To all Tau players, from a Tyranid player, I'm so sorry. Assuming the rumor is true that is. Thoughts?
http://natfka.blogspot.jp/2012/10/release-schedule-rumors-news-sometimes.html

Hmm wonder if Tau will go from bad to worse due to that...

He also did Guard, which is similar in a lot of ways to Tau and dominated 5th Ed play for quite a while.

Jefffar wrote:
He also did Guard, which is similar in a lot of ways to Tau and dominated 5th Ed play for quite a while.

Speaking as a Guard player though, the codex has really crappy internal balance. For every veteran squad, we have penal legion. For every Manticore, we've got the eradicator.

Some units are just way too good for their points (vendetta) while others are laughably overpriced (Ogryn, pretty much any special character)

Just because our codex is seen as competitive doesn't mean people should want him writing the Tau one.

What other codices did he write? The fact that he also wrote IG makes me wonder how he could have possibly priced stuff in the Tyranid codex the way he did without pre-meditated malice.

I haven't read the IG codex fluff but is it as bad as the Tyranid stuff? I wouldn't wish Cruddace on any army going by the codex I read.

IG and Nidz considered, it could go either way if correct

Jefffar wrote:
He also did Guard, which is similar in a lot of ways to Tau and dominated 5th Ed play for quite a while.

And 6th... damn cheap Flyers

I think that Tau can't get worse than they are already.
But they are not weak now at all with allies, this one guy at 40k tournament win with his Eldar allies quite easy.

This is his army and how he played:



I should mentioned that Fire Warriors with Eldrad beat Bloodthrster in close combat.
Everyone else he just shoot down from his cover - even Tyranids. ( it was funny seeing how Chaos Daemons spawned right in front of Tau defense only to disappear next moment ).

. . . So he sat in a corner and rolled dice . . . sounds exciting. Just because you can win with a codex doesn't make it a good one.

 60mm wrote:
. . . So he sat in a corner and rolled dice . . . sounds exciting. Just because you can win with a codex doesn't make it a good one.

Agreed, as proven you can win with any codex. Still some are good and others bad

 60mm wrote:
What other codices did he write? The fact that he also wrote IG makes me wonder how he could have possibly priced stuff in the Tyranid codex the way he did without pre-meditated malice.

I haven't read the IG codex fluff but is it as bad as the Tyranid stuff? I wouldn't wish Cruddace on any army going by the codex I read.

Nothing new or worth writing home about. There are some ridiculous events in there, like one where a DKoK regiment shelled a city for 6 years, 4 years of which were after the last signs of life had disappeared.

But he win against everyone on that tournament - even Necrons.
This just proves that Tau are not that weak in 6'th edition. Main advantage was Eldrad who gave rerolls for every miss to his FW's and 88's ( he can because they are battle brothers ), that put a lot of things down.
He only lost against a guy who used artillery

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But he win against everyone on that tournament - even Necrons.
This just proves that Tau are not that weak in 6'th edition. Main advantage was Eldrad who gave rerolls for every miss to his FW's and 88's ( he can because they are battle brothers ), that put a lot of things down.
He only lost against a guy who used artillery

No, that shows that one specific build, that required allies as a significant part of his list, is strong.

That's like saying IG are awesome at assault because we can take space wolf allies.

The tau codex as a whole is a weaker codex, but mainly because it's 2 editions out of date, and half their rules either no longer exist, or don't do what they used to (fleet for examplE)

They need an update badly, at the very least so that people can take more than 1 specific build without failing horribly. The question is if Cruddance will make the codex fairly balanced internally (there's no autotakes and no horrible ones) and balanced externally (not curbstomping every codex out there and not getting stomped by every codex either.)

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But he win against everyone on that tournament - even Necrons.
This just proves that Tau are not that weak in 6'th edition. Main advantage was Eldrad who gave rerolls for every miss to his FW's and 88's ( he can because they are battle brothers ), that put a lot of things down.
He only lost against a guy who used artillery

I suppose you mean Prescience, from the divination BRB Psy powers. Tau are that weak in 6th, they do pull out wins but so do other codexes that are bad. Just less common than the top tier codexes.

It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

nomotog wrote:
It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

Imagine Nids without MC's, 6 wounds, and T6, and no Psy powers.

The future of Tau

i know their codex is old 2 editions but this tournament proves that Tau still can won it if the guy commanding them plays smart. After two editions Tau really deserve an upgrade and I hope it will be a decent one.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

Imagine Nids without MC's, 6 wounds, and T6, and no Psy powers.

The future of Tau

And what is that in tau terms?

nomotog wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

Imagine Nids without MC's, 6 wounds, and T6, and no Psy powers.

The future of Tau

And what is that in tau terms?

Replace the Tau firewarrior plasma rifle with "lasguns"

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

nomotog wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

Imagine Nids without MC's, 6 wounds, and T6, and no Psy powers.

The future of Tau

And what is that in tau terms?

Replace the Tau firewarrior plasma rifle with "lasguns"

NOOOO!.. Wait, don't lasguns have more range then the pulse rifle? That wouldn't be too bad. Not all that fun, but not too bad.

nomotog wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

nomotog wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It's a codex two edition out of date. Most of the FAQ is just telling you stuff is no longer available, or that it dose nothing. What's the worst that could happen?

Imagine Nids without MC's, 6 wounds, and T6, and no Psy powers.

The future of Tau

And what is that in tau terms?

Replace the Tau firewarrior plasma rifle with "lasguns"

NOOOO!.. Wait, don't lasguns have more range then the pulse rifle? That wouldn't be too bad. Not all that fun, but not too bad.

Lasgun Str3 ap- 24" rapid fire from memory.
Flashlights for a reason

Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Oh that would be bad. (I was thinking they got bumped to 42" range.)

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Sisters was before or after the Nids codex?

nomotog wrote:
Oh that would be bad. (I was thinking they got bumped to 42" range.)

My god I wish.

There's a reason IG brings liek a 160 lasguns to a fight.

We have like a 1/18 chance to kill a regular tactical marine per shot

Yeah, even if cruddace writes it like gaurd rather than nids, it'll still be bad. A handful of golden units sitting on a pile of gak isn't a good codex.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Sisters was before or after the Nids codex?

The Sister's white dwarf update came out a year after 5th edition Nids

Man, I thought that people hated Ward.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

So did Ward.

The problem is both Cruddace and Ward (even moreso Ward) intentionally underpower armies that they don't like and they buff the ones they do.

Ex: Cruddace liked Guard, so Guard are good. Didn't like Tyranids, so Tyranids are pretty bad.
Ex2: Ward really liked Daemons and Grey Knights, so they were both game-breakingly good. He thought O&G were silly, and as a result they were incredibly terrible.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Sisters was before or after the Nids codex?

The Sister's white dwarf update came out a year after 5th edition Nids

So there's a trend.

he's getting worse >.<

I actually rate them in order of publication, from 1,2,3.

Can he continue his downward spiral?

RegalPhantom wrote:
Man, I thought that people hated Ward.

People hate Ward's fluff and overpowered units, but internally his Codices tend to be fairly balanced (that's not to say they're balanced externally, but that's another can of worms).

Cruddace just throws a bunch of things in and sees what sticks and his unit pricing is terrible. Of the last 3 Dexes he did, the only truly good one is Imperial Guard whereas Nids and Sisters are "decent" but fairly limited.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Nah, the Sisters WDdex is pretty strong. It's just very, very small.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Nah, the Sisters WDdex is pretty strong. It's just very, very small.

Well it was printed in a magazine.

Exactly.

I really don't know how the next codex will turn out. The few good units amongst a bunch or fail is pretty much where it stands now. I'm just really worried that they'll nerf what's good now and makes it at least playable.

I'm still pissed when Ward made the comment that "Even an elite shooty army like Tau will be jealous of Necron's firepower"

I think that if Ward got his hands on the Tau codex he would try to nerf Railguns to S8 AP2, give the Plasma Rifles the Gets Hot rule, and reduce the range on the Pulse rifle to 20".

I think its best to wait and see where this all leads... From what I understood the GW design studio was getting more collaborative with its rules, so maybe that'll neuter some of.Cruddance's cruddy writing.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't know how the next codex will turn out. The few good units amongst a bunch or fail is pretty much where it stands now. I'm just really worried that they'll nerf what's good now and makes it at least playable.

I'm still pissed when Ward made the comment that "Even an elite shooty army like Tau will be jealous of Necron's firepower"

I think that if Ward got his hands on the Tau codex he would try to nerf Railguns to S8 AP2, give the Plasma Rifles the Gets Hot rule, and reduce the range on the Pulse rifle to 20".

Oh come on now, Rail Guns would be 8,1. Plasmas would be 6,3 no gets hot. Pulse rifle would be 24"

Still god aweful but still ><

Sigh, two of my armies are gonna get neutered according to the rumours.
Cruddace - Tau
Ward - Dark Angels

They could go the other way and make things OP.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

Nah, the Sisters WDdex is pretty strong. It's just very, very small.

It's average, the problem is that it has horrible, horrible internal balance and some completely stupid idea's.

Only able to use powers in your turn, not to mention not having a scaling power for games, and inability to retry powers in a turn

SC's far better and actually far cheaper than your normal HQ?

Battle sisters at 10 per squad and can take an Immolator that they can't fit in? And being pretty damn pricy for their statline as well.

Immolators losing Fast?

Inferno Bolts only for the Immolator with no options for it on other heavy bolters in the army.

Celestians being the same cost as a Grey Hunter yet being FAR worse and with an ability that only makes them "Barely" able to match space marine and can still only take two special weapons?

Condemnor Boltguns being completely useless.

No new units actually being added, while having a ton of options ripped out.

Sisters did seem like a completely unplanned update to me. Like they suddenly realized that they had one unit in two different armies with different costs and options. And their best option was to just remove it from the dex and accidently spilled to much white out. Then when they tried filling in the blanks, they realized nobody knew or played them and just started slapping in random rules.

I consider it a real slap in the face. Taking away and giving nothing in return. And again, the whole thing with having a dedicated transport too small to hold the dedicated unit really shows that.

