I think its Arthur C. Clarke. maybe wrong though.

One of my thought is that Eldar might be cooler if they where a low tech race with a lot of magic. It helps carve out a new roll after the tau took a lot of their old one.

The way I see it is the tech kings, hands down are Necrons. The Eldar are close behind, except they had someone boost them up to start with and then went a diffident route then the necron. It is still leaps and bounds above the IoM.

The Tau honestly are roughly on par with the IoM. However the chief diffidence is tau know what they hell they are doing and are not held back by a hooky religion. They will surpass the Iom and in many eras have, in other era's mot so much.


On the "Any technology, suitably advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." quote it was indeed Arthur C. Clarke.

And that is what ya get with the Eldar and the Necrons, it is pure magic as you are incapable of understanding it. The Eldar seems more magic just because of the trappings they have added that please them.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't think ANY other race in the galaxy managed to make fully autonomous machines, not even the Necrons who arguably ARE machines, without binding souls in some method or another.

Scarabs, Wraiths, Tomb Spyders, Tomb Stalkers, etc.

The Tau's weakness in space is of some consideration when ranking them.

At the end of the day, orbital advancement is the key mark of power in 40k; ground battles are to seize objectives, but the option always exists to simply glass it from orbit, for most races anyways. Not preferable, but available.

The Tau in space have little real capacity to stand toe to toe with any of the big naval powers in 40k; they have nothing of comparable size and power to ships of the lines used by the Imperium, to say nothing of Eldar or Necron vessels. Their escorts and various frigates/cruisers are effective combatants, but lack of FTL and sophisticated, apocalyptic scale weapons employed by other powers means they're limited in what they can do.

The Eldar and the Necrons, well, for the Eldar, their imagination and manpower are the chief limitations. Otherwise, blow up a star, change the course of time, obliterate a whole star system without anyone so much as noticing, sure, no problem. The Necrons, well, they can shut down the entire galaxy by turning off some switches.

The Tau? Pulse rifles are pretty cool, I'm sure they'll fair well against races which can manipulate the fabric of reality, or reduce all biological matter on a planet into foetid, decayed mush in moments, and then incinerated from orbit. In terms of the true effectiveness of their military power, the Tau don't really have any do-or-die campaign experience, no great test of their best versus another race's best.

In terms of potential, they've got more than almost everyone else in terms of tech, but little in expansion. Lack of FTL means, logistically, even if the Imperium collapsed tomorrow, and every man, woman and child died instantly, the Tau have a strict upper limit in expansion and power, otherwise their empire would become as unwieldy as the Imperium while holding a fraction of the power and territory. They'd stagnate and collapse, more likely than not, just like the Imperium, or at least fragment politically.

Logistics make an army, a country, and an Empire. The Tau, compared to everyone else, have piss poor potential to establish logistic chains, or defend them. Their tech has not advanced sufficiently in scale or range to make them a real contender. They'll kick ass in a firefight or a skirmish, even in some large battles on the ground, but in a campaign of galactic domination, they have no technological capacity to compete.

I'd just like to point out that tau are mentioned no where in the topic of this thread. Just want to point that out.

nomotog wrote:
I'd just like to point out that tau are mentioned no where in the topic of this thread. Just want to point that out.

You can't really discuss the relative level of tech of one race without discussing others. Just want to point that out

The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water. The reason the Imperial Guard is running around with lasguns and flak armour is that it's easy to manufacture and maintain. The Imperium operates on a scale the Tau can't possibly hope to match.

IMHO, Imperial technology is effectively on-par with most Eldar technology, though less efficient. In anti-gravity and psychic technology, the Eldar are peerless, though the Tau's own anti-gravity technology would probably give the Eldar a run for their money. The Tau are also on par with the Eldar regarding plasma technology. Apart from plasma, railgun, and anti-gravity technology, the Tau are generally on-par with the Imperium, though they're outclassed in psychic technology, and overall military and large-scale/interstellar capability. However, no species comes close to rivaling the Necrons, except in psychic engineering, which they completely lack.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water.

To be totally fair, the Tau if given or found the same tech would at lest learn to build it. The Admech has done more the hurt technological innovation within the IoM then anything.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water.

To be totally fair, the Tau if given or found the same tech would at lest learn to build it. The Admech has done more the hurt technological innovation within the IoM then anything.

Not necessarily true, as during the Great Crusade and up to the end of the Horus Heresy under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth the Adeptus Mechanicus was actually re-discovering and developing new technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. It can be said that the achievements (both technological and otherwise) made during the two centuries of the Great Crusade are among the few things keeping the Imperium together - I dare say the post-Heresy Imperium has not surpassed the achievements of the Great Crusade, it has only built on them.

nomotog wrote:
One of my thought is that Eldar might be cooler if they where a low tech race with a lot of magic. It helps carve out a new roll after the tau took a lot of their old one.

I really like the OP and I am sorry that almost none of the replies seem to have paid attention to it. I also appreciate brevity, please become the only poster on the internet.

nomotog wrote:
Is there much overlap between craftworld tech and dark eldar tech?

the DE manufacture things, as they have the manpower(clones and slaves)
the CWE grow things, which takes longer but less manpower

some of their tech is similar in function (dark lance and bright lance) but the means of creation is completely different.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

@ AtoMaki: Sunkiller machine?

Another Ward contribution, the Celestial Orrery is basically the technology equivalent of Kaldor Draigo, a device capable of causing any star anywhere to go supernova with the press of a button. Yes, it's that stupid.

Necrons are the most technological race.

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

@ AtoMaki: Sunkiller machine?

Another Ward contribution, the Celestial Orrery is basically the technology equivalent of Kaldor Draigo, a device capable of causing any star anywhere to go supernova with the press of a button. Yes, it's that stupid.

I was aware of the Celestial Orrery, I just didn't make that connection when I read "Sunkiller machine."

Yeah, I do ever so like that the Necrons, along with becoming emocrons, now have the capacity to destroy Terra with the press of a button.

This is good fluff. Yes. No doubt.

I'm being sarcastic.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water.

To be totally fair, the Tau if given or found the same tech would at lest learn to build it. The Admech has done more the hurt technological innovation within the IoM then anything.

Not necessarily true, as during the Great Crusade and up to the end of the Horus Heresy under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth the Adeptus Mechanicus was actually re-discovering and developing new technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. It can be said that the achievements (both technological and otherwise) made during the two centuries of the Great Crusade are among the few things keeping the Imperium together - I dare say the post-Heresy Imperium has not surpassed the achievements of the Great Crusade, it has only built on them.

That is not the same empire. They were advancing or at lest gaining ground, making new things, improving things. However without someone to strong arm the admech the "faith" has taken over, Rarely do they innovate and often they really have no clue what they are doing. After the HH the admech have stalled and curtailed tech advancement to the point of not even understanding some of the most used tech. They can not make some of the stuff they used in the crusade much less the "holy" dark age tech. I say you are dead wrong the post Heresy Imperium has not built upon anything, its slowly allowed it to die.

 Tomten wrote:
Necrons are the most technological race.

Absolutely. i guess the better question to ask is who is the second most tech advanced. The eldar are so far out that their tech is dependant on their psionic abilities. though it isnt any less advanced since we cant use it. i guess the best argument to be made is, and i mean this as no offense if you know an exception, but the elderly and new tech. my grandparents have an extremely tough time with computers and my parents with smart phones. just because they cant use it wont make any less of tech. so in first we have concious machines. and in two it seems that we have people who have melded their tech with themselves. up next would be between the Tau and the IoM.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water.

To be totally fair, the Tau if given or found the same tech would at lest learn to build it. The Admech has done more the hurt technological innovation within the IoM then anything.

Not necessarily true, as during the Great Crusade and up to the end of the Horus Heresy under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth the Adeptus Mechanicus was actually re-discovering and developing new technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. It can be said that the achievements (both technological and otherwise) made during the two centuries of the Great Crusade are among the few things keeping the Imperium together - I dare say the post-Heresy Imperium has not surpassed the achievements of the Great Crusade, it has only built on them.

That is not the same empire. They were advancing or at lest gaining ground, making new things, improving things. However without someone to strong arm the admech the "faith" has taken over, Rarely do they innovate and often they really have no clue what they are doing. After the HH the admech have stalled and curtailed tech advancement to the point of not even understanding some of the most used tech. They can not make some of the stuff they used in the crusade much less the "holy" dark age tech. I say you are dead wrong the post Heresy Imperium has not built upon anything, its slowly allowed it to die.

True to a certain extent...but I disagree with it not being the same empire; rather its the same empire but lost its way.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
IMHO, Imperial technology is effectively on-par with most Eldar technology, though less efficient. In anti-gravity and psychic technology, the Eldar are peerless, though the Tau's own anti-gravity technology would probably give the Eldar a run for their money. The Tau are also on par with the Eldar regarding plasma technology. Apart from plasma, railgun, and anti-gravity technology, the Tau are generally on-par with the Imperium, though they're outclassed in psychic technology, and overall military and large-scale/interstellar capability. However, no species comes close to rivaling the Necrons, except in psychic engineering, which they completely lack.

Do you have any source on Imperium being on par with Eldar? Pretty much everywhere I read about it says Eldar tech is so advanced it looks like magic to humans.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
IMHO, Imperial technology is effectively on-par with most Eldar technology, though less efficient. In anti-gravity and psychic technology, the Eldar are peerless, though the Tau's own anti-gravity technology would probably give the Eldar a run for their money. The Tau are also on par with the Eldar regarding plasma technology. Apart from plasma, railgun, and anti-gravity technology, the Tau are generally on-par with the Imperium, though they're outclassed in psychic technology, and overall military and large-scale/interstellar capability. However, no species comes close to rivaling the Necrons, except in psychic engineering, which they completely lack.

