In a one vs one fight, who stands a better chance of winning, Lelith or Abbadon?
What other IC's stand a match against her on the tabletop?

I'd be surprised if she took a single wound off Abbadon. It's a total no contest.

One is a renowned arena gladiator.

The other is a 10,000 year old genetically engineered super soldier wielding daemonic, sentient weapons and weapons of ages so advanced as to appear magical, and infused with power as the mortal champion of dark gods who has fought shed blood in just about every imaginable battlefield against every imaginable foe.

Fluff or tabletop - Abaddon by a country mile.

Lelith's getting an unsaved Wound 11% of the time with 7 Attacks (4 +2 from A League Apart +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 9, Abbadon's getting an unsaved Wound 9% of the time with 5 Attacks (4 +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 1. I'd actually call it for Lelith if she had Eternal Warrior, but she doesn't, so one hit from Abbadon downs her.

I'd call it Abbadon, but Lelith takes two Wounds off him first (expected 0.77 Wounds per round of combat for Lelith and 0.45 Wounds per round of combat for Abbadon).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
One is a renowned arena gladiator.

The other is a 10,000 year old genetically engineered super soldier wielding daemonic, sentient weapons and weapons of ages so advanced as to appear magical, and infused with power as the mortal champion of dark gods who has fought shed blood in just about every imaginable battlefield against every imaginable foe.

A renowned arena gladiator with WS 9 who ignores armor regardless of what weapon she's using? Wait, forgot to factor in Lelith's Shardnet, and Abbadon's weapons are both Specialist Weapons. Abbadon's only getting three Attacks, expected 0.27 Wounds per round of combat, compared to Lelith's unchanged 0.77, both die on round four of close combat, but Lelith's higher Initiative means she kills Abbadon first. Call it even on the tabletop.


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 jetstumpy wrote:
In a one vs one fight, who stands a better chance of winning, Lelith or Abbadon?
What other IC's stand a match against her on the tabletop?

As far as who I'd pit against Lelith in close combat, give a generic Grey Knight character a Nemesis sword and a storm shield for a 2++ Inv, he'll grind her down soon enough. Otherwise throw something at her that she can't wound with S 3 and plasma grenades, anything with any close combat ability and T7+ should be fine.

No model in the GK codex is permitted both NFS and storm shield. A warding stave will fill that role of 2++ in combat.

I would pit either Draigo, Mephiston, or a thunderwolf Lord with SS/frost blade against Lelith in CC. They only need to land once to gib her, and Lelith needing 6s to wound someone isn't good for her. Lower WS, wounding on 2+ with no rerolls means that such a model making 4 attacks will have a 45% a turn to kill Lelith on the spot. Draigo is a little hazier with a MC weapon instead of 4A but with that many attacks, MC is rather close to +1A in effect. Mephiston lacks an invuln and dies relatively quick but between Unleash Rage and Transfixing gaze, his ability to generate rerolls and force saves kicks his chance to kill up rather nicely.

Incidentally, because Abaddon *does* have two specialist weapons, he does get to claim the +1A for two weapons and thus makes four attacks against Lelith. He only needs one from the Shredding talon to land and he actually has a 51% chance per turn to kill lelith with it.

You can't use so-called expected wounds to calculate this, you need to use the chance that lelith's opponent lands at least one attacks if they're at least S6 or force weapon armed.

Having killed said Dark Eldar woman more times than I care to think about with Kharn, Abbadon and others I dare vote for Abbadon The Despoiler.

AnomanderRake wrote:

A renowned arena gladiator with WS 9 who ignores armor regardless of what weapon she's using? Wait, forgot to factor in Lelith's Shardnet, and Abbadon's weapons are both Specialist Weapons. Abbadon's only getting three Attacks, expected 0.27 Wounds per round of combat, compared to Lelith's unchanged 0.77, both die on round four of close combat, but Lelith's higher Initiative means she kills Abbadon first. Call it even on the tabletop.

Methinks you're not quite accounting for everything here.

Abaddon has 4A base, and both weapons are Specialist Weapons so he gets the +1A (the rule isn't that you need 1 identical weapons, rather both weapons must have the Specialist Weapon rule) so he's still rolling with 4 attacks at worst even if denied the bonus for 2 CC weapons, can get an additional D6 attacks with one weapon or can ID Lelith and reroll failed wounds with his other weapon, plus he's got Rage and Counterattack so if he charges he's got 6 attacks and 5 if lelith charges.

Even with only 3 attacks, using Abby's claw, you're looking 3 attacks hitting on 4's resulting in 1.5 hits, S8 rerolling failed wounds is 1.46 wounds, lelith saves 2/3 and we end up at .48 wounds each round that inflict ID.

I believe lelith strikes at normal S3? If so, then we're looking at 7 attacks, 4.66 hits, .77 wounds and Abby's 4+ invul drops that to .388

So even with only 3 attacks (when he should have at least 4 assuming I'm not missing anything) he's not only inflicting more wounds but also inflicting ID.


Am I missing something? It's possible, but I don't think so

I'm not arguing either way, as I don't have a Chaos 'dex.

