"In the grim darkness of the far future... there is only war"

I was reading about tau on warhammer wiki the other day, and noticed they where really nice. Almost too nice. The always try to come up with a diplomatic solution, and they are nice to the their prisioners. They contradict the quote above and treat everyone fairly.

They seem a little to good for the hopeles, dark and evil 41st millenium.

This ain't a troll post by the way, and I'm sorry if I affend anyone.

PS. Sorry bout bad spelling doing this on bus with phone.

On the surface yes. However, the Tau have a dark side.

The Etherial's are essentially mind controlling the Tau using pheremones.

Plus the Tau sterilize the bulk of planetary populations they take over by force, with only those loyal to the Tau Empire exempted.

They're also fascists that offer you a choice, join them peacefully or join them by force. This is exactly the option the Imperium offers to lost human colonies. It has also been hinted that ethereals possess mind control abilities and that is how they can convert individuals to serve the Greater Good.

In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos. They're the arrogant, ignorant upstart race that, out of ignorance, is dividing the Imperium's defensive efforts.

By modern standards, Tau are evil. It's a society with no freedom, and no hope. You'll never advance beyond your caste (determined by your birth) and your chosen occupation (determined by your Ethereal masters).

In any other scifi universe the Tau would be the bad guys. They're an aggressive expansionist empire with a rigid caste system, and the only things that make them "good" by 40k's standards is that they aren't incredibly stupid and self destructive all the time. They use technology efficiently to kill you, they don't bother with superstition about "gods" or "honor" or any of that nonsense as they kill you, and they offer you the chance to submit entirely to their rule before they kill you.

So yeah, I'd say the Tau are pretty much perfect for 40k's token "semi-decent faction".

Peregrine wrote:In any other scifi universe the Tau would be the bad guys. They're an aggressive expansionist empire with a rigid caste system, and the only things that make them "good" by 40k's standards is that they aren't incredibly stupid and self destructive all the time. They use technology efficiently to kill you, they don't bother with superstition about "gods" or "honor" or any of that nonsense as they kill you, and they offer you the chance to submit entirely to their rule before they kill you.

So yeah, I'd say the Tau are pretty much perfect for 40k's token "semi-decent faction".

In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

 Peregrine wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

Peregrine wrote:

GreyHamster wrote:In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

You can't kill Chaos, unless you somehow lobotomize every being that feels emotion. As long as there's emotion, there's Chaos.

That said, Chaos could be contained using crazy ass technology. And individual Daemons (and Gods probably) can be killed too. But Chaos will always be there, lurking. And if the Tau do manage to get rid of it, they'll always need to be on guard.

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

No, they're just more powerful than anyone else right now. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to do so once the Tau, free of idiotic superstition about science and engineering, advance to the point that a single gun drone can conquer the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.

1) I doubt that. Progress usually ends badly in 40k. Look at the Necrons, the Eldar, or Mankind. Progress always ends badly.

2) I'm not talking about the Machine God (which is faaaaake), I'm talking about the goddamn Chaos Gods.

Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
In addition, they are the naive young race with absolutely no comprehension of chaos.

Or, from a certain point of view, the race with the best comprehension of chaos. They aren't blinded by superstition where the most powerful space wizards are declared "gods", they simply plot the most efficient way of killing chaos forever.

Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

That's one of the dark jokes of 40k, an atheistic movement unifies humanity, only to find there are actual gods and daemons, literally born from mortal minds and negative emotions. Tau don't understand the malign nature of the ancient intelligences of the warp and think that negotiation and control ARE possible. THAT is one of the primary reasons they are dangerous. They think it's possible to coexist with things that want to destroy reality.

 Grey Templar wrote:

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it.

Necrons would like to have a word with you.

back to OP. No, I don't believe the Tau are too good for 40k. They're an amusing way for us to see a government that we would normally see as oppressive as a respectable and even a hopeful option under the circumstances of 40k.

Back on topic...
I think Tau are actually one of the darker armies. The whole outward appearance contrasted with their actual actions and motives. They will only let you join if you completely submit to the will of the etherials. If you refuse to join, they will systematically wipe you out and take everything. That coupled with the rumors of mind control and other problems makes the Tau a perfect army for the grimdark universe.
The hand with the honey is often the one with the trap.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Except its not people claiming to be gods. They ARE gods. Real freakin gods. And they arn't friendly gods.

No, they're just more powerful than anyone else right now. It remains to be seen whether they will continue to do so once the Tau, free of idiotic superstition about science and engineering, advance to the point that a single gun drone can conquer the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

You know what, for as much as you bash the tau game wise i couldnt help but laugh at this post! I completely agree, with as "fast" as the tau have discovered new tech it shouldnt be very long before they are the top race in the universe simply on tech alone, and yes they might be commies that give you no choice but they work together!!! unlinke chaos and regular marines and the imperium as a whole along with orks and light/dark eldar who are all fighting each other while trying to fighte everyone else too. The tau have been there, done that and moved past it. Thats what makes me think they will be on top.

The thing that makes the Tau "not fit" in the grimdarkiness of 40k in some peoples minds is that they actually try to acheive their ends in ways other than shooting holes in things.

they will buy, negotiate, propaganda , and coherce someone to do what they need, but always have the option of shooting holes in them, they use the least costly and most effective ( in their opinion) ways first and resort to violence when needed.

No they do not shy away from killing their enemies, nor do they shy away from making allies..what ever works to acheive the mission.

they don't do things like humans or the Imperium does..because they are not humans or the Imperium.

They are a alternate shade of grey in the sometimes way to dark 40k setting, and serve to show off how truly dark the likes of Dark eldar, Chaos truly are.

and they appeal to alot of people, in the same way that alot of 40k factions appeal or dont to each person in this game...if everything is dark evil and genocidal..it kinda waters down the evil.

so yes they fit..thats why they are in it, variety is the spice of life.

Well, the Imperium can buy, negotiate, propaganda, and coherce for what they need, it's just that the shoot it full of holes is a much more alluring option.

And the only one the Dogma of the imperium endorses..kill it with bombs...kill it with fire, exterminatus etc etc, pretty much the modus op for all the races in 40k up until Tau fluff, but the FFG books have broadened it a bit. but meh there is no canon and all is equal.

There is one race in the 40k universe that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. Let's keep this niche for gamers, who don't think that crazy raging mass murderers are the coolest thing on earth.

 Kroothawk wrote:
There is one race in the 40k universe that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. Let's keep this niche for gamers, who don't think that crazy raging mass murderers are the coolest thing on earth.

Ditto, this is my idea on the Tau. They aren't religious zealots/fanatics (Imperials, Chaos, Eldar and Dark Eldar) or things that want to kill everything (Ork, Tyranids, Necrons) The Tau actually want to build up a race.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

Actually necrons would love a word with you, they were sealing off the Warp with their own tech before.

For all they really know, the Warp is just a different alien dimension, with the beings inhabiting it simply being a different sort of alien born from the emotions of another galaxy, based around the energies and laws of that universe, with most of our knowledge seen through Imperial scholars, biased researchers, and beings with no desire to actually Study it because of some ancient rites and laws forbidding those that do with death, with Chaos marines not giving to much of a damn cept for those who wish to take the warp to improve their lives. (Q'Sal have actually managed to create a far better place through Warp Science and Warp Technology, even as they live almost like Tzeentchian Mages plotting!)

There ARE far more beings in the warp than just the chaos gods, there's entire races such as the Enslavers, the Vampyres, astral Spectres, and some psych race.

Not to mention the warp itself didn't grow till the Old Ones messed around with the warp in their war with the Necrotyr, because it certainly wasn't big, bad, or effective during the period of that war till the Old Ones screwed up.

To put it simply, there is much to know, but yet so much truly unknown.

Necrons don't want to kill everything. Just most things.

The Tau are still fairly new to the galactic scene. Give them a few more millennia and they'll get their own version of the Horus Herresies or some such. Be interesting to see if they would look half as good as the imperium after that.

I think the Necrons veiw the universe as thier own gaming table, even have their own cheat codes, and a lite bright room to do resets.

Necrons the gamer nerds of 40k

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Necrons don't want to kill everything. Just most things.

The Tau are still fairly new to the galactic scene. Give them a few more millennia and they'll get their own version of the Horus Herresies or some such. Be interesting to see if they would look half as good as the imperium after that.

Yeah see, this is the problem most people have with them. There is no great backstory for them, they were monkeys, the Aun (Ethereals) came, and now they are smarter monkeys in space. The closest thing to a controversy is the Farsight enclaves, which don't even have a great background. I think we need a newer and more expanded codex and more people might like them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

They exist in a dimension of pure madness. The laws of physics(the basis of Technology) do not apply.

You can seal the Warp away, but you must use things of the warp to do it. Such as creating psychic contructs like the Webway.


The Tau will NEVER be able to do that so long as they remain psychic blunts.

Actually necrons would love a word with you, they were sealing off the Warp with their own tech before.

For all they really know, the Warp is just a different alien dimension, with the beings inhabiting it simply being a different sort of alien born from the emotions of another galaxy, based around the energies and laws of that universe, with most of our knowledge seen through Imperial scholars, biased researchers, and beings with no desire to actually Study it because of some ancient rites and laws forbidding those that do with death, with Chaos marines not giving to much of a damn cept for those who wish to take the warp to improve their lives. (Q'Sal have actually managed to create a far better place through Warp Science and Warp Technology, even as they live almost like Tzeentchian Mages plotting!)

There ARE far more beings in the warp than just the chaos gods, there's entire races such as the Enslavers, the Vampyres, astral Spectres, and some psych race.

Not to mention the warp itself didn't grow till the Old Ones messed around with the warp in their war with the Necrotyr, because it certainly wasn't big, bad, or effective during the period of that war till the Old Ones screwed up.

To put it simply, there is much to know, but yet so much truly unknown.

The warp operates by its own set of rules, much of those akin to "magic" rules such as the law of contagion (i.e. like attracts like), True Names, etc... However in certain cases the warp does interact with reality in what seems a purely technological way such as via warp engines, Gellar fields, and the Necron artifacts and null matrices. Almost all of these involve either punching a breach in reality to the warp or warding against the warp. To actually channel and use the energies of the warp seems to require an active warp presence (i.e. have some level of psychic ability), and that is something the Necrons do not have.

But yes, in a nutshell, the warp is like a separate parallel universe with its own aliens and indigenous inhabitants. However the most significant and dangerous inhabitants are the Chaos gods and their spin-off daemons, and these entities are reliant upon being fed by the energies of the inhabitants of realspace. The gods are just energy beings grown mighty on the vast fodder of human souls and emotions over thousands of years. Starve them of input, and they will weaken or die, just as the Eldar gods did when the Eldar turned to decadence instead of their traditional pantheon.

