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 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

forgefiends are 40 points more expensive than a psirifleman with a swap out of special rules. Sure they have a 5++ and IWND, but it is pretty easy to get cover these days and IWND isnt all that useful. GK dreads get smoke launchers, Aegis, reinforced aegis and prefered enemy daemons. Still those 40 points add up.

Beyond that they really need a babysitter. Assault them and they are mush, so on top of the 525 points you are fiends you then need something back there to help them out of assault.

minigun762 wrote:I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

That's cool, and good to know, as it clarifies that we are essentially talking about different things here. Your reasoning works for a solid enough choice, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an optimal load-out for a competitive list is all, as I am a competitive gamer.

As some friendly advice though, never confuse being competitive and being WAAC, or TheCaptain may show up to flog you

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

I didn't tell you you were wrong because you weren't competitive, I told you you were wrong because the evidence you provided yourself showed your point to be wrong, and deduced that since you couldn't see that, that you may be a casual gamer. And why would I present evidence when the evidence you presented yourself already disproves your point?

It is hilarious that you say the 525pts 'argument' is strawman. Firstly, it isn't an argument, it is a fact, that's what the unit costs. Secondly, you can't separate the points cost but use the full benefit for your argument; that is ridiculous and absurd, and yet you cry strawman about things that aren't even arguments; simply put your point doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially when you have proven yourself wrong in your own findings. As for proving that Autocannons are better than regular Missile Launchers, why bother prove something that many of the net's well known math-hammer lovers have done over and over again. The findings were conclusive; MLs are better against MEQ and AV14, Autocannons are better against everything else. I'm not going to waste my time going finding that mathimatical summary or redoing it myself, as I feel this debate is pointless at this rate since the idea of points efficiency has already gone out the window, not to mention that it should be plain to see (when the AP or strength doesn't matter, more shots wins, and in most cases the strength or AP doesn't matter).

As for what is and isn't competitive, that is all part of the discussion whether you like it or not, because tactics threads tend to be about what is the best option, which is an area of competition, not what's fun and fluffy. If you get insulted by the fact that someone points out that you don't seem like a competitive gamer, then the internet isn't for you, as it really is nothing more than an observation; last I checked there was nothing wrong with not playing competitively. Either way I'm not going to debate the point further with you, because as I said, you just don't seem to get it when it comes to points efficiency (no offence intended but that's how you come off), so I'll leave you to your own opinion instead of wasting both our time.

Lucre wrote:and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

I've seen you post this every chance you have gotten since the Codex hit earth, and it still isn't becoming true I'm afraid. We have one of the cheapest Troops sections of all codices, and the choices are solid; not being Grey Hunter broken doesn't make them mediocre.

 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

Really? Considering that (a) Psyflemen Dreads haven't been the rage since 5th edition, and (b) trying to mimic lists across codices doesn't usually work, it's not surprisng at all.

I run a Predator with autocannon, and 2 lascannon sponsons on the sides. Then a basic Forgefiend. I was thinking about going with the 2 hades autocannons, and a ectoplasma cannon, but the difference in range just didn't make sense for me to spend the extra points on it versus something else. I have a great time shooting at anything and everything with my forgefiend. Everytime it shoots at something it is either wrecking or blowing it up (minus flyers, but that is what the heldrake is for).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

minigun762 wrote:I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

That's cool, and good to know, as it clarifies that we are essentially talking about different things here. Your reasoning works for a solid enough choice, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an optimal load-out for a competitive list is all, as I am a competitive gamer.

As some friendly advice though, never confuse being competitive and being WAAC, or TheCaptain may show up to flog you

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

I didn't tell you you were wrong because you weren't competitive, I told you you were wrong because the evidence you provided yourself showed your point to be wrong, and deduced that since you couldn't see that, that you may be a casual gamer. And why would I present evidence when the evidence you presented yourself already disproves your point?

