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I'm going to agree with Minigun here about the ML havocs, but I want to suggest the idea of spamming them.

3 units of 5-6 havocs each with 4 ML plus flakk.

Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good. Havocs without VotLW and missiles cost about the same (personally I'd leave the vet upgrade off of small havoc squads since they mostly won't be testing leadership because they'll either be untouched or wiped out).

Then once you've paid for your ML havoc units, the flakk upgrade for 12 missile launchers costs only 20 points more than an aegis wall with quad gun. But it gives you 3 times the shots and 3 targets--and takes 3 times the firepower needed to knock out a quad gun.

Think about the armies that you see in tournaments. Some have zero flyers. A lot have 1-2 flyers. A few are real air force armies with mostly flyers.

With 3 havoc units equipped this way, you're taking down about a flyer per turn.

You never really have to worry about the flyers in the 1-2 flyer army again--just knock them down as they appear.

Against the air force army you actually have a decent chance, especially because these are mostly really Necron armies, where the AV10 flyers go down to Str7 flakk more easily.

Against the armies with no flyers, you still have 12 missile launchers for killing light-med armor, MEq and hordes.

What's not to like?

Flavius Infernus wrote:Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good.

Do your Havocs have ATSKNF or Counter Attack? Do they carry two hand weapons or can they split fire? Do they have Ld9 base and only cost 115pts per unit? You're making a shoddy comparison negating most of the facts, and failing at it, which is usually what happens when a unit from one Codex tries to mimic one from another. Quite simply, if you think spending 525pts to down a single flyer a turn is worth it, you are sorely mistaken.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Long fangs have been doing it since their codex release, and I don't see people complaining that long fangs are no good.

Do your Havocs have ATSKNF or Counter Attack? Do they carry two hand weapons or can they split fire? Do they have Ld9 base and only cost 115pts per unit? You're making a shoddy comparison negating most of the facts, and failing at it, which is usually what happens when a unit from one Codex tries to mimic one from another. Quite simply, if you think spending 525pts to down a single flyer a turn is worth it, you are sorely mistaken.

To be fair, it's spending 405 points to be able to shoot 12 missiles per turn, and spending 120 points to be able to add the ability to down a flyer per turn to the existing missile capability.

Ignore the long fang comparison if if bugs you and think about the value of missile havoc spam in the context of the chaos codex and the ability to build an army that picks you apart at range while also assaulting into you face.

3 ML havoc spam plus 3 hellbrutes with reaper/missile as a firebase, then add 1000 points of assault units.

Or start with 3 ML havoc spam and add ork allies--two chunky units of boyz, a KFF mek and a cheap unit of lootas for extra shooting. Buy your objective campers from the chaos codex and send a choppy lord with spawn up to the front.

Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

Add in some cheap bikes units x3 with melta spam, and I'll get on board with it.

I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

I'm thinking, though, that the advantage of 3 havoc units in this case is the target saturation. If you only have one unit of flakk guys, then it's the same problem that a lone quad gun has--your opponent knows he just has to kill that one target, and all real threats to his flyers are gone.

With three havoc units he has to make a hard choice between trying to protect his flyers by trying to shoot them all up (thus drawing fire away from your assault elements) or targeting your assault arm and giving up his flyers.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

TasadarTheMadBear wrote:
I think spamming Havocs is good, what if you gave one squad Flakk ML and the other 2 Autocannons. The ML squads priority would be fliers, if it doesn,t have any fliers to shoot at then it can still target other things. If it doesn't bring down the flier then you still have 2 Autocannons squads to hopefully finish it off.

I'm thinking, though, that the advantage of 3 havoc units in this case is the target saturation. If you only have one unit of flakk guys, then it's the same problem that a lone quad gun has--your opponent knows he just has to kill that one target, and all real threats to his flyers are gone.

With three havoc units he has to make a hard choice between trying to protect his flyers by trying to shoot them all up (thus drawing fire away from your assault elements) or targeting your assault arm and giving up his flyers.

Plus missile Havocs with Flakk missiles can still fire Krak and Frag missiles, making them reasonably effective against ground targets as well.

 minigun762 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

I'm not sure how much work that unit actually gets done though sir (The primary air concerned situation). I think rounding to the nearest one both the quad gun and the 4 flakks are accountable for (various degrees of) one hull point each for your standard flyer. You can reliably deal 2 hullpoints of damage to a flyer at range every turn, until something deals with your 5 expensive men.

I really hate resorting to Autocannon Havocs as the default here, but at the end of the day, is the ability to fire krak missiles and the 0.4 more glances vs air per turn
that flakk give you really account for the extra 60 points? That's a question for you!


Downing flyers is a very expensive prospect at the moment. I wonder what your targets should be for how many points of shooting to throw at it per round of shooting per turn. Flavius is looking at this in a way I really like, but I'm only feeling more lost for it.

