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Abbadon...he's huge

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:

A renowned arena gladiator with WS 9 who ignores armor regardless of what weapon she's using? Wait, forgot to factor in Lelith's Shardnet, and Abbadon's weapons are both Specialist Weapons. Abbadon's only getting three Attacks, expected 0.27 Wounds per round of combat, compared to Lelith's unchanged 0.77, both die on round four of close combat, but Lelith's higher Initiative means she kills Abbadon first. Call it even on the tabletop.

Methinks you're not quite accounting for everything here.

Abaddon has 4A base, and both weapons are Specialist Weapons so he gets the +1A (the rule isn't that you need 1 identical weapons, rather both weapons must have the Specialist Weapon rule) so he's still rolling with 4 attacks at worst even if denied the bonus for 2 CC weapons, can get an additional D6 attacks with one weapon or can ID Lelith and reroll failed wounds with his other weapon, plus he's got Rage and Counterattack so if he charges he's got 6 attacks and 5 if lelith charges.

Even with only 3 attacks, using Abby's claw, you're looking 3 attacks hitting on 4's resulting in 1.5 hits, S8 rerolling failed wounds is 1.46 wounds, lelith saves 2/3 and we end up at .48 wounds each round that inflict ID.

I believe lelith strikes at normal S3? If so, then we're looking at 7 attacks, 4.66 hits, .77 wounds and Abby's 4+ invul drops that to .388

So even with only 3 attacks (when he should have at least 4 assuming I'm not missing anything) he's not only inflicting more wounds but also inflicting ID.


Am I missing something? It's possible, but I don't think so

Abbadon's hitting on a 5+ and Lelith on a 3+, WS 7 v. WS 9,

Sorry, but the weapon skill table is completely gimp and the value of a point of weapon skill is lower than a point of initiative and nearly infinitely worse than a point of strength. You need to have half the opponent's weapon skill to hit on 5+, this means that you need to be a regular Space Marine or worse to hit Lelith on 5+, all the HQ Space Marines near enough gets away with it and only struggles against certain murder-death-kill daemons.

Fluffwise i guess abbadon wins.

SM aren't the whole universe, no matter what GW PR says.

There are a lot of SC and HQ types out there with 4 or less WS.

That said, Lelith isn't really an HQ-killer for me. She's a small-unit killer. I've seen her chew through units like Meganobz, , Incubi and non-Cheesesheild termies etc with ease.

She's ok in a challenge, but hardly godly. If the opponent is T 3 she's a deal better, especially if they aren't packing an instakill weapon. She's very deadly against Eldar and DE characters, for example.

The Swarmlord would be a fairer fight than Lelith for roughly equal points.

Abaddon gets charge

Swarmlord hits on 3s, for 2.66 hits, and wounds 1.77. Abaddon saves 0.44 so takes 1.33, equvilent to 1 wounds.

Assuming he uses his Sword, he gets 11 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 unsaved.

They strike at Int 6 each so next turn, due to loss of Rage bonus, odds go slightly in Swarmlord's favour. It was a straight draw in Abaddon's turn.

Swarmlord now gives himself PE with Swarm Leader so ends up hitting with 3.55 attacks, wounding with 3.16, Abaddon saves 0.79, takes 2.370 wounds, so has 1 left, Swarmlord has 3

Abbaddon has now 8 attacks, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds and Swarmlord suffers 0.66 (round to 1) wounds so now they ar1 wound:2 in the Swarmlord's favour

Swarmlord kills Abaddon next round.



All based on average rolls and that Abaddon woud use his Sword. Personally I would as the extra attacks are vital. Also note that if the Swarmlord gets the Charge the odds tip in his favour as Abbaddon has less attacks, and will have Paroxysm cast, so will only hit on 5+ and may or may not have lost a wound, depending on HoW and Leech Essence being successful. Also there is the possibility of rolling 1s for the Daemon weapon which factor into the Swarmlord's favour, however there is the possibililty of rolling 2s or 3s which also help SL or 5+ which aid Abaddon. I didn't factor in overwatch as Abaddon has so slim a chance of wounding the SL with it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
SM aren't the whole universe, no matter what GW PR says.

There are a lot of SC and HQ types out there with 4 or less WS.

That said, Lelith isn't really an HQ-killer for me. She's a small-unit killer. I've seen her chew through units like Meganobz, , Incubi and non-Cheesesheild termies etc with ease.

