Emperor teleports down to talk to Angron and tries to get him to leave his comrades. Angron refuses, the Emperor teleports up and then teleports Angron up. Angron's comrades get slaughtered, Angron kills a Custodes, Emperor teleports him to the War Hounds ship.
As the IA article puts it, yes, this is how it happens. But After De'shea has Angron slay the Custodians on the mountain before he is teleported off world. Angron mentions that he killed them before he was pushed into the blinding light, or something along those words.
The Emperor did indeed give him a reason to be eternally pissed off. I do, however, like the theory that the Emperor didn't save his Angrons friends because of STC technology or some such on the planet itself, which might have been lost had compliance been forced.
Hmm, that could be a reason. But there is no trace of Angrons homeworld apparently and nothing is mentioned of where the World Eaters recruited from nor what happened on the planet during the great crusade. It's not likely that it was not imperialised like Caliban or Kiavahr. Would Angron, now with a Legion of super enhanced warriors, not take revenge on those that had enslaved him?
Pilau Rice wrote: But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
I tend to think of the creation of the Primarchs as analogous to Tolkien's description of Fëanor creating the Silmarils: a totally unique, unrepeatable act of artistry that reflects the very being of the artist. So just as Fëanor's own innermost character, his jealousy and pride, was expressed in the ultimate destiny of the Silmarils, so too are the aspects of the Emperor's character -- intentionally or otherwise -- expressed in his sons.
Pilau Rice wrote: But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
I tend to think of the creation of the Primarchs as analogous to Tolkien's description of Fëanor creating the Silmarils: a totally unique, unrepeatable act of artistry that reflects the very being of the artist. So just as Fëanor's own innermost character, his jealousy and pride, was expressed in the ultimate destiny of the Silmarils, so too are the aspects of the Emperor's character -- intentionally or otherwise -- expressed in his sons.
So Angron was actually made to be a nutter and the Butchers Nails just added extra levels of crazy to him. I can go with that.
However it came to pass, it is known that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the bleeding figure of the Primarch, surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern mountains. History does not record to what race these aliens belonged, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar, perhaps attacking the Primarch with some foreknowledge of what the future held for him.
This is possibly made a point of again in Butchers Nails. Here's a thought, what if the Emperor knew the same and abducted him for this reason, to either deny Khorne or to at least delay the inevitable?
1068SCP wrote: Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.
The problem with these kind of answers is that it doesn't necessarily fit how the World Eaters were also inherently barbaric. Changing how someone thinks doesn't change their genetic make up which the legion would be created from. I suppose you could argue that a crazy, blood thirsty leader would beget crazy, blood thirsty followers, but I don't buy that they would all be like that.
1068SCP wrote: Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.
The problem with these kind of answers is that it doesn't necessarily fit how the World Eaters were also inherently barbaric. Changing how someone thinks doesn't change their genetic make up which the legion would be created from. I suppose you could argue that a crazy, blood thirsty leader would beget crazy, blood thirsty followers, but I don't buy that they would all be like that.
The Warhounds were relentless and savage compared to some other chapters but they weren't anywhere near as flying rodent gak crazy as they are after Angron gets reunited with them.
Pilau Rice wrote: So Angron was actually made to be a nutter and the Butchers Nails just added extra levels of crazy to him. I can go with that.
Of course none of us know what the Emperor intended Angron to be but the events do neatly point out that, whatever the Emperor intended, Angron certainly mirrors whatever part of the Emperor is violently angry.
I think it would be prudent to just keep in mind that things were developed back-to-front.
First, they had Khorne Berzerkers for Chaos Space Marines. They were the "angry" assault-type in the mix.
Than the build an evil Space Marines legions around it, the World Eaters, which is made up of those. And they made its leader a particularly angry Daemon Prince called Angron.
Than they figured that, if they're a Traitor Legion now, they must've been a loyalist legion once.
Than the made them angry pre-heresy, both Legion and Primarch, to tell a credible story why the went Khorne.
Than they started adding details, first in "present day 40K", about implants and all.
Than they started to weave those details in backwards through the Legions history and up to the Primarch background
It's a bit like watching a movie like Memento. The story was written first and foremost to be cool if told from the present backwards.
It might not always be all that watertight if you tell it from the past forward.
In Raven's Flight Corax actually muses on "what part of the Emperor had been put into a beast like Angron". The most relevant quotes IMHO being:
"Corax was an immortal lord of battle, but Angron was war incarnate."
"He shuddered to think what Horus had promised the World Eater in return for his betrayal of the Emperor. Conquest, no doubt, and glory in battle. Angron had craved these things more than any other primarch, though Corax and his brothers had all been created with a fierce military pride."
[On the idea of what Horus offered him:] "Freedom from holding back. Freedom from restrain. Freedom from guilt and orders. But freedom was not without its drawbacks. The primarchs and their warriors needed strucutre, needed purpose to focus their martial instincts. Without the guiding hand, once provided by the Emperor, now manipulated by Horus, the Legions were nothing more than a bolter without an eye to aim it."
No conclusions, but some more insight into possible answers to the OP's query.
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Not saying it doesn't fit.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.
Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.
The "Biased" character is an IG (Imperial Army) commander who faught with Blood Angels, Death Guard, White Scars and Space Wolves. Says everyone has heard rumors of "Monster" Legions and the Space Wolves are the worst of all of them. He then voices the question that (much like yourself) as to why the Space Wolves were made how they are. And he has basically the same answers you have. A: The Emperor just made them or B: The Emperor sees threats that noone else sees.
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Just to interject on this point, but at risk of dragging this dangerously off-topic, AD-B actually said on his FB that the Wolves aren't necessarily the Emperor's Executioner's, but this is an image they like to portray.
He makes a great point and is obviously a well-respected BL author and about as much a voice of authority as you'll get on the subject, however, it does of course go against the comment by Dan in the video above, and seems to undermine the efforts to portray them as executioners in at least Prospero Burns. #Canon?
It was in response to this extract from Betrayer: "And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"
Some quotes:
Adam Edwards:
I've always considered it a matter of suitability. Whilst all Legions are full fighting forces some are more suited to different roles. Want to defend a planet then Imperial Fist are your best bet. Want to assault a huge fortress then the Luna Wolves or Dark Angels or Blood Angels. Want to cut your enemies supply lines and escape routes then White Scars or perhaps Raven Guard. Whilst all Legions can fight whole wars each Legion leans towards an area where they excel. For the Wolves this is fighting other legions that coupled with the Canis Helix and totems protecting them from warp influence mean they're also better suited to face psykers too. This is not to say they couldn't be beaten far from it I'm merely stating if you had a legion you needed to take down hard and fast, put them out of action you'd probably want the Wolves.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
The Wolves agree with you, Adam. Just don't be shocked when most of the other Legions don't. Every Legion can point to 2 or 3 exceptions that would make them the best for killing other Legions. It's all propaganda. The Wolves are no better suited to that task than anyone.
David Martin:
If the Wolves truly are no better at fighting other Space Marines, except their mindset/lack of constraint, then could this not suggest their role as 'executioners' (as admitted by more than just Wolves, such as Kharn or even used as such by Malcador) is either inaccurate or exaggerated? Or that the differences between Legions (or matters of suitability as Adam mentioned, which I agree with) are overhyped?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I imagine, David, that many Legions and primarchs think Russ and his men invented their position, and consider him a self-appointed "executioner". Even the only incident of execution we've seen from them wasn't because the Emperor ordered it, but because Horus talked Russ into it.
David Martin:
I don't doubt that for a second, but doesn't Fear To Tread suggest its believed by others, really high up, as well?
Just to clarify, I'm not disputing what you're saying Aaron, you'll know more than me, just asking questions.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I'm sure others believe it, David. Malcador seems to. There's no evidence he believes the Wolves are better (he wouldn't, he's not that ignorant) but he might believe (or encourage) Russ's claim of executioner. But...
When the Emperor wanted a Legion watched, he sent the Custodians. That's how crazy-important it was. He used his own bodyguards. Maybe in case they needed to take down a primarch. Maybe just because he trusted them above all others.