The more mechanistic or rational way the Tau attempt to view the warp has some similarities to the Necrons' view of the world.

...The Tau are an Orwellian dystopia with the added benefit of being mind-controlled by the powerful elite. The fact that they tell you they're nice and shiny and accepting and willing to let you into their little club just adds to the creepiness.

I'm kind of confused on a lot of issues. People keep describing Tau life as if it's something robotic and scripted. I've never really seen any material describing what Tau are like outside of combat. The codex gives a brief mention of one Tau world where the citizens tend to relax and put more time into their personal hobbies than the rest of the empire.

But morality isn't an aboslute either. In a universe where the "good guys" literally want to murder every other species, mutation, and nonbeliever it's hard to actually gauge where morality fits in. On a galactic scale they're doing what they believe is necessary to maintain order, fight off corruption/heresy, and defend from the alien menace.

I think a lot of issues come from the lack of source material for Tau. I've only heard one mention of what color Tau blood is and other forums argue over whether Tau females have breasts (Nerds argue the important details first). But people can claim any "evil" the Tau have and it will reflect on the IoM.

Strict caste breeding? The Imperium has a huge class system. Born into poverty? Enjoy the stay.

Forced to fight? It's a time of galactic war. Who isn't being trained to defend the home front.

Intolerant of those willing to join? The IoM made plenty of alien races extinct. And this was back before the Emp took the long sit on the Golden Comode, before they became "lost"

Morality has a lot to do with the culture. Tau society is raised to believe that they are all important and that they are doing their part to advance their empire. It's not really brainwashing, it's just enforcing a very positive outlook with positive motivation. Issues on this are like saying that Motivational Speakers are like Hitler because they're trying to get you motivated towards a common goal and therefore bad.

Morally they don't seem bad. The only real source of non-propaganda are hints from the DOW games, which I don't believe are cannon or even highly regarded. Didn't that game also have Khornate Sorcerors?

Are the Tau Naive? No. They aren't trying to reason with Tyranids because they realized they are dicks. Do they mind control races? The only solid mention of this is from the Communion Helm of the Vespid. But again it's not really proof. The Helm could just as easily be a translator for the Vespid, and they really dig the message.

Will the Tau fall from grace? Well the IoM did and the Eldar fell so hard the resulting impact ripped a hole in the universe, killed/broke one of their gods, and then brought the god of rape into existence. How bad could it be for the Tau?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why do people keep stating that ethereals mind control Tau like it's a fact? It's suggested in the book, but it's a GW suggestion. They also suggest the Emperor is fading and could be reborn as a dark god or as a god of order. They suggest that Necrons have a frozen primarch. That something is chasing the Nids.

And that would be one hell of a psychich ability to span across planets. They don't mention how spread out ethereals are, but I'm guessing they can't constantly be around to influence people.

And Farsight's enclave doesn't prove that Tau will stray from Greater Good without Ethereal influence. His story isn't clearly explained and sounds more like a case of a loose cannon cop with nothing to lose.

I think some of the tau fluff is a little too nice nice. Try reading their battlefleet book without rolling your eyes.

Grey Templar wrote:On the surface yes. However, the Tau have a dark side.
The Etherial's are essentially mind controlling the Tau using pheremones.
Plus the Tau sterilize the bulk of planetary populations they take over by force, with only those loyal to the Tau Empire exempted.

Admittedly, that is only so far as some non-GW sources claim, and we all know how very much they may deviate from studio vision.
That's not to say that those individual authors' interpretation is not compatible with what the studio itself has churned out (in fact it may fit in quite well) - I'm just cautioning against taking that as gospel, as so many fans are prone to when talking about fluff.

Personally, I very much prefer the dark side of the Tau simply being lots of propaganda and a rigid caste system. You don't need cliché mind control to create a fascist dictatorship. The real world has sufficient examples for how that works simply by influencing the people via education and media, and I think that's actually somewhat more "elegant" and reasonable, insofar as such terms can be applied to a setting like this.

But yeah, preferences.

Grey Templar wrote:Sorry Peregrine, the Chaos Gods really are Gods.

How would you define "god"?
If you think about it, there's nothing supernatural about the Chaos Gods - they exist because of how the Warp works in conjunction with the feelings of beings, and because of how telepathy works in the setting. It would even be possible to analyze all of that with various formula, such as when a Chaos "God" is created, how much emotion it takes to sustain them, and how it would react to outside stimuli.

Of course, if you just say that a "god" is defined as a very powerful being whose capabilities are utterly alien to normal people, then that is true - in the same way as a rank-and-file Space Marine would be seen as a god by some backwater native who has never seen power armour and plasma guns in his life.

Tau have a dark side but overall are significantly better then any faction in 40k and I think that works out fine, you can have a more shade of grey faction then everyone being ULTRA GRIMDARK.

 Kroothawk wrote:
There is one race in the 40k universe that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. Let's keep this niche for gamers, who don't think that crazy raging mass murderers are the coolest thing on earth.

By the gods! What do you mean mass murder and wanton slaugther is not a nice thing? But to answer the OP. Tau are the one race I wish GW would discontinue, it dose not belong in 40k nor dose their shades of grey either, Its a reason why Tau player are not welcome in my local club.

 Trondheim wrote:
By the gods! What do you mean mass murder and wanton slaugther is not a nice thing? But to answer the OP. Tau are the one race I wish GW would discontinue, it dose not belong in 40k nor dose their shades of grey either, Its a reason why Tau player are not welcome in my local club.

I hate this mentality so bad. It really sounds terrible when you don't welcome a person into the club because of the FLUFF made by the SAME COMPANY that they have NO CONTROL OVER for an army they like to play.

To me it sounds like "LOL! I'm so edgy I cut my razor while shaving! I need everything in my game to be dark and terrible. I play slaughter marines, they eat orphan's faces for breakfast."

Who wouldn't welcome the comedic straight man to a game filled up with armies of rapists (Dark Eldar), Gods/Daemons of Rape (Slaanesh), and mass murderers (ANYONE, like literally every faction on an hourly basis.)

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Why do people keep stating that ethereals mind control Tau like it's a fact? It's suggested in the book, but it's a GW suggestion. They also suggest the Emperor is fading and could be reborn as a dark god or as a god of order. They suggest that Necrons have a frozen primarch. That something is chasing the Nids.

And that would be one hell of a psychich ability to span across planets. They don't mention how spread out ethereals are, but I'm guessing they can't constantly be around to influence people.

And Farsight's enclave doesn't prove that Tau will stray from Greater Good without Ethereal influence. His story isn't clearly explained and sounds more like a case of a loose cannon cop with nothing to lose.

The Tau 'Mind Control' ability isn't psionic in nature. It was stated in the original Codex: Tau, and reinforced in the Fire Warrior novelisation, which is as canon as any Black Library, that the Ethereals use pheromones (IE, natural chemical markers detected nasally that go straight to the subconcious) to instil certain emotions (emotional calmness, I believe) and obedience in nearby Tau. Collquially, players refer to this as "mind control", but it's not psychic or 100% complete in any way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
By the gods! What do you mean mass murder and wanton slaugther is not a nice thing? But to answer the OP. Tau are the one race I wish GW would discontinue, it dose not belong in 40k nor dose their shades of grey either, Its a reason why Tau player are not welcome in my local club.

I hate this mentality so bad. It really sounds terrible when you don't welcome a person into the club because of the FLUFF made by the SAME COMPANY that they have NO CONTROL OVER for an army they like to play.

To me it sounds like "LOL! I'm so edgy I cut my razor while shaving! I need everything in my game to be dark and terrible. I play slaughter marines, they eat orphan's faces for breakfast."

Who wouldn't welcome the comedic straight man to a game filled up with armies of rapists (Dark Eldar), Gods/Daemons of Rape (Slaanesh), and mass murderers (ANYONE, like literally every faction on an hourly basis.)

Orks aren't mass murderers. They're just playing.

Orks use body parts from smaller Orks as currency!!!

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
By the gods! What do you mean mass murder and wanton slaugther is not a nice thing? But to answer the OP. Tau are the one race I wish GW would discontinue, it dose not belong in 40k nor dose their shades of grey either, Its a reason why Tau player are not welcome in my local club.

I hate this mentality so bad. It really sounds terrible when you don't welcome a person into the club because of the FLUFF made by the SAME COMPANY that they have NO CONTROL OVER for an army they like to play.

To me it sounds like "LOL! I'm so edgy I cut my razor while shaving! I need everything in my game to be dark and terrible. I play slaughter marines, they eat orphan's faces for breakfast."

Who wouldn't welcome the comedic straight man to a game filled up with armies of rapists (Dark Eldar), Gods/Daemons of Rape (Slaanesh), and mass murderers (ANYONE, like literally every faction on an hourly basis.)

Well that is your rigth I suppose, and why should we allow such people into the club? I do not welcome such things in 40k, its supposed to be grim, bloody and filled with despair! And I dont shave if you where wondering about that

 LoneLictor wrote:


1) I doubt that. Progress usually ends badly in 40k. Look at the Necrons

Uhm...what. Necrons used to be a civilization where everyone died in their youngsters and now, they are will-less yet immortal and unstoppable machines led by their dark gods, the C'tan. I don't see how that turned against the Necrons though as they were able to strip from their mortal bodies and became ever-faithful and ever-living (pun intended) servants to their gods.

In the end, they became far mightier than before and are now much closer to their ultimate goal: destroying all life there is.

They may be nice, but that doesn't make them weak by any means.

The mind control thing is just an Imperial theory which they adopt because they can't comprehend an entire race cooperating and obeying willfully and under no duress. But if it were true, as stated above, Farsight never would have had the choice to leave the empire. There are other examples but that's a big one.
This also means that the Tau are not fascist. They are strongly utilitarian.

Don't be fooled by BL bolter porn writing. Everything Tau accomplishes, it accomplishes with inferior numbers, because they use only what they need. Overtaking an enemy with sheer numbers is an imperial strategy which continues to fail against the Tau. The imperium is going to have to get smarter than they currently are if they want to beat the Tau. As they are, they'll continue to be outclassed by superior tech and forward thinking.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Why do people keep stating that ethereals mind control Tau like it's a fact? It's suggested in the book, but it's a GW suggestion. They also suggest the Emperor is fading and could be reborn as a dark god or as a god of order. They suggest that Necrons have a frozen primarch. That something is chasing the Nids.

And that would be one hell of a psychich ability to span across planets. They don't mention how spread out ethereals are, but I'm guessing they can't constantly be around to influence people.

