Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Nope, they're skilled fighters.

really? actually fight with some sort of skill? i would of thought that if they were raging it would be no sort of expert moves etc.

Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

redrooster148 wrote:
i would of thought that if they were raging it would be no sort of expert moves etc.

The rage does not really hinder them from executing superior martial form compared to most opponents.

oh right okay.

I mean, if you compared the very best swordsman of the Emperor's Children against the very best chainaxeman of the World Eaters, the former probably has better technique than the latter. But Khorne Bezerkers know their way around melee weapons much, much better than your average Ork or even Space Marine.

Berserkers are WS5 because they have no time for flynning when they're shedding blood for the blood god.

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

 Vaktathi wrote:

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

This.

 Vaktathi wrote:
and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

Actually they are aiming strikes with perfection WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY slamming their weapon into a foe with power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

There are 3 stats dealing with combat prowess: WS, S and A. To make X better in combat than Y you have to increment one of those stats. +1S doesn't fit - they aren't Ogryn. +1A was too powerful. So they got +1WS.

Why aren't Orks aren't S4 and WS3?

 Vaktathi wrote:

redrooster148 wrote:
Yeah i know they are dedicated to hand to hand combat but i cant imagine them doing expert parries, well aimed strikes etc. They are described as fighting with manic frenzy so wouldnt they run forward with no sort of guard raised and throwing heavy clumsy blows that could be easily dodged? I would of thought they would be base str5 and WS3?

Don't look at it as expert parries and well aimed strikes, look at it as something more akin to them keeping enemies off balance with so much raw aggression they can't get decent hits in, and they aren't aiming strikes with perfection but rather simply slamming a chainaxe into a foe with a power and speed that it becomes impossible to turn the blade with a deft parry.

In second edition Khorne Bezerkers were the only ones who could parry while frenzied. But at that time they were WS4 and Space Wolves were WS5.

That being said since 3rd edition the rules team have been trying to properly balance Khorne Bezerkers. First with rules then stats boost and rules. So the WS5 is nothng more then an attempt at game balance and a reason to take Khorne Bezerkers over normal Chaos Marines with the mark of Khorne.

Do not mix stats and fluff. It will rarely make sense.

Yeah, going by the fluff, a flak armor is armor - a carapace is 5+ AT BEST, PA is 2+ and TDA is 1+, eh.

Khorne is not just the blood god. He is also the god of martial prowess and warriors honor. Many people forget that aspect of khorne.

That's true. For all the criticisms of GW (and some of them are legitimate), I find it's often the "fans" who bring most of the HURR DURR to 40k.

 Harriticus wrote:
Do not mix stats and fluff. It will rarely make sense.

You are making the mistake of forgetting the fact they are always linked.

Example:

2nd ed Chaos Codex page 92 wrote:Such is the skill of these warriors in close combat that they are allowed to parry even when frenzied.

In this case they are one and the same fluff=rules. There is no way you can look at the rule effect without also knowing the fluff reason for it.

With the removal of "Parry" from the core rules. The design team needed a way for Khorne Bezerkers to demonstrate "Such is the skill of these warriors in close combat" without parry. And desided that the best way to do that was with a WS increase after trying different combinations of special rules first.

You also have to consider that for the fluff to represent that Khorne Bezerkers are better at close combat then then normal Chaos Marines. You need more then just fluff saying so. fearless, furious charge and +1ws for +2 pts extra for less options and starting wargear; Is entirely reasonable and represents the fluff in the rules well.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne is not just the blood god. He is also the god of martial prowess and warriors honor. Many people forget that aspect of khorne.

Thx for bringing this up Grey Templar.

I remember early stuff where WorldEaters would make opponent's pick their weapons back up and fight when they surrendered. Yeah, they may have killed every opponent, but they gave them a chance/made them fight back. They wanted to test their skills to show the Blood God their worth.

Somewhere this got all lost, and people think berzerkers skip along, arm in arm, singing tra la la la la and cutting heads off.

They're WS5 because GW needed to provide people a reason to take them.

Its more that they need a reason for them to be a choice worth taking. Rather then just a more expensive unit that really brings nothing extra to the table.

Because they're very skilled fighters.

That's it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Because they're very skilled fighters.

That's it.

Yup. They're much more skilled in melee combat than say, the average ork, or Space Marine, so they'll be at a higher WS.

Also keep in mind that weapon skill doesn't necessarily mean that the character is particularly elegant or refined in combat. For many characters, that goes with the territory, but that's more coincidence.

WS is simply a measure of how efficient the character is at throwing their strength around. Mainly, at throwing it into the skull of whoever is standing in their way.

Sure, they're angry.

But they're channeling that anger into 10,000 years worth of chain-axe fighting experience.

Someone who has built up that much muscle memory and accumulated technique doesn't revert to being a novice just because they're a little hot under the collar.

 tomjoad wrote:
Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

Well, if years of combat experience is the pivotal ingredient, all Eldar should probably be up to WS and BS 7 than. Necrons should probably be WS and BS 11 throughout.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

Well, if years of combat experience is the pivotal ingredient, all Eldar should probably be up to WS and BS 7 than. Necrons should probably be WS and BS 11 throughout.

There *are* Eldar with WS/BS like that, but most don't spend that much time fighting or even as a warrior. Necrons spent 99.999% of that time asleep doing nothing and largely have no ability to learn or gain experience

Why wouldn't Necrons have no ability to learn? And they fought a war at least as long as Horus-Heresy to 40K before they even went to sleep.

Still stupid. Some of the most dangerous World Eater Lords are the most recent converts. You'll find this outside the World Eaters too.

Ragnar Blackmane is noted to be a fighting prodigy going pretty much straight from Blood Claw to Wolf Lord (bypassing many Long Fangs with centuries of combat experience in the process).

Hell, you don't even have to go 40K.

Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

The notion that you "get more powerful with experience" as if combat was some stupid computer RPG where you'll just eventually "level up" if you just splatter enough opponents is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. It just doesn't work that way.


[edit]

And last but not least, they didn't fight 10.000 years straight. Novels like Soul Hunter pretty much show that even Marines that were around at the Heresy and fled to the Eye, have at most a decade or two of active combat per "Millenium" of time passed. The rest is most likely "lost" in Warp-time-distortions. Even if they fought in the Heresy, they might well have quite a bit less combat experience than a regular loyalist Marine with 2 or 3 hundred years of active duty behind him.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why wouldn't Necrons have no ability to learn? And they fought a war at least as long as Horus-Heresy to 40K before they even went to sleep.

Still stupid. Some of the most dangerous World Eater Lords are the most recent converts. You'll find this outside the World Eaters too.

Ragnar Blackmane is noted to be a fighting prodigy going pretty much straight from Blood Claw to Wolf Lord (bypassing many Long Fangs with centuries of combat experience in the process).

Hell, you don't even have to go 40K.

Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

The notion that you "get more powerful with experience" as if combat was some stupid computer RPG where you'll just eventually "level up" if you just splatter enough opponents is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. It just doesn't work that way.


[edit]

And last but not least, they didn't fight 10.000 years straight. Novels like Soul Hunter pretty much show that even Marines that were around at the Heresy and fled to the Eye, have at most a decade or two of active combat per "Millenium" of time passed. The rest is most likely "lost" in Warp-time-distortions. Even if they fought in the Heresy, they might well have quite a bit less combat experience than a regular loyalist Marine with 2 or 3 hundred years of active duty behind him.

Experience is one facet of combat skill, the same as motivation, physical strength, etc.

While the Traitor Legions ahven't been fighting for 10,000 years straight, Void Hunter states that 10th Company has been fighting for well over 200 years by their perception. Adding to this their combat experience from the Great Crusade (even for the legion most late to the fighting, the Alpha Legion, still a good few decades of bloody combat), plus the events of the Horus Heresy, leaves the Traitor Legionnaires with a significant body of combat experience. Add to that the fact that they have less diluted geneseed (though in many cases corrupted) than their Imperial counterparts, and they have some decent advantages behind them.

codemonkey wrote:


Experience is one facet of combat skill, the same as motivation, physical strength, etc.

While the Traitor Legions ahven't been fighting for 10,000 years straight, Void Hunter states that 10th Company has been fighting for well over 200 years by their perception. Adding to this their combat experience from the Great Crusade (even for the legion most late to the fighting, the Alpha Legion, still a good few decades of bloody combat), plus the events of the Horus Heresy, leaves the Traitor Legionnaires with a significant body of combat experience. Add to that the fact that they have less diluted geneseed (though in many cases corrupted) than their Imperial counterparts, and they have some decent advantages behind them.

Well. There're plenty of Marines with 200 or 300 years of combat experience around. And they do train far more effectively, rigorously and efficiently in a coherent and organized manner too. It's the same reason why professionally trained Spec-Ops are likely superiour fighters all else being equal than most tribal warriors with a random gun, even if the latter have been fighting decades on end since their earliest childhood in some Hellhole like Afghanistan or Somalia.

Either way.. if experience is one facet, than age, as well as the general wear and tear of combat both physcially and (for non-World Eaters) psychically is a negative factor.

Likewise, Combat experience is - at best - probably accumulated in a log-function. The first few battles you're in are going to provide you with an indefinitely steeper learning-curve than your fight No. 174.758 ever will.

Add to that the heroic/cincematic nature of the setting (e.g. Zhufor or Huron commanding Heresy-era legionaries, Ragnar commanding grizzled long-fangs, Calgar being far more skilled than the far more experienced Cassius, etc..), it seems quite safe to say that the importance of "experience", even if it may be a minor factor, is certainly far to negligible to have any bearing on stats in the actual game even if the stats were meant to simulate the fluff first and foremost (which they are not).

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why wouldn't Necrons have no ability to learn? And they fought a war at least as long as Horus-Heresy to 40K before they even went to sleep.

In their current state, most are automatons that simply respond to commands aside from the tiniest fraction of the ultra-elite. Prior to that, they had the lifespans of gnats.

Still stupid. Some of the most dangerous World Eater Lords are the most recent converts. You'll find this outside the World Eaters too.

I was just addressing why the Age thing didn't apply the same way given different circumstances is all, not saying it's the only explanation as to why they have WS5. Zhufor is also a mighty chaos lord, obviously exceptional even amongst his own kind.

Ragnar Blackmane is noted to be a fighting prodigy going pretty much straight from Blood Claw to Wolf Lord (bypassing many Long Fangs with centuries of combat experience in the process).

He's also noted on just about every page of his books as being exceptional/special/unique.

Hell, you don't even have to go 40K.

Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

Unlike our theoretical boxers here, Space Marine's bodies do not slow down/break down with age the way normal human bodies do.

And last but not least, they didn't fight 10.000 years straight. Novels like Soul Hunter pretty much show that even Marines that were around at the Heresy and fled to the Eye, have at most a decade or two of active combat per "Millenium" of time passed. The rest is most likely "lost" in Warp-time-distortions. Even if they fought in the Heresy, they might well have quite a bit less combat experience than a regular loyalist Marine with 2 or 3 hundred years of active duty behind him.

Soul Hunter really just applies to the marines in those books, not every Legionnaire sat in the warp for most of that, and most of such survivors have lots of additional combat experience during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy accomplishing deeds newer space marines can only dream of.

Well. It's nice that you choose to ignore all the many examples that clearly contradict the (far fetched from the start) notion that Space Marines just get "better" with time like some Diablo III character running on a bot-programme.

Do you have one (!) example from the fluff where it actually states Traitor Marine X bested Loyalist Marine Y because he had so much more combat experience from his years in the warp?

40K fluff just doesn't fly that way. Ragnar, Zhufor, etc.. are special because they are "named", but that doesn't mean the narrative "logic" that governs them in the fictional universe of 40K is any different for the "unnamed" guys. Have a watch at the recent Ultramarines movie on how green-behind-the-ears Ultramarines-newbs fare against "Black-Legion-Veterans-storming-en-masse". But yeah, I guess that also doesn't apply because it again contradicts what you would like to have the fluff to be (instead of what it actually is).

Every way you spin it. Every 40K novel, story or quote I am aware of (though I admit I don't know them all) point towards experience measured in "years" meaning, quite simply, nothing at all.

Codex CSM, p. 36-37: "The most experienced and dedicated CSM are known as Chosen...Squads of Chosen have many centuries of combat experience to draw upon."

Additionally, even loyalist chapters value Dreadnoughts not only for their obvious combat prowess, but because of their knowledge acquired from lifetimes of war. The more experience, the better and more honored (see Bjorn).

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well. It's nice that you choose to ignore all the many examples that clearly contradict the (far fetched from the start) notion that Space Marines just get "better" with time like some Diablo III character running on a bot-programme.

I'm just explaining the thinking here, you never provided any examples for me to counter, and I'm not going to spend my time looking through books for them for you right now. However, just as a general rule, the longer you do something, the better you get at it barring equipment (or bodily) breakdown. That applies to pretty much anything a sentient being engages in.

Do you have one (!) example from the fluff where it actually states Traitor Marine X bested Loyalist Marine Y because he had so much more combat experience from his years in the warp?

Off the top of my head? The second Night Lords book had plenty of that sort of thing.

40K fluff just doesn't fly that way. Ragnar, Zhufor, etc.. are special because they are "named", but that doesn't mean the narrative "logic" that governs them in the fictional universe of 40K is any different for the "unnamed" guys.

They're named because they're exceptional and out of the ordinary, because they rise above even what would normally be considered exceptional and to the level of legendary. Otherwise there'd be no need for special rules for them.