When the Wolves get sent to watch other primarchs and Legions, he doesn't have the authority to send the Custodians. Looks different in that light, no?
Edited for clarity
To which someone came up with this interpretation, that I like:
Michał Kubiak:
I think that the main thing about Russ and his pups was always the fact that they chose to be whatever the Emperor needed them to be. There are no perfect Primarchs, they all made mistakes and paid for them, but in my opinion Russ is the one who would agree to be the boogeyman or the fool as required. In "Prospero Burns" one of the Wolves answers Hawser's question about whether or not they are capable of cannibalism with "We're capable of pretty much anything". That always struck me as meaningful. Maybe that's just me, though.
Didn't ADB invent the idea of the Emperor sending Custodes to watch the Word Bearers? So ... kind of a privileged argument, that. Meanwhile, back in Index Astartes, the Emperor orders Russ to take care of Magnus and Horus modified the order -- presumably from the Emperor -- that he kill Magnus. So ADB is all wet. Horus didn't talk Russ into it; Horus told Russ the Emperor changed his mind and wanted Magnus dead rather than captured. Russ found Horus's message believable enough, probably because (according to Index Astartes) he saw how furious the Emperor was when Magnus's psychic message to Terra breached the palace wards AND (according to A Thousand Sons) he was present when the Emperor said to Magnus that disobeying the Edict of Nikaea would make Magnus the Emperor's enemy.
What I take away from the whole episode is that the SW were uniquely well-suited, both in custom and temperament, to take on the Thousand Sons. To me, this suggests the Emperor had plotted that Russ should ultimately guard against Magnus -- and possibly though not necessarily all other SM legions. I believe that Magnus was always important to the Emperor's ultimate goal of sealing real space against the Immaterium.
As to the topic at hand, there's some more information from the latest FWHH book. When the XIIth Legion was raised, the Emperor screened recruits for agressiveness. Before ever reuniting with Angron, the Emperor had prepared a Legion of brutally violent warriors for his command. This suggests to me that the Emperor designed Angron to be what he is, more or less.
I personally support the notion that even IF we assume that each Primarch was either the reflection of a specific characteristic of the Emperor or tailor-built to serve some purpose, it is more than likely that whatever aspect or purpose was built into Angron was corrupted by the surgery he had as a slave. It is entirely likely that once the Emperor discovered what has happening to the World Eaters, he realized that they only thing that they were good for at this point was as a crazed beast to unleash upon his opponents, one that when the only important objective was destruction, he could point them in the general direction, say go, and then look away as the carnage began.
To which someone came up with this interpretation, that I like:
Michał Kubiak:
I think that the main thing about Russ and his pups was always the fact that they chose to be whatever the Emperor needed them to be. There are no perfect Primarchs, they all made mistakes and paid for them, but in my opinion Russ is the one who would agree to be the boogeyman or the fool as required. In "Prospero Burns" one of the Wolves answers Hawser's question about whether or not they are capable of cannibalism with "We're capable of pretty much anything". That always struck me as meaningful. Maybe that's just me, though.
this is pretty much what i was trying to say - they are whatever they are told to be by their master
Or maybe the Emperor did intend the SW to go up against the Thousand Sons as/when necessary and they ran with it, considering themselves (maybe with the Emperor's consent/encouragement) the anti-Legion Legion?
The unforeseen Flesh Change really had the Thousand Sons outmatched in that regard, so that must have been some epic Big E planning. What was their original name before Magnus was found out of interest? Or was it always "Thousand Sons", prophetic without making any sense at the time.
However there is the issue of ADB's words changing the way that some fans view the writing of other authors.
To explain: If any of the authors comes out and points to a single Legion/Primarch and says they are the best (at almost anything not already established) there will be a backlash. See the link I posted and how many times we have been involved in this debate. See the backlash from Night Lords and World Eater fans that sprang up as soon at that was posted.
ADB does a great job of being a "They are all equal" guy outside of the books. But even his own book (The Emperor's Gift) he portrays the Space Wolves as being exceptionally dangerous.
So if the Space Wolves' "Exceutioner" idea went without anyone getting upset. We would not see other authors portraying other legions in the same way. Night Lords and Space Wolves killing the Word Bearers in Aurelian or the World Eaters held up as executioners in Fear to Tread along with the Space Wolves.
Look at it like this.
The Space Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
Angron is Angron nothing else can be said, sure he is brutal, he is fierce but at the same time saying he had heightened aggression as a child sounds wrong remember lion he grew up on a planted that was full of chaos monstrosity's, i imagine the chaos monsters were beastmen offshoots. But either way lion did things he never talked about just like Angron. If Khorne wasent so boring in the fluff i would make a world eater army i love the idea behind them.
The Wolves agree with you, Adam. Just don't be shocked when most of the other Legions don't. Every Legion can point to 2 or 3 exceptions that would make them the best for killing other Legions. It's all propaganda. The Wolves are no better suited to that task than anyone.
All comes down to Russ, his ego and his love of bravado Jokes
Manchu wrote: Didn't ADB invent the idea of the Emperor sending Custodes to watch the Word Bearers? So ... kind of a privileged argument, that. Meanwhile, back in Index Astartes, the Emperor orders Russ to take care of Magnus and Horus modified the order -- presumably from the Emperor -- that he kill Magnus. So ADB is all wet. Horus didn't talk Russ into it; Horus told Russ the Emperor changed his mind and wanted Magnus dead rather than captured. Russ found Horus's message believable enough, probably because (according to Index Astartes) he saw how furious the Emperor was when Magnus's psychic message to Terra breached the palace wards AND (according to A Thousand Sons) he was present when the Emperor said to Magnus that disobeying the Edict of Nikaea would make Magnus the Emperor's enemy.
The difference between the Index Astartes article along with Collected Visions and the Heresy series is that Russ was with the Emperor at the time he gave the order to bring the Thousand Sons and Magnus to account. In the series Russ is on Shrike I think when the Emperor contacts him. So it makes kind of sense how Horus changes the order without Russ questioning it.
What I take away from the whole episode is that the SW were uniquely well-suited, both in custom and temperament, to take on the Thousand Sons. To me, this suggests the Emperor had plotted that Russ should ultimately guard against Magnus -- and possibly though not necessarily all other SM legions. I believe that Magnus was always important to the Emperor's ultimate goal of sealing real space against the Immaterium.
Yes! Nikaea was one way to hide the Emperors dirty secret that he bargained with the Dark Gods for power and the means to create the Primarchs. Magnus was still needed to be a battery for the Golden Throne, but could also be a leak of secret information and reveal this to his brothers. This is another theory that I have.
As to the topic at hand, there's some more information from the latest FWHH book. When the XIIth Legion was raised, the Emperor screened recruits for agressiveness. Before ever reuniting with Angron, the Emperor had prepared a Legion of brutally violent warriors for his command. This suggests to me that the Emperor designed Angron to be what he is, more or less.
Interesting.
Manchu wrote: But he had already built the Warhounds for that purpose long before meeting Angron the Gladiator.
I suppose this is why he was already an exceptional warrior before he was discovered by the Emperor.
Stonerhino wrote: e Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
Stonerhino wrote: The Space Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
Plus there's the whole widespread mutation incited by Tzeentch plaguing the Thousand Sons mid-battle thing. But that wasn't important, right?
Stonerhino wrote: e Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
The Thousand Sons were deliberately kept in the dark about the Wolves' approach by their own Primarch. The invasion caught them completely unprepared, no psychic forewarning, no planetary defense systems, no nothing. One of the Wolves commented that the PDF seemed to be in their parade uniforms. On top of that, the Wolves were reinforced by Custodians and Sisters of Silence. And still, once the Thousand Sons organized and started striking back, they utterly obliterated the opposition. The tide only turned once more when three things happened:
1.) Russ barged in, knocking out/killing a lot of psykers with his psychic howl (iiirony).
2.) Wolves unleashed the Wulfen, mutated freakish versions of themselves (iiiiiirony).