And Farsight's enclave doesn't prove that Tau will stray from Greater Good without Ethereal influence. His story isn't clearly explained and sounds more like a case of a loose cannon cop with nothing to lose.

The Tau 'Mind Control' ability isn't psionic in nature. It was stated in the original Codex: Tau, and reinforced in the Fire Warrior novelisation, which is as canon as any Black Library, that the Ethereals use pheromones (IE, natural chemical markers detected nasally that go straight to the subconcious) to instil certain emotions (emotional calmness, I believe) and obedience in nearby Tau. Collquially, players refer to this as "mind control", but it's not psychic or 100% complete in any way.

Nasally you say. I think there might be a problem with that idea.

Furyou Miko wrote:It was stated in the original Codex: Tau, [...]

Do you remember where exactly? If this is something I missed, I would have to modify my personal interpretation of the setting by this bit.

Furyou Miko wrote:[...] and reinforced in the Fire Warrior novelisation, which is as canon as any Black Library [...]

Which is to say not at all.

There is no such thing as The One True Canon in 40k, only lots of different visions by countless authors, readers and gamers alike.

Furyou Miko wrote:Orks aren't mass murderers. They're just playing.

Harriticus wrote:Tau have a dark side but overall are significantly better then any faction in 40k and I think that works out fine, you can have a more shade of grey faction then everyone being ULTRA GRIMDARK.

Well said - expressed my thoughts better than my own earlier post.

Tau also fill a niche in the archtype roles, we have ancient forgotten empires, crumbling empires, ravening empires, and corrupting empires, they are the emerging empire, adds to the dynamics of the setting.

And as to all the ethereal control schemes, even FFG has retconed any idea of mind control or pheremones, stateing something to the effect of "something deeper" may be occuring (not sure exact wording my deathwatch books in packed away)

Mind control would be problematic unless Ethereals are far more common than it seems, and pheremones would require all sealed systems, ships , and life support systems to be tailored to allow the Pheremones acess to the sealed enviroments, and again would mean constant exposure to these controls, or have them be so potent that its a one time exposure, who knows.

Myself ..never underestimate the power of indoctrination and propaganda..has worked for the imperium so why not others.

And finally to the fellow that stated his gaming group bans any Tau players from joining their club..bravo likely you have done him a favor and spared him his misfortune to interact with such a narrowminded and petty group.
sorry man but thats about the dumbest gaming group rule I have ever read.

There's also the stories of Tau Concentration Camps and the Tau's assassination of one of their own commanders (Brightsword) to avoid a political catastrophe which sort of already happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:


1) I doubt that. Progress usually ends badly in 40k. Look at the Necrons

Uhm...what. Necrons used to be a civilization where everyone died in their youngsters and now, they are will-less yet immortal and unstoppable machines led by their dark gods, the C'tan. I don't see how that turned against the Necrons though as they were able to strip from their mortal bodies and became ever-faithful and ever-living (pun intended) servants to their gods.

In the end, they became far mightier than before and are now much closer to their ultimate goal: destroying all life there is.

Actually, its even better than that. They are the only faction to successfully kill a god. Not even that, a selection of Gods. They are now one of the only factions that can afford to have its own inner political systems and conflicts on grand scales and does it all the time. They view organizing their files as not a boring task, but a way of using up the infinite years they have to use. Seem more advanced to me.

I like them this way after all how much stronger would the good"ish" races be if they banded together instead of beat at each other with the wolves out side the door.

SPACE COMMIES!!! Of course they're evil. 150 million deaths in 50 years on Earth according to the Black Book of Communism (author S. Comptois), imagine the 41st millenium's billions...

(Yes, this is Troll bait.)

But referring to the OP's original intent, I do indeed find that the way the official fluff is written makes the Tau seem far too nice, you've got to search hard to see the dark truth. It should have been more obvious, more controversial.

And I do find them far too Robotech-like for 40k. I like the Vespid, I like the Kroot, but I don't like the Tau's look at all.

If the Tau are too good for some people, I can only imagine those same people want the Space Wolves, Ultramarines, and Salamanders gone too.

I think the Tau are fine. Worst thing I can really say about them is that the Vespid are really ugly.

As a former Tau player(switched to IG... until their new Codex comes out ). I feel I should have a say in this, I'm well known in my gaming group for yelling "FOR THE GREATER GOOD" ....now "FOR THE EMPEROR" when I throw my dice lol.

Fun bit aside, I have to disagree with the idea that Chaos are truly "Gods". It's simply an example of human language being limited, in my opinion, in not being able to describe Chaos... the true meaning of a God as it pertains today doesn't really fit.

They are however, completely and totally alien and do not obey our "natural order" due to being, you guessed it, NOT from our natural order. I view them as simply really powerful aliens and not Gods but maybe that's my Atheism creeping into my lore haha. I see no reason why the Tau could not deal with the Warp technologically.

On the topic of the Tau, I also never believed their caste system was very Orwellian or evil though a lot of people tend to think that way because of OUR experience with caste systems. You have to remember the Tau are not simply put into the caste their in because of who birthed them, it's literally in their genetics. The Air Caste are actually an aerial variant species of the Tau... it makes perfect sense why they would be in that Caste.

This is alien to us and their system is, in my opinion, totally alien and uncomparable to us(albeit extremely interesting).

Also... communism isn't evil it's never REALLY been done or taken in proper context to be executed correctly.

Archonate wrote:

Don't be fooled by BL bolter porn writing. Everything Tau accomplishes, it accomplishes with inferior numbers, because they use only what they need. Overtaking an enemy with sheer numbers is an imperial strategy which continues to fail against the Tau. The imperium is going to have to get smarter than they currently are if they want to beat the Tau. As they are, they'll continue to be outclassed by superior tech and forward thinking.

Oh, really?

Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.
But we know they will be kept because:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Tau also fill a niche in the archtype roles, we have ancient forgotten empires, crumbling empires, ravening empires, and corrupting empires, they are the emerging empire, adds to the dynamics of the setting.

Atheos wrote:

Also... communism isn't evil it's never REALLY been done or taken in proper context to be executed correctly.

Deal with the fall-out of attempts at communism like we do in europe and you start to think otherwise..

Still a lot of the Tau fluff doesn't fit into the franchise as well as it could, so the question if they are "too good" may return again and again until they are "updated" for 6th ed. Which may happen so just wait where they go...

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

I don't see how one contradicts the other? Where is it written that Gods need to be exceptionally powerful, even invincible? Most non-monotheistic religions have their Gods getting pwned on occassion, often enough by mortals.

The status of "God-hood" in itself says nothing about power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could someone explain to me the Tau = Communist idea?

Given that Tau have a whole caste (Water), roughly 25% of their race, dedicated to trade and business, it would strike me as one of the most, if not the most capitalist faction of 40K (with the Ork 'Teeth' economy being the possible exception).

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
In 40k, the Gods are real. So it ain't superstition.

Nope.

1) The gods are only "real" in the sense that they're the most powerful beings in the universe at the moment. Advancing technology will put an end to that nonsense eventually.

I don't see how one contradicts the other? Where is it written that Gods need to be exceptionally powerful, even invincible? Most non-monotheistic religions have their Gods getting pwned on occassion, often enough by mortals.

The status of "God-hood" in itself says nothing about power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could someone explain to me the Tau = Communist idea?

Given that Tau have a whole caste (Water), roughly 25% of their race, dedicated to trade and business, it would strike me as one of the most, if not the most capitalist faction of 40K (with the Ork 'Teeth' economy being the possible exception).

Either people are stupid and get dumber by the minute or the entire Tau = Communists idea is only used as some kind of dated joke. That's the only explanation i have. Of course, the existence of the water cast says relatively about the ecomonomic system of the Tau Empire. For all we know they might have some kind of command economy which can still require the existence of traders ( especialy if we assume that the various Septs and member worlds have a degree of autonomy and for the trade with alien empires ) but is pretty far away from any captalist system.

1hadhq wrote:

Deal with the fall-out of attempts at communism like we do in europe and you start to think otherwise..

Still a lot of the Tau fluff doesn't fit into the franchise as well as it could, so the question if they are "too good" may return again and again until they are "updated" for 6th ed. Which may happen so just wait where they go...

Reading the fluff, it just seems different, not "too good". They have the same "convert or die" mentality the imperium does. Now, it may not be "convert, and we will probably kill you anyways", or "convert, and we may kill you to set an example", or "we're going to kill you and eat you regardless", but as far as their expansionist philosophy goes, they don't look much different than an IG-only Imperium. Anyone think the IG needs to get canned because they aren't "dark" enough?

As far as projecting based off communist regimes, there has never been an actual human communist regime (as the political philosophy is envisioned). You are comparing them to nationalist or socialist dictatorships who simply called themselves "communists" to get the masses to buy in, and if you want to project based off nationalist dictatorships, I guess we all know where the Imperium is going to wind up, so let's just dump all of the imperium's factions. We know what happened to empires that sacrificed prisoners to sate a god's blood thirst. We know what happened to slavers. We know what happened to theocracies. GW should just announce they are discontinuing support for everything except nids, orks and crons, because everything else is based off a philosophy that failed at some point in human history.

Come on, it's not like the Tau have a "rainbow gun" that fills your CSM's helmet with butterflies and happy thoughts.

 KingDeath wrote:
For all we know they might have some kind of command economy which can still require the existence of traders ( especialy if we assume that the various Septs and member worlds have a degree of autonomy and for the trade with alien empires ) but is pretty far away from any captalist system.

Pretty far away from any capitalist system? Compared to what?

Compared to 21st century USA. A given.

Compared to 41st Millenium IoM? Makes Tau look like Ayn Rand disciples with a vengeance.

Compared to 19th century imperial mercantilism. Pretty much what the Tau do writ large in space.

 1hadhq wrote:


Oh, really?

Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.

Why? because of the game stats? they ahve NOTHING to do with fluff.

Fluff-wise Tau firewarrios, while not as genetically mighty, and not as well armored, pack standard rifles that make space marines heavy weapons look bad in comparison.

Crisis suits pack more firepower each then a squad of tactical marines.

Heck, the "heavy infantry" railgun (devestator equivilant) is, by fluff, able to take down multiple takes by shot if aim correctly, and even kill entire platoons of evenmy soldiers just flying next to them.

 1hadhq wrote:


Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.
But we know they will be kept because:

Take away that plot-armour and every last Space Marine chapter would've been gone ages ago. "Winning" battles with hundreds of losses every other Thursday while it takes decade to train your guys? Thanks for trying.

