I'm curious, whats your go-to chaos heavy support? Right now I'm hovering between obliterators/havocs with quad autocannon. Buuuut,l I also have a vindicator which I believe with daemonic possession would synergise really well with my primarily nurgle force (short range fire power) and a predator with autocannon/hb sides just to mix things up even more, which is just a good all rounder.

So... do any of the more experienced Chaos players have something to say? I did check the tactics articles but I think they are out of date :(.

dakkapreds with gargoyles. pew pew!

Unlike the last codex where it was basically all obliterators, all of the time, the heavy support now is fairly balanced.

I think the closest thing to a standard choice is the 4x autocannon havocs because of how cheap they are but predators are cheaper now, possessed vindicators still work, maulerfiends work in high speed high pressure armies, forge fiends are solid alternatives to havocs. We have a lot of choices now.

Well it can depend heavily on what else you plan on throwing into the field.

The chaos book is full of nuanced similar choices. It means it sort of relies on subtle differences and synergy with the rest of your list to make the decisions between the like options.

Havocs with autocannons and las cannon sponson predators. all the same points cheap and do their job well, stick them all behind an aegis with the havoc champ on the quad gun and you have a solid gun line.

Ok. Is there any way to aquire autocannons besides buying 4 boxes of havocs?

Sure.

1) Take all those Heavy Bolters that you've acquired from CSM/Havoc boxes.
2) Chop off the barrel and put a piece of tubing on the end (from Reapers usually, which are in Terminator and Defiler kits).
3) Put a Dragon head (from the Vehicle kits) on the end of the barrel.

Google search "Havoc Autocannon Conversion" to see pictures, and other alternative bits that are used.

I think a big question for Chaos heavy choices is, "do I plan on killing flyers?".
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Sidguard wrote:
Ok. Is there any way to aquire autocannons besides buying 4 boxes of havocs?

better in GD or PM but here goes
from Heavy Bolters

also a heavy bolter in here

Ork Big Shootaz



It really couldnt be easier

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

ADL is a great buy, but its not so expensive that you couldn't run it with flakk havocs if your concern was countering enemy flyers.

Ordnance & blast weapons can start firing from turn 1, most can punch through terminator armor and can insta-kill T4 and T5 models (depending on type). Don't misunderstand me, baleflamers on the helchicken are powerful but they aren't perfect.

Autocannon havocs are a good unit that is a cheap buy, but they aren't the only thing to consider for Chaos heavy options.

I use havocs with missile launchers and flakk all the time. Nice all around defense.

Anyone using vindicators? I was thinking of getting a pair but I dont want to spend the money if they aren't worth it. S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance seems great to me, the only down side I see is their 24' range. 130pts a piece isn't bad either (I'm including the siege shield upgrade for the auto-pass on dangerous terrain test). They can't hurt fliers though so I will need something else for that. I was thinking a Havoc Squad with Autocannons or Missile Launchers w/ Flakk Missiles beind a ADL, Champion shooting the Quad-gun.

Being an IW player i like big guns.

I am still working on my list but the Heavy Support i am working towards is

2 Vindicators - 24" is usually adequate for most games. I'm tempted to give them gargoyles so anything that survives the blast is set on fire.
1 Forgefiend (2 Hades Autocannons)

Strangely i've not been inclined to use my Obliterators yet since the codex came out.

I have tried the Defiler in a couple of games and REALLY wanted it to be as good as it looked on paper and justify it's points increase. It's not and it doesn't (in my experience). Despite the 4 HP and the 5++ it still gets popped in turn 1/2 so never gets to take advatage of its high number of attacks.

 minigun762 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

ADL is a great buy, but its not so expensive that you couldn't run it with flakk havocs if your concern was countering enemy flyers.

Ordnance & blast weapons can start firing from turn 1, most can punch through terminator armor and can insta-kill T4 and T5 models (depending on type). Don't misunderstand me, baleflamers on the helchicken are powerful but they aren't perfect.

Autocannon havocs are a good unit that is a cheap buy, but they aren't the only thing to consider for Chaos heavy options.

4 lascannon havocs arent a terrible buy either. They cost 20 points less than flakk havocs and while they are not good at anti flyer they are substantially better than missiles or autocannons at killing tanks(AV12-14) Will have to look at it but flakk and autocannons are str 7. VS just the AV12 fliers(Stormravens, Vendettas, Hellturkeys) they dont perform so well. Would lascannons hitting 25% of the time by comparison be worth it as they have a much higher chance of damage and destroy?

 minigun762 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If yes, you need to start looking at flakk havocs and go from there.
If no, I would look at the wide variety of blast and ordnance options to counter the growing trend of footslogging armies.

Why do you have to look a Flakk to go after flyers? 2 Autocannon squads with an ADL is cheaper than 2 Flakk squads, more effective against most enemies, and still a pretty good shot against most flyers. For those pesky Storm Raven you use your Guard allies, because Flakk is not good against them either.

Similarly, why would you use blast and ordinance to counter horde and footsloggers? That's what Heldrakes are for.

In other words, Autocannon Havocs evey time.

I would consider flakk vs autocannon for havocs because 4 flakk missiles are twice as effective as 4 autocannons against flyers, while being, at most, 50% more expensive.

While Flakk gets twice as many hits against flyers in a vacuum, the upgrade is also 2 and half times more expensive, and isn't as good against almost everything else, while still not being very good against AV12 flyers. This is supported in theory, and I've seen in action a few times, and it failed miserably. I've watched my mate play at least 4 games with them, and not once have they taken down a flyer. People have to remember having the word 'Skyfire' tacked onto something doesn't automatically make it good at that job.

I've tried Skyfire Havocs once in an apoc game and they were underwhelming.

Had more luck with higher rate of fire weaposn hitting on 6's than low rate of fire missiles hitting on 3's.

I'm not arguing that autocannons are bad. I'm only saying that the math supports the idea that flakk missiles are better at killing flyers.
As for price difference, I view it in terms of overall squads. 5 AC havocs and VotLW is 120 points. 5 flakk havocs with VotLW is 180. 60 point difference to double your AA firepower in the squad. Whether you think it's worth it however is dependent on the rest of your army as well as what threat level you assign flyers.


Exergy: I really like lascannon havocs. Cheap price and AP2 matters more these days. They can work for AA if you're going for the deadly penetrating hit instead of stripping hull points. Against something like the Chaos flyer, that might be wise.

 minigun762 wrote:

Exergy: I really like lascannon havocs. Cheap price and AP2 matters more these days. They can work for AA if you're going for the deadly penetrating hit instead of stripping hull points. Against something like the Chaos flyer, that might be wise.

Yeah at a certain point you are getting twice the damage results(glance and pens) of the autocannons and much higher chance of actually blowing it up. for 40 points more, it isnt so bad.
AV12 you have twice the chance per shot, so same chance of damage but much higher chance to blow it up.
AV13 you have three times the chance per shot, infinitely better chance to blow it up
AV14 you have infinitely better chance at everything.

And don't forget punching through armor saves and the potential for instant death kills. Lascannons are back in style.

Despite one option being waaaaay better than the other at flier killing, it doesn't mean that either is particularly effective against the fliers you tend to see fielded.

175 points a pretty big investment when you are thinking about how few hull points it is stripping against the thing you've gone out of the way to buy it for (generally something like 1 per turn against av 11-12 flyers). It just seems funny to me how many people are going out of their way to pay so many extra points to be be able to strip an extra .5 hull points from a flyer per unit. I guess some people just really like krak missiles too. I can't really argue with that.

Chaos tends to really need to combine fire to take down flyers because none of it's answers are that great. The dragon helps with this, and so do the defense lines, but a lot of your interesting units are made for rapid fire ranges or assaults and those don't really help you here.

People don't seem to think much about the forge fiend. It sorta has the ork benefit when shooting up that it's doesn't feel like as much of a waste because of it's crappy BS and high number of shots anyway, and that strength 8 feels really good when shooting at av 11/12. It's still not a real answer, but it's got a lot of targets and it adds saturation to rhinos and drakes you are playing.