Lilith has a Shardnet, so Abby gets -1 attack.
Lilith has 4A base +1 for 2CCW and +whatever from WS difference. I don't know what Abby's WS is, but I would think that would be about +3 or 4.

Only +2, Abbadon is a cut above your typical Marine HQ

 AnomanderRake wrote:

As far as who I'd pit against Lelith in close combat, give a generic Grey Knight character a Nemesis sword and a storm shield for a 2++ Inv, he'll grind her down soon enough. Otherwise throw something at her that she can't wound with S 3 and plasma grenades, anything with any close combat ability and T7+ should be fine.

I wish my Stormshield had 2+ invuls.

Don't worry, Draigo is the only GK with a SS and he doesn't have a NFS.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Don't worry, Draigo is the only GK with a SS and he doesn't have a NFS.

Draigo does not have a NFW, but the Titansword is a Master crafted Force weapon. so he can still insta-gib.

Yeah, I was responding about GKs getting a 2++ with a Stormshield.

Abaddon in fluff. Because he's Abaddon and helps the narrative.

Abaddon on the table. If I've done my calcs right. Wielding Drach'nyen, he has 4+Daemon weapon, and dependent on who gets the charge if at all, he may have another +1 or 2 on top for his MoK.

Lelith hits firsts with 6 attacks, 4 hits, 0.66 wounds, Abaddon takes 0.33 wounds. Which rounds to 0.

Abaddon hits back with average of 8 attacks with Drach'nyen assuming no charge bonus and average roll of 4 on Daemon Weapon.
4 hits, 3.33 wounds. Lelith's 3++ saves 2.22, leaving 1 woumd which kills her due to ID

Fascinating math so far

However there are some differences.

Anyone have a definitive math hammer?

Lets just say both charge and then both do not charge.

my guess is Abbadon

 Deadshot wrote:
Abaddon in fluff. Because he's Abaddon and helps the narrative.

Abaddon on the table. If I've done my calcs right. Wielding Drach'nyen, he has 4+Daemon weapon, and dependent on who gets the charge if at all, he may have another +1 or 2 on top for his MoK.

Lelith hits firsts with 6 attacks, 4 hits, 0.66 wounds, Abaddon takes 0.33 wounds. Which rounds to 0.

Abaddon hits back with average of 8 attacks with Drach'nyen assuming no charge bonus and average roll of 4 on Daemon Weapon.
4 hits, 3.33 wounds. Lelith's 3++ saves 2.22, leaving 1 woumd which kills her due to ID

You're not asking the right question, mathematically. You can't just take the mean and assume it's dispositive either, you need to use binomial distribution. The correct analysis is 'what is the chance that at least one of abaddon's attacks generates an unsaved wound?' Abaddon can only gib Lelith if he's attacking with the Talon, as hits from the daemon weapon are S5 for him. So he doesn't generate the d6 attacks from the daemon weapon if he's looking for the ID. An attack from the Talon has 1/2 to hit, 35/36 to wound, and 1/3 to be unsaved, so 181/216 to be nonlethal. In order to generate zero wounds, ALL attacks must be nonlethal, and thus we take the chance of failure to the nth power, where n is the number of events, aka, number of attacks. For four Talon attacks to fail, the chance is about 49%. The chance for five to fail is about 41%. Lelith's chance to generate lethal damage on the first turn of combat is trivial, and to do so in any timely manner is improbable as well. We have p<.05 on the fourth round of combat for Abaddon attacks to still fail to kill her, so we can reasonably assume that as an endpoint. In four turns of combat including the charge, lelith generates 29 attacks. Probability of Lelith generating four or more unsaved wounds on abaddon by this time is only about 7.5% so we can conclude abbadon will usually splatter her. Against WS7/T5/3++ (eg, Draigo) she has only a 2.5% chance to generate 4 wounds by round four, and against WS6/T5/3++ (Thunderwolf Lord), she only has about 3.3% to go lethal by round 4. At this point she has likely been gibbed by a frost blade, Hammerhand, or the Talon of Horus. Against Mephiston and his extra wound, she has a 22% chance to kill him by round 4 but he has by far the best chance to kill her between Unleash Rage and Transfixing gaze making him very likely to get at least some rerolls. If he transfixes at least once, we have p<0.05 that he kills her by round 3.

In short, Lelith becomes horribly inefficient as target toughness increases beyond 4, especially in the presence of invulnerable saves.

I would only like to add a couple things people havnt factored in on these battles. 1 is if the person uses the daemon weapon and then rolls that one abby becomes...well just ouch. second if the GK player is going to use any of his Powers and perils of the warp. and 3rd is what if the player rolls like me? (that is 5/6 dice are ones!)

Nevermind...

Lelith might have pain tokens, though.

Abbaddon is going to use the Talon, so no FnP for Lelith.

Furious charge might make a difference though Her math on turn one is a bit better if she gets the charge.

I'll agree that Abaddon has the edge in this fight. Lelith's 3+ Inv in CC has to fail sometime, and usually does for me. Her weapons ignoring regular armour is great, until you run into an invulnerable save...

