I am sure this kind of thing has been discussed before but I can't figure it out.
He effectively took 3 legions out of the fight with the Istvaan campaign.
Also he had the Ultras and Space Wolves tied up. Also didn't he send orders to distract the Blood Angels too?
I am not familiar with all the fluff so far and it gets a little hazy in the details during the middle part of the war.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).
Several Loyal Legions were en route to Terra - including the largest, the Ultramarines, then Horus went and got himself killed. Even the most insane Traitor could see it's very much a case of 'better luck next time' at that point.
Edit: Also Imperial forces were unified and working together. Traitors were not. For example the Emperors Children spent the whole battle rounding up civilians to err... play with.
Simple.
Horus panicked.
He had the defenders on the ropes.
Then word came of the imminent arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.
Being caught between the rock of the Imperial Palace and the hard place of being attacked in the rear by the other two most accomplished tacticians in the Imperium was a bad place to be, so he lowered his flagship and its shields in an attempt to lure the Emperor on board. This worked, but the outcome was a draw - both died.
The other version is that he didn't lose. He got killed, sure, but since the demise of the Emperor, the Imperium (and mankind with it) has been dying a 10,000 year long, slow agonising death.
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.
Ah, head in the sand. Always works. The Heresy series does a really good job of telling the origins of the Legions from a neutral 'novel' point of view, which works well when compared to the very (deliberately) biased view of the codexes. For example, though they added masses to the fluff of the Alpha Legion, none of it directly contradicts the fluff in any recent Chaos codex. Though there are some changes, and some timeline..um..incidents, I can't think of that many instances where the Codex info has actualy been changed...
I think that both of the chapters you mentioned have had a huge benefit in terms of believable fluff from the HH series. The Thousand Sons aren't just some movie evil-villains or Space Egyptians and are now properly fleshed out with an interesting story. The Space Wolves have finally dropped the stupid cartoon Space Viking image when Dan Abnett actually decided to research into real Norse custom, real history, and apply this to how a Legion might realistically exist like that. I think both of them are vastly more believable and interesting then before the Heresy series.
Easy: because three remaining Space Marine Legions ( SW, DA, UM ) were on route to Terra after defeating the Legions that Horus sent to disrupt them.
With the arrival of three loyal Legion the victory for loyalists would be assured and it was then when Horus took a gamble of lowering his shields and challenging the Emperor for one final duel with the galaxy at stake ( because seriously, when you have millions of men, marines and daemons battling for the domination of the galaxy, they TOTALLY will stop just because their general is dead).
Horus was erased from existence but not before he eat Emperor so badly he was put to golden throne to survive.
Zanderchief wrote: I am sure this kind of thing has been discussed before but I can't figure it out.
He effectively took 3 legions out of the fight with the Istvaan campaign.
Also he had the Ultras and Space Wolves tied up. Also didn't he send orders to distract the Blood Angels too?
I am not familiar with all the fluff so far and it gets a little hazy in the details during the middle part of the war.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).
Anyone shed some light on it?
The continuing HH series is starting to flesh this out.
The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars were at Terra, in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage). The Scars and Fists were practically at full strength. The Blood Angels were a large Legion but had also suffered large losses.
All nine Traitor Legions were present at the siege, but with differing strengths. The Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children had all lost about a third of their strength when purging their Legions (according to FW:Betrayal). The new Betrayer novel seems to point the World Eaters towards being seriously under-strength by the time of the siege, and of course the Emperor's Children ignored a lot of the fighting and just attacked civilian areas. The Word Bearers are a huge legion, but also suffer massive losses at Calth, and though the Thousand Sons weren't purged, they were always a small legion, and even smaller once the Space Wolves had finished with them.
That leaves the Alpha Legion and Night Lords (both at full strength but whose 'loyalty' to Horus & Chaos is pretty questionable) and the Iron Warriors (who were just betrayed by Fulgrim and have no love of Chaos anyway).
Horus plan was from start based on a fast success when heading for Terra, he acknowledged himself his inability to withstand the gathered might of the loyalists and loyalists does include just every human being and everything created from a human life-form.