I love durable units with lascannons too. It's too bad about the obliterator morale hit. That is just so lame. Try to make any havoc squad you are buying 20-25 point weapons for has a couple filler bodies and doesn't run off the board immediately.

another neat idea is infiltrating obliterators with huron or getting some of them to outflank with a slaanesh steed lord or sorc. Chaos is in dire need of reach shooting but the obliterators feel expensive points wise when they aren't making use of some of their bad ass generalist options.

Missile havocs aren't just about the flakk. Krak missiles have always been better than the autocannons at killing AV13-14. Its nice to be able to ID toughness 4. AP3 is much more useful against space marine armies if you have to shoot troops. And you will get a lot more wounds on bunched up units with frag than you will autocannons.

So that 60 points is getting you a lot more than an extra glance on a flyer.

I see vindicators making a big comeback too. Not because they got any better really. Just because most other competitive things, oblits and defiler, got worse.

A lot of people are changing to footslogging list lately, or so I seems in my area, and that why I see Vindicators as a good choice. Anything on foot is going to get blown to bits and most vehicles will get a pen hit on them too. Does Possession seem worth it on them? They need to be able to keep moving to get in to range, but at 20pts I'm not sure. Maybe Extra Armour for 15pts?

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
A lot of people are changing to footslogging list lately, or so I seems in my area, and that why I see Vindicators as a good choice. Anything on foot is going to get blown to bits and most vehicles will get a pen hit on them too. Does Possession seem worth it on them? They need to be able to keep moving to get in to range, but at 20pts I'm not sure. Maybe Extra Armour for 15pts?

I think I'd just keep them cheap and run two of them. Keep them together and run a rhino on the flanks for cover. Get them to midfield and let the fireworks begin.

I'd always take possession on Vindicators, because you can't snap fire ordnance weapons. I'd also take a second weapon to help protect the main gun.

So how about 2 Vindicators w/ Havoc Launcher and Siege Shield (142pts each) and a Hades Autocannon Forgefiend? Throw in a couple of double-plasma CSM squads in rhinos w/ Havoc Launchers as well. You would get deadlier as you close in. You would need a fast unit to keep the enemy from just staying out of range of your Demolisher Cannons, a Heldrake or Raptor squad maybe?

The more I play the more i think that Nurgle oblits are necessary in a number between 6 and 9 exactly like in the previous codex!
they are the only heavy support that can absorb GK and necron Firepower and now they can use one of the best fireweapon of the game the Assault Cannon!

The main problem with flakk havoks is that if your opponent brings fliers and wants them to survive, they will target the havocs first to get rid of them. If you bring autocannon havocs, they can fulfill lots of battlefield roles and not draw as much aggro from the fliers.

All the points you spend on autocannons can be used each turn, whereas the points you spend on the flakk upgrade will only be useful against the fliers and for drawing that extra aggro. This might not be the case of they also had interceptor, but they don't.

You still have the other missile options with flakk, so they will be able to target something. I think missiles have a wider array of optimal targets than autocannons anyway. Of course you do pay extra for that.

For serious AA coverage, I think players need to start with the ADL and quad gun. I don't think anything can match it for efficiency vs cost.

ADL, Quad Gun, Autocannon Havocks. That's a reasonable AA unit that can also wreck rhinos and chew into troops and MC's.

Yep. Once I get the funds I want to run forgefiends.

I feel like FF do well in pairs, are you planning on giving them both Autocannons or Ectoplasma or one of each?

2 with hades Autocannosn would be a LOT of dakka.

I am still worried about firign off 3 Ectoplasma cannons and rollign 3 1's to wreck the thing.

I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

 Praxiss wrote:
I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

^This seems like the best combo. I want the Ectoplasma for the AP2, but the Autocannons are no doubt more effective. 2 of those and a Vindicator or 2 Vindicators and one FF?

[quote
I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

This is why I LOVE the Chaos Marines codex. Love is a strong word and I LOVE it.

Ahem

I have tried all sort of things with Chaos and have been surprised that everything seems to work pretty well. Autocannon Havocs will put a hurt on anyone still rolling Razorspam/Rhinos and such. I used one unit of them that is 7 strong with MoN, VotLW with 4ACs. Seems pretty brutal so far and is generally hard to shift from cover. I also have been using a slightly more expensive unit of Havocs with MoN, VotLW, 7 strong with 4 Lascannons. These guys, like the other ones, are hard to shift out of cover and explode vehicles left and right. I really like this unit.
I have run Obliterators with MoN this edition and they seem really good too. Still killy, tougher like they were in 4th, and generally kick butt.
I am trying a Vindicator with some other armor in my list (i usually use armor denial foot based deathguard), and I will report back.
I don't own a Forgefiend yet but plan on picking one up from the fat guy in red.

I am sure you've all noticed but there is some stiff competition at the Heavy slot and Fast slot. The reason I love this is because I see all sorts of Chaos lists out there, making sure there is a whole lot less of "Oh no, Long Fang spam!" or "Oh no, Psyfilemen Spam!" or whatever because there seems to be lots of things that are good and worth taking.

Well, my favorites are Obliterators w/ MoN and Havos w/ 4 autocannons. Three HS units are almost mandatory in each competitive CSM army.
I could imagine that the Maulerfiend will work well in a Moster mash army that puts pressure upon the enemy, with Hellbrutes and DP(s).
Vindicators are great too, thanks to the new template rule. But then you need more than one vehicle to dilute enemy fire.

 Praxiss wrote:

I would field mine with hades and the head mounted ecto cannon i think.

Seems a bit of wasted points as you won't want to target the same type units with those very different guns, and the ranges don't match up.

Forgefiends or Flakk Missile Havocs

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Forgefiends or Flakk Missile Havocs

Flakk Missle Havocs are way to expensive.


As for Heavy Support, I've been running Two Forgefiends with Autocannons, and one Ecto. I find the Ecto doesn't always come into play, but it is nice to have when you need it.

I also use 3 Oblits as well, who have been doing fairly well. I may drop them for some Autocannon Havocs, but I'm pretty covered in the Anti-tank department.

I am enjoying two units of oblits right now with a unit of havocs two lascannon two autocannon and two extra dudes with MON.

One cracks open the shell
the other eats the nuts inside.

Then alternate.

Thinking of swapping out the havocs for the forgefiend(cause i just got it). This will make it easier to take two rhinos for my plague marines.

I was planning on going 1 Forgefiend, 1 Vindicator and then fill the remaining slot with something else.

I havn't tried out Havocs much. I was going to go with a 5 ML units of havocs but then noticed that 2 lascannon & 2 autocannosn are the same price.....decisions!

I haven't used my Oblits since the new codex came out but they woudlseem to look pretty much as they did before (minus the Fearless but I tended to avoid combat with them anyway).

Just out of curiosity - has ANYONE managed to make a Defiler worthwhile with their new rules?

I'e used Defilers a couple of times and they do well, but they just aren't worth the points. If they were cheaper I think they would see alot more use as they really aren't bad, but at 195 points base they are the 2nd most expensive HS choice. I just think the points can be better spent else were.

2x dakka-fiends
2x torrent-drakes
2x vendetta with 1 vet squad and 1 company command squad T

sounds like a fun basis for a list. Lots of stuff that drops in and ruins thing's day. Shooting 4 or more lascannon shots also isn't usually a waste.

I wonder how you fill it in...
Maybe some plague marines and a forward scoring unit?
AV12 saturation really isn't horrible.

yeah but a fully kitted out Forgefiend is just about the same points.

i suppose the Forgefiend benefits from being designed to sit back in cover where doing that with the Defiler just seems to be waste.

My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

 Lucre wrote:
My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

Forgefiends aren't exactly bargains either. I mean their guns aren't bad. But you pay for them. It is certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think that is why a lot of people are attracted to the autocannon havocs. You still get the 8 shots, a little less powerful, but much, much cheaper. And for light anti-tank or anti infantry duty are every bit as good as the FF.

I saw someone complain that the flakk havocs cost too much. Aren't they around the same cost as the forgefiend fully kitted? And they have real krak missiles for anti-meq, frag for anti-horde, and flakk for anti air. Only four shots vs 8, but with much higher chance to hit the firepower isn't much less. Especially when you factor in the special ammunition vs different targets. I mean a forgefiend vs MEQ is only scoring about 1.3 wound. The krak missiles should net 2.6. Against tanks the FF comes out a little bit ahead 2.6 to 4, but its much worse against fliers or hordes. For a tournament list I think I'd rather take the flakk for all comers.

