About a week ago I had an encounter that has been puzzling me ever since, and it would be nice if someone could clarify it.
Right before I went home on break I was showing some of my samurai orks to my friend when one of the exchange students from Japan overheard me talking about them. He approached us and went on a tirade on how my army was offensive to him. I just don't understand why. I'm not saying my orks are Japanese people, but that they crash landed on a samurai planet and decided they liked the hats and armor. I was trying to create a fusion of opposites with this army for comedy purposes. Could someone please explain to me what was making this guy so mad so I can try to fix it if I can. I don't want to offend people, I just want to have fun, but making people mad subtracts from my enjoyment, so I'd like to fix what I can.
The guy is just being a prick. Name your war boss after him and really get him going. If we have Nazi imperial guard players we can have mean-green samurai orkz'es precious . By the way I love the concept you have.
My friend a while back actually topped the Nazi IG. He ran a Vampire Count army with all the zombies having a the yellow star of David painted on them, corpse carts filled with ashes, and Nazi vampire lords. That is damn offensive, and yes I did laugh and yes I feel really bad.
But there isn't anything to really fix with your army. It's not like you gave the models squinty eyes and painted them yellow. You just put on a different cultural style of armor on. Some people want to think that their cultural backgrounds are exclusive to them and when anyone tries to take from that it makes them think they are being attacked. The problem sounds like it's with him. Just because I was born in America doesn't give me the right to chew out a British person for modeling IG with tommy guns.
I checked out your gallery, and as far as I can tell the only modifications are the armor and heraldry, which is just a theme as you described. They look good in my opinion, and are an excellent showing of Ork adaptation.
Unless there is an additional detail that actually is offensive (slanted eyes/buck teeth/bright yellow skin) or play up racist jokes in person,your implementation of Asian based gear is no different than Rambo IG, Mongolian Rough Riders, or any of the existing themes based on historical times.
Happygrunt wrote:I came in expecting another nazi guard thread, and was pleasantly surprised.
No kidding.
In any case, if orks being samurai is offensive than space marine crusaders are offensive, and they're an official army from GW. Meanwhile, samurai orks is, in fact, kind of funny.
snooggums wrote: I checked out your gallery, and as far as I can tell the only modifications are the armor and heraldry, which is just a theme as you described. They look good in my opinion, and are an excellent showing of Ork adaptation.
Unless there is an additional detail that actually is offensive (slanted eyes/buck teeth/bright yellow skin) or play up racist jokes in person,your implementation of Asian based gear is no different than Rambo IG, Mongolian Rough Riders, or any of the existing themes based on historical times.
You may possibly have no idea of how Japanese culture views the Samurai. Maybe we think theyre awesome, and they think they were dicks. I dont think your concept is offensive but he may legitimately be offended.
Of course, if they were HORRIBLE Im sure we would have heard about it. Everybody knows Nazis were beyond fethed, and you have to be pretty dense to promote anything related to them.
d3m01iti0n wrote: You may possibly have no idea of how Japanese culture views the Samurai. Maybe we think theyre awesome, and they think they were dicks. I dont think your concept is offensive but he may legitimately be offended.
Of course, if they were HORRIBLE Im sure we would have heard about it. Everybody knows Nazis were beyond fethed, and you have to be pretty dense to promote anything related to them.
They actually were pretty nasty. I remember when The Last Samurai came out, there are/were a couple of guys on here who are big into Japanese studies, and talked about how silly it was in many ways to romanticize the Samurai, who were protecting their historical privileges. Including the right to basically murder a commoner in the street for looking at them funny. Of course a lot of other historic cultures had similar inequalities and injustices.
d3m01iti0n wrote: You may possibly have no idea of how Japanese culture views the Samurai. Maybe we think theyre awesome, and they think they were dicks. I dont think your concept is offensive but he may legitimately be offended.
Of course, if they were HORRIBLE Im sure we would have heard about it. Everybody knows Nazis were beyond fethed, and you have to be pretty dense to promote anything related to them.
Oh I'm well aware that the samurai were probably dicks.every group of high born warrior classes starts out as dicks. knights were dicks who looted and pillaged to their heart's content before the church came up with the code of chivalry and brought all the knights to fields where they had gathered relics and made them swear on the relics to uphold this code. the samurai were also dicks until someone decided to create the code of busido to try to stop them from being dicks.
yeri wrote: About a week ago I had an encounter that has been puzzling me ever since, and it would be nice if someone could clarify it. Right before I went home on break I was showing some of my samurai orks to my friend when one of the exchange students from Japan overheard me talking about them. He approached us and went on a tirade on how my army was offensive to him. I just don't understand why. I'm not saying my orks are Japanese people, but that they crash landed on a samurai planet and decided they liked the hats and armor. I was trying to create a fusion of opposites with this army for comedy purposes. Could someone please explain to me what was making this guy so mad so I can try to fix it if I can. I don't want to offend people, I just want to have fun, but making people mad subtracts from my enjoyment, so I'd like to fix what I can.
Not being there, I can't comment directly on what was being said or what the other party's feelings were. One thing I can tell you from personal experience is that living in another country does make you more aware and self-conscious of how your race/country/ethnic origins are portrayed in the media and around you. I don't see anything wrong with your models but I did bold one thing that sort of stood-out in the your statement; the concept of making a farce of someone's culture doesn't sit well with everyone, especially people experiencing culture-shock and possibly being sensitive. You might think back to what was happening at the time and ask yourself if someone might have made an off-color comment like how the themed Orks would talk; possibly making fun of a certain accent or comments that might stereotype a group of people. I lived in Japan and my wife is Japanese and while this doesn't make me an expert by any stretch, I do feel that I have some understanding of the language and culture; Japanese people do not charge headlong into a confrontation; he might have picked up on a comment or attitude that was expressed by yourself or one of the people you were speaking with and made issue of the models; it being easier to criticize your toys than outright say "Your buddy made a racist comment."
Like I said, I wasn't there; I'm just trying to help by presenting a few other options than the guy was being a twit over some little plastic toys.
@Ascalam, I don't think I've ever met a Japanese person, even a Nisei (2nd generation) that didn't know what an Oni or Bakemono is...considering they're depicted throughout popular media and in every shrine and temple in the entire country. I wouldn't make this comment and then expect an exchange student to not know what they are; their children are generally not as ignorant of their own culture as westerners are.
They were at times pretty brutal, by modern western standards, but also in some ways gentler/more civilised at times too.
Problem is that we keep trying to view them through modern (and generally western) eyes, rather than those of someone from feudal japan. We can't help it, as that's our cultural/regional background.
The Europeans from that time period weren't exactly pleasant company either, and were lice-ridden and filthy to boot
'@Ascalam, I don't think I've ever met a Japanese person, even a Nisei (2nd generation) that didn't know what an Oni or Bakemono is...considering they're depicted throughout popular media and in every shrine and temple in the entire country. I wouldn't make this comment and then expect an exchange student to not know what they are; their children are generally not as ignorant of their own culture as westerners are.'
Fair enough then.
I have, unfortunately, but it's still a fair point.
Orks have a very oni-like look to them IMO.
I can see why someone might be a little annoyed (if they are being over-sensitive /in the throes of culture shock (been there) ) by having their culture lampooned. I think he's over-reacting though.
I'm Irish/English originally and my two cultures are lampooned all the time. I don't get PO'd if someone sculpts bowlers and brollies on their orks, or if their Eldar looks a bit Celtic
yeri wrote: About a week ago I had an encounter that has been puzzling me ever since, and it would be nice if someone could clarify it.
Right before I went home on break I was showing some of my samurai orks to my friend when one of the exchange students from Japan overheard me talking about them. He approached us and went on a tirade on how my army was offensive to him. I just don't understand why. I'm not saying my orks are Japanese people, but that they crash landed on a samurai planet and decided they liked the hats and armor. I was trying to create a fusion of opposites with this army for comedy purposes. Could someone please explain to me what was making this guy so mad so I can try to fix it if I can. I don't want to offend people, I just want to have fun, but making people mad subtracts from my enjoyment, so I'd like to fix what I can.
Not being there, I can't comment directly on what was being said or what the other party's feelings were. One thing I can tell you from personal experience is that living in another country does make you more aware and self-conscious of how your race/country/ethnic origins are portrayed in the media and around you. I don't see anything wrong with your models but I did bold one thing that sort of stood-out in the your statement; the concept of making a farce of someone's culture doesn't sit well with everyone, especially people experiencing culture-shock and possibly being sensitive. You might think back to what was happening at the time and ask yourself if someone might have made an off-color comment like how the themed Orks would talk; possibly making fun of a certain accent or comments that might stereotype a group of people. I lived in Japan and my wife is Japanese and while this doesn't make me an expert by any stretch, I do feel that I have some understanding of the language and culture; Japanese people do not charge headlong into a confrontation; he might have picked up on a comment or attitude that was expressed by yourself or one of the people you were speaking with and made issue of the models; it being easier to criticize your toys than outright say "Your buddy made a racist comment."
Like I said, I wasn't there; I'm just trying to help by presenting a few other options than the guy was being a twit over some little plastic toys.
@Ascalam, I don't think I've ever met a Japanese person, even a Nisei (2nd generation) that didn't know what an Oni or Bakemono is...considering they're depicted throughout popular media and in every shrine and temple in the entire country. I wouldn't make this comment and then expect an exchange student to not know what they are; their children are generally not as ignorant of their own culture as westerners are.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to say it was a farce. I meant to say as a concept it is completely opposite of what orks do, thus it is funny in the way someone driving the wrong way down a one way street is funny. I play the story completely seriously, and try to be as respectful as possible. and as far as how they talk, they speak in the hooligan accent of regular orks, except for the leaders who have screw in tusks to allow them to communicate in perfect gothic. honestly my source for a lot of this stuff is actually another exchange student who I'm palls with.
Sigvatr wrote: People who get offended by painted plastic miniatures with vague cultural implications should not be taken seriously.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I presume you don't see a whole lot of Nazi IG armies in your neck of the woods (due to such things, being, you know, against the law and such) so you don't see the associated kurfuffle that goes with them. 9 times out of 10 the person doing it wants to be an attention-seeking knob. I'm personally not offended by it (not a lot really offends me TBH) but I can tell you that is pretty much the exact reaction these people are trying to get, along with the hamfisted attempts to fit it into the existing background of the game in question.
Take this army for example (which also serves as an example of how people on Dakka have very short memories. Go figure). It's plastered with Neo-Nazi iconography and a couple of pastiches of some WW2 propaganda posters for good measure. What is the purpose of all of this if not to draw a blatant reaction from someone?
It's up there with female SM and Ponie armies. All are blatant attempts to troll the respective communities. It's just this one can backfire spectacularly if the wrong person sees it.
Ascalam wrote: '@Ascalam, I don't think I've ever met a Japanese person, even a Nisei (2nd generation) that didn't know what an Oni or Bakemono is...considering they're depicted throughout popular media and in every shrine and temple in the entire country. I wouldn't make this comment and then expect an exchange student to not know what they are; their children are generally not as ignorant of their own culture as westerners are.'