Do you have any source on Imperium being on par with Eldar? Pretty much everywhere I read about it says Eldar tech is so advanced it looks like magic to humans.

As I said, it was my personal opinion. Except in anti-gravity, plasma, and psychic technology, of course. The primary difference is one of efficiency - Eldar technology is undoubtedly of superior design. Most likely because the current level of Imperial technology are incomplete replicas of Golden Age and Great Crusade designs, both of which are derived from the Void Dragon's influence. If the Imperium ever figured how to completely replicate and mass produce those designs, only the Necrons could stop them.

No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.


The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

True. The post-Heresy Imperium is a slowly crumbling parody of the promise of the Great Crusade.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

The Tau are not really much more technologically advanced than the IoM, just their technology is more evenly distrubuted through society and better understood.

According to certain sources, the Tau is just as advanced as the Orks (or, to better say, the Orks are just as advanced, as the Tau). And if you think about this, what the heck has the Tau what the others don't (in terms of technology)? "Battlesuits" are commonplace (Imperial power armours), "railguns" are twenty-minutes-into-the-future tech (Eldar shuriken catapults are essentially hand-held, rapid firing railguns) aaaand... I can't recall anything else. On the other side, the Tau doesn't have: teleportation, lance weapons, city sized walkers, actual city walkers, artillery (LOL? LOL!), normal spaceships, and planet-killer weaponry.

So currently, the tech-ranking should be something like this:
- Necrons
- Eldar/Dark Eldar
- IoM/Tyranids
- Tau/Orks

Orks have teleporters, city-sized warkers and artillery. Don't know what you mean my normal spaceships, but assuming you mean with warp drive, orks have them too.
Still debate whether they made said warp drive or not, though.


Using the OP's definition of 'magic weapons' then Eldar are about mid-tier, as most of their weapons, if not all (in the case with Eldar, Not Dark Eldar or Exodites), are made psychically. DE weapons are made normally using slaves, exodites depend


as a whole, though, the eldar race is, on average, about high/mid to high in terms of tech

psh. tech masters here are orks. Most efficient killing machines since the dawn of time.

 cormadepanda wrote:
psh. tech masters here are orks. Most efficient killing machines since the dawn of time.

Orks are dangerous and unpredictable opponents to be sure...but efficient? Wrong - Necrons are.

Well, they are machines... The Necrons, I mean

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well, they are machines... The Necrons, I mean

Exactly. Living machines. And the basis for Humanity's famed and dreaded Men of Iron.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

Exactly, the imperium may have some truly powerful technology, but because they have no idea how it works it means they aren't advanced, it means that humanity at the time of the dark age of technology was. Even then, pretty much all imperium technology relies on brute strength. It has none of the finnesse, precision or efficiency that the eldar, necrons and tau have. This precision shows who the true masters of technology are.

reddwarf54 wrote:

Exactly, the imperium may have some truly powerful technology, but because they have no idea how it works it means they aren't advanced, it means that humanity at the time of the dark age of technology was.

Your statement is kinda confusing. Please clarify.

EDIT: Which is why I the Great Crusade-era Imperium holds more appeal for me. Between the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and the Primarchs, the Imperial Truth, and so many other things the post-Heresy Imperium has so foolishly discarded, IMHO no 41st Millennium faction can hope to stand against that young and vigorous empire.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
The main reason for that phobia would have to do with the Men of Iron, you know? Nothing quiet like your servants and the backbone of the Old Empire rising up and selling you out Skynet style.

I hope that Tau are heading towards a similar event. It would serve them right for not respecting the machine spirits of their technology.

The Warp is an observable, natural phenomenon which many have been able to get repeatable effects from (FTL, for example).

Eldar psychic mastery is therefore science and not magic.

Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

They are missing searchlights on their vehicles.

Having hyper-fast skimmer vehicles with no headlights is why the Eldar are a dying race.

 Daba wrote:


Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

More like Murphy's Third Law embodied.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

Is this your opinion too? Again, all I have read about the subject says how awesome Eldar tech is compared to human's.
Also, wasn't technology from Dark Age better than Golden Age?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Bloody Adair wrote:
The main reason for that phobia would have to do with the Men of Iron, you know? Nothing quiet like your servants and the backbone of the Old Empire rising up and selling you out Skynet style.

I hope that Tau are heading towards a similar event. It would serve them right for not respecting the machine spirits of their technology.

Well, since machine spirits do not exist and one would have to be particularly stupid to bestow a machine with true sentience without giving it equal rights i would say...erm, yes, Hope is the first step on the path to disapointment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

Is this your opinion too? Again, all I have read about the subject says how awesome Eldar tech is compared to human's.
Also, wasn't technology from Dark Age better than Golden Age?

Both ages are one and the same. Besides that, the idea that human tech comes from the Voiddragon, an entity which was more or less destroyed 60 million years ago, is fanspeculation and largely unsupported, even by Mechanicum from which it seems to originate.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

The issue being the IoM never lived during the dark age and Dark age humans lived with Eldar at the height of the Eldar race. The Human great crusade tech was not human dark age tech, not by a very, very long shot. And the current IoM tech is a long ways off from even Crusade era tech. The Eldar had sixty million years to refine their own tech base, dark age humans were boot strapped into poor copies of Necron tech. The Crusade era humans were children playing with dark age toys very few understood, the Emperor knowing more about it then most but even he could not grasp Eldar tech( he tried and failed)

You are counting crusade era and dark age tech as the same thing, they are not. Crusade era tech is well below Dark age technology, that itself is well below that of the Eldar.

One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration. The rhino, for example is an ancient design, and is very rugged, highly adaptable, and simple. its a very very good design that gets the job done. While it may be technologically backwards, it is nontheless a very good transport. A more advanced vehicle, such as a DE raider, is certainly more technologically advanced, but is more lightly armoured, easier to damage and far more vulnerable to small arms.
The very fact that the IoM continues to survive, despite the backwards nature of its society, despite the fact that technological innovation is almost nonexistant, and despite the fact that you could say the technology base is arguably inferior, suggests that their vehicles are well designed, and they still have the ability to manufacture, still have the ability to organise and so forth.

Also, don't forget that a technological advantage can derive from the most simple of things, and isn't necessarily related to how good your weapons or armour are, advantages can derive from organisation, and communication.
When the German army rolled straight over the French and British in 1940, the main advantage the germans had wasn't that their tanks were better (they were worse) not that their planes were better (they weren't) not that their artillery was better (it wasn't) it was due to the simple fact that every single german unit, and vehicle had a 2 way radio, so while the better armed and armoured french tanks had to communicate with flags, or simply get out and run over to their command tank for instructions, The germans could simply get their instructions by radio, and coordinate close cooperation between different arms.

So, yes, the Eldar, necrons, and arguably Tau have a higher level of technology than the IoM, but its not significantly better (like machineguns versus a unit of pikemen) The IoM has more basic technology, but also well designed equipment that does the job

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

madtankbloke wrote:
One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration.

Those "Ancient" designs however are from a time where the technology was much more advanced then the current IoM tech level. They were designed ( mostly likely by A.I systems) to be rugged and easily crafted by lower tech worlds. The IoM more or less uses an "Idiots guide" made by people far move advanced then they.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration.

Those "Ancient" designs however are from a time where the technology was much more advanced then the current IoM tech level. They were designed ( mostly likely by A.I systems) to be rugged and easily crafted by lower tech worlds. The IoM more or less uses an "Idiots guide" made by people far move advanced then they.

Incorrect. The STCs which you call 'idiots guides' were designed for use by people who didn't know how the designs in the STCs worked. That's why they were made to simply pump out schematics for designs as needed. In fact, it can be argued that STCs were designed for such situations as the Imperium is in.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The issue being the IoM never lived during the dark age and Dark age humans lived with Eldar at the height of the Eldar race. The Human great crusade tech was not human dark age tech, not by a very, very long shot. And the current IoM tech is a long ways off from even Crusade era tech. The Eldar had sixty million years to refine their own tech base, dark age humans were boot strapped into poor copies of Necron tech. The Crusade era humans were children playing with dark age toys very few understood, the Emperor knowing more about it then most but even he could not grasp Eldar tech( he tried and failed)

And yet their achievements are the only things keeping the tottering Imperium together. You underestimate 31k Humans too much.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


Incorrect. The STCs which you call 'idiots guides' were designed for use by people who didn't know how the designs in the STCs worked. That's why they were made to simply pump out schematics for designs as needed. In fact, it can be argued that STCs were designed for such situations as the Imperium is in.

The Term STC could mean a few things and is often used as a "throw away" term for plans or anything from the dark age really. STC as it is commonly used seems to mean blue prints from the dark age, often step by step idiot proof ones. From the back lore it looks to me a "full" STC was more then likely a self away A.I powered nano factory that cracked out items as needed with what it had around. Most STC the IoM uses are those recovered from colonies, sent on colony ships and yes made to be "Idiot guides" for folks that did not totally understand them.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


And yet their achievements are the only things keeping the tottering Imperium together. You underestimate 31k Humans too much.

Not at all, force and power held it together then and do so now. Most of the civilized nations the IoM took down in the crusades seemed to look at them as little more then what they are, Techno barbarians with little or no understanding of the machines they use. They however did have numbers on there side, even when they did not have Superior technology. The First few HH books showed 2 or three cultures that easily rivaled or surpassed the IoM technology. They however did not have the numbers.