 Vaktathi wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

A renowned arena gladiator with WS 9 who ignores armor regardless of what weapon she's using? Wait, forgot to factor in Lelith's Shardnet, and Abbadon's weapons are both Specialist Weapons. Abbadon's only getting three Attacks, expected 0.27 Wounds per round of combat, compared to Lelith's unchanged 0.77, both die on round four of close combat, but Lelith's higher Initiative means she kills Abbadon first. Call it even on the tabletop.

Methinks you're not quite accounting for everything here.

Abaddon has 4A base, and both weapons are Specialist Weapons so he gets the +1A (the rule isn't that you need 1 identical weapons, rather both weapons must have the Specialist Weapon rule) so he's still rolling with 4 attacks at worst even if denied the bonus for 2 CC weapons, can get an additional D6 attacks with one weapon or can ID Lelith and reroll failed wounds with his other weapon, plus he's got Rage and Counterattack so if he charges he's got 6 attacks and 5 if lelith charges.

Even with only 3 attacks, using Abby's claw, you're looking 3 attacks hitting on 4's resulting in 1.5 hits, S8 rerolling failed wounds is 1.46 wounds, lelith saves 2/3 and we end up at .48 wounds each round that inflict ID.

I believe lelith strikes at normal S3? If so, then we're looking at 7 attacks, 4.66 hits, .77 wounds and Abby's 4+ invul drops that to .388

So even with only 3 attacks (when he should have at least 4 assuming I'm not missing anything) he's not only inflicting more wounds but also inflicting ID.


Am I missing something? It's possible, but I don't think so

Abbadon's hitting on a 5+ and Lelith on a 3+, WS 7 v. WS 9, and you're not factoring in Lelith's Shardnet (-1 Attack to every model in base contact with her). I assumed neither charged; I missed the Shred rule and miscalculated Lelith's to-wound roll, looks like that weights it a bit more towards Abbadon. Rerolling to Wound gives Abbadon a slightly better chance at things with 10.5% chance to wound instead of 9% (rerolling a 2+ doesn't really change a lot), Lelith's wounding on 6% of cases, if Abbadon's got four attacks still that makes it 0.42 wounds per round of combat. I'd put it as victory to Abbadon, but Lelith wounds him once or twice.

On the other hand, Lelith is a full hundred points cheaper than Abbadon, which gives us leeway to put an Archon with an Agonizer in the fight on Lelith's side, who is dealing another 0.62 wounds per combat round, giving the two a fighting chance of killing Abbadon by virtue of higher Initiative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait...bugger, that's changed...never mind, Abbadon is hitting on a 4+ after all, Abbadon wins.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lelith's getting an unsaved Wound 11% of the time with 7 Attacks (4 +2 from A League Apart +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 9, Abbadon's getting an unsaved Wound 9% of the time with 5 Attacks (4 +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 1. I'd actually call it for Lelith if she had Eternal Warrior, but she doesn't, so one hit from Abbadon downs her.

Right, but here's the thing, either Abaddon doesn't have only 5 attacks, or 1 is enough. With the sword on average he is putting out 7-8, 9-10 if it is on the charge, not just 5. And with the Claw that one unsaved wound kills her outright. She really does not stand a chance against him.

Abaddon invokes the powers of Slaanesh, something that is well within his power as the champion of Chaos who has made many pacts with all 4 Gods.

Lelith becomes a plaything in the Warp for eternity.

Or kills him in his sleep, after one wild night

Abby only hits on a 5+ if he rolls a 1 for daemon weapon, you still hit on a 4+ if they have a higher WS up to the point it becomes more than double. Seriously she wounds him on a 6 baring a pain token charge and any of his wounding attacks in return causes her insides to shower about like a pinata.

There is a reason she is almost 100 points cheaper.

Abby VS Swarmy so, might as well continue the carnage.....

"Wait...bugger, that's changed...never mind, Abbadon is hitting on a 4+ after all, Abbadon wins. "

Nope, the chart for close combat hasnt changed in decades.

Abbadon...he's huge

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

A renowned arena gladiator with WS 9 who ignores armor regardless of what weapon she's using? Wait, forgot to factor in Lelith's Shardnet, and Abbadon's weapons are both Specialist Weapons. Abbadon's only getting three Attacks, expected 0.27 Wounds per round of combat, compared to Lelith's unchanged 0.77, both die on round four of close combat, but Lelith's higher Initiative means she kills Abbadon first. Call it even on the tabletop.

Methinks you're not quite accounting for everything here.

Abaddon has 4A base, and both weapons are Specialist Weapons so he gets the +1A (the rule isn't that you need 1 identical weapons, rather both weapons must have the Specialist Weapon rule) so he's still rolling with 4 attacks at worst even if denied the bonus for 2 CC weapons, can get an additional D6 attacks with one weapon or can ID Lelith and reroll failed wounds with his other weapon, plus he's got Rage and Counterattack so if he charges he's got 6 attacks and 5 if lelith charges.

Even with only 3 attacks, using Abby's claw, you're looking 3 attacks hitting on 4's resulting in 1.5 hits, S8 rerolling failed wounds is 1.46 wounds, lelith saves 2/3 and we end up at .48 wounds each round that inflict ID.