My friend has had a sisters army for years and the WD codex so depressed him he gave them up and went to BA, cant say i blame him i played the WD sisters and easily cleared the table.

I hear the whole reason tau is taking so long to come out is that no one in the design studio really likes them and so they probably drew straws and cruddace lost.

Its a shame for the fans that their army being good/bad all depends on how the writer feels about them, when it'd make much more sense business wise to do the best you can on every army as you'd get more sales.

The funny thing is cruddance does okay stuff in fantasy, but he does horrible in 40k.

If the person working on the codex doesn't like it, it'll be sure to be bad. The chaos space marine codex turned out to be crushingly average, so they clearly didn't put much time into making it interesting, besides adding in random expensive daemon engines that they can sell for lots of money.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Cruddace also wrote the Sisters of Battle WD codex, which wasn't exactly a graceful addition...

To be fair, he probably did it under orders to kill off the army and ensure that all of the veteran SoB players ragequit and sell their armies so they'll have to buy the new SoB models when they get a proper update.

While that's certainly a possibility, considering the lack of new units it's probably just meant as a stopgap to change the glaring problems (old 3rd edition pricing and rules) and remove the inquisition so there wouldn't be two different stats between it and Codex Grey Knights (even though the battle conclave is just a gak version of henchmen)

Are there writers that 'we' do like?

 Krellnus wrote:
Sigh, two of my armies are gonna get neutered according to the rumours.
Cruddace - Tau
Ward - Dark Angels

Uh. Rumors say Dark Angels will be SM+Awesome

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Are there writers that 'we' do like?

In theory, but I haven't seen it in practice.

nomotog wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Are there writers that 'we' do like?

In theory, but I haven't seen it in practice.

They all have flaws, each one has produced overpowered codex's, some have revealed crap, some have made poor dex's. Going to count just the 40k.

Cruddance has the lowest rate amongst the ones due to his track record. OP (IG) UP (Tyranids) Complete Meh (SoB), but at the same time his internal balance is just as bad and there's no real customization because choices in his dex are "Auto-take" due to how good they are, or how poor.

Ward has a better rate, but due to the hate that diverged down from TG he's been hated ever since Space marines come out. He's got a higher OP track rate, but he has never made an UP dex. OP: (Necrons, Grey Knights), Medium (Space Marines, Blood Angels). His internal dex is mostly better than kelly or cruddance, but there's still a few bad issues (Such as purifiers cheaper wargear rate compared to troops)

Kelly has a rate that switches constantly. He has made UP, OP, and Meh, but he has horrible, horrible internal balance. The problem with his dex's often is that they don't age well sometimes, despite being blisteringly OP. Such as the fact that Eldar was horribly OP back in 4th due to skimmerspam but at same time, it showed its age very quickly, however he has made the one perfect dex of 40k so far, that being Orks. Originally OP (Eldar), OP (Space wolves), Good (Orks, DE, but DE didn't age well into 6th), and meh (Chaos).

Cruddance being the worst, nobody wants him to write their dex. People want ward because they know it'll at least be middle tier and the rest wants that sweet OP spot, Kelly can write a good book, but half the options will be crap and the other half will be either very good, or showing that it's meh, or it'll be middle realm.

If Kelly can just do what he did with orks for all his other codexes, he'd be great. He just needs to write his codexes exactly like he did orks.

Honestly I'd say Kelly is the best, you can't blame him for aging issues, and truely the only bad book hes given us is space wolves, but thats because he is a xenos writer forced to do a space marine book.

As for Chaos, I'd say that itis indicative of the new direction of the studio rather than his own writing. Compare the Chaos book to any of the hardcover Fantasy books and you can see that they are going for a more "tame" direction than matt wards craziness in his books would have otherwise implied.

Didn't Ward slaughter (fantasy) orks?

Im scared to research who that is.......

Hopefully, if he is writing this codex, it'll be the way of IG rather than SoB and Nids. IG at least has plenty of options and is sort of diverse. SoB is pretty bareboned and Nids look like Cruddy went, "Oh boy, I'm going to make these guys the most diverse codex ever!" and then ran out of steam halfway through the wargear options for the Hive Tyrant.

Oh, Cruddance does like IG. So maybe there will be some terrible Gue'vesa units in the list too. With nothing but lasgun options and over priced special weapoins, BS 3 of course for balance.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Honestly I'd say Kelly is the best, you can't blame him for aging issues, and truely the only bad book hes given us is space wolves, but thats because he is a xenos writer forced to do a space marine book.
.

Just not true. Dark Eldar has probably the worst fluff of any 40K Codex in the last 10 years or so with it's horrid loony-toons-black-hole in a box writing. Not to mention that it took the boredom of Long Fang spam to a whole new level with the even more ridiculous Venom Spam. I sometimes wonder why he even bothered including other stuff.

4th Edition Eldar more or less broke that edition with Cheese-Falcons. I am still scratch my had who anyone with even the remotest knowledge of 40K could sign off an assault unit like Mutilators.

They guy has been with Games Workshop for what? 10 years or so, and he's consistently proven that he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's doing. Let him do DreadFleet 2 and be done with it.

If he could just write anouther codex like orks... DE was actually well-balanced in 5th, but 6th gimped it hilariously.

Hideous internal balance thouhg, exactly like almost every odex - well, eveything bar orks - he has done

The mandatory 10 points upgrade on a venom to DOUBLE its shooting power? Unlocking dirt cheap, surprisingly durable troops with an HQ that you want anyway? then you have the downside...bloodbrides not being worth their points over their scoring sisiters, etc.

 Krellnus wrote:
Sigh, two of my armies are gonna get neutered according to the rumours.
Cruddace - Tau
Ward - Dark Angels

Tau with decent Fluff, somewhat odd unit choices. Overall bland and likely like the WD SOB dex; bland and somewhat static in list making.

DA with secret weapons like the Darkness Power Fists. Also they find a secret chamber in the rock with jetbikes and dark matter engines to make all their vehicles waaaaaay better than all those other guys and they have like these darkness shroud generators which make them look like shadows... Oh! they also use assassins now to hunt the fallen, like DCA but in power armour and cool like Chaplains... Yeah, Assassin Chaplains! That like ignore difficult terrain, move like jump infantry, and have these darkness blades which count as AP3 and ignore invul saves completely!

Furyou Miko wrote:Nah, the Sisters WDdex is pretty strong. It's just very, very small.

I suppose a more accurate description might be "pretty strong, as long as you play with one or two very specific builds". The popular, competetive lists I've seen all seem to be built around Celestine or the "Uriahbomb", neither of whom are even true Battle Sister characters.

It kinda fits in with what MrMoustaffa mentioned earlier about the internal balance and unit pricing issues. Makes me wonder what part of the Minidex was more due to Ward and what due to Cruddace.

Coyote81 wrote:Oh, Cruddance does like IG. So maybe there will be some terrible Gue'vesa units in the list too.

That would be cool, indeed. I hope he's actually aware of them already having had rules at some point - with other people writing stuff than their original designer, I often feel as if they may not be aware of some detail. GW published a lot of stuff over the years, it'd be pretty easy to miss something, even for GW people themselves.

That's an interesting link in the OP, considering what I heard at my local GW store.

The store manager told me, a Tau player, that the Tau codex is 'done'. And has been for a few months.

His source of information from another GW manager (in a different state), that he met at the national/regional store managers meeting. Apparently, the person writing the new Tau codex, lives in the area, and stopped in and mentioned it.

I doubt the above, last I checked the design studio was in Nottingham, UK.

But he's a store manager told by another store manager... Seems pretty legit from here.

A Tau codex pretty much needs human auxiliaries (And they don't even need new models; Cadians work just fine). Without them, it's just not fluffy.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Just not true. Dark Eldar has probably the worst fluff of any 40K Codex in the last 10 years or so with it's horrid loony-toons-black-hole in a box writing.

Really? I genuinely enjoyed the Dark Eldar codex. I thought it was some of the best fluff of a 40k codex, especially considering the pitiful fluff the Dark Eldar had before. Stuff like regenerating from body parts really helped to flesh out their faction. As for the black hole in a box, they're meant to be the fair folk; weird "magic" like that put to a spiteful and petty use only makes sense.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Not to mention that it took the boredom of Long Fang spam to a whole new level with the even more ridiculous Venom Spam. I sometimes wonder why he even bothered including other stuff.

IIRC, Venomspam wasn't that bad before 6th Edition nerfed the rest of the codex into the ground.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I doubt the above, last I checked the design studio was in Nottingham, UK.

Does that mean that all of the employees live in the UK?

We live in the digital age.

1068SCP wrote:A Tau codex pretty much needs human auxiliaries (And they don't even need new models; Cadians work just fine). Without them, it's just not fluffy.

Well ...
A Tau Codex without Tau would be "not fluffy", but auxiliaries are just an add-on to the main force and as such Gue'vesa would indeed be optional. Even Kroot and Vespids are not a "must have" per se.
It's the same as with Space Marines and Scouts, Imperial Guard and Ogryns, or Sisters of Battle and Frateris Militia.

Having Gue'vesa in the Codex would still fit better to the Tau background, though, in that it incorporates options that are connected to their Empire's background.

As for the Dark Eldar, I guess I'm somewhere in the middle in that I like some of the new writing, but find certain bits rather OTT.

FenixZero wrote:Does that mean that all of the employees live in the UK?
We live in the digital age.

From my experience, writing and creative development still tends to have people move together, just because video meetings tend to be not as awesome as the real stuff, and it's better when you can just get together with a project partner to discuss new ideas in person rather than via some text chat or e-mail. There are actual "brainstorming" offices with comfy couches just for that sort of stuff: chilling and talking. For GW, I would also assume that the designers actually play a couple games to try out their rules internally before (if) it's even released to a bunch of beta players.

Of course, if the designers do not actually playtest the army they designed themselves it would explain a couple weird things, so who knows.

FenixZero wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I doubt the above, last I checked the design studio was in Nottingham, UK.

Does that mean that all of the employees live in the UK?

We live in the digital age.

Yep, and the design studio are still all based in Notts. Should know, given my friend is a junior games designer there...