You keep thinking the crusade era Humans were "advanced" when really everything they had was built upon recovered dark age tech. Even Space Marine armor is of Dark Age design.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


Not at all, force and power held it together then and do so now. Most of the civilized nations the IoM took down in the crusades seemed to look at them as little more then what they are, Techno barbarians with little or no understanding of the machines they use. They however did have numbers on there side, even when they did not have Superior technology. The First few HH books showed 2 or three cultures that easily rivaled or surpassed the IoM technology. They however did not have the numbers.

You keep thinking the crusade era Humans were "advanced" when really everything they had was built upon recovered dark age tech. Even Space Marine armor is of Dark Age design.

Actually, they did understand their technology at the time, otherwise they wouldn't have developed them quickly enough to expand and keep up with the Emperor's ambitions. True, the Mechanicum also had dogma and doctrine back then, but at the time the only prohibition was AI technology. So long as the prohibition was honored, creativity and innovation were actively pursued.

No, they understood some of the tech, far from all . They had lost more understanding then most races ever learn. Crusade era humans were techno barbarians without full understanding of the tech they used. A read at almost any of the HH novels tells you this. Do you think the archaic terms and backward thinking is new for the IoM? It was there from day 1.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No, they understood some of the tech, far from all . They had lost more understanding then most races ever learn. Crusade era humans were techno barbarians without full understanding of the tech they used. A read at almost any of the HH novels tells you this. Do you think the archaic terms and backward thinking is new for the IoM? It was there from day 1.

Things were already making a turn for the better when the Horus Heresy broke out, with the establishment of the Council of Terra, the Order of Remembrancers, and the construction of the Imperial Webway.

I would disagree with that. They understood some things, but honestly it was not getting better. They were still barbarians with some tech. As for the webway thing, that just goes to show not even the Emperor himself had the slightest clue how it worked. He was playing with things he did not understand.

The important consideration is that while the early Imperium and the current one both lacked complete understanding, the Crusade era was about developement, of moving forwards. Rather than slowly declining like the current IoM, they were taking steps forwards.

They didn't fully grasp the tech they were using, but they were trying to understand it. The current IoM and AdMech are, by and large, not.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
As for the webway thing, that just goes to show not even the Emperor himself had the slightest clue how it worked. He was playing with things he did not understand.

Huh? What are you talking about? The Emperor knew how the Webway functioned; the Mechanicum simply couldn't replicate its construction materials at the time. It was Magnus who didn't understand and ruptured it in his tragic attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The important consideration is that while the early Imperium and the current one both lacked complete understanding, the Crusade era was about developement, of moving forwards. Rather than slowly declining like the current IoM, they were taking steps forwards.

THIS. The Great Crusade-era Imperium was after all only the beginning of what was supposed to a new dawn for Mankind across the stars.

No, he did not understand it. He kinda grasped it. He forced his way in and kinda tried to half ass a gateway. Magnus breached it, however it was the Emperors failed understanding which kept him from closing it and why it is still breached. He really did not understand it or the breach would have been sealed and he would not have tried to force one himself.

I will agree the crusade era IoM were trying to recover what was lost. But they did not innovate as much as recover. And they really did not have all that much of the dark age tech "recovered"

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No, he did not understand it. He kinda grasped it. He forced his way in and kinda tried to half ass a gateway. Magnus breached it, however it was the Emperors failed understanding which kept him from closing it and why it is still breached. He really did not understand it or the breach would have been sealed and he would not have tried to force one himself.

Incorrect. The Emperor understood the Webway, but Imperial technology was incapable of fully applying the theory. They couldn't close it since the technology to do so (the Golden Throne) was lagging. Heck, IRL some scientific theories can't be applied yet since the technology hasn't caught up. Same problem.

Sigh, if he understood it he could freaking make it. No, he grasped the theory of how it worked, which is not the same thing as understanding how to build such a thing.

Its kinda like saying well..I know you can in theory build a warp drive.....so me without training or ya know gear will do so in my basement.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Sigh, if he understood it he could freaking make it. No, he grasped the theory of how it worked, which is not the same thing as understanding how to build such a thing.

Its kinda like saying well..I know you can in theory build a warp drive.....so me without training or ya know gear will do so in my basement.

Understanding and grasping the theory are one and the same thing. Applying it is another matter entirely.

EDIT: As for building a ward drive, you need a fusion plant, an ion drive/fusion torch/anti-matter engine, maneuvering thrusters, an element zero core, a hull, furnishings, computer controls, life-support, heat sinks, and kinetic barriers. No pressure

Oh and radiation shields.

No, no it is not. Not in the slightest. the rough outline of how something works in thory and how ya know it really works is not the same. The webway was leaps and bounds above even dark age tech.

The Emperor played with something he did not understand, could not build and in the end could not control and got burned , hard. He brute forced an opening with his mind, knowing humanity could not maintain or build the webway.

No, he had no freaking clue what he was really doing. A monkey with a gun.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The Emperor played with something he did not understand, could not build and in the end could not control and got burned , hard. He brute forced an opening with his mind, knowing humanity could not maintain or build the webway.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Emperor with Magnus? Because from what I read regarding the Imperial Webway, the Emperor understood how the Webway worked, but didn't have the necessary level of technology. And while Magnus was ultimately meant to inherit the Webway, the Emperor rejected his offer of assistance because the Emperor was apparently using a trial-and-error method to complete his construction of the Imperial Webway. Trial-and-error is the most reliable scientific procedure, even if somewhat wasteful in terms of resources.

No, he had no freaking clue what he was really doing. A monkey with a gun.

That makes all of us 'monkeys with guns', since even IRL only tech experts understand the details of how our tech works. And you can't really call the only man the Powers of Chaos ever feared a 'monkey'.

No he did not. In his arrogance he though "Hey this is something I can do with my mind! If a filthy xeno can do it, I can do it" and he failed. Sure Magnus broke it, but if he understood it at all, then he could have sealed it or ya know not been stupid enough to half ass a way into something he did not understand.

The Big E was smart, but he was also damned arrogant. He really did not understand the webway, he grasped what it was and in his arrogance though he could do alone with his mind what another race had done sixty million years before,

And because of that earth id a gateway for demons now. But ya know..he totally meant to do that.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not. In his arrogance he though "Hey this is something I can do with my mind! If a filthy xeno can do it, I can do it" and he failed. Sure Magnus broke it, but if he understood it at all, then he could have sealed it or ya know not been stupid enough to half ass a way into something he did not understand.

Well, the Golden Throne's systems were also damaged by Magnus' actions. And with the Horus Heresy on, containment and the war would be first priority as opposed to repair. Unfortunately, as we all know, he didn't really get the chance for that.

The Big E was smart, but he was also damned arrogant. He really did not understand the webway, he grasped what it was and in his arrogance though he could do alone with his mind what another race had done sixty million years before.

He's an immortal, of course he'd be arrogant. And he didn't do it alone. He had the Mechanicum behind him and probably obtained the Void Dragon's technological prowess when he defeated it.

Anyway, the Golden Throne that was the core of the Imperial Webway is/was an experimental device; the construction of the Imperial Webway was apparently a trial-and-error scheme to advance the technology to meet the theory.

And because of that earth id a gateway for demons now. But ya know..he totally meant to do that.

That was Magnus' fault.

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I guess we shall have to agree to disagree.

So it would seem...I hate it when people use this line.

I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

For me he understood the theory but lacked the technology and chance to put it into motion.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the Eldar didn't develop the Webway either. It was given to them by the Old Ones, IIRC.

He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

The Necron's did have gates that could breach it but as soon as they did the Webway reacted sending things to the breach and cutting off sections until the breached area was closed. It will cut off areas where daemons are found, locking them there. They can break through again, but it will just repeatedly cut it off every time they do.

SkyD wrote:
He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

Partly correct...they couldn't replicate the construction material because, well, they couldn't analyze any samples. And they never did reach the primary network; I'm sure both the Webway's intelligences and the Eldar would have realized the psychic might of the Emperor entering the network.

gh05tdemon wrote:
The eldar are by far the most advanced. to the point we dont even recognize it as tech. while yes the Tau are advanced they still rely on their hands to activate everything, not their brains like the eldar. The only race that seems equal with IoM tech would be the orks, necrons are robots, tyranids need to atleast undertsand themselves and what to eat to make them more fit, meaning they have to understand the tech, even if it is useless they need to know what to eat.

Don't the Tyranids just eat everything? I don't think they technologically advanced. But in terms of pure biological evolution, they are the icing on the cake and the cake, which they have, and eat it too. I wish I had some cake now.

But yes, the Eldar are the most advanced in technology, if judged by their success in battle, and I think they'd probably whoop the crap out of Tau any day.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:

gh05tdemon wrote:
The eldar are by far the most advanced. to the point we dont even recognize it as tech. while yes the Tau are advanced they still rely on their hands to activate everything, not their brains like the eldar. The only race that seems equal with IoM tech would be the orks, necrons are robots, tyranids need to atleast undertsand themselves and what to eat to make them more fit, meaning they have to understand the tech, even if it is useless they need to know what to eat.

Don't the Tyranids just eat everything? I don't think they technologically advanced. But in terms of pure biological evolution, they are the icing on the cake and the cake, which they have, and eat it too. I wish I had some cake now.

But yes, the Eldar are the most advanced in technology, if judged by their success in battle, and I think they'd probably whoop the crap out of Tau any day.