I believe lelith strikes at normal S3? If so, then we're looking at 7 attacks, 4.66 hits, .77 wounds and Abby's 4+ invul drops that to .388

So even with only 3 attacks (when he should have at least 4 assuming I'm not missing anything) he's not only inflicting more wounds but also inflicting ID.


Am I missing something? It's possible, but I don't think so

Abbadon's hitting on a 5+ and Lelith on a 3+, WS 7 v. WS 9,

Sorry, but the weapon skill table is completely gimp and the value of a point of weapon skill is lower than a point of initiative and nearly infinitely worse than a point of strength. You need to have half the opponent's weapon skill to hit on 5+, this means that you need to be a regular Space Marine or worse to hit Lelith on 5+, all the HQ Space Marines near enough gets away with it and only struggles against certain murder-death-kill daemons.

Fluffwise i guess abbadon wins.

SM aren't the whole universe, no matter what GW PR says.

There are a lot of SC and HQ types out there with 4 or less WS.

That said, Lelith isn't really an HQ-killer for me. She's a small-unit killer. I've seen her chew through units like Meganobz, , Incubi and non-Cheesesheild termies etc with ease.

She's ok in a challenge, but hardly godly. If the opponent is T 3 she's a deal better, especially if they aren't packing an instakill weapon. She's very deadly against Eldar and DE characters, for example.

The Swarmlord would be a fairer fight than Lelith for roughly equal points.

Abaddon gets charge

Swarmlord hits on 3s, for 2.66 hits, and wounds 1.77. Abaddon saves 0.44 so takes 1.33, equvilent to 1 wounds.

Assuming he uses his Sword, he gets 11 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved.

They strike at Int 6 each so next turn, due to loss of Rage bonus, odds go slightly in Swarmlord's favour. It was a straight draw in Abaddon's turn.

Swarmlord now gives himself PE with Swarm Leader so ends up hitting with 3.55 attacks, wounding with 3.16, Abaddon saves 0.79, takes 2.370 wounds, so has 1 left, Swarmlord has 3

Abbaddon has now 8 attacks, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds and Swarmlord suffers 0.66 (round to 1) wounds so now they ar1 wound:2 in the Swarmlord's favour

Swarmlord kills Abaddon next round.



All based on average rolls and that Abaddon woud use his Sword. Personally I would as the extra attacks are vital. Also note that if the Swarmlord gets the Charge the odds tip in his favour as Abbaddon has less attacks, and will have Paroxysm cast, so will only hit on 5+ and may or may not have lost a wound, depending on HoW and Leech Essence being successful. Also there is the possibility of rolling 1s for the Daemon weapon which factor into the Swarmlord's favour, however there is the possibililty of rolling 2s or 3s which also help SL or 5+ which aid Abaddon. I didn't factor in overwatch as Abaddon has so slim a chance of wounding the SL with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
SM aren't the whole universe, no matter what GW PR says.

There are a lot of SC and HQ types out there with 4 or less WS.

That said, Lelith isn't really an HQ-killer for me. She's a small-unit killer. I've seen her chew through units like Meganobz, , Incubi and non-Cheesesheild termies etc with ease.

She's ok in a challenge, but hardly godly. If the opponent is T 3 she's a deal better, especially if they aren't packing an instakill weapon. She's very deadly against Eldar and DE characters, for example.

Well I suppose the fluff supports that. She fights DE and by extension Eldar, in arenas 24/7 so she woulf excell.

NHce one Deadshot Can you mathammer this for me:
Swarmy on the charge
Abby on the charge
Neither on the charge
Both on the charge
Swarmy casts no powers

Where Lelith is best is at engaging mid-range characters (like Chaplains, Librarians, etc.) and engaging elite infantry units. Lelith will absolutely ruin a unit like Sanguinary Guard and the like all on her own. But truly fighty big things she has an issue with, primarily due to her S3 T3.

Most every named Chaos SC will likely defeat Lelith in CC. They're just too strong. Abaddon/Kharn/Typhus/Ahriman/Fabius due to having greater staying power and only needing to inflict one wound to ID Lelith before she can eat through all 3/4 of theirs, typically killing her by the end of the 2nd round.

The only one that's close is Lucius because he's can't ID her, though he's still getting a higher average wound rate in with getting 9 attacks as a result of Lelith's WS9 on top of rerolling failed wounds and inflicting hits back when he makes an invul save, so for every 2 he's taking he's inflicting 3 back, though Lelith gets to strike first which roughly balances it out.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The only one that's close is Lucius because he's can't ID her, though he's still getting a higher average wound rate in with getting 9 attacks as a result of Lelith's WS9 on top of rerolling failed wounds and inflicting hits back when he makes an invul save, so for every 2 he's taking he's inflicting 3 back, though Lelith gets to strike first which roughly balances it out.

I don't think you did the math quite right. Lelith hits on 3s, wounds on 5s, and Lucius saves on 5s; each attack inflicts 0.07 wounds. She's got 6 or 7 attacks depending on the charge (remember, Lucius removes one), for a total of 0.43 or 0.50 wounds per phase. Lucius returns with 12 attacks (13 on the charge), hitting .5, wounding .88, and are saved .66, giving him 1.7 or 1.88 wounds per phase. So he inflicts 3 times as many wounds, not 50% more.