Thank you everyone for the good discussion. It's refreshing and thought provoking.

Kevlar wrote:

 VikingScott wrote:
I'm a fan of plasma havocs in rhinos, got less effective than the last book with how mech got nerfed but I'm still a fan.

That and possessed Vindicators.

Why havocs over chosen? I mean its 15 points different, but you do get 5 attacks, +1 leadership, and an extra heavy slot out of the deal.

Because I take termicide or regular terminator squads for elite.

 Lucre wrote:



I really hate resorting to Autocannon Havocs as the default here, but at the end of the day, is the ability to fire krak missiles and the 0.4 more glances vs air per turn
that flakk give you really account for the extra 60 points? That's a question for you!

I agree that a single unit of flakk havocs is not worth it (too easy to kill), and that even two units is kind of borderline.

But the economy of scale kicks in when you have 12 missile launchers firing:

12 flakk gets 3.96 vs. AV 11 and 2.61 vs AV 12

12 autocannons gets 1.92 vs AV 11 and 1.26 vs AV 12

The odds reflect my original argument--an army with 12 flakk launchers doesn't have to worry at all about an opponent with 1-2 flyers, and will have a decent chance to cause serious damage to a flyer-heavy army. So in a tournament environment, those extra points spent represent a hard counter to certain enemy units.

Plus you're not just paying extra points to add anti-air to autocannons. Part of the extra cost is that you also get the missile launcher.

The chaos list is full of good value units that allow you to economize in other parts of the FOC without having to always take the cheapest heavy option.

Huzzah! More like ML Flakk Havocs!

I really need to work my list around to acyually include them, 10 termis are too expensive... not to mention noise marines...

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

But against MEQ and a lot of big MC the krak missiles far outperform the autocannons. AP3 is kind of a big deal. So you are paying more points but you are much more effective against some very common opponents.

Kevlar wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Spamming ML's with Flakk is not point effiecient.

Spamming Havocs with Autocannons and adding a Quad Gun gives you roughly the same odds for dealing with flyers and a huge weight advantage in shots for dealing with anything else.

2 units of Havocs with x4 Auto's + Aegis/Quad = 330

2 Units of Havocs with x4 ML+Flakk = 350

But against MEQ and a lot of big MC the krak missiles far outperform the autocannons. AP3 is kind of a big deal. So you are paying more points but you are much more effective against some very common opponents.

but against other MCs and Teq ML are useless. You are using your whole HS section on things that are nearly worthless against very heavy things in the game. AV14 and 2+ saves. You also are not very good against AV12 fliers or hordes(500 some points for 12 Str4 blasts istn good)

 Exergy wrote:


but against other MCs and Teq ML are useless. You are using your whole HS section on things that are nearly worthless against very heavy things in the game. AV14 and 2+ saves. You also are not very good against AV12 fliers or hordes(500 some points for 12 Str4 blasts istn good)

Err, krak missiles aren't as useless as autocannons against AV14. And you are screwed either way if your opponent shows up with terminators. You should have just taken the obliterators.

I think using a mix is better than spamming a single unit. It gives you a variety of weapons to deal with a variety of things. In the debate between ML and Autocannons, both are very similar and have a good chance of doing damage to anything they target (within their ability, ie no LR or TEQ). By taking one of both squads you can have each one focus on what it's really good at taking out. ML w/ Flakks can go for fliers and Autocannons can take out like vehicles and such. If either one needs help, or some major threat emerges (mass fliers coming in turn 2), then both squads can turn their guns to the skies and take it out. Next turn they are off doing there own thing again.

Flakk ML Squad cost -175
Autocannon Squad cost -115
3 Obliterators -210
ADL w/ Quad-gun -100
Thats 600 total points for plenty of firepower. Each has a wide range of targets they can hurt, but each also has something they are specifically good at taking out. ADL and ML would focus on fliers, Autocannons can go after light vehicles and infantry, Obliterators target AV14 and TEQ.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Huzzah! More like ML Flakk Havocs!

I really need to work my list around to acyually include them, 10 termis are too expensive... not to mention noise marines...

Okay this is really more of a response to our friend Flavius but I think this illustrates it pretty well.
This is my other big deciding factor in chaos heavy (or in general). Stuff gets expensive and your core units don't work well when they are cheap. The difference between 15 autocannon havocs and a full suite of FML havocs is about a hell drake. I try to take as many options that can do a good job cheaply as possible in this book (suicide bikers, spawn harriers and tarpit, autocannons) but even after that its hard to raise a family after covering your bases. I suspect I need fewer harrying and objective clearing units than I take but drake and the other fast or template options are all so fun and multipurpose.

