So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength and it took several Astartes to take down one Thunder warrior. So i was wondering why dint the emperor make the Custodes and Astartes as strong and as big as the Thunder warriors? was there a reason why he made them smaller and weaker? was it to balance out there genetic chemistry to make them more stable to ensure they dint degenerate like the thunder warriors did? or did he have other reasons for doing this because i would have though when he was striving to make the perfect super human warriors to protect humanity he would make them as big and as beastly as he could.

Also is there any major difference between Custodes and Astartes? I know that the Custodes were more reliant on solidarity and were trained for alot longer and only at one at a time unlike the mass training of Astartes. Is there anything genetically different about them?

Astartes were designed to be more stable. The Thunderwarriors had one purpose, to unite Terra as quickly as possable.

The Emperor intended Space Marines to be a permanant force, that may have had uses beyond military once the Galaxy was united.


Thunderwarriors have been described as not being completely in control. They could lose it and go bezerk. The Emperor may have wanted a more stable soldier for his armies.

Thunder Warriors were probably better then either Custodes or Astartes in 1 on 1 combat, but were overall a less effective fighting force due to their mental instability, lack of longevity, and so on.

Yup. they were quite literally techno-barbarians. Astartes were designed to be more calculating and methodical, rather than berzerkers.

Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

 Redcruisair wrote:
Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

Since forever.

Always have been. Most of the armor wasn't even powered, but still massive like power armor. It was all powered in the chest and arms for hand to hand combat on Terra.

While the Astartes are a pinnacle of bio-engineering, the Thunder Warriors were more like freaks of nature.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Thunder warriors now stronger than Arstartes and Custodes? Since when?

The Index Astartes articles of 2001ish set the precedent I believe. Note the "and Custodes" part is just speculative though.

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength and it took several Astartes to take down one Thunder warrior. So i was wondering why dint the emperor make the Custodes and Astartes as strong and as big as the Thunder warriors? was there a reason why he made them smaller and weaker? was it to balance out there genetic chemistry to make them more stable to ensure they dint degenerate like the thunder warriors did? or did he have other reasons for doing this because i would have though when he was striving to make the perfect super human warriors to protect humanity he would make them as big and as beastly as he could.

Also is there any major difference between Custodes and Astartes? I know that the Custodes were more reliant on solidarity and were trained for alot longer and only at one at a time unlike the mass training of Astartes. Is there anything genetically different about them?

Well, Thunder Warriors weren't the best guys to leave sitting around. They were designed to unite Terra in one titanic war, crushing all opposition, with no other goal in mind. Now, after that was over, your talking about a bunch of super strong barbarians who have next to no diplomatic skills, and constantly want to go into a killing frenzy. Also, they had super short life spans. Now, after the war ended and he had some time to mess around with their genes, he made the more docile and cuddly Astartes and Costodes troops, and promptly wiped out his rather dangerous Thunder Warriors. Astartes can actually handle diplomacy without resorting to mass violence. Because they weren't running hot, so to speak, their bodies didn't burn out, and they became a long term investment. He was ultimately peaceful, and his goal was to make troops that could be reintegrated back into the civilian population after they had successfully reunited mankind throughout the galaxy.

???

I don't remember ever hearing this, I have the original history of SM armor article on the shelf but I think all it said was the first marks of armor had powered arms but unpowered legs. Nothing about them being superior to marines.

Is all this coming from some HH book?

Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

Yeah, the Custodes are completely different. They are created in test tubes, completely artificial beings. Designed to be the perfect bodyguards.

I think the closest thing to thunder warriors the Imperium has is the Flesh Tearers, the closest thing to ever be in the IoM would be the World Eaters. When I think of a thunder warrior my guess is that they would be roughly the size of an Astartes in Terminator Armor, but somewhat less bulky. That's how I think of them at least, I haven't seen any fluff that gives a definitive size but i haven't read it all.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
Also I believe that custodes are physically/genetically different to astrates.

They have a similar relationship between themselves and the emperor as asterates do with their primarch.

Well, not exactly. The Grey Knights carry the geneseed of the Emperor in all likelihood, Custodians, unlike Astartes, do not have a primogenitor, they are just made.


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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
???

I don't remember ever hearing this, I have the original history of SM armor article on the shelf but I think all it said was the first marks of armor had powered arms but unpowered legs. Nothing about them being superior to marines.

Is all this coming from some HH book?

The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

Its more like the GK geneseed used the Emperor as their Primarch. The Emperor doesn't have Geneseed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

 Grey Templar wrote:


The Emperor intended Space Marines to be a permanant force

Did he now

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

I second this, Bhabu Dhakal and Ghota are extremes in the case of Thunder Warriors. Not saying that they aren't better than Astartes but to paint all Thunder Warriors with the same brush is a bit blind. It's like saying that all Custodes are better than all Astartes which depending on your fluff could be deemed correct.

Astartes are of a more refined process for mass production where the Custodes are something more complicated. Who knows what the process of creating a Thunder Warrior was.

Some Thunder Warriors were early Space Marines

This first type of armour is now often referred to as 'Mark 1'. In fact this is the sort of armour worn by the technobarbarian warriors that dominated the Earth. When the Emperor began his conquest of the planet his retinue was equipped and armed in the same way as the troops of other warlords. The first Space Marines formed part of that retinue and were equipped with the same sort of armour as other warriors of the time.

The main part of the armour is the massive powered torso which encloses the chest and arms. Beneath the armoured chest plate coiled energy cables transmit power into the arms, effectively multiplying the wearer's fighting abilities three or four times over. During this period most fighting consisted of close combat, warriors preferring to grapple with each other rather than use long range weapons - the power of a warrior's chest and arms was therefore of paramount importance.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

Yes, but that Custodian had battlefield wounds that severely impaired his reflexes, enough to make him not qualify for front-line duty (so apparently having this gimp guard the Imperium's most dangerous prisoners is a good idea). That same World Eater later on struggled against a human samurai/swordsman. That whole book is stupid and should just be ignored.

Speaking of stupid books that should be ignored, Deliverance Lost answers the OPs question by implying that the Emperor didn't really try very hard when he made the Astartes. He put all of his effort into creating the Primarch genomes, and after they were spirited away, created the Astartes from those strains as an afterthought. That's why a non-technically inclined Primarch and a few Magos-Biologis were able to drastically improve upon his design in just a few months. Fabius also has improved on the formula in many ways.

The Thunder Warriors were also never meant to be transported over massive distances to sustain centuries of warfare. I'd guess that the Astartes strike a balance between being hugely strong and being small enough to fit into vessels designed for humans.

I don't think that Thunder Warriors were ever bigger or stronger than a current Astartes, only more of a crude design and more brutish in combat.

All the violence of a Khorne berzerker/Flesh Tearer/ etc, but also none of the refinement that the Astartes program received during the Great Crusade.

There might be a relation between Thunder Warriors and Custodes. Little fluff-wise is know about both groups and the Imperial Fists basically lost their jobs after the Horus Heresy. Of course it's just speculation from me.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The Outcast Dead from what I hear implies as much.

A World Eater whom managed to kill a Custodian barehanded, was no match for a single Thunder Warrior.

I don't know if there is anything in Index Astartes to say as much.

I don’t think you could possibly claim the abilities of all Thunder warriors to be superior to those of the Astartes, just by basing your claim on Ghota’s performance in a single novel.

Shouldn’t the simple fact alone, that Ghota still lives in that timeline (The Outcast Dead) prove to us all, that this guy is an anomaly when it comes to the TW and therefore he makes for a bad example to use when we try to measure the TW’s standard abilities and compare them to those of the Astartes?

I second this, Bhabu Dhakal and Ghota are extremes in the case of Thunder Warriors. Not saying that they aren't better than Astartes but to paint all Thunder Warriors with the same brush is a bit blind. It's like saying that all Custodes are better than all Astartes which depending on your fluff could be deemed correct.

Astartes are of a more refined process for mass production where the Custodes are something more complicated. Who knows what the process of creating a Thunder Warrior was.

Some Thunder Warriors were early Space Marines

Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

The geneseed origin is pretty much openly said in the new GK codex, the geneseed is most likely derived from the Emperor's own genes.

As to the Loyalists from the traitor legions, none of their geneseed was carried over into the Gry Knights, the codex says that the Grey Knights used a completely new geneseed and based on fluff and setting it is very unlikely that any of the loyalist marines would still be carrying progenoid glands.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I thought the origins of the Grey Knights' geneseed was a mystery?
Speculations have included the Emperor himself, and the 70-odd marines from the Ttaitor Legions who remained loyal? (ie, Garro et al) Regardless, as far as I know neither has ever been confirmed.

