This month we see the official release of the Lizard-Ogre models sculpted by Robert Lippman.  Robert has created two models to fill the ranks of lizardmen players everywhere.  The first model is a lizard-ogre (which is approx 60mm high) with his ax in hand.  The second model is armed with a aztec style club.  Both models are cast in high-quality resin and are for sale at $13.00 per model available here and here.

 

This month also see the release of a shoulder mounted missile rack that is designed to fit seamlessly on the shoulders of Games Workshops Space Marine Terminator models.  No longer will players have to scavenge or overpay on ebay and bits websites for the destructive potential that is needed in a pinch.  The metal components were sculpted by Tomas Fiertek and painted by Jose Veiga.  Each kit is $4.50 available here is cast in pewter and comes with a seperate targeting array.

 

Also available for players whose favorite armies happen to be grey knights are some flexible ammo belts for storm bolter use as well as some segmented heraldric power armor pads.

The flexible ammo belts come in two sizes, large and small.  The large size belts are designed to fit on the heavy weapon choices for grey knight players and the small belts are designed to fit on smaller weapons such as storm bolters.  Each set is $2.50 each.  The large set, available here are in quantities of 3.  The smaller size set which comes in quantities of 4 is available here.

The Heraldric Knight shoulder pads come in sets of 5, each pad segmented in a different way.  Each set is $5.00 and is available here.

I think the cyclone launcher looks very "gummy" with crooked lines and the back just looks weird.

The one my buddy did for CHS looked better, here's a few pics he sent me.

I wonder why they didn't use that one since the idea of a launcher that looked like that was concepted by him, not CHS.

The lizard ogre is okay.

The cyclonic launcher is a miss. You have been at this a long time now, you can do better than that. Unless it's the angle/paint job which is making it look fugly.

Shoulder pads 3 and 5 are okay the others seem redundant.


The ammo belts I'll give you!

Photos of the flexible ammo belts on miniatures? It'd be helpful to see them on, say, the Grey Knights mentioned. They look promising!

Q, if these are from new molds, what's up with the pudgy look if the masters are plasticard?

The ones we had originally done were lost in transit somewhere.. its horrible when it happens and it does unfortunately.

Ive seen these on models and they are awesome, ymmv.

 xcasex wrote:
Q, if these are from new molds, what's up with the pudgy look if the masters are plasticard?

The master I posted was not used. CHS basically took the idea and gave it to another sculptor, I guess. IMHO the other sculptor did a sub-par job.

The lizard ogres are charmingly retro. Reasonable sculpts that would fit in nicely with old-school Lizardmen armies.

While the cyclone is a cool design, the sculpt is amazingly messy. As an amateur conversion it would be passable, but not as a commercial release given the sort of standard we're seeing from other companies now.

The shoulder pads are a nice idea, competently done. Although I'm a little puzzled by the choice of paintjob to show them off... Why would you take pads designed specifically for split heraldic paint-schemes and paint them all one colour???

I would have gone with something more like this:

Nice stuff. Is their any shots of the bare products? Hard to see the details as the paint jobs abit heavy

 insaniak wrote:
While the cyclone is a cool design, the sculpt is amazingly messy. As an amateur conversion it would be passable, but not as a commercial release given the sort of standard we're seeing from other companies now

Just to be clear since I don't want to insult a friend, the originals I posted were not the ones used. For whatever reason CHS gave the idea to another sculptor which is the ones they are selling.

You don't have to keep pointing that out every time someone comments on the cyclone.

Not a fan of the launcher. Just seems like a concept that was flawed from the beginning. Maybe the idea of a cathedral style rocket launcher just seems silly to me.

The paint jobs aren't helping the 40k products. Instead of overly garish painted pieces, just show some inked bare ones. Easier to see the quality of the sculpt. As of now, that cyclone looks really sketchy- very rough on the lines.

The not-kroxigors are pretty good. The heads are very well done. The belly scales are a little odd and I would have liked to see the micro scales on the head extended to the body as otherwise it has the rubber suit effect. Still, much better than the GW sculpts

IB4 Swastika Shoulder pads.

The ammo belts are cool. Nothing else here tickles my fancy, but then not much 40k stuff does. I do like the scales on the back of the lizards though.

 d-usa wrote:
Not a fan of the launcher. Just seems like a concept that was flawed from the beginning. Maybe the idea of a cathedral style rocket launcher just seems silly to me.

This is my issue with it as well, though I do like the Lizard Ogre

 jmurph wrote:
The paint jobs aren't helping the 40k products. Instead of overly garish painted pieces, just show some inked bare ones. Easier to see the quality of the sculpt.

CHs paint jobs have never done anything but enhance their crooked, blobby sculpts.

prplehippo wrote:
I think the cyclone launcher looks very "gummy" with crooked lines and the back just looks weird.

The one my buddy did for CHS looked better, here's a few pics he sent me.

I wonder why they didn't use that one since the idea of a launcher that looked like that was concepted by him, not CHS.

I actually prefer the one CHS showed.
As for the lines being bad... it looks like a bad photoshop job to me, not casting or sculpting problems.
Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before and will probably happen again. : )


Eric

I usually am not impressed by your product. However, i love the cyclone

 MagickalMemories wrote:

prplehippo wrote:

I actually prefer the one CHS showed.
As for the lines being bad... it looks like a bad photoshop job to me, not casting or sculpting problems.
Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before and will probably happen again. : )


Eric

You prefer the one with unevenly spaced missiles (with none of the missiles being quite the same size), and wonky, uneven, vents?
The only spot I can see that could be excused by CHs consistently ham fisted use of photoshop is the front right missile arch, and as it's consistently wonky in just the same spot in the front and back photos, I'm going to stick with weak sculpting/ quality control.

Edit: Pardon me, just getting my foot out of my mouth...

I think you need to check usernames there d-usa.

 plastictrees wrote:
I think you need to check usernames there d-usa.

Yup my apologies

I was switching between threads and got my posts mixed up...

Love the lizardmen!!!!

The missile ...um...need a better picture I think.

The belts are neat idea.

All of them however, need something to reference the actual scale...

Thanks for posting

Cyclone don't look too bad, I think it's the nmm paintjob and stark highlights that messing with it.

Why don't you call that lizard a Kroxigor?

 Malika2 wrote:
Why don't you call that lizard a Kroxigor?

That would be a trademark violation which is illegal. I think he can say that it's definitely NOT a kroxigor. Amazing what word associations in the brain do.

Clearly it is NOT a kroxigor. So please children, don't call this NOT-A-KROXIGOR model a kroxigor, because it isn't.

The not-Kroxigor looks like a rubber children's toy.