I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

 VikingScott wrote:
I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

Why havocs over chosen? I mean its 15 points different, but you do get 5 attacks, +1 leadership, and an extra heavy slot out of the deal.

I'm using two dark vengeance boxes as the basis for a Nurgle army with lots of conversions. I've picked up a box of obliterators to tag along with my 2 hellbrutes but I can't decide on how to kit out the hellbrutes. Seems like I should just drop them and grab a forgefiend or vindicator.

Kevlar wrote:

 Lucre wrote:
My problem with defilers are that this book has expensive kinda meh scoring units and expensive awesome units and you just aren't getting enough other stuff you want if you're taking defilers.

Forgefiends aren't exactly bargains either. I mean their guns aren't bad. But you pay for them. It is certainly not a no-brainer choice. I think that is why a lot of people are attracted to the autocannon havocs. You still get the 8 shots, a little less powerful, but much, much cheaper. And for light anti-tank or anti infantry duty are every bit as good as the FF.

I saw someone complain that the flakk havocs cost too much. Aren't they around the same cost as the forgefiend fully kitted? And they have real krak missiles for anti-meq, frag for anti-horde, and flakk for anti air. Only four shots vs 8, but with much higher chance to hit the firepower isn't much less. Especially when you factor in the special ammunition vs different targets. I mean a forgefiend vs MEQ is only scoring about 1.3 wound. The krak missiles should net 2.6. Against tanks the FF comes out a little bit ahead 2.6 to 4, but its much worse against fliers or hordes. For a tournament list I think I'd rather take the flakk for all comers.

Yeah what you say is true, and I'm only sort of a grudging fiend advocate, because I think it's the little things that make the difference in this wonky codex. Lots of nuanced choices and I like the idea of pointing out the benefits of ones that are easily neglected. The havoc outfitting choice is a great example of this, especially when it comes to flakk. People really like to dismiss it but it does have it's reasons for existing.

Anyway I'll get to how we see things a little differently.
My first thoughts about your reasoning were that krak missiles are great for denying marines their armor saves, but you have to remember why volume was king last edition, cover saves are kinda free. They may not be as good, they may be weirder now, but they are there to hide in if your opponent is afraid of krak missiles. With a 5+ save instead of a 3+ save you are killing about the same number of dudes as the 8 hades shots will against 3+. I like both guns though, lord knows everyone wants plasma guns these days and with autocannons being so cheap str-8 is looking for a home!

My second impression revolves around how little people seem to be thinking about the real glances per turn out of these guns, especially when talking about shooting them at flyers. I know it isn't easy to get those glances on flyers and there is a real take what you can get atmosphere vs them right now, but realistically most flyers and harrier units will be actively trying to shut down your silver bullet units so the little benefits don't add up. I'm sure I have this somewhere else but lets just look at the numbers.
Glances per round of shooting at flyers:
4 Flakk (1.32 vs AV11) and (0.87 vs AV12)
2 Hades (0.84 vs AV11) and (0.64 vs AV12)
4 Autocannons (0.64 vs AV11) and (0.42 vs AV12)

So looking at that you see that these guys after buying their super anti flyer ammo are really only getting .5 (being generous in some cases) more per turn than less specialized alternatives. Being able to quote a weapon as doubly as effective as another against a target is great, but not when we are talking about numbers as pitiful as this. An argument could be made for it's benefits vs AV11, but I think it's obvious that this requires more thinking.

Now before we start cost benefit analysis based on this dumb effectiveness chart alone and find ways to turn this conversation off because we'd rather have a nice talking point to sit on, we should think about a couple other things. Like durability, effectiveness vs other common targets, what else you are likely to be running (if it helps your list deal with something it's bad at // belonging to a target saturation group). It's all about nuance right? Lots of the units in this codex do very similar crap with style differences. For instance, it's easy to say that the FML Havocs outperform or keep up with the fiends in most areas for the same price, but when it comes to Flakk Havocs or LC Havocs I'd feel incredibly uncomfortable keeping them at 5 men, even with the defense line (especially if you bought it a gun). There's all sorts of risk having 5 guys with all special weapons sitting in the back field relying on 3+/4+ to keep their 225 (FML+quad gun) investment from running or being blown off the board. You start thinking about extra bodies or leadership or keeping a warpsmith with the unit and suddenly you've got a very different cost estimation going on. That isn't to say it's the worst of the choices, but it's something to think about. One great benefit of going for FML Havocs is that in many matches it gives you a very attractive unit to man the Quad gun. It's like a no brainer. You might also think about the fact that the Fiend will be rolling more often on damage charts given it will be getting penetrations more often and the fact that it's +5 means it is much less reliant on cover than standard shooting options and it's presence makes helldrakes more interesting. The stupid regeneration rule is also more relevant the more str-7 you see (fewer penetration related deaths and it takes some concentrated attention for 2 shot strength 7 guns to remove 3 av12 hp in a turn). Even FNP, the traditional big consideration when deciding to go for volume of fire vs quality shots is in most cases denied by the str-8 of the gun. When considering Autocannon Havocs I tend to just think about how they combine fire well against most targets and just allow you to take your dumb expensive HQ, flyer, ally and mediocre troop units because you have lots of points left over, and there's a certain psychological effect to having that many autocannons and some opponents might sink waaaay too many points worth of units trying to silence your 115 point dorks (though you'll also meet people who know exactly how little it takes to disrupt a few power armored ld9 dorks). Like for 115 points, 60 points less then that other big option, how many fewer glances per turn are you getting against common targets? How many more marines/ necron warriors in or our of cover will you be knocking down? Is it a fraction more? Is that important?

Obliterators are a whole 'nother can of worms and so are defilers. I just have trouble getting behind defilers because I love redundancy and I feel like it doesn't solve any of chaos's problems well enough to warrant it's price or it's slot usage. What I like in the Forgefiend is it's lots of str-8 shots, and it's reach on the table. It feels like it will consistently be doing something I'm happy about because what it's good at can be put to a lot of jobs. Str-8 has a lot of utility and it doesn't have a hard time finding it's targets. The defilers can put down pie plates and be a great big hilarious distraction that will eventually tie up and score a bunch of wounds in close combat unless someone runs away from it, sinks a lot of shooting into it or the enemy has an adequate number of krak grenades. I'm not sure how much I care about a pie plate that expensive and there is just so much potential for plasma rapid fire in this army already that expensive blasts aren't exciting (not to mention low BS pie plates are scary when most of your guys are only interesting at 12 inches or less from the enemy). The one big shot just doesn't make me feel as comfortable as lots of multipurpose dakka. And again in buying a defiler you have even less money for awesome allies, suped up HQ, mediocre troops and dragons. Templates aren't something chaos has trouble with (rhino launchers, doomsiren, balefire, brand) and it has tonnes of stuff that wound marines well at strength 7 or under, but it's what falls outside of that I'm willing to spend a few extra points to invest in. But that decision isn't really the only one out there. I'll say forgefiends are actually kinda bad. In lots of lists or environments they are just bad (no kinda about it).


Eh, I'm going on and on, but I'm trying to say it's not an easy decision. Most of the options tend to feel a little lame when you think about them, so my line of thought is get the ones you feel like are the cheapest (so you can have lots of crappy answers that can combine into something competent) or get ones that you feel like you can use for a lot of jobs or will get a lot of turns use out of. These are decisions that have a lot to do with what your list is already capable of. If you've got termicide or 3xmelta bikers already you might need less strength 8 or even 36+ range weapons around. If you want to run 2 drakes and some sort of biker deathstar you might want the cheapest long ranged guns you can find, because you don't feel like you're getting your money's worth on the options that are 50 points more and want to have room for scoring units.

lots of good info up there^^

I agree that a big thing to consider when making this choice is what the rest of your army consist of. If I'm running a footslogging list then Havocs and/or Obliterators behind an ADL is probably the best choice. On the other hand, if I have lots of armour (Rhinos, Vindicators, Helbrutes, Drakes, ect.) then FF seems the better choice to add to target saturation. The more I hear other peoples thoughts, the more I like the Hades FF. In the right kind of list it can work very well, able to damage just about anything and having a great threat range. As I said before, I think it works best with other AV12 or 13 models to help with target saturation, otherwise it will get shot up very quickly.