Necrons have the most advanced technology. From what I know, Necrons kick Eldar ass in BFG (since pointy-ears don't use shields and holo-fields have no effect on Necron weapons) and probably do too on the TT.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I think is try to use the webway was always doomed to fail as he was playing with something he simply did not understand.

Ya may dislike it but what else is there to say? You think the Big E knew what he was doing and any thing bad that may have resulted had nothing to do with him. I think he did not and the fault lays with him. Neither of us will change stance so why spend pages more or less going " did so...did not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SkyD wrote:
He seemed to know the Golden Throne wasn't made of the correct material that was required and instead of waiting and trying to develop it, they forged ahead and just used the Emperor's psychic might to hold it together, Magnus broke that shield the Emperor had erected. And things came through. But I think in its development over the years, it indicates the Emperor made a mistake, he hadn't broken into the Eldar Webway, the one the Eldar use which is functioning, but instead into a part that was already locked off, so in reality, he wasted resources breaking into something which was already broken, it wouldn't have led anywhere at all. The Emperor knew what it was in effect, knew what it could be used for, but lacked the ability to understand it and figure out how it worked.

This is my view as well. He just assumed he could figure it out as he went along. He was incorrect.

@HunterinDarkness

Something's wrong with your quote...you quoted yourself. And alright, since this is gonna devolve into mud slinging, let's just agree to disagree (which I really dislike since it doesn't really resolve anything).

Back on-topic, Necrons have the most advanced technology, seeing as they're the only faction with a guarantee of wiping the floor with the Eldar.

EDIT: Trial-and-error is the most reliable investigative method. Nothing wrong with that.

Oops...no clue how that happened. Should have been your quote there. I was not muddslinging, but some times ya have two opposing view and what else can you do if both sides simply will not change stance?

I agree the necron are top ol the hep. They could have killed the Eldar off before but the silent king was just done. Mostly depressed , tired and ashamed. Now the Eldar are still top tier power, but no longer have the numbers they once commanded.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Oops...no clue how that happened. Should have been your quote there. I was not muddslinging, but some times ya have two opposing view and what else can you do if both sides simply will not change stance?

I know. So let's drop the Emperor understanding and not understanding, already before we devolve into a meaningless argument

I agree the necron are top ol the hep. They could have killed the Eldar off before but the silent king was just done. Mostly depressed , tired and ashamed. Now the Eldar are still top tier power, but no longer have the numbers they once commanded.

And with the Imperium having lost itself and the promise of its youth, the returning Necrons and the arriving Tyranids stand poised to fight over what's left of the blood-stained galaxy.

EDIT: The Imperium is the dominant power, but given its state of decay and stagnation, I'd give a few more centuries at least and maybe a millennium at most before its inevitable fall. Oh well, never been a big fan of last stands, but I suppose going down in flames and glory is better than kneeling before xenos or warp gods...

The IoM is dominate yes, but even they do not control all the space they claim. They are just damned effective about claiming anything they happen to have missed once it pokes its head up

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The IoM is dominate yes, but even they do not control all the space they claim. They are just damned effective about claiming anything they happen to have missed once it pokes its head up

True...I'd bet an STC the Emperor and Malcador knew this would happen sooner or later. The conquest of the Webway wasn't done out of arrogance or a whim, it was out of need. Warp travel and astro-telepathy can only take the Imperium so far.

I think if the Necrons had been able to travel faster, like the Eldar, well everything would be shiny. Bar the Ork... And Tyranid...

I think Tau are kind of on par with IOM, but are more like "Refine it" to make it lethal to the enemy and not the firer. IOM is kind of Orkish, make it lethal, if 1 in 10 guys die using it, thats alright, he's probably a guardsman... His faith in the Emperor and his faith in his weapon were lacking.

I can't remember it right but I think in Dead Men Walking the Necron weapons wouldn't work for non-Necrons, much like the Dark/Eldar and 2000AD Judges, they had safeguards built into most weapons which stopped them being used by the enemy against them.
It would be interesting to see if the Gauss weapons of Necrons would eventually fail against the Olamic Quietude had they ever met in battle.

@SkyD

Tau cannot decisively defeat or face the Imperium. The difference in power is too great. Not to mention their lack of psychic abilities will render vulnerable against either Chaos, Necrons or the Eldar. After all, who do you think will rule man's heart after the Imperium falls but Chaos?

 Daba wrote:
Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

The Necrons don't need the C'tan to use their technology, and never did.

Even before ever encountering the C'tan, they had technology surpassing the Old Ones.

Indeed, the issue of the Necrotyr vs the old ones was always the webway. That alone meant battle always happened when, where and how the old ones wished it. Hard to beat someone when you can never force them to fight. Once they creaked the webway, it was over for the Old ones.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Indeed, the issue of the Necrotyr vs the old ones was always the webway. That alone meant battle always happened when, where and how the old ones wished it. Hard to beat someone when you can never force them to fight. Once they creaked the webway, it was over for the Old ones.

A lot of blood could have been avoided if those Old Ones had just given the Necrontyr what they wanted, you know, extending their pitifully short lifespans.

I tend to think the old ones simply viewed non-psyker races as less then fully sentient. More or less animals and until the Dolem gates showed up not much a threat. I do agree however, I mean the Necrotry had to be million if not billions of years old before finding the C'tan. Ya had to notice at some point they were not just gonna go away.

It does make me wonder however if by the time the C'tan showed up a good person of the upper class at lest went the cyborg route. They had the tech to do so and it would have extended life as well as make sense as to why they took that leap from biological to fully automated.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I tend to think the old ones simply viewed non-psyker races as less then fully sentient. More or less animals and until the Dolem gates showed up not much a threat.

In other words, the Necrontyr were the 'mon'keigh' of the Old Ones. What do you know...the sins of the children (the Eldar) are the same as the sins of the parent (the Old Ones). Perhaps when Chaos rules Man's heart in the ruins of the Imperium, just like the Old Ones before them the Eldar will come to regret their arrogance towards Humanity. And like the C'tan, the Chaos Powers just might realize the price their pawns demand as recompense in the end to be far greater than they can hope to pay.

well the Eldar are uplifts of the Old ones. It makes sense they would hold the same views as their old masters. Also they were kings of more or less everything for a very long time.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
well the Eldar are uplifts of the Old ones. It makes sense they would hold the same views as their old masters. Also they were kings of more or less everything for a very long time.

Abusive precursors, much?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
@SkyD

Tau cannot decisively defeat or face the Imperium. The difference in power is too great. Not to mention their lack of psychic abilities will render vulnerable against either Chaos, Necrons or the Eldar. After all, who do you think will rule man's heart after the Imperium falls but Chaos?

The Imperium isn't the "top dog" so to speak because of their technology or abilities at war. They're there because they are an STD aimed in a singular direction. They can throw the numbers at what they are fighting. But they suffer because they rapidly expanded without taking into consideration the need to fortify as they go. They spread themselves too thin. By the time the Imperium can organise to get to most planets, they're already long fallen. If the Orks were able to unify under one Warboss, they would spread like an even worse STD than the IOM are.
But had the IOM during the Great Crusade taken the advice of say, the Thousand Sons, who were keen on knowledge and understanding, there wouldn't be a Chaos to fight, they had already encountered splinters from Mankind who had no problems with the Ruinous Powers. The Imperium in its rush to conquer eliminated the knowledge they would require to make an outright defeat. Thanks to the Horus Heresy series of books we learn the Emperor launched the crusade before he had actually united his core world, Terra. (Prospero Burns).

What I was saying in my post above is just on the Tau and Imperial Technology, which is on a similar kind of level. But IOM has factors they are willing to accept in their technology, where as Tau strive for refining and more perfection. The Mechanicus itself is to blame for the stalemate, they do not like people going away from the plan, it is set out as A-B-C. They shun and/or outright kill members who take A-B-C and add D, which refines the power, or increases range, etc. If its not in the plan, its heresy. The Tau, work on their tech when needed.

They don't have the numbers to become a dominant force. They never will, but they do tinker away at developing technology whenever a threat comes up. Given time, like the Olamic Quietude, they could develop battlesuits that have the ability to counter threats automatically. Quietude would be immune to IOM weapons in X (minutes). The immunity shared over an entire force, in no time. They fell because the Space Wolves were a much more ferocious fighting force than they could counter. But the IOM now compared to then, doesn't have the time. A Tau threat must be dealt with in Y time frame, because any longer a Chaos/Ork/Necron/etc threat develops and that takes higher precedence. If the Imperium were to shrink back and fortify and concrete their position then threats from Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar would be better handled. Eliminating the threat of Chaos is harder, they created an environment where the taint of Chaos has an easier ability to thrive. People lose hope or become disheartened by life within the IOM, the Ruinous Powers are there to make it better.

Often and a lot .

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Often and a lot .

What? Abusive precursors? The slaves languishing in the pits of Commoragh know that all too well.

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

You mean that Necrons dont understand electricity?

SkyD wrote:
What I was saying in my post above is just on the Tau and Imperial Technology, which is on a similar kind of level. But IOM has factors they are willing to accept in their technology, where as Tau strive for refining and more perfection. The Mechanicus itself is to blame for the stalemate, they do not like people going away from the plan, it is set out as A-B-C. They shun and/or outright kill members who take A-B-C and add D, which refines the power, or increases range, etc. If its not in the plan, its heresy. The Tau, work on their tech when needed.