Take away that plot-armour and Tyranids would've been a forgotten memory as soon as they appeared. Have they actually ever won a battle? Didn't think so. They just fail their way through the galaxy getting their ass kicked by Maugan Ra when they try to make planet-fall. If they make it, Vostroyans starve(!) them to death. Lol.

Take away that plot-armour and Eldar would almost certainly be gone. A dying race sending your precious survivors to the front-line meatgrinder in every battle? Wisdom of the ancients I suppose...

Take away that plot-armour and Dark Eldar (cum Commorrah) would be gone. Vect just popped a super-massive black hole in your central city? Only takes one idiot to wipe out a species I guess.

Take away that plot armour and the Imperial Guard is toast. 20th century tactics/wargear in intergalactic warfare? Its like caveman trying to invade 21st Century United States.

Etc.. .

The Tau empire is very small on a galactic level. Even accounting for fluff, the Tau Empire should have been eaten by the Tyranids. They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

The Daemocles Gulf crusade illustrates this. It was a very small imperial crusade, yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau empire. They only left because there were more important threats then some puny alien empire.

Yet in contrast to this, the Tau manage to fend off a Hive Fleet. It makes no sense. The only reason is because the Tau have much more plot armor then any other faction as a whole(some individuals have more but thats seperate)

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Tau empire is very small on a galactic level. Even accounting for fluff, the Tau Empire should have been eaten by the Tyranids. They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

Tau might be small, but Tyranids are miniscule

The largest (!) known Hive Fleet ever to enter the Galaxy, back when nobody even know anything about them, was stopped dead in their tracks by a single Space Marines Chapter (1000 guys) at Maccragge.

Maugan Ra managed to stop them from making planetfall all by himself. A single guy.

By the Nid Codex own map in the book, they ran into trouble going up against a single Ork Freeboota.

Tau might not be the biggest kid on the block, but they are gazillion times more numerous than a single (!) Space Marine chapter, much less a single (!!) Phoenix Lord with an endless clip of ammo and special pole-to-pole running boots. Tyranids shouldn't even register as a credible threat in 40K.

if you haven't seen the latest walking dead

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Tau empire is very small on a galactic level. Even accounting for fluff, the Tau Empire should have been eaten by the Tyranids. They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

Tau might be small, but Tyranids are miniscule

The largest (!) known Hive Fleet ever to enter the Galaxy, back when nobody even know anything about them, was stopped dead in their tracks by a single Space Marines Chapter (1000 guys) at Maccragge.

Not really true, they had significant help from the Ultramar Auxilia (i.e. better then most Guard Regiments), a Titan Legion, and Imperial Navy support.

Plus Behemoth was the smallest Hive Fleet, the largest is Leviathan that made Behemoth seem like an insect.

 Trondheim wrote:
Tau are the one race I wish GW would discontinue, it dose not belong in 40k nor dose their shades of grey either, Its a reason why Tau player are not welcome in my local club.

What a terrible, terrible outlook to have as a hobbyist. Seriously? The "you don't think exactly as I do so get out" attitude? I dread to think how this bleeds into your other, more serious political and social values. Maybe it's people with your kind of mentality that GW should be discontinuing from its hobby, and not one of their more diverse, unique races...

 1hadhq wrote:
Oh, really?

Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.

Something which is equally applicable to every single one of 40K's races.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

The Daemocles Gulf crusade illustrates this. It was a very small imperial crusade, yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau empire. They only left because there were more important threats then some puny alien empire.

There's a few issues, here, starting with that being a very Imperial-centric take on it. Let's look at things a little more evenly. First, the Damocles Gulf Crusade proved that the Tau do indeed have the numbers and the capability of standing up to its galactic neighbours. It may have been a small Imperial effort, but that's all that the IoM can afford to send their way, meaning that the Tau are already powerful enough to fight them off. Why? Because the things that are impeding the Imperium from turning and facing this new threat sufficiently aren't going away any time soon. In fact, they're only going to get worse, and the Imperium itself is no closer to halting or reversing its own decline.

Second, you say "yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau Empire", whereas a more accurate assessment would be; "yet it was halted on the very first major Sept of the Empire it encountered". At the time of the Crusade, the Empire's borders didn't really reach beyond the Del'yth system. The Gulf region and the Imperial worlds just beyond were being probed by Water Caste trade and political advisors/negotiators, and Del'yth itself was more a centre for trade and commerce in the Empire. Therefore, the Imperial Crusaders smashed their way through some human secessionists and minor trade fleets before hitting a wall at the first sign of Tau space/territory proper. They didn't get deep by any means. After Del'yth, they would need to conquer both Vior'la and Sa'cea, whilst keeping their flanks secure from the Gulf and the Perdus Rift regions, maintaining a constant and stable supply line. Both these Septs are major, military population centres, providing the Empire with its most skilled and numerous supply of Fire Warriors. This would need to be done before an assault on the Tau's core systems (including its homeworld) could even begin to be conceptualised, and would need successive waves of Crusaders (troops, ships, supplies) and perhaps a decade or more of campaigning, at least. Lastly, the orders that called for the recall and redeployment of all Eastern-based forces in light of Behemoth was only half the reason the DGC failed, the other half being that they were caught in a stalemate on Del'yth with little hope of securing it for further advancement, let alone any chance of launching new offensives into deeper, more heavily contested zones of Tau space.

All in all, the DGC was a tough lesson for both sides. The Imperium, in its ignorance and arrogance, set off thinking its meagre force, that soon found itself spread thin with little to no supply line to call on, facing an alien race they had vastly, vastly underestimated, would be enough to quell this small, upstart xenos realm. The Tau, at last, caught a glimpse of what the Imperium's true, militaristic and highly xenophobic face looked like, and learnt that the galaxy was a much wider and much darker place, and that their continual spheres of expansion will not come so much through prosperity, trade and peaceful negotiation, but through much, much bitter bloodshed.

Well I feel that the Tau are a nice change of feel for 40k and to be honest aren't a bad addition to it. However I will say that a lot of their "dark" fluff comes from outside of the canon. So taking that into account I can see why some people find them not quite grim dark enough for the 40k setting. On the subject of Chaos gods I try to look at them as alien beings that have attained a level of existence comparable to what we, the human race, consider a 'god' to be. So yes they are gods. Doesn't mean they are unkillable though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
damn I mess up my vote... that should have been no... (I thought it said ''are Tau good for 40k?'')...

I love how people are unironically stating the Tau have more plot armor than Space Marines. Next you're going to tell me that the Orks are the Mary Sues of the franchise.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

The Daemocles Gulf crusade illustrates this. It was a very small imperial crusade, yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau empire. They only left because there were more important threats then some puny alien empire.

There's a few issues, here, starting with that being a very Imperial-centric take on it. Let's look at things a little more evenly. First, the Damocles Gulf Crusade proved that the Tau do indeed have the numbers and the capability of standing up to its galactic neighbours. It may have been a small Imperial effort, but that's all that the IoM can afford to send their way, meaning that the Tau are already powerful enough to fight them off. Why? Because the things that are impeding the Imperium from turning and facing this new threat sufficiently aren't going away any time soon. In fact, they're only going to get worse, and the Imperium itself is no closer to halting or reversing its own decline.

Second, you say "yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau Empire", whereas a more accurate assessment would be; "yet it was halted on the very first major Sept of the Empire it encountered". At the time of the Crusade, the Empire's borders didn't really reach beyond the Del'yth system. The Gulf region and the Imperial worlds just beyond were being probed by Water Caste trade and political advisors/negotiators, and Del'yth itself was more a centre for trade and commerce in the Empire. Therefore, the Imperial Crusaders smashed their way through some human secessionists and minor trade fleets before hitting a wall at the first sign of Tau space/territory proper. They didn't get deep by any means. After Del'yth, they would need to conquer both Vior'la and Sa'cea, whilst keeping their flanks secure from the Gulf and the Perdus Rift regions, maintaining a constant and stable supply line. Both these Septs are major, military population centres, providing the Empire with its most skilled and numerous supply of Fire Warriors. This would need to be done before an assault on the Tau's core systems (including its homeworld) could even begin to be conceptualised, and would need successive waves of Crusaders (troops, ships, supplies) and perhaps a decade or more of campaigning, at least. Lastly, the orders that called for the recall and redeployment of all Eastern-based forces in light of Behemoth was only half the reason the DGC failed, the other half being that they were caught in a stalemate on Del'yth with little hope of securing it for further advancement, let alone any chance of launching new offensives into deeper, more heavily contested zones of Tau space.

All in all, the DGC was a tough lesson for both sides. The Imperium, in its ignorance and arrogance, set off thinking its meagre force, that soon found itself spread thin with little to no supply line to call on, facing an alien race they had vastly, vastly underestimated, would be enough to quell this small, upstart xenos realm. The Tau, at last, caught a glimpse of what the Imperium's true, militaristic and highly xenophobic face looked like, and learnt that the galaxy was a much wider and much darker place, and that their continual spheres of expansion will not come so much through prosperity, trade and peaceful negotiation, but through much, much bitter bloodshed.

Again, its no surprise the Crusade was stopped on a major sept world(which was almost exterminated) because it was a fething tiny crusade. Only a few IG regiments, a handful of Space Marines, and a couple Titans.

The fact that such a small crusade almost got a Sept world, and a buch of other planets, just illustrates what would happen if the Imperium launched a real crusade. Something having thousands of IG regiments, several full chapters, and a couple Titan Legions.

Of course this will never happen because the Tau just arn't a major threat.

The Gulf Crusade was like the Imperium scratching an annoying itch and then being distracted by something more important. The Tau, in their simplicity, think that the crusade was a major flexing of the Imperium's muscle. When it truth it was nothing.

1068SCP wrote:
I love how people are unironically stating the Tau have more plot armor than Space Marines. Next you're going to tell me that the Orks are the Mary Sues of the franchise.

There are people who think that too. I have heard orks called Mary sue a lot. (40k is invested with mary sues though, so whatever.)

jwr wrote:
.

Come on, it's not like the Tau have a "rainbow gun" that fills your CSM's helmet with butterflies and happy thoughts.

May I point out, I is no traitor...
But additionally they have "happy thougths" for their vespids it seems..
*ducks*

BoomWolf wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:


Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.

Fluff-wise Tau firewarrios, while not as genetically mighty, and not as well armored, pack standard rifles that make space marines heavy weapons look bad in comparison.

Crisis suits pack more firepower each then a squad of tactical marines.

Heck, the "heavy infantry" railgun (devestator equivilant) is, by fluff, able to take down multiple takes by shot if aim correctly, and even kill entire platoons of enenmy soldiers just flying next to them.

Feel free to join Archonate on his fan-course. Just don't expect me to take such "but we have x and y and z " as a serious answer. We know how these debates end, right?