Unless for some reason the photo is distorted, the not-cyclone launcher is clearly sub-standard. Its design also seems to be at odds with CH's claims that their designs are only based on generic/historical images.

And the not-Marine shoulder pads are redundant.

Is there really a demand for this stuff?

What about the pads make them 'redundant'? They're interesting subtle designs, and as insaniak showed above, can be done nicely if you vary the paint styles.

Not a fan of the lizard ogres, although the one with the club does look like he's trying to get a home run.

The missile launcher? Yikes! Has the sculptor ever seen a straight line? Ick!

those kroxigors have retro-appeal. it's more of a selling point to the reaper-RPG-retro-mini's crowd though, not sure if that will do CHS much good...

The Kroxigors are interesting, might pick up a few if I can't find some good deals on ebay.

I think the Lizard Ogre looks good.

 d-usa wrote:
Not a fan of the launcher. Just seems like a concept that was flawed from the beginning. Maybe the idea of a cathedral style rocket launcher just seems silly to me.

The ultimate expression of the Imperium would a mobile neo-gothic cathedral, covered in skulls, with a giant pipe organ as a rocket launcher crewed by a space marine terminator wearing a throne of skulls as a hat.

If that doesn't set your juices going then 40K is not the game for you. Or maybe stick with Tau.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The ultimate expression of the Imperium would a mobile neo-gothic cathedral, covered in skulls, with a giant pipe organ as a rocket launcher crewed by a space marine terminator wearing a throne of skulls as a hat.

Or perhaps a baroque Gothic trench-line covered in skulls and the slain bodies of hundreds of soldiers.

On second thought that sounds stupid. They'd never do that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What about the pads make them 'redundant'? They're interesting subtle designs, and as insaniak showed above, can be done nicely if you vary the paint styles

I agree with the dude here. You could use different "splits" for different ranks of knighthood in a chapter, or even to denote specializations. And even if they're redundant, that's only a problem for the manufacturer who has to keep an extra master and castings, not for us, the savvy consumer.

"Professional" work, as always. With a paint job to match the wonky, blobby, uneven sculpts.

Here's some of my issues with the cyclone.

First and foremost, the sculpt looks very, very poor, and curved or bowed in areas it looks like it should not be.

Second, while I applaud the cathedral launcher, the tiny asymmetrical launcher on the right does nothing to add to the sculpt, and only becomes a detraction IMO. Had there been a matching one on the left, it would have been a non-issue, but these are my ideas on the sculpt as it stands.

Third, be it paint job or actual model, the model itself simply looks uneven. It's impossible to tell what the original intention was the missles -do- look unfinished and simply "slapped in place."

Marrak, I believe the " tiny asymmetrical launcher on the right " you are talking about is actually " a seperate targeting array".

Not that that changes the actual wonkiness of the thing, but....

And is that Lizard-Ogre with club a southpaw or what?

Any chance to get your stuff stocked at a U.K/Europe retailer?

The paint job isn't doing much for the Missile Launcher.
Could we at least see an unpainted and inked product perhaps?

I'd spend 4.50 once to see the actual not Cyclone. The paint job absolutely sucks and could be what is making the unit look bad. I like the other cyclone in white....much cleaner and straight lines. Also the targeting array on the one side makes it look lop sided.

Would like to see CHS's cyclone and the belts were mounted on models. Also baseball lizard looks cool but needs a baseball cap.

If you think the targetting array makes it look lop sided, why don't you .... leave it off maybe?

It is sepperate after all. And yes, the more I see it, the better it looks to me. I'd still like to see it properly painted and on a model before I make a final judgement but it increaseingly seems to me that the 'wonkiness' to it is an illusion due to it curving down at the back and possibly curving in at the same time.

Still not sure I like it, but willing to keep an open mind until I see it on a model.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
... but it increaseingly seems to me that the 'wonkiness' to it is an illusion due to it curving down at the back and possibly curving in at the same time.

That, and the missiles being unevenly spaced and sticking out at different angles, the tops of the two side arches being straight while the centre one is arched and wobbly, and the gold trim around the edge being uneven.

I think the missile launcher might be ok with a SoB army, somewhere. I'll have to see if I can get my sister to pick up some for hers.

Rocket launcher is awful. I mean, if that master sculpt was sent to them, why didn't they use it? It looks so much better.

Flexible belts are cool.

And I do like the shoulder pads.

I like the pads the most, might get some for my homebrew chapter. the missile lancher is not to bad

 SickSix wrote:
Rocket launcher is awful. I mean, if that master sculpt was sent to them, why didn't they use it? It looks so much better.

Because...

 Chapterhouse wrote:
The ones we had originally done were lost in transit somewhere.. its horrible when it happens and it does unfortunately.

Having said that, it seems like it would have made more sense to just get the same guy to make up another one.

These new items just don't look like they're professional quality.

So Chapterhouse have now even leeched GW's release ethic? If a poor final model is made, just release it and hope suckers buy it?

Loki just won the thread.

 -Loki- wrote:
So Chapterhouse have now even leeched GW's release ethic? If a poor final model is made, just release it and hope suckers buy it?

To be fair, it very well could be some bad photoshopping on top of the poor paint job that is creating flaws that may not exist.

As requested earlier, pics of the bare piece with a black ink wash are needed to pass legitimate judgement on the actual sculpt.

plastictrees wrote:You prefer the one with unevenly spaced missiles (with none of the missiles being quite the same size), and wonky, uneven, vents?
The only spot I can see that could be excused by CHs consistently ham fisted use of photoshop is the front right missile arch, and as it's consistently wonky in just the same spot in the front and back photos, I'm going to stick with weak sculpting/ quality control.

Looking closely at it, I'm not so sure the missiles truly are unevenly spaced. I believe the unfortunately subpar paint job might be causeing that. Now, I didn't get a tape measure out and hold it against my monitor, but the spaces between the missiles look the same when eyeballing them and ignoring any false dimensional perceptions from the paint job.

I can't help but wonder why the vitriol, though. The whole "consistently ham fisted" comment was a bit harsh. I mean, it would be different if you bought one and it was not as nice as it looked due to misrepresentation or something but, for someone who's got no more invested in them than "I saw them on the internet," it's pretty rough.

Marrak wrote:Here's some of my issues with the cyclone.

First and foremost, the sculpt looks very, very poor, and curved or bowed in areas it looks like it should not be.

I'm not seeing this. Any chance you could point that out with more specificity?

Marrak wrote:Third, be it paint job or actual model, the model itself simply looks uneven. It's impossible to tell what the original intention was the missles -do- look unfinished and simply "slapped in place."

I think this is a very valid comment. While I think it's the paint job causing it... it shouldn't. I mean, really, this paint job would be quite nice for the game table, it's just not what I'd want to represent an item I'm trying to sell.