Have a watch at the recent Ultramarines movie on how green-behind-the-ears Ultramarines-newbs fare against "Black-Legion-Veterans-storming-en-masse". But yeah, I guess that also doesn't apply because it again contradicts what you would like to have the fluff to be (instead of what it actually is).

The one where they've got black legionnaire's running like Zulu hordes into Redcoat (sorry) Ultramarine firing lanes with bolter shells passing effortlessly through power armor as if it were no protection at all? Please, the entire thing, from story to depiction to visuals and voice acting bar a couple exceptions was awful. You won't find many people that laud it as a great example of 40k fluff, much less anything else. So yeah, I am going to say it doesn't apply in this case given the numerous hilarious issue with it as a whole. If you're having to bring up the Ultramarines movie as a fluff defense, you've hit the bottom of the barrel.

Mixing stats with fluff isn't going to pan out well.

Also while they may be creatures of anger/rage now, they still have all the training and heightened reflexes of any regular space marine if not better due to their frequent close quarter fighting. Also while they may be extremely aggressive they are not idiots, berserkers send themselves flying at their enemy due to a battle lust and eagerness to shed blood, not to die like idiots, they will do whatever is necessary to make sure they continue shedding blood and collecting skulls for their awesome god.

Also while they may have succumbed to rage and hatred remember that Khorne will draw his warriors from those are well versed in battle, most if not all of khorne's servants are proven warriors.

 Vaktathi wrote:
If you're having to bring up the Ultramarines movie as a fluff defense, you've hit the bottom of the barrel.

Sure the movie was abysmal. But it's still 40K fluff. It doesn't really matter... bottom of the barrel or top. I could lay out the entirety of 40K fluff and throw some random darts at it. What I hit will support my argument. At least I DID bring examples. If you can't even find a valid reference to contradict the bottom of the barrel... your evidence is poor indeed.

Khorne grants you a substantial amount of martial prowess if you serve him (Knowingly or unknowingly).

This isn't very fething hard to understand.

Oh, and:

"Hundreds of years of
battlefield experience as Scout, Brother Marine and Captain
have taught him every facet of war, trained him in the tools
of slaughter and honed his wits to the level of instinct."
- Space Marines 5e, page 52

Experience plays a role in the ability of a Marine. I have no idea why anyone would even make a vague attempt at arguing otherwise.

 Zweischneid wrote:


Put two boxers in the ring.. one young, hungry and ambitious and the other with 50 years of "experience" in the ring. See who wins.

The notion that you "get more powerful with experience" as if combat was some stupid computer RPG where you'll just eventually "level up" if you just splatter enough opponents is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. It just doesn't work that way.

It's not about gaining 'power' with experience, it's about gaining skill with practice. A person who has put more hours into doing something will be better at it than a person who has put in less. For example, someone who does jiu-jitsu four hours straight every day will accumulate skill faster at it than someone who only does one session a week.

Also, not sure if the boxer analogy can be applied to genetically engineered supermen who don't age and for whom fighting isn't so much a job as it is their entire existence.

I' think after 200-300 years of fighting combat experience becomes a straight line or goes into stagnation, for example - new x,y wannabe heroes often wipe the floor with CSM....why is that?

Experience like all things eventually reaches a point of diminishing returns.

But to say that an experienced individual does not have an advantage over a less experienced individual is ludicrous. Yes, sometimes a fighter can win with less experience by using sheer superior skill (see Anakin vs. Dooku in RotS). Overall though, experience means an awful lot in a fight.

Anakin beat Dooku because he was physically much stronger you asstard.

 somecallmeJack wrote:


It's not about gaining 'power' with experience, it's about gaining skill with practice. A person who has put more hours into doing something will be better at it than a person who has put in less. For example, someone who does jiu-jitsu four hours straight every day will accumulate skill faster at it than someone who only does one session a week.

Also, not sure if the boxer analogy can be applied to genetically engineered supermen who don't age and for whom fighting isn't so much a job as it is their entire existence.

Even if Space Marines don't age... the strain of Battle will wear down any body... even a supernatural one and especially one living in the Eye of Terror and not even cleaning his armour of old blood.

And as you said, the distinction is as much rigorous, disciplined training (which Loyalists do and Berzerkers hardly) as it is "combat experience". You have Afghan or Somalia militia who've been fighting since they are 5 years old, decades of experience in the field. But a well trained (and most likely much younger) US or UK Black Ops will still likely pwn them 1 vs. 1 all things being equal (and again, unique and "special" individuals might be the exception to the rule). Most martial arts and combat sports are full (!) of stories of some underdog or another taking down a champion, even in their prime, despite his greater experience, equally rigorous training, etc... .

And I acknowledged that experience does play a minor role. But certainly not the only one. And certainly not to the degree that it would make sense to have WS (which, btw, isn't the be-all-end-all of combat prowess in 40K either... LD, special rules, etc..) as a shortcut to "years in the field". If that were the case, GW would have called the stat "combat experience (CE)" instead.

Lots of examples such as Ragnar vs. Long Fangs or Cassius vs. Calgar clearly contradict such a mono-dimensional interpretation.

The bottom line is.. .for GW, WS (or BS or whatever) wlll "represent" whatever GW wants it to represent. For Eldar, it might reflect, years of combat experience. For Berzerkers, it might reflect Chaosy-infusion of martial mayham. For Space Marines it might represent rigorous training. For Tau it might represent advanced tech-gadget supporting their movements. For many named character models, it simply represents heroic awesomeness and plot armour. For Death Company, it probably represents them being flooded with their Primarch's final moments (thinking about it, they should probably have their Primarch's Weapon Skill if you'd go purely by background).

There are as many ways to "explain" a high or low Weapon or Ballistic Skill as there are factions and unit types in 40K.One of them might be combat experience. Others might justify their WS stat by other reasons. They are all equally viable and cherry-picking just one, such as experience, and using it comparatively across units, misses the abstraction inherent to the rules.

To go at it backwards and argue that unit X should have a higher/lower Weapons Skill than unit Y because one has more/less experience is a fallacy.Experience isn't the only or even the most important background-aspect that determines WS (or BS or any other stat).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Anakin beat Dooku because he was physically much stronger you asstard.

No.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Anakin beat Dooku because he was physically much stronger you asstard.

No.

I will add "HELL NO"

 tomjoad wrote:
Well, they are trained Space Marines with 10,000 years of constant active duty. Fluffwise, it would make more sense for ALL Chaos Marines to be WS and BS 5, with World Eaters getting bumped up to a 6. Thank of them like Death Company with 20 times as much experience.

Traitor Marines haven't really been on 10,000 years of active duty. For many of them, it's been only a few centuries since they were besieging the walls of Terra.

Remember that raw aggression also comes into place when considering WS5.