Fair enough then.
I have, unfortunately, but it's still a fair point.
Orks have a very oni-like look to them IMO.
I can see why someone might be a little annoyed (if they are being over-sensitive /in the throes of culture shock (been there) ) by having their culture lampooned. I think he's over-reacting though.
I'm Irish/English originally and my two cultures are lampooned all the time. I don't get PO'd if someone sculpts bowlers and brollies on their orks, or if their Eldar looks a bit Celtic
Oh yeah, I agree there may have been an overreaction on the exchange student's part; I've done it. I remember walking up to a Uyoku Dantai (paramilitary-ultra nationalist group) bus in Utsunomiya and cursing at them in English and Japanese with my wife (girlfriend at the time) running off because she was sure I was going to get into a brawl. These guys drive around in black vans and buses blaring things about kicking the foreigners out of Japan and respecting the emperor and it just hit a switch in me that day. Poor guys didn't expect some rabid foreigner to walk up and give them a tongue lashing and offer to help them along to the hospital with a few missing teeth. lol.
I'm not trying to excuse the kid's reaction just throwing out some ideas of how the altercation might have come about. I showed the OP's models to my wife and she was tickled by them and even suggested a more modern theme would be better since the bikes and make them bosozoku; roughly translates into Wild Riders and denotes bike gangs in Japan who usually ride around on the noisiest motorcycles you've ever heard (usually at 3am when I was trying to sleep).
I'm not trying to excuse the kid's reaction just throwing out some ideas of how the altercation might have come about. I showed the OP's models to my wife and she was tickled by them and even suggested a more modern theme would be better since the bikes and make them bosozoku; roughly translates into Wild Riders and denotes bike gangs in Japan who usually ride around on the noisiest motorcycles you've ever heard (usually at 3am when I was trying to sleep).
That's actually an idea my friend shot by me, but I don't think I have the GS and conversion skills to really make them recognizable as Bosozoku, so they're just the samurai cavalry.
Everyone is offended by something. You will never get to a point where you offend nobody, so there's definitely a point at which you should stop listening to every random prick who comes by and do what works.
Mel Brooks made a career out of offending people; I see no reason why you can't make an Ork army that offends someone.
Grimtuff wrote: Take this army for example (which also serves as an example of how people on Dakka have very short memories. Go figure). It's plastered with Neo-Nazi iconography and a couple of pastiches of some WW2 propaganda posters for good measure. What is the purpose of all of this if not to draw a blatant reaction from someone?
It's up there with female SM and Ponie armies. All are blatant attempts to troll the respective communities. It's just this one can backfire spectacularly if the wrong person sees it.
Some people choose a different inspiration than you do, so it must be trolling?
When I look at GW's website and see their inquisitors are wearing black white and red, with eagles and other iconography that is clearly derived from WWII Germany I have a hard time understanding the blatant assumption that basing anything recognizable as influenced by Nazis is trolling. Yeah, maybe some things in the linked thread were a little too close (flags with black icons on red circles on red flags) in my opinion, and knowing about the Thor/Neo-Nazi link could send it over the top, but that also requires knowledge of those movements.
My point is that someone who puts in months of good work into some oddly themed army is going to far too much work just to troll in most cases.
Not offensive. Might I add that of about 10 Japanese foreign exchange students I have taught, of all things, Asian History, 1 knew who Tokugawa Ieyasu was... So who knows how much the average student understands about samurai.
Pretty much this. Seriously, ignore the people that live to be offended, and game on. There are some things you could do that could set people off in the name of having fun in your hobby, but asian themed things is FAR from that.
If you take something unique to a race (in this case, Japanese Samurai) and associate it with something negative (in this case, Orks that are stupid, violent, aggressive and are linguistically challenged) then people may get offended by it.
Now, you and I know this wasn't your intent. You weren't trying to say that Japanese people are like Orks, and it would be a stretch for someone to imagine that you were. But surely you can see how someone might arrive at that conclusion?
snooggums wrote: When I look at GW's website and see their inquisitors are wearing black white and red, with eagles and other iconography that is clearly derived from WWII Germany
snooggums wrote: When I look at GW's website and see their inquisitors are wearing black white and red, with eagles and other iconography that is clearly derived from WWII Germany
See, now I know you are trolling.
I'm really hoping that you forgot a couple of sarcasm tags...
that's just silly you made your army because you like the style if any thing he should complement you on it but i wouldn't worry to much over it odds are some one will be offended by something you do no mater what if you stopped all of it you would probably drop dead after you stop breathing. now if you did a ork voice asking if you would like kong pow chicken with your sushi then he can get all anal all over you for a reason. bottom line cant please every one just ignore as$ hats.
snooggums wrote: When I look at GW's website and see their inquisitors are wearing black white and red, with eagles and other iconography that is clearly derived from WWII Germany
See, now I know you are trolling.
I'm really hoping that you forgot a couple of sarcasm tags...
Well, either your education was so poor that you think the eagle is a distinctly Nazi symbol, or that the colours red and black (as used by the studio in the Grey Knights codex as it pertains to Inquisitors) are distinctly Nazi in style OR you're trolling.
Not wanting to assume the worst about your education, I just assumed you were trolling.
Now, you and I know this wasn't your intent. You weren't trying to say that Japanese people are like Orks, and it would be a stretch for someone to imagine that you were. But surely you can see how someone might arrive at that conclusion?
It is surly that . Dude saw your models and though "yep army makes us look like retards" aka it is offensive.
By the way I think it is very funy how non japanise people say stuff isnt offensive . I had a friend who wanted to make an army that looks like russian spec naz. The customs officers at heathrow airport , thought he was an IRA supported and confiscated his army . they also had him in custudy for more then a few hours , till finaly someone called this ambasy to get him out . non of us though the army would be offensive to anyone .
I guess you could do armies like that for most countries .
You could do an Australian army and some bogan could get offended. Have them all wearing t-shirts, riding crocodiles, wielding didgeridoos and wearing thongs. Somebody would get offended. Although that is a bit offensive...
Alright. You could do a British army with ork redcoats, and somebody would get offended.
Sigvatr wrote: People who get offended by painted plastic miniatures with vague cultural implications should not be taken seriously.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I presume you don't see a whole lot of Nazi IG armies in your neck of the woods (due to such things, being, you know, against the law and such) so you don't see the associated kurfuffle that goes with them. 9 times out of 10 the person doing it wants to be an attention-seeking knob. I'm personally not offended by it (not a lot really offends me TBH) but I can tell you that is pretty much the exact reaction these people are trying to get, along with the hamfisted attempts to fit it into the existing background of the game in question.
Take this army for example (which also serves as an example of how people on Dakka have very short memories. Go figure). It's plastered with Neo-Nazi iconography and a couple of pastiches of some WW2 propaganda posters for good measure. What is the purpose of all of this if not to draw a blatant reaction from someone?
It's up there with female SM and Ponie armies. All are blatant attempts to troll the respective communities. It's just this one can backfire spectacularly if the wrong person sees it.
oh....yeah. I have to say the reason I made that army of ponies was because I wanted to troll my local gamers. It had nothing to do with the fact that I thought it would be a fun project and something to work on when I had nothing to do -.-'
maybe people who make these armies do it because they have an interest in the topic and would like to extend it towards aspects of their hobbies. true you will get the odd attention whore whos self worth seems to be propotional the amount of people who they can piss off but yeah whatever, your oppinion (short sighted or not) may (and apparently does) vairy
to mine
as for the topic, ok, orks as something culturally siginificant to a person may offend them but those people are few and far between but hey tons of people get offended over nothing such as me taking offense to gimtuffs over generalisationof themed armies to, as in your case, samurai orks
at any rate you shouldn't feel bad in the slightest about using them
Savageconvoy wrote: My friend a while back actually topped the Nazi IG. He ran a Vampire Count army with all the zombies having a the yellow star of David painted on them, corpse carts filled with ashes, and Nazi vampire lords. That is damn offensive, and yes I did laugh and yes I feel really bad.
I suppose as an earlier poster suggested it would depend on how you painted them. If you are going to paint the yellow with squinty eyes and with kamikaze iconography on the flyers, yes that would be offensive.
Sigvatr wrote: People who get offended by painted plastic miniatures with vague cultural implications should not be taken seriously.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I presume you don't see a whole lot of Nazi IG armies in your neck of the woods (due to such things, being, you know, against the law and such) so you don't see the associated kurfuffle that goes with them. 9 times out of 10 the person doing it wants to be an attention-seeking knob. I'm personally not offended by it (not a lot really offends me TBH) but I can tell you that is pretty much the exact reaction these people are trying to get, along with the hamfisted attempts to fit it into the existing background of the game in question.
Take this army for example (which also serves as an example of how people on Dakka have very short memories. Go figure). It's plastered with Neo-Nazi iconography and a couple of pastiches of some WW2 propaganda posters for good measure. What is the purpose of all of this if not to draw a blatant reaction from someone?
It's up there with female SM and Ponie armies. All are blatant attempts to troll the respective communities. It's just this one can backfire spectacularly if the wrong person sees it.
While the army you linked to seems to contain a fair bit of iconography which seems provocative in a irritating and vexing sense, I can't see the parallel with female and pony marine armies which wont provoke much beside a laugh or a rant from a fluff lawyer.
Pony and Female marine armies just irritate fluff purists, or those who can't handle someone taking the piss out of the game. That's hardly trolling in the same way as making a nazi-themed army that glorifies the most evil regime in living memory and mocks the atrocities they committed.
As someone said earlier, most of these nazi-themed armies are made for attention seeking, no matter how well painted they are. It's just boring, they all act like they are the first douche to think of it. There are so many diiferent things that could inspire an army but it's funny how often it's nazis that do, just by coincidence you understand, it's not trying to shock or be clever in any way...
Oh I know I could not get away with yellow skinned orks, but not for the reasons you would think: 1) yellow is a pain in the buttocks to paint. 2) their metal armor is blue, and their padding is a shade of brown that looks like the old leather head gear. If I was to paint their skin yellow especially during football season here in Columbus Ohio, I would be run out of town.
And as far as squinty eyes are concerned, I don't think ork eyes can get any smaller. That's probably why they have such bad BS, they can barely see out of the pinpricks they call eyes.
But I wouldn't do either of those mostly because they are in horribly bad taste. Their skin is green and their eyes are stock.
Sigvatr wrote: People who get offended by painted plastic miniatures with vague cultural implications should not be taken seriously.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I presume you don't see a whole lot of Nazi IG armies in your neck of the woods (due to such things, being, you know, against the law and such) so you don't see the associated kurfuffle that goes with them. 9 times out of 10 the person doing it wants to be an attention-seeking knob. I'm personally not offended by it (not a lot really offends me TBH) but I can tell you that is pretty much the exact reaction these people are trying to get, along with the hamfisted attempts to fit it into the existing background of the game in question.
Take this army for example (which also serves as an example of how people on Dakka have very short memories. Go figure). It's plastered with Neo-Nazi iconography and a couple of pastiches of some WW2 propaganda posters for good measure. What is the purpose of all of this if not to draw a blatant reaction from someone?