So no, your "source" is wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I doubt the above, last I checked the design studio was in Nottingham, UK.

Does that mean that all of the employees live in the UK?

We live in the digital age.

Yep, and the design studio are still all based in Notts. Should know, given my friend is a junior games designer there...

So no, your "source" is wrong.

Just relaying what I heard, no sweat off my back.

I personally want more models, but I would be happy with what we have costed correctly/better and some of the core designs updated. Like transports, and point limits on certain characters.

Just thought of a phrase for Cruddaces terrible codexs...
Crudex:
Currently includes Nids and SoB, soon to be added Tau.
Now I don't like to use them as an example but Privateer Press have a better collaboration when it comes to army books as though the books (I believe) are written by different writers they are all particularly balanced. Simply put get the Forgeworld team to write the Codexes....

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Just thought of a phrase for Cruddaces terrible codexs...
Crudex:
Currently includes Nids and SoB, soon to be added Tau.
Now I don't like to use them as an example but Privateer Press have a better collaboration when it comes to army books as though the books (I believe) are written by different writers they are all particularly balanced. Simply put get the Forgeworld team to write the Codexes....

Also Imperial Guard, which is terrible in the opposite manner (OP)

Yes, something is way off when we trn to forgeworld for balance, when it was once the source of "wacky, unstable rules"

FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

A few oddlot combinations that turn out more powerful then intended I would have understood, but have more things that are out of balance, either strong or weak, then tings that are in balance is plain odd, is someone even TESTING these stuff in a serious matter? or reading it even?

Just take Tau for an example, it was written by some andy guy, but it sends the message of "is anyone looking into it" across, a quick list of things that make no sense:
1-An army who is shooy-centric (make that "shooty-only"), BS3 standard.
2-Gun drones cheaper as wargear then as a unit.
3-Phirana depends on distance to survive, yet needs to get VERY close to attack. (counter-productive much?)
4-Pathfinders? a static fast attack unit. brillent. (and requires to take a transport to boot, except using it renders them useless for the turn they disembark...)
5-The seeker missile, equal to the SM krak upgrade in power and cost require a markerlight to fire.
6-Broadside plasma "upgrade" actually reduces kill rate on almost everything. (only if the enemy is like a Sv2+ with no invul and within 12'' it pays off.)
7-Vespid, an assualt unit with guardsmen worth of WS and S. (good I5 and HoW dont help if you cant kill anything.)
8-Etheral, carries a risk of sending your own unit running away. (I get it that the tau are shocked, but isn't running away a bit overkill? you brought the guy to a warzone!)
9-the massive hammerhead railgun is less potent the tiny broadside ones at solid shots. (give it melta or something x_x)
10-Sniper drones, got a SFG but can't infiltrate, or scout move, or SOMETHING? the thing is far harder to see then scouts!

And that's just right off my head.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, something is way off when we trn to forgeworld for balance, when it was once the source of "wacky, unstable rules"

FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

A few oddlot combinations that turn out more powerful then intended I would have understood, but have more things that are out of balance, either strong or weak, then tings that are in balance is plain odd, is someone even TESTING these stuff in a serious matter? or reading it even?

Just take Tau for an example, it was written by some andy guy, but it sends the message of "is anyone looking into it" across, a quick list of things that make no sense:
1-An army who is shooy-centric (make that "shooty-only"), BS3 standard.
2-Gun drones cheaper as wargear then as a unit.
3-Phirana depends on distance to survive, yet needs to get VERY close to attack. (counter-productive much?)
4-Pathfinders? a static fast attack unit. brillent. (and requires to take a transport to boot, except using it renders them useless for the turn they disembark...)
5-The seeker missile, equal to the SM krak upgrade in power and cost require a markerlight to fire.
6-Broadside plasma "upgrade" actually reduces kill rate on almost everything. (only if the enemy is like a Sv2+ with no invul and within 12'' it pays off.)
7-Vespid, an assualt unit with guardsmen worth of WS and S. (good I5 and HoW dont help if you cant kill anything.)
8-Etheral, carries a risk of sending your own unit running away. (I get it that the tau are shocked, but isn't running away a bit overkill? you brought the guy to a warzone!)
9-the massive hammerhead railgun is less potent the tiny broadside ones at solid shots. (give it melta or something x_x)
10-Sniper drones, got a SFG but can't infiltrate, or scout move, or SOMETHING? the thing is far harder to see then scouts!

And that's just right off my head.

Which is funny because in it's hay day Tau was the top codex. Its just gotten outdated is all.

The fact it was good in it's day does not change the fact all the things I just said makes no sense and should have been pointed out from a single reading of the codex.

I didn't claim the Tau codex dont have some nice things in it, some very good even to this day. but its just makes no freaking sense!

Okay, I've got to stand up for the guard codex here. I think cruddance did a really good job on it. He didn't screw up the fluff, and he added a LOT of new stuff, most of which was pretty good. I take particular offense to comments like...

loota boy wrote:Yeah, even if cruddace writes it like gaurd rather than nids, it'll still be bad. A handful of golden units sitting on a pile of gak isn't a good codex.

... which I find grossly inaccurate. The guard codex isn't perfect, but because, after nearly 5 years, there are some power gamers who only play what has been determined to be the cheesiest stuff in the codex does NOT make the whole codex bad. Every codex undergoes this kind of powergamer slide over time, you have to look at the REST of the codex to see its merits.

And the rest of the guard codex is generally pretty good. I mean, in the old guard codex there were THREE heavy support vehicles. In the current one there are FOURTEEN. Most of them are pretty well done too. Interesting, fluffy, have their niche role that they do well, and are appropriately priced. The perhaps three of them that are done poorly doesn't change the fact that the other eleven are great.

Plus, look at the codex holistically here. You can play guard as a foot horde, as a mech list, or as air cav (amongst other styles). You can show up with a lot of tanks or a lot of artillery. You can play an army where practically everything outflanks. There is a lot you can still do with the guard codex. I've yet to see many other codices age so well as the current guard codex.

Yes, if cruddance does it like tyranid, I'll be a little sorry, but if he does it like guard, a heartfelt congratulations is in order.

I must agree with Ailaros. If Tau get the Guard treatment, it'll be a solid, powerful codex.

Personally I will just be happy to have a new codex.

And unless its a radical re-write of everything in the Tau codex, from stats to pt cost, with horrible fluff, it will likely be a improvement.

I am so tired of my favorite army with so little meat to it, FW did more to expand on the Tau then the GW codex (fluffwise)

So I will refrain from any chicken-little sky is falling talk and just wait patiently , and be glad the Tau will finally get a update.

Well, the "Tau is getting a new codex in 6 months" thing is going on for almost 3 years now, so I would not place preorders yet...

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, the "Tau is getting a new codex in 6 months" thing is going on for almost 3 years now, so I would not place preorders yet...

lol while that might be true. Tau will have a new codex by Q3 next year, more than likely sooner but ... we know how things go.

Based on nothing omre then random rumors, who are running wild for almost 3 years now, and is always "prosponed by a few months"

I'll belive it when I see it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Based on nothing omre then random rumors, who are running wild for almost 3 years now, and is always "prosponed by a few months"

I'll belive it when I see it.

I agree. I've been getting my hopes up for almost two years that I'd be seeing something legitimate now. So far all I've seen is an update from Forgeworld that made Tetras an auto-take.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, I've got to stand up for the guard codex here. I think cruddance did a really good job on it. He didn't screw up the fluff, and he added a LOT of new stuff, most of which was pretty good. I take particular offense to comments like...

loota boy wrote:Yeah, even if cruddace writes it like gaurd rather than nids, it'll still be bad. A handful of golden units sitting on a pile of gak isn't a good codex.

... which I find grossly inaccurate. The guard codex isn't perfect, but because, after nearly 5 years, there are some power gamers who only play what has been determined to be the cheesiest stuff in the codex does NOT make the whole codex bad. Every codex undergoes this kind of powergamer slide over time, you have to look at the REST of the codex to see its merits.

And the rest of the guard codex is generally pretty good. I mean, in the old guard codex there were THREE heavy support vehicles. In the current one there are FOURTEEN. Most of them are pretty well done too. Interesting, fluffy, have their niche role that they do well, and are appropriately priced. The perhaps three of them that are done poorly doesn't change the fact that the other eleven are great.

Plus, look at the codex holistically here. You can play guard as a foot horde, as a mech list, or as air cav (amongst other styles). You can show up with a lot of tanks or a lot of artillery. You can play an army where practically everything outflanks. There is a lot you can still do with the guard codex. I've yet to see many other codices age so well as the current guard codex.

Yes, if cruddance does it like tyranid, I'll be a little sorry, but if he does it like guard, a heartfelt congratulations is in order.

Perhaps pile of sh*t isn't entirely accurate, but the internal balance just isn't great by any stretch of the immagination. It isn't that so many things are bad, it's that in every slot, there's a golden unit that just makes every other option look.. unfortunate. So many times i see in gaurd tactics and gaurd list building threads people asking about how effective X unit is, and the default response is "well, it's alright, but it competes with unit Y for the same slot, and unit Y is just hilariously better." I don't think anyone is going to say that hellhounds, valks, sentinals, and hell, even rough riders are bad, (they're all quite good) but when they sit in the same slot as the vendetta, which is just leaps and bounds better, stupidly so, that they just don't get taken. It's the same with most every slot.

Hq is all the ccs. Primaris are alright with the new psyker rules, but lord commissars only find a place in horde builds, which aren't doing well this edition. The ccs gives you access to cheap special weapons, so it's the default choice.

Troops, veterans are just so much better than most of the options. The basic troops lost most of their oomph after the loss of power blobs. A precious few people use special weapon squads and heavy weapon squads, and don't even bring up penal legions. The elite slot is also really meh aswell. Ratlings, ogryens, storm troopers and the psykers? They're all usable, don't get me wrong. They perform just fine. But why do you take them when you could use the points for more vets, vendettas, and manticores?