Predators are probably my least favorite of the HS choices just because for the same price as one with Heavy Bolter sponsons you can get a 5-man Autocannon Havoc Squad or for 5 more points you get a Vindicator.

I am goign to armour saturation at the moment....kind of.

I knwo that armour is now kind of meh but my lists at minute tend to include:

1 Rhino
1 land raider
1 helbrute
1 Vindicator

I figure if I add a Hades FF to that it will be able to sit back and take advantage of its range in most games and the S8 guns are versatiel enough to threaten just about everything i can point it at.

I'm thinking of getting the Spartan Assault tank from FW. I would run it with 2 Vindicators and 2 Hades FF along with 80 Berzerkers lead by Kharn for a 3k army. I would give the Vindicators each a Havoc Launcher so they have something to shoot the first few turns. They would go after hordes until they got in range of the Demolisher Cannon, at which point they'll blow up anything they please. The two FF can harm just about anything as well, but they're priority will be fliers. The Spartan Assault Tank has a Reaper Autocannon and 2 Quad-Cannons, which are Heavy 2 TW Lascannons. Each Quad-Cannon all but guarantees something will get blown up each turn.

Everything has something they are very good at killing, but all can harm a wide range of things so they will always be able to do some damage. Total there are 17 HP on the table and the Spartan has 14AV all the way around plus Meltas don't get the extra D6 to pen. It's a hard nut to crack and will really anchor the force down and provide good cover for my footslogging Berzerkers.

I ran obliterators for awhile but I have switched back to squads of havocs with autocannons (no flakk missiles). I supplement them with a few 'Drakes. Is it the right choice? Well, in some games yes. If you have durable enough squads - plaguebearers. mon spawn, plaguemarines, etc., you can mitigate flyer damage anyway.

@felixcat Do you give your Havocs MoN and/or VotLW or do you keep them cheap with just the 4 autocannons?

I too have been wondering about the relevance of +T on havocs.

I assume they aren't catching too much generic rapid fire until they've already had a chance to work hard for you and thats where the +T is really helpful. Exceptions being harrier units, frag missiles and stuff like multi/scatter lasers.

It's a cheap buy and I keep thinking it's a fun sink but I have to ask myself what it's doing.

I keep forgetting about predators too! Are the lascannons cheaper? I wonder how good lascannons are now.

The Autocannon/Heavy Bolter Predator is only 95 points, something I just reread now. That is very cheap!

Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle are good. T5 2+ 5++ bricks with assault cannons and other awesome goodies for 76pts each (78 with VotLW)? Hell yeah.

AC Havocs are dirt cheap fire support for nuking medium armour, but they won't be able to scratch AV14, so you'll need something bigger (Vindicators, Oblits, etc.) to take them out. You'll need some synergy between your firepower if you want to get the most bang for your buck.

Vindicators are good. Here's how I run mine: Siege Shield, Combi-bolter, Daemonic Possession = 150pts. The Combi bolter is simply to give me an effective 4+ save against armament destroyed results. Eh, it's 5pts, I think it's worth it.

I run all 3 in my lists, gives me all the BOOM! I need.

Maulerfiends might be worth it depending on how you use them. 12" movement ignores terrain will get close fast, especially if you run in the movement phase. Turn 2 assault can be easily attained with good placement. However, if you charge straight up the middle, it's gonna die fast.

Forgefiends... I dunno. 175 is pretty steep for 8 BS3 shots. You might need a Warpsmith to feed him Scooby snacks when he stubs his toe.

Defilers went through the roof points wise, I think they might have priced them out of being viable. Shame, I did like my giant mechanical crabs.

@felixcat Do you give your Havocs MoN and/or VotLW or do you keep them cheap with just the 4 autocannons?

I give them VotLW - it's cheap enough.

Fast Attack: 2x 1 Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
Heavy Support: 2x 5 Chaos Havocs, 4 Autocannons; VotLW

This is my core AA/AT ... I do use a daemon detachment though ... blue scribes w/ flamers and screamers. So my opponent has other worries. I also have my mini deathstar of chaos lord and spawn. They take care of a lot of AT as well.

I'm going to agree with Minigun here about the ML havocs, but I want to suggest the idea of spamming them.

3 units of 5-6 havocs each with 4 ML plus flakk.

Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good. Havocs without VotLW and missiles cost about the same (personally I'd leave the vet upgrade off of small havoc squads since they mostly won't be testing leadership because they'll either be untouched or wiped out).

Then once you've paid for your ML havoc units, the flakk upgrade for 12 missile launchers costs only 20 points more than an aegis wall with quad gun. But it gives you 3 times the shots and 3 targets--and takes 3 times the firepower needed to knock out a quad gun.

Think about the armies that you see in tournaments. Some have zero flyers. A lot have 1-2 flyers. A few are real air force armies with mostly flyers.

With 3 havoc units equipped this way, you're taking down about a flyer per turn.

You never really have to worry about the flyers in the 1-2 flyer army again--just knock them down as they appear.

Against the air force army you actually have a decent chance, especially because these are mostly really Necron armies, where the AV10 flyers go down to Str7 flakk more easily.

Against the armies with no flyers, you still have 12 missile launchers for killing light-med armor, MEq and hordes.

What's not to like?

Flavius Infernus wrote:Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good.

Do your Havocs have ATSKNF or Counter Attack? Do they carry two hand weapons or can they split fire? Do they have Ld9 base and only cost 115pts per unit? You're making a shoddy comparison negating most of the facts, and failing at it, which is usually what happens when a unit from one Codex tries to mimic one from another. Quite simply, if you think spending 525pts to down a single flyer a turn is worth it, you are sorely mistaken.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good.

Do your Havocs have ATSKNF or Counter Attack? Do they carry two hand weapons or can they split fire? Do they have Ld9 base and only cost 115pts per unit? You're making a shoddy comparison negating most of the facts, and failing at it, which is usually what happens when a unit from one Codex tries to mimic one from another. Quite simply, if you think spending 525pts to down a single flyer a turn is worth it, you are sorely mistaken.

To be fair, it's spending 405 points to be able to shoot 12 missiles per turn, and spending 120 points to be able to add the ability to down a flyer per turn to the existing missile capability.

Ignore the long fang comparison if if bugs you and think about the value of missile havoc spam in the context of the chaos codex and the ability to build an army that picks you apart at range while also assaulting into you face.

3 ML havoc spam plus 3 hellbrutes with reaper/missile as a firebase, then add 1000 points of assault units.

Or start with 3 ML havoc spam and add ork allies--two chunky units of boyz, a KFF mek and a cheap unit of lootas for extra shooting. Buy your objective campers from the chaos codex and send a choppy lord with spawn up to the front.

Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

Add in some cheap bikes units x3 with melta spam, and I'll get on board with it.

I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

I'm thinking, though, that the advantage of 3 havoc units in this case is the target saturation. If you only have one unit of flakk guys, then it's the same problem that a lone quad gun has--your opponent knows he just has to kill that one target, and all real threats to his flyers are gone.

With three havoc units he has to make a hard choice between trying to protect his flyers by trying to shoot them all up (thus drawing fire away from your assault elements) or targeting your assault arm and giving up his flyers.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

I'm thinking, though, that the advantage of 3 havoc units in this case is the target saturation. If you only have one unit of flakk guys, then it's the same problem that a lone quad gun has--your opponent knows he just has to kill that one target, and all real threats to his flyers are gone.

With three havoc units he has to make a hard choice between trying to protect his flyers by trying to shoot them all up (thus drawing fire away from your assault elements) or targeting your assault arm and giving up his flyers.