It's up there with female SM and Ponie armies. All are blatant attempts to troll the respective communities. It's just this one can backfire spectacularly if the wrong person sees it.
oh....yeah. I have to say the reason I made that army of ponies was because I wanted to troll my local gamers. It had nothing to do with the fact that I thought it would be a fun project and something to work on when I had nothing to do -.-'
maybe people who make these armies do it because they have an interest in the topic and would like to extend it towards aspects of their hobbies. true you will get the odd attention whore whos self worth seems to be propotional the amount of people who they can piss off but yeah whatever, your oppinion (short sighted or not) may (and apparently does) vairy
to mine
as for the topic, ok, orks as something culturally siginificant to a person may offend them but those people are few and far between but hey tons of people get offended over nothing such as me taking offense to gimtuffs over generalisationof themed armies to, as in your case, samurai orks
at any rate you shouldn't feel bad in the slightest about using them
my brothers wife couldn't get into space marines tile my brother made her a hello kitty space marine army then he couldn't get her to stop. its not always for the reason for trolling. you cant have fun at something afraid you might step on some ones egg shell if the guy tells you its offensive agean just ask him in what way it is then explain if you think he has a invalid point if hes still offended just ignore him some people just need to have a reason to be or there day isn't complete.
p.s. pony army sounds hilariously fun to play against.
First of all:
I don't get it. Some people on the internets must have acquired some kind of superpowers.
How else can they claim they know exactly what went through a persons mind when they did something.
They have no idea who the person is, what is his race, sex, age, religion, life experience, current mood, inspiration or any belief in general. They do however are able to pinpoint the reason for creating a theme for an army to a single word like 'trolling'. If I show you guys some of my miniatures can you tell me if I have night eating syndrome or my GF is pregnant? Eldrad would be sooo jealous about your divination abilities.
It's naked boobs on miniatures all over again.
Well, back on topic. OP, I really don't think your army is offensive. I really wouldn't mind conversion based on any iconic army from my country.
What you should do is probably explain how you feel about your miniatures. It's like naming your pet turtle "the samurai". You didn't do it to show different culture in a bad light, but because you like the creature and think samurai is cool.
You can't prevent things like this when you use images strongly tied to race / country / etc. You can however try to explain your motives to the person. If they are not meant to cause harm there is not much else you can do.
Either throw your minis to the trash or accept the fact that some people won't see the difference between various intentions.
Sigvatr wrote: People who get offended by painted plastic miniatures with vague cultural implications should not be taken seriously.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I presume you don't see a whole lot of Nazi IG armies in your neck of the woods (due to such things, being, you know, against the law and such) so you don't see the associated kurfuffle that goes with them. 9 times out of 10 the person doing it wants to be an attention-seeking knob. I'm personally not offended by it (not a lot really offends me TBH) but I can tell you that is pretty much the exact reaction these people are trying to get, along with the hamfisted attempts to fit it into the existing background of the game in question.
Thanks for the reply / link.
Please note that I said "vague cultural implications", your example is pretty obviously related to the nazis...then again, I wouldn't call it offensive either. First of all, the army is AMAZING arts-wise. The free-hand, general painting, composition etc. is top tier. Secondly, to me, it has a lot of comic elements e.g. Thor all over the place. It may be considered offensive if people really tried to imitate a nazi army...
People with pink marines / retardies do not matter much to me. They clearly disrespect the fluff and people who are interested in it. You correctly stated that they only want to provoke other players - and yes, that's a no-go.
Given the current case of "samurai orks", I'd assume we can agree on them not being offensive at all.
I say some chap simply must make a group of orky country gents. Tweed jackets, that newsboy hat, and can't forget the handlebar mustaches. I say someone make it happen post haste.
Also if you're not picturing me saying that in a plush chair with a fez on in front of a fire, well you are now. Just as planned.
For risk of being the only really dissenting voice out there-- I understand the offended guy's position, and think it's a bit disgusting to see people basically deciding for a minority what he's "allowed" to find offensive. It's basically privilege at its finest. Really the only person who can judge if something is offensive or not is the actual person being potentially offended.
In reality, when you start making armies that cleave towards history in somewhat satirical way (especially when they involve a traditionally disadvantaged or at least not advantaged group) you have to be prepared for some people in that group to be offended at it.
hands_miranda wrote: For risk of being the only really dissenting voice out there-- I understand the offended guy's position, and think it's a bit disgusting to see people basically deciding for a minority what he's "allowed" to find offensive. It's basically privilege at its finest. Really the only person who can judge if something is offensive or not is the actual person being potentially offended.
In reality, when you start making armies that cleave towards history in somewhat satirical way (especially when they involve a traditionally disadvantaged or at least not advantaged group) you have to be prepared for some people in that group to be offended at it.
How on earth do you find the samurai to be a disadvantaged group? They would be the definition of an elite group with significant advantages.
By the way, I define offensive as people using the words "for risk" in a post. By your defition, your post is now offensive.
Lobukia wrote:How on earth do you find the samurai to be a disadvantaged group? They would be the definition of an elite group with significant advantages.
I'm assuming he was referring to likening samurai to Orks? I wonder how the guy's reaction would've been if it was Samurai Space Marines (saw a pretty good conversion job in a WD issue some time ago).
Also, quoted for truth:
Kaldor wrote:If you take something unique to a race (in this case, Japanese Samurai) and associate it with something negative (in this case, Orks that are stupid, violent, aggressive and are linguistically challenged) then people may get offended by it.
Now, you and I know this wasn't your intent. You weren't trying to say that Japanese people are like Orks, and it would be a stretch for someone to imagine that you were. But surely you can see how someone might arrive at that conclusion?
From my own limited experience, Japanese people are a fairly diverse lot hailing from a culture that seems somewhat torn between old ideals and modern pragmatism. Peoples' mindsets differ depending on region, on profession, sometimes even based on what their parents did. Most Japanese, at least those who actually do maintain global connections, seem (on the surface) fairly open-minded and would offer a certain understanding, even if part of them would still secretly feel awkward about it. Japanese media make fun of stuff like this all the time, but that doesn't change that just like, for example, the US have their own versions of fundamentalists, there may be some who are a bit more "hardcore" about respecting their heritage - at least I have talked to one such person where I had to tread very carefully in order to avoid unjust offense (allowing me to continue an exchange that was quite interesting and educational).
So I think it boils down to two questions: Is the person truly offended out of a cultural reason? And if yes, do you respect said culture enough that any slights would be purely accidental, do you simply not care and it's all a joke for you, or would you deliberately attempt to make fun of something because of what it stands for? The answers to these questions would determine the possible outcome of the situation.
OP said that this exchange student "went on a tirade", so I kind of expect there was a bit of dialogue going on? What did he say? Did you attempt to explain yourself? Feels like that bit would be an interesting detail for this thread.
In the end, different cultures are different cultures, and Japanese society is particularly alien compared to, say, US vs Europe. One might say dakka isn't even the real place to ask if this army would be offensive to Japanese people, simply because I imagine a lot of replies here will come from persons whose contact with Japanese culture does not extend beyond some low-quality hentai they watched on the interwebs. "No offense intended."
Not samurai, but the Japanese certainly suffered more than a bit of prejudice during WW2 because of their nation of origin. I could go into it if you wanted to, but I didn't think discussing politics was the point of this board.
The main thrust is that only a member of an outgroup can decide if something is offensive to that group, and only for themselves. Being the dominant social group and defining what is acceptable for the outgroup (As we saw a bunch in this thread with the classic "I'm not X, and I don't see anything wrong with it, so it isn't an issue with X") is at the heart of the whole privilege argument.
If the example with Samurai is hard to imagine, consider this: could you see someone being offended if say an Orc army was done up with the stereotype of Zulus or other Africans? Can you understand how comparing a real life group of people with a fantasy group of subhuman aliens is at least a little problematic?
For reference, the latter army is one I've seen done for WFB before. I know the guy that did it, and personally think he's a decent guy, but I'd fully understand if a black person or someone from Africa got offended at a stereotypical depiction of Africans mixed with a bunch of stupid muscle-headed Orks. This is probably part of the reason you saw Savage Orcs and Forest Goblins lose their racial undertones of Africans and Native Americans in their latest iterations.
If you're looking for a good rule of thumb, I wouldn't make armies that parallel historical outgroups with what are seen as ugly, stupid, or subhuman non-humans in games. Also accept that people might find your work offensive, and own up to it when they do versus get defensive. Note that this is starting to become an discussed issue on some gaming forums (It's one of the commonly discussed topics on the grognards.txt thread over at Something Awful, for instance) but gaming culture like a lot of nerd culture is very, very insular so there's a bunch of victim blaming and defensiveness about the whole thing because "that's the way it's always been".
Ascalam wrote: I'm Irish/English originally and my two cultures are lampooned all the time. I don't get PO'd if someone sculpts bowlers and brollies on their orks, or if their Eldar looks a bit Celtic
The weird thing is, to quote the 40k wiki; "Some Games Workshop designers claim that Ork culture and military tactics are loosely based on that of the ancient Irish Celts."
So basically if you think about it a bit too much, the Orks themselves are sort of filtered versions of Victorian era English paddywhackery. (Large, squat, dim, prone to drinking lager and brawling, oh and bright green doesn't help.)
Being of Irish descent, am I offended by this? Of course not. I don't really subscribe to the notion that it's always someone's choice to be offended or not, but being offended at something in no way malicious is always dumb.The retail price of a meganob, now that's offensive.
Boggy Man wrote: Being of Irish descent, am I offended by this? Of course not. I don't really subscribe to the notion that it's always someone's choice to be offended or not, but being offended at something in no way malicious is always dumb.
Everyone is allowed to be or not be offended at things, but this idea that people get to determine other people's feelings/emotions is confusing and worrying. People get to feel how they feel, even if you disagree with it. FWIW, I'd defend your right to be offended at whatever offends you when you're the outsider. Being on the inside track of society and telling the guy in the outgroup that he doesn't get to own his own feelings is just a bit offensive.
Boggy Man wrote: Being of Irish descent, am I offended by this? Of course not. I don't really subscribe to the notion that it's always someone's choice to be offended or not, but being offended at something in no way malicious is always dumb.
Everyone is allowed to be or not be offended at things, but this idea that people get to determine other people's feelings/emotions is confusing and worrying. People get to feel how they feel, even if you disagree with it. FWIW, I'd defend your right to be offended at whatever offends you when you're the outsider. Being on the inside track of society and telling the guy in the outgroup that he doesn't get to own his own feelings is just a bit offensive.
I'm offended you find that offensive.
Seriously though, it's all kind of a gray area and I generally agree here. I wouldn't tell someone they're wrong for liking/disliking something, or being offended or not by something. It's just how they feel. It doesn't mean I have to agree with them either.
Personally, I find 'Dakkatanas' about as awesome as awesome gets. I'd also find a Nurgle army with beer bellies and vague allusions to Nascar on their banner hilarious too. The tricky part with 'different' is that someone's bound to get upset. The hardest part is letting them be upset and not letting it get you upset either if you really like what you've done.