Conrad Turner wrote:If you think the targetting array makes it look lop sided, why don't you .... leave it off maybe?

It is sepperate after all. And yes, the more I see it, the better it looks to me. I'd still like to see it properly painted and on a model before I make a final judgement but it increaseingly seems to me that the 'wonkiness' to it is an illusion due to it curving down at the back and possibly curving in at the same time.

Still not sure I like it, but willing to keep an open mind until I see it on a model.

Agreed all around.
I mean, sure, the targeting array makes it lop sided... I seem to recall Termies having a bult in targeting array for THEIR missile launcher that is only on one side, too. I haven't heard any vitriol about THAT.
I mean, like you said, it can just be left off.

Eric

 Aerethan wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So Chapterhouse have now even leeched GW's release ethic? If a poor final model is made, just release it and hope suckers buy it?

To be fair, it very well could be some bad photoshopping on top of the poor paint job that is creating flaws that may not exist.

As requested earlier, pics of the bare piece with a black ink wash are needed to pass legitimate judgement on the actual sculpt.

My eyes are bad, but not that bad. I'm not talking about the top of the center launcher. I can see clear as day misaligned missiles (on the right side pod, the bottom two missiles are closer together then the middile and top missile), and thanks to the quick drybrush on the vents, which will only pick up edges, you can see vents that aren't lining up properly.

Knowing it's a bad product and releasing it anyway is the sort of gak people scream at GW for. Chapterhouse put out a turd, and people polish it as much as possible.

I'm by no means trying to polish it. It's not a product that appeals to me at all, and I have no particular allegiance towards CHS other than in their law suit.

I'm more stating that perhaps a naked model will more clearly show if the final product IS better than what we've been shown here.

Perhaps that one was a super terrible cast and others are better.

If the master looks as shoddy as the pics for the product, then yes it is very much a crap sculpt.

 paulson games wrote:
I think the Lizard Ogre looks good.

I like them as well. Will probably pick up one or both for use with Ganesha Games Song of Blades and Heroes, which has become the Saturday night go to game for me and my wife.

I really want to like the cyclone, because I think it's a cool deign and it would look great on my deathwing, so I hope it's just a bad picture/paint job thats making it look... off.

Hey guys, I actually have one of the new CHS launchers and it really is better than you think! I've obtained a fair bit of product from them over the last couple of years and never had any issues so far I'm not sure why some pics look wonky but the product is not and fits like a glove on my termie! here's a look. after I washed it with some ink so you can see it

Got a shot of it from the rear.

Gimme a minute i'll see what I can do :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not showing up on my photobucket yet so I'll post the rear shot up tomorrow morning if that's cool?

It looks pretty good unpainted. It's also a lot smaller than I originally assumed from the product picture.

So I take it the target-sensor is a separate piece?

Ok, that actually looks pretty good, and better than the ones I made from Typhoon launchers. I may have to pick up six.

 d-usa wrote:
So I take it the target-sensor is a separate piece?

Since they said as much in the first post...

Each kit is $4.50 available here is cast in pewter and comes with a seperate targeting array.

Nicely confirms that, yes, the missiles are unevenly spaced, and the 3 rows aren't parallel. The arches are also really quite wonky.

I want to like it, because the design is awesome... but it needs to be a neater sculpt.

 d-usa wrote:
So I take it the target-sensor is a separate piece?

Yes it is.. you dont have to mount it as shown, I am sure there are a number of spots and uses for it.

 insaniak wrote:

Nicely confirms that, yes, the missiles are unevenly spaced, and the 3 rows aren't parallel. The arches are also really quite wonky.

I want to like it, because the design is awesome... but it needs to be a neater sculpt.

Maybe I don't see what you're seeing?
I agree that not all 3 rows are parallel. As the center section's taller than the left & right, I don't think I'd want them to be.
Taking just the left and right sides into account, they look to be spaced the same. I can't say it's exactly identical from the pics, but it looks darn close. You just have to keep in mind that one side (in the pic) is lower than the other.

I don't see any problem with the arches, either. Considering the angle of the pic, just because the left & right arches look different, that doesn't mean they are.

Eric

...Why does pad number 2 on the heraldric knights set look like swastika in the center?

Because the swastika is a very basic geometric shape that happens quite a bit if you are doing puzzle shapes?

The reason the original rocket launcher didnt make it to casting is...as already said in this thread *sigh*, that the post office screwed up the package and f....g lost it. Gone, poof, bang, it vanished with no tracing possible.

So...I made a similar one but as I didnt like the width of the original one I tried to fit it on top of a mini instead of both side arches going out over the shoulders, just my preference I guess.
Why it looks awkward I dont know, casting/molding some times bend things a bit or maybe it the paint job, dunno.
Here is a WIP of how the green looked while I was working on it:









As for the pads, well, this is how I paint them myself:



To each their own...personally I use them on my GK minis (although I dotn use that colour scheme).



As for the ammo bands I also use them on my GK minis:






I better take some more pics showing them with the pads on.

Actually, Pyriel, the image of the Termie you posted makes me think there really is a difference in the left and right missile racks. As I'm looking at the image, the missine on the roght bottom looks farther down than the one on the left bottom.

For the record, I'm comparing their respective distances to the center missile above them to be sure, since the angle of the pic, combined with the model's pose, can affect how close it looks to the bottom of the launcher.

Eric

The unpainted ML shots look much better. It seems a solid piece, though I do not personally care for the design.

Yeah I dont care for the design but it is my firm opinion it's an OK piece.

but as with all CHS threads, haters gonna hate. (just like they did with the TS kit, which I received a few days ago and couldnt find any faults with it)

 xcasex wrote:
but as with all CHS threads, haters gonna hate. (just like they did with the TS kit, which I received a few days ago and couldnt find any faults with it)

Yeah... or we could not just dismiss people's opinions as mindless 'hating'... I don't hate Chapterhouse. I don't hate this piece. I do see technical problems with it that would discourage me from buying it. That's not 'hating'... it's explaining why I don't like it.

Let's just try to keep a little perspective, hmm?

 insaniak wrote:

 xcasex wrote:
but as with all CHS threads, haters gonna hate. (just like they did with the TS kit, which I received a few days ago and couldnt find any faults with it)

Yeah... or we could not just dismiss people's opinions as mindless 'hating'... I don't hate Chapterhouse. I don't hate this piece. I do see technical problems with it that would discourage me from buying it. That's not 'hating'... it's explaining why I don't like it.

Let's just try to keep a little perspective, hmm?

To be fair, there ARE those who will say they hate it purely because it's CHS. That may not apply to you, but there are those people here. The same goes for GW, PP, Reaper. There's always naysayers.

