So now that the Emperor has likely ascended to become the God-Emperor in the warp with the trillions of screaming souls professing his name in the real realms, what of the others who carry religious followings? IE, Leman Russ, Ruboute Guilleman, Sanguinius, Sebastian Thor? They are all hailed as saviors to the Imperium and have massive followings of their own. After nearly 10,000 years of worship ,~5k for Sebastian, would they have enough pyschic potential to become demi-gods or outright gods themselves? Is there a new pantheon of gods arising from the martyrs of the Imperium, with enough strength to fight the four Gods of Chaos and lead the Imperium to conquer the galaxy?

Just a thought.

This is an interesting topic, but one that relies heavily on personal interpretation and preferences.

For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing. The Emperor was already mighty without the worship of the people - in fact, he never wanted to be worshipped in the first place, and his Space Marines continue to this day to regard him as a great man, but still a normal human being. Worship of the Emperor only really cropped up bigtime after he died, with lots of people all over the galaxy suddenly claiming to have seen visions. Now, are those visions the Emperor's psychic touch, did the Emperor truly ascend to become the one true god of the entire setting, or were they just imagining things? Nobody knows for sure.

I do not think there is a connection between religious worship and psychic potential, though. In fact, the Ecclesiarchy would never condone a "witch" to be named and worshipped as a Saint in the first place - although it is certainly interesting how some very few people such as Saint Sebastian or Saint Joachim have apparently shown the ability to conjure or calm warp storms as they wish. Then again, is that really the truth, or was it the Emperor's intervention? Or the Inquisition secretly working in the background with arcane technology? Or perhaps even the Ruinous Powers playing their great game?

 Lynata wrote:
For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing.

C'tan.

Anyway, the Emperor's psychic presence in the Warp was powerful enough to combat the Chaos Gods pre-heresy, he has always been more or less "godly".

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
For example, I do not believe that any such thing as divinity or godhood exists in the setting. Everything we see is just Warp Magiks, be it the Chaos "Gods" or the Emperor's doing.

C'tan.

Anyway, the Emperor's psychic presence in the Warp was powerful enough to combat the Chaos Gods pre-heresy, he has always been more or less "godly".

Well C'tan were basically collections of stardust formed after the Big Bang...

Every "divine" thing in 40k has a "scientific" explanation. However the factor remains: does this make them any less divine. The Chaos Gods are Gods in every sense except we know where they came from (though nobody in the setting does).

Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God. Low and behold, posthumously he very well may be the 5th - and his greatest followers may make up lesser deities as well. So, what say you?

 ENOZONE wrote:
Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God. Low and behold, posthumously he very well may be the 5th - and his greatest followers may make up lesser deities as well. So, what say you?

If he does, he'll be the God of Order, the anti-Chaos god. The Dark Gods already hated him before he ascended to the Golden Throne, and even when mortally wounded he still flayed a primarch infused with immense power form all 4 Chaos Gods. If he went fully into the warp, he would castrate the chaos gods in his sleep, no challenge.

Perhaps. Living saints are also infused by his power, but they cannot yet mortally harm the 4 great powers so it seems that there is somewhat of an even playing field.

My question remains largely unanswered though, are the other great martyrs of the Imperium becoming Gods empowered by the Imperium's worship towards them - such as how the God-Emperor seems to be manifesting, or is the Emperor the one true God of humanity?

ENOZONE wrote:Well I'm banking on the idea that the Chaos Gods were known by the Emperor to be created by thoughts and emotions from mankind. When focused, they manifested into the four great powers, which is exactly why the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped - he didn't want to make a 5th Chaos God.

Ah, the supposed rationale between this "Imperial Truth" propagated by some novels?
Religion is not equal to emotion, though the two are connected. And whilst you can eliminate religion, you cannot eliminate emotion (unless you do it Equilibrium-style), so either the Emperor made a mistake or this whole theory does not hold up to scrutiny. Furthermore: even if worship would create gods, then the people's adoration of the Emperor would have simply resulted in another Emperor being born in the Warp, existing simultaneously with the real one. That's how it works. Slaanesh is not some Eldar pimp king/queen, he/she is a collective gestalt of the Eldar's emotions from that time, and I assume it would work similarly for Imperial worshipers.

The Emperor is as unaffected by the worship of uncounted millions now as he has been by the lack of it during the Great Crusade. I won't dispute the possibility that there may be a connection between Him and His servants - the Ecclesiarchy teaches that the Emperor often acts through His chosen individuals, and one does not need to consider divinity to be a source for such powers when psychic powers are a far more convenient explanation - but at the same time I would not commit to this option. It would explain some supposeldy non-psychic peoples' ability to influence a psychic medium, however.

ENOZONE wrote:Perhaps. Living saints are also infused by his power [...]

Or at least so we are led to assume. There are multiple possible explanations, however. To me it seems much more likely that it is, in fact, the Living Saints that are the product of Imperial emotions during times of exceptional need, rather than a 2nd Emperor - simply because we never see that 2nd Emperor (or in generall all that worship having any effect on the Emperor's role and condition on Terra), and the Living Saints are "the next best thing". They are, in essence, "Mini-Slaaneshes", just Daemons of Order, if you will. Conjured by the collective terror, despair and hope of the Imperial citizenry, brought forth from the Immaterium and possessing one of the faithful close to the focal point of the crisis (and thus right in the midst of the turmoil of emotions).

Two reasons why faith matters:

Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull throne.

Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Your argument for living saints basically confirms the theory of a "God-Emperor and "lesser Gods" that apparently may or may not exist depending on the Imperial Truth, the difference between raw and structured emotion, and the difference between the Emperor and the God-Emperor. So, which is it? And what's the answer to the original question?

I heard that the God-Emperor and the Emperor are infact seperate entities, with the God Emperor actually always existing, but gaining Strengh by the worshiping of the imperium.

ENOZONE wrote:Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Not as per what the Chaos codices tell us. It really is just the emotion - in case of Khorne chiefly rage and bloodlust - that empowers the Ruinous Powers, but just like with the Ecclesiarchy, there exist a myriad of manmade rituals and traditions to worship them like gods. They are not necessary per se (and indeed are not practiced in every single incarnation of a Chaos cult!), they simply embody their nature and are the various worshipers' own way of expressing their adoration. The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

After all, what do you think existed first - the Chaos God inspiring worship - or aimless worship not directed at anyone or anything resulting in the creation of a new god? Given how very different the many local cults are, I would deem it highly improbable that they all just happened to "think-birth" the same deity. If it would truly work that way, we would have many, many more "gods" than currently exist.
On the other hand, this might actually fit to what we have read about the spirits within the Warp fighting each other and potentially even absorbing each other, gaining strength and power as they do. Still, such a theory would be incompatible with what the Eldar have experienced. They did not just start to worship an imaginary Slaanesh before he/she/it actually existed, they simply had a big party and on the next morning the Warp was pregnant.

ENOZONE wrote:Your argument for living saints basically confirms the theory of a "God-Emperor and "lesser Gods" that apparently may or may not exist depending on the Imperial Truth, the difference between raw and structured emotion, and the difference between the Emperor and the God-Emperor. So, which is it? And what's the answer to the original question?

Well, my theory cannot confirm or dismantle anything as it is only a theory in itself. Also, in no way does it depend on actual worship or some sort of practicioned rite. Just like with the creation of Slaanesh, all that is required is a certain kind of emotion hitting a threshold and triggering a reaction from the Warp.

See also the account of a Navigator's experience as he traverses the Immaterium in the 6E rulebook, how he writes about feelings and thoughts taking form and shape.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I heard that the God-Emperor and the Emperor are infact seperate entities, with the God Emperor actually always existing, but gaining Strengh by the worshiping of the imperium.

Yet it is the exact opposite that happens. The Astronomican is growing weaker by the day and entire sectors are lost to the Imperium because the Emperor's light cannot reach them anymore - all the while worship of the God-Emperor has continuously expanded, driven by the mighty Ecclesiarchy and its armies of Missionaries and Preachers bringing the Imperial Cult to ever more worlds.

You still haven't managed to answer the question Lynata. I mean this in a good natured way, but please, make a decision between your many angled argument - it's becoming difficult to sort through your text to understand past the contradictions. (Also, if it seems like a harsh criticism, it's probably because it is - made so because I should have gone to sleep an hour ago.)

For example: The absorption and "think births" of deities may not be mutually exclusive to the birth of Slaanesh or the other Chaos gods. After all, when the Eldar performed enough debauchery against themselves, they birthed Slaanesh, who promptly ate most of their pantheon of Gods. That's not to say the Eldar Gods were the same as Chaos, but obviously it shows that those that inhabit the immaterial are fully capable of consuming each other as the Demons of Chaos are as likely to prey upon each other as they are to prey upon hapless victims of the real world. Look no further for evidence between the rivalries between the Chaos Gods, as worship and emotional attachment grows, it wanes on their rival.

Second: Theories are either supported or not by bodies of evidence. So either it will be dismantled or upheld...

Third: You just contradicted yourself again about the non-existence of "Think-Births" and the Navigator's own words of how mere thoughts are made real in the vast regions of the warp, even if for a fleeting moment. If this is true, then it is completely possible that if enough people think and attach emotion to an idea - it would manifest itself as reality in the warp.

Going back to the living saints idea, the combination of the emotions of Fear, Hope, and anger would not serve to create a demi-god in a time of need because those emotions would only go to feed the Chaos Gods.

You need direction for that theory to truly work, a.k.a., a "think birth".

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that your theory is incomplete.

As you believe:

Only a vast quantity of Emotion creates beings of immense power in the warp.

That leaves many questions so let's amend that theory with part of mine:

Emotion creates directionless beings in the warp, and thought dictates what that being will do.

That explains why deliverance occurs to those who ask for it with prayer in a time of need - not simply hoping against the hope that might be killing them.

So, then it stands that Faith, or directional emotion in the form of prayers, rites, and rituals, is affecting things in the warp - and if the Emperor, and his greatest Martyrs /Saints are being worshiped by hundreds of millions of trillions of people across the galaxy, are they creating Gods of the Imperium?

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

Yeah... wasn't there also a pig? I haven't read any other HH novels twice except Nemesis and Legion.

I truly can't remember and I don't have a physical copy of the book.

 Lynata wrote:

ENOZONE wrote:Offerings are made frequently to the Chaos Gods, in fact they're required to bring about demons, pacts, and demonic lords, therefore, the Chaos Gods require worship, not just emotion, to give them direction.

Not as per what the Chaos codices tell us. It really is just the emotion - in case of Khorne chiefly rage and bloodlust - that empowers the Ruinous Powers, but just like with the Ecclesiarchy, there exist a myriad of manmade rituals and traditions to worship them like gods.

I agree with Lynata here, it's not the act of worship that empowers the Chaos Gods, but the emotion and acts caused by the worship itself that feeds them.

 Lynata wrote:
Furthermore: even if worship would create gods, then the people's adoration of the Emperor would have simply resulted in another Emperor being born in the Warp, existing simultaneously with the real one. That's how it works. Slaanesh is not some Eldar pimp king/queen, he/she is a collective gestalt of the Eldar's emotions from that time, and I assume it would work similarly for Imperial worshipers.

Is that the case though?

The Eldars actions bought the full consciousness of Slaanesh into being, it was there actions that also gave it form in the warp. With the Emperor, he already exists in the warp as well, due to his psychic presence there. This is why I don't believe worshiping the Emperor would create another God, because he already exists. Otherwise there would be a whole plethora of versions of the Emperor in the warp. This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood. This in turn is an argument for him not wanting to become a God, surely he would have advised against being incarcerated in the Golden Throne if he had wanted to become a God.