Plus missile Havocs with Flakk missiles can still fire Krak and Frag missiles, making them reasonably effective against ground targets as well.

 minigun762 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

I'm not sure how much work that unit actually gets done though sir (The primary air concerned situation). I think rounding to the nearest one both the quad gun and the 4 flakks are accountable for (various degrees of) one hull point each for your standard flyer. You can reliably deal 2 hullpoints of damage to a flyer at range every turn, until something deals with your 5 expensive men.

I really hate resorting to Autocannon Havocs as the default here, but at the end of the day, is the ability to fire krak missiles and the 0.4 more glances vs air per turn
that flakk give you really account for the extra 60 points? That's a question for you!


Downing flyers is a very expensive prospect at the moment. I wonder what your targets should be for how many points of shooting to throw at it per round of shooting per turn. Flavius is looking at this in a way I really like, but I'm only feeling more lost for it.

Thank you everyone for the good discussion. It's refreshing and thought provoking.

Kevlar wrote:

 VikingScott wrote:
I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

Why havocs over chosen? I mean its 15 points different, but you do get 5 attacks, +1 leadership, and an extra heavy slot out of the deal.

Because I take termicide or regular terminator squads for elite.

 Lucre wrote:



I really hate resorting to Autocannon Havocs as the default here, but at the end of the day, is the ability to fire krak missiles and the 0.4 more glances vs air per turn
that flakk give you really account for the extra 60 points? That's a question for you!

I agree that a single unit of flakk havocs is not worth it (too easy to kill), and that even two units is kind of borderline.

But the economy of scale kicks in when you have 12 missile launchers firing:

12 flakk gets 3.96 vs. AV 11 and 2.61 vs AV 12

12 autocannons gets 1.92 vs AV 11 and 1.26 vs AV 12

The odds reflect my original argument--an army with 12 flakk launchers doesn't have to worry at all about an opponent with 1-2 flyers, and will have a decent chance to cause serious damage to a flyer-heavy army. So in a tournament environment, those extra points spent represent a hard counter to certain enemy units.

Plus you're not just paying extra points to add anti-air to autocannons. Part of the extra cost is that you also get the missile launcher.

The chaos list is full of good value units that allow you to economize in other parts of the FOC without having to always take the cheapest heavy option.

Huzzah! More like ML Flakk Havocs!

I really need to work my list around to acyually include them, 10 termis are too expensive... not to mention noise marines...

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

But against MEQ and a lot of big MC the krak missiles far outperform the autocannons. AP3 is kind of a big deal. So you are paying more points but you are much more effective against some very common opponents.

Kevlar wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

But against MEQ and a lot of big MC the krak missiles far outperform the autocannons. AP3 is kind of a big deal. So you are paying more points but you are much more effective against some very common opponents.

but against other MCs and Teq ML are useless. You are using your whole HS section on things that are nearly worthless against very heavy things in the game. AV14 and 2+ saves. You also are not very good against AV12 fliers or hordes(500 some points for 12 Str4 blasts istn good)

 Exergy wrote:


but against other MCs and Teq ML are useless. You are using your whole HS section on things that are nearly worthless against very heavy things in the game. AV14 and 2+ saves. You also are not very good against AV12 fliers or hordes(500 some points for 12 Str4 blasts istn good)

Err, krak missiles aren't as useless as autocannons against AV14. And you are screwed either way if your opponent shows up with terminators. You should have just taken the obliterators.

I think using a mix is better than spamming a single unit. It gives you a variety of weapons to deal with a variety of things. In the debate between ML and Autocannons, both are very similar and have a good chance of doing damage to anything they target (within their ability, ie no LR or TEQ). By taking one of both squads you can have each one focus on what it's really good at taking out. ML w/ Flakks can go for fliers and Autocannons can take out like vehicles and such. If either one needs help, or some major threat emerges (mass fliers coming in turn 2), then both squads can turn their guns to the skies and take it out. Next turn they are off doing there own thing again.

Flakk ML Squad cost -175
Autocannon Squad cost -115
3 Obliterators -210
ADL w/ Quad-gun -100
Thats 600 total points for plenty of firepower. Each has a wide range of targets they can hurt, but each also has something they are specifically good at taking out. ADL and ML would focus on fliers, Autocannons can go after light vehicles and infantry, Obliterators target AV14 and TEQ.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Huzzah! More like ML Flakk Havocs!

I really need to work my list around to acyually include them, 10 termis are too expensive... not to mention noise marines...

Okay this is really more of a response to our friend Flavius but I think this illustrates it pretty well.
This is my other big deciding factor in chaos heavy (or in general). Stuff gets expensive and your core units don't work well when they are cheap. The difference between 15 autocannon havocs and a full suite of FML havocs is about a hell drake. I try to take as many options that can do a good job cheaply as possible in this book (suicide bikers, spawn harriers and tarpit, autocannons) but even after that its hard to raise a family after covering your bases. I suspect I need fewer harrying and objective clearing units than I take but drake and the other fast or template options are all so fun and multipurpose.

I wonder if there is a list out there with 9 obliterators and 10 terminators.

i think all the heavy supports have a place depends on the rest of the army. however that being said i still think the vindi sucks

Flavius Infernus wrote:Ignore the long fang comparison if if bugs you and think about the value of missile havoc spam in the context of the chaos codex and the ability to build an army that picks you apart at range while also assaulting into you face.

3 ML havoc spam plus 3 hellbrutes with reaper/missile as a firebase, then add 1000 points of assault units.

And that's the problem, the value you are seeing just isn't there in the grand scheme or things, or at least as far as competitive lists go. Your example just proves that thinking however, as that is not a competitive list at all, and I dare say you won't see that on the tournament scene not to mind seeing it place.

Flavius Infernus wrote:12 flakk gets 3.96 vs. AV 11 and 2.61 vs AV 12

And here we come to it. 525pts to do that much damage is rather appaling. That is not good anti-air by any standard. I have to wonder how competitive someone is playing when they spend that many points to do so little. Even n casual play I would feel cheated. I respect that for some reason you are seeing the above math as pleasing, but that is objectively a bad outcome. It's effectvely doing that one thing that flyers really hope you will do; pay too much attention to them. There are much better things to do with 3 units of Havocs.

minigun762 wrote:That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

Frag Missiles pretty much never outperform Autocannons in a realistic environment, and Krak outperform only against MEQ targets, so no they do not outperform against a variety of targets, they outperform against one. As has been stated 4 Flakk missiles are not good at taking down flyers; the fact that you would make a bad decision for your own reasons doesn't make the option good.

minigun762 wrote:The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

There's a difference between tunnel vision and acknowledging when one option is better than another.

minigun762 wrote:I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

In other words, taking the good option and the less good option, and making both of them worse. No offence but if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player. And that's fine, I have no problem with that, so as long as you don't serenade things as competitive that may not be. There's a completely different way of thinking when making a casual list and a competitive list after all.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Frag Missiles pretty much never outperform Autocannons in a realistic environment, and Krak outperform only against MEQ targets, so no they do not outperform against a variety of targets, they outperform against one. As has been stated 4 Flakk missiles are not good at taking down flyers; the fact that you would make a bad decision for your own reasons doesn't make the option good.


There's a difference between tunnel vision and acknowledging when one option is better than another.


In other words, taking the good option and the less good option, and making both of them worse. No offence but if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player. And that's fine, I have no problem with that, so as long as you don't serenade things as competitive that may not be. There's a completely different way of thinking when making a casual list and a competitive list after all.

I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

For example, I do consider the missile & autocannon havoc squad to be a viable option. By combining the two choices, I have decreased the point cost of the all flakk option while still maintaining the equivalent AA firepower of 3 flakk missiles, so I am still better at killing flyers than straight autocannons. In my eyes, missiles and autocannons are both generalist weapons, so there is rarely going to be a target that I would shooting with one type and not the other, especially when the primarily role of both weapons systems is destruction of AV10-13 vehicles. On a non-tactical point, I think the squad would look better without 4 identical weapons as it helps break it up some.

Either way, I thank you for your discussion.

@Godless-Mimicry

It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
@Godless-Mimicry

It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

even with the IG allies tax of having to take either a small platoon or vet squad and a CCS(awesome units) 3 vendettas are only 390 points(520 with the TAX no upgrades) Much better anti flyer than 12 flakk shots and much harder to kill.