Fast attack, everything is overshadowed by the godly vendetta. Hellhounds are fine, but their variants leave a lot to be desired. Bane wolfs are.. ok i guess, but devil dogs? This is a trend with the variants of units. Most of the time, everyone uses the default and one other choice. Then, there's anouther that is also sometimes used but is sort of expensive. The rest is ignored. Sentinals are fun and gimmicky, and valks are good, but next to the vendetta... they just feel underwhelming.

The heavy support by far does the best here, but the feeling is still found, mainly in the LR variants. No one uses anything but the vanilla, the demo, and sometimes the executioner if you can afford one. Bassies and the variants are good too, but it's mostly then basic and the medusa. Griffins and colossusses are fine, but not often used in comparison to other options. And everything pales in comparison to the almighty manticore. It just screams "Take me! I'm the best!" Hydras are fine, especially against fliers and scimmers, but you have to take a trio of them to have reliable firepower, and now you've lost space for the real heavy support option. Deathstrike? What the hell is that?

I'm not saying that any of the other options are bad. They're all fine, for the most part. But when you have a golden unit in every slot, it just detracts from variaty. If someone with a good grasp of 40k tactics opened the gaurd codex with the intent of building a competitive, effective list, taking what looked like the bet options, and had no pre-knowledge of any of the units, each of the top units might as well be highlighted, because he's going to notice them right away.

While this is true, there is always the metagaming level players that can figure out how to take advantage of "lead disatvantage" effect the "golden units" create, and by that tailer their own lists to be especially efficient against thoes golden units, while not surely effective agaisnt the runner-ups.

Its some sort of sticky balance in imbalance, sometimes taking the second or third best is better, as it is less likely to get countered.

The real thing you have to worry about is when Cruddace gets to do a book he doesn't want to do. He wanted to do Guard, and it shows. While there's some shoddy internal balance, there's so much stuff that it's hard to not have a choice. He really wanted to get his teeth into Guard and expand them. A lot of misses, sure, but with the amount of options he just threw in there, there was bound to be a lot of hits as well.

Then with Tyranids, it's very obvious he didn't want to do them. Half assed rules, very little expansion to existing units, dropping lots of older options (and even making some option combinations outright illegal), units and wonky pricing across th whole book showing very little playtesting.

Hell, he didn't even find it important, as the author of the book, to talk about the only huge release they've gotten, the Tervigon wave. He palmed it off to other studio members.

So Tau players, hope that he has a bit of passion for the army. If he does, you might be lucky enough to get a Taurial Guard codex. Otherwise, you'll end up with a Tauranid codex.

The real thing you have to worry about is when Cruddace gets to do a book he doesn't want to do. He wanted to do Guard, and it shows. While there's some shoddy internal balance, there's so much stuff that it's hard to not have a choice. He really wanted to get his teeth into Guard and expand them. A lot of misses, sure, but with the amount of options he just threw in there, there was bound to be a lot of hits as well.

The problem is most of the stuff he added in was forgeworld stuff at the time.

The variants to the LR came from FW (Cept Demolisher)

The variants to artillery came from FW (Originally just the basilisk)

Along with the Hellhound variants.

It's like he mostly just pulled out what he thought was cool from FW.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The real thing you have to worry about is when Cruddace gets to do a book he doesn't want to do. He wanted to do Guard, and it shows. While there's some shoddy internal balance, there's so much stuff that it's hard to not have a choice. He really wanted to get his teeth into Guard and expand them. A lot of misses, sure, but with the amount of options he just threw in there, there was bound to be a lot of hits as well.

The problem is most of the stuff he added in was forgeworld stuff at the time. It's like he mostly just pulled out what he thought was cool from FW.

If he starts with that, I'd be incredibly happy as a Tau player.

Tetras, XV-8 variants, XV-9s, new Hammerhead turrets, flyers, drone turrets... I'd have a flipping field day.

Granted, I think there's several of those that are far too expensive for what they bring to the table, but with an appropriate adjustment they'd flesh out the existing codex quite nicely. If the rumors of Crisis Suits being scoring units as an option, I'd be unbelievably pleased.

Yeah, the FA slot in the guard codex is terribly balanced, but that really can't be said about the rest of the codex. I see people taking lord commissars and psykers all the time, and infantry platoons are PLENTY viable. If you've never seen any fielded, it's because of the players you're facing, not the codex.

And that's really the problem. Just because you have a few uncreative players who can't figure out how to do anything but copy netlists does not mean that there is A ONE guard list and that the rest is junk. It just means that power gamers are uncreative, not that there's a problem with the codex.

I mean, we see the same silliness with grey knights. GK has lots of great options, but that doesn't stop people from saying that if an option isn't THE option, it's therefore a BAD option. Worse is not the same as bad, people.

Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

The problem is they were alright at the time of their creation, what with fish of fury for extra defense.

They cannot be to low however, they still have a decent save, as well as a good weapon (Now that rapid fire is back to half range again)

But the current cost is to much, especially the cost for a team leader in most cases.

When was rapid fire half range? In 3rd - 5th it was 12"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced. Don't even get me into the basic Crisis suit costing 25pts a model, just about twice the cost of a space marine, for not even having close to the same stat line with 2 wounds. I can handle the low int, and even the a WS3 I would understand, but WS2? BS3? LD8? We pay too much for the base cost of a crisis suit too, imo. Especially since we HAVE to add 3 hard point options. BS4 should be standard at the cost Tau currently pay, but I could handle a BS3 army if our unit cost came down appropriately.

Coyote81 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced.

10pts for a Guardsmen with a 4+ armour save, a 6" range boost, +2 strength and +2AP? Seems pretty damn reasonable to me. A veteran Guardsman with BS4 and a 4+ save is 10pts and they're still firing lasguns. Of all the things to criticise in the Tau codex, Fire Warriors should be the least of it. Not to mention that you could ally in some of those cheap Guard squads and it would still be fluffy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Except that every other shhoty army can take many more units that shoot with.

The problem with the Tau being 'Shooty' comes from the supposed value that is placed on Markerlights, but they are extremely points ineffective, and hard to use (as they are Heavy weapons on non-Rentless/SNP units).

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced.

10pts for a Guardsmen with a 4+ armour save, a 6" range boost, +2 strength and +2AP? Seems pretty damn reasonable to me. A veteran Guardsman with BS4 and a 4+ save is 10pts and they're still firing lasguns. Of all the things to criticise in the Tau codex, Fire Warriors should be the least of it. Not to mention that you could ally in some of those cheap Guard squads and it would still be fluffy.

You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

WS3 saving a load of wounds in combat - not in my experience! Sure, power blobs had their day, but 6th all but killed them. Guard squads will still crumble under a dedicated assault unit, higher I and WS notwithstanding. Tau are a shooting army, just like Guard. They're gonna get rolled if you're hoping to win in CC. New RF rules help with this, as you're much more mobile with your core troops.

We're talking core troops here. As it stands, for core troops, Fire Warriors are bloody good. And if you want to get some Guard horde in your army, allies allows this, and as I said before, it's fluffy and cool. But as it stands, 10pts is good value for what you get. Yes, you have to work with them in synergy with the rest of your army, but if everything in the Tau army could kill everything then it'd be bloody boring to play.

I wonder if the authors, Kelly/Ward/Cruddace all read these comments and then come in and say "YEH" I beat you in the polls again.... in the office banter.

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

The difference is that you don't have to pay extra for Orders, that is something that, I think, is built into units that you have to/want to take. Markerlights on the other hand, aren't guaranteed to work (LD test vs BS) and (most importantly) cost ~30 points per Markerlight.

Also, some of the better HQs can give multiple orders while all Markerlights are one for one.

This is the reason that the FW Tetra is the goto Markerlight platform, its way cheaper (collectively) then everything in the codex, and it has a higher chance of hitting, due to BS 4.

Tau is a 'Shooty' army in the sense that they are supposed to be the most accurate of all of the armies, based on the intent behind the Marketlight concept. However, in practice this isn't that effective, because Tau lack the number of shots or the accuracy needed to do so without expending lots of points on purely support units, Marker Drone and Pathfinders.

If you want to compare costs of Ig to Tau, it's going to cost about 140 for 11 Firewarriors, 1 sergeant, and defensive grenades. Add in the cost of a bare transport with crap weapons and no fire points for a total of 220. Would an IG player honestly pick that unit, still at BS3 with no weapon options, over any troop option other than Penal legion?

Should have worded it differently, as it seems many misunderstood me. I meant "standard" rather then "basic"

Besides, it seems many missed the point that I am talking about not only imbalance, but fluff fails too.

I really would not have minded BS3 for the most basic fire warriors (altough BS4 at a slightly higher cost would have been more rational, these guys are EXPERT shooters, its all they DO.), but Tau have BS3 to thier ELITES,.

They even have BS3 for freaking crisis suit BODYGUARDS!

The only infantry models with higher then BS3 base in the entire codex are Shas'o/el and the ethreal's bodyguards. one is the godamn HQ, the other is the bodyguards of the secondary HQ.
(and the sniper spooter, but he is a markerlighter so it hardly counts.)

So at they very BEST, a Tau codex can field a single squad of units with BS4, plus a single HQ with BS4 or 5.
Sure you got the targeting array, but thats another 10 points on top of an already expensive battlesuit/stealthsuit.
And lets not forget that even a weak battlesuit varient such as the deathrain out-costs a terminator, so you really dont got the points to spare for that targeting array across the board, and usually you wont have the upgrade slots too.

And to make it worse you also have no specail or heavy guns in troops excpet the horrid krootox, but thats not the issue at hand.

Show me another shooty army that has no easy acess to either high BS or massed guns, because there isn't.
Even most "balanced" armys (on the shooty-melee scale) have an easier time fielding these.

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

WS3 saving a load of wounds in combat - not in my experience! Sure, power blobs had their day, but 6th all but killed them. Guard squads will still crumble under a dedicated assault unit, higher I and WS notwithstanding. Tau are a shooting army, just like Guard. They're gonna get rolled if you're hoping to win in CC. New RF rules help with this, as you're much more mobile with your core troops.