The new GK codex pretty much comes out and says "Hey, their geneseed is based on the Emperor, so y'all are screwed!"

IDK, An Emperor Geneseed might not be all that, under all the psyker stuff he was human. You more or less end up with the same thing every Sm is based off of.

Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

The implications of the passage are clear, and there is no text to dictate that Astartes were on level with Thunder Warriors, in that book at least.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

What it says to me is...they are like every other SM chapter. They have a common gen ancestor. Nothing more really,maybe less honestly. The Primarchs were greater then himself, they were creation's spawned at his height with some help of the Gods. The SM geneseed while based upon that of the Primarchs are much lesser. They were a back up. The Grey Knight Geneseed came at a time when the Big E was most likely dead, made by folks that were not him. Sure it may have used his notes or something, but I am pretty sure he was on the throne ( had been since the start of the heresy) when the Grey Knight Geneseed came into being. It most likely came i 2nd or 3rd generation of the Knights as it seems likely the first Knights where all recruits from fallen legions.

The Emperor was human in form. He had unknown amounts of psyker power, but his body was that of a man. Saying the Geneseed was made from him, is a moral thing as in the end all geneseeds are made from him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Its not just the Thunder Warriors in Outcast Dead that are suggested to be better fighters then their Astartes counterparts:

HH-Betrayal page 85 wrote: Afterwards he wrote of his expirences in his journals, and records more then once coming across the hulking carcass of an armored Thunder Warrior, often with three or four of his number in legiones Astartes dead around him.

More than once does not equate to all though, it all depends on circumstance.

The implications of the passage are clear, and there is no text to dictate that Astartes were on level with Thunder Warriors, in that book at least.

Everything is that cut and dry in the 40k back story and there are no instances of half truths, false intentions and contradictions?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Given the Primarchs were directly based on the Emperor I would say its definitly something special.

The geneseed had actually existed for a while when the GKs were actually formed. The Emperor had obviously been planning on making a new strain of Marines for some purpose.

What it says to me is...they are like every other SM chapter. They have a common gen ancestor. Nothing more really,maybe less honestly. The Primarchs were greater then himself, they were creation's spawned at his height with some help of the Gods. The SM geneseed while based upon that of the Primarchs are much lesser. They were a back up. The Grey Knight Geneseed came at a time when the Big E was most likely dead, made by folks that were not him. Sure it may have used his notes or something, but I am pretty sure he was on the throne ( had been since the start of the heresy) when the Grey Knight Geneseed came into being. It most likely came i 2nd or 3rd generation of the Knights as it seems likely the first Knights where all recruits from fallen legions.

Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

The fact that the Emperor lived for thousands upon thousands of years suggests he was a bit more than 'just a man'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Didn't Malcador move Titan into the warp in the later days of the Heresy or something like that? Maybe all the Geneseed of the Grey Knights was removed during this time and new Geneseed implanted, I don't know if anything like that is possible or not.

while I am not the best at SM lore, I am pretty sure removing a geneseed is death. And you really can not just replace one, but rather they are the byproduct of the process of making one a Sm. I think this idea its a new geneseed is merely propaganda. I mean they can not go around saying they are really a hogpog of Traitorous Marine geneseeds now can they? Even though, honestly those would be best for the knights as they have shown a degree of resistance to chaos.

Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

I see what you are getting at but there are 19 different geneseeds implanted into an aspirant which turns them into a Space Marine.

Phase 18 is the Progenoid

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured

What I am asking is if the Glands have matured in the early Grey Knights and have been removed, could new ones, being the specific Grey Knight Progenoid be reimplanted to say, influence the other organs to mould to what is required of a Grey Knight.

Here's a thought, so the codex says that the Grey Knights Geneseed comes from the Emperor, now all of the Primarch material came from the Emperor also, so in a way all geneseed comes from the Emperor. Now ..

Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

Did the Emperor leave his own genetic material laying around or is the Grey Knights geneseed left over from somewhere else, say, from a Primarch that wasn't around anymore? No? Oh well, just a thought

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Certain Geneseed definitely, like the Black Carapace I would assume, but what of removing the progenoids and replacing these with another set, would that make any changing effect to the geneseed over present over time, sort of re wiring what was already there

what I do not get is why, the Emperor was in no place to make a new set, he was busy and the ones currently in the group already showed they were the best resistant of each of their groups. Like I said, I am calling bull on the idea of "New Geneseeds" it was simply something they told to the new recruits as in 40k faith is power. If you think the Big E himself is apart of you, that itself can act as a kind of resistance. To me it simply does not fit within the timeline.

I'm certain the Grey Knights recruited among existing Marines kept their geneseed as is. The ensuing Chapter was probably created from a mixture of these geneseeds (and possibly supplemented with a reserve of "pure" geneseed kept for just such a rainy day).

No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

How do you know he wasn't making these geneseeds with all the time he had prior to the Heresy?

The Emperor's Gift is most definitly not BS.

Still gonna call it BS, it simply does not fit. His Geneseeds came from his mistakes with his first weapons. Its "real" because they think it is, no more reason. The Emperor did not make "Back up " genseeds. He was busy doing something else( the webway) and most likely would have did the same thing with the SM he did with the thunder warriors. they were tools made to do a single job.

The Knights were never part of his plan, they are something that got thrown together at the last moment after it had hit the fan, when he was more or less confined to the throne. So no I do not think the idea of him making a Geneseed just for them to be real.

The geneseed was stated as having been created ahead of time. It was a plan that was altered for sure, but that geneseed was intended for something.

I think the Emperor was planning on creating a force of Psychic space marines to help him clear the Webway out.

The Grey Knights was a direct result of the horus Heresy, not the original plan Grey Templar. Also I suspect part of the geneseed came from the 8 Astartes which originally founded the chapter as well, due to Empy's genetics not being a good idea to implant in humans. More than 50% failure-rate tells a person that much.

I was thinking the genseed did not make them psykers, they recruit pykers. To each his own I guess, I do not buy it. Not the first thing in 40k that did not fit the setting or contradicted itself.

Of course it doesn't make them psykers, but it was likely specifically designed with Psykers in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Grey Knights was a direct result of the horus Heresy, not the original plan Grey Templar. Also I suspect part of the geneseed came from the 8 Astartes which originally founded the chapter as well, due to Empy's genetics not being a good idea to implant in humans. More than 50% failure-rate tells a person that much.

As they are now? Yes,

But their geneseed was intended for something else. Some other greater plan. And it was probably just the sort of thing that an organization needed to fight daemons would need.

Most likely the Emperor was planning on creating a secret Daemon Hunting force of Marines that, due to events, Malcador was forced to accelerate and alter.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

what I do not get is why, the Emperor was in no place to make a new set, he was busy and the ones currently in the group already showed they were the best resistant of each of their groups.

Which is kinda what I am getting at with my tongue in cheek comment, maybe he had a spare set after a Primarch, I don't know, went awol?

Maybe the Geneseed was an early version of what the Thousand Sons should have been, but where they became psykers due to the geneseend, this geneseed needed to be implanted in a psyker to take effect and the reason why the Legion became Lost?

In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

I was just wondering if their is good book that describes the origin and creation of the grey knights?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

No, those failed. He did not have much uses for his failed projects. I do not think he meant the SM to outlast his crusades, not in there current capacity as they are not a peace keeping force. No they use the Geneseends they started with, but whitewash the background. Belief is often fact in 40k and the Grey knights themselves often do not know where the geneseed comes from. They have hints and are told maybe this or maybe that, but as I said before they can not go around saying the truth as it would get them hunted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RonanSAS wrote:
I was just wondering if their is good book that describes the origin and creation of the grey knights?

The grey knights Codex, which seems to not be well liked and the HH books are about it. They seem to contradict themselves, but hey its 40k.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
In other words, ya know it was just the genseeds from non traitor thousand sons

I'm more thinking along the lines of one of the Primarchs we don't know anything about

No, those failed. He did not have much uses for his failed projects. I do not think he meant the SM to outlast his crusades, not in there current capacity as they are not a peace keeping force. No they use the Geneseends they started with, but whitewash the background. Belief is often fact in 40k and the Grey knights themselves often do not know where the geneseed comes from. They have hints and are told maybe this or maybe that, but as I said before they can not go around saying the truth as it would get them hunted.