Now it's one thing to not like the piece for whatever reason in regards to the piece, and you are completely justified in your opinion.

Actually, Pyriel, the image of the Termie you posted makes me think there really is a difference in the left and right missile racks. As I'm looking at the image, the missine on the roght bottom looks farther down than the one on the left bottom.

You are probable right. Im not a robot and there is bound to be slight errors in symmetry in a piece like this. However, it was so small that it didnt bother me and Im picky like hell when it comes to miniatures

Yeah... or we could not just dismiss people's opinions as mindless 'hating'... I don't hate Chapterhouse. I don't hate this piece. I do see technical problems with it that would discourage me from buying it. That's not 'hating'... it's explaining why I don't like it.

Critique is welcome, even really negative one and you know we try to make alterations based on peoples input...but he has a point. Useless trolls like plastictrees that have nothing to add then a load of hating bulls..i is something I personally find pathetic.

 Aerethan wrote:
To be fair, there ARE those who will say they hate it purely because it's CHS.

And if there had been any evidence of that in this thread, the comment might have been somewhat justified. Instead, someone has seen people being critical of a piece that he personally thinks is fine, and has decided to just put it down to people 'hating' rather than accepting that some people might be seeing something in it that he doesn't.

It would be awesome if we could all just leave people's motives off the table and concentrate on the miniatures. That's what we're here for, after all.

Those Kroxigors and their weapons look like they're from two different cartoons photoshopped poorly together.

The missile launcher looks like it used to be for a model, but has been partially melted.

I like the 'lizard-ogre' sculpts, great artistic work. But seriously, stop lying. They are Kroxigors. If you have to change the name so you don't get sued for copying another companies ideas, then maybe you shouldn't copy other companies' ideas. GW makes kroxigor models, stop trying to steal from them.
Bits and upgrade kits are ok because you still have to have the original model, but copying a full model is crossing the line.

The cyclone missile launcher was a good idea, but it seems something went wrong in the casting or painting. Maybe CHS should fix it before they try to market them.
Also, the price is good compared to buying the gw bits from ebay, but I have seen other CML-alternative bits at much better price $0.77.

 Pyriel- wrote:
As for the ammo bands I also use them on my GK minis:

I am no fan of the "jumbo sized" ammo-clips the plastic GK Marines have on their Storm Bolters, so this ammo belts are quite a good thing for me.

My only concern is that they're unlikely to be very flexible in how far they stretch or bend. This pictures above look great, but how limiting were they when it came to posing the models?

To be clear (and less subtle than Insaniak) - this is a thread to discuss this particular announced set of miniatures & bits. This is NOT a thread to discuss other posters, or their possible motivations for posting what they do. Stick to the topic, please.

You don't have to like the miniatures; all opinions are welcome, if expressed within the constraints of our posting rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My only concern is that they're unlikely to be very flexible in how far they stretch or bend. This pictures above look great, but how limiting were they when it came to posing the models?

...it's resin. keep a small container of hot water on your desk while modeling them on, if they were a little longer, that way you could probably have used them as an impromptu bow-tie

I am no fan of the "jumbo sized" ammo-clips the plastic GK Marines have on their Storm Bolters, so this ammo belts are quite a good thing for me.

My only concern is that they're unlikely to be very flexible in how far they stretch or bend. This pictures above look great, but how limiting were they when it came to posing the models?

They are made in metal because that allows for flexing them.

Currently I have about 20 gk minis in various poses besides the standard out of the box poses with the bands on.
There are several types of bands made so that one can find a piece that fits with pretty much any pose. It takes some bending and clipping of the ends to make the length accurate.
Took me on average 10 minutes per mini to find a proper close fitting band and adjust it by bending and using a clipper to shorten it to enable a fit.

Most trouble I had on a custom positioned mini where I had to file of a portion of the band to make room for a knee, took me some 30 minutes of tinkering before I got it right.

Its a certain convertion and fitting required but imo thats part of why I like this hobby and I think my minis look better for it.

...ah, metal. that'll work, too

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
I like the 'lizard-ogre' sculpts, great artistic work. But seriously, stop lying. They are Kroxigors. If you have to change the name so you don't get sued for copying another companies ideas, then maybe you shouldn't copy other companies' ideas. GW makes kroxigor models, stop trying to steal from them.
Bits and upgrade kits are ok because you still have to have the original model, but copying a full model is crossing the line.

The cyclone missile launcher was a good idea, but it seems something went wrong in the casting or painting. Maybe CHS should fix it before they try to market them.
Also, the price is good compared to buying the gw bits from ebay, but I have seen other CML-alternative bits at much better price $0.77.

The ignorance, it overwhelms.

You think GW creates all of their ideas from scratch? Perhaps their business model, but certainly not their products. GW doesn't own the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons, nor did they create such an idea.

By your standards of theft, anyone who makes a model of anything is stealing. Did GW "steal" the idea for tanks?

Ideas are not IP. Expressions of ideas are. These expressions of the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons is like 0% similar to GWs expression of the same idea.

So let's not drag this into IP debate. No one stole anything here. Either like the models or don't.

I dont have much of a view on the missile launcher bit but I think this thread is a pretty decent example of why making minis isnt easy business, pretty broad range of views from hate to love. One of the things I love about the mini world i

 Aerethan wrote:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
I like the 'lizard-ogre' sculpts, great artistic work. But seriously, stop lying. They are Kroxigors. If you have to change the name so you don't get sued for copying another companies ideas, then maybe you shouldn't copy other companies' ideas. GW makes kroxigor models, stop trying to steal from them.
Bits and upgrade kits are ok because you still have to have the original model, but copying a full model is crossing the line.

The cyclone missile launcher was a good idea, but it seems something went wrong in the casting or painting. Maybe CHS should fix it before they try to market them.
Also, the price is good compared to buying the gw bits from ebay, but I have seen other CML-alternative bits at much better price $0.77.

The ignorance, it overwhelms.

You think GW creates all of their ideas from scratch? Perhaps their business model, but certainly not their products. GW doesn't own the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons, nor did they create such an idea.

By your standards of theft, anyone who makes a model of anything is stealing. Did GW "steal" the idea for tanks?

Ideas are not IP. Expressions of ideas are. These expressions of the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons is like 0% similar to GWs expression of the same idea.

So let's not drag this into IP debate. No one stole anything here. Either like the models or don't.

I am not as ignorant as you think.
I agree that the idea of a giant lizard on 2 legs with a 2 handed weapon is not an random common idea that can not be stolen. I just have an issue with these, as they were designed, and sculpted as replacement Kroxigors. They have been marketed with the express purpose of replacing GW models.

and as I said before, I do like the models. The sculptor is skilled way beyond me.