I agree with the allied Vendettas. If an army needs air defense and wants air superiority, its hard to go wrong with Vendettas. They are just the best.
But alas, this isn't the "anti-air CSM allies" thread, its the Chaos Heavy Support thread.
I've found that so far in 6th edition, I'm needing more "anti-tank" and "anti-infantry" roles instead of the ol' generalist type stuff I used to use. In 5th, I saw lots of razorbacks, rhinos and chimeras, so I used lots of STR7-8 shooting between missiles and autocannons. They did okay anti-infantry and took down the massed medium armor of the game pretty well.
Moving to 6th, the most dangerous piece of AV12 I used to fight was the Vendetta, and now that freaker flies! But I have seen a LOT less AV11-12 on the table and a lot more AV13 ala Necrons and even more AV14 via Land Raiders and such along with a lot more armor denial armies running no AV at all. The games where I have had heavy anti-tank and heavy anti infantry, I've done pretty well. I am leaning a lot more towards using Obliterators again due to this. I mean, when I want a tank dead, I melta or lascannon it. If I want troops dead, assault cannon/plasma cannon, there we go. If I want a horde dead, well, my Baleflamer/Heavy Flamer/Burning brands tend to take care of the problem.
I have found my AC Havocs to be underwhelming at best as of late. I feel like I am rambling, so I will stop.
Hopefully this gets the thread back on track!

 Brymm wrote:
I agree with the allied Vendettas. If an army needs air defense and wants air superiority, its hard to go wrong with Vendettas. They are just the best.
But alas, this isn't the "anti-air CSM allies" thread, its the Chaos Heavy Support thread.
I've found that so far in 6th edition, I'm needing more "anti-tank" and "anti-infantry" roles instead of the ol' generalist type stuff I used to use. In 5th, I saw lots of razorbacks, rhinos and chimeras, so I used lots of STR7-8 shooting between missiles and autocannons. They did okay anti-infantry and took down the massed medium armor of the game pretty well.
Moving to 6th, the most dangerous piece of AV12 I used to fight was the Vendetta, and now that freaker flies! But I have seen a LOT less AV11-12 on the table and a lot more AV13 ala Necrons and even more AV14 via Land Raiders and such along with a lot more armor denial armies running no AV at all. The games where I have had heavy anti-tank and heavy anti infantry, I've done pretty well. I am leaning a lot more towards using Obliterators again due to this. I mean, when I want a tank dead, I melta or lascannon it. If I want troops dead, assault cannon/plasma cannon, there we go. If I want a horde dead, well, my Baleflamer/Heavy Flamer/Burning brands tend to take care of the problem.
I have found my AC Havocs to be underwhelming at best as of late. I feel like I am rambling, so I will stop.
Hopefully this gets the thread back on track!

yes I was merely pointing out that perhaps one shouldnt look for antiair in the heavy support section.

I am really liking lascannon havocs more and more. I usually run them with a wound catcher, 6 men and lascannons. If i find a need for 13 points I might take them down to 5. But for 155(168 for 6) you get a pretty cheap long ranged AT. It can melt light armor without wasting too many points. Does great against medium armor, has a good chance against heavy armor and can even take out heavy fliers in a pinch.

I might not feel like a total dill weed if I ran one unit of flakks along with 2 of the autocannon sort and the defense line. the defense line would be doing a lot of work and the extra bodies near the gun in the flakk squad wouldn't feel too bad. what is that getting something like 2 wounds on most flyers per turn (flakk + turret) and then if you had room for a couple of dragons you'd be sitting pretty. Expensive non-core units though... and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

Then again I could always just ally with IG! 2 vendettas a vet squad and a CCS make for a nice addition to a force. Griffons are cheap too, but I think you already have helldrakes for that.

I was also thinking of running a plague marine force with full havocs a drake and then 2 units of full immortals in nightscythes and as many tiny harrier units as possible, then again this raises the question if tesla barges are better than havocs.

Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

You don't even really need cover for forgefiends. You do need something in the way of assaults though.

That list is something I'd like to try but it's like so many instances of 170 points that dont score or anything. Plus you have to think about all the things CSM really sucks at or the great units in other dex's you could take and try to fit in some of that before you go for crappy chaos HS slot number 3 or drake number 2/3

Hence why there is elites fast attack, and solid CSM troopers for that purpose, on a side note if there needs to be something assault-worthy just stick a unit of warp talons down with a good CC jump pack lord and watch as those gun lines are now BS 1 because of the blind rule*.

*And for the record you can make even more aggressive Deep strikes now because of the softer deep strike rules.

 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

forgefiends are 40 points more expensive than a psirifleman with a swap out of special rules. Sure they have a 5++ and IWND, but it is pretty easy to get cover these days and IWND isnt all that useful. GK dreads get smoke launchers, Aegis, reinforced aegis and prefered enemy daemons. Still those 40 points add up.

Beyond that they really need a babysitter. Assault them and they are mush, so on top of the 525 points you are fiends you then need something back there to help them out of assault.

minigun762 wrote:I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

That's cool, and good to know, as it clarifies that we are essentially talking about different things here. Your reasoning works for a solid enough choice, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an optimal load-out for a competitive list is all, as I am a competitive gamer.

As some friendly advice though, never confuse being competitive and being WAAC, or TheCaptain may show up to flog you

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

I didn't tell you you were wrong because you weren't competitive, I told you you were wrong because the evidence you provided yourself showed your point to be wrong, and deduced that since you couldn't see that, that you may be a casual gamer. And why would I present evidence when the evidence you presented yourself already disproves your point?

It is hilarious that you say the 525pts 'argument' is strawman. Firstly, it isn't an argument, it is a fact, that's what the unit costs. Secondly, you can't separate the points cost but use the full benefit for your argument; that is ridiculous and absurd, and yet you cry strawman about things that aren't even arguments; simply put your point doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially when you have proven yourself wrong in your own findings. As for proving that Autocannons are better than regular Missile Launchers, why bother prove something that many of the net's well known math-hammer lovers have done over and over again. The findings were conclusive; MLs are better against MEQ and AV14, Autocannons are better against everything else. I'm not going to waste my time going finding that mathimatical summary or redoing it myself, as I feel this debate is pointless at this rate since the idea of points efficiency has already gone out the window, not to mention that it should be plain to see (when the AP or strength doesn't matter, more shots wins, and in most cases the strength or AP doesn't matter).

As for what is and isn't competitive, that is all part of the discussion whether you like it or not, because tactics threads tend to be about what is the best option, which is an area of competition, not what's fun and fluffy. If you get insulted by the fact that someone points out that you don't seem like a competitive gamer, then the internet isn't for you, as it really is nothing more than an observation; last I checked there was nothing wrong with not playing competitively. Either way I'm not going to debate the point further with you, because as I said, you just don't seem to get it when it comes to points efficiency (no offence intended but that's how you come off), so I'll leave you to your own opinion instead of wasting both our time.

Lucre wrote:and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

I've seen you post this every chance you have gotten since the Codex hit earth, and it still isn't becoming true I'm afraid. We have one of the cheapest Troops sections of all codices, and the choices are solid; not being Grey Hunter broken doesn't make them mediocre.

 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

Really? Considering that (a) Psyflemen Dreads haven't been the rage since 5th edition, and (b) trying to mimic lists across codices doesn't usually work, it's not surprisng at all.

I run a Predator with autocannon, and 2 lascannon sponsons on the sides. Then a basic Forgefiend. I was thinking about going with the 2 hades autocannons, and a ectoplasma cannon, but the difference in range just didn't make sense for me to spend the extra points on it versus something else. I have a great time shooting at anything and everything with my forgefiend. Everytime it shoots at something it is either wrecking or blowing it up (minus flyers, but that is what the heldrake is for).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

That's cool, and good to know, as it clarifies that we are essentially talking about different things here. Your reasoning works for a solid enough choice, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an optimal load-out for a competitive list is all, as I am a competitive gamer.

As some friendly advice though, never confuse being competitive and being WAAC, or TheCaptain may show up to flog you

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

I didn't tell you you were wrong because you weren't competitive, I told you you were wrong because the evidence you provided yourself showed your point to be wrong, and deduced that since you couldn't see that, that you may be a casual gamer. And why would I present evidence when the evidence you presented yourself already disproves your point?