A highly skilled and trained, usually 10k years old, space marine on a berserker rage being able to outmatch a line or even a veteran loyalist marine is something not so far fetched imo.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
If you're having to bring up the Ultramarines movie as a fluff defense, you've hit the bottom of the barrel.

Sure the movie was abysmal. But it's still 40K fluff. It doesn't really matter... bottom of the barrel or top. I could lay out the entirety of 40K fluff and throw some random darts at it. What I hit will support my argument. At least I DID bring examples. If you can't even find a valid reference to contradict the bottom of the barrel... your evidence is poor indeed.

Well I suppose the fact that the fluff is generally biased towards the IoM in the first place on purpose helps make it worth searching, no? When one takes the side of the loyalists and makes a claim as such it's the same as saying the sky is blue while avoiding explaining how or how come some may not see it as blue.

40k canon, is a joke a best; A horrible joke along the lines of one about some tragic event presented moments after it. If any laugh at it, it will most likely be the one saying it himself and not those around them.

 n0t_u wrote:


Well I suppose the fact that the fluff is generally biased towards the IoM in the first place on purpose helps make it worth searching, no? When one takes the side of the loyalists and makes a claim as such it's the same as saying the sky is blue while avoiding explaining how or how come some may not see it as blue.

40k canon, is a joke a best; A horrible joke along the lines of one about some tragic event presented moments after it. If any laugh at it, it will most likely be the one saying it himself and not those around them.

Perhaps.

But than you're running rather quickly into a very paradoxical argument. On one hand, "you" (perhaps not you personally, if you get what I mean) claim that the stats of this or that unit are off because they don't reflect the background accurately. On the other hand, "you" claim the background is fubar and should be ignored.

You can't have one and the other. Either you try to make an argument for stats, mechanics, etc.. on the basis of the background. Than you should actually take the background that is given (and take all of it.. cherry-picking only the background "you like" to represent/support your personal bias is just as obviously a tautology ).

Or you say that background isn't worth it in the first place. But than you cannot really make an argument to change X or Y because of some background reason.

If the background is IoM biased and the models are supposed to "represent the fluff", than models and rules need to be IoM-biased too. Simples.

Which is why then you don't try to match the two together to allow the fluff a little more room to work with whereas the rules do their own thing and try to focus on balance.

Sort of jumped into this without looking too much.

Better question is why arent the KB like thousand sons and have ap3 "Berzerker weapons" If your smashing into people with the force of 1000 suns you probaly dont care about little tisseue paper power armour or flack armour. Hell even a cultist gets a save vs a berserker.

Explain that GW

Khorne is the God of martial prowess. Khorne Berserkers are disciples of Khorne. Khorne Berserkers get boosted martial prowess. 2+2=4.

Also, the World Eaters specialize in close combat to an extreme; while other marines are practicing bolter skills, Berserkers just keep swinging around their chainaxes. That has to count for something.

Loyalist Marines have hundreds of years of combat experience.

Khorne Bezerkers also have hundreds of years of combat experience, plus they are favored by the god of martial prowess.

Its fairly easy to see why they have WS5.



That said, I think some entries for loyalist marines need to change.

Terminators, command squads, and Veterans should be WS5. They are the elite warriors of the chapter.

Honor Guard, Chapter Masters, and Captains should be WS6.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne Bezerkers also have hundreds of years of combat experience

And yet, unaugmented humans are able to beat them in close combat. Sometimes with contemptuous ease.

Let's not get too deeply in to this marinewank thing, chaos or not. They're highly skilled, yes, but only the exceptional ones are exceptionally good. Just like every other close combat specialist in the game, really.

Most of the reason for them being WS5 is to differentiate them on tabletop. Tabletop stats do NOT reflect stats in lore except in the loosest sense.

I mean, if they did, more Space Marines would die every decade than are created. Power armor (no matter who wears it) is much better in the lore than it is on tabletop, and Marines don't get mortally wounded as often, either.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne Bezerkers also have hundreds of years of combat experience

And yet, unaugmented humans are able to beat them in close combat. Sometimes with contemptuous ease.

Well, those are the very best of humans, vs unnamed (no plot armor) Khorne Berserkers. Your average guardsman will lose 10/10 fights in melee combat with a Khorne Berserker, just like Ciaphas Cain would lose 10/10 fights against Kharn.

Actualy I'm fairly certain that, in a Cain book, Cain would win 10/10 fights against Kharn.

Ciaphas Cain is a protagonist, and thus has more plot armor than an antagonist.

Also no, a guardsman would not lose 100% of all fights agaisnt a berserker. That's just nonsensical wankery.

 Melissia wrote:
And yet, unaugmented humans are able to beat them in close combat. Sometimes with contemptuous ease.

That's an irrelevant point.

Any unaugmented human who can best a Berzerker in martial combat is a very exceptional human.

As for Cain vs. Kharn, I frankly highly doubt GW would ever let Kharn be fodderised in a Cain novel.

Is it truly so hard to believe that a Khornate Berzerker, a Marine who dedicates himself specifically to martial combat, as well as a powerful Chaos Marine serving Khorne (Who, after the Butcher's Nails are implanted, is said to be one with the Blood God), would be more martially capable than the average Marine?

WS isn't just a function of a combatant's finesse. Ferocity, speed, and unpredictability all factor into that score, things which berzerkers have in spades.

Which also helps explain why genestealers are WS 6.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Is it truly so hard to believe that a Khornate Berzerker [...] would be more martially capable than the average Marine?

No, it's not hard to believe.

But you misunderstand me-- I just don't consider Marines to be that much better than humans in terms of raw skill to begin with.

I personnaly find it funny then death company have a higher WS then Sang guard, the elite of the elite, should at least be the same but theres the direct comparsion for you, death company with their rage and just wanting to kill is higher WS then the elite guard unit

 Melissia wrote:
No, it's not hard to believe.

But you misunderstand me-- I just don't consider Marines to be that much better than humans in terms of raw skill to begin with.

Can you clarify on that point?

I find that, when responding to your post, I have trouble really assessing what it is you are trying to say.

 Grey Templar wrote:

That said, I think some entries for loyalist marines need to change.

Terminators, command squads, and Veterans should be WS5. They are the elite warriors of the chapter.

Honor Guard, Chapter Masters, and Captains should be WS6.

The problem with approaching it like that is that leads to an arms-race of ever-increasing WS.

Special characters need to be WS7 then? Being the Special Elite of the Elite of the Elite Space Marines.
Phoenix Lords WS8? Since they have actual 10,000 years of experience.

Eventually we run out of numbers

Also, high weapon skill counts for too little until you get to 9-10 (unless it's versus guardsmen or other WS3 units).

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, it's not hard to believe.

But you misunderstand me-- I just don't consider Marines to be that much better than humans in terms of raw skill to begin with.

Can you clarify on that point?

I find that, when responding to your post, I have trouble really assessing what it is you are trying to say.

What's so ambiguous about it?