 Lynata wrote:

After all, what do you think existed first - the Chaos God inspiring worship - or aimless worship not directed at anyone or anything resulting in the creation of a new god? Given how very different the many local cults are, I would deem it highly improbable that they all just happened to "think-birth" the same deity. If it would truly work that way, we would have many, many more "gods" than currently exist.
On the other hand, this might actually fit to what we have read about the spirits within the Warp fighting each other and potentially even absorbing each other, gaining strength and power as they do. Still, such a theory would be incompatible with what the Eldar have experienced. They did not just start to worship an imaginary Slaanesh before he/she/it actually existed, they simply had a big party and on the next morning the Warp was pregnant.

That's interesting.

So early man begins waring with each other > Khorne begins to form > early man labels as war >
Khorne becomes stronger >
Early man recognising the prowess of their enemies invoke the spirits to assist them >
Khorne becomes stronger again >
The tribes put name to a new deity to assist them in war, one worship Uglock the Destroyer the other Marhath the Annihilator, killing and sacrificing in their names increases >
2 Gods form in the warp, the increase in bloodshed feeds Khorne >
The followers of Uglock destroy the tribe of Marhath >
Uglock consumes Marhath >

Advance 100 years say and as the Worship of Khorne becomes the dominant religion of the Blooded, he consumes more and more Gods becoming the strongest a la Slaanesh and the Eldar Gods.

Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.

 DeffDred wrote:

Yeah... wasn't there also a pig? I haven't read any other HH novels twice except Nemesis and Legion.

Yes, it was a heart torn from a virgin who had mated with a swine if I recall.

The Emperor is not a god...he never was. The 'God-Emperor' everyone worships is at best, an illusion that only exists in their heads, or at worst, an usurper and a warp-construct born from the ignorant faith of the misguided masses of Mankind.

ENOZONE wrote:You still haven't managed to answer the question Lynata.

I thought I did - if not, what exactly was your question? In regards to these Imperial Saints, I did point out that the psychic potential of mortal beings is in no way dependent on worship. It's a genetic condition passed on by heritage, and the Ecclesiarchy does not condone Psykers in its ranks. Furthermore, upon death, humans simply cease to exist. Unlike Eldar souls, those of humans are unable to retain their personality (see Codex Eldar) and are reduced to nothing but a blob of tasty energy for various Warp entities to nom on. So even if worship would be able to call forth some sort of Saint (which I still do not believe in), it would not be the same guy that died, but at best something that looks and acts like the people think he/she should.

ENOZONE wrote:I mean this in a good natured way, but please, make a decision between your many angled argument - it's becoming difficult to sort through your text to understand past the contradictions.

Apologies if anything was unclear. I have written about this thesis three times in detail so far, so perhaps I was missing something out of habit just because I already explained it so often. Just keep pointing out things where you feel something is wrong and I shall try to elaborate.

ENOZONE wrote:For example: The absorption and "think births" of deities may not be mutually exclusive to the birth of Slaanesh or the other Chaos gods. After all, when the Eldar performed enough debauchery against themselves, they birthed Slaanesh, who promptly ate most of their pantheon of Gods.

Another theory about the origin of Eldar gods might be that rather than being created by worship, they were the immortal souls of some extraordinarily ancient and powerful Eldar, back when they still did not have to use spirit stones to prevent being eaten by Chaos.

ENOZONE wrote:Second: Theories are either supported or not by bodies of evidence. So either it will be dismantled or upheld...

Sure, theories are (or should be) supported by evidence, but they cannot work as evidence for other theories themselves, and as such never "prove" something.

With 40k, there's also the added caveat that the evidence various theories are based on may itself be contradictory, simply because of a lack of canon and the conflicting nature of different sources. My entire theory about there being no divinity falls apart when I would just incorporate the FFG RPG books into my equation, for example. Of course, those books contradict GW material on a number of other occasions. If you want to read a different interpretation of the topic, however, those books may be of relevance to you. "Blood of Martyrs" in particular contains a lot of stuff on FFG's opinion on how the God-Emperor works.

ENOZONE wrote:Third: You just contradicted yourself again about the non-existence of "Think-Births" and the Navigator's own words of how mere thoughts are made real in the vast regions of the warp, even if for a fleeting moment. If this is true, then it is completely possible that if enough people think and attach emotion to an idea - it would manifest itself as reality in the warp.

It is not a contradiction if you keep in mind that it is a Navigator's own subjective perception of the Immaterium. Valuable insight, which is why I pointed it out as recommended reading, but certainly something where you should keep in mind that things are not what they seem to the characters of the story. "Unpersonal" Codex fluff has explained how the Warp works before, and it was always emotion. Read the entry on Chaos daemons in the very same 6E rulebook, for example.
Thoughts only play into this insofar as they are always connected to some emotion as well.

ENOZONE wrote:Going back to the living saints idea, the combination of the emotions of Fear, Hope, and anger would not serve to create a demi-god in a time of need because those emotions would only go to feed the Chaos Gods.

Fear, maybe. Hope? Why? Going by the Navigator's experiences, the Warp is literally polluted nowadays, flowing over with various "warp spirits" that have come into existence over the millennia. Not all of them are aligned to the Ruinous Powers. It stands to reason that an entity created by emotion will endeavour primarily to keep this emotion growing.

ENOZONE wrote:You need direction for that theory to truly work, a.k.a., a "think birth".

Not at all. In fact, it works much better without direction. Whenever we read about these warp spirits, they do not really seem to act focused or with a specific goal. Rather, they are like animals, acting purely instinctual, depending on the emotion that birthed them.

With the Living Saint, what gives them direction are the memories of the possessed host. After all, from what the GW material tells us, a Living Saint is not some weirdly looking daemon with a strange and alien form. Rather, it takes the form of a perfectly normal human being "ascending". If you take Celestine as the only good example we know anything about, she died and was reborn in her new form and with new powers. We are told it is the same body, and how her resurrection was witnessed by the very Sisters who stood guard over her corpse.

So, one possible explanation (and the one propagated by Ecclesiarchy propaganda) is that the God-Emperor has resurrected her and invested her with some of his divine powers. Since this does not mesh well with the out-of-character background about the Chaos Gods and the Warp, however, my theory is that the emotional turmoil surrounding the events of her death (the crusade and the battle) penetrated some critical threshold (or maybe the Warp was just weak in that place) and resulted in the creation of an aimless entity, which, like some daemons do as well, then possessed the dying Celestine and assimilated her memories.

Kinda far-fetched, I know - yet I feel it sits better with the established fluff about the Warp and the utter absence of "actual" gods and non-psychic divine power in the setting so far.

ENOZONE wrote:As you believe: Only a vast quantity of Emotion creates beings of immense power in the warp. That leaves many questions

Which questions, exactly?

ENOZONE wrote:That explains why deliverance occurs to those who ask for it with prayer in a time of need - not simply hoping against the hope that might be killing them.

Does deliverance occur? It certainly does not seem to be an established standard. People pray to the Emperor because they are devastated and were taught by their culture that it helps, not because it necessarily actually has to result in anything. Just like in real life. Especially in times of need, where even persons of little faith may turn to religion simply because they feel it is better than not being able to do anything about their plight. Prayer gives hope/conviction to the one praying, any other effect is purely theoretical or, at best, coincidence. Else the setting would not be as grimdark, I think.

ENOZONE wrote:So, then it stands that Faith, or directional emotion in the form of prayers, rites, and rituals, is affecting things in the warp - and if the Emperor, and his greatest Martyrs /Saints are being worshiped by hundreds of millions of trillions of people across the galaxy, are they creating Gods of the Imperium?

In a way, this does tie in with my theory about Living Saints, so I would be inclined to agree - as long as it is about emotion rather than religion (even though religion is one source of said emotion). That said, it seems to be exceedingly rare that something like Celestine's resurrection occurs - the Codex tells us that a Living Saint is proclaimed only every few centuries, for example, although much of this process may be muddled by politics. An example in the fluff was a prospective Saint that was in the end executed for connections to the Ruinous Powers. How many Saints have been unjustly burned at the pyres of a zealous Inquisitor? How many sanctioned Saints are actually Chaos Pawns in disguise?

An interesting detail in the 6E timeline would be the mentioning of a number of heroes rising up throughout the Imperium - one in each Segmentum - and performing some important and supposedly miraculous feats before they vanish. This could mean anything, but it is interesting story potential.

Pilau Rice wrote:Is that the case though? The Eldars actions bought the full consciousness of Slaanesh into being, it was there actions that also gave it form in the warp. With the Emperor, he already exists in the warp as well, due to his psychic presence there. This is why I don't believe worshiping the Emperor would create another God, because he already exists. Otherwise there would be a whole plethora of versions of the Emperor in the warp.

That's why I think worship has no effect on him at all, or any other being in the Warp for that matter. It is only during a crisis that the Imperial Cult actually produces that much emotion that a Living Saint may be created. Other times, it simply is not enough, perhaps because most Imperial citizens only pay lip service to the Creed, at least when they are not compelled to invest more feeling into it. In other words, the Imperium would need more zealots.

Pilau Rice wrote:This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood.

I would not call it godhood but rather a rebirth and return to his old status as he was during the Great Crusade ... but yes, your interpretation is supported by the fluff in the Inquisitor RPG, with certain influential powers in the Imperium actively trying to prevent this event.

Pilau Rice wrote:Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.

Personally, I think my own position would be that today's Khorne has ursurped both Ares and Kali and is now revered as both, just like I have a feeling that Khairne is a tad too close to Khorne's domain to be a coincidence.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yes, it was a heart torn from a virgin who had mated with a swine if I recall.

Kinky.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Chaos Gods draw power from what their worshipers feel as they make the sacrifice.

I should point out that this was explicitly shown in False Gods, the second Horus Heresy novel as written by Graham McNeil.

I forget the specifics, but I recall that for a sort of ritual sacrifice thing, a woman's heart was required, and it had to be cut out by a loved one so that the act of betrayal could draw power from Tzeentch, or something. Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh had similar stips (Okay, well Khorne might have just been RAWR BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD but still).

A Chaos Cultist woman had sex with a diseased pig and her heart was consumed by Eerebus. The sex brought out Slaanesh, the pig Nurgle, the betrayer of killing her Tzeentch, and the consumption of blood Khorne.

Those Davinite Priests were a crazy bunch....Personally my favorite part of all that was how the head Priest constantly talked down to Erebus. "We have been worshiping the dark powers for thousands of years young heretic".

Considering the way the Warp amplifies everything, and the state the Imperium is in now, would a warp god emperor be benificial in any way whatsoever for humanity? I mean, the only other chaos god created by a single race was Slaanesh, and that ate the souls of all the Eldar it could find, as well as creating the Eye. So why would a god created by the xenophobic, witch hunting, superstitious Imperium be any better, even if at its core the Emperor is still there (who was a pretty selfish jerk even before being locked inside a rotting corpse for ten thousand years).

 Harriticus wrote:
A Chaos Cultist woman had sex with a diseased pig and her heart was consumed by Eerebus. The sex brought out Slaanesh, the pig Nurgle, the betrayer of killing her Tzeentch, and the consumption of blood Khorne.

Those Davinite Priests were a crazy bunch....Personally my favorite part of all that was how the head Priest constantly talked down to Erebus. "We have been worshiping the dark powers for thousands of years young heretic".

She was very good at talking gak to Erebus.

"I could flay you inside of your armour with a thought, stfu."

Erebus: ._.

She even considered her own mastery of sorcery superior to Magnus the Red's (Probably incorrectly though, consdering he did eventually break through the wards placed in the temple).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

She even considered her own mastery of sorcery superior to Magnus the Red's (Probably incorrectly though, consdering he did eventually break through the wards placed in the temple).

Arrogant bitch...seeing as Magnus was taught sorcery by Tzeentch and the Emperor.

I have returned rested and ready, so this debate will be much more cordial. I've shortened the wall of text considerably, but still tried to answer as many points that have been raised. I may have missed or neglected a few though, it was a lot to sort through.

1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.