The warmaster was screwed from his first steps onward. Chaos never considered to stick with their promises...
So Horus lost everything. His existance, his reputation, and got....not even a crappy T_shirt...
Like stated in other posts, reinforcements were incoming and Horus and his treacherous followers couldn't afford a lenghty battle as sooner or later the discipline of the loyalists would overcome the lack thereof of the traitors.
Horus chose the duel to "win".
He couldn't trust his allies and one or two Legions to would be enough to ruin the siege of Terra. They may not just outright beat the traitors, but they would buy the time for more reinforcements to arrive.
Now if someone intends to put Gulliman in a role there, a job as the master logistican behind such reinforcements seems obvious. Would Horus believe he could stand against a counter force his logistics loving brother has gathered?
I think not.
This is a case where an army has to achieve a goal in a given time-frame before it gets encircled and brought low.
Remember also Horus wanted to chose the time and place of battle, to move the scales in his favor beforehand.
Didn't fight at Istvaan 1 vs 1, rather 9 vs 3. Same was planned for Terra as the presence of the Blood Angels and White Scars wasn't what Horus wanted. His tactic looks like hit them hard and fast, something that can fail.
Zanderchief wrote: But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?
UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....
Hahaha. Yeah and Robute will eventually be the one saving Empy's ass, then BL will do a complete 180 due to the Ultra IRL, which unlike the Ultras of wh40k. ain't nice people at all. Then they will realize the Ultras being a negative thing and they will retcon them out of existence in order to escape accusations of being racist.
So if hard and fast was how he liked it (boom boom) then why not just drop on to Terra first, after giving the loyalist armies errands to run. Like fetching the milk at end-o-galaxy store.
Zanderchief wrote: So if hard and fast was how he liked it (boom boom) then why not just drop on to Terra first, after giving the loyalist armies errands to run. Like fetching the milk at end-o-galaxy store.
Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?
Zanderchief wrote: Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?
Well it's my interpretation, and he might have taken the risk just to best the ultimate being in existence. Of course he was a great general, but rushed as he was and full of pride, I honestly think he believed he could beat the ultimate man in single combat so he lowered the shields.
Hehe i like you refs to the Emp being the ultimate being and the ultimate man. He now sounds like an OTT wrestler who uses these phrases :-)
Actually i get that he had to rush things but i was suprised that the traitors were not a bit better than they are made out to be. Every one of them lost their battles except the drop site it seems.
Although i don't know how any World Eaters at all survived. There must have been about 5 of them left!!
Zanderchief wrote: Hehe i like you refs to the Emp being the ultimate being and the ultimate man. He now sounds like an OTT wrestler who uses these phrases :-)
Actually i get that he had to rush things but i was suprised that the traitors were not a bit better than they are made out to be. Every one of them lost their battles except the drop site it seems.
Although i don't know how any World Eaters at all survived. There must have been about 5 of them left!!
Actually Empy used the phrases I mentioned. He did so when Lorgar was told to stop worshiping him. That as you mentioned seems like Empy have a past within WWE. He told Lorgar he was the ultimate man and should be revered as such, but not worshiped, then he turned to Robute telling him to demolish the cathedrals of Lorgar. Just that get me all giggly hehe, thinking of Empy going off like the OTT wrestler you mentioned. For proof just look at the belief-system of the Space Marines hehe.
Yeah the traitors seems to lose even when they shall win. In Codex Space Marines the Ultramarines is out-everything against the Alphas, and still win. How? They get angry.
World Eaters are flandarized too much. Khorne is as much planning as he is mindless slaughter. I'm of the impression that the Khornate fanatics in general go nuts as a concious choice, rather than being berzerk all the time. That brings up the question: How the hell can they board a vessel to invade something?
Zanderchief wrote: Can't check the link at the moment (another randomly blocked site in China no doubt) but doesn't what you just said go against what everyone else has just said... That he took calculated risksas wasn't sure of the plan unless all went smoothly?