It is hilarious that you say the 525pts 'argument' is strawman. Firstly, it isn't an argument, it is a fact, that's what the unit costs. Secondly, you can't separate the points cost but use the full benefit for your argument; that is ridiculous and absurd, and yet you cry strawman about things that aren't even arguments; simply put your point doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially when you have proven yourself wrong in your own findings. As for proving that Autocannons are better than regular Missile Launchers, why bother prove something that many of the net's well known math-hammer lovers have done over and over again. The findings were conclusive; MLs are better against MEQ and AV14, Autocannons are better against everything else. I'm not going to waste my time going finding that mathimatical summary or redoing it myself, as I feel this debate is pointless at this rate since the idea of points efficiency has already gone out the window, not to mention that it should be plain to see (when the AP or strength doesn't matter, more shots wins, and in most cases the strength or AP doesn't matter).

As for what is and isn't competitive, that is all part of the discussion whether you like it or not, because tactics threads tend to be about what is the best option, which is an area of competition, not what's fun and fluffy. If you get insulted by the fact that someone points out that you don't seem like a competitive gamer, then the internet isn't for you, as it really is nothing more than an observation; last I checked there was nothing wrong with not playing competitively. Either way I'm not going to debate the point further with you, because as I said, you just don't seem to get it when it comes to points efficiency (no offence intended but that's how you come off), so I'll leave you to your own opinion instead of wasting both our time.

Lucre wrote:and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

I've seen you post this every chance you have gotten since the Codex hit earth, and it still isn't becoming true I'm afraid. We have one of the cheapest Troops sections of all codices, and the choices are solid; not being Grey Hunter broken doesn't make them mediocre.

 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

Really? Considering that (a) Psyflemen Dreads haven't been the rage since 5th edition, and (b) trying to mimic lists across codices doesn't usually work, it's not surprisng at all.

Yes but considering the fact that Autocannons of any kind are seen as quite competitive now in 6th against MEQ and Hades Autocannons now shoot out 8 shots... at Str 8... Im gonna try this...

Also on a side note what is wrong with being "not competitive?" maybe im getting the wrong end of the stick here, but I think being "not competitive" or being a casual gamer quite awesome really, because it means you can have fun, anyway you like without having to be harassed with "you should play unit X with wargear options Q, Y and Z to stand a chance in this game", like I say I think Im getting the wrong end of the stick but what is wrong with being "non competitive?".

Chaos! umm.. Yay!?

I think the disconnect is that there are varying levels of competitive, and differing competitive thought.

Personally I don't see how taking an optimized point for point list is competitive. Or if everyone brought the exact same list and played mirror matches then you could argue it is competitive. Now if everything was perfectly balanced then yes I could see it, but it is not.

By taking an optimized list you are actually limiting competition because of codex imbalance. Lets say Grey knights are a 8 in overall power, and a necron list is 10. So a maximum optimized list for the necrons is going to be more powerful than a maximized list from the grey knights. Now if you wanted a true competition then you would in fact not bring a optimized list for the necrons as a balance.

I have been having good results with my two units of obliterators against everything but tau(see rail guns). I just acquired a forgefiend and was thinking about working one in. That would allow me to work in my rhinos as well, which has been a issue since I would have limited vehicles. But I think once you get 3-5 hulls on the table things become much more survivable. Also I take the defense line for that sweet sweet 4+ on the first turn.

Hmmm, I don't think I said anything to suggest I thought being competitive was bad. This thread is all about optimizing choices and points. That's not the issue I was trying to raise.

The point I wanted to make is that saying to somebody, "you are not a competitive player" is not a real argument. It's an "ad hominem" argument--that is, it attacks the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.

So if you want to say, for example, "Three helbrutes with AC/ML is not an optimal choice," that's fine, but you have to support your argument with some kind of reasoning or evidence about the helbrutes themselves (not about the person making the argument).

But if you say something like, " if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player," then that's not a real argument. It's just accusing the person of being "non-competitive," (whatever you decide that means) and suggesting, by implication, that the person's opinions are therefore no good.

So my real point is that all this talk of competitive/not competitive is kind of pointless and actually interferes with the discussion about chaos heavy support. And trying to shut down people's ideas by accusing them of being one thing or another is counter-productive to the kind of creative thinking that makes tactics boards useful. If you want the message board where there's only one correct way of thinking--that one is already out there, and it's not Dakka.

So I'm still interested in hearing more creative ideas about Chaos HS if anybody has more.

I'm waiting to try two Hellbrutes with the basic PF and MM set up as part of a small army. The third will be a squad of Havocs with Lascannons. I'm running a mostly foot list, so I am hoping that the additional support of two AV12 hulls running up the field along side my tide of 3+ will take some of the higher strength, lower ap shots from my vulnerable troops. I really think there's something to be said about this basic layout, and i'll be doing my best to figure that out in my next few games.

The Helbrutes are a nicer option now that they behave themselves most of the time. Also i don't think 125 points for an AV12 walker with a TL Lascannon is all that bad.

Powerfist and MM worked pretty well at 5 points more in vanilla mech marine armies in 5th. They can get cover behind the rhinos as the army advances and work as both anti-armor and counterassualt.

But there was a good article on BoLS a couple of weeks ago about how important 6th edition changes have caused problems for CC dreads in general--especially the way that grenades now hit them on 3s and 4s.

So that's what had me looking at the helbrute with two guns as a discount alternative to the forgefiend (and as an alternative that frees up heavy slots for other things). Shooting dreads still should work pretty well in spite of the 6e changes.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Powerfist and MM worked pretty well at 5 points more in vanilla mech marine armies in 5th. They can get cover behind the rhinos as the army advances and work as both anti-armor and counterassualt.

But there was a good article on BoLS a couple of weeks ago about how important 6th edition changes have caused problems for CC dreads in general--especially the way that grenades now hit them on 3s and 4s.

So that's what had me looking at the helbrute with two guns as a discount alternative to the forgefiend (and as an alternative that frees up heavy slots for other things). Shooting dreads still should work pretty well in spite of the 6e changes.

There are still a lot of units out there that want nothing to do with a walker. The multi-melta fist option is pretty nice. Although it isn't twin linked like most vanilla (vulkan) armies right? And it isn't a heavy support choice so you can still take your full complement of autocannon havocs or obliterators.

Having three solo nurgle oblits is pretty sweet. Since they aren't fearless and have low leadership you never have to worry about panic that way. Still decent firepower, cheap, and you can get extra shooting in your list with the helbrutes.

I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

I'm trying to work out almost that exact list as we speak (only with 2 fiends and 2 brutes). Only issue so far is that I notice I'm having to sacrifice upgrades for my marines and I end up a little light on forward scoring units. Not sure how much that would matter considering I'm almost certainly going to deny some objectives with that much dakka. If I get a list together and get to play with it I'll let you know how it went.

 Brymm wrote:
I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

Helbrutes arent bad, they can be mobile heavy weapons or they can do alright in combat in the right situations. You just have to have a very specific plan for them when you take them. They arent a, hey just put 2-3 of these in your list and it will be better.

Helbrutes will still wreck face against people using Lightning Claw terminators. S4 AP3 wont scratch it and terminators don't carry grenades.

 Praxiss wrote:
Helbrutes will still wreck face against people using Lightning Claw terminators. S4 AP3 wont scratch it and terminators don't carry grenades.

how many people use lightning claw terminators? TH/SS are just SOOOO much better

You've got a point, I tend to be a bit of wet blanket vs chaos.
I really like 13 point 3+ BS4 Bolters, but they need to be cheap to feel efficient that way. Built that way they aren't going to be winning too many assaults. I tend to think of it as being an example of battle sisters syndrome.You've got a unit that does something pretty well, but it's pretty cumbersome, it's only really going to be effective at one job and it needs to be big to do anything properly while still being a leadership liability. Kinda reminds me of SM but without the leadership reliability. I guess that comparison is because of the rhino size ugliness. You can build weird units that a good at different things and okay foot blobs but how exciting are CC meatgrinders.