How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

Sorry to jump in, but I'm curious as to the reasoning behind this. What makes you say that the marines were a stop-gap?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

I think I agree with this. It would also be a poor repayment to the loyalists that form the initial council if they couldn't pass on their heritage via geneseed. I think the Grey Knights carrying on the positive attributes of those Marines that stayed loyal to the Emperor even in the face of their own Primarch, is far more interesting than some magical MacGuffin super geneseed suddenly materializing out of nowhere. The Emperor is portrayed as ridiculously busy at this time, considering he won't stop his webway project to even direct the war against his rebellious son, I don't think he would put in on the backburner to tinker around with more geneseed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

I've said as much myself, that the Astartes are a measure until mankind can defend itself. But perhaps he gave the others another shot after working out the kinks and the Grey Knights were the outcome.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Geneseed is made from the harvested progeniod gland, this gland, once mature can easily be removed before death (it is just that over the 10,000 years after the heresy, ritual has taken over from procedure and the second progeniod gland is removed after a marine can no longer serve, e.i. death).

Recruits are not implanted with geneseed they are implanted with organs, so swapping a marine's organs would be impossible.

I see what you are getting at but there are 19 different geneseeds implanted into an aspirant which turns them into a Space Marine.

No an asprant is implanted with 19 organs made from 1 geneseed. A geneseed is a cultured mature progeniod gland.

Phase 18 is the Progenoid

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured

What I am asking is if the Glands have matured in the early Grey Knights and have been removed, could new ones, being the specific Grey Knight Progenoid be reimplanted to say, influence the other organs to mould to what is required of a Grey Knight.

As stated in the exert, progeniod glands do not ifluence, they are influenced. All it would do by implanting more progeniod glands would create more mature geneseed based onnthe original marine's heratige. And all the while you would have wasted a cultured geneseed that could be used to make another marine. All this method would do would make the Grey Knights have no single genestock.

Here's a thought, so the codex says that the Grey Knights Geneseed comes from the Emperor, now all of the Primarch material came from the Emperor also, so in a way all geneseed comes from the Emperor.

That is like saying all dogs desecended from wolves so a husky is the same as a daschund, the primarchs were unique creations based on gene manipulation (just look at the fact that all the primarchs were vastly different.) so even with the same origingeneseed based on the emperor would different that a geneseed based on a primarch.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How do you know they failed? Maybe they surpassed the Emperors design in all that he wanted and that's why they became lost, because he had no option but to erase them from history. Essentially he would have a spare deck to use one that he might have improved upon.

Because all 18 of the others failed in one way or another. He himself doomed his own project. Besides if ya look at how the man did things, he always planned to replace them. SM were a stop gap, not his plan from the word go.

I've said as much myself, that the Astartes are a measure until mankind can defend itself. But perhaps he gave the others another shot after working out the kinks and the Grey Knights were the outcome.

That simply makes no sense at all given his actions and the setting. He did not hand off projects, hell the whole HH came about because he treated everyone like mushrooms. He did not hand off data, he did not share plans and he never seemed to keep someone untouched "just in case". His flaw was he played the long game, but he played it all for nothing with no backup plans. The SM were not the plan, they were a fall back once his plan went sideways. He really could not make a whole new set as he could not make another Primarch, which is what each Genseed was based upon.

Nothing I have seen makes the idea of them having "New" geneseeds nothing more then a fairy tale they tell themselves and everyone else to hide the fact they are descended from the traitor legions.

My assessment.

The ThunderWarriors were the Emperors attempt using the technology of the time to create super soldiers. Probably built in much the same way as the Space Marines using an existing host and some kind of genetic therapy.

If you believe intimations made by a certain HH novel, that it required a bargain between the Emperor and the Chaos Powers to create the Primarchs. The Emperor could not build them alone and in my general assessment had to include non-technological intervention by the Chaos powers to make it happen. A radical thought, but what could they have contributed?

The Space Marines were designed with the "leftovers" of that technology. The Emperor could not create an army of Primarchs and so fine-tuned the ThunderWarrior technology of genetic therapy to make the Marines. His radical change, of course, was the creation of the Progenoid glands.

The Custodes were created sometime after the creation of the Primarchs. I have often thought they might have been created at the same time beyond the watchful eye of the chaos powers. They seem to be created in the same way and exhibit the individualism and general superior abilities along those lines, but because the Emperor didn't have the assistance he did with the Primarchs, could only create a few of them.

I think it is very fitting that it required the assistance of the Chaos gods to create the beings we know as the Primarchs. With the Marines and the Custodes being but very, very pale reflections of those figures.

Just some thoughts.

Since he employed warp magic to create the primarchs(?) since the sm come from them do people think that was a window for the chaos gods to get to them and make them fall to coruption?

Not a hijack just an earlier post made me curious.

Also the Emp did intend the sm as a stop gap, the human race was/is becoming more pychic and he needed the sm till mankind were ready like what was earlier.

Pretty sure Custodes came first, then Thunder warriors then SM's. Unlike Thunder warriors or SM, Custodes are vat grown, much like the Primarches, but creating them was a slow process.

 BluntmanDC wrote:


No an asprant is implanted with 19 organs made from 1 geneseed. A geneseed is a cultured mature progeniod gland.

From the Index Astartes article Rites of Inititation

There are nineteen varieties of gene-seed corresponding to the nineteen different superhuman organs that are surgically implanted into a Space Marine.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

As stated in the exert, progeniod glands do not ifluence, they are influenced. All it would do by implanting more progeniod glands would create more mature geneseed based onnthe original marine's heratige. And all the while you would have wasted a cultured geneseed that could be used to make another marine. All this method would do would make the Grey Knights have no single genestock.

Which is true, but could the Emperor not amend these to have a different effect, to bring all the gene-seed in line with the template that the progenoids have embedded in them. Why would you want to use the progenoids from the marines that were traitors again anyway? You would want them to become something more i.e the Grey Knights. It's all just hypothesis, I'm not saying that this what happened, just firing off ideas.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

That is like saying all dogs desecended from wolves so a husky is the same as a daschund, the primarchs were unique creations based on gene manipulation (just look at the fact that all the primarchs were vastly different.) so even with the same origingeneseed based on the emperor would different that a geneseed based on a primarch.

True again, but that doesn't change the fact that all did come from the Emperor. I'm not saying that there aren't any differences at all, just that they were manipulated by the Emperor to be something else.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


That simply makes no sense at all given his actions and the setting. He did not hand off projects, hell the whole HH came about because he treated everyone like mushrooms. He did not hand off data, he did not share plans and he never seemed to keep someone untouched "just in case". His flaw was he played the long game, but he played it all for nothing with no backup plans. The SM were not the plan, they were a fall back once his plan went sideways. He really could not make a whole new set as he could not make another Primarch, which is what each Genseed was based upon.

Nothing I have seen makes the idea of them having "New" geneseeds nothing more then a fairy tale they tell themselves and everyone else to hide the fact they are descended from the traitor legions.

I think we're missing each others points here as I am confused by your reply.

We know the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra to unify it for his and mankinds benefit, possibly he did with the same for the Astartes, why create the Primarchs then. Because without the Primarchs he wouldn't have the template. Perhaps as with the Thunder Warriors, once the Astartes had served their purpose he would discard these as well.

I'm not sure about your comment about handing off projects, sorry.

He shared plans on a need to know basis, which was his biggest mistake it would seem. He even let Corax have the majority of the Primarch data to rebuild his legion.

Not sure about your untouched comment either, again, sorry.

I do not agree with you at all about the Astartes being the fall back, look what happened after all.

I was being ambiguous about the Geneseed thinking that you might get my train of thought. I am not saying that he made this new Geneseed, but he had some laying around from a Legion that was not there anymore, one that no longer had a Primarch or required the use of it any more.

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

 Omegus wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they simply would not have kept the geneseed of marines recruited from other chapters and would have only used the geneseed that contained the Emperor's Gift.

I am still saying that "gift" was pure BS, it never really happened as the time line simply does not line up to give the Emperor years to make a whole new set of Geneseeds. I think like many things to do with the Grey Knights, what they are taught and the truth are often not the same thing.

I think I agree with this. It would also be a poor repayment to the loyalists that form the initial council if they couldn't pass on their heritage via geneseed. I think the Grey Knights carrying on the positive attributes of those Marines that stayed loyal to the Emperor even in the face of their own Primarch, is far more interesting than some magical MacGuffin super geneseed suddenly materializing out of nowhere. The Emperor is portrayed as ridiculously busy at this time, considering he won't stop his webway project to even direct the war against his rebellious son, I don't think he would put in on the backburner to tinker around with more geneseed.

What if the Geneseed used to make Grey Knights is the one that Babu Dhakal creates at the end of Outcast Dead??? ie a hybrid Thunder Warrior/ Space Marine geneseed. Thunder Warriors appear to be more warp resistant then Space Marines. Ghota, exclaims how the navigator's eye can't effect him. Even is that statement is not proven it is still important because he already knew that she had used her eye on people before.