Creating a replacement product is not stealing. They are not called Kroxigors because the trademark on that name for miniatures is being used and presumably registered in the relevant market.

I don't see anywhere on CHS's site that markets it as a replacement product. The lines you may draw are your own. CHS has not represented it as such.

Moronic Nonsense wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
I like the 'lizard-ogre' sculpts, great artistic work. But seriously, stop lying. They are Kroxigors. If you have to change the name so you don't get sued for copying another companies ideas, then maybe you shouldn't copy other companies' ideas. GW makes kroxigor models, stop trying to steal from them.
Bits and upgrade kits are ok because you still have to have the original model, but copying a full model is crossing the line.

The cyclone missile launcher was a good idea, but it seems something went wrong in the casting or painting. Maybe CHS should fix it before they try to market them.
Also, the price is good compared to buying the gw bits from ebay, but I have seen other CML-alternative bits at much better price $0.77.

The ignorance, it overwhelms.

You think GW creates all of their ideas from scratch? Perhaps their business model, but certainly not their products. GW doesn't own the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons, nor did they create such an idea.

By your standards of theft, anyone who makes a model of anything is stealing. Did GW "steal" the idea for tanks?

Ideas are not IP. Expressions of ideas are. These expressions of the IDEA of giant lizards on 2 legs with 2handed weapons is like 0% similar to GWs expression of the same idea.

So let's not drag this into IP debate. No one stole anything here. Either like the models or don't.

I am not as ignorant as you think.
I agree that the idea of a giant lizard on 2 legs with a 2 handed weapon is not an random common idea that can not be stolen. I just have an issue with these, as they were designed, and sculpted as replacement Kroxigors. They have been marketed with the express purpose of replacing GW models.

and as I said before, I do like the models. The sculptor is skilled way beyond me.

How do you know they are being marketed as replacements? Is it because of their weapons and how they look similar to the ones GW makes for their rank and file troops? I'm not a fan of these only because I thought they look to much like the very old krox. I would give these and the really old GW ones a 3/10, the second gen krox a 2/10, and the krox they are currently selling a 5/10. I'm just not really a fan of the krox models in general and even less of a fan with their role on the battlefield. I won't buy them from CHS nor GW. I prefer more skink and saurus.

Ah! They're metal. That should make life easier. Thanks Pyriel!

So CHS has not specifically said these were kroxigor replacements on there website, but the sculptor has. I have been following his progress on another forum, and nowhere does he ever call them 'lizard-ogres' they are kroxigors and we all know it.
No knock on the artist, they are good models. But I just don't think anybody should be able to cast and sell their own versions, basically leaching off of the game the GW owns and maintains. If there was a different game that these were meant for, I'd be fine with them.

 Pyriel- wrote:
The reason the original rocket launcher didnt make it to casting is...as already said in this thread *sigh*, that the post office screwed up the package and f....g lost it. Gone, poof, bang, it vanished with no tracing possible.

Not being glib here at all, but perhaps the lesson to take away from this is to get a courier company to deliver items like this that are for casting instead of USPS?

Thanks also for the better pictures of the various products in use. The ammo feeds look quite good. How flexible are they, and how do you stop paint flaking off them once painted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
I like the 'lizard-ogre' sculpts, great artistic work. But seriously, stop lying. They are Kroxigors. If you have to change the name so you don't get sued for copying another companies ideas, then maybe you shouldn't copy other companies' ideas. GW makes kroxigor models, stop trying to steal from them.
Bits and upgrade kits are ok because you still have to have the original model, but copying a full model is crossing the line.

D&D would like a word with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardfolk#Typical_physical_characteristics

Also - Tolkien, Moorcock, Heinlein, Gygax, Stallone, The Red Army of WW2, Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, The various orders of Templar Knights, Renaissance Europe, Christianity Judiasm and their Pantheon of Angels and Demons, The Catholic Church, The Spanish Inquisition, Cruella De Vil, HE Giger, James Cameron, The Norse Gods, Bubblegum Crisis, Imperial Stormtroopers, Nazi Stormtroopers, Ancient Egypt, The Byzantine Empire, The Mesopotamian Empire, The Lamassu, The Terminator franchise....

I could go on all night. Hm?

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
So CHS has not specifically said these were kroxigor replacements on there website, but the sculptor has. I have been following his progress on another forum, and nowhere does he ever call them 'lizard-ogres' they are kroxigors and we all know it.
No knock on the artist, they are good models. But I just don't think anybody should be able to cast and sell their own versions, basically leaching off of the game the GW owns and maintains. If there was a different game that these were meant for, I'd be fine with them.

Really? You're drawing the line at these not-Kroxigor? Their whole range is based on that idea. I was shocked they didn't call them Kroxigor. Ever since the lawsuit started, they've boldly used GW names for everything they can with few exceptions like the truscale Space Marines. Not calling them Kroxigor... I dunno, makes them feel a little less bold. It's weird that while you drew the line at these, so did Chapterhouse.

My only real complaint with them is they describe themselves as making 'high end' resin and metal parts, when they're really, really far from being high end.

Thanks also for the better pictures of the various products in use. The ammo feeds look quite good. How flexible are they, and how do you stop paint flaking off them once painted?

Thanks. For some reason I dont know why the missile green and the painted ditto look so different. Maybe a new mold would be in order, dunno.

The ammo feeds are as flexible as pewter normally is, meaning you can bend them pretty much and unless you keep bending back and forth metal fatigue shouldnt be a problem. I sure have used even pliers to bend the odd lone link in the exact right angle that I wanted now and then and nothing happened.

We all tried putting resin in hot water but I have no idea how metal would bend after a hot bath, imo that is not necessary. As I said, I can take and post more and better pics of my personal minis that use those feed lines so you can take a look (if you want me to) how I use mine and what can be done to/with them.

As for painting, remember to bend and clip them to size/shape and get a nice fit before you paint them, that is what I do and hence I didnt have to find out if the paint would flake of or not since I never had to bend the painted ammo feeders.

Not being glib here at all, but perhaps the lesson to take away from this is to get a courier company to deliver items like this that are for casting instead of USPS?

In retrospect yes. However during all my time sending packages to people as well as my friends had over the years not once did anything like this happen.
The package that was lost contained more masters then the missile launcher plus had a ton of minis and other things in it put by me as gifts to a friend so that one really sucked.

 -Loki- wrote:
My only real complaint with them is they describe themselves as making 'high end' resin and metal parts, when they're really, really far from being high end.

Don’t be so naive. There isn’t a company out there that describes themselves as “average” or “middling”. Do you get hung up whenever a company calls itself “The number one choice for [insert service here]” or “The best [whatever] in town!”? I doubt it.