I did do my math wrong, however it actually should be a bit more in Lelith's favor if anything.

Lucius doesn't get quite that many attacks, he's not adding their WS to his attacks, he's replacing his attacks with their WS, and doesn't have a 2nd CCW (the lash isn't counted as one in his rules).

Also, each of Leliths attacks should be averaging 0.148 wounds (2/3x1/3x2/3=.148148). Assuming 7 attacks (4 base, 1 for two CCW's and 2 for higher WS) that nets an average of 1.037 wounds.

While each of Lucius' attacks is generating an average of .1466 wounds (HIT1/2xWOUND(2/3+(2/3x1/3))xBEATSV1/3), he gets 8 attacks (9 for replacing A with WS of opponent, -1 for Lelith's shardnet), gives us 1.173 average wounds. If however we factor in Armor of Shrieking Souls, that adds an additional .115 wounds, giving us a total expected average wound output of 1.29.

So we end up with a 1:1.33 ratio here, so for roughly every 3 wounds Lelith does, Lucius does 4. Lelith gets to strike first but by the end of the 2nd round of combat Lucius has only suffered 2 wounds on average while Lelith suffers an average of 2.66, meaning that about two thirds of the time Lucius will have killed her off by now and about a third of the time she lives, if she does she'll likely kill lucius the next round before he can swing.

Thus they're actually a little more equal than my original estimate, with an important but not overwhelming advantage to Lucius.

 Ratius wrote:
NHce one Deadshot Can you mathammer this for me:
Swarmy on the charge
Abby on the charge
Neither on the charge
Both on the charge
Swarmy casts no powers

Swarmy on Charge

Swarmlord gives PE (all rerolls included it hits/wounds/Abaddon's saves) to self, casts Paroxysm (its his turn, why not). Overwatch grants les than 0.1 wounds. Abaddon counterattacks.

Swarmlord gets 5 attacks, 3.88 wounds, 2.82 wounds, 2.12 of which are unsaved. Abaddon has 2 wounds left.

Abaddon has 4 attacks, 2 CCWs, Counter Attack and his Daemon Wrapon, average rolling 4. He has 10 attacks but Paroxysm reduces him to WS1 so he only gets 3.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.55 unsaved.

Swarmlord 4/ Abaddon 2

Swarmlord hits with 2.66 attacks now PE is gone. 1.77 wounds, 1.33 unsaved.

Abaddon has 9 attacks now. Paroxysm still in effect. Hits 3, wounds 1, 0.5 saved/unsaved. I'll assume it was unsaved.

Swarmlord 3:Abaddon 1


Swarmlord now regrants PE to himself. 3.11 hits 2.42 wounds, 1.81 unsaved. Abaddon dead.

Abaddon still strikes back with 9 attacks. 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 unsaved b

Score
Swarmlord 2 wounds
Abaddon dead.



Niether gets charge and Swarmlord uses no powers

Seeing as it is impossible to determine who's turn it is , the Swarmlord does not get use of powers, including Swarmleader, and Abaddon gets no Overwatch or Counter attack.

Swarmlord hits 2.66, wounds 1.77, 1.33 unsaved.

Abaddon hits 4.5 times, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 unsaved.

So if niether get the charge, Overwatch, Paroxysm and Swarmleader and Counter attack were removed, each turn they would swing away at each other removing 1 wound. This neans that the Swarmlord wilould be left standing with 1 wound while Abaddon dies.

I do not know what "both getting the Charge" means.

Umm why is lucius getting 12 attacks? I like the guy but he doesn't get 12 attacks vs WS9. He gets 9 attacks with shred. You do not add the opponents WS to your own attacks. Their WS is simply your attack number. I give it to lelith against lucius honestly. Lucius is probably one of the weakest chaos characters. A challenge based character who struggles in challenges because he has no AP2 and is himself only 3+ save.

Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.44 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

 Deadshot wrote:
Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.22 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

How does one calculate lucius armour of souls than?

It grants an extra Str 4, AP2 hit when he makes a save, IIRC. But he didn't make any saves so it doesn't apply.

If he makes an Inv save it also works, from memory. So it does factor in

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If he makes an Inv save it also works, from memory. So it does factor in

Near positive that you're correct. Any save by the armor (armor save or invuln), triggers the hit.

However, as he didn't make any saves by my math, the effect was not triggered.

He makes saves on a 5+ chances are he will make 1 of his 3 saves. You can't just say that because in 1 round of combat chances are he fails his save that he will fail it every time. Lilith will need 4 rounds of combat on average to kill lucius. Lucius will need 3 rounds on average to kill Lilith.

Honestly though I thought it was generally agreed that Lilith was one of the poorer choices in the book and that taking pretty much any other HQ was better. Including a "make your own" Succubi or whatever the witch leaders were called.

 Deadshot wrote:
Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.44 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

I thought the order of operations for stats modification was multiplication, addition, and then set value. I don't have the Chaos Codex so I might be wrong, but if Lucius's ability sets his number of attacks to the opponents weapon skill, wouldn't that apply AFTER Lelith's Shardnet?