3.) Tzeench pushed the flesh-change button, and a bunch of the strongest TS self-destruct.
Stonerhino wrote:Both questions have the same answer. And that is that Angron lost his legacy when the Butcher's Nails were installed.
Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.
This is the correct answer.
Ultimately, Angron is a two dimensional cardstock villain that authors have had to retroactively try to apply a personality to. He was created at a time when pastiches were okay for characterization. Angron was Khorne's chosen and thus he was angry. His name may be historically inspired, but it isn't accidental in its phonetics, lol. Same reason the poor Dark Angels got saddled with Lionel Johnson and the Iron Hands with Ferrus Manus, lol. Legacies of the late 80s. Angron is ultimately a terribly uninteresting character. You have to give some of the Black Library authors credit for trying to salvage him and give him motivations and a place in the universe, but really, the less they talk about, and the less we know about Angron, the better. Ultimately, it requires a huge suspension of disbelief that the Emperor put down two legions for some reason, but was fine with a raving, uncontrollable, psychopath with debilitating neural implants leading another one.
I kinda wish they'd gone in a different direction with Angron, making him much more brooding, and sinister as a loyal primarch. If he made his transition to raving pyschopath after turning to Chaos (maybe he tunes up, or modifies the Nails in order to channel this new rage and power?), then you can understand why the Emperor let him stay in command of the Warhounds/World Eaters. As it is, you just assume that the Emperor lets this wacko stay because, well that was how it was written when there wasn't anything written about it, lol.
I kinda wish they'd gone in a different direction with Angron, making him much more brooding, and sinister as a loyal primarch. If he made his transition to raving pyschopath after turning to Chaos (maybe he tunes up, or modifies the Nails in order to channel this new rage and power?), then you can understand why the Emperor let him stay in command of the Warhounds/World Eaters. As it is, you just assume that the Emperor lets this wacko stay because, well that was how it was written when there wasn't anything written about it, lol.
It's not like the Emperor didn't try to keep Angron in check, but there is only so much you can do when you are at one side of space and your psychotic son the other. It eventually would have gotten to the stage of Curze where the Emperor would have had no choice but to act, maybe doing the same and dispatching the assassins.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: You have to give some of the Black Library authors credit for trying to salvage him and give him motivations and a place in the universe
Yes, Aaron Dembski-Bowden in particular has done him great credit. But I think you've missed the point of that work. To wit:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Ultimately, it requires a huge suspension of disbelief that the Emperor put down two legions for some reason, but was fine with a raving, uncontrollable, psychopath with debilitating neural implants leading another one. [...] As it is, you just assume that the Emperor lets this wacko stay because, well that was how it was written when there wasn't anything written about it, lol.
As I mentioned in this thread, the Emperor seems to have a pretty dark streak. We've seen some of that with regard to Magnus. We're seeing more of it with regard to Angron. Rather than the Emperor being a one-dimensional cardstock hero, the HH writers have given him a good deal of depth -- mostly at a distance because we learn about him through the Primarchs. Turns out that reconquering the galaxy involves some pretty vile stuff. Sometimes, you might even need to utterly butcher an entire planet. And maybe, just maybe, the Emperor isn't quite as wonderfully rational as he'd like everyone to believe. Maybe some of his decisions are made in blind rage. Angron puts the Emperor into a very disturbing light.
Also, the Butcher's Nails do not make Angron a HURRR-DURRR character. ADB portrays them as giving Angron a clarity of purpose that many of his brothers, loyalist and traitor, seem to utterly lack. Fans have blithely assumed that Angron has an overly-simplistic view of things (MAIM BURN KILL) but what if he's the one Primarch with the least delusions about what he and his brothers really are and what they were created to do.
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Pilau Rice wrote: It's not like the Emperor didn't try to keep Angron in check, but there is only so much you can do when you are at one side of space and your psychotic son the other. It eventually would have gotten to the stage of Curze where the Emperor would have had no choice but to act, maybe doing the same and dispatching the assassins.
According to Bligh, the Emperor reprimanded Angron by (1) forbidding his apothecaries to conduct the psycho-surgery that makes bezerkers and (2) sending him far from the civilized Imperium. Bligh basically says that Angron ignored the Emperor's command and delighted in his exile, which only further freed him from restraint. Just looking at this, one has to wonder how deeply committed the Emperor was to curbing Angron. It's a lot like Magnus, where the Emperor says "don't do X" and then let's you go about your merry way when you are completely and utterly known for doing X and in fact the Emperor even made you for the purpose of doing X. Unless the Emperor is a flat-out moron, it seems to me he must have been fomenting the Heresy himself.
Manchu wrote: Also, the Butcher's Nails do not make Angron a HURRR-DURRR character. ADB portrays them as giving Angron a clarity of purpose that many of his brothers, loyalist and traitor, seem to utterly lack. Fans have blithely assumed that Angron has an overly-simplistic view of things (MAIM BURN KILL) but what if he's the one Primarch with the least delusions about what he and his brothers really are and what they were created to do.
In fairness, he does go KILL MAIM BURN a lot of the time too, unless his craziness on Istvaan III was because he predicted that by delaying Horus there, he'd cause the Heresy to fail and create ten thousand years of war, which was what he wanted.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Ultimately, it requires a huge suspension of disbelief that the Emperor put down two legions for some reason, but was fine with a raving, uncontrollable, psychopath with debilitating neural implants leading another one. [...] As it is, you just assume that the Emperor lets this wacko stay because, well that was how it was written when there wasn't anything written about it, lol.
We don't know what the Legions were destroyed for though. It was obviously something beyond what the Emperor could tolerate, my guess is Warp worship. The Emperor above else wanted to keep Chaos a secret. As long as Angron remained non-Khornate the Emperor was willing to look the other way. He wouldn't be the first nutjob Primarch. Curze at any point makes Pre-Heresy Angron look positively sane.
And yes as another has mentioned the Emperor has a dark, vicious streak inside him. I consider this the most poignant description of the Emperor, given by an average human priest no less (in the short story "The Last Church").
"Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man"
Well Angron does have his uses IMHO. Ultimately, he's fighting for the Imperium (until the HH begins) and if you want something destroyed, you need look no further than the World Eaters.
When it's not a world you want pacifying or population 'enlightened', but rather a target destroyed, then that's where Angron and his boys excel and I could understand that as being why he was kept on board.
Whilst the majority of the Great Crusade was about bringing human worlds back into the fold of the Imperium, there were still vast numbers of Xenos and Xenos Empires to be destroyed without any human reintegration required (such as Ork Empires for example) and I could imagine that is where the World Eaters excel.
Great point about slaughtering Xenos. The HH book from FW mentions that the World Eaters scoured an entire craftworld of life before flinging it into a sun. So ... yeah ...
But I will quibble with your comment about "why he was kept on board" as I don't think it was a matter of tolerance so much as necessity. Bligh opens his chapter on the World Eaters by calling them a "Necessary Evil" and "monsters long before the Heresy." While the Emperor did not himself drive the Butchers Nails into Angron's skull, I doubt he was very displeased upon finding Angron this way.
Stonerhino wrote: e Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
The Thousand Sons were deliberately kept in the dark about the Wolves' approach by their own Primarch. The invasion caught them completely unprepared, no psychic forewarning, no planetary defense systems, no nothing. One of the Wolves commented that the PDF seemed to be in their parade uniforms. On top of that, the Wolves were reinforced by Custodians and Sisters of Silence. And still, once the Thousand Sons organized and started striking back, they utterly obliterated the opposition. The tide only turned once more when three things happened:
1.) Russ barged in, knocking out/killing a lot of psykers with his psychic howl (iiirony).
2.) Wolves unleashed the Wulfen, mutated freakish versions of themselves (iiiiiirony).
3.) Tzeench pushed the flesh-change button, and a bunch of the strongest TS self-destruct.
There's no point comparing Istvaan 3 and Prospero IMHO; they were wildly different scenarios minus the wholesale destruction and inclusion of Space Marines.