Zweischneid wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:


Take away that plot-armor and the Tau are down in seconds.
But we know they will be kept because:

Take away ... <snip>

Etc.. .

If one switches into FAN-mode a reply about plot armor is in order in my book. So, context with the post i have quoted would help you. I didn't say its a Tau - only feature.

Anfauglir wrote:
Something which is equally applicable to every single one of 40K's races.

See above.

Anfauglir wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They simply don't have the numbers needed to resist the attacks of other races.

The Daemocles Gulf crusade illustrates this. It was a very small imperial crusade, yet it managed to pierce deep into the Tau empire. They only left because there were more important threats then some puny alien empire.

There's a few issues, here, ..

Yes, first its D a l yth
Second:

Anfauglir wrote:
The Tau, at last, caught a glimpse of what the Imperium's true, militaristic and highly xenophobic face looked like, and learnt that the galaxy was a much wider and much darker place, and that their continual spheres of expansion will not come so much through prosperity, trade and peaceful negotiation, but through much, much bitter bloodshed.

The issue of the Tau is, they don't take the info about others seriously. Rogue Traders told them about the IoM. Did they listen? Of course not. Because its easier to stick with your own idea of the Galaxy. Another thing they share with many others.

I can never remember how its spelled

I think Tau largely suffer from the problems of Necrons and Dark Eldar. The three combine to make the newest races to the 40k verse (yes, some are over a decade old by now). But the problem is basically that, like the others, when they were initially introduced they were tossed in and welded on as a basic concept. Then, instead of building them from the ground up as a fixture in 40k, the basic concept was just piled on with a bunch of cruft. I think the Tau could fit in to 40k quite well. On the face they are an Orwellian nightmare that works nicely as the "in any other universe, they would be the evil empire" foil. But their background is shallow and often seesaws in tone. One minute mentioning how they would crumple if a larger galactic power sneezes and the next blunting a 'Nid hive fleet without taking casualties.

Like the Necrons and the Dark Eldar their fluff needs to evolve and grow in to 40k. They need to focus more and take the basic concept and actually figure out where it fits in the grand scheme of things. I have know doubt that the Tau could work, but right now they feel just like the other new races of 40k. Underdeveloped, anemic and out of place. I hope their next codex does for them what the Dark Eldar codex did for that army.

Anyone read asimovs foundation books? The tau kinda feel like an eldar version of the first foundation.

spears wrote:
Anyone read asimovs foundation books? The tau kinda feel like an eldar version of the first foundation.

#

The "1000-year plan" was pretty much the direct inspiration for the Tau Empire. A "fail-safe" / "safety-net" that would mitigate the chaos from the "inevitable/foretold" fall of the big galactic Empire.

I vaguely remember even reading an interview reference on this inspiration way back when, but I couldn't ever find it on the net. Maybe I was just imagining it.

Either way, the fit is of course perfect, especially with all the shenanigans going on around the Tau Empire's creation... conveniently shielding Warp Storm, sudden appearance of Ethereals from thin air, etc.. ,etc..

Likewise, I like to entertain the (entirely unsupported) possibility their might be more artificial "Tau Empires" out there from other more-or-less civilized races who got turbo-boosted to the "seriously-space-faring" level by whoever is behind the Tau. If the Tau are a civilization artificially accelerated (and controlled via the Ethereal-proxies)... sort of a mirror to the Emperors Space Marines/Primarch programme but infinitely more vast in scale ... than there's little that would stop the "creators" behind the Tau to do it again.. and again.. and again..

 blood lance wrote:
There's also the stories of Tau Concentration Camps and the Tau's assassination of one of their own commanders (Brightsword) to avoid a political catastrophe which sort of already happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:


1) I doubt that. Progress usually ends badly in 40k. Look at the Necrons

Uhm...what. Necrons used to be a civilization where everyone died in their youngsters and now, they are will-less yet immortal and unstoppable machines led by their dark gods, the C'tan. I don't see how that turned against the Necrons though as they were able to strip from their mortal bodies and became ever-faithful and ever-living (pun intended) servants to their gods.

In the end, they became far mightier than before and are now much closer to their ultimate goal: destroying all life there is.

Actually, its even better than that. They are the only faction to successfully kill a god. Not even that, a selection of Gods. They are now one of the only factions that can afford to have its own inner political systems and conflicts on grand scales and does it all the time. They view organizing their files as not a boring task, but a way of using up the infinite years they have to use. Seem more advanced to me.

I know that this is a late reply, but it's even better than you make it out to be. With the new fluff, the Necrons are not only immortal, they have not only defeated their former oppressors (who were gods on par with, if not more powerful than, the Chaos Gods), but they now keep them locked up and use them for Pokemon battles. They also get to fly around in Space Croissants and kill anybody they don't particularly like. There is even an Overlord who spends his time popping around the galaxy screwing with people and taking anything remotely shiny that isn't tied down. 'Crons have it pretty good.

The Tau are only "good" by the standards of 40k, by which the next nicest guys are the totalitarian military theocracy that treats human life as the most abundant and expendable resource it has and the *really* bad guy are literally armies of daemons from a universe of unreality and terror.

The Tau's greater good seems like a laudible, high minded goal, they want everyone to work together towards peace and prosperity and the promise of a better future. But you'll do it their way on their terms and they're more than willing to bomb your planet from orbit, right down to the bedrock, if you don't go along with the plan. You *WILL* join the greater good, you *WILL* work together under the helpful guidance of the Ethereal caste. You do the job you are assigned and have no say in the affairs of state or governance and relatively little to say about what you do.

Now, by 40k standards, that's almost sickeningly cute. By everyone else's standards, it's a very 1984/Brave New World/Stepford-y type deal that's very dark and dystopian.

From the tone of those who answer "yes" (the Tau are too good for 40k) it seems that one of the reasons you don't like these guys is because they're new. Talking about the Democles Crusade it has been posited that if the IoM went all out the Tau wouldn't stand a chance. Fair enough - I don't think you're wrong. But then the argument goes down the slope of "anything new would die immediately" and this would stagnate the game as well as the setting.

In saying that, I really do think the Tau background needs a lot more work. They ARE the realtive good guys who always lead with offers of capitulation rather than just shooting things. The GW stories give some hints at a mean streak, but it's never really explored.

However my question becomes "What is wrong with having a good faction?" It would need some careful and very well articulated background (of which the current stuff is neither) but why can there not be an agent for hope in the universe? We're talking about a game that explores the 'endless possibilities of the infinites of space' yet the argument is that we should not use that possiblity. I understand that 40k is 'the Grim-Dark (TM)', but EVERY race fights with hope of salvation/victory/conquest/whatever. Even the Emperor went into his first crusade with the goal of peace; would have achieved it too if it wasn't for Horus. So should the pre-Heresy setting be looked down on because it was all for... well... the greater good?

Not that I'm saying there needs to be a Rainbows and Unicorns faction - having a dark side is very nice. :-)

Personally I just like the idea of a race who is technologically advanced and still advancing, poking holes in armour with their guns. As I said before I really do think their background could use a fair bit of (non-Ward [ie, not completely spastic]) expansion.

 1hadhq wrote:

Atheos wrote:

Also... communism isn't evil it's never REALLY been done or taken in proper context to be executed correctly.

Deal with the fall-out of attempts at communism like we do in europe and you start to think otherwise..

Still a lot of the Tau fluff doesn't fit into the franchise as well as it could, so the question if they are "too good" may return again and again until they are "updated" for 6th ed. Which may happen so just wait where they go...

You could easily put that down to totalitarianism/fascism, sticking a label on it even though it doesn't fit what you're doing doesn't make it that thing.

At least that's what I've taken from actually reading the Manifesto in it's historical context, etc, etc.

As for the Tau stuff... I'm sure there will be a lot of new fluff in their book (HOPEFULLY... been forever since we got some) so I'm sure some stuff will stick out that makes them less goody goody. A lot of stuff has happened in the intervening years

It really just depends on how the tau are written. If the next codex focuses more on their enslavement of other races. More on the mind control of their own species. More on the tau's own civil war with their farsight rebellion and his reasoning for it.

If the author writes them with their "grim dark" nature instead of their "good of the galaxy" spin then the tau will fit right in. Also please don't start the whole tau vs other factions discussion in here. Neither side will ever see the other sides point. It doesn't matter that tau plasma technology puts the imperiums to shame. It doesn't matter that there are more humans in a single hive city than in an entire tau sept. Neither side will win this arguement and its off topic.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
It really just depends on how the tau are written. If the next codex focuses more on their enslavement of other races. More on the mind control of their own species. More on the tau's own civil war with their farsight rebellion and his reasoning for it.

If the author writes them with their "grim dark" nature instead of their "good of the galaxy" spin then the tau will fit right in. Also please don't start the whole tau vs other factions discussion in here. Neither side will ever see the other sides point. It doesn't matter that tau plasma technology puts the imperiums to shame. It doesn't matter that there are more humans in a single hive city than in an entire tau sept. Neither side will win this arguement and its off topic.

I disagree. While some darker aspects are ok it could be argued that the Tau would lose much of their rather unique appeal if you overdo the grimdark with them.
Some people do not like them for their fluff but that's ok. I dislike Spacewolves for the same reason but that's no reason to completely change a faction's entire fluff.

nomotog wrote:

1068SCP wrote:
I love how people are unironically stating the Tau have more plot armor than Space Marines. Next you're going to tell me that the Orks are the Mary Sues of the franchise.

There are people who think that too. I have heard orks called Mary sue a lot. (40k is invested with mary sues though, so whatever.)

...Everyone in 40k is a Mary Sue because the vast majority of the fluff about any race is propaganda written from that race's perspective...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
It really just depends on how the tau are written. If the next codex focuses more on their enslavement of other races. More on the mind control of their own species. More on the tau's own civil war with their farsight rebellion and his reasoning for it.

If the author writes them with their "grim dark" nature instead of their "good of the galaxy" spin then the tau will fit right in. Also please don't start the whole tau vs other factions discussion in here. Neither side will ever see the other sides point. It doesn't matter that tau plasma technology puts the imperiums to shame. It doesn't matter that there are more humans in a single hive city than in an entire tau sept. Neither side will win this arguement and its off topic.