Clarification: The Mechanicus shun nonmembers who take ABC and add D. There's plenty of Mechanicus who do research and develop new things. The Divine Light of Sollex, for example, is a group entirely dedicated to improving weapons. They have gravimancy research stations, weapon testing facilities for new designs, and so on. They're not reviled as a cult or seen as particularly unusual beyond their obsession with weaponry. The Tenninites work on upgrading Machine Spirit code, constantly terrified they'll improve it too much and create an AI.

The Imperium is stagnant for a wide variety of compounding factors (Techpriests hoard information rather than distribute new findings, factional infighting within the mechanicus, the Admech's insistence that only a tiny fraction of the populace (namely, the Admech) be allowed to have any idea how anything works and actually actively hunting down rogue scientists, the terrible interstellar communications systems that make it nigh-impossible to share information if they wanted to, etc) but there is not an inherent belief that anything new is evil. There is a view that anything old is better, and that doesn't help, but progress is being made by inches.

 Tomten wrote:

 Daba wrote:

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

You mean that Necrons dont understand electricity?

No. What he's saying is that technology must be seen from the perspective of the user, not outside race. 95% of our technology would be completely useless for blind, deaf, aquatic (acidic?), high gravity, claw-handed race.
The above crab thing from Omicron Persei 8 won't be able to use a computer to play GTA 5 but that doesn't mean computer is suddenly less complex than a knife.

We create our technology that is supposed to be used with sight / hearing and hands / legs.
Eldar create technology that they interact with their minds. No difference.

Oh i see

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

nomotog wrote:

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Not necessarily. The Imperium has gene-encoded safeties on weapons, preventing them from being used to their full potential (ie the Spear of Telesto). This is similar in effect to the Eldar weaponry and technology. It doesn't function in a non-eldar's hands because they are not capable of 'flicking the right switch to arm the weapon'. Yes, there may also be mind/psychic impulses that cause a weapon to fire, but the Imperium uses that just as well. MIU's, Space Marine Power Armor, Dreadnought sarcophagi, and countless other machinery use this same principle.

It could be debated that force weapons (a mixture of psychic and engineering technology) fall under the same thread. Being that they are technologically created, however require a psychic input to activate.

So yes, while the eldar machinery require a psychic impulse to activate it at the very least, that doesn't exactly make it 'magic'. Especially how regimented the eldar are with their psychic abilities. To me it just seems as if their technology was adapted to their physiology, pretty much as Macok described above.

nomotog wrote:

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Eldar stuff still works mechanically, though the psychic activation does provide a nice safety catch or security specifically because it gets in the way.

Their guns still work on the principle of pull the trigger and the mans fall down.

Dark Eldar technology, which have the same principles and knowledge base, do not require any psychic ability to use or even manufacture. They still understand the warp and can construct warp drives (BFG fleet) and use the webway.

Captain Avynn wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Not necessarily. The Imperium has gene-encoded safeties on weapons, preventing them from being used to their full potential (ie the Spear of Telesto). This is similar in effect to the Eldar weaponry and technology. It doesn't function in a non-eldar's hands because they are not capable of 'flicking the right switch to arm the weapon'. Yes, there may also be mind/psychic impulses that cause a weapon to fire, but the Imperium uses that just as well. MIU's, Space Marine Power Armor, Dreadnought sarcophagi, and countless other machinery use this same principle.

It could be debated that force weapons (a mixture of psychic and engineering technology) fall under the same thread. Being that they are technologically created, however require a psychic input to activate.

So yes, while the eldar machinery require a psychic impulse to activate it at the very least, that doesn't exactly make it 'magic'. Especially how regimented the eldar are with their psychic abilities. To me it just seems as if their technology was adapted to their physiology, pretty much as Macok described above.

Putting a gene lock on a weapon is a little different because the weapon dosen't require the lock to be there, it's just something you required because you wanted to. If eldar tech can work with out being physic that's tech. I'm not an expert on eldar tech. It kind of depend on the role the pyker plays in it's operation.

But given that every Eldar is a psyker, having something psychically (sp?) activated is just as normal and mundane to them as something needing hands to operate is to us. Just because i uses a sense or "appendage" most humans don't have doesn't make it magic.

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Tau. I thin they are ABOUT even, with the Tau advancing tech in a different direction than the Eldar with Tau tech being more overall and Eldar tech basically being for pure war purposes (for obvious reasons)

Yeah the IoM is not tech advanced at all really. They used to be, a lot, but the huge technophobia killed that. Most of their tech is really based on religion and old STC's of when they were tech advanced

I would say dark eldar are more advanced than their craftworld cousins, sure they dont grow their weapons, vehicles, and ships but everything else shows that they invest more in technology than craftworld eldar seeing that the DE cant use pskyer abilities in the webway.

If this is hard to read sorry just got back from christmas drinks with family.

Well both eldar are starting with the same tech base. However Dark Eldar simply went another way as they lost the Pskyer powers. But given as the Eldar race as been around 60 million years I do not think the Dark Eldar made anything new, just fell back on stuff they had long ago stopped using.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well both eldar are starting with the same tech base. However Dark Eldar simply went another way as they lost the Pskyer powers. But given as the Eldar race as been around 60 million years I do not think the Dark Eldar made anything new, just fell back on stuff they had long ago stopped using.

Whether its Dark Eldar or the Craftworld Eldar, they're both as stagnant as the Imperium. No real progress, just living in memory of the past.

I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

well at founding it was trying to understand . It knew the basics but did not grasp to much of the dark age stuff, other then a few heads of mars and the Big E.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
well at founding it was trying to understand . It knew the basics but did not grasp to much of the dark age stuff, other then a few heads of mars and the Big E.

Yeah, that's true. Though in the novel Mechanicum, it was clear that they were starting to understand what might be considered as the 'meat' of Mankind's lost technological legacy, and by building/innovating on that (such as the noosphere and the Golden Throne) were beginning to make what could be considered as the first real steps to reclaiming said legacy.

I have yet to read that one, was told it was not well written. I have read the "summary" of it however. I am not a fan of the of the 40k writers, some are...rough reading.

I was however thinking of one of the early HH books, one or two maybe when they run into the tech based Human civ and all SM's and Horus himself was a bit shocked to see all the Humans in SM power armor. That showed to me that most did not understand they were even using dark age tech, but thought it was items the big E or the Admech had crafted for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I have yet to read that one, was told it was not well written. I have read the "summary" of it however. I am not a fan of the of the 40k writers, some are...rough reading.

That's up to the reader though, IMO.

I was however thinking of one of the early HH books, one or two maybe when they run into the tech based Human civ and all SM's and Horus himself was a bit shocked to see all the Humans in SM power armor. That showed to me that most did not understand they were even using dark age tech, but thought it was items the big E or the Admech had crafted for them.

The Emperor most certainly understood (he was alive at the time after all, and even IRL there are indications the Human brain has potentially limitless memory space), and the Mechanicum had a different mind-set at the time: instead of rote learning, understanding and building on what was understood was the law of the day. True, it was still bound by dogma and doctrine, and they did monopolize technology, but they also understood how it worked.

I say some understood, most not all. I mean they knew more then now, but they also most likely were more spilized with the leadership knowing most. Some would have known dark age tech, most would not have but would have known how stuff they were assigned to work on really worked.

Off topic but if ya ever played battletech the old comstar vs the post Tukayyid Comstar is a really good exsample of per and post herasy admech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I say some understood, most not all. I mean they knew more then now, but they also most likely were more spilized with the leadership knowing most. Some would have known dark age tech, most would not have but would have known how stuff they were assigned to work on really worked.

Probably true, that only the magi actually knew how everything (or as close to everything) worked, while the rest only understood their individual specializations. But they did understand: the whole Imperium was working for the future at the time as opposed to living in memory of the past.

Off topic but if ya ever played battletech the old comstar vs the post Tukayyid Comstar is a really good exsample of per and post herasy admech.

Haven't tried that, will have to look it up.

Basically pre Tukayyid Comstar used rout learning, they knew how to make tech work, but it was so rolled up in religion that they really had no clue what they were doing. They had damned high tech, but most of it was simply maintained and built with little real understanding. You said the incantations to holy Blake as you went though the "rites"

After the Battle of Tukayyid, however the new heads more or less banished all the religious mobo jombo and tried to really understand the tech. Which lead to a split, but thats a whole other subject.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Basically pre Tukayyid Comstar used rout learning, they knew how to make tech work, but it was so rolled up in religion that they really had no clue what they were doing. They had damned high tech, but most of it was simply maintained and built with little real understanding. You said the incantations to holy Blake as you went though the "rites"

After the Battle of Tukayyid, however the new heads more or less banished all the religious mobo jombo and tried to really understand the tech. Which lead to a split, but thats a whole other subject.

That's the Adeptus Mechanicus, alright...come to think of it, I read this piece once from an another forum that the Imperium might actually be closer to unlocking the secrets of the Golden Age of Technology. The key? The semi-mythical Ark Mechanicus vessels. Apparently, an Archmagos linked himself to the ship's Machine Spirit and accidentally unlocked some inactive and unknown systems that allowed the ship to easily overpower an Eldar ambush (which the Eldar are almost always guaranteed to win) by itself. Unfortunately, said Archmagos somehow forgot everything once the link to the Machine Spirit was severed. It actually makes sense though, since those ships are even older than the Imperium itself.

even if they Unlocked it, they would not understand it or call it Heresy. Most of the Dark age tech to me seems built upon idea's and a tech base to far left for the admech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
even if they Unlocked it, they would not understand it or call it Heresy. Most of the Dark age tech to me seems built upon idea's and a tech base to far left for the admech.