It is hilarious that you say the 525pts 'argument' is strawman. Firstly, it isn't an argument, it is a fact, that's what the unit costs. Secondly, you can't separate the points cost but use the full benefit for your argument; that is ridiculous and absurd, and yet you cry strawman about things that aren't even arguments; simply put your point doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially when you have proven yourself wrong in your own findings. As for proving that Autocannons are better than regular Missile Launchers, why bother prove something that many of the net's well known math-hammer lovers have done over and over again. The findings were conclusive; MLs are better against MEQ and AV14, Autocannons are better against everything else. I'm not going to waste my time going finding that mathimatical summary or redoing it myself, as I feel this debate is pointless at this rate since the idea of points efficiency has already gone out the window, not to mention that it should be plain to see (when the AP or strength doesn't matter, more shots wins, and in most cases the strength or AP doesn't matter).

As for what is and isn't competitive, that is all part of the discussion whether you like it or not, because tactics threads tend to be about what is the best option, which is an area of competition, not what's fun and fluffy. If you get insulted by the fact that someone points out that you don't seem like a competitive gamer, then the internet isn't for you, as it really is nothing more than an observation; last I checked there was nothing wrong with not playing competitively. Either way I'm not going to debate the point further with you, because as I said, you just don't seem to get it when it comes to points efficiency (no offence intended but that's how you come off), so I'll leave you to your own opinion instead of wasting both our time.

Lucre wrote:and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

I've seen you post this every chance you have gotten since the Codex hit earth, and it still isn't becoming true I'm afraid. We have one of the cheapest Troops sections of all codices, and the choices are solid; not being Grey Hunter broken doesn't make them mediocre.

 happygolucky wrote:
Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

Really? Considering that (a) Psyflemen Dreads haven't been the rage since 5th edition, and (b) trying to mimic lists across codices doesn't usually work, it's not surprisng at all.

Yes but considering the fact that Autocannons of any kind are seen as quite competitive now in 6th against MEQ and Hades Autocannons now shoot out 8 shots... at Str 8... Im gonna try this...

Also on a side note what is wrong with being "not competitive?" maybe im getting the wrong end of the stick here, but I think being "not competitive" or being a casual gamer quite awesome really, because it means you can have fun, anyway you like without having to be harassed with "you should play unit X with wargear options Q, Y and Z to stand a chance in this game", like I say I think Im getting the wrong end of the stick but what is wrong with being "non competitive?".

Chaos! umm.. Yay!?

I think the disconnect is that there are varying levels of competitive, and differing competitive thought.

Personally I don't see how taking an optimized point for point list is competitive. Or if everyone brought the exact same list and played mirror matches then you could argue it is competitive. Now if everything was perfectly balanced then yes I could see it, but it is not.

By taking an optimized list you are actually limiting competition because of codex imbalance. Lets say Grey knights are a 8 in overall power, and a necron list is 10. So a maximum optimized list for the necrons is going to be more powerful than a maximized list from the grey knights. Now if you wanted a true competition then you would in fact not bring a optimized list for the necrons as a balance.

I have been having good results with my two units of obliterators against everything but tau(see rail guns). I just acquired a forgefiend and was thinking about working one in. That would allow me to work in my rhinos as well, which has been a issue since I would have limited vehicles. But I think once you get 3-5 hulls on the table things become much more survivable. Also I take the defense line for that sweet sweet 4+ on the first turn.

Hmmm, I don't think I said anything to suggest I thought being competitive was bad. This thread is all about optimizing choices and points. That's not the issue I was trying to raise.

The point I wanted to make is that saying to somebody, "you are not a competitive player" is not a real argument. It's an "ad hominem" argument--that is, it attacks the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.

So if you want to say, for example, "Three helbrutes with AC/ML is not an optimal choice," that's fine, but you have to support your argument with some kind of reasoning or evidence about the helbrutes themselves (not about the person making the argument).

But if you say something like, " if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player," then that's not a real argument. It's just accusing the person of being "non-competitive," (whatever you decide that means) and suggesting, by implication, that the person's opinions are therefore no good.