One involved 1-on-1 Legions, the other relatively tiny remnants of Legions holding out against their own former brothers. One involved a force caught off-guard but in familiar territory, the other slightly prepared but in relatively new, almost utterly destroyed territory. One had just Legionnaires and Titans, the other Legionnaires, Spireguard, Custodes, Sisters and a Titan.
I could go on, but it's stretching it to make a worthwhile comparison between the two IMHO.
Regarding the assault on Prospero, the Flesh Change wasn't entirely a bad thing for the Thousand Sons, as Chaos Spawn are powerful in themselves and would continue to fight the Space Wolves, possibly in a superior capacity to a Legionnaire. Also, whilst the possession of some powerful Thousand Sons by their tutelary/warp entity would destroy the Astartes, they also would go out with a bang as it were; unleashing immense power in their final moments.
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Manchu wrote: Great point about slaughtering Xenos. The HH book from FW mentions that the World Eaters scoured an entire craftworld of life before flinging it into a sun. So ... yeah ...
But I will quibble with your comment about "why he was kept on board" as I don't think it was a matter of tolerance so much as necessity. Bligh opens his chapter on the World Eaters by calling them a "Necessary Evil" and "monsters long before the Heresy." While the Emperor did not himself drive the Butchers Nails into Angron's skull, I doubt he was very displeased upon finding Angron this way.
Oh I agree (also with your previous point of the Emperor knowing what Angron was capable of/was like), that part (about being "kept on board") was in reference to someone's comment of why the Emperor would seemingly destroy 2 Primarchs/Legions, but not Angron.
Pilau Rice wrote: It's not like the Emperor didn't try to keep Angron in check, but there is only so much you can do when you are at one side of space and your psychotic son the other. It eventually would have gotten to the stage of Curze where the Emperor would have had no choice but to act, maybe doing the same and dispatching the assassins.
According to Bligh, the Emperor reprimanded Angron by (1) forbidding his apothecaries to conduct the psycho-surgery that makes bezerkers and (2) sending him far from the civilized Imperium. Bligh basically says that Angron ignored the Emperor's command and delighted in his exile, which only further freed him from restraint. Just looking at this, one has to wonder how deeply committed the Emperor was to curbing Angron. It's a lot like Magnus, where the Emperor says "don't do X" and then let's you go about your merry way when you are completely and utterly known for doing X and in fact the Emperor even made you for the purpose of doing X. Unless the Emperor is a flat-out moron, it seems to me he must have been fomenting the Heresy himself.
There seems to be a couple of things that the Emperor wasn't happy about and definitely censored Angron for something, the Ghenna Scouring according to the IA article.
The Emperor did try to stop his Sons when they were ... naughty. Lorgar for not doing much, Curze for being Batman, Magnus for his use of the arcane and Angron for being angry. It all does come down to the Emperor though, it's pretty clear that the Primarchs were made the way they are. I think that if they had all grown up on Terra where the Emperor could mould them to how they were supposed to be they would have been the generals he wanted. But their flaws were brought out and emphasized due to their upbringings away from the Emperor. Being around humans probably didn't help.
I think that maybe the Emperor knew that the Heresy was going to happen, but as he didn't know how it ended, wanted to ride it out to find out what was in store for him afterwards. Didn't turn out to be one of his better ideas.
In a way though what could the Emperor do? If he killed a Son every time one of them did bad he wouldn't have many left and I can't imagine those that were left would have stuck around very long lest they became another empty plinth in the Emperors Palace.
Pilau Rice wrote: I think that maybe the Emperor knew that the Heresy was going to happen, but as he didn't know how it ended ...
Agreed, mostly.
Malcador: Fully half of the Primarchs are rebelling! Emperor: You mean the Primarchs that I engineered to rebel? Inconceivable! Malcador: Oh, nevermind, I just thought -- Emperor: Totally inconceivable! Malcador: ...
So yeah, I think all signs point to him as the true architect of the Heresy. Whether everything went according to plan or not is the only question in my mind. So, for example, did the Emperor intend for Angron to be a butcher and have a strong motive to betray him? Yes, absolutely. Did the Emperor intend that Horus would intercept Russ on his way to Prospero with a change of orders regarding Magnus? That's a tougher question ...
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Pilau Rice wrote: If he killed a Son every time one of them did bad he wouldn't have many left and I can't imagine those that were left would have stuck around very long lest they became another empty plinth in the Emperors Palace.
I would like to see an Iron Hands HH novel, where the Emperor chastises Ferrus (or Vulkan or even Dorn) and Ferrus (or whoever) actually takes it to heart (unlike Angron, Magnus, and Lorgar). Actually, does something like that already exist?
Further evidence [" " needed?] of the Emperor knowing what was up was when Horus had his little vision, where the Emperor seemed to take the snatching of the Primarchs in stride and pleaded with the phantom before him not to undo his "great work" (he did not seem to recognize which particular son he was talking to, which makes sense since he had yet to recover them), and in Outcast Dead (if you want to accept that novel as existing, anyway), where he is explicitly told how the Heresy would play out, and decides to roll with it anyway because sometimes the only way not to lose is to not let the other guy win.
The Heresy, as everything else in 40K, was probably just part of the great game of Chaos that the Emperor has been playing all along.
Just Dave wrote: Regarding the assault on Prospero, the Flesh Change wasn't entirely a bad thing for the Thousand Sons, as Chaos Spawn are powerful in themselves and would continue to fight the Space Wolves, possibly in a superior capacity to a Legionnaire. Also, whilst the possession of some powerful Thousand Sons by their tutelary/warp entity would destroy the Astartes, they also would go out with a bang as it were; unleashing immense power in their final moments.
Potentially it could have been a not entirely bad thing for them, but it certainly worked out that way. The examples we see of this is one high-level TS letting himself be killed rather than be a spawn, and the other one exploded, taking out the core of the TS' defensive line. So no, it didn't work out for them at all.
Anyway, all these mentions of Bligh... I'm assuming you guys are referring to HH: Betrayal? I have it, but haven't had a chance to chew through the fluff yet. The rules are certainly over the top. Graviton guns everywhere! Great Crusade Legions were NOT to be fethed with.
The fluff is very, very good -- you can tell Bligh has spent a lot of time with Index Astartes.
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Pilau Rice wrote: There seems to be a couple of things that the Emperor wasn't happy about and definitely censored Angron for something, the Ghenna Scouring according to the IA article.
Which reminds me, I also wanted to respond to this. According to Bligh (again, he's read his IA), it was in the wake of the Ghenna Scouring that the Emperor called Angron in, forbade psycho-surgery, and sent him off. What do you mean by "a couple of things" though?
I think that maybe the Emperor knew that the Heresy was going to happen, but as he didn't know how it ended, wanted to ride it out to find out what was in store for him afterwards. Didn't turn out to be one of his better ideas.
My pet theory for years has been that the Emperor had fully planned the Heresy, and had guided several of his sons into falling to Chaos (looking at how he treated them, it's easy to determine which ones he was pushing in this direction).
The problem was that too many crossed over. He had probably accounted for maybe 4-5 Primarchs falling. Large enough to gather enough of Chaos's power together, yet small enough for the other 13-14 Legions to crush.
Not really. This character is about the violent dialectic between freedom and slavery. Angron alone of the Primarchs was enslaved. Angron alone was irreparably maimed by those who found him. Unlike his brothers, Angron did not seek to dominate the world where he was raised but only wanted freedom. He failed at this in a surprising way: death at the hands of the armies besieging his gladiator rebels was freedom; but the Emperor robbed him of that.
Angron became the leader of an army more powerful than his former captors could possibly imagine and yet he was more a slave than ever. (He wasn't even allowed to save his gladiator buddies.) Ironically, the Emperor did not keep Angron by his side to watch and train as he did with some of the other Primarchs but immediately turned him loose. And Angron's first act as Primarch was to change his legion's name in defiance of the Emperor: from obedient dogs to the eaters of worlds. In Angron's tortured mind, he was attempting to resolve his captivity in Imperial service with his deep need for freedom ... and then Horus had a chat with him ...