 -Loki- wrote:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
So CHS has not specifically said these were kroxigor replacements on there website, but the sculptor has. I have been following his progress on another forum, and nowhere does he ever call them 'lizard-ogres' they are kroxigors and we all know it.
No knock on the artist, they are good models. But I just don't think anybody should be able to cast and sell their own versions, basically leaching off of the game the GW owns and maintains. If there was a different game that these were meant for, I'd be fine with them.

Really? You're drawing the line at these not-Kroxigor? Their whole range is based on that idea. I was shocked they didn't call them Kroxigor. Ever since the lawsuit started, they've boldly used GW names for everything they can with few exceptions like the truscale Space Marines. Not calling them Kroxigor... I dunno, makes them feel a little less bold. It's weird that while you drew the line at these, so did Chapterhouse.

I draw the line where on full models which replace a model gw has already in existence. i.e. kroxigors,
When GW had no wolves, I was ok with seeing 3rd party models, as that does not take away from GW because they have no option anyways.
When GW made the ugly storm raven, CHS made the extension kit. Which I think is ok. It does not replace the storm raven, it enhances it, so it does not take away from the original co.
When bits are hard to come by, and not available as just that bit, I'm ok with looking at 3rd party.

So to clarify myself, if a 3rd party product replaces the original, I don't think it is ok. If it enhances the original model, or if there is no original model, 3rd party stuff is ok.

If only companies didn't make space knights or space soldiers. And all those companies making elves and dwarfs!

The ammo belts look nice.

Surely there a better threads out there to discuss the chapterhouse vs GW debate?

Moronic Nonsense wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Moronic Nonsense wrote:
So CHS has not specifically said these were kroxigor replacements on there website, but the sculptor has. I have been following his progress on another forum, and nowhere does he ever call them 'lizard-ogres' they are kroxigors and we all know it.
No knock on the artist, they are good models. But I just don't think anybody should be able to cast and sell their own versions, basically leaching off of the game the GW owns and maintains. If there was a different game that these were meant for, I'd be fine with them.

Really? You're drawing the line at these not-Kroxigor? Their whole range is based on that idea. I was shocked they didn't call them Kroxigor. Ever since the lawsuit started, they've boldly used GW names for everything they can with few exceptions like the truscale Space Marines. Not calling them Kroxigor... I dunno, makes them feel a little less bold. It's weird that while you drew the line at these, so did Chapterhouse.

I draw the line where on full models which replace a model gw has already in existence. i.e. kroxigors,

So, like, a Farseer? Or, like, a Haemonculous? Because both of those are made by Chapterhouse. Full models. Granted, in these cases, they didn't call them Farseers or Haemonculous like they didn't call this a Kroxigor.

As I said, strange place to draw the line. They've had full replacement models for GW models for a while now.

I think they look great.

Clearly, the missile launcher pic used by CHS could be much better - the other pics do indeed give a better indication of the product, which, if I did not already have my cyclones, I would buy.

On the lizards, I would use them a supplemental models - sometimes its nice to NOT have everything the same pose.

(oh and my aliens and gundam are watching the IP debate with humor...oh, I mean my nids and tau).

Once I get my lizard man army started, I am very much going to pick up those big guys - likewise, I would pay for more diverse models in many ranges (not easy to repose finecast and plastic).

 Pyriel- wrote:

Not being glib here at all, but perhaps the lesson to take away from this is to get a courier company to deliver items like this that are for casting instead of USPS?

In retrospect yes. However during all my time sending packages to people as well as my friends had over the years not once did anything like this happen.
The package that was lost contained more masters then the missile launcher plus had a ton of minis and other things in it put by me as gifts to a friend so that one really sucked.

Strange, since I shipped out the sculpts for the Teminator Cyclone launchers in the same box with the Tau heads.

The "cathedral" design was my concept, CHS had me sculpt a different one. I threw that in because I thought it looked cool. It also went over the shoulders because many of the terminator shoulder pads are pretty large and I thought if "looked right" and felt more balanced.

Unfortunately had CHS asked me to redo the sculpt I wouldn't have been able to anyway; I had several other sculpting commissions to finish that had close deadlines. I had already missed 2 deadlines by a couple of weeks and didn't want to miss any more.

It's possible that some of the "wonkiness" of the sculpt is that the sculptor might not have had enough time to finesse it, I know I get rushed a lot.

When I feel like I'm being rushed I have to force myself to calm down, relax and tell myself that "it's only late until it's shipped, but it can suck forever." So I try to take my time.

Perhaps I was unclear?

The topic is NOT your opinion on CH's business model. Take it elsewhere, if you must.

 Pyriel- wrote:
For some reason I dont know why the missile green and the painted ditto look so different. Maybe a new mold would be in order, dunno.

Could be the painting or lighting that is asymmetric.

Strange, since I shipped out the sculpts for the Teminator Cyclone launchers in the same box with the Tau heads.

I took your masters and did "repair" work on them. Cutting away sloppy pieces, sculpting replacements, filing of the entire bottom and replacing it since the fit wasnt good enough. Afterwards I shipped the various finished pieces in the order I got them done and one package was lost.

Nothing strange abut it.

Could be the painting or lighting that is asymmetric.

Hope so, it sucks when a master is wrecked in casting but Nick should know how that turned out plus have the original master at hand if it survived.

I rather like the missile launcher. I hope it's jus thte paint job that makes it look a bit wonky in the preview pics.
Honestly, from what I've bought from Chapterhouse, the quality can be hit or miss. Still, I'd be willing to give these a shot.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Could be the painting or lighting that is asymmetric.

This. That paint job does not seem to do the piece any favors. I appreciate that they are trying to showcase it, but sometimes less is more.

 Pyriel- wrote:

Strange, since I shipped out the sculpts for the Teminator Cyclone launchers in the same box with the Tau heads.

I took your masters and did "repair" work on them. Cutting away sloppy pieces, sculpting replacements, filing of the entire bottom and replacing it since the fit wasnt good enough. Afterwards I shipped the various finished pieces in the order I got them done and one package was lost.

Nothing strange abut it

Interesting since my work has never been called "sloppy" by any of the other companies I've sculpted for. If anything I've been complimented on how clean my work is.

Not sure what replacements you are talking about. Looking at the pics Prplehippo posted everything looks pretty clean, the missiles too. The bottom seemed fine to me, since I sculpted it on the Terminator model itself so it would fit.

If changes were needed that should have been communicated to me by CHS, which is what every other company does that I've worked for.

Nor has anything I ever shipped out not being in the same box as what I received been called "strange".
Was a reaction to you questioning why the post office lost a package that I sent.