Boggy Man wrote: ... being offended at something in no way malicious is always dumb.
Everyone is allowed to be or not be offended at things, but this idea that people get to determine other people's feelings/emotions is confusing and worrying. People get to feel how they feel, even if you disagree with it....
Yes, and if someone is not being malicious or insensitive, feeling offended is inappropriate and dumb. So we are in complete agreement; everyone has the to be dumb if they want to!
(Hell, I make it look easy, like how I'm prolonging this conversation for example.)
As they say in our friend's land, "kuki wo yomenai hito" which roughly translates as "he cannot read the air." Would it be appropriate to scream obscenities at someone who smiles at you? How about bursting out weeping and accusing someone of cruelty when they just wished you a good morning? It is VERY possible to respond poorly on an emotional level. Despite the hippie/hipster nonsense about listening to your heart, a person's feelings can and often will steer them wrong.
hands_miranda wrote: The main thrust is that only a member of an outgroup can decide if something is offensive to that group, and only for themselves. Being the dominant social group and defining what is acceptable for the outgroup (As we saw a bunch in this thread with the classic "I'm not X, and I don't see anything wrong with it, so it isn't an issue with X") is at the heart of the whole privilege argument.
There is a point where the group taking offense to trivial matters can be dismissed by others, which has no bearing on the group's feelings of offense. As I noted earlier, there is a line that could be crossed where it would definitely be offensive intentionally and the OP did not cross it by simply sculpting a certain style of armor on his army.
Obviously this is subjective, but the answers given in this thread dismissing the offended party are based on the fact that modelling armor without additional context isn't automatically offensive. This isn't Skaven with yarmulkes and curly sideburns*, it is a warrior culture (orks) wearing warrior gear from a period in history.
*This is the only valid example I could think of for a race and culture linked that would directly lead to offense, sorry in advance.
Having your culture shown as a bunch or soccer hooligans are never something to be happy about.
Heck I did my ork speed freaks based on biker gangs and its was fun and in character.
but then this guy prob don't really understand anything about 40K and orks and is just making a stink because he sees his culture being displayed in a negative manner.
either ignore the guy, or just tell his its a game and you portrayed your ork army as Samurai because you liked samurai.
A WW2 German themed army is not automatically an offensive thing. Its all about context and specific details.
The example of the VC army with the Jewish Zombies and Nazi Vampires would fall under the offensive catagory. A Nazi Zombie army itself wouldn't be, given that Nazi Zombies feature in a popular FPS game which shall remain nameless.
Something using Nazis isn't offensive, something with Nazis that references the Holocaust will be offensive to many people. And understandably so.
I find the idea of that army quite clever actually, and I do feel bad about it. Anyway, moving on...
Context is everything.
Perhaps the person in question is a descendent of a Samurai family, feels the modern protrayels of Samurai to be disgraceful, and decided to take it out on you.
Traditional Asian Cultures can seem very humorless, for lack of a better word, to Western Culture.
We find no issue with making light of our, or anybody elses, Heritage, and not out of any sort of disrespect either.
Asian Culture on the other hand isn't quite at that point and there are people of all ages that will retain an older cultural mindset. One that doesn't appreciate how their culture has modernized.
Yes, and if someone is not being malicious or insensitive, feeling offended is inappropriate and dumb. So we are in complete agreement; everyone has the to be dumb if they want to! (Hell, I make it look easy, like how I'm prolonging this conversation for example.)
Incorrect. You don't get to play the "I don't find it offensive, so no one gets to" to an ethnic minority, at least not in the civilized world. Check your privilege. (Overused phrase I know, but that's the only valid response here) Malice or not doesn't have anything to with the offense people take over things, and certainly not when it's a possibly racist portrayal of someone.
The OP on this thread was pretty obviously looking for a hugbox post (i.e. bunches of "It's fine, screw the haters" posts to alleviate his conscience), and after the piles of responses, I guess he got them. I just hope if he's reading he understands that some people aren't going to let him off the hook.
but then this guy prob don't really understand anything about 40K and orks and is just making a stink because he sees his culture being displayed in a negative manner. either ignore the guy, or just tell his its a game and you portrayed your ork army as Samurai because you liked samurai.
And what do we call negative stereotypical portrayals of minority societies/groups? Racism and bigotry. That is not cool in any way, intended malice or not.
Please be VERY careful with your language in this thread - it's remarkably easy to slip offensive slurs into conversation, and Bad Things may happen to your ability to post should that occur.
well I just had another run in with the Japanese exchange students as I was checking my blog in the cafeteria, this time a group of about six of them. they loved it they couldn't stop talking about my army of "green samurai oni with machine guns", and after they read some of my fluff there were some understanding of the references made and we all had a good laugh.
hands_miranda wrote: Not samurai, but the Japanese certainly suffered more than a bit of prejudice during WW2 because of their nation of origin.
Thats a bit of a pointless statement seeing as they fought against allied forces so would obviously suffer prejudice.
If the example with Samurai is hard to imagine, consider this: could you see someone being offended if say an Orc army was done up with the stereotype of Zulus or other Africans? Can you understand how comparing a real life group of people with a fantasy group of subhuman aliens is at least a little problematic?
The problem with this is that every race or faction is heavily based on historical figures or societies. I can see someone getting offended by your example but it logically shouldn't be offensive, as it would be just the same as if someone did a celtic themed ork army or a anglo-saxon. It seems alot of non-european descended people think that every white european is racist (which in itself is racist). There is an interesting example of this when the film District 9 was released, it depicted a group of criminals as being nigerian, to this a campaign entitled 'district 9 hates nigerians' was started, the campaign forgot to mention that Nigeria does have a massive problem with corruption, violence and organised crime, so it was not an unrealistic depiction, the campaigners only focussed on the fact that the film makers were white so using black characters in a negative light makes them racist (they missed the point that the film makers make most of the white characters look really bad as well).
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And what do we call negative stereotypical portrayals of minority societies/groups? Racism and bigotry. That is not cool in any way, intended malice or not.
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.
Yes, and if someone is not being malicious or insensitive, feeling offended is inappropriate and dumb. So we are in complete agreement; everyone has the to be dumb if they want to!
(Hell, I make it look easy, like how I'm prolonging this conversation for example.)
Incorrect. You don't get to play the "I don't find it offensive, so no one gets to" to an ethnic minority, at least not in the civilized world. Check your privilege...
All orks is equal, but some orkz' more equal dan udders! Cool, got it.
Please inform me when I can post in a thread where my skin color allows me to have an opinion.
BluntmanDC wrote:Thats a bit of a pointless statement seeing as they fought against allied forces so would obviously suffer prejudice.
Considering piles of innocent people were put into detention camps based on being of Japanese ancestry, but similar things weren't done for Germans or Italians, yeah, I'd say it was unwarranted. And really, having a "good reason" to have a racist policy is still racist.
The problem with this is that every race or faction is heavily based on historical figures or societies. I can see someone getting offended by your example but it logically shouldn't be offensive, as it would be just the same as if someone did a celtic themed ork army or a anglo-saxon. It seems alot of non-european descended people think that every white european is racist (which in itself is racist). There is an interesting example of this when the film District 9 was released, it depicted a group of criminals as being nigerian, to this a campaign entitled 'district 9 hates nigerians' was started, the campaign forgot to mention that Nigeria does have a massive problem with corruption, violence and organised crime, so it was not an unrealistic depiction, the campaigners only focussed on the fact that the film makers were white so using black characters in a negative light makes them racist (they missed the point that the film makers make most of the white characters look really bad as well).
Again, you get into very sketchy territory when you start making a connection between stupid, brutal, subhuman aliens and real world cultures, you get into problems. With regard to the actual army I put forward, saying you don't see how making a line between African tribesmen and orc(k)s is offensive when it 100% fits a very common stereotype/ethnic slur, seems to be willfully ignorant. P.S. - the reason lots of non-whites feel the way they do is because the West is still incredibly rife with white privilege and institutional racism at the very least. As someone who it's often considered "safe" (i.e. the slight draw I educated myself out of comes back when I'm around it again) to discuss things around, I also overhear disgustingly large amount of casual racism out of people. EDIT: But in any case, that's probably as close to actual politics as the thread should go-- I just think that an ignorant "get over it" position ought to be called out versus let stand. If you want to continue this, PM me where it's not creating a public issue.
I'll also say I expect many less people to have issues with say Eldar samurai, because Eldar are not considered subhuman. Maybe the trick would be to do closely historical themed armies with a more human or positive appearance.
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.
Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs.
Boggy Man wrote:Please inform me when I can post in a thread where my skin color allows me to have an opinion.
You're allowed to have an opinion, just expect to be call out on using your privilege. And effectively telling a minority to get over it/stop being sensitive is the height of modern privilege. Sorry if this is too "hippy/hipster" for you, but that's where modern society is going.
Kaldor wrote:Not all complaints of offense are legitimate. Go back to SRS.
SRS? No clue what this means-- only hit is seriously, and that doesn't fit. And again, why do you get the arbiter of what an outgroup finds offensive? I'm not the arbiter either-- my point here is the offended person gets to be, and all the people telling a minority to shut up about it are being truly disgusting.
What can you do? You can't please everyone all the time. I do theme armies and have used German names for my Traitor Guard before. I'm sure it would offend some because they are German and some because they had family killed by Germans. Clearly your Samurai Orcs offended the guy, but that is his problem and not yours.
The problem with this is that every race or faction is heavily based on historical figures or societies. I can see someone getting offended by your example but it logically shouldn't be offensive, as it would be just the same as if someone did a celtic themed ork army or a anglo-saxon. It seems alot of non-european descended people think that every white european is racist (which in itself is racist). There is an interesting example of this when the film District 9 was released, it depicted a group of criminals as being nigerian, to this a campaign entitled 'district 9 hates nigerians' was started, the campaign forgot to mention that Nigeria does have a massive problem with corruption, violence and organised crime, so it was not an unrealistic depiction, the campaigners only focussed on the fact that the film makers were white so using black characters in a negative light makes them racist (they missed the point that the film makers make most of the white characters look really bad as well).
Again, you get into very sketchy territory when you start making a connection between stupid, brutal, subhuman aliens and real world cultures, you get into problems. With regard to the actual army I put forward, saying you don't see how making a line between African tribesmen and orc(k)s is offensive when it 100% fits a very common stereotype/ethnic slur, seems to be willfully ignorant. P.S. - the reason lots of non-whites feel the way they do is because the West is still incredibly rife with white privilege and institutional racism at the very least. As someone who it's often considered "safe" (i.e. the slight draw I educated myself out of comes back when I'm around it again) to discuss things around, I also overhear disgustingly large amount of casual racism out of people. EDIT: But in any case, that's probably as close to actual politics as the thread should go-- I just think that an ignorant "get over it" position ought to be called out versus let stand. If you want to continue this, PM me where it's not creating a public issue.
I'll also say I expect many less people to have issues with say Eldar samurai, because Eldar are not considered subhuman. Maybe the trick would be to do closely historical themed armies with a more human or positive appearance.