I wonder if there is a list out there with 9 obliterators and 10 terminators.

i think all the heavy supports have a place depends on the rest of the army. however that being said i still think the vindi sucks

Flavius Infernus wrote:Ignore the long fang comparison if if bugs you and think about the value of missile havoc spam in the context of the chaos codex and the ability to build an army that picks you apart at range while also assaulting into you face.

3 ML havoc spam plus 3 hellbrutes with reaper/missile as a firebase, then add 1000 points of assault units.

And that's the problem, the value you are seeing just isn't there in the grand scheme or things, or at least as far as competitive lists go. Your example just proves that thinking however, as that is not a competitive list at all, and I dare say you won't see that on the tournament scene not to mind seeing it place.

Flavius Infernus wrote:12 flakk gets 3.96 vs. AV 11 and 2.61 vs AV 12

And here we come to it. 525pts to do that much damage is rather appaling. That is not good anti-air by any standard. I have to wonder how competitive someone is playing when they spend that many points to do so little. Even n casual play I would feel cheated. I respect that for some reason you are seeing the above math as pleasing, but that is objectively a bad outcome. It's effectvely doing that one thing that flyers really hope you will do; pay too much attention to them. There are much better things to do with 3 units of Havocs.

minigun762 wrote:That's a fair comparison, but we need to remember that krak and frag missiles out perform autocannon on the ground for a variety of targets. Then again if flyers were my primary concern, I'd rather take a single flakk missile unit and the quad gun for cheaper.

Frag Missiles pretty much never outperform Autocannons in a realistic environment, and Krak outperform only against MEQ targets, so no they do not outperform against a variety of targets, they outperform against one. As has been stated 4 Flakk missiles are not good at taking down flyers; the fact that you would make a bad decision for your own reasons doesn't make the option good.

minigun762 wrote:The point I'm stressing is not to get tunnel vision on the autocannon havocs at the expense of other options.

There's a difference between tunnel vision and acknowledging when one option is better than another.

minigun762 wrote:I don't plan on using havocs personally but if I did, I'd split the difference with 2:2 in a 6 man squad with VotLW. Make it all purpose and mix up my models some so things look less spammy.

In other words, taking the good option and the less good option, and making both of them worse. No offence but if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player. And that's fine, I have no problem with that, so as long as you don't serenade things as competitive that may not be. There's a completely different way of thinking when making a casual list and a competitive list after all.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Frag Missiles pretty much never outperform Autocannons in a realistic environment, and Krak outperform only against MEQ targets, so no they do not outperform against a variety of targets, they outperform against one. As has been stated 4 Flakk missiles are not good at taking down flyers; the fact that you would make a bad decision for your own reasons doesn't make the option good.


There's a difference between tunnel vision and acknowledging when one option is better than another.


In other words, taking the good option and the less good option, and making both of them worse. No offence but if this is your idea of a good solution then I am guessing you are not really a competitive player. And that's fine, I have no problem with that, so as long as you don't serenade things as competitive that may not be. There's a completely different way of thinking when making a casual list and a competitive list after all.

I appreciate your candor and position. I'm not a WAAC player by any means but I don't think I would consider myself uncompetitive either. I just view my army and the game through multiple lens and hope to create something that I can be happy with both on and off the tabletop.

For example, I do consider the missile & autocannon havoc squad to be a viable option. By combining the two choices, I have decreased the point cost of the all flakk option while still maintaining the equivalent AA firepower of 3 flakk missiles, so I am still better at killing flyers than straight autocannons. In my eyes, missiles and autocannons are both generalist weapons, so there is rarely going to be a target that I would shooting with one type and not the other, especially when the primarily role of both weapons systems is destruction of AV10-13 vehicles. On a non-tactical point, I think the squad would look better without 4 identical weapons as it helps break it up some.

Either way, I thank you for your discussion.

@Godless-Mimicry

It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
@Godless-Mimicry

It's one thing to make a reasoned argument supported by evidence, and another thing tell people they're wrong because they're "not competitive" (i.e. an ad hominem argument).

The 525 point argument is an obvious strawman. It's 405 points for missiles--which are useful whether there are flyers on the table or not--plus another 120 points for air defense. I think you need to establish that the missile launcher havocs are inferior to the autocannon havocs before the second part of your argument can be persusasive.

And please, lay off the "you are not competitive" stuff. Can we keep a higher level of discourse on Dakka please?

even with the IG allies tax of having to take either a small platoon or vet squad and a CCS(awesome units) 3 vendettas are only 390 points(520 with the TAX no upgrades) Much better anti flyer than 12 flakk shots and much harder to kill.