2. Skipping ahead to your thoughts on a Saint's creation further down the page, lets assume that Saint's are not called by worship, but rather emotional distress caused by conflict. What emotion involved in war is not already fueling the Chaos Gods? Hope and ambition belong to Tzeentch, fear and despair belong to Nurgle, hate and vengeance belong to Khorne, compassion, adoration, and desire belong to Slaanesh. If the God-Emperor is being created by an "orderly" emotion, what emotion is that - and what gives it direction against the four Chaos Gods? Furthermore, why would directionless, aimless energy that is not already claimed by a Chaos God be thrust into a corpse to reawaken it if not influenced by the God-Emperor who is somehow not influenced by the thoughts of His followers?

3. The truth then is that emotions alone are not enough to conjure the Chaos Gods, the emotions are tied to thoughts, and thoughts direct the actions of an individual. Without thought, Tzeentch's base emotions, hope and ambition, would simply amass to a great vision of splendor and visions of a glorious future, but the dreams of utopia descending to nightmares and scheming of the beings in the galaxy twisted that primeval emotion into the Fateweaver we know.

So the unanswered questions are thus:

What emotion does the God-Emperor derive his power from the screaming trillions of people that worship him, if it is not the worship itself that is granting his power?

Why would random warp spirits possess the dead over the living? St. Celestine was dead for days before she was risen. It is far easier to inhabit the body of a mortal who has "invited" you, than it is to fully go against nature - which is why it happens so often to those that worship demons. Or at least I'm inferring this as Chaos possession is common, and rarely, if ever, involves resurrection. Also, the warp is jammed to overflow with these spirits, why do Living Saints -especially the most zealous of them all, the SoB's- seldom [never] become possessed while they are alive and more vulnerable to a warp spirit aligned to their emotion? If this was truly the case, where spirits simply jump the bridge into a preferable host's body, GK's, BT's, Priests, and SoB, would be rife with possession even with what defenses they prepare against them. Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done. To my knowledge, few BT's and fewer still GK's have betrayed the Emperor let alone been possessed.

 Lynata wrote:


With the Living Saint, what gives them direction are the memories of the possessed host. After all, from what the GW material tells us, a Living Saint is not some weirdly looking daemon with a strange and alien form. Rather, it takes the form of a perfectly normal human being "ascending".

No, actually you do need direction. A blast of aimless emotion would create a spawn of Chaos as raw warp energy often does to humanity in the form of a magic missile or rolling wave of ethereal wind. So it stands that a specific, yet nameless form of emotion has to be present in the warp to repeatedly "ascend" someone to Sainthood. After all, a Living Saint takes the wings of an Aquila, has an angelic halo, is an anathema to even the greatest of the Dark Gods servants - it embodies the desire of a savior to deliver that which has given the Saint power in the first place, and finally wouldn't dare consume them as any pure warp entity would naturally attempt to. This leads me to a critical linchpin of this argument, these demi-gods or "mini-slaaneshes" as they've been toted, are fully capable of utterly destroying even the greatest servants of the Dark Gods in real space - who have the support of the emotional states of the entire galaxy and perhaps the universe available to them while a Saint can only draw upon its localized influence, which seems impossible without a greater influence empowering them. Also, Saints seem to not be influenced by the size of a population, they can appear anywhere to smite those it's vessel dictates regardless if the Saint is fighting alongside 100 SoB, or in a massive crusade. Likewise, even after they take lethal damage, or are completely annihilated in real space, they are unlike the servants of the Chaos Gods - their forms (and more importantly their memories of their host) are retained as they are banished back into the warp. The question that then arises is how - if human souls are nullified after they die - do Saints retain the body, mind, and spirit of the human they are possessing, even after their vessel's complete destruction? Also, why does that particular Saint return centuries later, completely reformed in it's old body, rather than take up arms in another when it is supposedly an aimless, directionless, feral creature without it's host?

 Lynata wrote:

How many Saints have been unjustly burned at the pyres of a zealous Inquisitor? How many sanctioned Saints are actually Chaos Pawns in disguise?

That so far is the most interesting question for all to ponder. I have no answer.

 Lynata wrote:
I thought I did - if not, what exactly was your question? In regards to these Imperial Saints, I did point out that the psychic potential of mortal beings is in no way dependent on worship. It's a genetic condition passed on by heritage, and the Ecclesiarchy does not condone Psykers in its ranks. Furthermore, upon death, humans simply cease to exist. Unlike Eldar souls, those of humans are unable to retain their personality (see Codex Eldar) and are reduced to nothing but a blob of tasty energy for various Warp entities to nom on. So even if worship would be able to call forth some sort of Saint (which I still do not believe in), it would not be the same guy that died, but at best something that looks and acts like the people think he/she should.

If emotion from living beings, not just psykers, creates things that inhabit the warp, then can emotions directed by religion create a Deity, or even a pantheon of Deities, such as the God-Emperor and his most adored martyrs?

A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were - the only thing that stops them from turning against the Imperium for abandoning those ideals is their duty. Which does not include kneeling before an usurper. We already see this in the Chapter Cults' refusal to worship the Emperor. The Space Wolves in particular would definitely go up in flames in an instant.

ENOZONE wrote:1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.

"If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."
- 4E Codex: Eldar, p14 Spirit Stones

ENOZONE wrote:2. Skipping ahead to your thoughts on a Saint's creation further down the page, lets assume that Saint's are not called by worship, but rather emotional distress caused by conflict. What emotion involved in war is not already fueling the Chaos Gods? Hope and ambition belong to Tzeentch, fear and despair belong to Nurgle, hate and vengeance belong to Khorne, compassion, adoration, and desire belong to Slaanesh. If the God-Emperor is being created by an "orderly" emotion, what emotion is that - and what gives it direction against the four Chaos Gods?

Fear would be a possible option. Courage. Disgust. Depression. Awe. Truth be told, I did not spend much time thinking about which emotion in particular could lend itself best, but there are a few options. It is also possible that it is a certain combination, perhaps with some emotions "shared" with the Ruinous Powers - after all, the Chaos Gods do share some emotions to a certain degree themselves, so why should the force of Order (if we wish to call it that) not tap into this? I know dakka has some posters making theories about the Emperor as the Carrion-God, so perhaps they can add to this discussion.
As to the direction, I would presume it either comes naturally (as it does to the Chaos Gods) like some sort of instinct, or it is a result of the merger with the host and her memory. Just theories, of course.

ENOZONE wrote:Furthermore, why would directionless, aimless energy that is not already claimed by a Chaos God be thrust into a corpse to reawaken it if not influenced by the God-Emperor who is somehow not influenced by the thoughts of His followers?

Well, it is not aimless if it is following instincts - as we are told all Warp entities supposedly do, all depending on what exactly spawned them. Thus,

Note that I am also not categorically disapproving of any connection of the people's worship to the Emperor, I just think that if there is any such connection, it too would be based on emotions fueling something in the Warp (to which the Emperor - being some sort of Mega-Psyker - obviously is connected, especially now with his Astronomican), and that it would not affect his "power level". It could make it easier for him to contact his people, however? Like ... a vision, riding piggyback on the subtle link between the Immaterium and certain individuals with a special kind of connection? Just thinking out loud.

ENOZONE wrote:3. The truth then is that emotions alone are not enough to conjure the Chaos Gods, the emotions are tied to thoughts, and thoughts direct the actions of an individual. Without thought, Tzeentch's base emotions, hope and ambition, would simply amass to a great vision of splendor and visions of a glorious future, but the dreams of utopia descending to nightmares and scheming of the beings in the galaxy twisted that primeval emotion into the Fateweaver we know.

"The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space. It is a random, unstructured dimension of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.
The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one; both are formed of the same Warp energy. As a Chaos God gathers energy it expands, its corresponding influence on the Warp around it broadens and its territory in the Realm of Chaos grows. No two visions of these realms are ever the same basic themes and feelings. As extensions of the gods, the appearances of these domains are formed upon the same emotions that created their masters."
- 5E Codex: Chaos Daemons

I'm sorry, I'm seeing a strong focus on emotions here. Also keep in mind that the Chaos Gods are by far not worshiped as such on many worlds. Quite a lot of cultures would seem to know them under different names (logically, given the limitations of space travel). However, you still are not too far off, although I believe you have it backwards. It is true that emotions are tied to thoughts, but rather than thoughts directing the actions of a Chaos God, it is a Chaos cultist's thoughts that emanate emotion, which in turn fuel the God's existence. Also, you seem confident that a Chaos God would not know what to do without specific directions "transmitted" via thoughts, rather than pure emotion as a drive alone. This is where I disagree. Emotion as a motivator is sufficient for a Chaos God to grow a consciousness of its own. After all, this is how it works in real life as well, does it not? Consciousness is not created by outside influence - it simply pops into existence and then starts to learn, to grow, to adapt. This, I think, may well be how the Chaos powers have "evolved".

However, an interesting bit is that the very same Codex then goes on to tell us this:
"Daemons are beings of a completely different nature to their masters, and are the most numerous creatures in the Warp. A Daemon is 'born' when a Chaos God gives up a little of its power to create a separate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts and purposes together, giving a personality and consciousness that moves within the Warp."

Now, if the God-Emperor has a presence within the Warp, is it possible that he would create his own "Daemons of Order", and instill them with a personality and consciousness befitting his motifs? Are these the Living Saints, perhaps?

ENOZONE wrote:Why would random warp spirits possess the dead over the living? St. Celestine was dead for days before she was risen. It is far easier to inhabit the body of a mortal who has "invited" you, than it is to fully go against nature - which is why it happens so often to those that worship demons. Or at least I'm inferring this as Chaos possession is common, and rarely, if ever, involves resurrection. Also, the warp is jammed to overflow with these spirits, why do Living Saints -especially the most zealous of them all, the SoB's- seldom [never] become possessed while they are alive and more vulnerable to a warp spirit aligned to their emotion?

But Chaos possession is not that common, else it would not require a specific set-up by the Cults that practice it, or the Daemon to negotiate and trick their host into allowing them in.
Keep in mind that the Sisters of Battle in particular are "shielded" against psychic powers due to their willpower, lifestyle and indoctrination, even moreso than the Space Marines. It may be irony that they subconsciously "block out" their own God's Warp-spawned emissaries simply because it's all Psyker stuff. So the best way to possess a Sister would be to take her corpse rather than trying to break her will as she still lives.

ENOZONE wrote:Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done.

If you are referring to Miriael Sabathiel, she was tortured for months until she broke - that's not a "willing" fall...
Also, the amount of "Fallen Sisters" depends entirely on the books you'd read. GW itself has never written about a single one, whereas some outsourced literature seem to suggest this happens every Tuesday. Just a remark concerning the fickle nature of the setting when it comes to such details, however - I have actually adopted Miriael's story into my personal interpretation of the 'verse as well, even though she's not from GW. But I think she is just too badass to be ignored, and a single exception from the rule still preserves the Sisters' theme.

ENOZONE wrote:This leads me to a critical linchpin of this argument, these demi-gods or "mini-slaaneshes" as they've been toted, are fully capable of utterly destroying even the greatest servants of the Dark Gods in real space - who have the support of the emotional states of the entire galaxy and perhaps the universe available to them while a Saint can only draw upon its localized influence, which seems impossible without a greater influence empowering them. Also, Saints seem to not be influenced by the size of a population, they can appear anywhere to smite those it's vessel dictates regardless if the Saint is fighting alongside 100 SoB, or in a massive crusade.