.
So you say it is not ok to have an ork samurai army, but is ok to have an eldar samurai army, although the Eldar are well known to be a genocidal, self aggrandising race, who only care about themselves. The problem with you view is you miss the part of 40k fluff that shows that every race has a lot of bad in it, especially humans.
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.
Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs.
.
I don't know what school you went to but we were taught everyone is equal and a racist is a racist no matter what their background. To counter your interpretation, what would you call a derogatory statement made based on colour to a poor white person made by a Afro-Caribbean barrister? Racial hatred is still racial hatred no matter what a person's colour or racial group
At time like this I see how different the american or western mind set is from the asian one . You guys say that samurai orcs are not offensive [at least for you], but your not getting the fact that for a most people in japan there is no such thing as samurai no from Japan . It is a best a parody and at worse considered stealing stuff. And before you say funy stuff is ment to be funy , remember that all groups are ok when a member of it makes the joke . Stupid polak jokes told by polaks ? can be funy , told not by polaks the fun stops . the use of the N word is accepted or not depanding on your color . make some jokes about beans , pasta or pierogi while not belonging to specific national group and check what happens .
you dont even have to do that go to a bar or pub where your home team fans sit , in an opposing team shirt and talk about how bad this seson was for your home team . Check what happens .
So you say it is not ok to have an ork samurai army, but is ok to have an eldar samurai army, although the Eldar are well known to be a genocidal, self aggrandising race, who only care about themselves.
yes , because eldar are better then humans and being better then others is part of most asian ways of thinking about your race/nation. Orcs are depicted as stupid , vulgar and uncontroled . specialy the third one is a cardinal sin for any asian culture . breaking the order of things is the worse thing to do , worse then killing , stealing etc because all those can be made part of the order of things.
hands_miranda wrote: SRS? No clue what this means-- only hit is seriously, and that doesn't fit. And again, why do you get the arbiter of what an outgroup finds offensive? I'm not the arbiter either-- my point here is the offended person gets to be, and all the people telling a minority to shut up about it are being truly disgusting.
No, one person never gets to be the arbiter of what offends them. Or rather, they can but only the rest of society can validate that offense for them. For example, I could choose to be deeply offended by people with brown eyes. And that's my right. It's also the right of the rest of society to tell me I'm being stupid.
Not all claims to offense are legitimate. Sometimes, people simply need to get over it. Here's an example of a conversation:
"That's offensive!"
"No it's not"
"Well, I'm offended"
"Then you're an idiot"
And none of those statements are untrue. You see? An individual can have any reaction they want to anything. They can fear tissue paper, adore serial killers, or be offended by samurai orks. But that doesn't make those reactions normal or rational.
If you're not from SRS, maybe you're from Tumblr? Phrases like 'check your privilege' don't grow in the wild.
KtheNecron wrote: The guy is just being a prick. Name your war boss after him and really get him going.
I literally LOL'd at this. I guess I can see how he might be offended because they're Orks but honestly I don't think this is overly offensive. If the guy wants to complain, he's going to complain. If you don't agree with him then ignore him.
yes , because eldar are better then humans and being better then others is part of most asian ways of thinking about your race/nation
Gee, your description of Asians as a murderous, genocidal group that prefers other races die in pointless ways and often are caused by them is pretty Racist
For those of you defending the Japanese guy's sense of offense, kindly look up what the Japanese did to the Chinese people before and during WWII. Also look up how they treated prisoners of war and why. The Japanese as a people have no room to gripe about racism.
The background for this reaction is something like this:
1.) Before and during WW2, Japan invaded several of its neighboring states including China. They treated their neighbors as inferior beings and committed war crimes. So in Asia, they are still hated by some people like Nazis in Western culture.
2.) Orcs are the fantasy exaggeration of dumb and brutal humans, like Elfs are the fantasy exaggeration of noble and sophisticated humans. Orcs look similar to how enemies are represented in racist propaganda posters, esp around WW2.
3.) In recent political discourse, China used racist propaganda against today's Japan, like in Poland anti-German propaganda with Nazi-symbols has been used by the major nationalist party. So racist propaganda is part of recent politics, not just historical.
4.) Some Japanese are extremely nationalist. These are more prone to be offended by anti-Japanese propaganda. I guess, the first Japanese student you met, belonged to this faction and took your army as anti-Japanese propaganda because they indeed look similar in that context, even if your context is a different one (maybe like this: "I love Orcs, I love Japan, let's do Japanese Orcs"). Also takes some humour to not be offended
hands_miranda wrote: SRS? No clue what this means-- only hit is seriously, and that doesn't fit. And again, why do you get the arbiter of what an outgroup finds offensive? I'm not the arbiter either-- my point here is the offended person gets to be, and all the people telling a minority to shut up about it are being truly disgusting.
No, one person never gets to be the arbiter of what offends them. Or rather, they can but only the rest of society can validate that offense for them. For example, I could choose to be deeply offended by people with brown eyes. And that's my right. It's also the right of the rest of society to tell me I'm being stupid.
Not all claims to offense are legitimate. Sometimes, people simply need to get over it. Here's an example of a conversation:
"That's offensive!"
"No it's not"
"Well, I'm offended"
"Then you're an idiot"
And none of those statements are untrue. You see? An individual can have any reaction they want to anything. They can fear tissue paper, adore serial killers, or be offended by samurai orks. But that doesn't make those reactions normal or rational.
No I don't see, because that always allows a bigoted society to wash its hands of what it does. Again, it's up to you what you do when someone's offended about what you do, but using your privilege to shout people down for not toeing the line is disgusting.
If you're not from SRS, maybe you're from Tumblr? Phrases like 'check your privilege' don't grow in the wild.
No, I picked it up over at somethingawful. I have no idea what SRS is or even why it's relevant. Google isn't helping unless it has something to do with learning Chinese or Audis. I've maybe been to tumblr of a link a half dozen times, but I don't know what an art site has to do with the discussion. I get the feeling you're driving at something-- put it out in the open, don't keep beating around the bush.
Check your privilege is faster and somewhat nicer that saying "stop using your position of unearned social dominance to smugly dismiss people". I know the concept that people (including myself) may have started life on third instead of at bat is a tough one to swallow, but it's the reality of the situation. Again, this isn't a political board, so I don't think the mods want a discussion of the politics of it.
BairdEC wrote:For those of you defending the Japanese guy's sense of offense, kindly look up what the Japanese did to the Chinese people before and during WWII. Also look up how they treated prisoners of war and why. The Japanese as a people have no room to gripe about racism.
Under this line of thought, practically any nationality should have "no room to gripe". The Japanese did horrible things during the War, but frankly so did the rest of the Axis as well as the Allies, and that's only looking at the broad brush strokes of that conflict. All nations that exist now involved some amount of blood on people's hands to get where they are. While evreyone should be ashamed of that, it doesn't excuse the current dominant group from acting the same way towards them when the tables turn.
Pretty much every nation on Earth, past or present, has at some point been extremely gakky to some other nation. Britain and America aren't exactly beacons of tolerance and compassion if you look at their histories either
We're human. Humans are tribal. Non-tribe members are subhuman in the tribe's eyes.
If you don't think modern humans are tribal, find the supporters of two opposing football teams after a tough match.
Orcs are at least somewhat based on the football hooligan mindset (and that was really big in the UK back when 40K was born. 40K was based heavily on popular culture from that time)
yeri wrote: well I just had another run in with the Japanese exchange students as I was checking my blog in the cafeteria, this time a group of about six of them. they loved it they couldn't stop talking about my army of "green samurai oni with machine guns", and after they read some of my fluff there were some understanding of the references made and we all had a good laugh.
glad it turned out ok may you have no more problems like this in the future.
hands_miranda wrote: No I don't see, because that always allows a bigoted society to wash its hands of what it does. Again, it's up to you what you do when someone's offended about what you do, but using your privilege to shout people down for not toeing the line is disgusting.
Is it? Is it really?
So like, when I disagree with you, I'm not toeing your line. So you proceed to 'shout down' at me and anyone who disagrees with you, with phrases like "It's disgusting" and "check your privilege".
hands_miranda wrote: No I don't see, because that always allows a bigoted society to wash its hands of what it does. Again, it's up to you what you do when someone's offended about what you do, but using your privilege to shout people down for not toeing the line is disgusting.
Is it? Is it really?
So like, when I disagree with you, I'm not toeing your line. So you proceed to 'shout down' at me and anyone who disagrees with you, with phrases like "It's disgusting" and "check your privilege".
Hands_Miranda is the typical "raceblind" person who focuses waaaay more on race than the average person. They claim to be "open-minded", but only (of course) when it suits them. Some of these people are so "open minded" that their brain appears to have dropped out of their head!
Makumba wrote: At time like this I see how different the american or western mind set is from the asian one . You guys say that samurai orcs are not offensive [at least for you], but your not getting the fact that for a most people in japan there is no such thing as samurai no from Japan . It is a best a parody and at worse considered stealing stuff. And before you say funy stuff is ment to be funy , remember that all groups are ok when a member of it makes the joke . Stupid polak jokes told by polaks ? can be funy , told not by polaks the fun stops . the use of the N word is accepted or not depanding on your color . make some jokes about beans , pasta or pierogi while not belonging to specific national group and check what happens .
you dont even have to do that go to a bar or pub where your home team fans sit , in an opposing team shirt and talk about how bad this seson was for your home team . Check what happens .
The difference is (and this may just be how I have interpreted the OPs post) that he isnt claiming they are samurai orks. They are orks who landed on a feudal Japanese like world, killed some samurai in the war and thought their gear was cool. I dont see anything offensive in that. He isnt saying samurai are like orks, nor is he saying orks are like samurai. So I would say this army isn't any more offensive then the entire ethnically themed IG regiments.
hands_miranda wrote: No I don't see, because that always allows a bigoted society to wash its hands of what it does. Again, it's up to you what you do when someone's offended about what you do, but using your privilege to shout people down for not toeing the line is disgusting.
Is it? Is it really?
So like, when I disagree with you, I'm not toeing your line. So you proceed to 'shout down' at me and anyone who disagrees with you, with phrases like "It's disgusting" and "check your privilege".
And that, people, is irony.
You're not accounting for the difference in power between groups. Not acknowledging that that there are unwritten and unaccounted for advantages (is that a better term than privilege for you?) while having some limited level of de jure equality is what you're intentionally not seeing. Again, I feel like I have to bring stuff up with one hand tied behind my back because I'm pretty sure I'll be modded out of existence if I don't.
Never did SRS, but have read the reddit thread on SA a bit. You actually think the people bringing up and calling out all that awful misogyny and racism are the bad guys? It's like up is down for you.