We're talking core troops here. As it stands, for core troops, Fire Warriors are bloody good. And if you want to get some Guard horde in your army, allies allows this, and as I said before, it's fluffy and cool. But as it stands, 10pts is good value for what you get. Yes, you have to work with them in synergy with the rest of your army, but if everything in the Tau army could kill everything then it'd be bloody boring to play.

There is a lot of special rules, and options that make them far superior to firearriors. Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units. I still don't see how 10pts is a good value, when guard get BS4 vets with 4+ saves for 9pts a piece, can take 3 special weapons and one heavy weapon. And have a slew of other options. Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

Coyote81 wrote:Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units.

Firstly, you do have to pay for orders. It's called a CCS and at the absolute cheapest, it's costing you 50 points apiece.

Secondly, exactly one unit can give out more than one order per turn, with the exception of a couple of special characters that are very expensive, and really uncommon.

Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

Fourthly, most guard orders aren't that great. Yeah, there's the twin-linking against vehicles one, but there's also the run faster one and the shine flashlights faster one and the go to grounder one, none of which are all that great. Plus, it's not like markerlights can reduce cover saves or increase BS, or something that's really useful...

Coyote81 wrote:Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

And I'd gladly upgrade my veterans to not have to hug cover so badly, and get an armor save against bolters. You can, actually, but it makes them nearly as expensive as firewarriors.

I'd also gladly trade in a couple of plasma guns for a small arm that can ruin the other side of the board from its deployment zone, and that can pick fliers out of the sky with ease and that can blow up razorbacks and take down monstrous creatures.

If you think that the only value to a unit is its upgrades, then yeah, stop playing tau right now. If you're able to look at things holistically, though, you'd see just how much firewarriors have going for them.

Pick out with ease might be a little strong. Perhaps if people took them en masse, but that just isn't the case.

Marker lights only work automatically when you pay an absurd amount of points, are terrible are sharing with other units unless your entire army happens to be focusing on one thing, and only after you pass a BS3 test!

They only increase BS to what it should be for the army, and removing cover saves just makes the insane amount of points we spend on the few low AP weapons actually count a little bit.

But I'm sure FW are great, seeing as how they've been dominating the table top since 6th came out. Wait. What's that? They still suck?! How can that be?!

At least they aren't handling as bad as IG veterans.... Wait... What?! You're joking! Well that shut me up,

But go ahead and try playing IG at 120 for a 12 man squad at BS3 with a 4+ and LD7. Also try taking a large transport, with no fire points, and no notable weapons on it to bring the squad up to 200 points. Try running that. Tell us how well it works.

Ah to be IG and be able to take 9 lascannons for 315pts in heavy weapons squads....as core. And have some guy nearby yelling "Take it down!" so you're measly BS3 is TLd now.

Yeah pulse rifles are good at killing orcs and tyranids can actually take out light vehicles but are manned by the weakest unit in the game that has zero options for anything with a lower AP than enough to kill flak armor. Not to mention one item in the GK codex ensures that nearly your entire army is shooting at BS1 because pulse weapons=plasma.

30" range is awesome with your 12 shots with 5 or 6 hitting and 3 or 4 wounding. In a game where your MEQ opponent is in your face on turn 2 and killing your WS2 I2 FWs like they were candy. The option is to leave them in an overcosted transport with no fireports and at that point you might as well not have taken them.

Personally I get more out of a kroot heavy list than a FW list, they have no armor but can actually kill something in CC and have greater weight of fire than a FW squad because they're not capped at 12.

 Ailaros wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units.

Firstly, you do have to pay for orders. It's called a CCS and at the absolute cheapest, it's costing you 50 points apiece.

Secondly, exactly one unit can give out more than one order per turn, with the exception of a couple of special characters that are very expensive, and really uncommon.

Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

Fourthly, most guard orders aren't that great. Yeah, there's the twin-linking against vehicles one, but there's also the run faster one and the shine flashlights faster one and the go to grounder one, none of which are all that great. Plus, it's not like markerlights can reduce cover saves or increase BS, or something that's really useful...

Coyote81 wrote:Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

And I'd gladly upgrade my veterans to not have to hug cover so badly, and get an armor save against bolters. You can, actually, but it makes them nearly as expensive as firewarriors.

I'd also gladly trade in a couple of plasma guns for a small arm that can ruin the other side of the board from its deployment zone, and that can pick fliers out of the sky with ease and that can blow up razorbacks and take down monstrous creatures.

If you think that the only value to a unit is its upgrades, then yeah, stop playing tau right now. If you're able to look at things holistically, though, you'd see just how much firewarriors have going for them. Twin linking against flyers is amazing, making opponents reroll cover saves, again awesome. going to ground for extra coversaves, awesome, and lastly, my favorite. having a unit that went to ground last turn, get up in the shooting phase and shoot without penalty....just wow! I have used this myself, time and time again.

Have you done the math on pulserifles killing those targets? The plasmaguns are going to be more consistant.

Lastly, getting your 4+ saves against bolters might be awesome if you have a large amount of bodies or decent LD so when you do lose those 3 guys after the marines put like 8 wounds on you, you don't run away. But honestly, why do you need 4+ armor saves, when you can easily get 4+ cover saves most of the time anyways. And if really needed just go to ground in area terrain (I think thats 3+ cover saves, 5+ from the terrain and 2+ for going to ground) and then just order you unit back up next turn. 4+ saves are really not needed, I'd take the point reduction for having 5+ saves.

Orders are actually free, seeing as the units that get them, can use orders and fight/shoot in addition to that ability making them very useful, where as marker lights (pathfinders and tetras) don't do anything else, they are a huge point sink ( one tetra costs the same a CCS, but isn't nearly as good for buffing, pathfinders are something like 3 tiems as much as a CCS)

If my units could shoot marker lights and BS4 special weapons, I'd be excited. They can't and I hate paying 20pts for a unit that doesn't actually kill anything. it might enable other to kil better, but it is a waste of points compared to a CCS.

 BoomWolf wrote:


FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

I dont think the idea in game design is to keep things balanced. it strikes me, that they design goal of the teams has been, and currently is to create a very fluid, dynamic and changing game. For several months, GK were top tier. Necrons are currently the scariest around (With that one list).

Chaos can be pretty terrifying in that they can bring vastly different lists in huge quantities. If I'm going to have a game against orks, I can tool nearly every one of my armies to demolish face.... There's almost no way to anticipate what a Chaos SM list will be built out of; and even if you can reasonably predict, some things are just scary all the time (helldrake).

I'm more or less with Ailaros. I'm starting a small band of Tau allies which I have played in conjunction with my guardand I gotta say, that Str 5 gun is very, very, nice.

I basically treat my eight to ten man Fire Warrior squad as a veteran squad when I use 'em. I honestly see little to no difference in the play styles of each, abeit the Firewarriors have a longer range, and I kinda think the whole debate over which one is better is narcissism.

As far as model-by-model, point-for-point, I think firewarriors win it. An equal number of firewarriors will wreck an equal number of veterans any day of the week.

However, veterans start to more weight against specific targets with doctrines and flexible special weapon choices. Plus, the lack of synergy in the Tau codex really hurts these guys the most.

Both are great to have as troops, in my opinion.

I was rereading some Tau stuff and I glanced across my ethereal again. Did you know that in a box as old as Tau, they actually assume upgrading FW to BS4 is worth 2pts a model. 12pt FWS?!? There are some serious problems with 4th codexs in todays enviroment.

 kestril wrote:
I'm more or less with Ailaros. I'm starting a small band of Tau allies which I have played in conjunction with my guardand I gotta say, that Str 5 gun is very, very, nice.

I basically treat my eight to ten man Fire Warrior squad as a veteran squad when I use 'em. I honestly see little to no difference in the play styles of each, abeit the Firewarriors have a longer range, and I kinda think the whole debate over which one is better is narcissism.

As far as model-by-model, point-for-point, I think firewarriors win it. An equal number of firewarriors will wreck an equal number of veterans any day of the week.

However, veterans start to more weight against specific targets with doctrines and flexible special weapon choices. Plus, the lack of synergy in the Tau codex really hurts these guys the most.

Both are great to have as troops, in my opinion.

You can't really compare FW directly to vets in a 1v1 fight, but I'm glad you took into account the variety of targets they may face and how vets clearly come out on top in a take on any army setup. And it's really the syngery that makes all the difference. Ig are nothing but good synergy between their various infantry units, and even between their infantry and mech units. Where as Tau have no synergy. They're suppose to be a mobile shooting army, with infantry that are slow, transports with no firepoints, and almost none of the units were designed with any synergy with the exception marklights in general. I hope Tau become as synergistic as IG. *prays to Cruddace for mercy*

Veskrashen wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The real thing you have to worry about is when Cruddace gets to do a book he doesn't want to do. He wanted to do Guard, and it shows. While there's some shoddy internal balance, there's so much stuff that it's hard to not have a choice. He really wanted to get his teeth into Guard and expand them. A lot of misses, sure, but with the amount of options he just threw in there, there was bound to be a lot of hits as well.

The problem is most of the stuff he added in was forgeworld stuff at the time. It's like he mostly just pulled out what he thought was cool from FW.

If he starts with that, I'd be incredibly happy as a Tau player.

Tetras, XV-8 variants, XV-9s, new Hammerhead turrets, flyers, drone turrets... I'd have a flipping field day.

Granted, I think there's several of those that are far too expensive for what they bring to the table, but with an appropriate adjustment they'd flesh out the existing codex quite nicely. If the rumors of Crisis Suits being scoring units as an option, I'd be unbelievably pleased.

This, this this this!

Please GW, add the fw models to the dex.

Support those people who have supported you.

Oh, and from some of the other comments; sounds like they need to hire new codex writers....

 BoomWolf wrote:

FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

A few oddlot combinations that turn out more powerful then intended I would have understood, but have more things that are out of balance, either strong or weak, then tings that are in balance is plain odd, is someone even TESTING these stuff in a serious matter? or reading it even?