Well, the WH Codex tells us that a Living Saint does not exist for long and will eventually disappear. In my theory, this is based upon the turmoil of emotion slowly falling below the critical threshold (ironically because the Saint is so successful at her work), at which the Living Saint's "link" to the realspace grows weaker and it will eventually be pulled back into the Immaterium.
As for the population, it may be less a question of numbers but rather the zeal of the individuals, or at least a combination of the two. It would certainly explain why Adepta Sororitas heroines seem to be the most likely Imperials to "ascend". Also, to simply appear somewhere may be easier for the Living Saint than to be "born", simply because it already exists. Perhaps the location itself plays a role as well, with the barrier between realspace and Immaterium being weaker allowing not only the Daemons of Chaos an easier passage, but also these "Daemons of Order"?

ENOZONE wrote:Likewise, even after they take lethal damage, or are completely annihilated in real space, they are unlike the servants of the Chaos Gods - their forms (and more importantly their memories of their host) are retained as they are banished back into the warp. The question that then arises is how - if human souls are nullified after they die - do Saints retain the body, mind, and spirit of the human they are possessing, even after their vessel's complete destruction? Also, why does that particular Saint return centuries later, completely reformed in it's old body, rather than take up arms in another when it is supposedly an aimless, directionless, feral creature without it's host?

"The destruction of a Daemon's physical form will banish it from realspace, but will not end its existence. The malefic presence will gradually reform again in the Warp, nursing its hatred and its grudge for long decades or even centuries. If such an entity gets a chance, it will return, its hatred further stoked with a horrible vengeance in mind."
- 6E 40k Rulebook

ENOZONE wrote:If emotion from living beings, not just psykers, creates things that inhabit the warp, then can emotions directed by religion create a Deity, or even a pantheon of Deities, such as the God-Emperor and his most adored martyrs?

The emotion itself, yes, I would say. Religion will ultimately be unable to directly influence whatever the emotions conjured by worship create, but it can be used to steer things into a certain direction, if you get my drift. Just like the many Pleasure Cults amongst the Eldar eventually resulted in the birth of Slaanesh.

This is an interesting exchange, by the way. Our interpretations seem to be quite different on a number of sub-topics, but it's a fun exchange.

Tadashi wrote:A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were

No, I'm fairly sure they do not "remember". They are being told, just like everyone else. Just that their Chaplains tell them a different story than what the Ecclesiarchy Preacher tells his flock.
Anyways, I'd say the Marines' reaction would depend simply on one thing: Does this Emperor visually appear to be the guy that sat on the Golden Throne? If yes, it's him. If there is still a corpse on the Golden Throne (and the Space Marines are told of it), then I would assume they'd be way more sceptical. As would be a whole other people in the Imperium, including the Inquisition. One does not just appear out of nowhere and claim to be Him-on-Earth.
That said, if the guy actually manages to turn an important battle around or otherwise be able to display miraculous abilities that benefit the IoM, he's got a good start and would probably gain supporters quickly, at least amidst the more impressionable folks.

 Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:A more important question is this: would the Space Marines and Custodians kneel before such a being? These people remember who the Emperor was, and what his ideals were

No, I'm fairly sure they do not "remember". They are being told, just like everyone else. Just that their Chaplains tell them a different story than what the Ecclesiarchy Preacher tells his flock.
Anyways, I'd say the Marines' reaction would depend simply on one thing: Does this Emperor visually appear to be the guy that sat on the Golden Throne? If yes, it's him. If there is still a corpse on the Golden Throne (and the Space Marines are told of it), then I would assume they'd be way more sceptical. As would be a whole other people in the Imperium, including the Inquisition. One does not just appear out of nowhere and claim to be Him-on-Earth.
That said, if the guy actually manages to turn an important battle around or otherwise be able to display miraculous abilities that benefit the IoM, he's got a good start and would probably gain supporters quickly, at least amidst the more impressionable folks.

Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel. And if they get word to the other Second Founding Chapters, its a civil war in the making. The Dark Angels would probably side with the Space Wolves - like their Primarchs, the Wolves and the Unforgiven are vitriolic best buddies.

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

The Burning of Monarchia, the subsequent proscription and persecution of any form of worship of himself or any deity prove otherwise.

The Emperor either actively wanted to end up on the Golden Throne or was a hugely incompetent idiot, IMHO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor either actively wanted to end up on the Golden Throne or was a hugely incompetent idiot, IMHO.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it as well.

Although the golden throne wasn't meant to be a life support like it is, so he probably didn't plan that part at least.

I meant to imply that he actively wanted to use the Golden Throne as the world's largest iron lung.

Current fluff dictates that he actually desired Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne (Whether it was in chains or freely is not certain at the moment, Magnus thinks the latter, some Daemon or Tzeentch or whatever thought the latter).

Whatever the case, Magnus accidentally fethed that plan when he blew up the Webway Gate.

the fact that things did not likely go as he planned is the strongest argument against his god hood, and calling him stupid or somesuch is hindsight/ armchair generaling, he did what he did when he did, if he could call all the shots and how things woukld happen, he would not be on the golden toilet.

Now in the intervening thousands of years he may have acheived a form of godhood...since acts of faith and such have real tangible results..it is the warp and strange things happen when enough people beleive or behave a certain way.

But meh...I like my greater good..its more abstact

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I meant to imply that he actively wanted to use the Golden Throne as the world's largest iron lung.

Current fluff dictates that he actually desired Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne (Whether it was in chains or freely is not certain at the moment, Magnus thinks the latter, some Daemon or Tzeentch or whatever thought the latter).

Whatever the case, Magnus accidentally fethed that plan when he blew up the Webway Gate.

No, Magnus was supposed to lead the exploration/conquest of the Webway, not to sit on the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne's psychic barriers would be useless once the Imperial Webway had linked to the main network, at which point the Throne Gate would be useful only as a reference point similar to the Astronomican: to prevent Humans in the Webway from getting lost.

A Thousand Sons disagrees with you.

Well the reason I use terms like incompetent if he didn't intend to eventually be worshiped is because, frankly, this guy is supposed to have played religious figures, saints, etc in the past-- as in, OUR past. He had 30k+ years of experience learning about and manipulating humanity.

He should KNOW by now how people react whenever you appear before them in a certain way. And yet he appeared in such a way as to inspire people to worship him despite this. If the fluff said he was born like fourty years before the great crusade or something, I'd understand his mistakes. But that's not what it says....

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Thousand Sons disagrees with you.

Then again, I'm not one to listen to Tzeentch or to any of his messengers.

Magnus learned the Emperor's plans when they psychically linked after Magnus accidentally the Webway.

 Melissia wrote:
Well the reason I use terms like incompetent if he didn't intend to eventually be worshiped is because, frankly, this guy is supposed to have played religious figures, saints, etc in the past-- as in, OUR past. He had 30k+ years of experience learning about and manipulating humanity.

He should KNOW by now how people react whenever you appear before them in a certain way. And yet he appeared in such a way as to inspire people to worship him despite this. If the fluff said he was born like fourty years before the great crusade or something, I'd understand his mistakes. But that's not what it says....

I like to imagine that, despite his overpowering psychic presence that gave everyone mind boners when near him, he had little to no understanding of normal people. He wasn't a human by any stretch of the definition, being more akin to a colossal psychic presence in the Warp that happens to have a physical vessel. This is why he handled Angron in the most idiotically heavy-handed fashion (You can replace Angron with Lorgar or Magnus), or why he for some reason never thought to give the Primarchs a reason for why he left for Terra (The Emperor giving people commands to further his plans without bothering to tell his subordinates what those plans were is a recurring trait of his), and, yeah, why he for some reason thought that people should have no reason to worship him as a god... When he is a ten foot tall man in golden shining armour, who radiates a powerful light and sort of projects starships across space with the power of his mind.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus learned the Emperor's plans when they psychically linked after Magnus accidentally the Webway.

True...but Tzeentch had already clouded his mind by then. I doubt if his thoughts were 'straight'. They were already twisted/crooked by the hand of Tzeentch.

The strength of the Emperor's thoughts and his mind is too great to be blocked by Tzeentch.

And nah, though played by Tzeentch like a fiddle, everything Magnus did was a conscious decision on his part.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The strength of the Emperor's thoughts and his mind is too great to be blocked by Tzeentch.

And nah, though played by Tzeentch like a fiddle, everything Magnus did was a conscious decision on his part.

It wasn't the Emperor's mind that was clouded - it was Magnus. He saw something different from what the Emperor wanted him to see. Not much of a literal difference, but just enough. I bet he was even offered by the Emperor a chance at redemption/forgiveness if he surrendered and allowed himself to be taken to Terra. Instead, he saw what the Powers wanted him to see - Horus telling Russ to burn Prospero to the ground. And TBH, Russ did ask someone (can't remember who) in Prospero Burns to take a message to Magnus and the Thousand Sons. He probably wanted to hear Magnus' side of the story before deciding which orders to obey:

1) The Emperor: bring Magnus back to Terra.
2) Horus: kill Magnus, destroy the Thousand Sons, and burn Prospero to the ground.

Unfortunately, Magnus' mind was too clouded to respond, and thus Russ chose to obey Horus.

Those are all pretty nice assumptions and speculation you have there.

Also, Leman Russ was speaking with their personal fellater (The guy who he pays to tell the Space Wolves how awesome they are), talking directly to Magnus, because he believed Magnus had his Thousand Sons implant a psychic link in said fellater's mind to Magnus himself.

Only he didn't. A Daemon was living in his brain, Magnus never had anything to do with his state. Leman Russ just assumed the Thousand Sons had committed a crime.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Only he didn't. A Daemon was living in his brain, Magnus never had anything to do with his state. Leman Russ just assumed the Thousand Sons had committed a crime.

Thanks for the correction. But thing is, Magnus was offered a chance for forgiveness/redemption but never received it because of Tzeentch's machinations.

That's true.

Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's true.

Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.

Its more complicated than that, but I agree. If the Emperor gave an order and the Warmaster countermanded it, I'd still obey the Emperor.

The whole leaping to a conclusion that Magnus was doing sorcery in some dude's mind to spy on his legion without bothering to so much as confront Magnus or even tell his dad about his suspicions helps as well.

That issue could have been solved by Magnus opening his mind to the Emperor and proving his innocence.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The whole leaping to a conclusion that Magnus was doing sorcery in some dude's mind to spy on his legion without bothering to so much as confront Magnus or even tell his dad about his suspicions helps as well.

That issue could have been solved by Magnus opening his mind to the Emperor and proving his innocence.

I was thinking that instead of sending a sorcerous message, Magnus could just have taken his fastest ships and best legionaries to Terra and warned the Emperor in person, but that is a good idea.

Magnus thought that Warp travel would have been unreliable.

And this is actually a fair point on Magnus's part, in recent times, the Warp has been restless, hard to read, or travel in, an Astropath message might never make it, and a trip to Terra (Prospero is a long ass way away lol) would take far too long in all likelihood.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus thought that Warp travel would have been unreliable.

And this is actually a fair point on Magnus's part, in recent times, the Warp has been restless, hard to read, or travel in, an Astropath message might never make it, and a trip to Terra (Prospero is a long ass way away lol) would take far too long in all likelihood.

Prior to Nikaea (when he was in his right mind and unclouded by doubt/paranoia) he would have taken the chance as a means of proving his loyalty.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:This, I believe, is why the Emperor cannot be reborn, because his essence is still tied to his mortal body. When this dies he will be released fully and ascend to godhood.

I would not call it godhood but rather a rebirth and return to his old status as he was during the Great Crusade ... but yes, your interpretation is supported by the fluff in the Inquisitor RPG, with certain influential powers in the Imperium actively trying to prevent this event.

I don't see how he would return to Great Crusade release Emperor, if his body dies, then he will have to start afresh if he doesn't become a god. Would he be able to reincarnate himself like the Shamans were able to, I'm not so sure. He would either become a God in the warp or like any other mortal, fade away.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Now this does contradict my own belief that the likes of Ares and Kali are Khorne by a different name.

Personally, I think my own position would be that today's Khorne has ursurped both Ares and Kali and is now revered as both, just like I have a feeling that Khairne is a tad too close to Khorne's domain to be a coincidence.