Makumba wrote: At time like this I see how different the american or western mind set is from the asian one . You guys say that samurai orcs are not offensive [at least for you], but your not getting the fact that for a most people in japan there is no such thing as samurai no from Japan . It is a best a parody and at worse considered stealing stuff. And before you say funy stuff is ment to be funy , remember that all groups are ok when a member of it makes the joke . Stupid polak jokes told by polaks ? can be funy , told not by polaks the fun stops . the use of the N word is accepted or not depanding on your color . make some jokes about beans , pasta or pierogi while not belonging to specific national group and check what happens .
you dont even have to do that go to a bar or pub where your home team fans sit , in an opposing team shirt and talk about how bad this seson was for your home team . Check what happens .
The difference is (and this may just be how I have interpreted the OPs post) that he isnt claiming they are samurai orks. They are orks who landed on a feudal Japanese like world, killed some samurai in the war and thought their gear was cool. I dont see anything offensive in that. He isnt saying samurai are like orks, nor is he saying orks are like samurai. So I would say this army isn't any more offensive then the entire ethnically themed IG regiments.
thank you sir, my friends like to say my army is anime fan orks instead of samurai orks, and they are kind of right. the orks appropriated another culture and didn't quite capture the nuances of it, creating a kind of theme park version.
Hands_Miranda is the typical "raceblind" person who focuses waaaay more on race than the average person. They claim to be "open-minded", but only (of course) when it suits them. Some of these people are so "open minded" that their brain appears to have dropped out of their head!
I don't claim to be colorblind, because we don't have an equal society by a long shot yet, at least not in my country. Do you complain that gay rights activists are focused on LBGT status or feminists are focused on gender too? You have to consider race when you're dealing with the problem of trying to fix a race issue. The reason "most people" (i.e. most people you know) don't think about race is because we've forcibly pushed the matter beneath the surface, just like class issues. The fact that many of them are helped along by the unwritten bias of society is a big factor too. And shockingly, it's all very much to the benefit of those currently on top.
Seriously, grow up and learn that society is moving into the 21st century and that minorities of all kinds (race, gender, sexual orientation, ect.) actually get have a say at table at times even when you don't want them to. I'm also done with this thread unless a mod is willing to allow me a actually say something back-- I have a feeling that I'm being goaded over a line to get banned.
trust me I understand race issues, and I've seen firsthand some cases of institutional racism that still exist here. for example: my uncle's housekeeper was a doctor in the Congo, she's an amazing doctor and knows how to treat serious medical issues with basic herbs (and not that new age stuff, I'm talking plants with active ingredients that science has yet to explore, but the locals know all about their medicinal properties). She's got some serious experience working under pressure, having on one occasion delivered a baby while under fire from rebels. I'd rather have her as my doctor than some resident. but you know what: her degree isn't recognized here, despite the fact that she has some amazing skills. so here in the USA she's a housekeeper. she still gets to use her skills now and again whenever my uncle who is a doctor has a case that he just can't solve. she's his secret weapon.
Legion of Flame wrote: You could do an Australian army and some bogan could get offended. Have them all wearing t-shirts, riding crocodiles, wielding didgeridoos and wearing thongs. Somebody would get offended.
I've just read this entire thread - the main thing I need now is something else to think about. Because thongs aren't the same in the uk, now I can't get that image out of my head. That's an offensive image
So yeah - (as above) people are allowed to choose what they find offensive. In exactly the same was as we also can choose to not be offended. If someone finds your army offensive then it's up to them. If you explain why you've done it and they are still offended then just...either apologise or move on.
I'm christian, english and white - if someone made an ork army using those ideas, I wouldn't find it offensive, but I know people that would. So I just wouldn't tell them.
I don't think its offensive at all. Its more of a tribute to the samurai I'd say. I have a lot of japanese in japan, and I'd think they would find the concept laughable
Let me go on to add that your orks are not japanese, they are samurai. In other words, I could be a samurai and still be my non-japanese hertitage. Maka sence?
Let me add another thing lol. Your gana get a lot of opinions about this subject. In the end, its your choice. But no matter what you do, learning forms of discretion and tact would be key. If you think something MIGHT be offensive, best not to show it at all
Hands_Miranda is the typical "raceblind" person who focuses waaaay more on race than the average person. They claim to be "open-minded", but only (of course) when it suits them. Some of these people are so "open minded" that their brain appears to have dropped out of their head!
I don't claim to be colorblind, because we don't have an equal society by a long shot yet, at least not in my country. Do you complain that gay rights activists are focused on LBGT status or feminists are focused on gender too? You have to consider race when you're dealing with the problem of trying to fix a race issue. The reason "most people" (i.e. most people you know) don't think about race is because we've forcibly pushed the matter beneath the surface, just like class issues. The fact that many of them are helped along by the unwritten bias of society is a big factor too. And shockingly, it's all very much to the benefit of those currently on top.
This is a good video about Morgan Freeman's thoughts on Black History Month. Coincidentally, I hold the same views about this matter as he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s
Also I don't really care about LBGT since it doesn't affect me. Most people think that modern-day Feminists are insane (which they are), so I don't let them rustle my jimmies.
I don't let the race or creed of someone cloud my judgments when I deal with them, unless they start spouting nonsense like you.
Seriously, grow up and learn that society is moving into the 21st century and that minorities of all kinds (race, gender, sexual orientation, ect.) actually get have a say at table at times even when you don't want them to.
Me? Grow up? Hahaha
See the problem is the more you focus on these groups being minorities and weaker, the more they'll stay that way. Obama didn't become president because of affirmative action. Colin Powell didn't get to where he was because people were concerned about his race.
I'm also done with this thread unless a mod is willing to allow me a actually say something back-- I have a feeling that I'm being goaded over a line to get banned.
Oh don't worry, you're doing that yourself. Nobody's goading you, you're just overreacting and making this heated.
Guilty as charged on both counts, but at least I have a defense for not having them painted: I can't undercoat them here, I have nowhere to spray them, and I'm too lazy to under coat them by hand. but I'll try to get the ones that I got undercoated over thanksgiving painted sometime this weekend. also with dead week here coming up I should have a lot of time on my hands, I'll try to get the two thirty man boyz mobs that are half painted at this point done and ready.
yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted
EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek
Automatically Appended Next Post: hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday
Accounting is an ableist term. Some of us have trouble with numbers and your casual use of this word only reinforces societal stereotypes and bias. You need to check your numbered privilege.
The idea that people get to determine what is offensive or not offensive is confusing and worrying. People get to understand what is offensive or not as they grow up, and someone throwing them for a loop with something most people do not find offensive is ridiculous. I'd defend your right to be offended or not, but I might try to talk you down from it, or at least understand where you're coming from to get a better understanding before I disregard it. But I see a lot of people get offended at nothing all the time, and I am not going to worry about people getting offended at the drop of a hat by something that is not meant offensively. Obviously, you have to guage things, but basing an army off of something nobody finds offensive should not be offensive. Basing it off racist caricatures would be completely different. I'm of English/Irish descent. Let's see, orks in general speak guttural Cockney, or something similar and as a previous poster suggested, are meant to represent Irish caricatures. Am I offended? No.
yeri wrote: yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted
EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek
Automatically Appended Next Post: hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday
Great story! I would probably be saying otherwise had you actually hit him but this was hilarious. (feel free to call me a bad person if you feel that reaction is inappropriate but I wont lie) The fact that you were able to come back with a similarly ridiculous (and true no less) claim makes the story, definitely tell your kids about this one.
Ok. I glossed over "anime Orks" and I can't get the images of Orks dragging around swords too big to lift, trying to punch through armored hulls because they believe they can, trying to drills as close combat weapons, and finally trying to make a gunsword (Dakka-Choppy) and blowing their hands to bits.
Valhalla130 wrote: I'd defend your right to be offended or not, but I might try to talk you down from it, or at least understand where you're coming from to get a better understanding before I disregard it. But I see a lot of people get offended at nothing all the time, and I am not going to worry about people getting offended at the drop of a hat by something that is not meant offensively.
Exalted as the clearest explanation that many people can understand why someone else is offended and still disagree on whether it is worth changing to meet that person's expectations because of a difference in opinion on whether the offense really matters.
Savageconvoy wrote: Ok. I glossed over "anime Orks" and I can't get the images of Orks dragging around swords too big to lift, trying to punch through armored hulls because they believe they can, trying to drills as close combat weapons, and finally trying to make a gunsword (Dakka-Choppy) and blowing their hands to bits.
of course with the WAAAGH field all those thing become probable if enough orks believe it to be so. I refer you to the story in my blog where Prince Yamamoto describes his sword as making him "Invincible" because of a saint's thumb bone in it, he's at least got the effect right, but not the cause.
yeri wrote: yes but comedy makes for the most palatable honesty. and I do need to get these guys painted
EDIT: just remembered why I don't paint my guys here either. this broom closet I call a dorm room only has one place to put a desk, and it's not a good desk to paint on. gives me a back ache every time I try to get anything substantial done. had to use a heating pad after I tried to paint my big mek
Automatically Appended Next Post: hey I ran into the first guy again, and I finally figured out what his problem was: he's one of those uyoku dantai guys, and apparently a serious hothead according to the other exchange students. he read about my grandpa's experience with kamikazes on another thread over my shoulder in the cafeteria, and he was not amused in the least bit. he is apparently from a samurai family and socks me in the back of the head claiming it is his right of Kiri-sute gomen. one of my new Japanese friends told me what Kiri-sute gomen is, and I decided that if he was going to pull ancestral rank, then so was I. in an act that would make Arigorn applaud I announced for the entire cafeteria to hear my lineage back to William the Conqueror and declared that I was of noble blood equal if not greater than his (true by the way, I can trace my lineage back to William the Conqueror through the house of Lancaster and the house of Plantagenet thanks to my grandma's pet project of researching her family tree). well he starts smirking and challenges me to Ketto, which I accept, and seeing as we are on American soil, American dueling rules apply (the challenged gets to pick the weapon, I picked bare hands) he never laid a finger on me, I was too quick, but I didn't lay a finger on him either. I just wore him out while campus security came to break it up. I swear I'm going to be telling my kids about this one someday
Great story! I would probably be saying otherwise had you actually hit him but this was hilarious. (feel free to call me a bad person if you feel that reaction is inappropriate but I wont lie) The fact that you were able to come back with a similarly ridiculous (and true no less) claim makes the story, definitely tell your kids about this one.
I just realized something: the second he allowed American dueling rules, allowing me to pick the method of duel, I should have yanked the guy's chain even more by declaring the weapons to be: "children's card games on motorcycles" but at the time I was channeling Bruce Lee in this scene:
BluntmanDC wrote:
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.
Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs
This is probably the most rediculous statement i have read on this forum in a 'is this offensive thread'. By this arguement you believe that if a white person made this army in a majority white country he would be rasist, but if the same white person made the army in japan (where he would be a minority) he wouldn't be racist, he would just be 'fighting the man'.
BluntmanDC wrote:
The problems with this is:
If a 'minority' person made an negative stereotypical remark about a white european it would still be racist and bigotry.
Other cultures, no matter how small, have a 'bad' side, for example, Zulus, a group of people under continual pressure by the goverment look down on tribes that do not own cattle and will use watering holes used by bushmen for their cattle effectivly making it unuseable for the bushmen.