As for sloppy and CHS needed to communicate it well, it wasnt needed, first of all I didnt see it in the pics and even if I had I would be ok with it.
What I did was remake some of the "arrows" on the ornamental bands since they werent sharp. I also remade the bottom to enable a fit, has nothing to do with CHS, was my own initiative taken after delivery and lastly the second missile launcher, the "tubes" (that also "strangely" got lost in transit) needed to have their eagles replaced, I redid 3 out of 4 wings to make sharper "feathers" with an aesthetics more to my personal liking and I redid both of the "bodies" to also, make them look more to my taste.

My take, my initiative, my feeling of aesthetics. I´m sorry you took it as a personal insult to your skill, it wasnt, Im just blunt telling what I did without sugar coating anything.
Then again you better get used to things like this happening with me it since in my experience ALL sculpts made by one person will be slightly fixed up by another. Personally I'm not offended if other sculptors "correct" my work now and then since I know perfectly well that if I sit for hours over a piece then I wont see the errors I make as clearly as a fresh sculptor might thus, the end result is always better if multiple artists can hold a piece in their hands.
Its not critique its pure pragmatism.

Further on if you felt upset that I had to fix some what I called "sloppy" things...dont. After all, I liked the launcher you did so much that I decided, despite fuming with rage at the post office, to sit down and take the hours to make another, similar one after the masters were lost in transit.
That if anything should tell you enough about how I valued what I saw you made. Take that as a compliment...and I dont make them easy!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
My only real complaint with them is they describe themselves as making 'high end' resin and metal parts, when they're really, really far from being high end.

Don’t be so naive. There isn’t a company out there that describes themselves as “average” or “middling”. Do you get hung up whenever a company calls itself “The number one choice for [insert service here]” or “The best [whatever] in town!”? I doubt it.

Nah, the proper terms for that sort of company are "discount" or "budget"

I like the ammo feeds and the lizards are good. I wish the rocket launcher had been the Mark 1. Curious that if it was lost the same sculptor was not asked to make another master. The current one is okay but the lines are poor and the general work is less good than the original. Personally I think it would do well on chaos stuff as a havoc launcher.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
My only real complaint with them is they describe themselves as making 'high end' resin and metal parts, when they're really, really far from being high end.

Don’t be so naive. There isn’t a company out there that describes themselves as “average” or “middling”. Do you get hung up whenever a company calls itself “The number one choice for [insert service here]” or “The best [whatever] in town!”? I doubt it.

Nah, the proper terms for that sort of company are "discount" or "budget"

A better term would be "value"

An even better thing would be to stay on topic and heed the warnings other Moderators have already placed in this thread.

And that's the absolute final warning to do so - past this point, warnings and/or suspensions will be handed out.

I say just lock it. Every time CHS posts anything it's just a siren call to our resident White Knights to come a'charging.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I say just lock it. Every time CHS posts anything it's just a siren call to our resident White Knights to come a'charging.

I would rather mods start slapping people around for not listening as its useless to keep seeing the same old crap in every thread...more then enough people here like and or want to see the new stuff from CHS so the detractors need to learn they arent going to destroy every thread

On topic, where do the ammo belts connect in the back? Do you just tuck them under the backpack?

Since my Red Hunters are all Grey Knights models, I thought I could use these with the Knights models and jump packs as Assault Marines.

On topic, where do the ammo belts connect in the back? Do you just tuck them under the backpack?

That would basically be your own choice where you want to bend them towards.

Myself in the pics I posted, I use mine to go from the weapon to right between the backpack and the torso, they connect to the slightly raised piece where the backpack is glued to.

Well, since several people seem to like the missile launcher in theory but found the execution lacking, do you guys have any plans to remaster the concept? If so, it might be wise to say so up front so the early adopters don't feel burned.

I know that Anvil Industries is constantly in a state of refining his core designs to his benefit, and I think it shows with how good they have become.

SERIOUS OPPINION OF A POTENTIAL COSTUMER HERE:

CHS do it again. Comes with a nice concept, dig into a great thing we all want to see, and dont do it in a quite good way...

Missile Launcher looks horrible for me, and i will not buy it.

The pads, the ammo belts and the Lizards? Great stuff, great ideias, great exectution...

Right now, CHS seens to me as a very "hit or miss" company, they never give me feelings like "maybe if". It is always "i will buy when a need it", or "meh, not that...".

Just a quick note from an artist.

Telling someone that you think their product is crap is useful feedback.

Telling them WHY you think it's crap is more useful, as it gives them a direction to go for improving the product.

Same goes for telling them why you think the product is awesome. It gives them ideas on what to do on the next product.

 Pyriel- wrote:
As I said, I can take and post more and better pics of my personal minis that use those feed lines so you can take a look (if you want me to) how I use mine and what can be done to/with them.

As for painting, remember to bend and clip them to size/shape and get a nice fit before you paint them, that is what I do and hence I didnt have to find out if the paint would flake of or not since I never had to bend the painted ammo feeders.

I'd love to see some detailed pics of them in use on your figures.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your parcel. I had a delivery of commission-painted models I had done for a friend stolen when the postie left his trolley unattended in a dodgy street in Sydney, which was going to pay for a (3rd? 4th?) Ed 40k box in trade. That one sucked bigtime for both of us.

I think the lizard ogres look great but fall down in two areas:

1. The weapons are soft, squishy looking things that really don't match the rest of the sculpt.
2. The tails are anatomically improbable. The angle they stick out at would mean that the creatures' spines are kinked at 90 degrees from their bodies. A smooth curve would have been better.

Their heads are very nicely sculpted and other than those two problems I think they're great models.

Hi everyone, just thought I'd throw my hat in the ring. I am the sculptor of the Croc-Ogres (call them what you will). Interesting reading your comments. Just wanted to reply to angryboy2k, and perhaps others if they are interested in corresponding. On your two points -

1) I really don't know what you mean by the weapons being "soft" - they are almost entirely comprised of hard angles and edges, except for decorative touches and the grips, which certainly would be designed for the comfort of the user. The "business ends" of the weapons surely would leave a nasty mark on anyone struck by them...my 2 cents.

2) you are correct about the shape of the spine at the base of the tail, but that's fantasy for you. The alternative would be to have the tails drag on the ground (not very impressive, IMO), or have the figures leaning far forward like a t-rex or velociraptor bipedal dinosaur. That wouldn't look very Ogre-like, nor would it fit well in a Skrox unit. Those familiar with old school GW Krox will note that these models also had the L-shaped spine at the base of the tail thing happening.