A marine's enhancements just make the marines tougher and stronger-- enhancements that are incredibly useful for an elite soldier, I would not deny that, but they'll still be killed by a bolter shell or a good chainsword strike, like just about everyone else. None of the enhancements directly increase their skill or their ability to learn skills over any human's skill or ability to learn. So Marines, with their small numbers, high-end equipment, and superior biology, are best off using surprise attack, because in a straight up fight their advantages aren't quite as supreme as many fanboys would lead them to believe. Humans can (and do) train to equal Marines in terms of raw skill.

TL;DR, Marines are powerful, but they aren't gods. There's more to 40k than marinewank.

A marine does have quicker reflexs and their minds are conditioned to remain calm in battle(so they don't lose their capability for rational thought)

Of course the rational bit might not apply to Bezerkers.

To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, you can make two mistakes regarding Space Marines: overestimating how individually powerful they are and underestimating how individually powerful they are. Compared to normal humans, Marines are much, much tougher, stronger, faster, etc. The idea that a normal human could square off against a Marine is laughable, barring some bizarre circumstances.

IMO, bezerkers are trained to be a dueling champion, in the image of their Primarch Angron, who was the best gladiator on his adoptive world. His bezerkers were probably trained to fight in an Arena well, which is probably why on TT, they have to challenge.

If there is any fluff that would dispell my agrguments, i won't try to argue. I'm just relating the Primarchs combat specialty to how they are so good in CC.

They stated this in the old 5th edition rule book under weapon skill. They explain that it is an abstract representation of combat "prowess." For marines, their WS4 is from decades of training, as well as physical enhancements to their mental reaction times. For orks, WS4 represents their reckless abandon with which they fight. They spin, slice, smash, and will generally be fairly unpredictable in where their strikes will go, or how hard they hit.

Its an abstract rules set, so you actually have to use something called your "imagination" to figure out or explain why stats are what. The moment you start speaking in terms of arbitrary numbers, like "oh GW just bumped it up by one cause they wanted to, and they needed a reason to be taken" then you might as well stop playing the game. In the end, we're playing with toy soldiers, we imagine the fight we see in our heads. As soon as they just become plastic lumps on the table with numbers, we've lost the joy of the game.

 Melissia wrote:
What's so ambiguous about it?

A marine's enhancements just make the marines tougher and stronger-- enhancements that are incredibly useful for an elite soldier, I would not deny that, but they'll still be killed by a bolter shell or a good chainsword strike, like just about everyone else. None of the enhancements directly increase their skill or their ability to learn skills over any human's skill or ability to learn. So Marines, with their small numbers, high-end equipment, and superior biology, are best off using surprise attack, because in a straight up fight their advantages aren't quite as supreme as many fanboys would lead them to believe. Humans can (and do) train to equal Marines in terms of raw skill.

TL;DR, Marines are powerful, but they aren't gods. There's more to 40k than marinewank.

But the vast majority of guardsmen aren't as skilled as Marines are, and I frankly don't see how that could be argued.

Sure, some guardsmen or other humans could equal (Storm Troopers) or surpass a Marine (Yarrick comes to mind), but I'm talking about averages.

And on average, a Space Marine is more skilled than a human combatant, and on average, a Berzerker is more martially capable still.

 Manchu wrote:
The idea that a normal human could square off against a Marine is laughable

Sure, but only if you ignore the lore entirely.

I would go to estimate that there are more humans who can square off against space marines than there are space marines in the galaxy. But that's just simple statistics-- even if it's just one in a billion humans being skilled enough to take on a space marine, that still leaves more of them than there are space marines.

Furthermore, having more skill does not indicate you will win a fight 100% of the time anyway. A skilled space marine can still be killed by a lucky shot, or a desperate stab, from a common conscript. The comment I was responding to indicated that guardsmen would never even have that much, and therefor was silly and wrong.

If biological superiority and superior skill indicated a 100% victory chance like certain marine fanboys in this thread would claim, then Marines would have been wiped out a long time ago by Tyranids, Orks, and Eldar. But this is 40k. Weaker things overcome stronger things all the time-- the epic struggle makes for a great story, so they love using it.

Go fight a lion with your bare hands and then get back to me.

Using a few Black Library examples to prove that marines aren't much stronger than normal humans is silly, because the Black Library includes gems such as Brothers of the Snake.

Space Marine power level fluctuates, but it's clear that The Traitor's Hand is on the low end of estimations, while fluff like Brothers of the Snake place it on the high end.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Khorne Bezerkers also have hundreds of years of combat experience

And yet, unaugmented humans are able to beat them in close combat. Sometimes with contemptuous ease.

Cain narrated that he couldn't beat the Berzerker in close-combat; he was going to get tired out. Jurgen killed the World Eater by using his melta.

Also, Cain has more (plot) armor than a Land Raider.

 Melissia wrote:
Actualy I'm fairly certain that, in a Cain book, Cain would win 10/10 fights against Kharn.

Ciaphas Cain is a protagonist, and thus has more plot armor than an antagonist.

Also no, a guardsman would not lose 100% of all fights agaisnt a berserker. That's just nonsensical wankery.

...
Are you honestly saying that a guardsman can beat a Khorne Berserker? 1 on 1? That's nonsensical spank. There's absolutely no way that your average guardsman is going to beat a Khorne Berserker: the latter has more experience, armor that the guardsman can't pierce with his bayonet, and a weapon that will shred the guardsman if it makes contact. The only way that a guardsman can win this fight is if he's armed with a weapon like a plasma gun (not what I meant in my previous post, I was discussing an average guardsman), and starts far away from the Berserker.

 Manchu wrote:
Go fight a lion with your bare hands and then get back to me.

I'd rather just shoot him.

You know the old saying, "God made men, Colt made them equal." And that's pretty much how one can describe a boltgun in 40k lore. Even a lasgun is capable of killing a marine in one shot-- the laser flash-boiling the blood at the wound (as it would; any laser that is able to cauterize a wound is incredibly weak, and very much inferior to modern weapons) could easily take out both hearts, or destroy the brain, and do it in one shot.

Black Knight wrote:
Are you honestly saying that a guardsman can beat a Khorne Berserker?

Yes.

I am not saying it would happen often. But it would happen, and it wouldn't necessarily take a miracle. Space Marines are tough, but a lasbolt to the face is still going to kill them more likely than not-- nevermind a bolter or frag grenade. A marine, berserker or not, would kill the guardsman more often than not. But not every single time.

You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes. I'm not saying you could never beat a lion unarmed -- I'm saying the notion of you going out to pick a bareknuckle fist fight with a lion is laughably stupid.

A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

 Manchu wrote:
You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes.

No.

Stop making things up.

A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

 Melissia wrote:
Even a lasgun is capable of killing a marine in one shot

You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes. It's like assuming the lion will sit still for you to punch it to death. Yeah, a normal human has a tiny chance of killing an Astartes. Let's not turn the exception into the rule.