That's what the Butchers Nails are all about -- the thing that supposedly imprisons you makes you free -- or does it? Can a being, even a superhuman one, ever be free when he was created for a purpose? Of course, that makes us ask further, for what purpose? For whose purpose? Angron suggests that he will work to his own purposes but we know he ultimately pledges his allegiance to the Blood God and is transformed into a daemon prince. This echoes his reunification with the Emperor: he attains greater power but is still a slave just with a different master. Or is he? Is there freedom in carnage -- is there a difference, for example, between being manipulated by Tzeentch and pleasing Khorne?
I think all of this makes him a very ambiguous and interesting character. I can't help it if some folks refuse to see anything except MAIM BURN KILL. It doesn't mean there's not more there.
Stonerhino wrote: The Space Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
Plus there's the whole widespread mutation incited by Tzeentch plaguing the Thousand Sons mid-battle thing. But that wasn't important, right?
Pilau Rice wrote:I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
Angron, was attacking before the Traitors could bomb the place to dust. That's not a lot of time to prepare. Remember that the Sons of Horus had to fight there way to join forces with the Emperor's Children, the Wold Eaters were attacked almost as soon as they come out of the bunkers.
The Thousand Sons on Prospero had nothing to lose and pushed themselves beyond their limits in an attempt to stop the Wolves. That's why many of them suffered from the fleshchange. Also it didn't start mid-battle the fleshchange had started up again after the destruction of the currupted Eldar titans. The Thousand Sons, used more power then was safe and maintained control. Then when they where faced with the Wolves. They took it a little further and one fell to the change. Killed by Russ and was most likely the desiding factor leading to the councel of Nikkia.
If anything when you look at the battle for Prospero. The Thousand Sons put up a much better fight then the loyal marines at Istvaan and under simular conditions. The only difference however is the Thousand Sons were pushed back on all fronts except for Ahriman's defences and at Istvaan the Loyals held all fronts.
Phael Toron Captian of the 7th Fellowship at the battle for Prospero wrote:The perimeter of the Thousand Sons was holding, but that it would soon break was beyond question. No force in the galaxy could resist so furious an attack, so lethal a drive and a foe so utterly without mercy: No force but the Thousand Sons with the power of the Great Ocean at their command.
And we know that the Thousand Son's line did break and that their powers didn't help in the end. And we also know that the Angron was repelled multiple times on Istvaan. This is not a comparison between Russ and Angron but their methods.
Angron's rage made him a poor general when compared to the likes of Russ. Even if to outsiders they are seen as one and the same. Sanguinious, muses on this in Fear to Tread. The sad part is that Angron will never be able to rise above this like Russ. Which makes the Wolrd Eaters a weapon to destoy bodies but unable to truely tackle the targets that need an executioner. And why Russ gets the "Dirty jobs".
Not only is Istvaan a good example. There is also the Iron Citadel in False Gods. As it demonstraights Angron's inability to set his rage aside and focus on the task at hand. Another example is given in The Butcher's Nails in that Angron cares only about fighting Logar, even at the cost of his mission. Its only Kharn and the Eldar attack that changes his mind.
Which means that Angron cannot have been given the Emperor's rage, fury, wrath or any of those characteristics. Because he does not demonstraight the calulatedness of the Emperor. The one thing that every Primarch has is the ability to see the bigger picture, except Angron. Like I said his psyche is so damaged that we can't really judge his "Gift".
Just as I said I could see him having the Emperor's determination. I could also see him having the Emperor's sence of Honor. But either one has been twisted so much by his rage that they are almost unreconizable.
What part of rage is calculation? I think you're talking about two separate aspects of the Emperor's personality.
As I mentioned, Angron may very well see the "biggest picture" possible -- namely, that all the Primarchs, even in the midst of the Heresy, are slaves to larger forces. That's a pciture more calculating Primarchs like Guilliman and especially Jonson seem to have a lot of trouble seeing.
Also please stop trying to show how Angron is not as good as Russ at being Russ. Who cares?
Manchu wrote: What part of rage is calculation? I think you're talking about two separate aspects of the Emperor's personality.
As I mentioned, Angron may very well see the "biggest picture" possible -- namely, that all the Primarchs, even in the midst of the Heresy, are slaves to larger forces. That's a pciture more calculating Primarchs like Guilliman and especially Jonson seem to have a lot of trouble seeing.
Also please stop trying to show how Angron is not as good as Russ at being Russ. Who cares?
I'm not trying to show that Angron is not as good at being Russ as Russ is. I'm taking the Primarch who's main characteristic is closest to how Angron acts. That Primarch just happens to be Leman Russ. Sanguinious', own views on how simular their wars are fought support that line of thinking.
Prospero Burns, does a good job of showing that at least some of how the Space Wolves act is in fact an act. They hide their "Calculatedness" behind the ferocity of their attacks, behavior and general combat doctrine. This is supported by Guilliman in Rule of Engagment by naming Russ one of the dauntless few and not the Khan (to unpredictable). Even though the White Scars show their own "Calculatedness" in Little Horus.
That calculatedness is missing with the World Eaters and Angron. Instead they reveal in their ability to beat their heads against a problem until something gives. To their credit it's usually the problem that breaks first.
That should not be used as a statement to lower the World Eaters. Just a statement that demonstraights their leadership's damaged psyche. Whereas every other Legion would seek to maximise its strengths Angron just seems to throw his Legion at the target. In an attempt to engage them to give the butcher's nails what they want.
Angron's, combat doctrine is never going to be how the authors add dimentions to him. I hope ADB puts a lot of focus into what's going on in Angrons mind when he is in full bezerker fury. It is in those dreams that we might be able to see what Angron might have been before becoming a slave to his rage. Playing up his desire for freedom and showing how low the implants have dragged him.
Manchu wrote: What part of rage is calculation? I think you're talking about two separate aspects of the Emperor's personality.
As I mentioned, Angron may very well see the "biggest picture" possible -- namely, that all the Primarchs, even in the midst of the Heresy, are slaves to larger forces. That's a pciture more calculating Primarchs like Guilliman and especially Jonson seem to have a lot of trouble seeing.
Also please stop trying to show how Angron is not as good as Russ at being Russ. Who cares?
I'm not trying to show that Angron is not as good at being Russ as Russ is. I'm taking the Primarch who's main characteristic is closest to how Angron acts. That Primarch just happens to be Leman Russ. Sanguinious', own views on how simular their wars are fought support that line of thinking.
Prospero Burns, does a good job of showing that at least some of how the Space Wolves act is in fact an act. They hide their "Calculatedness" behind the ferocity of their attacks, behavior and general combat doctrine. This is supported by Guilliman in Rule of Engagment by naming Russ one of the dauntless few and not the Khan (to unpredictable). Even though the White Scars show their own "Calculatedness" in Little Horus.
That calculatedness is missing with the World Eaters and Angron. Instead they reveal in their ability to beat their heads against a problem until something gives. To their credit it's usually the problem that breaks first.
That should not be used as a statement to lower the World Eaters. Just a statement that demonstraights their leadership's damaged psyche. Whereas every other Legion would seek to maximise its strengths Angron just seems to throw his Legion at the target. In an attempt to engage them to give the butcher's nails what they want.
Angron's, combat doctrine is never going to be how the authors add dimentions to him. I hope ADB puts a lot of focus into what's going on in Angrons mind when he is in full bezerker fury. It is in those dreams that we might be able to see what Angron might have been before becoming a slave to his rage. Playing up his desire for freedom and showing how low the implants have dragged him.
+1
You took words from my mouth...
And here is what future Horus/Amon tells Hawser
Spoiler:
‘I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
So Horus knew very well what is barbarian facade unlike WE (who were always WE)....
I'm taking the Primarch who's main characteristic is closest to how Angron acts. That Primarch just happens to be Russ.