So my real point is that all this talk of competitive/not competitive is kind of pointless and actually interferes with the discussion about chaos heavy support. And trying to shut down people's ideas by accusing them of being one thing or another is counter-productive to the kind of creative thinking that makes tactics boards useful. If you want the message board where there's only one correct way of thinking--that one is already out there, and it's not Dakka.

So I'm still interested in hearing more creative ideas about Chaos HS if anybody has more.

I'm waiting to try two Hellbrutes with the basic PF and MM set up as part of a small army. The third will be a squad of Havocs with Lascannons. I'm running a mostly foot list, so I am hoping that the additional support of two AV12 hulls running up the field along side my tide of 3+ will take some of the higher strength, lower ap shots from my vulnerable troops. I really think there's something to be said about this basic layout, and i'll be doing my best to figure that out in my next few games.

The Helbrutes are a nicer option now that they behave themselves most of the time. Also i don't think 125 points for an AV12 walker with a TL Lascannon is all that bad.

Powerfist and MM worked pretty well at 5 points more in vanilla mech marine armies in 5th. They can get cover behind the rhinos as the army advances and work as both anti-armor and counterassualt.

But there was a good article on BoLS a couple of weeks ago about how important 6th edition changes have caused problems for CC dreads in general--especially the way that grenades now hit them on 3s and 4s.

So that's what had me looking at the helbrute with two guns as a discount alternative to the forgefiend (and as an alternative that frees up heavy slots for other things). Shooting dreads still should work pretty well in spite of the 6e changes.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Powerfist and MM worked pretty well at 5 points more in vanilla mech marine armies in 5th. They can get cover behind the rhinos as the army advances and work as both anti-armor and counterassualt.

But there was a good article on BoLS a couple of weeks ago about how important 6th edition changes have caused problems for CC dreads in general--especially the way that grenades now hit them on 3s and 4s.

So that's what had me looking at the helbrute with two guns as a discount alternative to the forgefiend (and as an alternative that frees up heavy slots for other things). Shooting dreads still should work pretty well in spite of the 6e changes.

There are still a lot of units out there that want nothing to do with a walker. The multi-melta fist option is pretty nice. Although it isn't twin linked like most vanilla (vulkan) armies right? And it isn't a heavy support choice so you can still take your full complement of autocannon havocs or obliterators.

Having three solo nurgle oblits is pretty sweet. Since they aren't fearless and have low leadership you never have to worry about panic that way. Still decent firepower, cheap, and you can get extra shooting in your list with the helbrutes.

I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

I'm trying to work out almost that exact list as we speak (only with 2 fiends and 2 brutes). Only issue so far is that I notice I'm having to sacrifice upgrades for my marines and I end up a little light on forward scoring units. Not sure how much that would matter considering I'm almost certainly going to deny some objectives with that much dakka. If I get a list together and get to play with it I'll let you know how it went.

 Brymm wrote:
I think this Helbrute.talk brings up an interesting idea: you can run your heavy slots full and add more dakka via shooting brutes.
Doesn't a reaper/ml brute come in at 115? That's a steal!
If spam is your thing, what about three of those guys and 3 forge fiends?
Seems like you could do some pretty awesome gun line type armies that don't suck in close combat.

Helbrutes arent bad, they can be mobile heavy weapons or they can do alright in combat in the right situations. You just have to have a very specific plan for them when you take them. They arent a, hey just put 2-3 of these in your list and it will be better.

Helbrutes will still wreck face against people using Lightning Claw terminators. S4 AP3 wont scratch it and terminators don't carry grenades.

 Praxiss wrote:
Helbrutes will still wreck face against people using Lightning Claw terminators. S4 AP3 wont scratch it and terminators don't carry grenades.

how many people use lightning claw terminators? TH/SS are just SOOOO much better

You've got a point, I tend to be a bit of wet blanket vs chaos.
I really like 13 point 3+ BS4 Bolters, but they need to be cheap to feel efficient that way. Built that way they aren't going to be winning too many assaults. I tend to think of it as being an example of battle sisters syndrome.You've got a unit that does something pretty well, but it's pretty cumbersome, it's only really going to be effective at one job and it needs to be big to do anything properly while still being a leadership liability. Kinda reminds me of SM but without the leadership reliability. I guess that comparison is because of the rhino size ugliness. You can build weird units that a good at different things and okay foot blobs but how exciting are CC meatgrinders.