Even if Lilith did win Abby would probably just be deus ex machina-ed back to safety by his plot armour, like it did with Eldrad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nope, the chart for close combat hasnt changed in decades.

That chart hasn't even existed for decades. It's only been 14 years, so one decade and change.

Although you are correct that it has never changed.

Thought it came in in 2nd ediotion, so prior to 1998?

2nd edition close combat was wildly different.

Lelith is prettier.

A far better question would be who (or what) can possibly kill Abaddon the Despoiler in a one on one challenge?

A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

The Sanguinor.
Or Kaldor Draigo.

As some haters will say: Matt Ward.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
The Sanguinor.
Or Kaldor Draigo.

As some haters will say: Matt Ward.

Sanguinor can't do it, he only has a Power Sword. He can't even get through Abaddon's armor save - and neither can Draigo, because he has a force sword, which are only AP3.

TedNugent wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

No, its around a 40% chance for the HS to fail. You can't DTW it as it doesn't target Abaddon.

Ld10 psychic test and 3+ to hit = (33/36)(2/3)=61.11% chance of Abaddon getting toasted.

TedNugent wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

Ghaz, if he's on a waagh,can faceroll him, with a bit of luck.

I've seen him go down to other SC's , but math-hammer wise it's beating the odds.

Usually i just shoot the fether.

Seriously? It would be like that scene in the lost ark. Lelith would be jumping and dancing around swinging her daggers, then Abbadon would just glance at her and blast her with a bolt of dark energy. Either that or he would just half-heartedly slice her in half with Drach'nyen.

 Ascalam wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

Ghaz, if he's on a waagh,can faceroll him, with a bit of luck.

I've seen him go down to other SC's , but math-hammer wise it's beating the odds.

Usually i just shoot the fether.

I don't even think Ghaz could kill him, because he only gets one turn of 2++ before it goes back to a 5++. Maybe if he was in a unit of Nobz with a Wagh banner and a Painboy.

 Grey Templar wrote:


No, its around a 40% chance for the HS to fail. You can't DTW it as it doesn't target Abaddon.

Ld10 psychic test and 3+ to hit = (33/36)(2/3)=61.11% chance of Abaddon getting toasted.

Abaddon is Weapon Skill 7, so you're hitting on 4's...

Necron Overlord with MSS + Warscythe + Phase Shifter
If Abby doesn't have any AP2 attacks throw in a Sempiternal Weave.

Not sure if it'll work, but it might.

Abaddon has WS 7 so its a 4+ to hit.


As proven by my above mathhammer, the Swarmlord could.

A Fortuned Eldrad could, if he doesn't get squashed by the Talon of Horus that is!

Iranna.

This is such a one sided question of course abaddon would win, but you don't deserve an answer, I'll say chuck norris will win

Dude, lighten up

If they don't deserve an answer, don't post one.

Saves on flame wars.

 Deadshot wrote:
Abaddon has WS 7 so its a 4+ to hit.


As proven by my above mathhammer, the Swarmlord could.

This, I've played the fight out with a close friend many times now. (6th) no powers, with powers, charge or no charge,

Swarmlord forcing the re-rolls on the INV saves and simply being a bad mofo keeps Abbaddon in check. Basically a 50/50 fight.

A 2+ save, otherwise naked Hive Tyrant will also beat Abaddon if he has one of Iron Arm, Endurance, Enfeeble, or Warp Speed (which is pretty likely).

Everyone underestimates the Hive Tyrant.

I was going to say Tyrant, but the reliance on Biomancy which can't be effectively mathhammer due to random selection, reallythrows it out thewindow.

 Deadshot wrote:
I was going to say Tyrant, but the reliance on Biomancy which can't be effectively mathhammer due to random selection, reallythrows it out thewindow.

I'm not the king of mathhammer, but wouldn't it be possible to mathhammer the possibilities of getting the outcomes of biomancy rolls (and the likelyhood of them going off)?
Afterall there are "only" six possible random outcomes and the number goes down if you roll all your psychic powers on one table only.

Such level of detail is not really necessary. If the Hive Tyrant has and successfully casts any of those 4 listed powers, he is going to win, on average.

On average, he'll also have at least one of those powers (2 rolls, 4 results give him what he wants) and be able to cast it successfully.

If he doesn't have any of those powers, or fails to cast one every time, or generates enough Perils, the Hive Tyrant will lose, on average.

When did this become a ''beat Abaddon'' thread?

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
When did this become a ''beat Abaddon'' thread?

Three seconds in, when it was painfully obvious that Lilith had no chance of doing so.

 taudau wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I was going to say Tyrant, but the reliance on Biomancy which can't be effectively mathhammer due to random selection, reallythrows it out thewindow.

I'm not the king of mathhammer, but wouldn't it be possible to mathhammer the possibilities of getting the outcomes of biomancy rolls (and the likelyhood of them going off)?
Afterall there are "only" six possible random outcomes and the number goes down if you roll all your psychic powers on one table only.