Disclaimer:
Not my idea but I think it fits and actually gives the creation of "Outcast Dead" a reason.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stonerhino wrote:
What if the Geneseed used to make Grey Knights is the one that Babu Dhakal creates at the end of Outcast Dead??? ie a hybrid Thunder Warrior/ Space Marine geneseed. Thunder Warriors appear to be more warp resistant then Space Marines. Ghota, exclaims how the navigator's eye can't effect him. Even is that statement is not proven it is still important because he already knew that she had used her eye on people before.

Disclaimer:
Not my idea but I think it fits and actually gives the creation of "Outcast Dead" a reason.

Never read that, but it seems to me based on all the stuff we have of the Thunder warriors they are prime meat for the Blood god. They were mentally unstable and pron to rage and killing anything that moved. Besides the Sm are thunder warrior 2.0

The Astartes are an updated warrior compared to Thunder Warriors. That being said the Thunder Warriors had advantages over Astartes whe you only consider combat. Its heavely hinted at that they where also very resistant to psychic attacks. Something that is very important when fighting post Old Night warlords on Terra. Astartes are much more stable mentally and genetically. It is the the later that is given as a reason as to one reason the Big E got rid of the Thunder Warriors and instead used the Astartes during the Great Crusade.

****Huge Outcast Dead Spoiler alert****
Grey Knights differ from normal Space Marines in many important ways. And it would be interesting to find out that that is because their Geneseed is based on a Thunder Warrior Astarte hybrid. Basically an Astarte with physical strength, toughness, fighting ability and psychic defence of a Thunder Warrior. While still maintaining the genetic and mental stability of an Astarte.

It could also explain why the Grey Knights are reserved for the hardest fighting against the toughest enemies.

Grey Knights are not reserved for fighting the toughest enemies, they are reserved for fighting the enemy they are specialized against. If anything, the Minotaurs fit the Thunder Warrior template more.

But I don't think Ghota would repay the Emperor's betrayal with suddenly creating a new hybrid chapter for him. And nothing indicates that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Astartes (in fact, against many traditional enemies they may even be worse off due to lack of experience).

As for not using traitor geneseed, if the implication is that the geneseed is influenced by its host as much as it shapes him, then this is the absolutely best geneseed to use. These guys proved unshakeable loyalty to the Emperor, above all else, even in defiance of their Primarchs. It doesn't get more hardcore than that.

I think the World Eaters were meant to replace the thunder warriors, but now i would say the closest is maybe the flesh tearers.
Grey knights are astartes who are trained to almost exclusively fight daemons and daemonic cults, so they cant be partially thunder warriors who would have skill against virtually every opponent. Grey knights are not made to fight the imperiums toughest enemies, they are made to fight deamons.

The World Eaters were not designed to replace the Thunder Warriors, considering they were first named the War Hounds and used pretty standard combat doctrines. I imagine when the Legions were initially created, they were basically ultramarines with mild variations based on their gene-seed. They didn't really start taking on the individual characteristics we are familiar with until after being reunited with their gene-sires.

 Omegus wrote:
Grey Knights are not reserved for fighting the toughest enemies, they are reserved for fighting the enemy they are specialized against. If anything, the Minotaurs fit the Thunder Warrior template more.

But I don't think Ghota would repay the Emperor's betrayal with suddenly creating a new hybrid chapter for him. And nothing indicates that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Astartes (in fact, against many traditional enemies they may even be worse off due to lack of experience).

As for not using traitor geneseed, if the implication is that the geneseed is influenced by its host as much as it shapes him, then this is the absolutely best geneseed to use. These guys proved unshakeable loyalty to the Emperor, above all else, even in defiance of their Primarchs. It doesn't get more hardcore than that.

Astartes fight Daemons when things go bad. The Grey Knights are not called in for every Daemonic incursion. Only the strongest ones, like the first battle of Armegeddon for example.

The only successfull genetic RnR going on was the Raven Guard and Babu Dhakal.

 Omegus wrote:
The World Eaters were not designed to replace the Thunder Warriors, considering they were first named the War Hounds and used pretty standard combat doctrines. I imagine when the Legions were initially created, they were basically ultramarines with mild variations based on their gene-seed. They didn't really start taking on the individual characteristics we are familiar with until after being reunited with their gene-sires.

Horus Heresy: Betrayal seems to indicate that the World Eaters were always psycho ragemonsters, just to a lesser extent.

HH: Betrayal, actually makes it seem like that was done on purpose rather then a result of their geneseed. The Emperor selected "Psycho ragemonster" recruits for them. There by creating extra amoral hypno inducted killers.

It would be interesting to find out that the Emperor planned for the World Eaters to be used as his anti-Legion Legion untill he discovered how "broken" Angron was. It could explain why they were not sent against the Thousand Sons.

 Stonerhino wrote:
HH: Betrayal, actually makes it seem like that was done on purpose rather then a result of their geneseed. The Emperor selected "Psycho ragemonster" recruits for them. There by creating extra amoral hypno inducted killers.

It would be interesting to find out that the Emperor planned for the World Eaters to be used as his anti-Legion Legion untill he discovered how "broken" Angron was. It could explain why they were not sent against the Thousand Sons.

I do not think the Emperor made the world eaters that way. They took ques from Angron, trying to emulate him and if the HH is to be believed even used rage inducing implants to try and be more like him.

Kharn renamed the legion, not Angron.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

 Omegus wrote:
Kharn renamed the legion, not Angron.

After De'shea Kharn gives Angron the idea if I recall

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

Soooooo...the genseed has zero to do with chaos resistance. In other words there is no reason not to use the ones they came with as new ones are no more resistant.

You are not helping your argument here man.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

The issue I have with the Geneseed being from Traitors still is that I don't believe you would want anyone having it due to the risk it poses.

Yest those were with out a dought the most Chaos resistant of all geneseends. They alone out of their whole legions rejected it.Kinda why they got used to form the knights. I am at a lose as why you would take tried and true geneseeds that you know have resisted chaos to try an new untested one. It simply makes no sense, not for the Emperor his actions or the time line. It simply does not fit.

Because it's the person, not just the Geneseed. If Garro for example was like any other Death Guard, excluding the other 69 I think, he would just be another traitor.

Soooooo...the genseed has zero to do with chaos resistance. In other words there is no reason not to use the ones they came with as new ones are no more resistant.

You are not helping your argument here man.

Argument, it's entirely theory. I don't honestly believe the Grey Knights have super duper Geneseed made from that of one of the Lost Legions, I am just shooting off ideas of how it might be possible.

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions, Garro's and the others might have been a mutation in itself or more than likely, his faith in the Emperor, rather than his Primarch, was stronger.

IA: CODEX ASTARTES The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor.

Lets see what the sources have to say, shall we:

Analysis is the bane of conviction.

Be strong in your ignorance.

Intellect is a mask for traitors

Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy.

You are not required to think, only to act

(diverse "thoughts of the day")

I think there is a pattern. I will now inform the ordo hereticus of your names.

amudkipz wrote:
I think the World Eaters were meant to replace the thunder warriors, but now i would say the closest is maybe the flesh tearers.
Grey knights are astartes who are trained to almost exclusively fight daemons and daemonic cults, so they cant be partially thunder warriors who would have skill against virtually every opponent. Grey knights are not made to fight the imperiums toughest enemies, they are made to fight deamons.

It's stated quite often that Thunder Warriors were created to fight in a world overrun with crazy psykers, mutants, atomic wastelands, etc. That's one of the reasons they're more resistant to psychic power - because Terra was full of crazy warp-magic in the Age of Strife. Sounds like a good basis for SM geneseed to me.

However, I doubt this is the story. I'd imagine the tale going to wards a 'Fabius finds the Babu's laboratory during the siege' plot line.


@OP

Generally, the differences are as follows.

Thunder Warriors - seem to be 'enhanced humans' using something similar to gene-seed. Armies of them existed for the sole purpose of uniting Terra, a rad-soaked wasteland of techno-barbarians and rogue psykers. Mental. Fought as a barbarian army. Good fighters, individually a bit more dangerous than a Marine (though it's not stated that they're that much bigger - just more dangerous). After a while their genetics rebelled and they died. At the final battle on Terra, they were all wiped out in a 'cull' by the Emperor (and sometimes the new Astartes).

Custodes - not enhanced humans - created in a lab using some of the Emperor's genetics as a base. They fight individually as bodyguard warriors, and are heavily implied to better individual warriors than Astartes, but not as good in a battle because they don't fight 'together'. Different reports place them at different sizes, but most commonly referred to as taller, but slighter, than an Astartes.