Plague marines do MSU well, but it's not as if they are all that different in cost or survivability or output than most 10 man squads.

It's just that it's hard to have an lot of effective scoring units from this book... Well and have an awful lot else. Maybe I'm still living in a Mech MSU dreamworld.

I'm alright with how it's performing so far, but

But Back to heavy support. I am very much liking having a million autocannons as long as I have a couple of lascannons or meltaguns laying around. I wonder if it's worth it to invest in more AV saturation if your armor is all rhinos or in the air. I'm not sure about relying on heavy support for killing air, but I think it ought to be able to contribute some.

It's just that it's hard to have an lot of effective scoring units from this book... Well and have an awful lot else.

I was starting to think I was the only person who felt that way! lol

I'm not sure about relying on heavy support for killing air, but I think it ought to be able to contribute some.

So far where I am that's how it's working out. The Chaos Heavy Slot is really putting a hurting on horde armies but they tend to need an emplacement or the Drake to really go after air. YMMV of course ...

Hi - long term lurker here, I was moved to join and post because of this excellent thread. Good work all round people - some excellent discussion here.

I tend to mainly play at 2000 pts, and my preference for HS tends to be 2 x Defilers and 3 Obliterators - weighing in at 600 pts (sometimes I may upgrade to MoN on Oblits, but depends on deep striking/infiltrating role). I actually find that the re-roll on the Reaper Autocannon, combined with Daemonforge, is enough to take out enough fliers early in the game to swing things my way. The twin linked Plasma (or Melta if DS/infiltrate is viable to get close enough) on Oblits also helps - alongside the welcome addition of Assault cannons! 600 pts seems pretty reasonable for both the durability (having fielded Defilers in many games now the 5++ and ignoring shaken and stunned makes them pretty hard to shift, especially if you can place them in cover from main threats)

I normally back up this HS with either Chosen with 5x plasma and/or a couple of Helbrutes (for target saturation with Defilers), sometimes with T/L Lascannons for a bit of extra anti-flier or anti mech. The sheer intimidation of 2x Defiler, 2x Helbrute possibly with a Helldrake as well is enough to give most opponents pause for thought. That is a whole lot of AV12 and Oblits with their 2+/5++ are also hard to shift, leaving my CSM in Rhinos pretty much free to advance as they wish...

I actually find havocs to be okay, but easily targeted after the first turn, and just as easily taken out. Thats not to say they haven't got better, but they just always seem to die so quickly. I do however like the 2xPlasma,2xMelta in a Combi Melta Rhino build if I am up against daemons or tyranids (just point them at the right MC and they make their points back like that, and they kick out enough firepower to make multiwound units such as Bloodcrushers or tyranid warriors think twice). Also useful against Grey Knights if used carefully. I know many don't like to mix them, but 4x Str7 AP2 and 2x Str8 AP1 is pretty versatile and hard hitting enough to take down most.

I also really rate the Maulerfiend, with its 12" movement it can really help support a pressing, Rhino based force. 2x maulerfiendss can be useful when teamed with a Land Raider if flier spam is not an issue (which will your opponent target? If the contents of the LR are well chosen either option is wrong!).

I do like all of the template options for Chaos heavies. However I'm finding it difficult to get enough AA shooting if I go template heavy. Quad gun helps but you can only have one for most games. I haven't tried hades drake for hunting flyers but I may.

It seems that an ADL with Quad gun is a perfect pairing with a squad of Autocannon Havocks. Toss on 1 or 2 extra bodies to man the quad gun and you've got a reasonable anti-flier unit with a 3+/4++ cover save.

I do like all of the template options for Chaos heavies. However I'm finding it difficult to get enough AA shooting if I go template heavy. Quad gun helps but you can only have one for most games. I haven't tried hades drake for hunting flyers but I may.