The problem is though, that each roll is taken individually, and the average roll is 3.5, whih is rounded to 4, which means he has the useless Leech Lifwe. The next roll, as per mathhammer, would just keep getting 4, so the next closst to the average, which ios Endurance, is used. Endurance is nice, but FNP and a 5+ regen isn't going to change much. Besides those the only power we can factor in, by pure mathhammer, is Smite, which s ok but not entirely useful. Maybe the AP helps, but needing a Psychic Test, followed by Str 4, and BS 3, and Abaddon's 4++, puts chance of wound at 0.333, before factoring in the chance of psychic failure.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lelith's getting an unsaved Wound 11% of the time with 7 Attacks (4 +2 from A League Apart +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 9, Abbadon's getting an unsaved Wound 9% of the time with 5 Attacks (4 +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 1. I'd actually call it for Lelith if she had Eternal Warrior, but she doesn't, so one hit from Abbadon downs her.

Right, but here's the thing, either Abaddon doesn't have only 5 attacks, or 1 is enough. With the sword on average he is putting out 7-8, 9-10 if it is on the charge, not just 5. And with the Claw that one unsaved wound kills her outright. She really does not stand a chance against him.

I was assuming that Abbadon would rather ID Lelith on one hit than get a few more attacks and have to chew through all three of her Wounds...

Abaddon must use either his sword or his Claw. He doesn't benifit from both anymore.

In this case, the Claw is best because one wound is all it takes.

 Deadshot wrote:

The problem is though, that each roll is taken individually, and the average roll is 3.5, whih is rounded to 4, which means he has the useless Leech Lifwe. The next roll, as per mathhammer, would just keep getting 4, so the next closst to the average, which ios Endurance, is used. Endurance is nice, but FNP and a 5+ regen isn't going to change much. Besides those the only power we can factor in, by pure mathhammer, is Smite, which s ok but not entirely useful. Maybe the AP helps, but needing a Psychic Test, followed by Str 4, and BS 3, and Abaddon's 4++, puts chance of wound at 0.333, before factoring in the chance of psychic failure.

You may want to refrain from trying to use math to prove anything in the future. None of this is sound logic.

Then please explain what is unclear.

Average roll on D6=3.5which rounds to 4, giving Leech Life.

Second roll then gives 4 (as each roll, even when rolled simultaneously, is essentially taken in a vacuum, with the other roll having no effect on the result) continiously based on averages, therefore, go to the next closest, 3 which is Endurance. I said that FNP and IWND is bice but doesn't completely change the game.

I then said that Smite, being the Primaris, is the only Guarenteed power. However, even without taking a psychic test, maths dictates that Abaddon would not take a wound. Factor inthe potential failure and the chances of wounding Abaddon with it decrease even further.



What is the problem?

There is no average roll on a D6. Its completely random as all results have the same chance.

Its only when you have multiple rolls that are dependent that you can plot averages.

 Iranna wrote:
A Fortuned Eldrad could, if he doesn't get squashed by the Talon of Horus that is!

Iranna.

Ah what? It would take Eldrad 19-20 rounds of combat to kill Abaddon, so where on earth do you get the idea that he would beat Abby?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lelith's getting an unsaved Wound 11% of the time with 7 Attacks (4 +2 from A League Apart +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 9, Abbadon's getting an unsaved Wound 9% of the time with 5 Attacks (4 +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 1. I'd actually call it for Lelith if she had Eternal Warrior, but she doesn't, so one hit from Abbadon downs her.

Right, but here's the thing, either Abaddon doesn't have only 5 attacks, or 1 is enough. With the sword on average he is putting out 7-8, 9-10 if it is on the charge, not just 5. And with the Claw that one unsaved wound kills her outright. She really does not stand a chance against him.

I was assuming that Abbadon would rather ID Lelith on one hit than get a few more attacks and have to chew through all three of her Wounds...

Right, but if you were assuming that why did you say he causes only one unsaved wound? That's enough.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is no average roll on a D6. Its completely random as all results have the same chance.

Actually no, that's not how it works. There is no average roll, but there is an average result, and given that Warhammer doesn't deal in absolutes, you can easily average one dice (for instance, it is a 4+ to hit, not a 4 to hit, so it's the chances of rolling a 4, 5, or 6).

Forgive me. My teachers and personal rolling led me to believe otherwise. Then pray tell how you calculate which powers you get, without assumption?

 Deadshot wrote:
Forgive me. My teachers and personal rolling led me to believe otherwise. Then pray tell how you calculate which powers you get, without assumption?

Use every case.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Iranna wrote:
A Fortuned Eldrad could, if he doesn't get squashed by the Talon of Horus that is!

Iranna.

Ah what? It would take Eldrad 19-20 rounds of combat to kill Abaddon, so where on earth do you get the idea that he would beat Abby?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lelith's getting an unsaved Wound 11% of the time with 7 Attacks (4 +2 from A League Apart +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 9, Abbadon's getting an unsaved Wound 9% of the time with 5 Attacks (4 +1 from two hand weapons) at Initiative 1. I'd actually call it for Lelith if she had Eternal Warrior, but she doesn't, so one hit from Abbadon downs her.

Right, but here's the thing, either Abaddon doesn't have only 5 attacks, or 1 is enough. With the sword on average he is putting out 7-8, 9-10 if it is on the charge, not just 5. And with the Claw that one unsaved wound kills her outright. She really does not stand a chance against him.