Astartes - much more stable 'enhanced humans'. Developed as soldiers and brothers, to be part of an unshakeable army. Achieved by starting with the Primarch project, then filtering this down to the 'enhanced human' pattern.

It seems that the Emperor decided that, for a galaxy-conquering army, it was better to tone down the physical/individual aspects of the warriors in favour of loyalty, stability and brotherhood.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

This, as Omegus said. The Legions often fallowed and took ques from Their Primarchs. The handful of survives that made up the core of the grey knights however were not simply Traitor marines that Lived. They are ones who in the end had that sense of betrayal burned into their very souls and over came the worst of it. If the genseed is effected by its SM, then you want those genseeds, they have proved to be not only the most faithful, but the "Hardest" around.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

It's likely that the Geneseed was one of the reasons for the fall of the Legions

I don't see any evidence what-so-ever that geneseed had anything to do with the betrayal; they were disaffected warriors that followed their disaffected Primarchs. Even in super-devout legions like Word Bearers and Sons of Horus, the Primarchs had to cull their ranks of those who remained loyal to the ideals of the Imperium.

This, as Omegus said. The Legions often fallowed and took ques from Their Primarchs. The handful of survives that made up the core of the grey knights however were not simply Traitor marines that Lived. They are ones who in the end had that sense of betrayal burned into their very souls and over came the worst of it. If the genseed is effected by its SM, then you want those genseeds, they have proved to be not only the most faithful, but the "Hardest" around.

I provided a quote from the Codex Astartes article that says that there were flaws in the Geneseed that allowed these to be exploited, have you got anything to say that it was not a contributing factor?. It's not the cause but one that should be considered. Even the IA article on the Word Bearers says that testing the Geneseed after the Heresy flaws were found

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

We don't even know how the Grey Knights came by their Geneseed but we know that they have their own specific set. So I think your assumption that they have retained the Geneseed from their original Legion is incorrect, but hey, that is also an assumption as we do not know the full story yet. I understand why you would want to use the same Geneseed from these marines that remained loyal to the Emperor above all else but from a practical sense and a risk sense I don't think it is what the current Grey Knight have.

I also never said that they were not just traitor marines, which is not the case as they are not traitors. Plenty of those survived and quite clearly, a lot of these are 'Hardest' as you put it, as they are still around in 40k. Do you know for sure that Garro becomes a Grey knight, or if he even survives the Heresy? I think any marine that survived had a feeling of betrayal burned into their very existence, you didn't have to become a Grey Knight for this, every marine felt the betrayal, what of Tarvitz and Nero, what of Barabas Dantioch of the Iron Warriors? These all felt betrayal, they weren't betrayed any less than Garro and his lot.

I haven't mentioned anything about the elements that were purged amongst the Traitors as they weren't part of the discussion but ok, lets go.

In the case of the Word Bearers the ones that were loyal were all Terrans (Dark Creed p184-185) and there's your tie to the Emperor. In the Luna Wolves I can imagine it was the same thing or service, like Iacton having fought with the Emperor and fighting since Unity. It's a similar situation across the whole of the Legions that went traitor, that they had elements of loyalist and traitor, but look at the loyalist chapters, how many elements turned here? I can think of one marine so far and I had never heard of him until I read Prince of Crows. If you ask me there is certainly something in the loyalist Geneseed that made them uber loyal to the Emperor, much like the Custodians.

The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines. And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines.

Loyalist marines from a legion that went traitor, there is a difference. If they were Traitors themselves they would have gone with their Primarchs.

The group Specifically Garro is he the first Grey knight, or is he one of the first Inquisitors that was another group that is bought about by the Heresy events.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

To the extent of the Traitor Geneseed? It's suggested that the Chaos Gods had some influence on the Emperors work but it's not proven, it could be Chaos smoke and mirrors like so many things, to get the would be traitors to turn fully.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

There is every point to not have a risk of a possible Traitor running around. So Garro for example is loyal, and the next 10 marines to use the Geneseed, but the 11th, 100th, who knows. Also having a mixture of Geneseed might get complicated, what happens if Rubios Progenoids get implanted in a new aspirant with a Black Carrapace grown from Garro's and a Bletchers Gland grown from Lokens?

How doesn't the timeline match? Malcador moved Titan into the Warp either during or after the Heresy, they could have had any number of years there to do what was needed, also why does the Geneseed have to be new? Perhaps it was the original template that the Emperor used to create the Primarchs and was never used anywhere else?

Not saying you are wrong at all, just sounding off possibilities.

I'll also leave this for you, it's from Decembers WD and an interview with James Sallow. Make of it what you will.

"But the questions I get asked most about Garro are about his future. Where will he end up? What is the significance of the colourless armour he wears in service to Malcador the Sigillite? Will he face Mortarion again? All these things will be answered in time, but I'll leave you with one revelation. He is not a Grey Knight. The question of who and what Nathaniel Garro is, and where his fate lies, is much more complicated than that..."

He might not be a Grey Knight or he could be THE Grey Knight

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Loyalist marines from a legion that went traitor, there is a difference. If they were Traitors themselves they would have gone with their Primarchs.

The group Specifically Garro is he the first Grey knight, or is he one of the first Inquisitors that was another group that is bought about by the Heresy events.

1: You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not. If they are not then why change a genseed? something never done? something that might not be possible to do?

2: As the group they are working with is the fledgling Inquisitors and they are hidden from everyone, Yes they are the birth of the Grey knights. Why else go recruit other Marines to form a new legion?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

To the extent of the Traitor Geneseed? It's suggested that the Chaos Gods had some influence on the Emperors work but it's not proven, it could be Chaos smoke and mirrors like so many things, to get the would be traitors to turn fully.

The Genseeds are made of and only came into bring once he lost his twenty super humans. And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not. If they do not then there is no reason to change them, if they do once more then those on the ones who did not turn are better then normal...so why change them?

[

 Pilau Rice wrote:

There is every point to not have a risk of a possible Traitor running around. So Garro for example is loyal, and the next 10 marines to use the Geneseed, but the 11th, 100th, who knows. Also having a mixture of Geneseed might get complicated, what happens if Rubios Progenoids get implanted in a new aspirant with a Black Carrapace grown from Garro's and a Bletchers Gland grown from Lokens?

Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

 Pilau Rice wrote:

How doesn't the timeline match? Malcador moved Titan into the Warp either during or after the Heresy, they could have had any number of years there to do what was needed, also why does the Geneseed have to be new? Perhaps it was the original template that the Emperor used to create the Primarchs and was never used anywhere else?

Because the emperor did not work that way, ever, He did not make extra anything, he planned and replanned and shared not a damned thing. he did not hold back, he never saved for later and he never seemed to have a damned back up. Also if he had an extra legion in the works..he would have used them in the HH ready or not. He was holding on by the skin of his teeth and he damned well knew it, he would have uncorked teenage Sm's to hold the line 2 mins if he had to.

So no, the time line and the way he worked makes the idea that he made new "super " genseeds a fairy tale the GK tell themselves as they do not honestly know the truth.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

1: You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not. If they are not then why change a genseed? something never done? something that might not be possible to do?

I haven't changed my mind, regardless of whether Garro is loyal or not he still has traitor Geneseed. This is my point.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

2: As the group they are working with is the fledgling Inquisitors and they are hidden from everyone, Yes they are the birth of the Grey knights. Why else go recruit other Marines to form a new legion?

To get Marines to train to become the Grey Knights? To save those of exceptional talent to train for the fledgling Inquisition?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

The Genseeds are made of and only came into bring once he lost his twenty super humans. And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not. If they do not then there is no reason to change them, if they do once more then those on the ones who did not turn are better then normal...so why change them?

How have I changed sides, the Geneseed is a factor to be be considered. Which is what I have said and provided quotes to support this. You said yourself that the Primarchs were flawed, which is where the Geneseed comes from. Why change the Geneseed, because it came from a Traitor Primarch which has been found to be flawed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

Are you just ignoring what I am writing, It is not just down to Geneseed - it is a contributing factor.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Because the emperor did not work that way, ever, He did not make extra anything, he planned and replanned and shared not a damned thing. he did not hold back, he never saved for later and he never seemed to have a damned back up. Also if he had an extra legion in the works..he would have used them in the HH ready or not. He was holding on by the skin of his teeth and he damned well knew it, he would have uncorked teenage Sm's to hold the line 2 mins if he had to.

So no, the time line and the way he worked makes the idea that he made new "super " genseeds a fairy tale the GK tell themselves as they do not honestly know the truth.