That's just it though. I think the designers intended for us to be taking things outside of the Heavy slot in order to deal with fliers. From what I've seen so far (and realising that this is A. Anecdotal and that B. the 'dex is still fairly new), the heavy slots for this new edition are really meant for for throwing out huge amounts of dakka to knock out massed units, or to focus fire on advancing vehicles. While almost all of the Heavy choices can help with anti-air, non of them do it as well as the Drake or as reliably as something like an emplacement with a gun battery. It sort of forces you to think more about why you're taking something and what role you expect it to fill.

When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

Tycho - I agree that the codex seems to be designed to allow for AA outside HS slot if you wish. I actually believe the codex to be well balanced to allow for a variety of different builds. While this does not always work out for top level competitive players (although I think Huron and Heldrakes can help there), for most fun competitors or casual gamers this can only be a good thing. The HS slot options are perhaps the best illustration of this.

I also don't think any option really lends itself to spamming - even in a really competitive list (Obliterators may be the exception). balance does seem to be the key. Even the much heralded 3x vindicators option seems a little short ranged and relatively easily countered.

Still as a friends only tournament/casual player I may not be best placed to comment! I can only say how much i like the options, and the variation in design from pervious codexes - I don't like to be constrained by "this slot does this only".

I haven't had a chance to test it, but I would think a warpsmith as an HQ could make certain HS slots more viable (and they are pretty useful by themselves - especially in a small, deployment zone objective hugging squad).

Has anyone tried Land Raider/Predators/Troops all in Rhinos, mobile mech list yet? If so how did it fare?

I think a three predator heavy support could be interesting. Throw down the aegis so they are always getting a 4+ cover save and then just unload the dakka. Also reaper ML hellbrute sounds pretty legit. As long as you got the troops to back em up.

I could see a horde of zombies working well with a armored list.

techsoldaten wrote:
When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

I think oblits need to be within 24" then you'll have enough weapon options that you won't miss lascannons 50% of the time.

I keep coming back to a hades fiend for all comers list but the point cost scares me off.

 minigun762 wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
When I do take a heavy support option, it's either Defilers or Obliterators. I want to start taking Laspreds, specifically to deal with very tough targets.

About once per game, there's something I just can't kill - Terminators, Tau vehicles with shrouded rules, Eldar with Fortune. Obliterators are good at dealing with them, so long as they finish their work that round.

It's really frustrating not being able to take lascannons 2 rounds in a row with them. Something more reliable would help.

I think oblits need to be within 24" then you'll have enough weapon options that you won't miss lascannons 50% of the time.

I keep coming back to a hades fiend for all comers list but the point cost scares me off.

I like the hades fiends but I feel you need more armor saturation than I usually run. If you are gonna have a bunch of rhinos/other tanks/dreads/allies then they wont get picked off to quick but otherwise there are 175 points AV12 waiting to die.

So who wants to help me out with my current project
Here's my core so far. I'm not adverse to modification.

10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta

Drake

5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons

Company command squad, 3 melta guns

Veteran squad, 3 melta guns

2 vendettas

So far it's sixteen o'five. Perhaps some junk could be cut to make room for another troop unit or to ram some more ig or msu bike units. I think maybe one msu bike unit. Or I guess I could just use some silly juggerstar

I wonder if there is any use in psychic powers or a demon prince.

 Lucre wrote:
So who wants to help me out with my current project
Here's my core so far. I'm not adverse to modification.

10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta
10 csm, 2 plasma, rhino with combi melta

Drake

5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons
5 havocs, 4 autocannons

Company command squad, 3 melta guns

Veteran squad, 3 melta guns

2 vendettas

So far it's sixteen o'five. Perhaps some junk could be cut to make room for another troop unit or to ram some more ig or msu bike units. I think maybe one msu bike unit. Or I guess I could just use some silly juggerstar

I wonder if there is any use in psychic powers or a demon prince.

HQ for the primary CSM detachment?

No idea. This is just the core I'm considering now.