She's ok in a challenge, but hardly godly. If the opponent is T 3 she's a deal better, especially if they aren't packing an instakill weapon. She's very deadly against Eldar and DE characters, for example.

Well I suppose the fluff supports that. She fights DE and by extension Eldar, in arenas 24/7 so she woulf excell.

NHce one Deadshot Can you mathammer this for me:
Swarmy on the charge
Abby on the charge
Neither on the charge
Both on the charge
Swarmy casts no powers

Where Lelith is best is at engaging mid-range characters (like Chaplains, Librarians, etc.) and engaging elite infantry units. Lelith will absolutely ruin a unit like Sanguinary Guard and the like all on her own. But truly fighty big things she has an issue with, primarily due to her S3 T3.

Most every named Chaos SC will likely defeat Lelith in CC. They're just too strong. Abaddon/Kharn/Typhus/Ahriman/Fabius due to having greater staying power and only needing to inflict one wound to ID Lelith before she can eat through all 3/4 of theirs, typically killing her by the end of the 2nd round.

The only one that's close is Lucius because he's can't ID her, though he's still getting a higher average wound rate in with getting 9 attacks as a result of Lelith's WS9 on top of rerolling failed wounds and inflicting hits back when he makes an invul save, so for every 2 he's taking he's inflicting 3 back, though Lelith gets to strike first which roughly balances it out.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The only one that's close is Lucius because he's can't ID her, though he's still getting a higher average wound rate in with getting 9 attacks as a result of Lelith's WS9 on top of rerolling failed wounds and inflicting hits back when he makes an invul save, so for every 2 he's taking he's inflicting 3 back, though Lelith gets to strike first which roughly balances it out.

I don't think you did the math quite right. Lelith hits on 3s, wounds on 5s, and Lucius saves on 5s; each attack inflicts 0.07 wounds. She's got 6 or 7 attacks depending on the charge (remember, Lucius removes one), for a total of 0.43 or 0.50 wounds per phase. Lucius returns with 12 attacks (13 on the charge), hitting .5, wounding .88, and are saved .66, giving him 1.7 or 1.88 wounds per phase. So he inflicts 3 times as many wounds, not 50% more.

I did do my math wrong, however it actually should be a bit more in Lelith's favor if anything.

Lucius doesn't get quite that many attacks, he's not adding their WS to his attacks, he's replacing his attacks with their WS, and doesn't have a 2nd CCW (the lash isn't counted as one in his rules).

Also, each of Leliths attacks should be averaging 0.148 wounds (2/3x1/3x2/3=.148148). Assuming 7 attacks (4 base, 1 for two CCW's and 2 for higher WS) that nets an average of 1.037 wounds.

While each of Lucius' attacks is generating an average of .1466 wounds (HIT1/2xWOUND(2/3+(2/3x1/3))xBEATSV1/3), he gets 8 attacks (9 for replacing A with WS of opponent, -1 for Lelith's shardnet), gives us 1.173 average wounds. If however we factor in Armor of Shrieking Souls, that adds an additional .115 wounds, giving us a total expected average wound output of 1.29.

So we end up with a 1:1.33 ratio here, so for roughly every 3 wounds Lelith does, Lucius does 4. Lelith gets to strike first but by the end of the 2nd round of combat Lucius has only suffered 2 wounds on average while Lelith suffers an average of 2.66, meaning that about two thirds of the time Lucius will have killed her off by now and about a third of the time she lives, if she does she'll likely kill lucius the next round before he can swing.

Thus they're actually a little more equal than my original estimate, with an important but not overwhelming advantage to Lucius.

 Ratius wrote:
NHce one Deadshot Can you mathammer this for me:
Swarmy on the charge
Abby on the charge
Neither on the charge
Both on the charge
Swarmy casts no powers

Swarmy on Charge

Swarmlord gives PE (all rerolls included it hits/wounds/Abaddon's saves) to self, casts Paroxysm (its his turn, why not). Overwatch grants les than 0.1 wounds. Abaddon counterattacks.

Swarmlord gets 5 attacks, 3.88 wounds, 2.82 wounds, 2.12 of which are unsaved. Abaddon has 2 wounds left.

Abaddon has 4 attacks, 2 CCWs, Counter Attack and his Daemon Wrapon, average rolling 4. He has 10 attacks but Paroxysm reduces him to WS1 so he only gets 3.33 hits, 1.11 wounds, 0.55 unsaved.

Swarmlord 4/ Abaddon 2

Swarmlord hits with 2.66 attacks now PE is gone. 1.77 wounds, 1.33 unsaved.