Just going from the sociology stuff I did in school, this is wrong. The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality. Also, it's missing the idea that power is relative to a society (i.e. who has power in a society and thus who has privilege is relative.) But that's not a discussion really for a gaming forum. The discussion should be back with the point that those in power don't get to decide what is offensive for those in an outgroup. My suggestions are good ones, but if someone's doesn't like your stereotypical protrayal of their race/country, it's your problem, not theirs
This is probably the most rediculous statement i have read on this forum in a 'is this offensive thread'. By this arguement you believe that if a white person made this army in a majority white country he would be rasist, but if the same white person made the army in japan (where he would be a minority) he wouldn't be racist, he would just be 'fighting the man'.
Haha yeah basically. Although I'm expecting the same person to reply, "oh but if they're white they're ALWAYS racist!". So no matter what you lose.
Also I'd like to bring to attention this statement:
The outgroup hating back isn't normally considered racism because of the power inequality.
That's just wrong. So very wrong. Racism is racism no matter what. But of course, if hands_miranda must be right if he/she learned it in a sociology class with a bleeding heart liberal professor who hates him/herself! That's the only way!
I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.
I don't believe you created the army with any malicious intent whatsoever, but that's just the nature of things.
I know it's not the same thing, but as an example: most people might think it's fine to dress as Pocahontes or whatever for Hallowe'en, but there are people that find that offensive. It basically comes down to a view that others are attempting to trivialise your culture, by 'dressing up' as your ancestors, or in this case, sculpting some plastic models.
Generally though, this is not close to the same as Nazi Guard, as the Samurai culture still sees a lot of romanticism in pop culture, even coming out of Japan.
I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.
I'm sorry but no, that is not how it works, being offended is a standard feeling can feel based on personal dislikes, traits, cultural means, or whatever. It does not have to mean the object in question is actually offensive. Otherwise everything under the sun itself could be offensive, including the fact people are offended by the thought we have such a bland name for our solar systems big star.
One can feel offended by someone wearing light bits of cologne the same as if someone doesn't mind if someone has some extreme Bad odor. Most offensive cases are usually cultural in tone, a permitted level of tolerance for some things as well as intolerance for others, but unless you are actively trying, or do something offensive based on past cultural experiences, it usually isn't offensive.
I hate to be a downer on this topic, but technically if someone was offended then yes, your army is offensive.
I'm sorry but no, that is not how it works, being offended is a standard feeling can feel based on personal dislikes, traits, cultural means, or whatever. It does not have to mean the object in question is actually offensive. Otherwise everything under the sun itself could be offensive, including the fact people are offended by the thought we have such a bland name for our solar systems big star.
One can feel offended by someone wearing light bits of cologne the same as if someone doesn't mind if someone has some extreme Bad odor. Most offensive cases are usually cultural in tone, a permitted level of tolerance for some things as well as intolerance for others, but unless you are actively trying, or do something offensive based on past cultural experiences, it usually isn't offensive.
You are confusing the many definitions of 'offensive' there. Something being offensive to your senses (like a smell), or being offensive as in annoying (like your ridiculous sun example) share only a name with offence in a racial context. Talking about a 'permitted level of tolerence' is a slippery slope, and no, you do not have to be actively trying to be offensive to actually be offensive. Take, for example, the countless white people that think it's okay to dress up in blackface every hallowe'en.
Back on the original topic, before it gets derailed by others seeking to nitpick at a single phrase out of a complete reply: I think that you have to be prepared for the fact, with any depiction of another culture, that you may be offending others. I don't think there was malice behind your actions, and maybe the other guy was just trying to pick a fight and found an 'in', but yes, it is possible that your army is offensive to others. Sorry.
yeri wrote: About a week ago I had an encounter that has been puzzling me ever since, and it would be nice if someone could clarify it.
Right before I went home on break I was showing some of my samurai orks to my friend when one of the exchange students from Japan overheard me talking about them. He approached us and went on a tirade on how my army was offensive to him. I just don't understand why. I'm not saying my orks are Japanese people, but that they crash landed on a samurai planet and decided they liked the hats and armor. I was trying to create a fusion of opposites with this army for comedy purposes. Could someone please explain to me what was making this guy so mad so I can try to fix it if I can. I don't want to offend people, I just want to have fun, but making people mad subtracts from my enjoyment, so I'd like to fix what I can.
I'd say they're offensive. I mean, they're orks. Normally if they don't try for the table, they wind up losing. It's hard to play a static gunline with them.
Well, considering that many of the original ideas of 40K were meant to be blatantly offensive (Orks being stereotyped Germans and/or lower class Brits), The Imperium being a very thinly veiled allegory for the Catholic Church, etc etc, I would not worry about it too much if I were you. Also, awesome way to out troll a troll!
Just jumping into the WW2 aspect here , Stalin was by far worse then Hitler just had a more effective ( equally brutal ) way of doing it , WW2 Nazi Germany is filled well into the imperiums style , Cadian shock troops with their zealousness and miltary upbringing very similar to the hitler youth , Mordian Iron guard almost matching perfectly with Germany's Prussian superiority background . The inqusitions Gestapo like tactics with apprehension and dealing with heritics, xenos and the like . To say that warhammer dosnt have a Very NAZI. Influenced background is plain ignorance - More on topic if the jap is offended the. Just have him frak off , it should only be truelynoffensive if it's ment in that manner.
Just my 2 Reich marks
Kasrkin229 wrote: Just jumping into the WW2 aspect here , Stalin was by far worse then Hitler just had a more effective ( equally brutal ) way of doing it , WW2 Nazi Germany is filled well into the imperiums style , Cadian shock troops with their zealousness and miltary upbringing very similar to the hitler youth , Mordian Iron guard almost matching perfectly with Germany's Prussian superiority background . The inqusitions Gestapo like tactics with apprehension and dealing with heritics, xenos and the like . To say that warhammer dosnt have a Very NAZI. Influenced background is plain ignorance - More on topic if the jap is offended the. Just have him frak off , it should only be truelynoffensive if it's ment in that manner.
Just my 2 Reich marks
Imperial Guard - Just like any regular armed force -Just embiggened.
The Inquisition - Just like the Inquisition.
The Promulgation of the Imperial creed - Any secular society - Totalitarian regime.
Remember Nazi = National Socialist party ideology. There are influences form all of history in the 40k universe
Yep, and calling him a "Jap" is probably way more offensive than the army he was upset about.
Also, just because there are elements from throughout history in 40K that relate to the darker aspects of humanity, doesn't necessarily only equate to "Nazi." Like the last poster said, the Inquisition is very much like the real-life Inquisition. The Imperium is very much like a lot of real life totalitarian regimes, regarldess of the country they come from. Valhallans look like German/Russian soldiers from WWII. Should i stop playing them because they look similar? No. I can celebrate the men who fought, without agreeing with the government they fought for. Besides. Russians were cool, and right bastards. They could fight, and that's what I'm celebrating by playing this army.
I am Johnny come lately to the thread, and it looks like it's already been beaten to death here, but, as a white guy who is completely fluent in Japanese and was an exchange student in Tokyo, and is married to a Japanese national, I thought I might add my two cents. I think it's quite simple -
1) The guy is a student, meaning he is probably about 20 years old, correct? 20 year olds tend to be ultra-liberal and easily offended and out to change the world. I remember I was like that. When I was a 20 year old, I found discrimination in everything and was more than willing to rail against it to anyone who would listen. There is certainly no shortage of racist things to get upset about in Japan... I'm sure I would have gotten butthurt over this kind of thing when I was 20 years old, too.
2) There seems to be a phenomenon that I have observed among foreign exchange students who come to the US... they absorb the ultra-liberal / anti-white attitudes of their schoolmates, and, again, find racism and discrimination in everything. This way of thinking is not common in Japan at all... there is very little in the way of "race consciousness" over there. I can't think of a single Japanese (among the hundreds that I know) who might be offended by your army. They wouldn't even give it a second thought. But, the kids come here and pick it up. Ironically, this whole concept of ultra-sensitivity to racism is a uniquely western thing.
TL;DR? This guy will grow up and get over it.
He may even one day realize that he isn't entitled to a student visa here, that his stay here really wasn't that bad, and that he was an overly-sensitive dolt. I know one former exchange student who eventually came to this realization.
Kasrkin229 wrote: Just jumping into the WW2 aspect here , Stalin was by far worse then Hitler just had a more effective ( equally brutal ) way of doing it , WW2 Nazi Germany is filled well into the imperiums style , Cadian shock troops with their zealousness and miltary upbringing very similar to the hitler youth , Mordian Iron guard almost matching perfectly with Germany's Prussian superiority background . The inqusitions Gestapo like tactics with apprehension and dealing with heritics, xenos and the like . To say that warhammer dosnt have a Very NAZI. Influenced background is plain ignorance - More on topic if the jap is offended the. Just have him frak off , it should only be truelynoffensive if it's ment in that manner.
Just my 2 Reich marks
Imperial Guard - Just like any regular armed force -Just embiggened.
The Inquisition - Just like the Inquisition.
The Promulgation of the Imperial creed - Any secular society - Totalitarian regime.
Remember Nazi = National Socialist party ideology. There are influences form all of history in the 40k universe
I think one issue is that people use the term Nazi in several ways.
It can mean the Nazi party ideology, but it can also mean ultrastrict or totalitarian. And I think the second meaning is what is used more commonly, because it doesn't include all the truly nasty bits.
Back when I was still playing TF2, I had a spray of Christofer Lloyd as Doc Brown wearing his wealding goggles and making a 'o' face when the trashcan went up in flames. This offended someone as they thought it was from old-man porn. Upon the rest of the server hearing of the offence, the girl was quickly shouted down for not knowing who Christopher Lloyd was.
This, along with the perpetual jokes about my broke ass pancreas, basically encompases everything I have encountered and learned about "offensiveness".
In short, 2 people.
1: Person can get the joke and realize it is such.
2: Person is greately offended by the "implied insult".
I find the better (read: "not best") way to deal with such people (so long as you plan on neve rmeeting them again) is to show how they are throwing a gak storm for little reason and troll the hell out of them. WARNING: CAN LEAD TO FIGHTS. Keep calm and happy. Do your best to smile and agree with what they say ("Yah, I guess it could be taken like that"). Learn their name and call them by something close to but not it. Clamly explain the situation and ask why they are offended. (It is typically some slight against steriotypes, political standing, medical disorders or dead relatives) Explain how this was not your intention and that you would gladly correct the offense if they would simply pay the cost of the slight (in this case, an Ork army + random bits + labor). When they decline, explain why the material is not offensive; and, the only offense in the situation comes from an intolerant individual such as the offended party perceiving an offense that is not there. Continue to assert the cost of correcting the slight and that the offense is only being incorrectly inferred until the offended person either leaves or give you a lot of money. Be sure to never use their correct name.