No, the two are actually nothing alike except in a very, very superficial sense--i.e., they're both wrongly stereotyped as unthinking brutes. Russ is much more like his sly brothers than they would care to imagine. Angron is not. He has no taste for deceit. Your argument boils down to using Russ as the measure of Angron and that doesn't show an understanding of either character.
The new Heresy forgeworld supplement can shed some light on this i think.
The Warhounds are portrayed as brutal and relentless. They glory in combat and are dedicated to the task. They were not especially savage or barbaric however, merely ruthless.
Once united with Angron their martial culture is heightened, their Terran traditions and discipline slowly forgotten. There's a real emphasis on close quarters combat as a test of martial ability and honour. Their training becomes live fire exercises and recruitment casualties soar.
Their purpose is to destroy, more so than any other legion. The Ultramarines for example will help build the worlds they conquer, they will add to them and improve them. The Luna Wolves will selectively target a planets leadership and key defences, leaving the rest of the populace untouched. The World Eaters however will destroy. They will kill everything on the planet, topple every city.
You send in the world eaters when you want to send a message, when you want something destroyed utterly. Systems would capitulate at the news of their coming. You use the world eaters to obliterate a target, to cleanse planets that can not be brought into the Imperium. that's their role.
In regards to Angron there's this blog post from the author of After Desh'ea, i feel it neatly illustrates the tragedy of Angron and the Butcher's Nails. (emphasis mine)
So that’s some of what was at work when I started thinking about an Angron story. Because I remember a definite moment when I was reeling off some Heresy places and names to myself, thought of Angron’s name, and shrugged him off with a little half-smirk thinking “heh, yeah, one-note screaming psycho-zerker, nothing there”. And then I caught myself, and made myself go back and take another look at him, because as I’ve just been saying, that’s not true, is it? It’s never true. And in fact the second thought that I had was that the very fact of my initial reacion mean that bringing Angron to life was going to be that much more intriguing a challenge, and that much more of a satisfying achievement.
There were two thoughts that became focal points for my picture of Angron. One was the idea of heroism The idea of the “hero” as someone not only mighty but virtuous, a good person and role model, is actually a relatively modern way of thinking. People with more literary history than I can tell you when exactly the idea of virtue started being explicitly added in, but the point is that originally heroes were people who simply did mighty deeds, not necessarily good ones. A lot of modern tellings of Hercules talk about his fighting monsters and going on quests, but those tellings seem a little lighter on the bit where a lot of that monster-fighting was in penance for him massacring his wife and children in a drunken rage. I’ve always thought the best approach for chronicling the Emperor and his Primarchs was to make them heroic in that old, darker sense: these were beings of statures far beyond your or I, capable of world-building or world-shattering feats, beings whose virtues carried them to pinnacles far above normal humanity… and whose flaws ran devastatingly, inhumanly deep. When I was thinking about how he was going to react to being taken away from his army of escapees just before their last stand, the thought crystallised that Angron’s rage at this would be monstrous, but so would his grief, and recasting that whole story with Angron in mourning rather than in fury immediately opened up whole new ways for him to behave. Graham McNeill is a surveyor, he’ll tell you: when you’ve got that second observation point, that’s when you can start triangulating, get a proper fix on what you want to map.
It was actually correspondence with Graham that brought the second idea properly into focus, and that was the effect that the implants must have had on him. (Angron, not Graham.) This was something I’d initially speculated on on the Black Library forums, and I think it’s where Angron’s true tragedy lies. Angron had his brain re-engineered to both streamline his mind and soul into the same sorts of killing machines that his body already was; I suspect it was also to try and make him controllable, since even a young Primarch must have been a frightening prospect to try and keep prisoner by conventional means. The fact that his captors could construct such things in the first place points to a highly sophisticated techological base – this clearly wasn’t a world that reverted to utter savagery during the long galactic strife. But that machinery, sophisticated as it was, had been put not into a human but into a Primarch. Think of that for a minute: a Primarch. A creation so powerful and complex, drawing so deeply on so many strands of human knowledge, so intertwined with the Emperor’s own intellectual brilliance and creative drives, that probably only He Himself fully understood how they had been made and how they worked. Think of Rogal Dorn confessing that thinking on his own nature even frightens him, since he knows there is simply no precedent in human history for what he is. Think of the Luna Wolves’ apothecaries treating the wounded Horus and saying that even with all their experience with the augmented physiology of the Astartes, they’re still in the dark when they work on a Primarch, since he’s been built at a level so far above them.
Now think about how Angron’s neural implants, designed to fit a normal human brain by a world that had never heard of Astartes or Primarchs, must have fitted him. I don’t care how good they were at psychosurgery (and I think they were pretty damned good), those implants are still going to work about as well as bodging a couple of old pram wheels onto a Formula 1 racer. Gone is any chance of a clean cut to take away the higher brain functions not devoted to combat: that Primarch-mind is going to want to grow and push outward, attain mastery, break out of its chains. To switch metaphors, it’s like trying to cram a lion into a cat-carrier: it’s not just not going to fit, it’s going to fight.
It’s a tribute to the psychosurgeons’ skill that they got as good a result as they did: implants that did more or less what they were supposed to and a Primarch who could still function. But long before the Emperor got anywhere near him those surgeons tore away any chance of Angron had of becoming what his brothers became. Let’s say it again, he was a Primarch. He had a mind built to be a peerless warrior, a brilliant commander, a consummate diplomat, a great lawmaker, a wise scholar, a magnificent artist, a magnificant scientist. Pick the Primarch whom you most admire in the sense of the noble hero, someone to admire and follow: the steadfast and princely Dorn, bold and fiery Russ, thoughtful Guilliman, patient and methodical Perturabo, glorious Fulgrim, mighty Horus. This is the company Angron was built to keep, and if those surgeons had never entered his skull that’s the manner of being that he would have been.
That must have been hell. To live with this constant, nagging knowledge of your own ripped-away potential, to feel this great intellect of yours ready to seize on new knowledge and experience, to feel your own abilities grow by leaps and bounds in ways your conscious mind has to struggle to keep up with… and then to feel it all fall to pieces as your implants send another blast of sizzling rage through your thoughts. To grasp strategy, leadership, everything, so quickly and intuitively, and then to have the insight slip through your fingers at the last moment because the choke-chain on your thoughts is dragging you back, not letting you think or learn. Following even the simplest train of thought through to its conclusion requires every scrap of your formidable willpower, simply to avoid veering off into blind rage. Even the boundaries between thought, action and memory are blurred.
(That point about thought and action turned into a big part of the portrayal, actually. I wanted to really emphasise Angron’s physicality: apart from actual battle scenes most of the depictions of the Primarchs I recalled from the books tended to be static, with them seated imperiously on thrones or looming over some hapless human. A good contrast seemed to be to have Angron almost constantly on the move, prowling about the room, circling Kharn, recalling his memories as much with physical actions as with words. I was trying for an ominous, animalistic air and it was cool to have several readers respond to that.)
The more thought I put into how I was going to shine a light into this story, the more I got fixated on that very first introduction of Angron to the Imperium, his abduction from his homeworld and his introduction to the XII Astartes. So much seemed to stem from that moment. So much about him was described as harking back to his brutal gladiatorial background, so the moment where that collided with his ascension to one of the greatest military elites the galaxy has ever seen – the Primarchs of the Human Imperium – had to have story potential. It’s also remarked in the early Heresy novels that Kharn, whom we meet already having taken the post of Angron’s equerry, is the only one who can calm the Primarch’s mountainous rages – that hinted at some sort of special bond between them, and I wondered how that had been forged. That started to bring together some interesting elements: the idea that although Angron might conceive a hatred for the Emperor, that his Astartes might earn his respect as warriors, and that their own loyalty to the Emperor might bring about second thoughts. It’s something Angron’s thoughts turn to in the story: if Kharn is a warrior of such puissance and will, and if the Emperor has commanded such loyalty from Kharn that he will stand unresisting and allow himself to be ripped to pieces rather than breach an order, then perhaps this Emperor might have might that Angron has not yet realised?
rems01 wrote: The new Heresy forgeworld supplement can shed some light on this i think.