Who said he made extra, he had 2 redundant geneseeds laying around as it was. He also apparently had other options he could have used during the Heresy but he chose not to.

The Index Astartes article on the Grey Knights and their own codex suggests that they have their own Geneseed and the Codex says it is derived from the Emperor itself.

Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed. Legend has it that the Emperor himself ordered the creation of this unique Chapter to form a force designed to fight the dread creatures of Chaos, though, of course, this is impossible to verify.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

contained within the fortress walls they would find everything necessary to create a new army of Space Marines; the Grey Knights .. New supplies of Geneseed lay preserved in Cryovats

Codex Grey Knights P7: Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of new gene-seed, one without flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul

Now can you provide some actual evidence to say that they do not have new Gene-seed? I've quoted right there from the Codex, now your turn to actually back up something like I have been doing throughout this conversation.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You need to make up your mind. They are traitor marines or are not.

And once more you keep switching sides, either the genseeds make them traitors or they do not.

Once more...genseeds make one resistant or they do not..

Are you very familiar with the 40k background?

Nothing ever written by GW is that simple. It's not a very black and white world.

@Pilau Rice, The GK Codex says it itself "Legend has it". They do not know, the Codex is built from the Grey Knight view. They have zero proof of what they ar saying, they really do not know there own history or where they came from and have no proof other then a legend they themselves made up that they have "Super" geneseeds.

Genseeds always come from terra to start a new chapter. what do you think happened to all that genseed stock that used to belong to those traitor marine legions?

The Grey Knights came about at a time when simply put the Emperor was to busty to bother with them. The Codex itself says they know nada about the genseeds. Hell they do not even know where the first members came from.



Like all GW contradictions, ya have to pick and chose the ones that work man. For me this one simply does not fit.



@ArbitorIan, I am Familiar enough to know GW does a half ass job at setting control and canon , yep.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
@Pilau Rice, The GK Codex says it itself "Legend has it". They do not know, the Codex is built from the Grey Knight view. They have zero proof of what they ar saying, they really do not know there own history or where they came from and have no proof other then a legend they themselves made up that they have "Super" geneseeds.

Genseeds always come from terra to start a new chapter. what do you think happened to all that genseed stock that used to belong to those traitor marine legions?

The Grey Knights came about at a time when simply put the Emperor was to busty to bother with them. The Codex itself says they know nada about the genseeds.

Like all GW contradictions, ya have to pick and chose the ones that work man. For me this one simply does not fit.

It isn't a contradiction though is it, if anything the Codex confirms the assumption that their Gene-seed is from the Emperor. You find me the quote now from the latest codex, where I have pulled the quotes from that pretty much confirms that the Geneseed is taken from the Emperor himself, that says it's legend please as the quotes I have given you do not say this and as far as I can tell there is no mention of it being legend as it's black and white, new Gene - seed.

Once again you are blatantly not reading what's been provided to you and are ignoring pretty much what can be determined as fact. I don't like the way Ward said that the Grey Knights have Emperor Gene-seed, or at least carries his own flesh and soul, but he did.

And on the traitor legions gene-seed, why it's

IA: Codex Astartes
placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

And you are actually incorrect in the assumption that all gene-seed comes from Terra as

Index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

And your comment about the Emperor being too busy is incorrect as the codex, once again says.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

We also know that the Emperor tasked Malcador to bring together certain individuals, so indirectly the Emperor was dealing with the task.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Hell they do not even know where the first members came from.

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Wait Thunder warriors being the grey knights genetic template? are grey knights physically more powerful than standard astartes? i kind of thought they were sort of an all psychic chapter with better training/equipment than most chapters considering they were created for fighting daemons.

 Viersche wrote:
Wait Thunder warriors being the grey knights genetic template? are grey knights physically more powerful than standard astartes? i kind of thought they were sort of an all psychic chapter with better training/equipment than most chapters considering they were created for fighting daemons.

We kind of devolved into discussing Grey Knights, but they, if the Codex has anything to go by, have superior Geneseed to the other Astartes as it does not suffer from any of the flaws and impurities like the other Chapters do. I asked a question in regards to the Grey Knights Gene-seed and how it came about, making an attempt at possibly connecting it with one of the Lost Legions and then basically answered my own question as I glanced in the Grey Knights codex which has the answer there. It doesn't confirm where the Gene-seed came from, just that it is new and likely derived from the Emperor himself.

I wouldn't say it makes them more powerful, just more psychically attuned, as with the Emperor, and purer than your regular Astartes.

The Thunder Warriors were the precursor to the Astartes, that led to the Grey Knights.

Custodes are a different breed altogether and it's unknown whether they have a Gene-seed or not. I think it's mentioned in the First Heretic that they don't, as they are created in an entirely different way from the mass produced Astartes.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


It isn't a contradiction though is it, if anything the Codex confirms the assumption that their Gene-seed is from the Emperor. You find me the quote now from the latest codex, where I have pulled the quotes from that pretty much confirms that the Geneseed is taken from the Emperor himself, that says it's legend please as the quotes I have given you do not say this and as far as I can tell there is no mention of it being legend as it's black and white, new Gene - seed.

Once again you are blatantly not reading what's been provided to you and are ignoring pretty much what can be determined as fact. I don't like the way Ward said that the Grey Knights have Emperor Gene-seed, or at least carries his own flesh and soul, but he did.

I read it, your own quote does not say it as fact but "Legends says" The codex makes it clear the Gk believe it, but it also makes it clear they have been told this by someone or maybe just made it up as they honestly have no clue.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
IA: Codex Astartes
placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed.

Yes, I know this..but also that is what they are told. As most of codex stuff it may or may not be the whole truth.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And you are actually incorrect in the assumption that all gene-seed comes from Terra as

index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

Which comes from "terra" or the golden throne ot the council, however ya want to say it. New chapters are issues geneseed they have no clue where it comes from.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

And your comment about the Emperor being too busy is incorrect as the codex, once again says.

Codex Grey Knights P6: The Grey Knights were something altogether new, the culmination of a project begun by the Emperor during the final days of the Horus Heresy

Nice words for he told flunky x to make a unit...do not bother me with details I am busy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

We also know that the Emperor tasked Malcador to bring together certain individuals, so indirectly the Emperor was dealing with the task.

And it seems you agree, so no the Emperor had no hand in it. He told someone to handle it, he did nothing himself. Kinda like if I told you to "deal" with the low water pressure and you install new water pumps...yep I did that.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Not I, they honeslty do not know where. Garro may be ( and honeslty looks like they are) the start of the GK, but they did not pass on that info. The GK go out of their way so not even themselves have a hint they are descended from traitor legions as that alone would undo them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

I read it, your own quote does not say it as fact but "Legends says" The codex makes it clear the Gk believe it, but it also makes it clear they have been told this by someone or maybe just made it up as they honestly have no clue.

The quote you are referring to is from the Index Astartes article as mentioned, not the Codex which confirms new Geneseed. The Legend part states that the order to create the chapter came from the Emperor not the Geneseed, but that the gene-seed was specifically created for the Grey Knights.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Yes, I know this..but also that is what they are told. As most of codex stuff it may or may not be the whole truth.

This isn't from a Codex, it's from a specific article concerning the Codex Astartes, going into its origins and its intentions. So this is not a version of events, this is what happens.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

index Astartes: Rites of Initiation
According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

Which comes from "terra" or the golden throne ot the council, however ya want to say it. New chapters are issues geneseed they have no clue where it comes from.

That quote specifically says that the 5% tithe is sent to Mars, where they store Geneseed for new chapters. There are only two instances of Foundings where Gene-seed is untraceable, the 21st Cursed Founding and the 13th Dark Founding. Otherwise, Chapters origins can be traced back all the way to creation in the majority of cases. Of course there are Chapters, like the Blood Ravens, who aren't allowed to trace their origins. But the Grey Knights aren't one of these as the Gene-seed was created specifically for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Nice words for he told flunky x to make a unit...do not bother me with details I am busy.

He started the Project and asked the regent of Terra, hardly some flunky, to finish it as he did, you know, have more important things to do like, keep the Astronomicon from failing and prevent hordes of chaos Daemons from penetrating the Webway breach.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

And it seems you agree, so no the Emperor had no hand in it. He told someone to handle it, he did nothing himself. Kinda like if I told you to "deal" with the low water pressure and you install new water pumps...yep I did that.

No we don't agree, much like everything else in this thread. You provide no backing for your argument. As the quote states the Emperor began the project so he did have some hand in it, more than likely creating the new gene-seed for the Grey Knights that the Codex states was created for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Now whose changing their mind? One minute Garro is the first Grey Knight now they don't even know where the first members came from?