Well it's my interpretation, and he might have taken the risk just to best the ultimate being in existence. Of course he was a great general, but rushed as he was and full of pride, I honestly think he believed he could beat the ultimate man in single combat so he lowered the shields.
Listen to the audio drama Warmaster.
Spoiler:
Horus, makes it clear that he is not in the position he wants to be in and that his brothers that sided with him are crap... More or less.
ArbitorIan wrote: in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)
I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.
Lowering his shields was a brilliant move on Horus's part. The main goal of the siege of Terra, I think, was to kill the Emperor. The main obstacle was the fortified palace. Horus negated that obstacle by luring the Emperor to fight on his own terms. At the same time, this was a major gamble. It was time to walk the walk, so to speak. Horus thought he could replace the Emperor but how would he fair mano a mano? And, all things considered, he did pretty damn well.
The real question is not "why did Horus fail?" but rather "how did he get so far?" The answer is, of course, that he was an absolute genius.
Beaviz81 wrote:World Eaters are flandarized too much. Khorne is as much planning as he is mindless slaughter. I'm of the impression that the Khornate fanatics in general go nuts as a concious choice, rather than being berzerk all the time. That brings up the question: How the hell can they board a vessel to invade something?
The new 'Betrayer' novel actually does this really well - fills them out quite nicely. They can't help going nuts but they're not frothing loonies either. Basically,
Spoiler:
The Nails drive them crazy once they're IN combat. Even without the Nails, though, they consider themselves warriors (gladiators) rather than soliders and don't believe that something as horrible as war is in any way 'honourable'. They realise that they're just warrior slaves - there to kill people for the Emperor. They hate the fact, and can't be bothered pretending 'noble tactics' somehow make that morally OK'.
Add to this that
Spoiler:
The Butchers Nails have disabled Angron's 'oh my god you're amazing god-like being' Primarch power, meaning that people see him as just some crazy guy rather than 'their divine leader'. They're all incredibly (humourously) fatalistic, and very casual - none of the grovelling 'my liege' stuff that the other legions have. There's a great line near the end when a dying World Eater asks for the mercy stroke because 'he's fought for that bastard Angron for 30 years already' and can't be bothered any more.
Manchu wrote:
ArbitorIan wrote: in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)
I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.
I agree - the Imperial Palace is the deciding factor. There's another thread going on about Legion sizes, and some good numbers were dug up. This is guesswork based on what little we know, but we could estimate as follows..
Imperial Fists - large legion - 180,000 Blood Angels - mid/large legion, but battered - 100,000 White Scars - mid size legion - 100,000 En-route are the Dark Angels (est. around 100,000) and Space Wolves (est. around 60,000)
Sons of Horus - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 100,000 World Eaters - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors, battered - 80,000 Emperor's Children - mid size legion, culled almost 1/2 of their warriors - 60,000 Death Guard - mid/small legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 60,000 Word Bearers - mid/large legion, 1/2 killed at Calth - 75,000 Then, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion (est maybe 90-110,000 each), but we don't know how many actually go to Terra. Estimate half, so 150,000
Loyalist 380,000 and a massive fortress, with 160,000 more on their way Traitor 625,000 basic, up to about 750,000 if lots of Iron Warriors and Word Bearers showed up.
Sounds like the Traitors would be in a pretty bad position if the DA and SW turned up....
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.
Ah, head in the sand. Always works. The Heresy series does a really good job of telling the origins of the Legions from a neutral 'novel' point of view, which works well when compared to the very (deliberately) biased view of the codexes. For example, though they added masses to the fluff of the Alpha Legion, none of it directly contradicts the fluff in any recent Chaos codex. Though there are some changes, and some timeline..um..incidents, I can't think of that many instances where the Codex info has actualy been changed...