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes.

Please stop making things up.

Nothing I have said has suggested that. Only you have suggested it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You fighting a lion barehanded is like a normal, armed human fighting an unarmed Astartes.

No.

Yes.

If you're not going to bother with meaningful argument than neither will I.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You seem to think it will be easy to hit the Astartes.

Please stop making things up.

Nothing I have said has suggested that. Only you have suggested it.

You're talking about exceptional circumstances as if they were the norm. I can't expect you to understand my points but I think it's reasonable to expect you'll understand your own.

 Melissia wrote:
Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.

Why do you assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a Marine fanboy?

It may only need to get through once, but see, a Space Marine wouldn't just stand there and let them have lasers punched into their brain.

They are often described as being too fast for the human eye to follow when attacking, can avert las fire with a melee weapon, and close that distance quickly. Or shoot the Guardsman, and if both see eachother at the same time, the Marine will almost assuredly shoot first, having superhuman reaction-time (By IRL standards anyway, it must be said that in 40k, exceptional humans seem to be capable of exceptional physical feats at times. Noticeable examples including many Inquisitors deflecting projectiles with a blade, or Harker strangling a Ravener with his bicep).

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

Why would a Marine waste a bullet on a creature that poses zero threat to them and can be effortlessly dispatched in melee combat?

 Manchu wrote:
If you're not going to bother with meaningful argument than neither will I.

Your "argument", such as it is, is nothing more than blatant hyperbole and nonsensical exaggeration for the sake of aggrandizing Marines to the point of claiming that they are invincible and can never be beaten.

I had nothing meaningful to respond to in the first place. You will never get me to agree with the idea of marines as unbetable gods of battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are often described as being too fast for the human eye to follow when attacking

According to propaganda yes. I don't believe for an instant that it is actually true.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
can avert las fire with a melee weapon

No. They are not faster than the speed of light. Don't be inane.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why would a Marine waste a bullet on a creature that poses zero threat to them and can be effortlessly dispatched in melee combat?

By taht definition, why should marines carry boltguns to begin with? After all, you have already been arguing that they are invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
You're talking about exceptional circumstances as if they were the norm.

No, I'm not. Stop making things up.

In fact, I've specifically stated, time and again, that was I was talking about was not a frequent occurrence. I even went back and checked to make sure.

 Melissia wrote:
nothing more than blatant hyperbole and nonsensical exaggeration for the sake of aggrandizing Marines

You know we're talking about 40k right? This is the fluff not my own opinion. In that universe, Astartes are in fact all but invincible vis-à-vis normal humans. That's kind of why they were created in the first place. Frankly, I could care less about MelissiaHammer 40k, where Guardsman routinely one shot Space Marines. I'm here to talk about the 40k GW publishes.

 Manchu wrote:
This is the fluff not my own opinion.

Just the opposite, Manchu.

No, Space Marines are NOT "nigh-invincible" in the lore. They take heavy losses quite frequently in fact, and indeed humans-- "mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

They are powerful and skilled soldiers, who can turn the tide of battle with their presence alone. They are not, however, gods upon the battlefield.

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making things up

You need to take your own advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
"mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

But not on a one-for-one basis.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Stop making things up

You need to take your own advice.

And yet, you're still arguing against me when I state, quite simply, that Space Marines can in fact be killed by humans, however difficult or rare it might be.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
"mere" humans, if you must-- have wiped out entire chapters.

But not on a one-for-one basis.

Actually, I could argue that this is exactly what the Sisters of Battle did-- the Sororitas rarely deploy in numbers greater than a thousand in Games Workshop's current lore, after all. Assuming they ever give numbers in the first place, one thousand Sisters deploying at once is one of the largest Sororitas deployments in current GW lore. Outside of Armageddon or the defense of their homeworld, or possibly Cadia (all of which involved Sisters from multiple Orders; on San Leor, they utterly annihilated the Marines that attacked them, though I have no source on the number of Sisters and Marines that participated), I can't think of any others that might exceed that number.

Which is a stupid choice on GW's part, but be that as it may, your assertion that Sisters have never defeated Marines in a one to one battle is as baseless as the fake moon landing theory. There is at least one instance in BL lore of a Battle Sister defeating a Marine one on one (I seem to recall two); furthermore, Sisters were introduced in to 40k by wiping out a chapter of Space Marines anyway, with no indication that it was anything other than one to one (rogue trader was fun like that), and GW has gone on record stating that Space Marines regard Sisters as equals in combat-- not inferiors.

To re-iterate:

 Melissia wrote:
[Space Marines] are powerful and skilled soldiers, who can turn the tide of battle with their presence alone. They are not, however, gods upon the battlefield.

This apparently is a hugely controversial statement or something.

 Melissia wrote:
According to propaganda yes. I don't believe for an instant that it is actually true.

Deny the written fluff all you want, due to 40k's loose canon policy, that is your right, but that doesn't change what is written.

Oh, but want to know a neat fact? The speed required for an Inquisitor to deflect a bullet is far above the average human's perception.

No. They are not faster than the speed of light. Don't be inane.

By all means, if you have evidence that a lasgun fires a "laser" at the speed of light, I'd love to see it. I truly would.

As far as I'm concerned, lasguns are no more lasers than the blasters in Star Wars are.

Some Inquisitors, going by Eisenhorn as well as the old Inquisitor game (Official GW fluff I might add) the series was based on, are capable of such a feat. IIRC in Inquisitor Marines are also capable of it.

By taht definition, why should marines carry boltguns to begin with? After all, you have already been arguing that they are invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in close combat.

Interesting.

You chastise others for making assumptions and claims about your behavior/beliefs, yet are so quick to do so to others.

Please, do point out where I, the one who fully admitted that Marines can be bested by exceptional humans in close combat, argued they were invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in melee.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh, but want to know a neat fact? The speed required for an Inquisitor to deflect a bullet is far above the average human's perception.

Yes, it is. Since many Inquisitors are psychic, however, I let this go. The average Marine, however is not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By all means, if you have evidence that a lasgun fires a "laser" at the speed of light, I'd love to see it. I truly would.

What evidence do you have that lasguns fire star wars style "slow light"?

I don't think I've seen a single depiction, even in black library, that supports this.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Please, do point out where I, the one who fully admitted that Marines can be bested by exceptional humans in close combat, argued they were invulnerable, unkillable, and unbeatable in melee.

For one, you seemed to be trying to contradict me when I said that khornate berserkers would not win 100% of the time against guardsmen. I fully admit that I could have misread your intent, but that is certainly what the post was telling me.


edit: apologies for the crap editing. I screwed up my quote tags so many times...

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A lasgun isn't likely to penetrate the helmet of a Berzerker Melissia.

Lasguns fire in full auto, and it only needs to get through once.