You're missing the point of the Tau. Just because they tell you that they're on a crusade to bring peace to the galaxy doesn't mean they're nice people, that that's they're actual objective, or that they're not generally just as nasty and evil as anyone else, all it means is that they're cloaking their objectives behind an illusion of righteousness, just like a lot of people in the Imperium. Based on what I've read they're a militant Orwellian dystopia using manifest destiny to unify their citizens behind the objective of going out and conquering the rest of the galaxy. They're no different from the Imperium, except that they're willing to make slaves of other races instead of shooting them on sight.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

nomotog wrote:

1068SCP wrote:
I love how people are unironically stating the Tau have more plot armor than Space Marines. Next you're going to tell me that the Orks are the Mary Sues of the franchise.

There are people who think that too. I have heard orks called Mary sue a lot. (40k is invested with mary sues though, so whatever.)

...Everyone in 40k is a Mary Sue because the vast majority of the fluff about any race is propaganda written from that race's perspective...

I don't think that's the reason. Most of the fluff dosen't come from their own perspective it comes from the IoM. I think it's just the writing style for the setting on it's own. Not that it's a huge problem though. It seems to work.

Yes, they are good for the setting, because they demonstrate why the Imperium is the way it is.

The Tau aren't "better" than the Imperium. They simply aren't in a desperate situation. The Imperium doesn't have it's citizens working 16 hour days in war factories because they want to; they're doing it because if they didn't mankind would be wiped out. They aren't shooting dissenters for the fun of it; they're doing it because they can't afford to have everyone not on the same page. They don't treat guardsmen as expendable because their lives are meaningless; they do it because the lives saved by their sacrifice far outweigh the cost.

If the Tau ever became significant enough to attract the kind of attention the Imperium has, they would perform the same horrors as the Imperium. Or they would be wiped out.

And that's before we get into the evils of their caste system (don't want to be a warrior? Too bad, you're fire caste! Now go out there and die!) and the apparent mind control.

They may be too "good" but a lighter faction is needed, if only for a comparative pov.

Without light, how do you know what darkness is?

Actually the caste system is a very bad example of what's "not right" about them, as the different castes are pretty much subraces who are VERY different from one another, like some kinds of bugs have different subraces that are all genetically the same race, but have vastly different bodies that serve vastly different roles.

A fire caste HAS to be a soldier not because it's the will of the ethreals, but because he is incapeable of manual labor, incapeable of making careful calculations, incapeable of doing pretty much anything-but being far more bloodthirsty, agressive, violent and lethal then any other Tau. (they pale compared to more other races, but the other castes are far less hardy, strong and fierce)

Same for the earth caste, being only good at manual labor and things that require a calculational mind, water caste being good only at mental tasks and air caste being good at navigation and manipulating transport devices, they are genetically made to fit one job, and it happened naturally-so nothing is wrong with it.


Tau do, however, feel a bit apature to me. "we do what we must, because we can.". clean, efficient, and emotinally distant of their actions, in a disturbing way.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Tau do, however, feel a bit apature to me. "we do what we must, because we can.". clean, efficient, and emotinally distant of their actions, in a disturbing way.

Except for all the Farsight hotheads who have found freedom through anger.

 Micky wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Tau do, however, feel a bit apature to me. "we do what we must, because we can.". clean, efficient, and emotinally distant of their actions, in a disturbing way.

Except for all the Farsight hotheads who have found freedom through anger.

Which makes for a nice contrast when it comes to the Tau Empire. Having a schism does help show what type of tactics one can use when they are not apart of "Ethereal Way"

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You're missing the point of the Tau. Just because they tell you that they're on a crusade to bring peace to the galaxy doesn't mean they're nice people, that that's they're actual objective, or that they're not generally just as nasty and evil as anyone else, all it means is that they're cloaking their objectives behind an illusion of righteousness, just like a lot of people in the Imperium. Based on what I've read they're a militant Orwellian dystopia using manifest destiny to unify their citizens behind the objective of going out and conquering the rest of the galaxy. They're no different from the Imperium, except that they're willing to make slaves of other races instead of shooting them on sight.

Well, how about this:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Seems the designers also missed your point

 Kroothawk wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You're missing the point of the Tau. Just because they tell you that they're on a crusade to bring peace to the galaxy doesn't mean they're nice people, that that's they're actual objective, or that they're not generally just as nasty and evil as anyone else, all it means is that they're cloaking their objectives behind an illusion of righteousness, just like a lot of people in the Imperium. Based on what I've read they're a militant Orwellian dystopia using manifest destiny to unify their citizens behind the objective of going out and conquering the rest of the galaxy. They're no different from the Imperium, except that they're willing to make slaves of other races instead of shooting them on sight.

Well, how about this:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Seems the designers also missed your point

I was going to post something about how in the Codex, it states that Tau (the race, not the empire) seek be the first among equals.

Reading this, and the various other things, like they don't integrate the Kroot because the Tau (as a society) find the Kroot offensive (they are cannibals after all), tells me that they honestly want the best for all of their subjects; Tau, Human or what have you.

 Peregrine wrote:


2) History says that it's all superstition. That whole "pray to the machine god or your tank doesn't work" thing? That's just some idiot ten thousand years ago declaring that the user's manual is a sacred text and the startup checklist is a religious ritual to the machine god. And then of course thousands of years of equally idiotic theocracy pushing things to the point that even the slightest questioning of the sacred dogma or attempt to use real science or engineering is heresy and punished by death. Of course it didn't work that way in the past, when all of Imperial technology was first invented, so it's pretty stupid to argue that the machine god is anything but superstition.

Isn't that they believe it so it becomes real? Like machine spirit exist and can be corrupted etc?

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
They are a alternate shade of grey in the sometimes way to dark 40k setting, and serve to show off how truly dark the likes of Dark eldar, Chaos truly are.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
...if everything is dark evil and genocidal..it kinda waters down the evil.

I disagree with the whole Tau for contrast thing, "everything is ultimate grimdark hopeless evil evilness" is a great flavour of the universe. The more grimdark and genocidal 40k gets, the more of a parody of everything else and itself it becomes but remains incredibly cool doing that. So you got serious grimdark not being serious the same time, something unique imo.

One thing that was great about our WFRP rpg sessions was that you had no chances ever to keep your belongings, sanity, moral code for more than a few days, no matter how succesful you were it always turned out to be some outside plot to use you or one big mistake with tragic consequences. You step down into a sever without Sigmar avatar with you, you die or get out with few additional eyes and good luck in the forest there. Grimdark is no hope, no chance, no sanity, no good, no middle ground - that's what makes it great.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
so yes they fit..thats why they are in it, variety is the spice of life.

There are 100s other universes with variety, why can't this one be grimdark bolter round to the face chainsaw to the spine, only hopelessness simple and unvaried... it looses its character being diluted with races like Tau or Kroot and all those really serious stories with serious motivations.

Maybe on the end of the road there's only another Star Wars or Mass Effect or sth, just another pulp sf galaxy only with different aproach on design.


All that said I can live with Tau, after Newcrons I don't care anymore anyway as those are evil for 10 year old kids if so and silly in the bad way. If GW emphasised the communist type dichotomy in Tau (it's all for good of everyone! If you don't follow our orders, you go down for good of everyone!) it would be ok, I kind of like the idea of grimdark greys in 40k but Tau are just not evil enough.

But the worst part of them is XV8 battlesuit model, it is so unbearably toyish and nice that it hurts my brain watching at it. I know Dreadnought is kind of there too but still not the same league and at least it's a walking coffin, XV8 has nothing to explain itself. It could be a LEGO 3+ toy and noone would notice really, GW should redesign it asap imo

 chromedog wrote:
They may be too "good" but a lighter faction is needed, if only for a comparative pov.

Without light, how do you know what darkness is?

You know because of gazillion of books, games, movies and life itself. You don't need contrast race to be put particularly into 40k to know everyone is evil there.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually the caste system is a very bad example of what's "not right" about them, as the different castes are pretty much subraces who are VERY different from one another, like some kinds of bugs have different subraces that are all genetically the same race, but have vastly different bodies that serve vastly different roles.

A fire caste HAS to be a soldier not because it's the will of the ethreals, but because he is incapeable of manual labor, incapeable of making careful calculations, incapeable of doing pretty much anything-but being far more bloodthirsty, agressive, violent and lethal then any other Tau. (they pale compared to more other races, but the other castes are far less hardy, strong and fierce)

Same for the earth caste, being only good at manual labor and things that require a calculational mind, water caste being good only at mental tasks and air caste being good at navigation and manipulating transport devices, they are genetically made to fit one job, and it happened naturally-so nothing is wrong with it.


Tau do, however, feel a bit apature to me. "we do what we must, because we can.". clean, efficient, and emotinally distant of their actions, in a disturbing way.

Don't be silly. War is all the Tau did before the Ethereals arrived. Every caste was fighting. That was why the Greater Good was such a big deal; it divided the Tau race into their different roles (which thereby implies that such was not the case before before).

Don't you need goody-goodies to balance it out a little bit.

reaper with no name wrote:

Don't be silly. War is all the Tau did before the Ethereals arrived. Every caste was fighting. That was why the Greater Good was such a big deal; it divided the Tau race into their different roles (which thereby implies that such was not the case before before).

Actually it was more of the fire being travelling pillagres who took everything by force, the earth trying to build themselves fortress-citys to defend themselves, the air just being too hard to catch and steal from everyone else, and the water going for a "strengh by numbers" thing by forging alliances with the other water tribes and bribing fire tirbes to leave them alone/defend them from other fire tribes.

They were not all bloodthirsty and warmonging, only the fire were, and the otehrs adapted to survive, and got into habit of killing as well because there was no other way with the fire tribes running wild and massacuring everyone too weak to defend themselves/run away.


The fire caste is the real risky part of the Tau empire. these guys are as bad as any other when it comes to warmonging, the others kind of balance them out. (air by cowadness, earth by passiveness and water by diplomacy)

Water can be just as nasty when it comes to the good/evil meter, because they WILL force you to your knees and enslave you without ethreals keeping them in check, just economically instead of militeristicly.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Is that true? What a pile of crap, space hobbits with a mission.

Lets hope Farsight gives some sort of FoC bending ability in the new codex. Or maybe a melee weapon option for battlesuits!

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war".

Seems to me that the Tau, as they are now presented, don't fit too well with the overall 40k theme. On a personal level, I feel their gear looks too much like Robotech or Star Wars and their society looks too much like Star Trek, which makes them appear far less and dark-looking distinctive than the other 40K species.

It also has the inconvenient of making the Imperium's struggle against Chaos less justified, as if they could be nicer yet still succeed at preserving mankind, while a core element of the 40k universe IMHO is that "however bleak it is, the Imperium couldn't work otherwise and is Mankind's last hope". That, at least in the Black Library Pre-Heresy novels, seems to be the driving cause behind the Great Crusade in the face of future events foresworn by the Emperor, beloved by all.