I think that both of the chapters you mentioned have had a huge benefit in terms of believable fluff from the HH series. The Thousand Sons aren't just some movie evil-villains or Space Egyptians and are now properly fleshed out with an interesting story. The Space Wolves have finally dropped the stupid cartoon Space Viking image when Dan Abnett actually decided to research into real Norse custom, real history, and apply this to how a Legion might realistically exist like that. I think both of them are vastly more believable and interesting then before the Heresy series.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, then. I think the HH series does a terrible job, both of having a neutral POV, and in describing and characterising the Primarchs and their Legions (with the exception of Fulgrim, which I thought was actually a reasonably decent book).
In fact, I think the entire series was a bad idea to begin with.
I actually liked the 40K background before, when the events of the Horus Heresy, while described in some detail for us, the reader, was mostly a dimly remembered past that no one really knew the specifics of. IMO, it should have remained that way. The Index Astartes series was about as detailed as it should have gotten, IMO. Some more info on some of the First Foundings would have been nice, but no more than that.
I like the "barbarian army in space" image of the Space Wolves. I liked that they were one of the few factions in 40K who could genuinely be described as "good guys" (along with the Salamanders) without the elsewhere completely prevalent grimdark. Also, from Abnett I didn't Viking vibe at all, except a little bit from their Rune Priest. (On a separate note, I also dislike how they turned from vikings in space to werewolves in space in the latest codex - a case of someone not understanding they're called space wolves because vikings were called the wolves of the sea in medieval times methinks.)
As for the Sons, their origin was never described as moustache-twirling villains. Theirs was always a tale of a tragic fall caused by a misunderstanding, of being set up by a being they dealt with with hidden agendas and everything. That's what I like about them.
I absolutely loathe the HH series not just for its arbitrary changes (and there are quite a lot), but for the terrible quality of writing, the complete lack of a decent climax and conclusion in, well, just about all the books. If I have to choose between head in the sand and losing my enjoyment of a lot of the 40K background, then head in the sand it is.
Novels can never have a "neutral" PoV anyways. Invariably, the author - a human being with his or her own personal opinions on how something works or what is cool and how far you can go - will leave their mark on a story. Just look at all the other novels out there and how they contradict each other or the source material.
Personally, the only thing *I* consider to be truly neutral when it comes to 40k (apart from technical descriptions, but GW doesn't seem to publish them anymore anyways) are the cold hard stats and numbers of the game, who do not distinguish between protagonist or antagonist - traits that exist only in stories, but not on the battlefield. Which is exactly why GW felt that creating Black Library as a separate division was necessary. As Dan Abnett explained in an interview, you can't write a good story with "neutral" rules. Heroes have to survive against the odds and overcome epic obstacles, regardless of whatever chance they should actually have. That's the magic people want to read about, and you know it.
ArbitorIan wrote: in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)
I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.
I agree - the Imperial Palace is the deciding factor. There's another thread going on about Legion sizes, and some good numbers were dug up. This is guesswork based on what little we know, but we could estimate as follows..
Imperial Fists - large legion - 180,000
Blood Angels - mid/large legion, but battered - 100,000
White Scars - mid size legion - 100,000
En-route are the Dark Angels (est. around 100,000) and Space Wolves (est. around 60,000)
Sons of Horus - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 100,000
World Eaters - mid/large legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors, battered - 80,000
Emperor's Children - mid size legion, culled almost 1/2 of their warriors - 60,000
Death Guard - mid/small legion, culled 1/3 of their warriors - 60,000
Word Bearers - mid/large legion, 1/2 killed at Calth - 75,000
Then, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion (est maybe 90-110,000 each), but we don't know how many actually go to Terra. Estimate half, so 150,000
Loyalist 380,000 and a massive fortress, with 160,000 more on their way
Traitor 625,000
Sounds like the Traitors would be in a pretty bad position if the DA and SW turned up....
Completely agree with your post(s) ArbitorIan, although Shadows of Treachery shows the Night Lords and Imperial Fists as having large losses (I'm sure someone could go through the book and provide exact numbers if you wish).
IIRC Dan Abnett also stated the Word Bearers as about 200,000 strong and having 50,000 present at the Battle of Calth/events of KNF (I don't know what happens in Betrayer, yet). For reference, I seem to recall this being the vid where he stated the Ultramarines as the largest Legion and about 250,000. I think those were the numbers...