Just take Tau for an example, it was written by some andy guy, but it sends the message of "is anyone looking into it" across, a quick list of things that make no sense:
1-An army who is shooy-centric (make that "shooty-only"), BS3 standard.
2-Gun drones cheaper as wargear then as a unit.
3-Phirana depends on distance to survive, yet needs to get VERY close to attack. (counter-productive much?)
4-Pathfinders? a static fast attack unit. brillent. (and requires to take a transport to boot, except using it renders them useless for the turn they disembark...)
5-The seeker missile, equal to the SM krak upgrade in power and cost require a markerlight to fire.
6-Broadside plasma "upgrade" actually reduces kill rate on almost everything. (only if the enemy is like a Sv2+ with no invul and within 12'' it pays off.)
7-Vespid, an assualt unit with guardsmen worth of WS and S. (good I5 and HoW dont help if you cant kill anything.)
8-Etheral, carries a risk of sending your own unit running away. (I get it that the tau are shocked, but isn't running away a bit overkill? you brought the guy to a warzone!)
9-the massive hammerhead railgun is less potent the tiny broadside ones at solid shots. (give it melta or something x_x)
10-Sniper drones, got a SFG but can't infiltrate, or scout move, or SOMETHING? the thing is far harder to see then scouts!

1. BS3 makes sense considering everything. Orks are largely shooty army with BS2.
4. Well, Pathfinders obviously aren't troops, and putting them to Elite or Heavy Support slot would make them useless.
7. Where do you get that Vespid's are assault unit?
9. It has Large blast.

Really, lots of people don't seem to understand Tau at all. Their problem as a codex is NOT that they are not BS4 base (a totally silly proposition), or that they don't have Assault Fire Warriors with Power weapons and Rail Pistols. The problem is that for supposedly "flexible" army, their FOC is extremely rigid and nearly all units are very much single use. And of course there's lots of 4th edition era pricing but that's not such a big deal.

Yeah and the minimum requirements they're forced to take likely do not help the situation, though they're probably things you'd take anyway. For me, making drones troops would make me start the army instantly; I wouldn't mind if they were unable to capture objectives either. They just sort of don't feel right in the FA slot. The fact that they're not so great as a sacrificial unit, which seemed to be one of their main selling points at a time, sort of puts them off a little more as well.

 Ailaros wrote:
Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

This is just plain wrong and you know it. You can't expect to be taken seriously.

I also strongly disagree that orders cost 50 points. A unit that can take numerous BS4 special weapons, advisors, chimera, fills a mandatory HQ slot is 50 points. It also has orders.
3 markerlights in an already overpriced unit with expensive mandatory transport is 30 points.

I'd just like to put in my 2 cents that guard blobs of platoons is quite strong now in 6th as many people are using it now as the better counter-flier option by having things that are just too many bodies for them to take down. Lord commisars are making their way into many allies builds. It's definately part of the swap in metas.

Also, having a building as a troop choice given the updates is just funny as all get out. (Remote Sensor Tower). (ya I know it's a vehicle but it looks like and as far as everyone near me feels like it's a building)

Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

 htj wrote:
Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

Except that FW are not "rock solid" as their performance on the table top clearly shows. I have no idea how people have such a high opinion of them, when all experience shows otherwise. To put it in perspective, IG veterans were broken with how good they were and FW are pretty much a joke. How people can say that they are as good as veterans is actually kinda disturbing.

And you can't say that BS3 on FW makes sense or seems fair. Orks have numbers to compensate for their low BS. Tau FW only have a max of 12 expensive FW per troop, no good transport, and a weapon that's +1S and 6" range bolter. The unit is far from a decent option. But if people are so willing to defend it, I suggest you try using Tau instead of telling me to DROP THE ARMY I LIKE.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 htj wrote:
Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

Except that FW are not "rock solid" as their performance on the table top clearly shows. I have no idea how people have such a high opinion of them, when all experience shows otherwise. To put it in perspective, IG veterans were broken with how good they were and FW are pretty much a joke. How people can say that they are as good as veterans is actually kinda disturbing.

And you can't say that BS3 on FW makes sense or seems fair. Orks have numbers to compensate for their low BS. Tau FW only have a max of 12 expensive FW per troop, no good transport, and a weapon that's +1S and 6" range bolter. The unit is far from a decent option. But if people are so willing to defend it, I suggest you try using Tau instead of telling me to DROP THE ARMY I LIKE.

So. What have we got here. Claims that FW sucks based on your own personal experience, fine, OK. Assertion that Vets are 'broken' based on, I can only assume the 'everybody knows it!' school of fact checking. Alright then. Claim that BS3 on Tau is unfair as to it not matching up with the fluff hyperbole - I can get behind that. Description of FW as overpriced, well, it's clear we disagree on that. Telling me go play Tau to prove they're fine - I would gladly field a Tau army against any Guard army you chose to bring against me, should the situation occur.

Saying that I told you to [RAEG]DROP THE ARMY I LIKE[/RAEG]? No. I did not say that. I said, and it's handily quoted above: "If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard."

You see what I'm saying there? They are not going to play like Guard unless you use the Guard codex, because they are not Guard. They are going to play differently, and they need to be played for what they are. And there are plenty of things wrong with the Tau codex but, I'm sorry, Fire Warriors just isn't one of them.

I hope you see what I'm actually saying this time, but I doubt it. Your mind is so closed to the idea that a unit which is fundamentally good that you refuse to allow any leeway.

I'm done. Have fun being full of anger when the new codex doesn't turn FW's into Guard Vets.

great...I am talking about how much the crunch does not fit the fluff, and people take it towards a power level argument.

FW are an ok unit, not amazing but not useless, S5 basic rifles stands for alot when it comes to gunning down transports and monstrus creatures, and at 10 points a piece they do a good job for their stats (as my experience shows me). they are a bit weak, but just a bit.
But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy. Even the guys with the massive battlesuits, with automated balancing and counter-recoil systems are a BS3 unless they clear room for sociopathinc targeting systems, and then they are just a BS4.

I dont know about you, but a targeting array on a recoil-less platform that is the battlesuit (and piloted by the best soldiers in the Tau empire) should, by fluff, pretty much ensure you hit pretty much every single bullet, not that you are as good as a human packing a random gun that has a tiny bit of field experiance. that thing should be at least a BS4 to begin with, not AFTER the targeting array. (and the arry is supposed to be far better then "+1 to BS, to a max of 5". that thing shows you exacly where to aim your gun so wind, fire arcs and the target's movement will be nullified. even a conscript will have a hard time missing with that.)

How can it be that an army who is turned to do one thing, and one thing only, and his entire technological advancement is toward making that thing the best possible, cant do that one thing any better then anyone else who are not even focusing on it?
Heck, they don't even do AS GOOD as most of them.
An entire army based on the concept of shooting things dead before they get too close, and you don't know to aim? seriously?

In short-drop the numbers, up the power. Tau fluff makes them fight as small commando teams of two or three dozens of gunners lead by a handful all-mighty battlesuits, not masses of guardsmen-quality led by a few "decent" battlesuits. (and not what the balance leads you to having 18-24 FW's around with 9-12 suits as the bulk of the army, and I've seen lists who had as many suits as firewarriors, thats just wrong.)

 BoomWolf wrote:

But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy.

I don't think that BS3 is so bad from a super-trained soldier who has the eyesight of a mole. A BS4 non-suit infantry model with I2 would be quite odd...

And on topic, I'm quite glad that the Tau will have a Cruddex. Because it means that we will get a good Forgeworld stuff, and its "different" version for sure (Valkyre/Vendetta, Trygon/Mawloc). And I would be happy with anything from FW to find its way into the official codex.

 htj wrote:

So. What have we got here. Claims that FW sucks based on your own personal experience, fine, OK. Assertion that Vets are 'broken' based on, I can only assume the 'everybody knows it!' school of fact checking. Alright then. Claim that BS3 on Tau is unfair as to it not matching up with the fluff hyperbole - I can get behind that. Description of FW as overpriced, well, it's clear we disagree on that. Telling me go play Tau to prove they're fine - I would gladly field a Tau army against any Guard army you chose to bring against me, should the situation occur.

Saying that I told you to [RAEG]DROP THE ARMY I LIKE[/RAEG]? No. I did not say that. I said, and it's handily quoted above: "If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard."

You see what I'm saying there? They are not going to play like Guard unless you use the Guard codex, because they are not Guard. They are going to play differently, and they need to be played for what they are. And there are plenty of things wrong with the Tau codex but, I'm sorry, Fire Warriors just isn't one of them.

I hope you see what I'm actually saying this time, but I doubt it. Your mind is so closed to the idea that a unit which is fundamentally good that you refuse to allow any leeway.

I'm done. Have fun being full of anger when the new codex doesn't turn FW's into Guard Vets.

I'm not the only claiming that FW suck. Veteran squads with their awesome transports have been doing fairly well. I don't even need to google it to find the results of that. You can argue that the price is just fine when EVERY TAU PLAYER EVER EVER is saying otherwise. The key thing is that FW serve no useful purpose without relying heavily on markerlights. And nobody is asking for a Tau copy of the IG dex. What we were claiming is that we want a codex with synergy and with plenty of options as the IG. To understand that better we have 2 troops. One with two weapons with similar stats, the other with one weapon. One troop can take grenades. And that's it. That is our options for troops. Kroot can take a "heavy weapon" that removes one of their only useful abilities.

And to point out that a Crisis suit is overpriced, I'd like to point out that we stil pay the points for acute senses, on a suit that can't outflank, and the ability to move and fire rapid fire weapons, now that even Guardsman Jimmy can do the same.

But get on your high horse and ride off into the sunset, pretending you're the only one who truly understands how great FW are when the whole world is blind to your insight.

Back on topic, I agree that it is insane that only the standard HQ, which costs double points for a suit with +1W and +1BS. Most Tau players I've discussed this with would even prefer just to take two additional elite slots rather than the HQ with their overpriced bodyguards.

And I seriously hope that we don't just get everything from FW. The Tetra and the barracuda are the only things I like. The Remora just seems silly for a flying burst cannon. The Drone turrets might be good, if not for the fact that it's a non-scoring troop. The piranha upgrades, drone turrets, and hammerhead turrets are just LAZY development. "Lets put suit weapons on other stuff and sell it as something new!" The XV-9s can be cool, but I think they need to be reworked a bit.