Or alternatively they are certain aspects of Khorne, like a family tree in a way. Khorne is the Granddaddy of them all and the rest are his children.

Oh yes, this is a quote that I like to use a lot to point this out

When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way.

Here is a thought

One night the Goddess Lileath had a dream in which she saw Khaine the War God torn to pieces by a mortal descendant of Kurnous the god of the hunt and Isha the goddess of the harvest.

The necessity of food bought about the bloodshed between man, this bloodshed bringing about Khorne who is a God birthed by Mortals..

 Lynata wrote:

ENOZONE wrote:1, There is no evidence to suggest what happens to humans after they die. Theories and beliefs perhaps - but nothing more concrete than what we have in real life.

"If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."
- 4E Codex: Eldar, p14 Spirit Stones

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4e

When followers of Chaos die, their souls do not fade and disappear like the spirits of others ...

Back on the subject of worship

A Chaos God can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals. Those that worship a Chaos God and behave in a way that feeds it are rewarded with strange gifts ...

So does worship count as an action or is an action regarded as slaying someone and then the worship is to get the respective Gods attention?

 Lynata wrote:

ENOZONE wrote:Yet, to date, only one SoB has fallen to Chaos, and it was willingly done.

If you are referring to Miriael Sabathiel, she was tortured for months until she broke - that's not a "willing" fall...

Do we know if she was tortured or if she let Slaanesh whisper to her? I've not been able to find any source that tells us how she actually fell, just that she did.

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

I do find him not knowing about the Heresy pretty hard to believe, I mean the Emperor was supposed to have amazing foresight that only failed him up to the point before he boarded the Vengeful Spirit, how did he not have an idea of what was going to happen.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor [...][ never wanted to be worshipped in the first place

THat's kidn of debatable.

Sure, the common belief was that he never wanted to be worshiped and was simply too stupid to realize that appearing as a god would make him be worshiped, but I think that he did have a plan to have humans worship him eventually-- he just didn't plan on the Horus Heresy.

The Burning of Monarchia, the subsequent proscription and persecution of any form of worship of himself or any deity prove otherwise.

Take something away from someone and they will want it more

 Tadashi wrote:

No, Magnus was supposed to lead the exploration/conquest of the Webway, not to sit on the Golden Throne. The Golden Throne's psychic barriers would be useless once the Imperial Webway had linked to the main network, at which point the Throne Gate would be useful only as a reference point similar to the Astronomican: to prevent Humans in the Webway from getting lost.

Really, source please? If anything background states that the Emperor had intended Magnus to sit on the throne, a la Collected Visions.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's true.

Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.

Its more complicated than that, but I agree. If the Emperor gave an order and the Warmaster countermanded it, I'd still obey the Emperor.

Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Russ [i]did[/i0 obey the Emperor, Horus was made commanded of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.

Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Take something away from someone and they will want it more

That's what Iterators and Remembrancers were for - to remind people that faith was not necessary to create a grand, star-spanning civilization.

Too bad Malcador didn't survive the Heresy - he would have prevented the rise of the Imperial Cult.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.

Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster.

As the omniscient reader we know that Horus is a traitor and what has happened, but does Russ know, no he doesn't. Nor does anyone else at this time, Ok Magnus does , but no one believes him . It's only after the events on Istvaan that they know that Horus is a traitor and should no longer be obeyed.

Also does Russ know that Horus changed the order from the Emperor, or maybe Emperor did change the order, past it on to Horus and then Horus to him? Russ has no reason to not trust Horus at this time.

Hey, I think it's stupid of Russ to not even give it a second thought, he was warned twice before about Horus fall, but didn't stop to think for a second that it was true.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Take something away from someone and they will want it more

That's what Iterators and Remembrancers were for - to remind people that faith was not necessary to create a grand, star-spanning civilization.

Too bad Malcador didn't survive the Heresy - he would have prevented the rise of the Imperial Cult.

Wasn't one these to become a Saint though? Wasn't the Imperial Cult already in its early birth stages throughout the Imperium at this time? You can try and stop something by using rational thought, it doesn't mean that everyone is going to accept it.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Russ did obey the Emperor, Horus was made commander of the Imperiums forces by the the Emperor. If Russ had decided to ignore what Horus had requested of him, he would have been disobeying an order from the Emperor.

Again with this reasoning? The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, and Horus changed it. But so what? He may be Warmaster, but he has no right to change an order from the Emperor himself. By your reasoning, if Horus' word is the Emperor's word, then all the loyalists were traitors since they fought against the Warmaster.

As the omniscient reader we know that Horus is a traitor and what has happened, but does Russ know, no he doesn't. Nor does anyone else at this time, Ok Magnus does , but no one believes him . It's only after the events on Istvaan that they know that Horus is a traitor and should no longer be obeyed.

Also does Russ know that Horus changed the order from the Emperor, or maybe Emperor did change the order, past it on to Horus and then Horus to him? Russ has no reason to not trust Horus at this time.

Hey, I think it's stupid of Russ to not even give it a second thought, he was warned twice before about Horus fall, but didn't stop to think for a second that it was true.

Fair enough - but I would still follow the Emperor's orders over the Warmaster's.

Wasn't one these to become a Saint though? Wasn't the Imperial Cult already in its early birth stages throughout the Imperium at this time? You can try and stop something by using rational thought, it doesn't mean that everyone is going to accept it.

Amandera Kerrel - she was imprisoned on Luna along with the survivors of Istvaan III. But the latter were recruited by Malcador the Sigillite, who left her to rot (as she should have done) in the Sisters' fortress.

 Tadashi wrote:


Fair enough - but I would still follow the Emperor's orders over the Warmaster's.

The point is Russ wasn't to know that he was not following the Emperors Orders, as far as he was concerned, he was. We don't know the specific communication between Horus and Russ, but if Horus said 'The Emperor has advised to exterminate Magnus as the taint goes to deep', then the Emperor has advised it, doesn't matter if it is a lie or not. Russ has no reason not to believe that this is exactly what the Emperor said.

 Tadashi wrote:

Amandera Kerrel - she was imprisoned on Luna along with the survivors of Istvaan III. But the latter were recruited by Malcador the Sigillite, who left her to rot (as she should have done) in the Sisters' fortress.

I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment.

Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment.

Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two

Whoops! Mixed up the two (Keeler and Kerrel)...anyway, the gist of it is that Emperor isn't a god. He never was. While he certainly pushes the definition of Human, the Emperor is just a Human psyker. The mightiest of them all.

Tadashi wrote:Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel.

So that's one Chapter that has to pay the price, then.
Though I wouldn't be so sure that Bjorn remembers the Emperor so well, considering his unimportant role back then. It's really not like they were close friends or anything.

Melissia wrote:That's kidn of debatable.

I guess so. The few information we have on his motifs are all from some novel, and we all know how reliable those are in terms of fluff consistency.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Now in the intervening thousands of years he may have acheived a form of godhood...since acts of faith and such have real tangible results..it is the warp and strange things happen when enough people beleive or behave a certain way.

Acts of Faith do not seem to be connected to the Warp of psychic powers in any way - but yeah, there's still a lot of weird things happening all around the galaxy. Saint Sebastian and Saint Joachim dispelling warp storms during the Age of Apostasy or the 13th Black Crusade, for example. Emperor's intervention?

Would not necessarily have to do much with worship or behavior, though. The Emperor is just a really, really great Psyker.

Pilau Rice wrote:I don't see how he would return to Great Crusade release Emperor, if his body dies, then he will have to start afresh if he doesn't become a god. Would he be able to reincarnate himself like the Shamans were able to, I'm not so sure. He would either become a God in the warp or like any other mortal, fade away.

Well, I think it's obvious that he is special. What that means in detail, however, is anyone's guess...

"The Golden Throne works", one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."
"His soul lives on?", another inquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"
"It is not", the first confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."
"Then it can be brought back", suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."
"We cannot rish such a thing!", the first voice hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's ... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way."
(from GW's Inquisitor RPG)

Pilau Rice wrote:So does worship count as an action or is an action regarded as slaying someone and then the worship is to get the respective Gods attention?

Personally, I think the act of worship as well as the thoughts connected to it are just a "vessel" to carry the emotion that is the true source of power. And the God's attention is called forth by creating a large enough source?

Pilau Rice wrote:Do we know if she was tortured or if she let Slaanesh whisper to her? I've not been able to find any source that tells us how she actually fell, just that she did.

Hmm. I've checked her story again, and indeed it does not tell us details. That's what I get for just believing something fans enter into a wiki, I suppose - and here I thought I was cured of that.

Where are you, Miriael? Karamanz wondered. That wasn’t the real question. The real question was what did they do to you?
What did the vile powers of Chaos manage to do to you when they held you in their clutches? Verdicon. That’s where it happened. Miriael Sabathiel, sister superior, had been reported as missing in action during the vicious fighting against the unholy Emperor’s Children.
And then this. Back from the dead. Back, but changed. Changed in ways no other sister of battle had ever been changed.
Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.

Now, of course one could say the story kinda implies it, given that we're talking about the Emperor's Children and a Sister's purity here, but ... yeah, interpretations.
I'm sorry, I thought it was more solid. :I

 Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bjorn remembers...the Space Wolves would never kneel.

So that's one Chapter that has to pay the price, then.
Though I wouldn't be so sure that Bjorn remembers the Emperor so well, considering his unimportant role back then. It's really not like they were close friends or anything.

The Unforgiven would stand with the Wolves - vitriolic best buddies, remember? And Bjorn remembers. IIRC, there was one novel where an Inquisitor introduced himself as a representative of the 'God-Emperor', only for Bjorn to start laughing and comment that calling the Emperor a god was how 'this whole mess' started.

You and your "civil war" ideas.

I'm still not quite understanding why there should be any reluctance. How big, do you think, is the chance that Bjorn and a (re)born Emperor would ever actually see each other? IF he's lucky (considering he only gets woken up once every century or so) he gets to hear stories about Emps coming back, and how the Imperium rejoices. Then what?

In the end, the Space Wolves are quite simply not the Imperial authority on approving or disapproving an Emperor's claim to the throne. That's something the High Lords and the Inquisition will do. The SW should be lucky they're (probably) kept in the loop when they receive the astropathic communication some day.

 Lynata wrote:
That's something the High Lords and the Inquisition will do. The SW should be lucky they're (probably) kept in the loop when they receive the astropathic communication some day.

All contact is subsequently lost with the Fenris and Caliban Sectors, and later on, the Realm of Ultramar. Unrest steadily spreads and increases across other Astartes realms and Mechanicum Forge Worlds and their other colonies.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's true.

Which was made possible by Leman Russ being a total tool and an idiot.

Here are facts once and for all :
1. clumsy red zit (pushed by Tzeench) destroyed webway portal and fethed imperuim for life (Russ was with the Emp when that happened based on old codex astartes - @pilau correct me if im wrong)
2. clumsy red zit had a choice to die or to sell his arse - he sold it (Russ and every loyal primarch would rather die)
3. Russ sobs "Oooooo Father why did you give me that order" in Prospero burns so do the math,Horus just pushed him further
4. Magnus ADMITED that he put spies into SW (just it wasn't Hawser, EPIC fail for the Wolves ) and also was a pervert because he did study Russ from his tower
5. Magnus hates Imperium and he is utterly stupid or blind by Horus treachery OR simply just a traitor

4th fellowship who renounced Magnus speaks about his "Righteousness" ...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I was referring to Euphrati Keeler, we do not know their fate at the moment.

Dammit Tadashi, we're back to Magnus and the Space Wolves again ... couldn't you have commented on one of my thoughts about the thread topic and not these two

Whoops! Mixed up the two (Keeler and Kerrel)...anyway, the gist of it is that Emperor isn't a god. He never was. While he certainly pushes the definition of Human, the Emperor is just a Human psyker. The mightiest of them all.