I agree with the allied Vendettas. If an army needs air defense and wants air superiority, its hard to go wrong with Vendettas. They are just the best.
But alas, this isn't the "anti-air CSM allies" thread, its the Chaos Heavy Support thread.
I've found that so far in 6th edition, I'm needing more "anti-tank" and "anti-infantry" roles instead of the ol' generalist type stuff I used to use. In 5th, I saw lots of razorbacks, rhinos and chimeras, so I used lots of STR7-8 shooting between missiles and autocannons. They did okay anti-infantry and took down the massed medium armor of the game pretty well.
Moving to 6th, the most dangerous piece of AV12 I used to fight was the Vendetta, and now that freaker flies! But I have seen a LOT less AV11-12 on the table and a lot more AV13 ala Necrons and even more AV14 via Land Raiders and such along with a lot more armor denial armies running no AV at all. The games where I have had heavy anti-tank and heavy anti infantry, I've done pretty well. I am leaning a lot more towards using Obliterators again due to this. I mean, when I want a tank dead, I melta or lascannon it. If I want troops dead, assault cannon/plasma cannon, there we go. If I want a horde dead, well, my Baleflamer/Heavy Flamer/Burning brands tend to take care of the problem.
I have found my AC Havocs to be underwhelming at best as of late. I feel like I am rambling, so I will stop.
Hopefully this gets the thread back on track!

 Brymm wrote:
I agree with the allied Vendettas. If an army needs air defense and wants air superiority, its hard to go wrong with Vendettas. They are just the best.
But alas, this isn't the "anti-air CSM allies" thread, its the Chaos Heavy Support thread.
I've found that so far in 6th edition, I'm needing more "anti-tank" and "anti-infantry" roles instead of the ol' generalist type stuff I used to use. In 5th, I saw lots of razorbacks, rhinos and chimeras, so I used lots of STR7-8 shooting between missiles and autocannons. They did okay anti-infantry and took down the massed medium armor of the game pretty well.
Moving to 6th, the most dangerous piece of AV12 I used to fight was the Vendetta, and now that freaker flies! But I have seen a LOT less AV11-12 on the table and a lot more AV13 ala Necrons and even more AV14 via Land Raiders and such along with a lot more armor denial armies running no AV at all. The games where I have had heavy anti-tank and heavy anti infantry, I've done pretty well. I am leaning a lot more towards using Obliterators again due to this. I mean, when I want a tank dead, I melta or lascannon it. If I want troops dead, assault cannon/plasma cannon, there we go. If I want a horde dead, well, my Baleflamer/Heavy Flamer/Burning brands tend to take care of the problem.
I have found my AC Havocs to be underwhelming at best as of late. I feel like I am rambling, so I will stop.
Hopefully this gets the thread back on track!

yes I was merely pointing out that perhaps one shouldnt look for antiair in the heavy support section.

I am really liking lascannon havocs more and more. I usually run them with a wound catcher, 6 men and lascannons. If i find a need for 13 points I might take them down to 5. But for 155(168 for 6) you get a pretty cheap long ranged AT. It can melt light armor without wasting too many points. Does great against medium armor, has a good chance against heavy armor and can even take out heavy fliers in a pinch.

I might not feel like a total dill weed if I ran one unit of flakks along with 2 of the autocannon sort and the defense line. the defense line would be doing a lot of work and the extra bodies near the gun in the flakk squad wouldn't feel too bad. what is that getting something like 2 wounds on most flyers per turn (flakk + turret) and then if you had room for a couple of dragons you'd be sitting pretty. Expensive non-core units though... and chaos's core is already pretty mediocre and expensive.

Then again I could always just ally with IG! 2 vendettas a vet squad and a CCS make for a nice addition to a force. Griffons are cheap too, but I think you already have helldrakes for that.

I was also thinking of running a plague marine force with full havocs a drake and then 2 units of full immortals in nightscythes and as many tiny harrier units as possible, then again this raises the question if tesla barges are better than havocs.

Tbf I am really surprised the new internet list is not a C+P mimic job of the psyrifle dread list for chaos and when I mean that I mean 3 standard Forge Fiends placed in entrenched positions with clear and good arcs of line of sight, then 3 helldrakes just because helldrakes... I mean I would take 3 Forge Fiends for that purpose...

You don't even really need cover for forgefiends. You do need something in the way of assaults though.

That list is something I'd like to try but it's like so many instances of 170 points that dont score or anything. Plus you have to think about all the things CSM really sucks at or the great units in other dex's you could take and try to fit in some of that before you go for crappy chaos HS slot number 3 or drake number 2/3

Hence why there is elites fast attack, and solid CSM troopers for that purpose, on a side note if there needs to be something assault-worthy just stick a unit of warp talons down with a good CC jump pack lord and watch as those gun lines are now BS 1 because of the blind rule*.

*And for the record you can make even more aggressive Deep strikes now because of the softer deep strike rules.