Not I, they honeslty do not know where. Garro may be ( and honeslty looks like they are) the start of the GK, but they did not pass on that info. The GK go out of their way so not even themselves have a hint they are descended from traitor legions as that alone would undo them.

Which in itself is a reason why they do not have traitor gene-seed. It is even stated in the Codex that they have new gene-seed.

Also

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The HH books make it clear the group that started the Grey knights are in fact traitor marines. And I hate to tell ya ( Not really) but every single genseed is flawed, they are based upon chaos work. Each and every one is fruit from the poisoned tree that was the Primarchs and each and every one of those as well as the legions made from them are flawed in some way.

I do not think they replaced the genseed because A: there is zero point to do so and in fact it would be counter productive B: The timeline does not match, there are not "New" super dupper Emperor 2.0 Geneseeds. They are a fairy tale.

Seems to make it clear that you are back peddling. You are insinuating that a) Garro and his group are the start of the Grey Knights and this is also confirmed by b) your belief that the Grey Knights still have traitor Gene-seed.

I am not backpeddinlging man. I just simply do not think they changed geneseeds. I ignore your "proof" as it contradicts the time line. I thought I made that clear enough man. And the codex does keep saying legend. They are just repeating what they have been told. Like all codexs its told from their point of view not "fact"often enough.

We just disagree here. You see it as proof, I see it as a contradiction .

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not backpeddinlging man. I just simply do not think they changed geneseeds. I ignore your "proof" as it contradicts the time line. I thought I made that clear enough man. And the codex does keep saying legend. They are just repeating what they have been told. Like all codexs its told from their point of view not "fact"often enough.

We just disagree here. You see it as proof, I see it as a contradiction .

1. How does it contradict the timeline? Do we know everything to do with the Heresy yet - so every revelation so far in the heresy series has been known to us all?
2. Find me in the Codex where it says about it being Legend - not in the IA article.
3. What exactly does it contradict?

You're back peddling and now copping out, you haven't provided a shred of anything to back up what you say, just a half arsed attempt saying 'you are wrong' without any foundation.

You quoted the codex when it said legend. You did, you simply ignore it as you want to. which is fine, 40k has crap canon ya have to pick and choose. You choose to believe it, I choose to see it as a contradiction. The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You quoted the codex when it said legend. You did, you simply ignore it as you want to. which is fine, 40k has crap canon ya have to pick and choose. You choose to believe it, I choose to see it as a contradiction. The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

I thought not, I'll take this bowing out as you having no proof and the poor attempt at turning it around on me because you do not have any evidence to support anything you say is quite bad show.

Thanks though, I actually learned that the Grey Knight Gene-seed does in fact come from the Emperor (codex) and it's not just a legend (Index Astartes).

Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

Provide your source, book and page number, that says that the Emperor was confined on the Golden Throne from day 1of the Heresy.

I can think of two, right off the top of my head where the Emperor is walking about at this time. One being Blood Games and the other being The Lightning Tower, scratch that make that three, Nemesis as well.

He was stuck on the throne since ol one eye bashed The webway down and unleashed the demons. The only person other then him that could have done it ( and did it) was Malcador , which IIRC killed him.

I do not know the books you speak of, so I can not comment on them. Perhaps Its new canon , I am unsure as GW canon is crap. However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
He was stuck on the throne since ol one eye bashed The webway down and unleashed the demons. The only person other then him that could have done it ( and did it) was Malcador , which IIRC killed him.

I do not know the books you speak of, so I can not comment on them. Perhaps Its new canon , I am unsure as GW canon is crap. However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

You say you have read the Heresy books and have no idea what the ones I mention are

Looks like I have been wasting my time as you clearly do not have a clue.

Oh and look, another back peddle

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

I am saying what I have since the start man, you are ignoring your own quotes. The GK do not infact know the truth, they have only what they have told to go on and this is what the book says.

Looks like you are the one ignoring their own quotes.

I read the first humm 4 or 5 maybe up to 6, then I started reading other books on my list. I have not read them all nor did i say i had. And I have not back peddaled a damn word. The lighting tower if I recall was not a book, but a short story, I have not read it however. He or Malcador were the only ones to power the throne. IIR it killed Malcador holding it while he took on Horus.

So No, he did not have time to brew a new batch of genseeds from scratch nor did he freaking work that way. The whole HH came about because he refused to work that way.

Anyone that Knows my posting on here knows I hate GW handling of the setting its armatureish is the nicest you way to can put it. And yes the GK stuff is a contradiction of the setting, not the first and sadly not the last.

It really is a matter of you getting all railed up as I call BS on what looks to be a contradiction you like very much. Eh to each his own.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I read the first humm 4 or 5 maybe up to 6, then I started reading other books on my list. I have not read them all nor did i say i had. And I have not back peddaled a damn word. The lighting tower if I recall was not a book, but a short story, I have not read it however. He or Malcador were the only ones to power the throne. IIR it killed Malcador holding it while he took on Horus.

So No, he did not have time to brew a new batch of genseeds from scratch nor did he freaking work that way. The whole HH came about because he refused to work that way.

Anyone that Knows my posting on here knows I hate GW handling of the setting its armatureish is the nicest you way to can put it. And yes the GK stuff is a contradiction of the setting, not the first and sadly not the last.

It really is a matter of you getting all railed up as I call BS on what looks to be a contradiction you like very much. Eh to each his own.

I am still not sure of this contradiction that you speak of and you appear to be the one getting railed up, perhaps you should have a rest as I think you are getting yourself confused.

You say

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
However, as of the HH books he was stuck on the throne. To remove him is death to Terra as only someone on the throne keeps the damaged webway closed..

but you also say

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Big E was confined upon the throne from day 1 of the Hersey onward. He never left then throne but to assault Horus.

You make comments as if you know what is happening yet you have not read all of the Heresy books, nor apparently the Grey Knights codex, nor their Index Astartes article. You might not like what GW and BL have published but the quotes I have provided to you are what we have and unless you have something tucked away some where you are pretty wrong on a few accounts.

But hey, each to their own right

Ya know reviews are often better then reading badly written books when one has better books to read. I keep up broadly but I found the books badly written after the first few and why waste my time on bad books?

Those two quotes of mine are not contradicting nor are they back peddling. He did not leave the throne, he was stuck there. someone had to hold the damned gate closed.

You say he did x and did Y but that is simply not fitting with his character nor holding secret Geneseeds when he would have damned well used them

. it simply does not fit. so something saying he did contradicts the rest of the setting which says he would not. Its GK legend and not fact, its what they tell themselves with no outside source backing it up.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yet your quote says otherwise man. And the timeline says otherwise, when looking at canon you look at all sources, if one does not fit, then it is a contradiction. You can disagree with that, but that is why something is called a contradiction. If ya have a quote from another book saying the fact the Emperor was not confined to the throne like every other source says, I would like to see it.

Provide your source, book and page number, that says that the Emperor was confined on the Golden Throne from day 1of the Heresy.

I can think of two, right off the top of my head where the Emperor is walking about at this time. One being Blood Games and the other being The Lightning Tower, scratch that make that three, Nemesis as well.

Just to add a little. In The Outcast Dead the big E only visited the Astropath in his dreams. Also in Deliverence Lost the Big E was only able to visit Corax in a vision. Malcador and Dorn had not seen the Emperor for sometime before Corax's arrival.

Another thing to mention is that the Emperor's gene labs were sealed up before the events in Deliverence Lost. And there the Big E says that he cannot leave the throne to unlock the labs for Corax. Then after gaining access to the labs the Raven Guard take most of the equipment with them. Which does not leave much time for Someone to create a new geneseed based on the Emperor. Aside from the work that Babu Dhakal is doing in The Outcast Dead.

The idea of the geneseed coming from the Emperor does not have to 100% correct. All that needs to exist is for the Emperor to use part of himself to make the Primarch/astartes and as long as those genes are used. Then that statement remains true.

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength

Actually, we don't know if the average TW is physically superior to the average Custodes or the average Astartes.

Based on a very limited sample (two "specimens" in The Outcast Dead), it would seem that Thunder Warriors are bigger, faster, and stronger than Space Marines. If they're so much better, why not keep them? Why switch to inferior warriors?

Possible reasons: SM have more implants and are therefore more adaptable to fighting in alien environments. SM are more mentally stable and thus more obedient. SM have longer life-spans, display better teamwork and higher tactical/combat intelligence. TW make better berserkers. SM make better soldiers. Perhaps TW can mentally and/or physically deteriorate at any time (i.e. in the middle of battle). That would be a significant drawback.