The Warhounds are portrayed as brutal and relentless. They glory in combat and are dedicated to the task. They were not especially savage or barbaric however, merely ruthless.
It doesn't seem like you read the FW book very carefully ...
Before Angron is found, the War Hounds were notorious enough to earn this comment from a grizzled Imperial commander: "it remains my fervent hope ... that I never again see such inhuman butchery ..." They were thought of this way from their founding: "it is apparent from such records that survive that the XIIth were from the outset deemed a highly aggressive force, its warriors hot-blooded and savage."
I'm taking the Primarch who's main characteristic is closest to how Angron acts. That Primarch just happens to be Russ.
No, the two are actually nothing alike except in a very, very superficial sense--i.e., they're both wrongly stereotyped as unthinking brutes. Russ is much more like his sly brothers than they would care to imagine. Angron is not. He has no taste for deceit. Your argument boils down to using Russ as the measure of Angron and that doesn't show an understanding of either character.
I think they are more alike then you are giving them credit:
Custodian Amon in Prospero Burns wrote:The Wolf King believes that he doesn't win battles by hidding secrets from his enemies. He believes he wins them by showing his enemies exaclty what they're up against and how miserably ther're going to lose.
The difference comes into play when you look at their mental state. Russ despite his image is fully in control and Angron is not.
Basically this:
I'm guessing ADB's blog??? wrote:That must have been hell. To live with this constant, nagging knowledge of your own ripped-away potential, to feel this great intellect of yours ready to seize on new knowledge and experience, to feel your own abilities grow by leaps and bounds in ways your conscious mind has to struggle to keep up with… and then to feel it all fall to pieces as your implants send another blast of sizzling rage through your thoughts. To grasp strategy, leadership, everything, so quickly and intuitively, and then to have the insight slip through your fingers at the last moment because the choke-chain on your thoughts is dragging you back, not letting you think or learn. Following even the simplest train of thought through to its conclusion requires every scrap of your formidable willpower, simply to avoid veering off into blind rage. Even the boundaries between thought, action and memory are blurred.
And what better way to show this then holding up the actions of two simular Primarchs. I realise that you don't like the comparison to Russ but what other Primarch can you use as potentially a none butcher's nailed Angron mental measuring stick. *** At least untill we get more insite into what's really going through Angron's mind.***
Manchu wrote: Before Angron is found, the War Hounds were notorious enough to earn this comment from a grizzled Imperial commander: "it remains my fervent hope ... that I never again see such inhuman butchery ..."
Minus the part about "Before Angron" and you have a scene almost copied right out of Prospero Burns talking about the Space Wolves instead.
Pilau Rice wrote: It's not like the Emperor didn't try to keep Angron in check, but there is only so much you can do when you are at one side of space and your psychotic son the other. It eventually would have gotten to the stage of Curze where the Emperor would have had no choice but to act, maybe doing the same and dispatching the assassins.
According to Bligh, the Emperor reprimanded Angron by (1) forbidding his apothecaries to conduct the psycho-surgery that makes bezerkers and (2) sending him far from the civilized Imperium. Bligh basically says that Angron ignored the Emperor's command and delighted in his exile, which only further freed him from restraint. Just looking at this, one has to wonder how deeply committed the Emperor was to curbing Angron. It's a lot like Magnus, where the Emperor says "don't do X" and then let's you go about your merry way when you are completely and utterly known for doing X and in fact the Emperor even made you for the purpose of doing X. Unless the Emperor is a flat-out moron, it seems to me he must have been fomenting the Heresy himself.
He certainly puts too much faith that his words will hold sway with his sons.
Pilau Rice wrote: If he killed a Son every time one of them did bad he wouldn't have many left and I can't imagine those that were left would have stuck around very long lest they became another empty plinth in the Emperors Palace.
I would like to see an Iron Hands HH novel, where the Emperor chastises Ferrus (or Vulkan or even Dorn) and Ferrus (or whoever) actually takes it to heart (unlike Angron, Magnus, and Lorgar). Actually, does something like that already exist?
Not sure if you are actually asking here or not Manchu.
I think Lorgar and Magnus did take it to heart, but thought they knew better than the Emperor. Angron possibly did as well, and that's probably why he kept doing what he did. I've always believed that with Angron it has always been the case of him sticking two fingers up at the Emperor in everything he does.
Manchu wrote: The fluff is very, very good -- you can tell Bligh has spent a lot of time with Index Astartes.
This is good news and I am glad that someone has gone with the excellence of the Index Astartes articles.
Pilau Rice wrote: There seems to be a couple of things that the Emperor wasn't happy about and definitely censored Angron for something, the Ghenna Scouring according to the IA article.
Which reminds me, I also wanted to respond to this. According to Bligh (again, he's read his IA), it was in the wake of the Ghenna Scouring that the Emperor called Angron in, forbade psycho-surgery, and sent him off. What do you mean by "a couple of things" though?
Well, Ghenna and to stop using the nails. But I can't believe they would be the only dislike the Emperor would have about his Son and the World Eaters, like Curze, Mortarion, Alpharius, his brothers had expressed their concerns to the Emperor. If the Heresy had not had broken out then Ariggata would have been another possible reason for censure.
Zweischneid wrote: I think it would be prudent to just keep in mind that things were developed back-to-front.
First, they had Khorne Berzerkers for Chaos Space Marines. They were the "angry" assault-type in the mix.
Than the build an evil Space Marines legions around it, the World Eaters, which is made up of those. And they made its leader a particularly angry Daemon Prince called Angron.
Than they figured that, if they're a Traitor Legion now, they must've been a loyalist legion once.
Than the made them angry pre-heresy, both Legion and Primarch, to tell a credible story why the went Khorne.
Than they started adding details, first in "present day 40K", about implants and all.
Than they started to weave those details in backwards through the Legions history and up to the Primarch background
I think you need to have a read of Slaves to Darkness. This is the first place anything was really written down about Chaos, and it already has the World Eaters as a Founding Legion, already psycho before their fall, already had psycho-surgery, etc...
Just Dave wrote: [On the idea of what Horus offered him:] "Freedom from holding back. Freedom from restrain. Freedom from guilt and orders. But freedom was not without its drawbacks. The primarchs and their warriors needed strucutre, needed purpose to focus their martial instincts. Without the guiding hand, once provided by the Emperor, now manipulated by Horus, the Legions were nothing more than a bolter without an eye to aim it."[/i]
I like this idea, mainly because I was already thinking along those lines due to Angron seeming at least partially inspired by Spartacus...
If you go with the idea that Angron is about one aspect of the Emperor, then either Vengeance or a desire to be free seem the obvious winners.
‘I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
So Horus knew very well what is barbarian facade unlike WE (who were always WE)....
Yes, this quote makes it very clear that Horus is more worried about the SW than the WE. You can draw 1 of 2 conclusions from this:
1. Horus' concern is due to the SW being so much better than WE at killing other legions.
2. Horus isn't concerned about the WEbecause they are already on his side.
Manchu wrote: Angron alone of the Primarchs was enslaved.
What?! Many Primarchs were slaves.
Corax, Horus, Angron, Mortarion (upon living with the humans). I'm sure there are others I can't think of at the moment. Most Primarchs lead a rebellion to retake their adopted world.
Angron was also the only one enslaved in a sense as he's the Primarch who was forced into his position as lord of the World Eaters against his will. Even nutters like Curze went willingly.
IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.
Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.
If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.
However I like to believe that Angron represents the Emperor's Determiniation.
I second that, putting aside all the berserker fury/psychopathic bloodletting characteristics that we see in angron, we would also see a individual determined to finish whatever he set out to do, although those goals maybe deluded by the butchers nails by the time the thought comes to his mind...
The Dark Apostle wrote: IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.
Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.
If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.
But the emperor sent Russ. Do you understand me?
This is faulty. Just look at the simularities between Istvaan III and Prospero and the difference in outcome.