True...the Great Crusade-era Mechanicum would, but the post-Heresy Adeptus Mechanicus...the only way it wouldn't be heresy or they would actually understand it is if the Ark Mechanicus logic engines unknowingly carry an STC database. Which they can understand; IIRC, a partial STC data transcript (for a combat knife no less) recovered by a pair of Astartes (or was it Guardsmen) led to them becoming instant nobility, as they were both rewarded by the Imperium with an entire planet each. And the STC files for the Land Speeder (recovered from the underground Martian labyrinth) was quickly understood and put into production. As long as its an STC, even the post-Heresy Adeptus Mechanicus should be able to put it to use.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

I disagree. Reading Mechanicum i got that impression that even during the Great Crusade the Mechanicum was steeped into mysticism and dogma. The few techpriests who were truly interested in understanding how their technology worked and even inovated were a minority.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

I disagree. Reading Mechanicum i got that impression that even during the Great Crusade the Mechanicum was steeped into mysticism and dogma. The few techpriests who were truly interested in understanding how their technology worked and even inovated were a minority.

I never said they weren't mired in doctrine and dogma, only that they understood what they working on and with. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

the term STC is so wildy used in 40k who knows what a "Full" STC is. I myself brake them up. Into classes and Types. My class are


Class 1: Base plan- a single plan
Class 2: Small packet of plans - 2 to maybe 6 linked plans
Class 3: Large plan database
Class 4: Interactive database, Most likely A.I driven can offer "help" files on what to us
Class 5: Inter active A.I driven can craft plans on the fly.


And then ya have types
Type A: Data base only
Type B: Factory, must be supplied with the correct materials.
Type C: Nano Factory, just needs some type of raw materials.

So to me what Most find are Type A-1's Just a single data plan or blue print, while a "full" STC would be a Type C-5 and heresy.

Its not an AI, otherwise they'd have been destroyed along with all other AIs after the rebelling Men of Iron were defeated. Closer or probably similar to the semi-sapient Machine Spirits of the Land Raider or Titan war machines. As for the STC classifications, I have three personal understandings:

1) STC transcript - basically just a schematic or written plans/information.

2) Standard Template Construct - the logic engine containing an STC database, and probably contains data for more than one piece of technology.

3) Standard Template Constructor - the same as the second one, but already linked to an automated manufactorum capable of building everything in the database at once as opposed to simply printing out/giving out information on a piece of technology.

EDIT: IMHO, it would be very bad for the Imperium's enemies if the Imperium got hold of either the latter two, since an STC is designed to be simple and easy to understand, and therefore replicate, which the post-Heresy Adeptus Mechanicus does very well.

More or less what I said man. From some of the things they could do. I am betting a full STC is A.I driven and a nano fabber. They seemed to have been mostly small, adapted easily to whatever they had on hand to use and could crank stuff out even on the most primitive worlds.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
More or less what I said man. From some of the things they could do. I am betting a full STC is A.I driven and a nano fabber. They seemed to have been mostly small, adapted easily to whatever they had on hand to use and could crank stuff out even on the most primitive worlds.

Well, technically a Titan's Machine Spirit is a very rudimentary AI, but not sapient enough to rebel unless influenced from the outside (such as a machine curse or by the Princeps/operator). So maybe an STC might be AI-operated, but in such a way that it wouldn't be considered as such by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The way I see it is there is a reason Full STC are so rare. That being after the Iron of man issue most were destroyed, being A.I driven and all. You can forget much in a few thousand years of isolation, including why items are so rare.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The way I see it is there is a reason Full STC are so rare. That being after the Iron of man issue most were destroyed, being A.I driven and all. You can forget much in a few thousand years of isolation, including why items are so rare.

Actually, the fluff is clear as to why STCs are so rare; they were either lost or destroyed in the anarchy of the Old Night.

Yes, I know this..But why try to destroy them? I think it is because of the fear that the A.I's on full STC would "go bad". In the HH we see the IoM only found 1 civ with a fully working STC and they seemed to have been a technocracy. Prob A.I lead honestly.

Lore is to contradictory( Due mostly to poor setting management) to ever know the "truth" ya have to make your choices with 40k.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes, I know this..But why try to destroy them? I think it is because of the fear that the A.I's on full STC would "go bad". In the HH we see the IoM only found 1 civ with a fully working STC and they seemed to have been a technocracy. Prob A.I lead honestly.

Lore is to contradictory( Due mostly to poor setting management) to ever know the "truth" ya have to make your choices with 40k.

They probably weren't destroyed intentionally. Collateral damage, destroyed to prevent them from falling into enemy hands, that kind of thing.

I do not buy that. You had at lest 1 per colony, maybe more. Even during the crusade they found one and finding of that single one lead the admech into the HH. Collateral damage alone does not explain the lose of all of them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not buy that. You had at lest 1 per colony, maybe more. Even during the crusade they found one and finding of that single one lead the admech into the HH. Collateral damage alone does not explain the lose of all of them.

Alternatively, there's also the fact that being an anarchic time, an STC would be of strategic value during the Old Night. It would be carefully hidden, known only to few...but what if those few were killed? There could be many STCs out there, waiting to be discovered in vaults on lost colonies/Imperial worlds, or even in the Martian Labyrinth (or under other Forge Worlds) or the semi-mythical Ark Mechanicus vessels.

As I said man, I do not buy that theory. To me it simply is to thin and does not really fit.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
As I said man, I do not buy that theory. To me it simply is to thin and does not really fit.

Actually, it does. Earth alone was incredibly devastated during the Old Night. The Last Church in particular implied much of the oceans were vaporized in the fighting.

No it does not. You can't not go from a few million to 1 without trying to do so. You will not find a full STC as mankind made sure you would not.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No it does not. You can't not go from a few million to 1 without trying to do so. You will not find a full STC as mankind made sure you would not.

What? Wait a minute, what are you talking about? I was trying to reason that STCs being destroyed/lost in the Old Night is perfectly plausible when you suddenly jumped into 'not finding a complete STC'.

The same thing you are. It simply is not plausible not to find them, unless mankind moved to make sure non where left.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The same thing you are. It simply is not plausible not to find them, unless mankind moved to make sure non where left.

Finding them is gonna be hard to do...the Martian labyrinth alone is infested with mutants and worse. Although the fluff is clear that a complete STC will be all but impossible to find, just fragments or maybe a complete schematic or something along that line.

Yes, hard to find as mankind destoryied or disassembled them after the man of iron issue. As I said, I think they are A.I driven nano fabbers, which keeps with what we know of them from the dark age. They were the pinnacle of mankind's technology.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes, hard to find as mankind destoryied or disassembled them after the man of iron issue. As I said, I think they are A.I driven nano fabbers, which keeps with what we know of them from the dark age. They were the pinnacle of mankind's technology.

The Iron Men were the pinnacle of Human technology, probably just a step below true Necron Warriors (oldcrons). If they had achieved exceedingly-efficient FTL...the Eldar Empire would probably have been destroyed by the Humans. Somehow, they failed to get that part from the Void Dragon.

I disagree, nothing says a FULL STC is not cable of making Men or iron, at lest one BL book has an STC making them in fact. The First Gaunts Ghost book has a Men of Iron STC "factory". I also disagree that the Dark age mankind could have done anything with the Eldar. The Eldar at that time had not fallen, and while they more or less kept to themselves they were at full power. If they could have pulled themselves away from the Orgy that had become their culture they could have annihilated mankind.

No STC's remain because as a simple GW plot device to explain the dystopian Imperium. Nothing more, which is unfortunate, because some very cool fluff could be generated around that subject, because what little has shown up in the fluff is very cool.

-The Imperium getting all exited because they found a fully functional STC fabricator that makes...... knives!

-As Hunter mentioned, there was the full manufactory in Gaunt's Ghosts that actually made fully functional Men of Iron, but was corrupted by Chaos.

I know that one was before the Oldcron codex, and cave me the fleeting hope that Necrons would be in some way linked to the Men of Iron still existing and coming back to haunt the Imperium.

I agree that full STC's wouldn't exist because they were either dismantled during the Dark Age after fears of AI rebellion probably caused humans to outright fear any technology, or they have fallen to dust because existing ones would be nearly 20 thousand years old!

Call me stupid, but i dont fully understand what an STC is, i get the idea that they are plans for things but what im missing is their importance, i know that they are but why seems to elude me. why not make more after already existing knowledge? would that be considered tech heresy? if someone could explain it would be much appreciated.

gh05tdemon wrote:
Call me stupid, but i dont fully understand what an STC is, i get the idea that they are plans for things but what im missing is their importance, i know that they are but why seems to elude me. why not make more after already existing knowledge? would that be considered tech heresy? if someone could explain it would be much appreciated.

An STC is simply put the data regarding the technologies Mankind had achieved during the Golden Age of Technology. All STC data is easy to understand and replicate, which is actually paradoxical to the surprising high-level of technology the data actually represents. The Land Raider, the Rhino, basically all of the Imperium's technology but the Titans are based on STC data. Let me put it this way: despite having recovered only 'fragments' of the lost technological legacy of the Golden Age of Technology, those same 'fragments' provide the technological base that has helped keep the Imperium standing for ten thousand years and more. A complete STC would include data on more than one device, and its always been given that should the Imperium recover a complete STC, then together with its military might, nothing could stand against it.

Oh. Oh wow. i see why that's important now. What exactly broke up the STC though? was it humans fearing the rise of the AI or something? And thanks for the info by the way.

gh05tdemon wrote:
Oh. Oh wow. i see why that's important now. What exactly broke up the STC though? was it humans fearing the rise of the AI or something? And thanks for the info by the way.