Agree but damn me if there isn't some twisted warp creature from which are saints drawing power - btw I like your idea abot two emperors

 DarthMarko wrote:
1. clumsy red zit (pushed by Tzeench) destroyed webway portal and fethed imperuim for life (Russ was with the Emp when that happened based on old codex astartes - @pilau correct me if im wrong)

In the old Index Astartes articles and IIRC in Collected Visions Russ was there, HH doesn't tell us either way. Tome of Fate, a Black Crusade supplement (Or it might have been First Founding, a Deathwatch supplement) also says Russ was there.

Magnus destroyed the Webway portal that he didn't know existed. One would think that the Emperor would tell the guy who was supposed to sit on it.

2. clumsy red zit had a choice to die or to sell his arse - he sold it (Russ and every loyal primarch would rather die)

Magnus chose to save his Legion, not himself. He had no intention of leaving Prospero alive. Tzeentch had other plans.

3. Russ sobs "Oooooo Father why did you give me that order" in Prospero burns so do the math,Horus just pushed him further

No he doesn't, never does he explicitly state that the Emperor gave him the order, and Horus outright confirms that it was he who gave the order in Galaxy in Flames, and indirectly the Daemon in Prospero Burns says the same (While acting as Horus).

4. Magnus ADMITED that he put spies into SW (just it wasn't Hawser, EPIC fail for the Wolves ) and also was a pervert because he did study Russ from his tower

Prove that Magnus put spies into the SW.

5. Magnus hates Imperium and he is utterly stupid or blind by Horus treachery OR simply just a traitor

Magnus hates the Imperium now, he didn't then. And was the only one not blind to Horus's treachery, hence trying to save Horus himself and then warning the Emperor of Horus's treachery.

You should probably read the fluff first, before you comment on it. Also, you're sad and pathetic.

I'm gone for literally 12 hours and there's a thesis paper on Imperial religion as a response to my response... ugh.. I'm not even sure if I want to read all of this lmao.

As far as I am concerned, the Emperor is (and perhaps was) the Chaos God of Oppression.

Glory to the Emperor!

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Magnus hates the Imperium now, he didn't then. And was the only one not blind to Horus's treachery, hence trying to save Horus himself and then warning the Emperor of Horus's treachery.

A Thousand Sons puts a twist on this - Magnus may hate the Imperium now, but only because its no longer the Imperium he and his father built. His comments during Battle of the Fang also seem to support this. Magnus never hated his father, and never will. But he will never forgive the Imperium for throwing away his father's dreams and ideals. And this may be another reason Dorn went emo after the Siege of Terra (especially after the events of the The Last Remembrancer) - his honor wouldn't let him hate the Imperium for what it was becoming (a complete perversion of what he, and his father and brothers built, not to mention giving victory in all but name to Horus and his cohorts).

I'm a lazy assrammer and haven't actually read Battle of the Fang yet, lol.

That sounds neat though. Based on what little I've read about Magnus in the current timeline, he doesn't seem happy with his lot in like (Unlike, say, Angron, who seems to be having the time of his life).

 Lynata wrote:
This is an interesting exchange, by the way. Our interpretations seem to be quite different on a number of sub-topics, but it's a fun exchange.

Lynata, I don't have time to do a full exchange atm, but I do have to agree with you, it's fun seeing a contrasting view that is well supported, but because it's GW and cannot be "proven" like science, allows us to both be right, and both be wrong. For example,

 Lynata wrote:
"If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. To a Human, such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of the Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar."
- 4E Codex: Eldar, p14 Spirit Stones

Sure, but it doesn't tell us where human souls go when they die. Do they disintegrate and simply feed the warp? Are they drawn to a certain section? Does the hypothetical God-Emperor claim their essence as Slaanesh claims an unbound Eldar? If enough human souls are sent into the warp, does a human orientated avatar in the form of a Living Saint then appear as en echo to their emotional turmoil- regardless of prayer? If so, then is this simply an exaggeration of how much stronger an Eldar is than a human in a piece of propaganda meant to instill loyalty to the xenos- and therefore mislead how powerful human's and their emotions actually are?

 Lynata wrote:
"The destruction of a Daemon's physical form will banish it from realspace, but will not end its existence. The malefic presence will gradually reform again in the Warp, nursing its hatred and its grudge for long decades or even centuries. If such an entity gets a chance, it will return, its hatred further stoked with a horrible vengeance in mind."
- 6E 40k Rulebook

That does not explain why the demon, who uniquely inhabits a dead body, returns in that dead body even after the corpse is utterly destroyed - when all other demons may rejuvenate dead flesh, but cannot truly resurrect the dead - and certainly cannot do what Living Saints can - I.e. retain the memories and passions of those vessels they seem to make truly indestructible. What then sets them apart from the other demons - such as a Bloodthirster, who takes the same form no matter what vessel it tears it's way through into realspace? Would it be the power of the God-Emperor, or something else? If it was not the God Emperor, why would other demons seemingly be incapable of this deceitful use of a corpse, especially Tzeentch?

 Lynata wrote:

ENOZONE wrote:If emotion from living beings, not just psykers, creates things that inhabit the warp, then can emotions directed by religion create a Deity, or even a pantheon of Deities, such as the God-Emperor and his most adored martyrs?

The emotion itself, yes, I would say. Religion will ultimately be unable to directly influence whatever the emotions conjured by worship create, but it can be used to steer things into a certain direction, if you get my drift. Just like the many Pleasure Cults among the Eldar eventually resulted in the birth of Slaanesh.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why certain demons seem to be able to target individuals of the IoM for a cause that is meant to destroy what lies within the warp - refer to the problem above - why would a demon, be banished back into the warp, and retain the memories of it's dead host, only to return and in the embodiment of the host and continue to fight as the host would, especially if the host's soul merely disintegrates when it strikes the warp? Now do you see the discrepancy between the how religion and thought doesn't affect the warp as much as emotion does? On one hand, either the Eldar codex is exaggerating the Eldar vs Human souls in the warp - making a human's soul not only a lot more powerful and influential, but also the indoctrination of human religion brought into the warp with the banishment of a human vessel makes religion suddenly EXTREMELY important to the warp because suddenly thoughts and ideas truly matter as much as emotion with an "enlightened" demon running around. On the other, if the soul of a Living Saint's vessel is obliterated as it enters the warp, how then does a Living Saint retain the memory of it's host when neither its body, nor its spirit remain if thought's do not influence that particular demon and by extension, the warp?

ENOZONE wrote:but because it's GW and cannot be "proven" like science, allows us to both be right, and both be wrong.

Like every so often, a matter of interpretations. As the maker intended, I'd say.

ENOZONE wrote:Sure, but it doesn't tell us where human souls go when they die.

Ugh ... I would actually expect this is said somewhere, one would just have to look it up and find the reference. I'd say they are gobbled up (i.e. claimed/absorbed) by the beings of the Warp, but don't ask me for a quote on this now.
In a twisted way, this could actually mean that human souls do end up at the Emperor's side after death - just not exactly the way the Ecclesiarchy suggests.

ENOZONE wrote:That does not explain why the demon, who uniquely inhabits a dead body, returns in that dead body even after the corpse is utterly destroyed - when all other demons may rejuvenate dead flesh, but cannot truly resurrect the dead - and certainly cannot do what Living Saints can - I.e. retain the memories and passions of those vessels they seem to make truly indestructible.

Oh, I would assume that the Living Saint does not actually return to a dead body (after all, it may have been disintegrated completely, plus it is bound to a specific location in realspace), but rather that it recreates its form from scratch. Like ... a copy, you know? As for the memories, I do think daemonic possession includes a mindmeld of sorts, and the passion is there anyways as it was this which conjured the spirit in the first place.

ENOZONE wrote:If it was not the God Emperor, why would other demons seemingly be incapable of this deceitful use of a corpse, especially Tzeentch?

Actually, I would assume they are not incapable of doing so. It's just that their own power always twists and warps the host in a way befitting the respective Chaos God. The most prominent example would be Horus suddenly growing fanged teeth and getting all glowy red eyes, and so on. Each daemon's form resembles the linked Chaos power, and if a daemon possesses someone, their form changes as well. Isn't this what happened in a few stories? I also recall the Nurgle Zombie Plague now. Check out this story for how Chaos can raise the dead.

ENOZONE wrote:Ok, but that doesn't explain why certain demons seem to be able to target individuals of the IoM for a cause that is meant to destroy what lies within the warp.

Hmm, what are you referring to, exactly?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
1. clumsy red zit (pushed by Tzeench) destroyed webway portal and fethed imperuim for life (Russ was with the Emp when that happened based on old codex astartes - @pilau correct me if im wrong)

In the old Index Astartes articles and IIRC in Collected Visions Russ was there, HH doesn't tell us either way. Tome of Fate, a Black Crusade supplement (Or it might have been First Founding, a Deathwatch supplement) also says Russ was there.

Magnus destroyed the Webway portal that he didn't know existed. One would think that the Emperor would tell the guy who was supposed to sit on it.

2. clumsy red zit had a choice to die or to sell his arse - he sold it (Russ and every loyal primarch would rather die)

Magnus chose to save his Legion, not himself. He had no intention of leaving Prospero alive. Tzeentch had other plans.

3. Russ sobs "Oooooo Father why did you give me that order" in Prospero burns so do the math,Horus just pushed him further

No he doesn't, never does he explicitly state that the Emperor gave him the order, and Horus outright confirms that it was he who gave the order in Galaxy in Flames, and indirectly the Daemon in Prospero Burns says the same (While acting as Horus).

4. Magnus ADMITED that he put spies into SW (just it wasn't Hawser, EPIC fail for the Wolves ) and also was a pervert because he did study Russ from his tower

Prove that Magnus put spies into the SW.

5. Magnus hates Imperium and he is utterly stupid or blind by Horus treachery OR simply just a traitor

Magnus hates the Imperium now, he didn't then. And was the only one not blind to Horus's treachery, hence trying to save Horus himself and then warning the Emperor of Horus's treachery.

You should probably read the fluff first, before you comment on it. Also, you're sad and pathetic.

This is about spies

And saving his legion was fething crap - o yeah he waited while 9/10 legion gets stomped and then he acts (and loses)
and btw read the damn books for Pete sake, he cared more for the knowlege in his libraries then his sons
thats why 4th fellowship had a good opinion on him

P.S. you are pathetic and always bitching about Magnus but you are teen I' get it you have issues
now go squeeze your pimples or start reading before you turn another thread into "Magnus was martyr"...

He is talking about actual Space Wolves, like Wyrdmake. Not fiddling with the mind of a mortal and then sending him to the Space Wolves.

It's ironic you use him as an example, since Leman Russ explicitly used Wyrdmake to spy on and then testify against the Thousand Sons. At best, they are equally treacherous towards eachother.

He intended to die, this is what the text states, and Magnus and Ahriman's minds linked when Magnus finished the spell to send away his Legion.

"This is my gift to you."

You have no leg to stand on short of bias. Magnus intended to sacrifice himself and his legion, as stated by him and made clear by his actions (Telepathically blocking his sons from being alerted by the Space Wolf ships appearing in realspace or divinating their approach, etc).

He was horrified by the brutality of the Space Wolves, and decided to save his sons at the cost of his soul. Don't get me wrong, it was foolish of him to not act sooner (Unlike you I can admit the faults of my favorite characters and armies), and Magnus deserved his fate. His sons didn't.

He cared everything for his sons. That's why, despite how arrogant he was of his power, he shamefully accepted the aid of forces he did not understand to save them from the Flesh Change.

Ironically enough, the most dangerous pairing of Primarchs and legions, everything else aside, would have been Magnus and Russ, and the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Nothing would have stopped them.