Nazi Germany is responsible for killing estimated 6 million of Polish people, Stalin was much worse not to mention my grandfather ended up in a Soviet gulag camp and I am offended neither by Nazi Space Marines nor Red Army Imperial Guard or anything else. The Imperium is supposed to be evil or has this become Star Wars already with good guys with swords vs evil rotten guys? Political corectness has no place in 40k world, not to mention it is a mess in a real world too as this game for example has an offence to religion built in, mainstream bands wear Che Gueavara or hammer and sickle shirts but out of a sudden svastika on a landraider is bad. Please.
I think a lot of people get their panties in a bunch for nothing. I do question people who would seem to "honor" Nazi's with their work, and if someone had a Khmer Rouge army, I'd wonder about them. I also don't think it fits into the setting of 40k. 40k takes a lot of braod themes from the real world, but it doesn't get that specific. The Imperium is modeled on totalitarian regimes all over. It's also modeled on the Dark Ages in Europe, religious oppression and at the same time, the heroism and bravery of people struggling against outside forces bent on their destruction.
40K is all about those greys. No black and white here.
40K is all about those greys. No black and white here.
Greys? It's more like different shades of black, there's no "Good faction" And when they introduced one, they eventually hit grey-black, and in any other setting would be the main villain to fight, grim dark everywhere with some very occasional grey/white spots in specific individuals rather than armies.
While none of the armies get very specific, some of the SC's behind them get more then a bit specific, such as the stalinesqe army getting "Free Reserves" out of conscripts, more akins to Stalins Shtrafbats army.
But those are really the closest of all the examples, nobody's going to accuse the Ultramarines of being too Roman or Blood angels being to Greek.
Valhalla130 wrote: I think a lot of people get their panties in a bunch for nothing. I do question people who would seem to "honor" Nazi's with their work, and if someone had a Khmer Rouge army, I'd wonder about them. I also don't think it fits into the setting of 40k. 40k takes a lot of braod themes from the real world, but it doesn't get that specific. The Imperium is modeled on totalitarian regimes all over. It's also modeled on the Dark Ages in Europe, religious oppression and at the same time, the heroism and bravery of people struggling against outside forces bent on their destruction.
Yep such an army might not fit the official fluff, but thje thread is about being offended by army theme. 40k is offensive by nature, it ripped off the gothic empire from 2000AD comics which was extremly xenophobic and facist and twisted it to be the best guys around. It mocks religion by showing masses forced to believe in a rotten corpse. Death Korps of Krieg look awesome for many people but the basis of their look is "I am the guy that finishes you off with the bayonet after throwing mustard gas at you". Noone is offended by sado maso rape and torture elves but Nazi oh no, this is wrong, that's an attitude that is beyond my comprehension. Samurai orks btw are completly innocent and a great idea btw in the light of all this, I can't get it too. If I picked themes that offend my very beliefs and traditions in 40k, I couldn't play the game at all - the nature of the game is extremes and you have to accept it, and if people accidentaly managed to force all that ingame political corectness bs on other players and GW, 40k would imo loose all its character and become medieval Mass Effect or sth, it's a bad direction and it's enough that GW already destroys it by catering to kids.
Not to mention IG is already strongly Soviet/ Nazi themed. As for Nazi armies, Wermacht/ SS although bit theatrical looked incredible with the uniforms, coats, symbolism etc, that's a strong theme and properly transforming the feel into a 40k army would be something awesome imo. It's not that 40k fluff is something that needs to be so much respected, it's a one big ripoff anyway.
Yep such an army might not fit the official fluff, but thje thread is about being offended by army theme. 40k is offensive by nature, it ripped off the gothic empire from 2000AD comics which was extremly xenophobic and facist and twisted it to be the best guys around. It mocks religion by showing masses forced to believe in a rotten corpse. Death Korps of Krieg look awesome for many people but the basis of their look is "I am the guy that finishes you off with the bayonet after throwing mustard gas at you". Noone is offended by sado maso rape and torture elves but Nazi oh no, this is wrong, that's an attitude that is beyond my comprehension. Samurai orks btw are completly innocent and a great idea btw in the light of all this, I can't get it too. If I picked themes that offend my very beliefs and traditions in 40k, I couldn't play the game at all - the nature of the game is extremes and you have to accept it, and if people accidentaly managed to force all that ingame political corectness bs on other players and GW, 40k would imo loose all its character and become medieval Mass Effect or sth, it's a bad direction and it's enough that GW already destroys it by catering to kids.
Not to mention IG is already strongly Soviet/ Nazi themed. As for Nazi armies, Wermacht/ SS although bit theatrical looked incredible with the uniforms, coats, symbolism etc, that's a strong theme and properly transforming the feel into a 40k army would be something awesome imo. It's not that 40k fluff is something that needs to be so much respected, it's a one big ripoff anyway.
I've never fully understood some of this stuff either. During people's best efforts to make me understand it, I've just mentally come up with that there's an uncanny valley for atrocities being reproduced in alternative mediums.
For example:
Fascist humans fighting wars of conquest and genocide: Fine. "Nazi's" doing it: Bad.
Races of beings that drag people off to do "bad stuff" to them behind closed doors: Fine. IG "wartime rape scene": Bad.
Tentacled horrors deranged enough to make stalwart men tremble in fear: Fine. Actually portraying it really amazingly well (see "Wet Nurse"): Bad
Not saying this is good or bad; it's simply my observations.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Offensive? This is awesome. I would like to voice my support for the suggestion that you name your War Boss after the exchange student.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Nazi Germany is responsible for killing estimated 6 million of Polish people, Stalin was much worse not to mention my grandfather ended up in a Soviet gulag camp and I am offended neither by Nazi Space Marines nor Red Army Imperial Guard or anything else. The Imperium is supposed to be evil or has this become Star Wars already with good guys with swords vs evil rotten guys? Political corectness has no place in 40k world, not to mention it is a mess in a real world too as this game for example has an offence to religion built in, mainstream bands wear Che Gueavara or hammer and sickle shirts but out of a sudden svastika on a landraider is bad. Please.
We have a black guy at my FLGS that complains (tongue in cheek) that every (human) army is painted white, including his. So I painted a squad of my Sisters of Battle as Sistas of Battle, complete with over the top 70's afros and platform shoes. He almost died laughing, because someone took his stupid argument, sided with him, and made it even stupider. Point is, some people are cool, and some are jerks. Don't play with jerks.
The Sarducci wrote: We have a black guy at my FLGS that complains (tongue in cheek) that every (human) army is painted white, including his. So I painted a squad of my Sisters of Battle as Sistas of Battle, complete with over the top 70's afros and platform shoes. He almost died laughing, because someone took his stupid argument, sided with him, and made it even stupider. Point is, some people are cool, and some are jerks. Don't play with jerks.
There was an awesome black guy that joined in on our DnD shenanigans, about halfway through he said "Can I be REALLY black and have some of that watermelon you got there?" We all sprinkled racist jokes at our own expense the rest of the session. It was great times.
I don't make light of racial issues that are actually issues. Light-hearted humor isn't an issue.
Your post is pretty accurate except where you say the Japanese are not racist...do a little research you will be very surprised ! Maybe not so much race, but ethnicity whoooowaw....remember in Japan there is not a racial distribution like here, if there was you can bet they would be moRE 'racist' (if it even exists) than those here
Xenocidal Maniac wrote: I am Johnny come lately to the thread, and it looks like it's already been beaten to death here, but, as a white guy who is completely fluent in Japanese and was an exchange student in Tokyo, and is married to a Japanese national, I thought I might add my two cents. I think it's quite simple -
1) The guy is a student, meaning he is probably about 20 years old, correct? 20 year olds tend to be ultra-liberal and easily offended and out to change the world. I remember I was like that. When I was a 20 year old, I found discrimination in everything and was more than willing to rail against it to anyone who would listen. There is certainly no shortage of racist things to get upset about in Japan... I'm sure I would have gotten butthurt over this kind of thing when I was 20 years old, too.
2) There seems to be a phenomenon that I have observed among foreign exchange students who come to the US... they absorb the ultra-liberal / anti-white attitudes of their schoolmates, and, again, find racism and discrimination in everything. This way of thinking is not common in Japan at all... there is very little in the way of "race consciousness" over there. I can't think of a single Japanese (among the hundreds that I know) who might be offended by your army. They wouldn't even give it a second thought. But, the kids come here and pick it up. Ironically, this whole concept of ultra-sensitivity to racism is a uniquely western thing.
TL;DR? This guy will grow up and get over it.
He may even one day realize that he isn't entitled to a student visa here, that his stay here really wasn't that bad, and that he was an overly-sensitive dolt. I know one former exchange student who eventually came to this realization.
The Sarducci wrote: We have a black guy at my FLGS that complains (tongue in cheek) that every (human) army is painted white, including his. So I painted a squad of my Sisters of Battle as Sistas of Battle, complete with over the top 70's afros and platform shoes. He almost died laughing, because someone took his stupid argument, sided with him, and made it even stupider. Point is, some people are cool, and some are jerks. Don't play with jerks.
There was an awesome black guy that joined in on our DnD shenanigans, about halfway through he said "Can I be REALLY black and have some of that watermelon you got there?" We all sprinkled racist jokes at our own expense the rest of the session. It was great times.
I don't make light of racial issues that are actually issues. Light-hearted humor isn't an issue.
lol at "racial issues that are actually issues"
such as affirmative action?
selective hiring for public positions that favor minorities?
Native American treaties?
Plumbumbarum wrote: Nazi Germany is responsible for killing estimated 6 million of Polish people, Stalin was much worse not to mention my grandfather ended up in a Soviet gulag camp and I am offended neither by Nazi Space Marines nor Red Army Imperial Guard or anything else. The Imperium is supposed to be evil or has this become Star Wars already with good guys with swords vs evil rotten guys? Political corectness has no place in 40k world, not to mention it is a mess in a real world too as this game for example has an offence to religion built in, mainstream bands wear Che Gueavara or hammer and sickle shirts but out of a sudden svastika on a landraider is bad. Please.
jcrone2 wrote: Your post is pretty accurate except where you say the Japanese are not racist...do a little research you will be very surprised ! Maybe not so much race, but ethnicity whoooowaw....remember in Japan there is not a racial distribution like here, if there was you can bet they would be moRE 'racist' (if it even exists) than those here
I think maybe you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. I did not say that the Japanese are not racist.
people flip out over the dumbest things just because they can. They dont realize that all this "That offends me!" bullcrap works both ways. Me as a christian got several other religions to shut up and leave my decorations alone using this trick (as an example).
If someone seriously tries to get you to alter your army because its "offensive" im sure if you look you can find something about them equally "offensive" and they'll usually go away and forget it.
Not if they're done right. Besides, the Tallarn are people who landed on, colonized and live on a desert world. Who knows that they may have started out white and over time adapted to their environment, even possibly having darker skin as a result. Not to mention that all Arabic people aren't that dark-skinned.
I usually answer this kind of question with "If you have to ask, it probably is.". In this case, I'd say you're good to go. Tough titty to the cry baby.
Fluff check- Tallarn was actually an agri-world that got bombarded by virus bombs.
The student visa has no authenticity to get reside here permanently. The guy will realize this thing in future.He might has to face some worse situation.Wishing good luck to him.
or there day isn't complete.