No problem. Perhaps it was that, but unlikely. You see, fully-sapient AIs have been forbidden since the Men of Iron revolted, but actually semi-sapient AIs remain in use. The Titan war machines in particular, have rudimentary AI systems that develop their own personalities and actually bond with the Titan's Princeps. Land Raiders also have something similar, so I doubt the STCs which weren't involved with the Men of Iron and other associated technology were destroyed. Most likely, they were either destroyed in the anarchy of the Old Night, or were hidden away and were forgotten when those who hid them either forgot about them or were killed.

EDIT: Oh, and a new STC could be made, but you would another STC to do so, and complete one at that.

That and many of the STC's would be about 20 thousand years old, long enough to fall to dust if not in some sort of highly advanced crypt for protection.

Which is exactly what the Imperium (especially the Adeptus Mechanicus) looks for as their "holy grails". Because most of what they have found are merely blueprint fragments that they can then reverse engineer to use normal manufacturing methods to reproduce. The complete STC's from the Dark Age were everything from the blueprint to the factory in one highly advanced unit for using on-site at colonies.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well both eldar are starting with the same tech base. However Dark Eldar simply went another way as they lost the Pskyer powers. But given as the Eldar race as been around 60 million years I do not think the Dark Eldar made anything new, just fell back on stuff they had long ago stopped using.

Whether its Dark Eldar or the Craftworld Eldar, they're both as stagnant as the Imperium. No real progress, just living in memory of the past.

Dark Eldar are in my experiance from reading their fluff actually moving forward in odd ways. Mostly they move forward just to enhance pain and not all technology would be considered good.

An STC does sound very valuable and seems like it could shoot a race forward very very quickly. could that be how the tau got so advanced. i mean they where what was basically blue cavemen, then warp storm, then pulse rifles intergalactic battle battle suits anti grav and all that. tech that for us to reach that point would be a while (from modern day and i mean to the extent they have). simplified version, could the tau have found an STC? and if they did would they be able to understand it?

gh05tdemon wrote:
An STC does sound very valuable and seems like it could shoot a race forward very very quickly. could that be how the tau got so advanced. i mean they where what was basically blue cavemen, then warp storm, then pulse rifles intergalactic battle battle suits anti grav and all that. tech that for us to reach that point would be a while (from modern day and i mean to the extent they have). simplified version, could the tau have found an STC? and if they did would they be able to understand it?

Eldar took some guys, made the Ethereals, sent them back and the unified Tau in their individual castes moved forward at a rapid pace, all aimed in one direction.

SkyD wrote:

gh05tdemon wrote:
An STC does sound very valuable and seems like it could shoot a race forward very very quickly. could that be how the tau got so advanced. i mean they where what was basically blue cavemen, then warp storm, then pulse rifles intergalactic battle battle suits anti grav and all that. tech that for us to reach that point would be a while (from modern day and i mean to the extent they have). simplified version, could the tau have found an STC? and if they did would they be able to understand it?

Eldar took some guys, made the Ethereals, sent them back and the unified Tau in their individual castes moved forward at a rapid pace, all aimed in one direction.

I like the necrons did it theory myself. Tau are unlikely to have a SCT. A admech ship visited their planet before the aun came.

gh05tdemon wrote:
An STC does sound very valuable and seems like it could shoot a race forward very very quickly. could that be how the tau got so advanced. i mean they where what was basically blue cavemen, then warp storm, then pulse rifles intergalactic battle battle suits anti grav and all that. tech that for us to reach that point would be a while (from modern day and i mean to the extent they have). simplified version, could the tau have found an STC? and if they did would they be able to understand it?

No. Its impossible for another race to use another STC. The Dark Eldar managed to steal an incomplete but functional medical STC, but they never managed to use it. My guess is, its keyed for use by Humans for some reason.

While someone other is Humans having an STC might have once been posable, after 20'000 years it is unlikely to ever happen. The Tau tech base looks nothing like the dark age human tech base.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
While someone other is Humans having an STC might have once been posable, after 20'000 years it is unlikely to ever happen. The Tau tech base looks nothing like the dark age human tech base.

Exactly. The Imperium's tech base is completely of STC design (except for Titans). Assuming they could use an STC (which I doubt), their technology would have to look like that of the Imperium.

I do not dought anyone could have used them, its simply its been 20'000 years since there was one to use. I am not sure titans are not STC myself, but I am sure the Tau's tech base is not an STCV based one.

I have a couple ideas on the various topics at hand.

First of all, I don't believe that psyker based technology should be discounted as there's every indication that being able to use psyker powers is as simple as manipulating ones genome to be more "in-tune" with the warp. This is just genetic sciences taken to an extreme.

Secondly, one of the templates for comparing the technological advancement of a culture that I really like is the tier system used in the halo franchise. I do admit that as far as story stuff goes halo is eh, but the tier system is quite interesting, here's a link if anyone is curious: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Technological_Achievement_Tiers .

While alot of these tiers are focused toward the technology of the halo universe we can find their parrallel in this universe. The tier system, though my understanding of it, is based off of the kind of energy the race can produce, the FTL ability of the race, their ability with AI and other advanced technology and their control of the laws of physics.

To answer the OP: yes, the Eldar are high tech because, even though their avenue to this is through psychic talents, they have the ability to manipulate the laws of physics to create and move almost without limit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I looked at how the universes interlap a bit more and I believe that the four traits that should be looked at instead are: the FTL ability of the race, how much they have expanded beyond their own homeworld, how advanced of technology they can reliably impliment and how much they can manipulate the laws of physics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So using an improvisation of the tier system here is my ranking of each race technologically:

Eldar: Yhrough the webway they have exceptionally reliable and stable warp travel (tier 1)
Have exapanded accross the whole galaxy (tier 1)
With their technology they can create things that most mortals would consider god-like (tier 1)
Created the craftworlds and manipulate the laws of physcis off-hand (tier 1)

Necrons: Tapped into part of the webway and use it for the logistics of their empire (tier 2)
Are a galactic level force (tier 1)
Have frequently created world sized contructs and have apparently magical technologies (tier 1)
Created the blackstone fortresses and other such physics bending technologies (tier 1)

Dark Eldar: Use parts of the webway for raids (tier 2)
Have expanded slightly from regions near webway portals (tier 2)
Created their home in the webway, commoragh, and have other such technologies (tier 1)
Manipulate physics regularly in their common technology (tier 1)

IOM: Via the astronomicon, navigators and warp engines they have good FTL travel (tier 2)
Are the dominant galactic power (tier 1)
Have reliable advanced technologies, however crude they are (tier 2)
Can manipulate physics to a functional degree, using EM and atomic forces freely (tier 3)

Orks: Use functional but ultimately unreliable warp travel (tier 3)
Have expanded beyond the galaxy known by the IOM (tier 1)
Though their tech is ramshackle, many of their higher achievement are somewhat reliable (tier 3)
Have a respectably ability to manipulate EM and atomic forces (tier 3)

Tau: Have no real FTL ability (tier 4)
Have expanded to fill their region of the galaxy (tier 2)
Capable of using fairly advanced technology freely (tier 2)
Can manipulate EM and atomic forces freely (tier 3)

Tyranids: Have no real FTL ability (tier 4)
Are an intergalactic force (tier 1)
Emulate most advanced technologies though biological means (tier 3)
Only have a limited manipulation of physics though biological means (tier 4)

Also for fun i looked over Chaos and the Old Ones and both appear to be tier 0 powers

In the 40K universe, psychic energy is another form of energy, like electrmagnetism or gravity. It can be manipulated and turned to other things like heat or matter. The only difference is that it seems to be only manipulated by living creatures and seems to have a set of rules of its own. Manipulating it in a consistent reliable fashion to craft objects or perform tasks is still a form of technology so the fact that Eldar civilization is based on psychic energy should not discount them from being considered. They still use technological things like lasers and plasma but the means in which they go about achieving these or powering these technologies may be psychic. All Eldar are psychic to some degree (atrophied in the case of Dark Eldar), so them basing their civilization around an ability they all naturally have is no different from humans creating a civilization around color vision.

I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

Void__Dragon (page 1): Gravity isn't a weak force. Force can't be weak, it is work a measurement. Think of a pound of lead and a pound of feathers - one just happen to naturally take up more space but they are both equal. When someone says gravity is weak they mean that gravity needs excessive amount of mass to make a gravity well of a certain force. Now, I don't know if it is science fiction or actual science, but gravity should be a lot stronger and is likely being distributed through more than three dimensions.

Think of it this way, Craftworld Guardians run around with mass-produced weapons that carries with them a stable gravity field - essentially a simulated mass equal or large then the mass of a Sol.

It is sort of silly, though. A gravity field less than a metre long capable to accelerating projectiles beyond 100m/s should cause all sorts of upsets beyond the projectile muzzle.

laginess: Chaos Gods or Chaos Space Marines?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

That's a Farly good example. Though if you had a race with glasses, and a race with cyborg eyes. Which one is more high tech?

nomotog wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

That's a Farly good example. Though if you had a race with glasses, and a race with cyborg eyes. Which one is more high tech?

Its not in what they use but what they can make. If race one can not make cyber eyes then they are lower in tech then the race that can. Humans for example use tech much higher in technology then they currently understand or can make.