Thousands Sons having spies in Space Wolves?
It's an Alpha Legion trap!
Magnus is Omegon!
Omegon is Alpharius!
Herzog is Herzog!
Run!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He is talking about actual Space Wolves, like Wyrdmake. Not fiddling with the mind of a mortal and then sending him to the Space Wolves.

It's ironic you use him as an example, since Leman Russ explicitly used Wyrdmake to spy on and then testify against the Thousand Sons. At best, they are equally treacherous towards eachother.

He intended to die, this is what the text states, and Magnus and Ahriman's minds linked when Magnus finished the spell to send away his Legion.

"This is my gift to you."

You have no leg to stand on short of bias. Magnus intended to sacrifice himself and his legion, as stated by him and made clear by his actions (Telepathically blocking his sons from being alerted by the Space Wolf ships appearing in realspace or divinating their approach, etc).

He was horrified by the brutality of the Space Wolves, and decided to save his sons at the cost of his soul. Don't get me wrong, it was foolish of him to not act sooner (Unlike you I can admit the faults of my favorite characters and armies), and Magnus deserved his fate. His sons didn't.

He cared everything for his sons. That's why, despite how arrogant he was of his power, he shamefully accepted the aid of forces he did not understand to save them from the Flesh Change.

You know that for a fact? Based on what ? Your "impartial" opinion ?
Even if it was so (and it's BIG NOT) you dont consider probing trough warp as spying ??? ****Slow clap*****
I sometimes feel sorry for you...your unlimited hate towards the SW is really sad...

Let's face it, the SW are barbarians. 'Ohh, it's a Library full of knowledge and with a capital L, let's destroy it!'

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Let's face it, the SW are barbarians. 'Ohh, it's a Library full of knowledge and with a capital L, let's destroy it!'

Yeap , burn it...especially if it has codex insignia on it...:-)

 DarthMarko wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Let's face it, the SW are barbarians. 'Ohh, it's a Library full of knowledge and with a capital L, let's destroy it!'

Yeap , burn it...especially if it has codex insignia on it...:-)

Ofcourse it's knowledge. Pass me another beer mate

 DarthMarko wrote:

Even if it was so (and it's BIG NOT) you dont consider probing trough warp as spying ??? ****Slow clap*****
I sometimes feel sorry for you...your unlimited hate towards the SW is really sad...

Technically, the Space Wolves' continued use of Rune Priests after the Edicts of Nikaea were passed make them as guilty as the Thousand Sons...I also hate the Space Wolves for their actions on Prospero. Their opposition to the Inquisition's frak-headed approach on things goes some way to make up for it, but not completely.

 DarthMarko wrote:
You know that for a fact? Based on what ? Your "impartial" opinion ?
Even if it was so (and it's BIG NOT) you dont consider probing trough warp as spying ??? ****Slow clap*****
I sometimes feel sorry for you...your unlimited hate towards the SW is really sad...

Based on the fluff. I comprehend it better than you do.

Leman Russ used Wyrdmake to spy on the Thousand Sons via his bond with Ahriman. This is a fact.

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Magnus the Red is far more attractive and the ladies want his big angry cyclops for themselves. This is a fact.

 Tadashi wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Even if it was so (and it's BIG NOT) you dont consider probing trough warp as spying ??? ****Slow clap*****
I sometimes feel sorry for you...your unlimited hate towards the SW is really sad...

Technically, the Space Wolves' continued use of Rune Priests after the Edicts of Nikaea were passed make them as guilty as the Thousand Sons...I also hate the Space Wolves for their actions on Prospero. Their opposition to the Inquisition's frak-headed approach on things goes some way to make up for it, but not completely.

Now tell me, how the hell did the use of rune priests get by Custoidians and SoS....?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Of all the Primarchs, none cared as much for his gene-sons as Magnus did, and that makes him all the more tragic.

Eh, I don't know if I would go quite that far, if only because I don't think a definite answer on that sort of thing could be found.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Of all the Primarchs, none cared as much for his gene-sons as Magnus did, and that makes him all the more tragic.

That is why he allowed them to die,oooo wait 1000 he did save, waaaait did he?

"Thousand sons" is a story about loyal legion and a primarch with giant hubris and questionable will who dragged them down....
even 1ksons fans tend to agree with this...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Of all the Primarchs, none cared as much for his gene-sons as Magnus did, and that makes him all the more tragic.

That is why he allowed them to die,oooo wait 1000 he did save, waaaait did he?

"Thousand sons" is a story about loyal legion and a primarch with giant hubris and questionable will who dragged them down....
even 1ksons fans tend to agree with this...

No no, it is the story of a poor marty primarch and his poor martyr sons who secretly long for nothing but being allowed to serve the Carriongod once again.
Oh wait, that was the Alpha Legion...or the Word Bearers, no, certainly the Nightlords? These days I sometimes get confused :(

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I don't see how he would return to Great Crusade release Emperor, if his body dies, then he will have to start afresh if he doesn't become a god. Would he be able to reincarnate himself like the Shamans were able to, I'm not so sure. He would either become a God in the warp or like any other mortal, fade away.

Well, I think it's obvious that he is special. What that means in detail, however, is anyone's guess...

"The Golden Throne works", one said, his voice aged and cracked. "The Emperor's life can be sustained indefinitely."
"His soul lives on?", another inquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. "It is not an empty husk?"
"It is not", the first confirmed. "The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link 'twixt body and spirit remains strong."
"Then it can be brought back", suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down to her waist. "The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death."
"We cannot rish such a thing!", the first voice hissed. "What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor's ... ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way."
(from GW's Inquisitor RPG)

Ah yes, but do they know this for sure? I guess we do, as there are sources likes Codex: Chaos Daemons that say as much. But they are worried themselves that should he be bought back he might be changed. Perhaps he gets bought back as a Mortal with no memory of his life. If the Golden Throne was shut down would he recover enough for his soul to return, the whole reason he was incarcerated was because he was near death. All unanswerable I know, but we can hypothesize.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:So does worship count as an action or is an action regarded as slaying someone and then the worship is to get the respective Gods attention?

Personally, I think the act of worship as well as the thoughts connected to it are just a "vessel" to carry the emotion that is the true source of power. And the God's attention is called forth by creating a large enough source?

Not sure I follow you, sorry Lynata. The way I see it for Khorne as an example is - Beserker takes skull > action > feeds Khorne / Beserker offers to Khorne > worship > gets Khornes attention.

Khorne doesn't necessarily care that you have taken a skull, what's another skull when you have a whole deck chair made out of them, it's when the Beserker says 'it's for for Khorne' that makes him Squee.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Do we know if she was tortured or if she let Slaanesh whisper to her? I've not been able to find any source that tells us how she actually fell, just that she did.

Hmm. I've checked her story again, and indeed it does not tell us details. That's what I get for just believing something fans enter into a wiki, I suppose - and here I thought I was cured of that.

Where are you, Miriael? Karamanz wondered. That wasn’t the real question. The real question was what did they do to you?
What did the vile powers of Chaos manage to do to you when they held you in their clutches? Verdicon. That’s where it happened. Miriael Sabathiel, sister superior, had been reported as missing in action during the vicious fighting against the unholy Emperor’s Children.
And then this. Back from the dead. Back, but changed. Changed in ways no other sister of battle had ever been changed.
Second only to the mighty Astartes, the sisters of battle were the most perfect fighting mechanisms of the Imperium of Man. Unlike the Astartes, none of them had ever fallen to corruption. What a trophy for Chaos. What a twisted champion.

Now, of course one could say the story kinda implies it, given that we're talking about the Emperor's Children and a Sister's purity here, but ... yeah, interpretations.
I'm sorry, I thought it was more solid. :I

Oh yeah, I see where you are coming from, but this is the thoughts from a Canoness who cannot fathom a Sister ever falling to Chaos, [SARCASM ENGAGED] surely the only way a sister to turn from the light of the Emperor would be by some dark act, never willingly, oh no, Emperor forbid That's how I believe it happened anyway, it's certainly more delicious to bring one to the Dark Prince by more subtle means rather than force them into submission, especially one so blinded by the bile preached by the Ecclessiarchy. Slaanesh didn't win Fulgrim by beating him with a dong, he waved it in his face a bit and he went over willingly, after some petty daemon tried to have his flesh, but that's neither here nor there.

 ENOZONE wrote:

Sure, but it doesn't tell us where human souls go when they die. Do they disintegrate and simply feed the warp? Are they drawn to a certain section? Does the hypothetical God-Emperor claim their essence as Slaanesh claims an unbound Eldar? If enough human souls are sent into the warp, does a human orientated avatar in the form of a Living Saint then appear as en echo to their emotional turmoil- regardless of prayer? If so, then is this simply an exaggeration of how much stronger an Eldar is than a human in a piece of propaganda meant to instill loyalty to the xenos- and therefore mislead how powerful human's and their emotions actually are?

Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4e

When followers of Chaos die, their souls do not fade and disappear like the spirits of others ...

So from this, if you do not worship a Chaos power, your soul fades and disappears, I guess it's also backed up by

RoC: LatD p174

The warp is an alternative universe composed entirely of psychic energy generated by the thoughts, emotions and intellectual activity of living beings.

So you have to be alive to have a signature in the warp, if you aren't alive then you fade away or get eaten by a warp predator.

ENOZONE wrote:That does not explain why the demon, who uniquely inhabits a dead body, returns in that dead body even after the corpse is utterly destroyed - when all other demons may rejuvenate dead flesh, but cannot truly resurrect the dead - and certainly cannot do what Living Saints can - I.e. retain the memories and passions of those vessels they seem to make truly indestructible. What then sets them apart from the other demons - such as a Bloodthirster, who takes the same form no matter what vessel it tears it's way through into realspace? Would it be the power of the God-Emperor, or something else? If it was not the God Emperor, why would other demons seemingly be incapable of this deceitful use of a corpse, especially Tzeentch?

Once the host vessel is destroyed I don't believe they can reinhabit the same body. It would have to find another meat puppet to possess, unless it's a Daemon prince that retains its mortal form.

 KingDeath wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Of all the Primarchs, none cared as much for his gene-sons as Magnus did, and that makes him all the more tragic.

That is why he allowed them to die,oooo wait 1000 he did save, waaaait did he?

"Thousand sons" is a story about loyal legion and a primarch with giant hubris and questionable will who dragged them down....
even 1ksons fans tend to agree with this...

No no, it is the story of a poor marty primarch and his poor martyr sons who secretly long for nothing but being allowed to serve the Carriongod once again.
Oh wait, that was the Alpha Legion...or the Word Bearers, no, certainly the Nightlords? These days I sometimes get confused :(

The Alpha Legion believe they still are serving the Emperor, since his primary wish was the destruction of Chaos as far as Alpharius was concerned.

The Word Bearers hate the Emperor and the Imperium now, and have found gods who actually want to be worshipped.

The Night Lords are pretty splintered AFAIK, but Kurze saw the state of the Imperium as justification for his prior actions.

@DeathMarko: Maybe Magnus was unwilling to fight the Space Wolves because he actually thought it was wrong to fight his brother, something Russ clearly had no problem with. The Thousand Sons fell because the Emperor refused to give any guidance to the primarchs about Chaos, despite making Magnus a psyker almost as powerful as the Emperor himself.

Pilau Rice wrote:Not sure I follow you, sorry Lynata. The way I see it for Khorne as an example is - Beserker takes skull > action > feeds Khorne / Beserker offers to Khorne > worship > gets Khornes attention.
Khorne doesn't necessarily care that you have taken a skull, what's another skull when you have a whole deck chair made out of them, it's when the Beserker says 'it's for for Khorne' that makes him Squee.

Nah, I meant that, to expand on your example, Khorne doesn't care at all whether or not the Berserker says 'it's for Khorne'. It's the emotions spilling forth from the event that trigger his attention. This is how the Chaos Gods can feed on the actions of a cult that doesn't even know Khorne under that name but rather worships some sort of berserker bull or whatever. This is also how those Plague Orks fed Nurgle even though they thought they were worshiping Gork and Mork - their mistake was they did this at an altar of Nurgle (thought to be Gork or Mork, I forgot) and got corrupted by it.