Plague marines do MSU well, but it's not as if they are all that different in cost or survivability or output than most 10 man squads.

It's just that it's hard to have an lot of effective scoring units from this book... Well and have an awful lot else. Maybe I'm still living in a Mech MSU dreamworld.

I'm alright with how it's performing so far, but

But Back to heavy support. I am very much liking having a million autocannons as long as I have a couple of lascannons or meltaguns laying around. I wonder if it's worth it to invest in more AV saturation if your armor is all rhinos or in the air. I'm not sure about relying on heavy support for killing air, but I think it ought to be able to contribute some.

It's just that it's hard to have an lot of effective scoring units from this book... Well and have an awful lot else.

I was starting to think I was the only person who felt that way! lol

I'm not sure about relying on heavy support for killing air, but I think it ought to be able to contribute some.

So far where I am that's how it's working out. The Chaos Heavy Slot is really putting a hurting on horde armies but they tend to need an emplacement or the Drake to really go after air. YMMV of course ...

Hi - long term lurker here, I was moved to join and post because of this excellent thread. Good work all round people - some excellent discussion here.

I tend to mainly play at 2000 pts, and my preference for HS tends to be 2 x Defilers and 3 Obliterators - weighing in at 600 pts (sometimes I may upgrade to MoN on Oblits, but depends on deep striking/infiltrating role). I actually find that the re-roll on the Reaper Autocannon, combined with Daemonforge, is enough to take out enough fliers early in the game to swing things my way. The twin linked Plasma (or Melta if DS/infiltrate is viable to get close enough) on Oblits also helps - alongside the welcome addition of Assault cannons! 600 pts seems pretty reasonable for both the durability (having fielded Defilers in many games now the 5++ and ignoring shaken and stunned makes them pretty hard to shift, especially if you can place them in cover from main threats)

I normally back up this HS with either Chosen with 5x plasma and/or a couple of Helbrutes (for target saturation with Defilers), sometimes with T/L Lascannons for a bit of extra anti-flier or anti mech. The sheer intimidation of 2x Defiler, 2x Helbrute possibly with a Helldrake as well is enough to give most opponents pause for thought. That is a whole lot of AV12 and Oblits with their 2+/5++ are also hard to shift, leaving my CSM in Rhinos pretty much free to advance as they wish...

I actually find havocs to be okay, but easily targeted after the first turn, and just as easily taken out. Thats not to say they haven't got better, but they just always seem to die so quickly. I do however like the 2xPlasma,2xMelta in a Combi Melta Rhino build if I am up against daemons or tyranids (just point them at the right MC and they make their points back like that, and they kick out enough firepower to make multiwound units such as Bloodcrushers or tyranid warriors think twice). Also useful against Grey Knights if used carefully. I know many don't like to mix them, but 4x Str7 AP2 and 2x Str8 AP1 is pretty versatile and hard hitting enough to take down most.

I also really rate the Maulerfiend, with its 12" movement it can really help support a pressing, Rhino based force. 2x maulerfiendss can be useful when teamed with a Land Raider if flier spam is not an issue (which will your opponent target? If the contents of the LR are well chosen either option is wrong!).

I do like all of the template options for Chaos heavies. However I'm finding it difficult to get enough AA shooting if I go template heavy. Quad gun helps but you can only have one for most games. I haven't tried hades drake for hunting flyers but I may.

It seems that an ADL with Quad gun is a perfect pairing with a squad of Autocannon Havocks. Toss on 1 or 2 extra bodies to man the quad gun and you've got a reasonable anti-flier unit with a 3+/4++ cover save.

I do like all of the template options for Chaos heavies. However I'm finding it difficult to get enough AA shooting if I go template heavy. Quad gun helps but you can only have one for most games. I haven't tried hades drake for hunting flyers but I may.

That's just it though. I think the designers intended for us to be taking things outside of the Heavy slot in order to deal with fliers. From what I've seen so far (and realising that this is A. Anecdotal and that B. the 'dex is still fairly new), the heavy slots for this new edition are really meant for for throwing out huge amounts of dakka to knock out massed units, or to focus fire on advancing vehicles. While almost all of the Heavy choices can help with anti-air, non of them do it as well as the Drake or as reliably as something like an emplacement with a gun battery. It sort of forces you to think more about why you're taking something and what role you expect it to fill.

When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

Tycho - I agree that the codex seems to be designed to allow for AA outside HS slot if you wish. I actually believe the codex to be well balanced to allow for a variety of different builds. While this does not always work out for top level competitive players (although I think Huron and Heldrakes can help there), for most fun competitors or casual gamers this can only be a good thing. The HS slot options are perhaps the best illustration of this.

I also don't think any option really lends itself to spamming - even in a really competitive list (Obliterators may be the exception). balance does seem to be the key. Even the much heralded 3x vindicators option seems a little short ranged and relatively easily countered.

Still as a friends only tournament/casual player I may not be best placed to comment! I can only say how much i like the options, and the variation in design from pervious codexes - I don't like to be constrained by "this slot does this only".

I haven't had a chance to test it, but I would think a warpsmith as an HQ could make certain HS slots more viable (and they are pretty useful by themselves - especially in a small, deployment zone objective hugging squad).

Has anyone tried Land Raider/Predators/Troops all in Rhinos, mobile mech list yet? If so how did it fare?

I think a three predator heavy support could be interesting. Throw down the aegis so they are always getting a 4+ cover save and then just unload the dakka. Also reaper ML hellbrute sounds pretty legit. As long as you got the troops to back em up.

I could see a horde of zombies working well with a armored list.

techsoldaten wrote:
When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

I think oblits need to be within 24" then you'll have enough weapon options that you won't miss lascannons 50% of the time.

I keep coming back to a hades fiend for all comers list but the point cost scares me off.

 minigun762 wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

I think oblits need to be within 24" then you'll have enough weapon options that you won't miss lascannons 50% of the time.

I keep coming back to a hades fiend for all comers list but the point cost scares me off.

I like the hades fiends but I feel you need more armor saturation than I usually run. If you are gonna have a bunch of rhinos/other tanks/dreads/allies then they wont get picked off to quick but otherwise there are 175 points AV12 waiting to die.

So who wants to help me out with my current project
Here's my core so far. I'm not adverse to modification.

10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta

Drake

5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons

Company command squad, 3 melta guns

Veteran squad, 3 melta guns

2 vendettas

So far it's sixteen o'five. Perhaps some junk could be cut to make room for another troop unit or to ram some more ig or msu bike units. I think maybe one msu bike unit. Or I guess I could just use some silly juggerstar

I wonder if there is any use in psychic powers or a demon prince.

 Lucre wrote:
So who wants to help me out with my current project
Here's my core so far. I'm not adverse to modification.

10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta

Drake

5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons

Company command squad, 3 melta guns

Veteran squad, 3 melta guns

2 vendettas

So far it's sixteen o'five. Perhaps some junk could be cut to make room for another troop unit or to ram some more ig or msu bike units. I think maybe one msu bike unit. Or I guess I could just use some silly juggerstar

I wonder if there is any use in psychic powers or a demon prince.

HQ for the primary CSM detachment?

No idea. This is just the core I'm considering now.

Consider giving the CSMs melta and IG plasma since you have marine transports.

I'm really a fan of VotLW on both Havocs and CSMs but it's dirt cheap on havocs.

I'd also look at replacing a vendetta with a drake to increase you're cover negating firepower while still maintaining the same flyer count.

Well the idea behind putting the bs 4 melta in the jets is that they will be able to make the most of them. Plus plasma is something I don't want to use as a catch all silver bullet. It's good for marine battles but not amazing at everything as far as I've found. Six melta appearing out of the blue is something I missed from accurate termicide days!

I am excited about the thought of having more than one drake too. Might just do that. I might have to trim something though to have a useful HQ and 4 flyers. So far with proxies the unit of 2 vendettas is pretty okay. It ends up overkilling some of the time to be true but just as often more than just a vendetta was necessary to bring a fresh target to 0hp/w/force a test.

Still more scoring units would be nice. The vet upgrade isn't a horrible idea either, though I'd be hoping to shoot my autocannons at something more useful than marines.