@Mahtamori: Chaos gods, I'm far to lazy to try and figure out CSM


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@hunterinthedarkness: I completely get what you're saying with humans not being able to recreate alot of their higher end tech and I'd like to add that alot of the other races (necrons, eldar and dark eldar) cannot recreate their highest achievements either. The only ones that can are what could be considered thriving species aka the orks, tyranids and tau.

I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

Necrons should still be able to build their highest-tier tech. Eldar? I don't think so. They can't expand the Webway anymore, nor can they build any more of the Blackstone Fortresses or any other of their highest-tier tech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

DE Codex says DE tech is better than CWE's.

Humm ya could be correct on the CWE, after all they are more or less the Amish of Eldar in many ways. I guess ya have to look at it as No Eldar civ is the per-Iom Civ, they however are descended from it.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

DE Codex says DE tech is better than CWE's.

Actually it doesn't. Somebody is is misremembering or being overly enthusiastic in favor of the Dark Eldar.

What it does say is:

Though it is manufactured instead of psychically grown, the weaponry of the Dark Eldar is just as advanced as that used upon the Eldar Craftworlds.

p. 5, Dark Eldar Codex

The phrase "as advanced" means equality, not superiority.

The better term is each races technology has gone forward in different ways. I have not looked deeply in the craftworld eldar codex mostly out of dislike so my bias would show and i am sorry about my lack of knowledge.

 Gabrial Seth wrote:
The better term is each races technology has gone forward in different ways. I have not looked deeply in the craftworld eldar codex mostly out of dislike so my bias would show and i am sorry about my lack of knowledge.

There isn't much to see. The codex mostly talk about the pantheon and the culture. It hardly even have pictures of how the weapons look like. Best reference material for Eldar technology is Gav Thorpe's trilogy books, but you'll have to do without the easy value statements you get in all the codexes.

Im suprised while everyone was listing races based on tech level no one mentioned Chaos Space marines who are far more open to inovation since they experiment with combining machines and deamonic forces together on this basis they could form entire attack forces of deamon machnes without ever sacrificing a single marine.

-----

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Im suprised while everyone was listing races based on tech level no one mentioned Chaos Space marines who are far more open to inovation since they experiment with combining machines and deamonic forces together on this basis they could form entire attack forces of deamon machnes without ever sacrificing a single marine.

I think there's a certain level of "It is because I say it" with anything involving Chaos. The Eldar, IoM, and Necrons are all technologically advanced due to years of research and creation. There was a progression from inferior to superior technology. Even the Necrons and Eldar undoubtedly went through a period where they lacked interstellar travel due to technological limits. The Eldar developed their technology over millions of years of accretion. At one point, it may be safe to assume they lacked the ability to psychically affect anything (or really, lacked the knowledge of that ability). The Necrons, likewise developed their technology over aeons. Eventually, the Necrons basically got to the end of science and reason, just staring off into the Abyss. Chaos is closer to Ork tech. It doesn't work based on principles of science and engineering (regardless of how arcane or advanced). In the case of Chaos, it works because it's imbued with demonic magic. In the case of Orks, it works because they are orks.

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Who needs shields when your armor has adaptive capabilities and is all but impossible to target due to to its stealth capability? Heck, their teleport systems i.e. portals are superior to all others.

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Well if we are talking tech, the orks really have none. The Orks have a psychic field which mimic's tech, but not tech itself. Orks are the other end of the spectrum as Eldar uses pysker powers in tech design orks however, uses psyker powers to mimic it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Well if we are talking tech, the orks really have none. The Orks have a psychic field which mimic's tech, but not tech itself. Orks are the other end of the spectrum as Eldar uses pysker powers in tech design orks however, uses psyker powers to mimic it.

Your claim about Orks isn't true. Their guns are technological because they still work in the hands of non-Orks. See the Armageddon 3 rules for human Ork Hunters:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ig/w40k_ig_arm.html

They had as an option the ability to arm themselves with Shootas. These are clearly non-psychic ordinary human soldiers yet they are able to use Ork guns, meaning the Ork guns actually worked. Just because one lone Tech-Priest cannot figure out Ork guns and claims it must be all due to psychics doesn't mean that is the case. What a character in 40K believes can be wrong. Especially if this is from the same Adeptus Mechanicus that concluded in the old Necron Codex that Gauss weapons were impossible, despite the Necrons using them just fine.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

This is not in line with the current codex. Under it the Necron where millions of years old and already fighting a war with the old ones before the C'tan. A war they never could win, not because of a lack of numbers or tech, but because of the webway. Also under the new Codex the Eldar did not drive the Necron off, the silent king chose to leave, put them to sleep and remove his shame as best as he could. They killed off the old ones and then the C'tan a feat the Eldar at that time could not do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

Your claim about Orks isn't true. Their guns are technological because they still work in the hands of non-Orks. See the Armageddon 3 rules for human Ork Hunters:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ig/w40k_ig_arm.html

That is odd, every other thing I have ever seen about ork tech makes it clear it does not ork in non ork hands. Eh another contradiction. what does the ork codex say?

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

This is incorrect. Its not that they couldn't win per se, rather the Silent King simply lacked the motivation to fight. My reasoning: if the Silent King believes a reunited Necron Empire can stop the Tyranids, then they could have defeated the ancient Eldar as well. I for one do not believe the might of the Tyranids as inferior compared that of the ancient Eldar.

It wasn't that the Eldar had better technology. The Necrons, after fighting the C'tan, had lost many numbers. The Eldar (IIRC) out-numbered the Necrons.

Wow my English is messed up today...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It wasn't that the Eldar had better technology. The Necrons, after fighting the C'tan, had lost many numbers. The Eldar (IIRC) out-numbered the Necrons.

Wow my English is messed up today...

It never says they were outnumbered. Even if they had been the Eldar's FTL method( and upper hand it gave them) was wide open to the Necrons. They still had the bodies, ones that get back up, and the firepower. What they lacked was a will to do so. At that Time the Silent king had total control over the whole of the Necron race. And he was just done, tried, ashamed and ready to bury his race and flee as far as he could from the mess he had made.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It wasn't that the Eldar had better technology. The Necrons, after fighting the C'tan, had lost many numbers. The Eldar (IIRC) out-numbered the Necrons.

Wow my English is messed up today...

It never says they were outnumbered. Even if they had been the Eldar's FTL method( and upper hand it gave them) was wide open to the Necrons. They still had the bodies, ones that get back up, and the firepower. What they lacked was a will to do so. At that Time the Silent king had total control over the whole of the Necron race. And he was just done, tried, ashamed and ready to bury his race and flee as far as he could from the mess he had made.

My thoughts exactly. As far as he was concerned, the Necrons had nothing to gain from defeating the Eldar at the time and he himself had no motivation to continue leading the Necrons after he had allowed the C'tan to turn them into soulless machines. But somehow, the Tyranids have reawakened the Silent King's will, and now he seeks to reunite his empire against the Tyranid threat.

He may see them as something worthy of fighting or maybe a threat to any hope of becoming flesh once more. As a whole I do not think the necrons themselves are much threaten by the nids, unless they actively go looking for a fight.

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

tech·nol·o·gy
/tekˈnäləjē/
Noun
The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, esp. in industry: "computer technology"; "recycling technologies".
Machinery and equipment developed from such scientific knowledge.
Synonyms
technics - engineering - technique

Don't do this.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
He may see them as something worthy of fighting or maybe a threat to any hope of becoming flesh once more. As a whole I do not think the necrons themselves are much threaten by the nids, unless they actively go looking for a fight.

Perhaps not to the Necrons themselves (considering they live on lifeless worlds of no interest whatsoever to the Tyranids), but to the rest of the galaxy? Definitely. The newcrons give off a feel similar to the Leviathans from Mass Effect 3; submit and pay tribute, and all will be well. Well, they're honest at least, which is more than I can say for the space commies. Anyway, if this is the case, then the Silent King would probably consider the Tyranids coming to take what rightfully belongs to the Necrons, since they were there first.

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Tau. I thin they are ABOUT even, with the Tau advancing tech in a different direction than the Eldar with Tau tech being more overall and Eldar tech basically being for pure war purposes (for obvious reasons)

Yeah the IoM is not tech advanced at all really. They used to be, a lot, but the huge technophobia killed that. Most of their tech is really based on religion and old STC's of when they were tech advanced

Necrons are above and beyond the eldar, the necrons had better tech the old ones. Was only due to the old ones controling the warp there was even a fight.

Necrons
Eldar
Imperial (back in the day when they understood tech)
Tau
Imperial (currently who think its all magic and blessing of gods etc)

I think the Necrons also consider the 'Nids a threat due to the threat to their apotheosis; if all organic life has been eaten, how can they find a way to regain their bodies?

While I don't think that's a pressing concern to most dynasties, to the Silent King, however, that's extremely important. I vaguely recall him being involved in a multi-species fight against a Tyranid hive fleet, at least briefly.

But what have happened with the enslavers? Are they gone in the new edition?

No talk of them in the newcone book. Which I like, it never liked the old background anyhow.

So enslavers dont exist anymore?

There's nothing saying they don't. Just because the new rulebook doesn't mention them doesn't mean they're retconned.

They may still be around, but not like before and they had nothing to do with the Necrons little nap.

 Tomten wrote:
So enslavers dont exist anymore?

They still exisit, as Trazyn has one in his collection.

In addition, they are alluded to being unleashed because of the Old Ones at the end of the War in Heaven.

 Sasori wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
So enslavers dont exist anymore?

They still exisit, as Trazyn has one in his collection.

In addition, they are alluded to being unleashed because of the Old Ones at the end of the War in Heaven.

Do they exsist in the warp?