I never said it would happen frequently. Only that it would happen. People who say that space marines never die are just being stuck up and arrogant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Space Marine would punch a lion's head into its torso.

I am just saying.

And an intelligent person would just shoot it, but we're talking about khorne berserkers, so...

That's an extremely unlikely scenario. That requires a guardsman to get repeated headshots on a target charging at him with superhuman speed. Unless he is a marvelous shot, he has almost no chance of doing this. He then has to get lucky enough that one of these shots will penetrate the Berserker's power armor. This is a 1 in a 1000 chance. Of course, the Khorne Berserker won't win every fight against the guardsman, as something unbelievably unlikely might happen. But that's like saying that Kaldor Draigo won't win every fight against a grot, because I can think of some unlikely way in which the grot might win.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, it is. Since many Inquisitors are psychic, however, I let this go. The average Marine, however is not.

Many Inquisitor's are psychic, but most are not.

And even though Eisenhorn was a psyker, he still could be tested by skilled human opponents, like this mercenary guy he fought on top of a train.

What evidence do you have that lasguns fire star wars style "slow light"?

I don't think I've seen a single depiction, even in black library, that supports this

I frankly never assume a laser blaster works like an actual laser unless we are given sufficient cause to believe so.

Lasguns clearly don't operate entirely in line with IRL physics, considering you can, you know, see it, lol.

But part of the reason is that they have been blocked after they've been fired.

For one, you seemed to be trying to contradict me when I said that khornate berserkers would not win 100% of the time against guardsmen. I fully admit that I could have misread your intent, but that is certainly what the post was telling me.


edit: apologies for the crap editing. I screwed up my quotes so many times...

There are too many variables to say a Berzerker would win 100% of the time against a guardsman, even in melee (Luck plays a factor, for one, which is the ultimate variable), but against the average guardsman, I think the fight is tilted very heavily in the Berzerker's favor. Against a guy like Yarrick or Straken though? The average Berzerker would lose more times than not (Please don't bring Kharn into this, just as a request).

And yeah, at range, a guardsman would have a better chance, especially depending on the kind of weapon the guardsman is packing, a hellgun (feth hot shot lasguns), even wielded by a normal guardsman (I am speaking theoretically here, I can't imagine Guardsmen using a hellgun), is likely to at least incapacitate the Berzerker before he can close a signifigant enough distance.

Wait, a psyker fighting a mercenary on top of a train?

Hm. Sounds like a bad anime.

Abnett inserts a lot of action-movie cliches into his writing admittedly, yeah.

 Melissia wrote:
And yet, you're still arguing against me when I state, quite simply, that Space Marines can in fact be killed by humans, however difficult or rare it might be.

Oh really?

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, a normal human has a tiny chance of killing an Astartes. Let's not turn the exception into the rule.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assuming they ever give numbers in the first place, one thousand Sisters deploying at once is one of the largest Sororitas deployments in current GW lore.

"Stop making things up."

Prove me wrong. The largest stated deployment in C:WH was 1000 Sisters. Aside from that, the only ones that I can think of that might exceed that I mentioned above. Your assertion that they deploy in huge numbers contradicts GW's lore, which puts entire Major Orders as often numbering in the thousands-- and they're almost never deployed all at once, because half of each major order is stationed on one of their two homeworlds of Terra and Ophelia. Perhaps you have numbers you would like to use to prove that Sisters deploy in huge, never before seen numbers?

As for the rest, in order: you did make that assertion (I went back and checked even), my point was perfectly valid and you have yet to disprove it, and the Games Workshop website. To be specific: "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion." Not all Astartes chapters have the same worldview about anything, but on the whole, Sororitas and Astartes respect eachothers' combat prowess, and for good reason.

If you don't have anything of value to add, I think that's about all I'm going to say to you.

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have anything of value to add

I'm still waiting for this comprehensive list of orders of battle for all actions in which the Sisters have been deployed described in GW-published sources ... and I think I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
If you don't have anything of value to add

I'm still waiting for this comprehensive list of orders of battle for all actions in which the Sisters have been deployed described in GW-published sources ... and I think I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist.

Don't hold your breath. You'll suffocate.

1000 Sisters were deployed to conquer 100 worlds in C:WH. There is no evidence that this is a routine, minor force of Sisters, or any evidence that there are numerous other battles where this number is exceeded. Certainly no evidence that you are capable of providing. Indeed, according to C:WH, page 11, 1000 Sisters is the largest subdivision of Sisters aside from the major orders themselves. A preceptory holds UP TO 1000 Sisters, led by a Canoness Preceptor; the Canoness Commander leads commandery of up to 200 Sisters in comparison, while a palatine or canoness (with no title)s command a mission of a few dozen Sisters. Missions and commanderys are more common, indeed, a Commandery is stated to be a company-level subdivision for Sisters.

A preceptory is stated to be the largest force that an Order is ever likely to field. It's up to 1000 Sisters. Perhaps you have some source that contradicts this? I'm reading from the book here and I see nothing that supports your assertion.

Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

 Manchu wrote:
Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

Regardless, the quote:

C:WH pg11 wrote:The term [Preceptory] is also used to define the largest organizational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1000 Battle Sisters cloistered together at one location.

 Melissia wrote:
That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

By all means, let me know what you think your point is. You don't have any actual numbers to show that Sisters or any other normal humans fight and triumph over SM on a one-to-one basis. What you're up against is a huge amount of canon that SM are easily superior combatants relative to normal humans.

Nor do you, ergo, your assertions are baseless. At least I have SOMETHING to correlate with what I said. You have nothing.

What? As I just said, you are up against the balance of 40k publications indicating that SM are superior combatants to normal humans in every way (save only numbers). There is no dearth of evidence for that point.

Oh, what a surprise, someone stuck in an endless argument with Melissia. Space Marines suck, and Sisters are better at everything. There, the end, everyone kiss and make up.

The weirdest part is Sisters are my favorite faction!

Right, but being able to stay objective despite personal preferences is obviously impossible for some, so why bother? Seriously... this happens in pretty much every thread involving Space Marines or Sisters.

Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

 Melissia wrote:
Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths, while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

Oh crap, now I'm being drawn into the whirlpool too! I'm sorry, I'm sorry! You're absolutely right in whatever point it is you're making.

Moving on...

 Omegus wrote:
It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths

No, I state their strengths. In fact, I've specifically stated their strengths and how they're powerful warriors/soldiers numerous times IN THIS VERY THREAD. But people refuse to actually read, and so they get offended over nothing.

Indeed, this entire conversation with me basically started over a few people (who are no longer even participating in the discussion) stating that Marines unequivocally will win 100% of all fights against a Guardsman, not even accounting for purely lucky shots.

But apparently me saying that "no, Marines would not win 100% of the time" is bashing Space Marines.

I wish I was surprised at people being offended by such an assertion. But I'm not. This is a common reaction.