On that last point, I did indeed make these as proxies for my GW Lizardman army, but by no means did I copy GW's artwork, as a side by side comparison surely shows. My collection of GW krox mostly consists of 5th edition figures with a few 7th edition thrown in. I am really not a fan of the 7th edition ones, as i find the anatomy very crude and the detailing to be over the top with fiddly bits. My goal however, since I use both versions, was to make something that looked like a missing link between the two...so if the 5th edition figures was the homo habilis, and the 7th edition was the homo spaien, I was going for something in-between, like homo-erectus. For head and face inspiration (and the scales and tails) I went to the natural world for inspiration, particularly crocodiles (as they are Croc-Orges) with a little snake thrown in, just because I find their stone cold expressions to be creepy.

FWIW, here is a photo of one of my Skrox units, with the GW figure used as a sort of champion, flanked by my guys. Note that the orange color scheme is rather unorthodox, and I'm looking forward to seeing how other people interpret these in more traditional colors:

Thanks for coming on here to address the points I raised. They look good in a unit; as I said I think they're great models overall.

I can ignore the tail issue for the reasons you've stated, though if I were using them myself I'd maybe have to convert them.

I'd probably swap the weapons out. When I described them as "soft", I meant that the hard edges of the weapons aren't really crisp. Look at the edges of the club of that guy on the right and I don't think they even look that straight.

Additionally, the sculpting on the weapons simply isn't as good as on the models themselves. The handles are okay, but the business ends of the axe and the club just don't look well-made and they look especially bad when compared with the rest of the model (the mace looks decent though).

To be more specific, the parts I don't like are the teeth on the axe (too large), the thickness of the axe-head (too thick), the gold trim on both the axe and the club (too wide, not very straight in places, rounded edges in parts, generally not "refined" enough IMO), and finally (to be very picky) the helical section of the axe shaft is probably thicker than it ought to be and has a few imperfections.

Long ago, back in the gloom of the 40's Ford offered a car in any color you'd like, as long as it was black. flash forward to the eighties, cars were in abundance in most garish colors you could perceive, and still producers didn't listen to consumers, the nineties was the golden age where companies reinvented themselves to cater anything to consumers and there were also a few lights in the darkness who even listened to the consumer.

the new millenium hit and the cluetrain manifesto became the dejour bible for most savvy marketing advisors and companies started to realise that it was integral to core business that they in fact listen to the consumer.

and now, we're on a forum, or rather a subforum of news, where a producer of third party products for wargaming is actually partaking in the discussion, there's a conversation about the products, no middle management, no middlehand, no conversation-per-pressrelease but an honest to god human conversation with all what that entails.

eponysterical!

 xcasex wrote:
the new millenium hit and the cluetrain manifesto became the dejour bible for most savvy marketing advisors and companies started to realise that it was integral to core business that they in fact listen to the consumer.

and now, we're on a forum, or rather a subforum of news, where a producer of third party products for wargaming is actually partaking in the discussion, there's a conversation about the products, no middle management, no middlehand, no conversation-per-pressrelease but an honest to god human conversation with all what that entails.

And then there is Games Workshop
BTW you are thinking of the Ford T in the period 1914-1926. Ford A and successors (and Ford T 1908-1914) were also produced in other colours.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 xcasex wrote:
the new millenium hit and the cluetrain manifesto became the dejour bible for most savvy marketing advisors and companies started to realise that it was integral to core business that they in fact listen to the consumer.

and now, we're on a forum, or rather a subforum of news, where a producer of third party products for wargaming is actually partaking in the discussion, there's a conversation about the products, no middle management, no middlehand, no conversation-per-pressrelease but an honest to god human conversation with all what that entails.

And then there is Games Workshop
BTW you are thinking of the Ford T in the period 1914-1926. Ford A and successors (and Ford T 1908-1914) were also produced in other colours.

Ah yes, you're right!

Thanks for clarifying angryboy2k. The teeth on the axe are large to fit in next to the teeth on the axes and other weapons that the GW krox wield. They weapons are oversized in many respects, and crude on purpose because these are supposed to be crude beasties, spawned for their brawn and not their brains. I imagine the weapons themselves take a fair amount of abuse too, bashing into steam tanks and armored chaos warriors and such all the time

One thing I have to bring up here is that I painted these myself and may not be the world's finest painter. In the case of the gold, my usual practice is to paint in shining gold and then wash/weather with brown ink in irregular blotches. I personally like this tarnished, well used look, but it is probably making the weapons look more irregular than they are in the painted photos.

Since we're dissecting/scrutinizing these in such detail, I think it's only fair for me to post photos I took of the minis before I painted them. I'm posting nice big photos so you can really see the details. At this magnification, every small flaw is really going to stand out. I venture to state that most GW minis would not hold up very well at this magnification:

Here is the first one, with his Axe, from several views:





And here is the other one, with his Club, likewise viewed from all sides:


img]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/BobLipp/Lizardmen/ClubCrocAssembledCasting05_zps5b4d4619.jpg[/img]

Note, while these models are finely cast, I have remover the mold lines and filled any gaps filled with putty, as any decent modeler should do with any resin miniature. It's worth adding too that the resin that CHS has used on these is of a very high quality - it is quite dense and smooth and was almost like injected plastic. I was very pleased with the results.

Protractors and microscopes aside, as both the artist who made these and as a miniature gamer and collector for over 30 years (going back to the little lumps of lead we were happy to own for D&D in the 1970's), my 2 cents is that you should try to appreciate the overall look and feel of these miniatures and not get lost in the minutiae of whether or not a particular line is perfect enough, or curve is 100% anatomically accurate or logical. FWIW, I feel I've breathed life into these guys. They look nasty, evil and like they are having a grand old time smashing stuff into a bloody pulp! What more do you want from Crocodillian Ogres?

If I can have a 3rd cent to toss into the ring, I'd also say (not directed to angryboy2k, btw) that it's quite obvious that some people conflate their critiques with their feelings about the GW v. CHS lawsuit. Certainly there are other threads available for such spleen venting. I think some of the comments have been rather unfair. These are not "replacement" minis and certainly not copies or knock-offs. Indeed, I think it's fair to assume that GW has no problem with them - certainly with a lawsuit in progress, GW is scrutinizing everything CHS does. FWIW, I made these minis not to replace GW's minis but rather to sit side by side with the existing models, and look like a missing link or alternative species of large bipedal anthropomorphic lizard. In the end, try to remember that I am just a gamer like the rest of you. I taught myself to sculpt out of sheer love for the hobby, and sold the reproduction rights to these because over the course of publishing WIP photos on several WH-related forums, I received very enthusiastic reviews of my work and dozens (literally) of pleas to make these available for purchase (the GW 7th ed. Kroxigors being some of the least liked of the entire current GW Lizardman range). Enjoy them, buy them, or move along...