I think the darker side of the Tau should at least be conveyed in the mechanics, perhaps with penal regiment units, brainwashed converts from other species or crowd control troops so that this society's uglier side shows more.

The tau are having trouble enough dealing with the orks not to mention getting bitch slapped by Vect and Rakarth they won't be causing the gods of chaos any problems for a long time

To be honest, its always been my opinion that the morality of each army is so strongly tied to each races' beliefs that there truly are no "good guys & bad guys". What is evil to one race may not seem so to another (Orks are a perfect example of this).

For instance, the Imperium (the alleged "good guys" of the 40K setting) are far from what modern society would call "good". Genocidal, paranoid, quick to anger, arrogant, these are not the makings of a just society.

Most would immediately see Chaos as the "bad guys" of the 40K setting, but are they really? What is the difference between murdering a world in the name of Khorne versus murdering a world in the name of the Emperor? Most mortal Chaos forces sole motivation is to destroy the oppressive regime of the Imperium and install what they believe would be a true and free society. Had Horus won the war, the outlook would be completely different. History is written by the victors as they say.

If anything, its the Xenos races that are the proverbial good guys. The Craftword Eldar are striving to make amends for their past sins, the Orks are just living their lives the only way they know how, and have no "evil" motivations. The Tau are building their own empire their way, for the "Greater Good". The Tyranids are only going on base instinct, and really, they are just looking for food. The Necrons are just trying to restore what was once theirs to begin with.

Of course, the psuedo-exceptions are the Dark Eldar. If there was ever a race that was created to epitomize the "Grim Dark" of 40K, its these guys. Their whole society exists on the suffering of others, and they do this willingly without a hint of remorse and full of selfish motivation.

Tau are actually extremely dark. Second, there needs to be something different from everything else.

They are .....idiots! Tau were fighting against, I think it was chaos, when suddenly the necrons arrive and kill the enemy.
Tau prepare a giant feast for the necrons to honour them for their help. 15 minutes later no more tau

 The Observer wrote:
They are .....idiots! Tau were fighting against, I think it was chaos, when suddenly the necrons arrive and kill the enemy.
Tau prepare a giant feast for the necrons to honour them for their help. 15 minutes later no more tau

Was this in canon? Not fanfiction? I may run a fanfiction encyclopedia, but I still stick by the wisdom of keeping the two separate.

I really can't imagine that being true.

Firewarrior A: Hey, those guys helped us out.
Firewarror B: Those guys?
Firewarrior A: Yeah, lets go hug them to say thanks.
Firewarrior B: Those guys? The ones over there? With the guns? That are really good at murdering?
Firewarrior A: I'm seeing a lot of sass back but not enough hugging.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 The Observer wrote:
They are .....idiots! Tau were fighting against, I think it was chaos, when suddenly the necrons arrive and kill the enemy.
Tau prepare a giant feast for the necrons to honour them for their help. 15 minutes later no more tau

Was this in canon? Not fanfiction? I may run a fanfiction encyclopedia, but I still stick by the wisdom of keeping the two separate.

I want to say it was Tyranids, and from the Necron codex, where the Tau after the battle were like, 'ah, you have joined us against the common foe. Let us extend our hand in friendship-' and then there was much gauss flaying.

^ This was it. I couldn't really remember if it was nids or chaos they were fighting and I was just to lazy to fetch my codex.

 GreyHamster wrote:
They're also fascists that offer you a choice, join them peacefully or join them by force.

And the only reason they offer peace is because they know ultimately, they will have to fight for the planet when the Imperium comes looking for it.

If they can manipulate the populace into switching sides with lies about The Greater Good, then they only have to fight for the planet once, instead of twice.

People should not mistake the Tau for "good guys", because they aren't. The average Tau may believe in The Greater Good, but the average Guardsman believes in the right of the Imperium too. /shrug.


The Tau as "good guys" is a common misconception. It's not really how they are.

 Bookwrack wrote:

I want to say it was Tyranids, and from the Necron codex, where the Tau after the battle were like, 'ah, you have joined us against the common foe. Let us extend our hand in friendship-' and then there was much gauss flaying.

Oh, and don't forget their little adventure with the Dark Eldar too! That story was maybe the best in the DE codex .

The Tau are not good. They are reasonable.

Good means they won't shoot you, even if you don't join them.

Reasonable just means they will ask before shooting you.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Tau are not good. They are reasonable.

That already makes them a whole lot "better" than most other factions in WH40K. They're actually willing to negotiate and give you a choice instead of wiping you out on principle. Planets in the expansion sphere are invited to join, not conquered immediately. Opposing forces encountered are given a chance to withdraw. And the Tau keep their deals, at least so far as anyone living can tell us.

They're not good but they're often a hell of a lot nicer than anyone else you might meet.

Eh, I would also put Necrons as being reasonable.
Its just that they see everyone as vermin

The Tau remind me of the Aschen from Stargate:

They are "nice", but they have a plan for the future and you are not in it - sorry about that...........

ASCHEN
An advanced human species, at least a hundred years ahead of Earth in technological development. The Aschen have, by human standards, little to no personality. They are extremely intelligent, practical, and perceptive, but generally have no sense of humor.

The Aschen are founders of the Aschen Confederation, an alliance of races of which little is known. This makes sense, however, as any race incorporated into the alliance is slowly erased from the face of the galaxy. The Confederation seems to be a collection of races that the Aschen have conquered, or are in the process of gradually conquering. The Aschen utilize a genetic weapon that gradually reduces a target species' ability to reproduce, dropping the birthrate over a period of several years and effectively eliminating the race over a long period of time without their knowledge until the number of the population suitable to the Aschen's goals is reached. After a society is sufficiently reduced, the Aschen have terraformed victim planets, burying the previous civilization beneath. This is done to create a world suitable for farming, to meet the requirements of the Aschen populace.

Yeah...but the Aschen aren't as dickish.
I think the Aschen are more the Interex, really.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

I want to say it was Tyranids, and from the Necron codex, where the Tau after the battle were like, 'ah, you have joined us against the common foe. Let us extend our hand in friendship-' and then there was much gauss flaying.

Oh, and don't forget their little adventure with the Dark Eldar too! That story was maybe the best in the DE codex .

I loved that story. The one where the DE punked the tau in to giving. them 77 tau to turn into eternaly suffering flesh monsters!

No. In the context of the setting, they're in for a rude awakening one day, and that will make their history even more tragic in hindsight.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. In the context of the setting, they're in for a rude awakening one day, and that will make their history even more tragic in hindsight.

Their Empire has already persisted for roughly 300 years. There will be no rude awakening because they have already seen some of the worst that the galaxy has to offer.
People mention how the Tau got duped by the Dark Eldar and the Necrons and call the naive. But unlike the Imperium of Man which can rely on a million worlds, the Tau gain more from actively seeking
out allies than from battling everyone who looks a bit strange. So far this strategy has worked well.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. In the context of the setting, they're in for a rude awakening one day, and that will make their history even more tragic in hindsight.

Their Empire has already persisted for roughly 300 years. There will be no rude awakening because they have already seen some of the worst that the galaxy has to offer.
People mention how the Tau got duped by the Dark Eldar and the Necrons and call the naive. But unlike the Imperium of Man which can rely on a million worlds, the Tau gain more from actively seeking
out allies than from battling everyone who looks a bit strange. So far this strategy has worked well.

Has it really? The War of Dakka, the Farsight Enclaves, Dark Eldar predations, Tyranid Splinter Fleets...these are but mere preludes to the storm that the Imperium and the Eldar constantly face.

If they're evil because they're willing to use violence to get things that they want, then there is no such thing as a good nation. Hell, the United States must be evil, since it went to war to prevent the South from seceding. Using violence to ensure the well-being of your society does not = evil. It's how you orchestrate that violence that defines its morality. In the Tau's case, they use violence only as an absolute last resort, and even when they do go to war, they go out of their way to avoid collateral damage. They don't engage in genocide, they don't bombard planetary populations into dust.

The only grimdark things about them is that you're stuck in the Caste you're born into, and the nonsensical hypothesis regarding the Ethereals controlling them with pheremones. Beyond that, they're hardly evil or grimdark. They're Space Communists.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. In the context of the setting, they're in for a rude awakening one day, and that will make their history even more tragic in hindsight.

Their Empire has already persisted for roughly 300 years. There will be no rude awakening because they have already seen some of the worst that the galaxy has to offer.
People mention how the Tau got duped by the Dark Eldar and the Necrons and call the naive. But unlike the Imperium of Man which can rely on a million worlds, the Tau gain more from actively seeking
out allies than from battling everyone who looks a bit strange. So far this strategy has worked well.

Has it really? The War of Dakka, the Farsight Enclaves, Dark Eldar predations, Tyranid Splinter Fleets...these are but mere preludes to the storm that the Imperium and the Eldar constantly face.

He has a point. The Eldar have been round for a few million yrs, and the IOM has been around for 15,000 yrs. The tau as a species have only been around for 5000 yrs, and have only been united for 500 yrs.

Has it really? The War of Dakka, the Farsight Enclaves, Dark Eldar predations, Tyranid Splinter Fleets...

Of course to Tau are gunna be naieve, being the youngest race in 40k by about 54,000 yrs. Look how the eldar messed up (The Fall), and they are millions of year older than the tau, and their mistake was about a gillion times bigger.

BlaxicanX wrote:
If

The nonsensical hypothesis regarding the Ethereals controlling them with pheremones. Beyond that, they're hardly evil or grimdark. They're Space Communists.

you mean the one thats referenced in the Tau Codex page 9.......

The Tau are def no worse than the other factions - they are arguably far lessevil than the others - although as noted - Orks / Tryanids are not Evil - what they do often is.

however thre are things I feel yet to be revelaed and as they more and more come into contact with the darker elements of the 40K universe its likely they will change and evolve - probably not for the best.

The Tau are not ggod they are smart. They realize they are outnumbered and outgunned so any help they can get is useful. I really feel fluffwise that the Tau represent the fledgling empire the Necrons, Eldar, and Imperium once were.

Also evil is subjective in 40k it really depends upon your point of view.

If they were not hyper organised under a single system they would not be sufficiently powerful to be relevant

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
If they were not hyper organised under a single system they would not be sufficiently powerful to be relevant

Technically, the same could be said about the Humans and every other faction.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
If they were not hyper organised under a single system they would not be sufficiently powerful to be relevant

Right now, at least. Skip forward (yeah right, as if GW would ever advance the plot) a few hundred/thousand years as Tau technology continues to develop while everyone else is static or decaying, and a single gun drone (now with god-level AI) conquers the remains of the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

And that's the whole purpose of the Tau in the setting: they represent the countless younger empires that constantly threaten to rise up and claim domination over the galaxy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
If they were not hyper organised under a single system they would not be sufficiently powerful to be relevant

Right now, at least. Skip forward (yeah right, as if GW would ever advance the plot) a few hundred/thousand years as Tau technology continues to develop while everyone else is static or decaying, and a single gun drone (now with god-level AI) conquers the remains of the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

Assuming said AI doesn't go the way of the Men of Iron...