If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards. It's unlikely seeing the results of the traitor World Eaters vs the Emperor's Children that the Wolrd Eaters would survive any true Legion Vs Legion fight. Except when they have someone else to do the heavy lifting. This is even supported in False Gods when Kharn basically whines about how the World Eaters are not good at sieges to Horus.
When you have a World that needs everyone killed you send Angron but when that enemy can match the World Eaters as warriors. You send Russ.
Stonerhino wrote: If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards.
Nonsense. The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.
The Space Wolves were getting the holy gak kicked out of them when the Thousand Sons actually managed to mount a proper resistance, and the element of surprise was gone.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Space Wolves were getting the holy gak kicked out of them when the Thousand Sons actually managed to mount a proper resistance, and the element of surprise was gone.
Yeap,but they were on God mode - when it wear off, easy kill, thats why the whole book they were running to Magnus' pyramid...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.
I have to agree, basically. At the same time, who can doubt the World Eaters would have taken heavier casualties than the Space Wolves. But that's just the way they are and no special testament to the Thousand Sons.
The Dark Apostle wrote: IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.
Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.
If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.
But the emperor sent Russ. Do you understand me?
This is faulty. Just look at the simularities between Istvaan III and Prospero and the difference in outcome.
If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards. It's unlikely seeing the results of the traitor World Eaters vs the Emperor's Children that the Wolrd Eaters would survive any true Legion Vs Legion fight. Except when they have someone else to do the heavy lifting. This is even supported in False Gods when Kharn basically whines about how the World Eaters are not good at sieges to Horus.
When you have a World that needs everyone killed you send Angron but when that enemy can match the World Eaters as warriors. You send Russ.
Agree,WE go to much beserk,and we don't know how much Angron is Psy resistant....For example use Guiliman - three psykic hits from Kor and he is down,while Magnus is 10x more powerful...
Manchu wrote: I have to agree, basically. At the same time, who can doubt the World Eaters would have taken heavier casualties than the Space Wolves. But that's just the way they are and no special testament to the Thousand Sons.
World Eaters would've taken heavier casualties for sure, but they have the numbers to support those casualties, I believe. The recent Horus Heresy: Betrayal book places the Legion at about 150,000 strong, which is apparently on the 'high end' of Legion numbers (and boy did the World Eaters needed it). If I recall, the Thousand Sons werent a particularly large Legion, and neither were the Space Wolves (afaik, if someone does know otherwise, please tell me so). But on top of that, the Wolves were also supported by the Custodes and the Silent Sisterhood. So while the Thousand Sons might have used the full scope of their powers against the World Eaters, it probably would've been akin to fighting a force of nature, a literal rolling tide of froth-mad berserkers who wouldnt stop until Tizca was razed to the ground. Or atleast, that's how I view Angron and his Legion.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Thousand Sons were said to be 10,000 strong in A Thousand Sons.
Hmm.. way smaller than I thought, but it's been a while since I read Thousand Sons. The Wolves were of comparable strength werent they? So if the Eaters had thrown the entire might of their Legion, the TSons would've been outnumbered significantly. Wonder how much their psyker ability could bridge the gap?
Void__Dragon wrote: I'd like to imagine Magnus wouldn't have let his Legion been caught as unprepared were it the fething World Eaters on their way.
He probably would've. He accepted what was going to happen. Possibly he would have been motivated to act sooner, but who knows how that would have turned out.
Before and including A Thousand Sons the average legion size was still considered to be the old 10,000. The books coming after that have the new average size of 100,000 thousand.
The Thousand Son's of course would have been less than that average no. always being described as a small legion.
Ronin wrote: The recent Horus Heresy: Betrayal book places the Legion at about 150,000 strong, which is apparently on the 'high end' of Legion numbers (and boy did the World Eaters needed it).
The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.
Stonerhino wrote: If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards.
Nonsense. The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.
The Thousand Sons lost because it was a forgone conclusion. All the Thousand Sons had control over was how much damage they did on the way down.
The problem that the World Eaters would have is that they would be lacking the Space Wolves tactics. It stated over and over in Prospero Burns that the idea of "If the Space Wolves were really like their image then they would all already be dead". And to face a foe as skilled as the Thousand Sons you would be desperately in need of any advantage you could get. Simply charging head long into the Thousand Sons lines would be folly and end in death. Its even stated in A Thousand Sons when they counter attack that the Space Wolves used it to overstretch their lines attacking on the edges of the push. Which resulted in the Thousand Sons falling back again.
Evident by their being repeatily repelled at Istvaan III the World Eaters simply lacked the Space Wolves understanding and use of tactics. Which would have resulted in unsustainable losses by the World Eaters. And that's not even considering Russ' anti-psyker abilities nor the tactical deployment of the Sisters of Silence. And considering that Magnus muses on the fact that there are not enough null maidens to take Tisca. Their deployment would be paramount and a limited commodity.
Remeber that it was the unleashing of the Wulfen that finally broke the Thousand Sons' line at the pyramid of Photep. Something that the World Eaters lacked. Meaning that they would have to grind their forces against the defences there resulting in more losses. And Angron would never have backed down, just grinding his Legion against an elite fighting force that was the match for his warriors.
Prospero, was a fight that the World Eaters would have never walked away from. Limped maybe but it would be a long while before they were anywhere near fighting strength again.
Edit: I do agree that it would have been the same with most other Legions. If they would agree to attack another Legion prior to the Heresy kicking off.
Still, tone of mad beserkers charging on lightning bolts sounds much more interesting then tactical deployment and swift killing..and think on grand finale - both legions dead while Magnus tries to fry Angrons butchers nails...
on the other hand maybe Magnus can fry every WE butchers nails...hm
and even in Hawser vision, future Horus/Demon said that the SW represent only genuine miltary threat to him, while TS are only legion who can hurt him...so that puts different picture on SW as a beast/savages/killers...
Manchu wrote: The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.
I think that if Angron had been on Prospero, he would've just fell to Khorne somewhat faster, agreeing to serve him in exchange for protection against the sorcery of the Sons. Then Magnus would've gone to Tzeentch, and the end result would've been that the Wolves were on Terra for the final battle, since they didn't have any book burning to do.
If Angron was swearing fealty to the Blood God on Prospero as Magnus was do the same regarding Tzeentch, I bet the two Warp Gods would have had trouble setting aside their differences. That means two traitor legions down and Leman on Terra. Bad news for Horus ...
Manchu wrote: If Angron was swearing fealty to the Blood God on Prospero as Magnus was do the same regarding Tzeentch, I bet the two Warp Gods would have had trouble setting aside their differences. That means two traitor legions down and Leman on Terra. Bad news for Horus ...
Perhaps, but the gods allied to give Horus power, and seem to have wanted the Emperor dead pretty badly. They might have been willing to co-operate for a while before getting back to killing each other. Though I would agree that the Space Wolves being present would have made the 'kill the Emperor' initiative a lot harder.
Manchu wrote: The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.
The WB's were 100,000 at the start of the Heresy, they've only shrunk since then. My guess is only the Black Legion surpasses the 100,000 mark anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.
Honestly, I think there was a better chance of Angron defecting and joining Magnus in that scenario. He always hated the Emperor for taking him away from his gladiator brothers.
Harriticus wrote: Honestly, I think there was a better chance of Angron defecting and joining Magnus in that scenario. He always hated the Emperor for taking him away from his gladiator brothers.
But unlike Angron, Magnus did not hate the Emperor.
Manchu wrote: The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.
The WB's were 100,000 at the start of the Heresy, they've only shrunk since then. My guess is only the Black Legion surpasses the 100,000 mark anymore.
Pretty sure I recall a Dan Abnett interview for Know No Fear that said they were the 2nd largest at at least 150,000.
Manchu wrote: The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.
The WB's were 100,000 at the start of the Heresy, they've only shrunk since then. My guess is only the Black Legion surpasses the 100,000 mark anymore.
Pretty sure I recall a Dan Abnett interview for Know No Fear that said they were the 2nd largest at at least 150,000.
120,000 was the final number if i remember rightly there was a tread a while ago about the heresy legion numbers
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