Abaddon has 9 attacks now. Paroxysm still in effect. Hits 3, wounds 1, 0.5 saved/unsaved. I'll assume it was unsaved.

Swarmlord 3:Abaddon 1


Swarmlord now regrants PE to himself. 3.11 hits 2.42 wounds, 1.81 unsaved. Abaddon dead.

Abaddon still strikes back with 9 attacks. 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 unsaved b

Score
Swarmlord 2 wounds
Abaddon dead.



Niether gets charge and Swarmlord uses no powers

Seeing as it is impossible to determine who's turn it is , the Swarmlord does not get use of powers, including Swarmleader, and Abaddon gets no Overwatch or Counter attack.

Swarmlord hits 2.66, wounds 1.77, 1.33 unsaved.

Abaddon hits 4.5 times, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 unsaved.

So if niether get the charge, Overwatch, Paroxysm and Swarmleader and Counter attack were removed, each turn they would swing away at each other removing 1 wound. This neans that the Swarmlord wilould be left standing with 1 wound while Abaddon dies.

I do not know what "both getting the Charge" means.

Umm why is lucius getting 12 attacks? I like the guy but he doesn't get 12 attacks vs WS9. He gets 9 attacks with shred. You do not add the opponents WS to your own attacks. Their WS is simply your attack number. I give it to lelith against lucius honestly. Lucius is probably one of the weakest chaos characters. A challenge based character who struggles in challenges because he has no AP2 and is himself only 3+ save.

Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.44 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

 Deadshot wrote:
Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.22 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

How does one calculate lucius armour of souls than?

It grants an extra Str 4, AP2 hit when he makes a save, IIRC. But he didn't make any saves so it doesn't apply.

If he makes an Inv save it also works, from memory. So it does factor in

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If he makes an Inv save it also works, from memory. So it does factor in

Near positive that you're correct. Any save by the armor (armor save or invuln), triggers the hit.

However, as he didn't make any saves by my math, the effect was not triggered.

He makes saves on a 5+ chances are he will make 1 of his 3 saves. You can't just say that because in 1 round of combat chances are he fails his save that he will fail it every time. Lilith will need 4 rounds of combat on average to kill lucius. Lucius will need 3 rounds on average to kill Lilith.

Honestly though I thought it was generally agreed that Lilith was one of the poorer choices in the book and that taking pretty much any other HQ was better. Including a "make your own" Succubi or whatever the witch leaders were called.

 Deadshot wrote:
Lucius vs Lelith with no charges/overwatch

Lelith Strikes first with 4 attacks (taking into account Lash and 2 CCWs), hitting on 4s so 2 hits, 0.66 Wounds, of which 0.44 are saved, so 1 wound on Lucius.

Lucius has 9 attacks, reduces to 8 for the Shardnet. 4 hits, total of 3.55 wounds after rerolls. 1.185 unsaved for total of 1.

So each turn they take 1 wound off each other, but as Lelith strikes first she would win.

I thought the order of operations for stats modification was multiplication, addition, and then set value. I don't have the Chaos Codex so I might be wrong, but if Lucius's ability sets his number of attacks to the opponents weapon skill, wouldn't that apply AFTER Lelith's Shardnet?

Even if Lilith did win Abby would probably just be deus ex machina-ed back to safety by his plot armour, like it did with Eldrad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nope, the chart for close combat hasnt changed in decades.

That chart hasn't even existed for decades. It's only been 14 years, so one decade and change.

Although you are correct that it has never changed.

Thought it came in in 2nd ediotion, so prior to 1998?

2nd edition close combat was wildly different.

Lelith is prettier.

A far better question would be who (or what) can possibly kill Abaddon the Despoiler in a one on one challenge?

A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

The Sanguinor.
Or Kaldor Draigo.

As some haters will say: Matt Ward.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
The Sanguinor.
Or Kaldor Draigo.

As some haters will say: Matt Ward.

Sanguinor can't do it, he only has a Power Sword. He can't even get through Abaddon's armor save - and neither can Draigo, because he has a force sword, which are only AP3.

TedNugent wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A GK brotherhood Champion, although he has to die for it to happen.

Even then Abaddon still gets a greater than 50-50 chance to live!

Is there anyone who can kill Abaddon in a challenge -without- dying?

No, its around a 40% chance for the HS to fail. You can't DTW it as it doesn't target Abaddon.

Ld10 psychic test and 3+ to hit = (33/36)(2/3)=61.11% chance of Abaddon getting toasted.