In all seriousness, the Tau are definitely not communists, or fascists. They are much more like a tribal society.

One of the main principles of communism is that everyone is equal. This is so far from the truth with the Tau, there is a strict social hierarchy, with the 'O at the top, then the 'El etc...

Also, they do not have a single central organisation. The entire "empire" is a collection of autonomous septs, no way governed by a single entity. the closest the Tau have is Aun'va, the space pope, who merely advises and guides the different castes and septs. Even then, the different castes are largely independent of each-other in organisation. They work together for the greater good, but are free to make their own decisions. This is entirely different from the rigid central control typical of communist and fascist regimes.

This also translates to the cadre level, as the cadres are essentially sub-tribes. Overall, the cadres are relatively free to make their on decisions, merely being guided by the etherials. As long as what they are doing is for the greater good, they can pursue their own goals.

Additionally, there has been virtually no fluff regarding freedoms given to the average Tau. It is entirely possible that they have quite free lives. They can choose partners (as long as they are the same cast ). Even the humans brought into the empire are quite free. They are still allowed to worship the emperor as a god, as long as they recognise the greater good. Even the fact that etherials control the Tau through pheremones is largely up in the air. The point is, knowbody knows how the Tau are controlled, if they are at all. perhaps they just believe in the greater good.

Rant Over

Principals does not equal practice.

Chinese are learning this despite best efforts at controlling info flow. Princelings crashing their Italian supercars while other regions revolt over local officials turned developers force farmers off their land.

Im also sure everyone was not equal during Stalin's purges or under the subsequent Soviet Union.

Best protections anyone has is free press, open democracy that debates anything, including politically incorrect subjects, rule of law, independent judiciary and separation of power. Not perfect but best we have.

Counter-rant over.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Principals does not equal practice.

Chinese are learning this despite best efforts at controlling info flow. Princelings crashing their Italian supercars while other regions revolt over local officials turned developers force farmers off their land.

Im also sure everyone was not equal during Stalin's purges or under the subsequent Soviet Union.

Best protections anyone has is free press, open democracy that debates anything, including politically incorrect subjects, rule of law, independent judiciary and separation of power. Not perfect but best we have.

Counter-rant over.

Well, yeah, but the tau are aliens, and may differ. They probably think, and thus act, in an entirely different manner on the marco scale.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Principals does not equal practice.

Chinese are learning this despite best efforts at controlling info flow. Princelings crashing their Italian supercars while other regions revolt over local officials turned developers force farmers off their land.

Im also sure everyone was not equal during Stalin's purges or under the subsequent Soviet Union.

Best protections anyone has is free press, open democracy that debates anything, including politically incorrect subjects, rule of law, independent judiciary and separation of power. Not perfect but best we have.

Counter-rant over.

Yes, but Soviet Russia and China were both created with the intention to adhere to the ideals of communism, the Tau never had such ideals. They are miles away from the "theoretical" communist state, and they are also nothing like the communist states we have had. People just hear "for the greater good" and decide to label the Tau as commies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
If they were not hyper organised under a single system they would not be sufficiently powerful to be relevant

Right now, at least. Skip forward (yeah right, as if GW would ever advance the plot) a few hundred/thousand years as Tau technology continues to develop while everyone else is static or decaying, and a single gun drone (now with god-level AI) conquers the remains of the Imperium out of sheer boredom.

And that's the whole purpose of the Tau in the setting: they represent the countless younger empires that constantly threaten to rise up and claim domination over the galaxy.

The problem is, when you fast forward that far, the Tau homeworlds are lifeless rocks that were eaten by Tyranids, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Tau are definitely not communist. They're a totalitarian oligarchy. There definitely strong fascist cues too, but not enough to identify the, strictly as fascists. But they come close.

There's only a very superficial resemblance to communism.

Its very hard to answer the question because we need to agree on what good is.

Do Tau get a chance to express dissatisfaction via political means, or are the vested interests secure short of revolution?

Is so, are the vested interests 'taking care' of the broader Tau community, in a sort of benevolent dictator fashion?

Can Tau 'engage' their lifes fully?
Do they form strong bonds?
Do they seek deep and prolonged pleasures, or excess?
Are they responsible, do they deal with hard truths and respect balance?

To me these sorts of things determine whether they are 'good' or not.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The problem is, when you fast forward that far, the Tau homeworlds are lifeless rocks that were eaten by Tyranids, lol.

Hive fleet Gorgon tired that, and was ground to a halt. something about the tau coming up with new weapon systems to counter the tyranid defensive evolution in a similar rate.

And that's way before the taros war, where the Tau unvailed new powerful weapon systems, from the 81, 84, 88 and 89 battlesuits, to new hammerhead setups, new targeting systems (tetra) and new 25 suits (may be the same as 15 in game rules, but in fluff they are far more effective.)

At the current state, a small tyrnid fleet such as gorgon would be quickly disposed off. only a major one can threat them, and even that only if it happens soon. Tau technological advancement race is higher then the humans had during the emperor's days.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Hive fleet Gorgon tired that, and was ground to a halt. something about the tau coming up with new weapon systems to counter the tyranid defensive evolution in a similar rate.

Untrue. Gorgon was pretty cool with OMNOMNOMNOMing the Tau until the Necrons and the IG showed up and saved the blue guys.

I like the Tau, their like the reverse foil that makes the 40K universe that much more grimmer and darker.
Course their still a brutal regime by RL standards, but compared to other races, their the f@cking tooth fairy who saves the whales.

The tau are not out of place and they are most certainly not brainwashed or anything like that. they are simply a race who sees a problem and is trying to fix it through a uniting cause. and the brainwashing, loo at the combat rules for the tau. if an ethereal is brought and dies, would it not make sense for all tau to disband not grieve? ya they do give you an option. option being join or die, which like stated earlier, is also in imperial history.

Its more of a mix of panic and rage then a grieve response....

They ARE bound to ethereals, but in a natural way, just like bee drones are tied to the bee queen.

Nothing suspicius goes there, they are just naturally fixed to care for the ethereals just as humans are naturally fixed to care for their children.

Nothing Suspicious to see, move along now - its all fine and in the name of the Greater Good

The Codex and other source material implies a level of control but never flat out states it.................helps keeps forums alive neh?

AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Hive fleet Gorgon tired that, and was ground to a halt. something about the tau coming up with new weapon systems to counter the tyranid defensive evolution in a similar rate.

Untrue. Gorgon was pretty cool with OMNOMNOMNOMing the Tau until the Necrons and the IG showed up and saved the blue guys.

in 760902.M41 an Imperial fleet emerged from the Warp and immediately besieged Ke'lshan, unaware that their warp journey had taken one hundred and fifty years and the Damocles Crusade they were dispatched to fight in had already come to an end. Castellan Crask's Cadian XVIIIth were deployed to begin the invasion. Valroth and his fleet were diverted to engage the newly arrived Imperial fleet. In 785902.M41 Gorgon descended upon Kel'shan and joined the already underway battle. Now faced with a common enemy, Crask and Valroth agreed to a truce and together their fleets turned on Gorgon, destroying close to all of its bio-ships. Gorgon, unique for its ability to rapidly evolve its bioforms, was unable to adapt quickly enough to the disparate nature of the Tau and Imperial Guard forces combined, and from 011903.M41-490903.M41 the Tyranids were purged from the surface of Ke'lshan. At the Battle of Worldspine Ridge in 500903.M41 the last Dominatrix and Hive Tyrant were slain and Hive Fleet Gorgon came to an end. The truce between the Imperium and the Tau also ended shortly after.

Known for its evolutionary speed, Gorgon would have beaten down any single race. Tau shut down Gorgon because some IG contigent arrived late to the Damocles party. To be fair, any single race would have lost to Gorgon. For example, had Gorgon attacked first instead of Behemoth, Ultramarines would have gone the way of Scythes of the Emperor as their bolter rounds would have become increasingly ineffective and Earth itself would have been attacked.

Mr Morden wrote:Nothing Suspicious to see, move along now - its all fine and in the name of the Greater Good

The Codex and other source material implies a level of control but never flat out states it.................helps keeps forums alive neh?

These passages are written from the perspective of the imperium. It never flat out states it because it's an imperial theory based on nothing but the fact that the imperium can't fathom such a level of devotion to be voluntary. "They MUST be exerting some form of mind control! How else could they be so loyal?! It's not fair!!!"

not always - its the Tau Codex after all - the bit about controlling the Vespid seems to be from with the Empire - certainly its doubtful the Imperium know anything about it.........

To me it seems that the Etherials have some form of control - however its not clear that this is a bad thing for the Tau- although again we have no idea of what the Greater Good would look like in its ultimate form..... The Farsight situation also seems to be interesting in its implications

Again I look towards the Ashan from Stargate for inspiration as to how the Tau will deal with those races that will not accept their place even when conquered.

Anyway as they expand and encounter races with whom there is simply no comprimise that can be made, it would/ will be intersting to see how they evolve. Previously it was all races can have a place - now they understand that the Orks and the Tryanids can not and must simply be exterminated or at best sealed off somehow. The Dark Eldar have noticed and began "playing" with them....and if the Eldar see them as good thing - its just as likely the Necrons may see them as a pawn of their ancient enemy.

I think the Tau are a great addition to the 40K universe and like the ambiguaity of them

Why do Canadian cities have so much less street violence than their US counterparts?
Obviously pheromones emitted by Canadian politicians that mind control the population! Culture? Nonsense!

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its more of a mix of panic and rage then a grieve response....

They ARE bound to ethereals, but in a natural way, just like bee drones are tied to the bee queen.

Nothing suspicius goes there, they are just naturally fixed to care for the ethereals just as humans are naturally fixed to care for their children.

That more sums up what i was trying to say. any bonding they have is a natural one. the tau unity story even seems to point to this. the tribes are fighting each other then a mystical tau comes along and ends the war near instantly. almost like a pre-made safety measure to stop them from killing themselves and having them recognize a central authority. sort of like our current recognition of mutually assured destruction. we dont kill each other because we have a big grey cloud looming over us. they had no way to reign it in and where going to kill themselves off until suddenly something came along that made them not want to. it doesnt have to be bad either, they could be inspired by the good just like we can be.