I'm still on the fence with Forgeworld in general since the XV-9 was made because someone said "Hey, gattling guns are cool. I wanna put one on cool robot. Scratch that. Four! Four on one robot" I don't have a problem that the guy didn't know anything about Tau, but FW went ahead and said "Yeah! Two twinlinked burst cannons. That's what Tau need!" Units like the Remora and Orca really make me wonder though. Even the Kroot got a bunch of dinosaurs that are LAME BEYONE REASON! Seriously. Try running a goaded Gnarloc. It's a joke.

 BoomWolf wrote:
great...I am talking about how much the crunch does not fit the fluff, and people take it towards a power level argument.

FW are an ok unit, not amazing but not useless, S5 basic rifles stands for alot when it comes to gunning down transports and monstrus creatures, and at 10 points a piece they do a good job for their stats (as my experience shows me). they are a bit weak, but just a bit.
But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy. Even the guys with the massive battlesuits, with automated balancing and counter-recoil systems are a BS3 unless they clear room for sociopathinc targeting systems, and then they are just a BS4.

I dont know about you, but a targeting array on a recoil-less platform that is the battlesuit (and piloted by the best soldiers in the Tau empire) should, by fluff, pretty much ensure you hit pretty much every single bullet, not that you are as good as a human packing a random gun that has a tiny bit of field experiance. that thing should be at least a BS4 to begin with, not AFTER the targeting array. (and the arry is supposed to be far better then "+1 to BS, to a max of 5". that thing shows you exacly where to aim your gun so wind, fire arcs and the target's movement will be nullified. even a conscript will have a hard time missing with that.)

How can it be that an army who is turned to do one thing, and one thing only, and his entire technological advancement is toward making that thing the best possible, cant do that one thing any better then anyone else who are not even focusing on it?
Heck, they don't even do AS GOOD as most of them.
An entire army based on the concept of shooting things dead before they get too close, and you don't know to aim? seriously?

In short-drop the numbers, up the power. Tau fluff makes them fight as small commando teams of two or three dozens of gunners lead by a handful all-mighty battlesuits, not masses of guardsmen-quality led by a few "decent" battlesuits. (and not what the balance leads you to having 18-24 FW's around with 9-12 suits as the bulk of the army, and I've seen lists who had as many suits as firewarriors, thats just wrong.)

I agree that FW are OK with BS3, but suits really should be BS4.

Also, Tau have to pay for squad leaders, its a 5 to 10 pts 'upgrade' for +1 LD and the ability to take a Marketlight, and take wargear.

If Tau squads came with leaders normally, and FW came with both gernades (EMP and Photon) I would feel that they would be OK, if a little UP, at 10pts a piece.

Yes, free leader and greandaes would have been nice,

FenixZero wrote:
If Tau squads came with leaders normally, and FW came with both gernades (EMP and Photon) I would feel that they would be OK, if a little UP, at 10pts a piece.

Of course, that isn't going to happen. Xenos must pay the usual tax for fielding units.

The other thing about the leader is the markerlight he gets isn't networked. It points out how the codex doesn't have much synergy. I don't understand why the Team leader can't buff his own unit, and really doubt that I'd fire a suit and FW squad at the same target enough to make it worth it.

I still think BS3 for the base unit with no option to upgrade it, i.e. veteran troops, is completely crap. Markerlights are too costly and limited to justify such a shooty army having a low base BS. Infact, I don't even think Markerlights should increase BS. They should provide shooting buffs, like re-rolling 1's and removing cover saves or something. But why is Tau limited to this?

Here's an example. SW are now WS2 and S2. They are a CC heavy army. Don't worry though. If another SW squad from 1 FOC slot (at a boosted price) is in combat they can up the S and WS of the other squad to a max of 5 for every successful wound they caused. WS5 and S5 SW?! Sign me up on that! Sure the example is quite a bit off, but it's still bull to be forced to rely on an entire FOC just to make a shooty army be able to hit their targets. And don't include the FW tetra when looking at markerlights.

I'd pay the same points for a heavy weapon, that only buffs another unit firing at the same target, that other units would pay for a meltagun. And unless I want to spend more points for the model to fire it's other weapon as well, then it's an entire model wasted to only making another model get a buff.

Look at the stealth marker team (Horrible idea, nobody ever try it ever ever) that some people are running (Don't listen to them, bad idea. Terrible unit)
90 points for the team alone, with 1 markerlight and 2 markerdrones making it cost 135 total for 3 BS3 markerlights. I'm paying extra points for the team leader to not fire his main weapon just to give a 50/50 chance to boost another unit's BS. Pants on head slowed.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Look at the stealth marker team (Horrible idea, nobody ever try it ever ever) that some people are running (Don't listen to them, bad idea. Terrible unit) 90 points for the team alone, with 1 markerlight and 2 markerdrones making it cost 135 total for 3 BS3 markerlights. I'm paying extra points for the team leader to not fire his main weapon just to give a 50/50 chance to boost another unit's BS. Pants on head slowed.

I have actually used this, but once my enemies close in I fold, because either they kill the SMT or kill my shooting units. Reducing the effectiveness of the whole set up.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy.

I don't think that BS3 is so bad from a super-trained soldier who has the eyesight of a mole. A BS4 non-suit infantry model with I2 would be quite odd...

And on topic, I'm quite glad that the Tau will have a Cruddex. Because it means that we will get a good Forgeworld stuff, and its "different" version for sure (Valkyre/Vendetta, Trygon/Mawloc). And I would be happy with anything from FW to find its way into the official codex.

Actually the "Bad Sight" is only for gauging things either.

A: Up close (Which is why they have horrible WS)

B: Depth issues (Which isn't an issue, due to pulse weapons not falling out like normal bullets)

The first is easily shown (WS2) second is not.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Actually the "Bad Sight" is only for gauging things either.

Oh, I meant the bad sight by their more detailed description: the FFG RPG rules. There, the average Tau Fire Warrior have an Agility of 25 and a Perception of 20 while having a Ballistic Skill of 35 (Guardsman's stats are Agility 30-35, Perception 30-35 and BS 35). The two "bad stats" actually decrease their ranged fighting capacity tremendously (they are barely better than a Conscript, and only reach Guardsman level because of their equipment), and I kinda refered to this situation. On the tabletop, you can say that FWs have BS3 because they have I2.

Interesting point. I was actually using a Kroot with the pulse rifle in the game and thought it was kinda broken. Now that I understand how the bad stats reduce it's effectiveness.

FWs just need to be cheaper. And Suits should get a BS increase to 4 because the systems in the suit compensate for their poor depth perception and slow reaction time.

I like Mr Cruddace Nids so wouldn't have a problem with him writing the codex. Where I see a problem is Tau models not only having none of the grimdark but some also looking like cheap toys (XV8). If the new codex deals with that, that will be something.

And don't even get me started on Kroot, they're worse thing that happened to 40k model/ visual design wise with Newcrons as a strong second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
People want ward because they know it'll at least be middle tier and the rest wants that sweet OP spot

No, no, please no, never. I prefer 6 years of uphill battle and 300 points for basic Trygon over this man touching any of Tyranid fluff or models.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The other thing about the leader is the markerlight he gets isn't networked. It points out how the codex doesn't have much synergy. I don't understand why the Team leader can't buff his own unit, and really doubt that I'd fire a suit and FW squad at the same target enough to make it worth it.

I'm starting to suspect a bit of a switcharoud... where a Markerlight (not networked) will work on the model's own squad, and a Networked Markerlight will work for any unit.
Also wondering if it will be simplified a bit... working more like a space marine sergeant with a Signum, except maybe working for the whole squad?

That switch makes sense for the terminology in place.

Personally I think they should all work for all units. Resolve the markerlight effect before the unit shoots.

Also once the markerlight is there, the Seeker should be an automatic hit instead of a BS 5.

Is he like Matt Ward or sth?

So does this mean that there's plans for a Tau codex?

If the Tau codex ends up terrible, it's one of the ones that the Mechanicum codex project writers are working on, so it will at least have an unofficial backup.

Rumor is that Tau have been getting worked on for about two years now, but nobody wants to take charge of writing the dex.

I say give the codex to the writers from FW, they have made almost a codex worth of new units for Tau already, and most of those are actually fair to good units by themselves.

It would make my day for sure.

Coyote81 wrote:
I say give the codex to the writers from FW, they have made almost a codex worth of new units for Tau already, and most of those are actually fair to good units by themselves.

It would make my day for sure.

Stop saying things that I agree with!

Here's what I've learned from some playing experience against both tau and IG with my orks.

both armies utilized a psyker with prescience:

The tau army can shoot once at 30" and with the psyker reroll to hit.

The IG can shoot TWICE (thanks to FRF) and reroll to hit.

now both outrange my shootas, while one wounds most of the time, it comes down to 6 losses.

now the IG, he takes a 20 man blob squad so 40 shots tl'd, and while hitting on 5's and 6's, deals 10 wounds. thats more wounds output for the same cost. (130 for pcs and 2 10 squads) sure i may make a save, (6+) but in my experience its 1 out of 10, strict math hammer says ill save 2 at best.

while not much of a difference, If I save none, the IG player actually forced a save against my 160pt 20 man boyz sqd. The other is getting a face full of ork fist in the next turn or so.

while pulse rifles deal wounds easier, the Tau crappy BS fails to deliver the hits needed to deal the wounds. IG can actually cause more hits and wounds for the price.

against meq its a little more even, the 3+ save changes the score to Tau 2, IG 3.

against each other, its tau 8, IG 8 (7.5 after saves made by tau 4+)

tau are sort of balanced, for the points they dish out around the same kills, unfortunately they are short about 13 bodies to make this at least decent. I say this because in reality, the IG just won the fight in forcing a LD test on the 4 remaining FWs while the IG have 12 men left to fire in the next round (24 more shots, dealing 4.5 wounds after saves)

I did not include markerlights because unlike the pcs, markerlights are not standard with the point cost of the unit.

Paitryn wrote:
Here's what I've learned from some playing experience against both tau and IG with my orks.

both armies utilized a psyker with prescience:

The tau army can shoot once at 30" and with the psyker reroll to hit.