Of course, another explanation is that the two TW specimens in Outcast Dead are be outliers. It stands to reason that the two surviving TW are extremely bad ass by TW standards. If that were the case, it's possible that the average TW is actually inferior to the average SM.

 b1soul wrote:

burnaboy wrote:
So i have been thinking, we all know that the Thunder warriors were physically superior to the Custodes and Astartes in size and strength

Actually, we don't know if the average TW is physically superior to the average Custodes or the average Astartes.

Based on a very limited sample (two "specimens" in The Outcast Dead), it would seem that Thunder Warriors are bigger, faster, and stronger than Space Marines. If they're so much better, why not keep them? Why switch to inferior warriors?

Possible reasons: SM have more implants and are therefore more adaptable to fighting in alien environments. SM are more mentally stable and thus more obedient. SM have longer life-spans, display better teamwork and higher tactical/combat intelligence. TW make better berserkers. SM make better soldiers. Perhaps TW can mentally and/or physically deteriorate at any time (i.e. in the middle of battle). That would be a significant drawback.

Of course, another explanation is that the two TW specimens in Outcast Dead are be outliers. It stands to reason that the two surviving TW are extremely bad ass by TW standards. If that were the case, it's possible that the average TW is actually inferior to the average SM.

In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

 Stonerhino wrote:
In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

If that's the case then the main disadvantage of TW is most likely instability

They appear to have short unpredictable life-spans. Moreover, they're mentally unstable (I assume they're prone to psychotic rages and have to be put down like rabid dogs). A unit of Thunder Warriors would be a pain in the ass to maintain. You never know who's going to physically deteriorate or mentally flip out (maybe both at the same time).

And the better individual fighter does not make the better soldier.

Let's be frank here, name any group of skilled, individual warriors or berserkers in history which have performed well? Dacians? Crushed by the Legions (took a while though), Spartans? Attrition against more easily replaceable armies. Samurai? Conscript armies with superior formation and cohesion. The list goes on and on.

The artwork of Space Marines likes to play up their individual "champion" nature, but in truth, such a soldier is not very effective on the large scale, and will be defeated by an anonymous, but disciplined, organized and well led blob of men with guns.

A Space Marine's true strength is their tactical flexibility and ability to perform precision warfare with absolutely lethality and effectiveness; the whole be the scalpel thing. A Thunder Warrior is a Khorne Beserker who has somehow become even angrier. They're purpose is to bludgeon the enemy to death with sheer force, and operate with dubious strategy and cohesion. Not bad to unify squabbling post-apocalyptic despots on Earth, not the best Galaxy Conquering Super Army. Note that in all the stories they appear in fighting Astartes, they tend to lose despite their individual ferocity.

Much like how Cadians keep on managing to not lose the Cadian Gate. They die a lot, but they still have a pretty good track record for coming out on top.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
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You could probably add tactical intelligence to the list of advantages SM have over TW

 Tengri wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
...

You could probably add tactical intelligence to the list of advantages SM have over TW

I felt that was a given when I described TW as "Angrier Khorne Beserkers."

I mean, where do you go from there? Angry Marine Berserkers infused with the power of Khorne himself?

One can't get less subtle or tactically efficiency as a berserker.

Eh 40k isn't about effective, but the rule of cool. If they wanted effected power armored soldiers they would keep the helm and and not drop into melee every fight.

I think TW were always better then SM, but then the first SM from the rogue trader era if what I have been told is true were little more then humans with power armor. So many things from the yer old days of 40k are iffy.

I do think they have moved toward the idea with the HH books and newer stuff that TW were bigger and meaner, tougher and all around harder to control, keep from killing everything, going mad and more or less falling apart. That might not have always been true, but looks to be the way they are going now.

 b1soul wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
In HH Betrayal, there is a story about the War Hounds being sent to clear out a compound. That appearently had some TWs in it as well. When they later find the bodies of the Thunder Warriors, they find 3-4 times their number of dead astartes around them. While not exactly average vs average it does go a long way to show that Thunder Warriors were most likely the better fighters and or just tougher.

If that's the case then the main disadvantage of TW is most likely instability

They appear to have short unpredictable life-spans. Moreover, they're mentally unstable (I assume they're prone to psychotic rages and have to be put down like rabid dogs). A unit of Thunder Warriors would be a pain in the ass to maintain. You never know who's going to physically deteriorate or mentally flip out (maybe both at the same time).

The Thunder Warriors were only supposed to be for reclaiming Terra, perhaps the mental degradation was some form of control that the Emperor had bred into them so as to reduce any issues when the need to eliminate them would arise. They would either be dead or be nuts, which would give the Emperor a good reason to want to kill them, you couldn't have a mental Thunder Warrior running around unchecked. The Emperor seems to have created them with a genetic instability to shorten their lifespans.

I guess you would have to know what sort of frame of mind the Thunder Warriors were in at this time, apart from being insane. Was there any sense of self preservation, did they feel pain, were their systems pushed beyond their boundaries?

Bhabu and Ghota are certainly a bit unhinged, but they don't appear to be crazy ass nut jobs.

Bhabu is also the Thunder Warrior, the Lightning Bearer so I guess he is the best of the Thunder Warriors, Ghota could be a general or Captain or something perhaps?

Kind of makes you wonder how tough the Techno Barbarians that the Thunder Warriors were created to fight are

I think it's more likely the Emperor wanted to maximise the kill count he got for the resources he invested into the TW. Resources must have been limited to some extent I imagine...

I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

Yes, they were inferior. But they were stronger physically.

The 2 can easily go together.


The Astartes are superior because they were strong, but also weren't batgak insane killers. They are level headed super soldiers that can act in an efficient way to take out the enemy. The Thunderwarriors were muscle bound monsters that were pointed in the general direction of the enemy and let loose.

I think it comes down to a basic "version" viewpoint.

Thunder Warriors are version 1.0, Astartes are version 2.0.

1.0 is the best of what was current when it was made. It'll still likely do the job in the days of 2.0, but in a way that is seen as a crude, "get you by even thought there's better method now" way.

Thunder Warriors were the early version of a technology that was later perfected, and so their flaws couldn't be ignored simply because there was no alternative to what was the best of the time. It'd be like going back to Steam-powered cars over gasoline- flaws aren't so bad, or even perceived as such, when you don't know any better.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought Thunder Warriors were inferior to Astartes and Custodes. Aren't they some kind of proto-Astartes?

Yes, they were inferior. But they were stronger physically.

The 2 can easily go together.

I see. They were probably big super-soldiers but didn't have the 16 additional organs that give Astartes various powers.

One has to wonder if barely leashed super soldiers had to be used, what kind of powerful foe needed that level of aggression?

I would think it reasonable that during the age of super-weapons, the common man would be extremely fearful of doing battle without the most
potent of equipment and the most involved of training programs. (Or battle at all with the raw power of those weapons!) The TW solve both issues,
simply by being the brutes that they were. Fearless-madmen who needed no real training, just some basic equipment and an opponent to bash.

If you were the Emperor, would you desire to babysit your new warriors, and thus loose valuable time and resources holding their hands or
would you rather point and release, giving yourself ample time to reinvest into new toys and plans? And this method was particularly effective from
keeping the Emperor from being held accountable for the TW's actions and allowed him to 'convince' the unruly factions to unite behind his banner
without any further effort. (It might also explain why he was inspired to create the Primarchs and why the Legions where so influenced by them).

As far as fighting goes; Warriors traditionally were fantastic one on one fighters, but lacked the discipline to continue a fight once the enemy fled the field,
or fight protracted battles. Soldiers are the sum of their parts, individually weak, but together harder than steel against both superior odds and impossible battle.
They are also capable of self-initiative, something you would never see a warrior doing without a face to bash.

Besides, with fighting the Custodes are hands down the best, if least proven of the three. They guard the freakin' big E. They have the best of both worlds (warrior and soldier) plus the best equipment and training possible. On top of that, I would imagine them some if not the most stellar individuals ever born. You wouldn't trust someone easily capable of being tainted to guard the 'god' of mankind would you?

 Bloody Adair wrote:
One has to wonder if barely leashed super soldiers had to be used, what kind of powerful foe needed that level of aggression?

At the time, Terra was overrun by juiced-up, cyborged-up bionic techno barbarians that were very bit as brutal as the Thunder Warriors.

Besides, with fighting the Custodes are hands down the best, if least proven of the three. They guard the freakin' big E. They have the best of both worlds (warrior and soldier) plus the best equipment and training possible. On top of that, I would imagine them some if not the most stellar individuals ever born. You wouldn't trust someone easily capable of being tainted to guard the 'god' of mankind would you?

Custodes are not really soldiers, and are inferior in this aspect to Space Marines.