 Omegus wrote:
while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

I have not once, in 22,000+ posts, stated that Sisters of Battle are unbeatable or unparalleled.

Black Knight wrote:

That's an extremely unlikely scenario. That requires a guardsman to get repeated headshots on a target charging at him with superhuman speed. Unless he is a marvelous shot, he has almost no chance of doing this. He then has to get lucky enough that one of these shots will penetrate the Berserker's power armor. This is a 1 in a 1000 chance. Of course, the Khorne Berserker won't win every fight against the guardsman, as something unbelievably unlikely might happen. But that's like saying that Kaldor Draigo won't win every fight against a grot, because I can think of some unlikely way in which the grot might win.

Well guardsmen outnumber the Zerkers some million, maybe more to one, so they'll be fine, really.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Would you mind posting the actual quote where C:WH unequivocally states the largest deployment of Sisters is 1000?

That's not what I said, nor was it what I was arguing, and you know it.

Regardless, the quote:

C:WH pg11 wrote:The term [Preceptory] is also used to define the largest organizational unit an Order is ever likely to field, numbering up to 1000 Battle Sisters cloistered together at one location.

I know its not real numbers but the Sisters deploy three Orders when they attack the Fang.

But on the point of humans beating Astartes. In Outcast Dead the human swordsmen defeats the World Eater Sgt who has the Butcher's Nails. The same one that killed a Custode with his bare hands. He however was not armored and still recovering from the beating he took from a Thunder Warrior. But was inpressed enough by the Swordsmen that he pulled the sword out of his body and handed it back to him.

That being said it is very much the exception for such events to happen. For almost all comparible catagories, an Astartes might as well be an underfeatible god of war when fighting normal humans 1v1.

Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

GW is stupid regarding the number of Sisters in the lore, which makes these kinds of discussions rather fruitless, but the weight of the lore indicates Sisters rarely deploy in numbers greater than the Astartes deploy-- none of the numbers really indicate that the Sisters are that large of an organization, even though that makes no logical sense given their duties to the Imperium and is really just kind of stupid.

Then again, GW can't even agree with itself on how many major orders there are and how many Sisters are in them, so meh.

 Omegus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Omegus, if you want to talk about my posts, try actually reading them first.

I did not say Space Marines suck in this thread. Not once.

It was hyperbole to make a point. You consistently undermine their strengths, while touting the Sisters as unparalleled.

Oh crap, now I'm being drawn into the whirlpool too! I'm sorry, I'm sorry! You're absolutely right in whatever point it is you're making.

Moving on...

I wish I could exalt this post more than once.

edit: Delete. This is getting way too off topic.

 Melissia wrote:
Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

KK then Sister's fluff. In their second ed codex there is the story of Cardinal Bucharis. Who attacks the Fang with the support of an entire Segmentum Fleet and ground forces of that Segmentum's planets. With all of those forces he was unable to win. So the Sisters deploying anything less would be an act of futility that would not be undertaken. Three full orders sounds like to many Sisters??? That's because of the task at hand. I would estimate that when the Sisters were sent to eliminate a Space Marine chapter that they would have wanted to outnumber them. Not just because the SMs are better warriors but because you never want to go into a siege on equal terms with those being sieged. The fact that the Sisters pulled out after only three weeks of fighting shows that they brought to few troops and support to actively stand a chance against the defences of the Fang.

A normal SM chapter is 1,000 marines so sending in 3,000 Sisters would be about right. 3 to 1 because you want at least that ratio when you lay siege to a defended target. That's just against a normal SM Chapter. If their deployment was only 3,000 Sisters against a larger then normal chapter like the SWs then it is understandable why they pulled out so quikly.

The important thing to note is that using this level/numbers of Sisters deployed is assuming that Sisters are considered 1v1 against SMs. Which we know to not be true. Which in turn means that if you believe the fluff about the Sisters purging SM chapters. Then you must admit that they are capable of deploying Sisters well beyond the 1,000 Sisters mark.

 Melissia wrote:
edit: Delete. This is getting way too off topic.

It is and its not. Any comparison of non-gene enhanced warriors taking on SMs (even better if they were Khorne Bezerkers). Adds to the context why the Khorne Bezerkers deserve WS5 over their WS4 counterparts. Comparing Sisters who have almost the same gear as a SM against the SWs who had WS5 in second ed gives us the best point of view of highely trained well equiped soldiers (SoBs) taking on The closest thing we have to a WS5 equivalent foe (SWs).

We can look at Battle of the Fang and the 2nd ed Sister codex to see that the SWs would not have just sat in the Fang and endured the siege. But instead would have launch counter attacks against the invaders. We can also look at the 5th ed SW codex and see that the non-gene enhanced Space Marine equivalent forcd pulled out after only 3 weeks of fighting. Which suggest that the commander knew that they had no hope of winnng the engagement.

From the best information we have. We can conclude that a Sister of Battle is not capable of defeating a SW 1v1 in melee on average. Maybe not even with an advantage of upto 3 to 1 when fighting on the SW's terms. We can also conclude that with the reduction of the SW's WS and the increase of the Khrone Bezerker's; that your average SW is not as effective in melee as your average Khorne Bezerker. Which in turn means that your average SoB would lose to the average Khorne Bezerker fairly consistantly.

That does not mean that a Khorne Bezerker should be conisdered unkillable by a Sister in melee. Only that the Khorne bezerker would have a consistant advantage which is supported by the rules. Higher WS, S, T, I and more attacks demonstrate this rather well. Just as the higher WS, S on the charge and attacks on the charge would give the Khorne Bezerker an advantage against an average Space Wolf. Which puts the Khrone Bezerker's skill on par with the most highely trained units of the Grey Knights.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Aside from the fact that this is space wolf lore, and thus hard to take seriously, it couldn't have been three entire Orders unless it's minor orders (major Orders must keep half their number on ophelia and terra), which themselves haven't been described as having thousands of sisters in them-- indeed, minor Orders are often described as a few dozen Sisters guarding a specific shrine or world.

KK then Sister's fluff. In their second ed codex there is the story of Cardinal Bucharis. Who attacks the Fang with the support of an entire Segmentum Fleet and ground forces of that Segmentum's planets. With all of those forces he was unable to win.

No Space Wolf lore can really be taken seriously, regardless of edition, but especially if it's from 2nd. The whole game was far more comic-booky back then (see Orks), and that was when Andy Chambers was a lead designer and had such a hard-on for Space Wolves, he even cut his hair like them. They are the original Mary Sue Space Marines +1. There is no way a single chapter should be able to fight off an entire Segmentum fleet, especially considering their dearth of personnel due to recruiting all their Astartes and vassals from a low-population deathworld with a very low technology level.

That being said, the average Astartes from any chapter should stomp an average Sister 10 times out of 10. They may be Nuns with Guns and Tig Ol' Biddies, but they are still only human.

Don't they have butcher's nails?