The IG can shoot TWICE (thanks to FRF) and reroll to hit.

now both outrange my shootas, while one wounds most of the time, it comes down to 6 losses.

now the IG, he takes a 20 man blob squad so 40 shots tl'd, and while hitting on 5's and 6's, deals 10 wounds. thats more wounds output for the same cost. (130 for pcs and 2 10 squads) sure i may make a save, (6+) but in my experience its 1 out of 10, strict math hammer says ill save 2 at best.

while not much of a difference, If I save none, the IG player actually forced a save against my 160pt 20 man boyz sqd. The other is getting a face full of ork fist in the next turn or so.

while pulse rifles deal wounds easier, the Tau crappy BS fails to deliver the hits needed to deal the wounds. IG can actually cause more hits and wounds for the price.

against meq its a little more even, the 3+ save changes the score to Tau 2, IG 3.

against each other, its tau 8, IG 8 (7.5 after saves made by tau 4+)

tau are sort of balanced, for the points they dish out around the same kills, unfortunately they are short about 13 bodies to make this at least decent. I say this because in reality, the IG just won the fight in forcing a LD test on the 4 remaining FWs while the IG have 12 men left to fire in the next round (24 more shots, dealing 4.5 wounds after saves)

I did not include markerlights because unlike the pcs, markerlights are not standard with the point cost of the unit.

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

Backfire wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

There is no arguing that the pulse rifles are the only thing the firewarriors have going in their favor, but that doesn't outweigh the variety of advantages that the guardsmen have over the FWs. the main problem I see if that fireawarriors come with disadvantages to weigh with their advantages, where as guardsmen have only advantages, just attempted balance by point value.

Coyote81 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

This math hammer brother after my own heart has explained the simple truth. While the results maybe end up similiar for points costs, the pure number of wounds in the unit and the options already included make this an easy victory for the IG platton being clearly better the FWs and makes me continue to preach the need for FWs to be improved.

However, Pulse rifles do have some other advantages:

-Pulse rifles have longer maximum range, and in 6th, also longer Rapid fire range.
-Pulse rifles can hurt light vehicles, Lasguns can't.
-same goes for some high-toughness targets like Monstrous creatures. T5 targets like Daemon princes or SM Bikes are hurt 4+ with Pulse rifles, 6+ with Lasguns.

There is no arguing that the pulse rifles are the only thing the firewarriors have going in their favor, but that doesn't outweigh the variety of advantages that the guardsmen have over the FWs. the main problem I see if that fireawarriors come with disadvantages to weigh with their advantages, where as guardsmen have only advantages, just attempted balance by point value.

Maybe instead of factoring the cost with them, maybe make it so that if the Team Leader is alive, he grants a +1BS bonus to the group, justifying why you would want a sarge in the squad. Maybe use the fact he's coordinating fire with an auspex sort of wargear (I cannot remember what the tau's equivalent was called) make them slightly cheaper, but make the team leader worth buying aside from wargear he doesn't really use.

Or have him for free and all that, but you pay for an upgrade for him to pass onto the squad. Probably some different options for the sake of diversity within the codex.

 n0t_u wrote:
Or have him for free and all that, but you pay for an upgrade for him to pass onto the squad. Probably some different options for the sake of diversity within the codex.

Actually that would be pretty neat, upgrades given to the Team Leader that benefit the whole squad akin to wargear for other races which would define protecting the Team Leader over the rest of the squad. Seeing as most of the time if you took a Team leader, it was simply for the Fire Knife, having an actual purpose for him would be useful.

I was hoping that's how the marker light would end up being. You purchase a marker for team leaders
For every team leader with a marker light, roll a BS test at the beginning of the shooting phase.
For each squad a successful test passed gives them different buffs. Crisis suits ignore cover, Firewarriors re-roll to 1's to hit, broadsides re-roll wound/pen, so on and so forth. If a unit is targetted by multiple units then the ability stacks. So if suits and broadside lit up a tank, they get no cover from either unit and reroll pen, if its destroyed before the other units fire the. They don't get their buff when targeting another unit. I know my example is a bit odd, and needs a lot of work, but its what I feel markers should be. Having an entire slot dedicated to making your shooting army shoot better than standard, even for elites, is BS in my book.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

He was probably saying that Tau took an Eldar ally. In any case, Tau have markerlights to get around their low BS, as well as to deprive their target of cover saves. They do not need a secondary army.

 Archonate wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

He was probably saying that Tau took an Eldar ally. In any case, Tau have markerlights to get around their low BS, as well as to deprive their target of cover saves. They do not need a secondary army.

But you would be better off spending the points from Markerlights on Allies.

a minimum squad of BS3 markerlights, including a transport that is for the most part overpriced and useless, you're spending about 130 points. And thats for 4 markers, which on average 2 will hit.

Unless someone has an excessive amount of markerlights, he is going to have more important units to use them on like crisis suits and broadsides. It's still insane to say that markerlights justifies BS3 when they are easy to lose, expensive to field, immobile, and too innaccurrate themselves.

No other army has to dedicate a FOC slot to to making the army suck less. The fact that allies lets us take a psyker who can get such a useful ability shows you how bad this is, since other armies get this as part of their regular army, not having to borrow from other 'dexs and generally have a higher BS anyways.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
including a transport that is for the most part overpriced and useless, .

Actually, the Devilfish is kinda' cool now. 3+ cover save on the move (Jink + Disruption Pod) or a 2+ behind an Aegis makes it nearly as tough as an AV14 vehicle. And with the new Turbo Boost rules, you can do some crazy FoF moves with a DF and 12 FWs.

That's 205 points minimum! Devilfish are tough, but they just don't offer enough for their high price. Especially since the fish doesn't count as scoring anymore.

Their weapons are too limited only having 5 S5 shots at 18" range.

And if you're trying to move your devilfish up at all, then you're risking the loss of shrouding. If you really want to use FW, just stick them in a ADL and enjoy 30" range.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
That's 205 points minimum! Devilfish are tough, but they just don't offer enough for their high price. Especially since the fish doesn't count as scoring anymore.

Their weapons are too limited only having 5 S5 shots at 18" range.

And if you're trying to move your devilfish up at all, then you're risking the loss of shrouding. If you really want to use FW, just stick them in a ADL and enjoy 30" range.

Yeah, but thats 205 points of pure annoyment for your opponent. The DF can soak up lots of damage (7 BS4 LC shots to strip a single HP?), and once the enemy gets close (and he has to, as long-range shots are fairly ineffective) then you can play FoF with the attackers. And it is a very heart-warming sight to see half of the enemy army trying to take out a single DF and 12 FWs while the rest of your army is busy doing whatevery they want.

The inevitable "close combat specialist" Tau will make a sad panda for fluff reasons, as Tau have always been the ones who fight the least stupidly and most "realistically" in 40k. Yet for gameplay reasons I see why they're necessary.

 Archonate wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Um... But Tau have no psykers. So without allies, they would be hitting much less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless the point was to show that IG have orders to get around the low BS, while Tau need to bring a secondary army just to try and make the basic troop guardsman level.

He was probably saying that Tau took an Eldar ally. In any case, Tau have markerlights to get around their low BS, as well as to deprive their target of cover saves. They do not need a secondary army.

Tau used eldar, IG a libby. both used allies and it was because they both leveled the playing field with twin linking. every army that is shooty should be using one if you ask me. (orks just cant )

as for markerlights replacing allies, Hmm....its115 pts for a farseer and 5 man pathfinder team. two units one that can attach to your squad. 128pts for a 4 man pathfinder team and a devilfish they cant use if they want to be any benefit to the army at all. you can pretty much guarantee the unit you give twin linking to the ability to do so, markerlights its a little more meh. 2 hits caused will definately increase the skill, but the unit does NOTHING else and paid more for it. also pathfinders are target priority one and the subject of any and all firepower that can reach them effectively. since Tau are dependant on markerlights, GW felt it was a good idea to give it to a handfull of squishy guys who cant move or otherwise they cant shoot the marker. the pathfinders can still shoot their sniper rifles at a target, even getting precision shots. (bye bye MM guy in the MEQ squad)

mathhammer it works something like this; 9 hits from farseer, 7.92 from pathfinders (assuming 2 ML hits and going to bs 5 and not 4)

so the farseer does it better, and gives you a unit that can assasinate key targets in a squad, and isn't too shabby in CC. Pathfinders just pray for cover saves and no assaults.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
That's 205 points minimum! Devilfish are tough, but they just don't offer enough for their high price. Especially since the fish doesn't count as scoring anymore.

Their weapons are too limited only having 5 S5 shots at 18" range.

And if you're trying to move your devilfish up at all, then you're risking the loss of shrouding. If you really want to use FW, just stick them in a ADL and enjoy 30" range.

Yeah, but thats 205 points of pure annoyment for your opponent. The DF can soak up lots of damage (7 BS4 LC shots to strip a single HP?), and once the enemy gets close (and he has to, as long-range shots are fairly ineffective) then you can play FoF with the attackers. And it is a very heart-warming sight to see half of the enemy army trying to take out a single DF and 12 FWs while the rest of your army is busy doing whatevery they want.

If your opponent is being dumb and doing something like that, then any tactic would have worked on him. Say your points and don't bother with the devilfish. Tough vehicles with little firepower for the rpice are mostly useless, that why you don't see imperial armies load up on land raiders. Sure they're tough, but they just don't offer the firepower for the cost, especially since you can't hide in them and score anymore. Every once in a while someone use them to assault with, and similarly if the devilfish has 5 fire points like a chimera, we'd use it too.

 Harriticus wrote:
The inevitable "close combat specialist" Tau will make a sad panda for fluff reasons, as Tau have always been the ones who fight the least stupidly and most "realistically" in 40k. Yet for gameplay reasons I see why they're necessary.

I thought there where rumors that it’s not really going to be CC tau but danger close high risk high reward type shooting squads but I may be wrong.

Id just wished they would allow for fail safe detonators on drones. I mean they are just drones and if I recall all there tech like sensor towers all detonate if captured by the enemy.