I was assuming that Abbadon would rather ID Lelith on one hit than get a few more attacks and have to chew through all three of her Wounds...

Right, but if you were assuming that why did you say he causes only one unsaved wound? That's enough.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is no average roll on a D6. Its completely random as all results have the same chance.

Actually no, that's not how it works. There is no average roll, but there is an average result, and given that Warhammer doesn't deal in absolutes, you can easily average one dice (for instance, it is a 4+ to hit, not a 4 to hit, so it's the chances of rolling a 4, 5, or 6).

Well, yeah. I was referring to the Psychic table results, which are truly random as each roll is completely different and multiple rolls on the table don't have a major effect.

Lelith has no chance. I don't think it matters which weapon Abaddon chooses-both the Talon and Drach'nyen should be more than enough. Lelith has always suffered from her strength. If the devs gave her two agonizers like she always should have had (along with her shardnet-hair of course), we'd be set.

I guess the reason they don't give her two agonizers is that GW doesn't want the game to be rated M or worse.

I fail to see how 2 agonizers would make it more M then it already is?

Game wise: Lelith doesn't have a chance.

Fluff wise: she's already dead. Killed by a salamander chaplain in one of nick kyme's books. So.. Unless Nurgle is able to steal her soul from slaanesh and turn her into a zombie, the fight ain't gonna happen.

Well, she probably has the typical DE way of cheating death. A homunculous probably has already cloned her.

clively wrote:
Game wise: Lelith doesn't have a chance.

Fluff wise: she's already dead. Killed by a salamander chaplain in one of nick kyme's books. So.. Unless Nurgle is able to steal her soul from slaanesh and turn her into a zombie, the fight ain't gonna happen.

Different spelling in Kyme's book, not the same person IIRC.

From personally experience Lelith got squashed by Vulkan though..

clively wrote:
Game wise: Lelith doesn't have a chance.

Fluff wise: she's already dead. Killed by a salamander chaplain in one of nick kyme's books. So.. Unless Nurgle is able to steal her soul from slaanesh and turn her into a zombie, the fight ain't gonna happen.

A number of SC's are dead in the books, Eldrad for example, doesn't mean they aren't going to be reused as a SC though.

Urien's hobby is being killed, over and over, in different ways.

 LavuranGuard wrote:

clively wrote:
Game wise: Lelith doesn't have a chance.

Fluff wise: she's already dead. Killed by a salamander chaplain in one of nick kyme's books. So.. Unless Nurgle is able to steal her soul from slaanesh and turn her into a zombie, the fight ain't gonna happen.

Different spelling in Kyme's book, not the same person IIRC.

From personally experience Lelith got squashed by Vulkan though..

To be fair, any marine IC with a decent invulnerable save will dismantle Lilith. She's a bully character, much like Mephiston.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I fail to see how 2 agonizers would make it more M then it already is?

Let's just say that the way I see it, it would be too close a reference to a certain subculture on which DE models are already based. But you're correct in your own way, it's probably M enough as it is.

But gameplay-wise, it would actually make Lelith close to viable. Her only problem besides cost is T5+. She'd eat Abaddon as the main course and Typhus for dessert.

BTW, I don't believe the books are canon. If they were, the devs would likely never allow the writer to kill Eldrad or Abaddon.

Actually I believe Eldrad was killed during a global campaign, the 13th Black Crusade IIRC? Had his soul devoured aboard a black stone fortress. I also believe that the Lelith your referring to wasn't actually Lelith Hesperax, was another Dark Eldar wych called lilith IIRC. As it goes for dead SCs there's a few out there, Lysander (I think) and Tycho to name a couple.

Eldrad was defeated by Slanneshi forces aboard a posessed Blackstone fortress.

It is rumored his Soulstone survives somewhere, but I find that doubtful.

And yes it did happen in the 13th Black Crusade WWC.



Lysander is not dead. His ship was sucked into the warp for a thousand years and eventually returned. He has resumed his position as captain of the 1st.

Tycho is dead.

Sanguinor may or may not be dependent on uour views on whether he is Sanguinius' spirit or the orginal Sang Guard.

Technically, Lucius has died a lot of times.

Eldrad and all the Pheonix Lords have technically died.

Necrons arn't alive so...

Swarmlords and Hive Tyrants die all the time and are recreated. So are most of the Nid SCs.

I came into this thread very late. Considering I use Abaddon as my sole, chief, omnipresent special character in any list.. that is disappointing.

However, I can tell you I don't give a flying feth about Lillith. Run up against her several times, never had trouble. As a matter of fact, I only need to worry about Abaddon in a few special matchups.

1. Draigo (in 5th). In sixth he is a joke.

2. A Swarmlord (which eats Abby for breakfast)

And.. in my Meta.. that's about it. I have never come up against MSS or a Fortune-Seer squad or anything of the like, though I expect that would present problems. Otherwise I can pretty much just slog Abaddon across the field, trust him to survive shooting and pretty much melt anything in close combat. It's kinda awesome.

I vote for a necron overlord with phase shifter warscythe, teseract and mss.

Alpharius