Also, this is what makes things so deliciously ironical - many of the actions the Imperium undertakes to defend itself against its enemies (including Chaos) actively feed one or another Chaos God purely by accident. Also, see the Dark Eldar's relationship to Slaanesh.

Just thinking out loud, of course. I don't have anything at hand that would count as evidence right now, I just think it works nicely with what I've read so far.

Pilau Rice wrote:Oh yeah, I see where you are coming from, but this is the thoughts from a Canoness who cannot fathom a Sister ever falling to Chaos, [SARCASM ENGAGED] surely the only way a sister to turn from the light of the Emperor would be by some dark act, never willingly, oh no, Emperor forbid

Well, what sort of dark act would you assume could cause this? Sisters of Battle possess a superior resistance to the lure of Chaos, and the studio material never mentions even one of them turning from the Emperor's light, whereas in Abnett's story, Miriael is said to be the only exception from a rule that has been in effect for 4.000 years.
Proud Fulgrim was won because he harboured aspirations and feelings alien to a Sororitas, whose whole lifestyle is focused on humility and devotion. I would agree that this may not rule out the chance of mental corruption completely, were it not for the utter lack of practical examples and the focus on purity in their fluff.

Pilau Rice wrote:Once the host vessel is destroyed I don't believe they can reinhabit the same body. It would have to find another meat puppet to possess, unless it's a Daemon prince that retains its mortal form.

Hmm, so do Daemon Princes "reform" the body they had as mortals even when their corporeal presence in realspace is destroyed? My knowledge on Chaos is a bit lacking ...

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Not sure I follow you, sorry Lynata. The way I see it for Khorne as an example is - Beserker takes skull > action > feeds Khorne / Beserker offers to Khorne > worship > gets Khornes attention.
Khorne doesn't necessarily care that you have taken a skull, what's another skull when you have a whole deck chair made out of them, it's when the Beserker says 'it's for for Khorne' that makes him Squee.

Nah, I meant that, to expand on your example, Khorne doesn't care at all whether or not the Berserker says 'it's for Khorne'. It's the emotions spilling forth from the event that trigger his attention. This is how the Chaos Gods can feed on the actions of a cult that doesn't even know Khorne under that name but rather worships some sort of berserker bull or whatever. This is also how those Plague Orks fed Nurgle even though they thought they were worshiping Gork and Mork - their mistake was they did this at an altar of Nurgle (thought to be Gork or Mork, I forgot) and got corrupted by it.

Also, this is what makes things so deliciously ironical - many of the actions the Imperium undertakes to defend itself against its enemies (including Chaos) actively feed one or another Chaos God purely by accident. Also, see the Dark Eldar's relationship to Slaanesh.

Just thinking out loud, of course. I don't have anything at hand that would count as evidence right now, I just think it works nicely with what I've read so far.

I still don't know, I am not sure whether or not it's the actual action or the worship that would grant you a gift. The action would clearly get you noticed, but unless you are actually praising your lord, your not going to get anything other than Spawndom.

A Champion of Chaos does not simply praise and venerate the Gods of Chaos, he swears his life and soul to their service, bargaining his own being in exchange for power and patronage

I guess it's all part of the deal ...

 Lynata wrote:
]Well, what sort of dark act would you assume could cause this? Sisters of Battle possess a superior resistance to the lure of Chaos, and the studio material never mentions even one of them turning from the Emperor's light, whereas in Abnett's story, Miriael is said to be the only exception from a rule that has been in effect for 4.000 years.

How about ... none. Miriael was shown the life she leads and what she could be should she be unbound, she chose the Dark Prince and a life of achieving what ever she desired. Miriael might be the only one ever, but even one is a testament to the Dark Prince and his unholy glory.

 Lynata wrote:

Proud Fulgrim was won because he harboured aspirations and feelings alien to a Sororitas, whose whole lifestyle is focused on humility and devotion. I would agree that this may not rule out the chance of mental corruption completely, were it not for the utter lack of practical examples and the focus on purity in their fluff.

You pick up on virgins having sex with pigs but not dongs being used as weapons

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Once the host vessel is destroyed I don't believe they can reinhabit the same body. It would have to find another meat puppet to possess, unless it's a Daemon prince that retains its mortal form.

Hmm, so do Daemon Princes "reform" the body they had as mortals even when their corporeal presence in realspace is destroyed? My knowledge on Chaos is a bit lacking ...

No I didn't mean that I don't think, I think what I mean is as they still have mortal ties they retain some form of that body and are able to manifest an aspect of it. But then I remembered that Magnus in Battle for the Fang has to possess a Sorcerer to be able to manifest on Fenris, but is able to appear as he was on Prospero.

In Priests of Mars,

I don't think they seem to have the same restrictions as regular daemons, but the more powerful Princes do It's awfully confusing. Voldorius doesn't seem to have problems with being killed and then bringing himself back.

Powerful discussion taking place here.

Pilau Rice wrote:I still don't know, I am not sure whether or not it's the actual action or the worship that would grant you a gift. The action would clearly get you noticed, but unless you are actually praising your lord, your not going to get anything other than Spawndom.

Possibly, but this then is just a conscious decision by that entity - in other words, the Chaos Gods probably like being worshipped and thus may reward faithful followers that do very specific things for them - but in the end, they'd get their power either way, because the emotions do not change regardless of whether you're having fun killing someone for Khorne, or you're simply having fun killing someone.

Pilau Rice wrote:How about ... none. Miriael was shown the life she leads and what she could be should she be unbound, she chose the Dark Prince and a life of achieving what ever she desired. Miriael might be the only one ever, but even one is a testament to the Dark Prince and his unholy glory.

Eh, don't buy it. If it would be that easy, there'd be whole armies of Chaos Sisters by now.
Ignorance is one of their virtues.

Pilau Rice wrote:No I didn't mean that I don't think, I think what I mean is as they still have mortal ties they retain some form of that body and are able to manifest an aspect of it. But then I remembered that Magnus in Battle for the Fang has to possess a Sorcerer to be able to manifest on Fenris, but is able to appear as he was on Prospero. In Priests of Mars,

Spoiler:

as the Slaanesh Daemon Prince is being defeated and banished back to the warp the final thing the Iron Hand sees is the face of an Astartes who was the First Captain

I don't think they seem to have the same restrictions as regular daemons, but the more powerful Princes do It's awfully confusing. Voldorius doesn't seem to have problems with being killed and then bringing himself back.

We probably have to keep in mind that every novel author has his own idea on how this works, too, much like the fans.

 Durza wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Magnus went into battle with no intention of leaving alive and sought only to save his sons. This is a fact.

Of all the Primarchs, none cared as much for his gene-sons as Magnus did, and that makes him all the more tragic.

That is why he allowed them to die,oooo wait 1000 he did save, waaaait did he?

"Thousand sons" is a story about loyal legion and a primarch with giant hubris and questionable will who dragged them down....
even 1ksons fans tend to agree with this...

No no, it is the story of a poor marty primarch and his poor martyr sons who secretly long for nothing but being allowed to serve the Carriongod once again.
Oh wait, that was the Alpha Legion...or the Word Bearers, no, certainly the Nightlords? These days I sometimes get confused :(

The Alpha Legion believe they still are serving the Emperor, since his primary wish was the destruction of Chaos as far as Alpharius was concerned.

The Word Bearers hate the Emperor and the Imperium now, and have found gods who actually want to be worshipped.

The Night Lords are pretty splintered AFAIK, but Kurze saw the state of the Imperium as justification for his prior actions.

@DeathMarko: Maybe Magnus was unwilling to fight the Space Wolves because he actually thought it was wrong to fight his brother, something Russ clearly had no problem with. The Thousand Sons fell because the Emperor refused to give any guidance to the primarchs about Chaos, despite making Magnus a psyker almost as powerful as the Emperor himself.

He wanted to sacrifice entire legion without asking them and killed poor Uthizzar just for knowing the truth...


But punishment was his, and his alone.. if he listened Ahriman this mess wouldn't happen


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I still don't know, I am not sure whether or not it's the actual action or the worship that would grant you a gift. The action would clearly get you noticed, but unless you are actually praising your lord, your not going to get anything other than Spawndom.

Possibly, but this then is just a conscious decision by that entity - in other words, the Chaos Gods probably like being worshipped and thus may reward faithful followers that do very specific things for them - but in the end, they'd get their power either way, because the emotions do not change regardless of whether you're having fun killing someone for Khorne, or you're simply having fun killing someone.

So Lynata what do you think Emp was trying to do with the "IT"? IMHO he simply wanted to starve the warp....after all, worshiping is an emotion....

DarthMarko wrote:So Lynata what do you think Emp was trying to do with the "IT"? IMHO he simply wanted to starve the warp....after all, worshiping is an emotion....

I'm not buying this "Imperial Truth". Granted, I've not read those novels myself, but from what I have learned here on these forums, this IT was specifically intended to do as you say - "starve the warp". And from what I have read in GW's books, it just doesn't work that way, so personally it is really just one of many things from some novel that I simply ignore for my own perception of the setting.

I mean, honestly. Whoever came up with that idea ... I'd love to hear how he thinks Slaanesh came to be. Obviously people didn't worship him/her/it before its existence.

The only possible way this could tie in with GW's own material is that the Emperor simply erred and did not fully understand how Chaos and the Chaos Gods work, thinking that the IT would work when it doesn't. *shrugs*

The Imperial Truth prevented active worship of Chaos, while the Emperor was busy blasting it to bits from the safety of his big chair.

This fluff is in both Collected Visions and in the Horus Heresy novels.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I still don't know, I am not sure whether or not it's the actual action or the worship that would grant you a gift. The action would clearly get you noticed, but unless you are actually praising your lord, your not going to get anything other than Spawndom.

Possibly, but this then is just a conscious decision by that entity - in other words, the Chaos Gods probably like being worshipped and thus may reward faithful followers that do very specific things for them - but in the end, they'd get their power either way, because the emotions do not change regardless of whether you're having fun killing someone for Khorne, or you're simply having fun killing someone.

I would say that it's not just about getting the power from the servant though, it's about them getting noticed by you. Perturabo didn't ascend to Daemonprince just because he killed a load of Imperial Fists, it's because he offered the Geneseed up to the Gods.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:How about ... none. Miriael was shown the life she leads and what she could be should she be unbound, she chose the Dark Prince and a life of achieving what ever she desired. Miriael might be the only one ever, but even one is a testament to the Dark Prince and his unholy glory.

Eh, don't buy it. If it would be that easy, there'd be whole armies of Chaos Sisters by now.
Ignorance is one of their virtues.

And I would expect nothing less.

I don't think it was a question of being easy, maybe Miriael was more susceptible or a special case. Why single her out.

The reasoning behind my thinking is that it's easy to torture someone into submission, it's less meaningful though. To bring someone willingly across to your side means so much more, this is why the Canoness in The Invitation finds it so hard to reason it, that any Sister could fall and that there must be something behind it that made her change.

I think we need more on Miriael, what we have is rather scarce.

I'd say that to become a divine being in the warp you either need:
A.) to be an IMMENSE presence in the warp. For example the emperor is maybe the greatest psionical presence beside the Chaos Gods themselves.
OR
B.) YOu are a manifestation of raw energy and emotion. Like the chaos gods.
As Lorgar said in "The First Heretic": "But father you are a god in everything but name. I won't defy truth just because the sound of a word is misfalling to you."
One could say that the emperors mortality is preventing him to become a god, because he needs his followers to manifest. SO do almost all chaos gods. The only chaos god who is eternal is Tzeentch as he is a lie by himself. He only needed lies to get born but doesn't need anything to survive.
Only my 2 cent