The Traitors also seemed to have more non-Space Marine support, such as Daemons, Cultists, Titans etc. and over twice as many Primarchs. However, the Imperial Palace had the Custodes and I'd imagine the Dark Angels to be a large Legion (albeit there are those on Caliban).
However, as you said, The Siege of Terra was the decisive factor IMHO. Horus had been dominating the Imperials until then, with some of his plans falling through at the pivotal moment (such as Calth and Signus), but it really fell apart at the Palace. To me, things point to the Palace being much harder to break than anticipated which - due to the incoming Imperial Reinforcements - forced Horus' hand.
In the most recent short story compilation, in the discussion between Dorn and Sigismund, they consider the posibility that Horus could just stay out in the galactic rim and bleed the Imperium until there was nothing left, but it wasn't in his character not to make the fight personal. He was nothing if not prone to grand-standing.
And why do people keep neglecting to mention the fact that the Ultramarines were also en route to Terra? Hell, the latest books give pretty clear indication that Guilliman more or less orchestrated the entire counter-offensive.
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.
ArbitorIan wrote: in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)
I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.
Lowering his shields was a brilliant move on Horus's part. The main goal of the siege of Terra, I think, was to kill the Emperor. The main obstacle was the fortified palace. Horus negated that obstacle by luring the Emperor to fight on his own terms. At the same time, this was a major gamble. It was time to walk the walk, so to speak. Horus thought he could replace the Emperor but how would he fair mano a mano? And, all things considered, he did pretty damn well.
The real question is not "why did Horus fail?" but rather "how did he get so far?" The answer is, of course, that he was an absolute genius.
Horus was a fool, and so was the Emprah. The former could have simply burned the planet to crisp ( 30k weaponry is certainly capable of utterly devastating a planet especialy if we consider things like cyclonic torpedos and the like ) while the Carriongod, instead of acting like a braindamaged berserker, could have simply teleported a warhead on Horus now unshielded ship.
Of course, epic duels are always preferable to efficiency in 40k and the "military genius" of most characters usualy tends to remain an informed ability.
Omegus wrote: And why do people keep neglecting to mention the fact that the Ultramarines were also en route to Terra? Hell, the latest books give pretty clear indication that Guilliman more or less orchestrated the entire counter-offensive.
Personally, I've not mentioned it because I don't know if this will change under Betrayer and Unremembered Empire.
There are more sources stating they were on their way, and only one WD source simply omitting them entirely. Given that in the recent HH novels, Guilliman has been coordinating (or attempting to coordinate... guys like Lion have proven uncooperative) the entire counter-offensive, it seems likely he would be on the way as well.
At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.
The warhead is a good idea though.
When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)
KingDeath wrote: Horus was a fool, and so was the Emprah. The former could have simply burned the planet to crisp ( 30k weaponry is certainly capable of utterly devastating a planet especialy if we consider things like cyclonic torpedos and the like ) while the Carriongod, instead of acting like a braindamaged berserker, could have simply teleported a warhead on Horus now unshielded ship. Of course, epic duels are always preferable to efficiency in 40k and the "military genius" of most characters usualy tends to remain an informed ability.
I think possibly 'a good story' is what you're missing. Yes, the Horus Heresy story could be told by stating the number of men and munitions on each side and then stating who should have won, but that kind of misses the point of a story. Human stories are always more interesting to people than logistics - for the same reason that war movies don't have long scenes detailing every battleplans, strategy and supply train - just the bare minimum so that we can move on with the human story.
Saying 'Hur hur - Horus and the Emperor are idiots - they should have just done this' doesn't help. We know that Horus and the Emperor aren't idiotd, and we know that they didn't or couldn't do what you suggest, so we have to ask what reason there must have been to do something else.
The Emperor could have teleported aboard a warhead, but chose to go himself. We've been told that this was because of love for his son (why he was kinda pulling his punches to start with) or because it was the only way to be sure (Primarchs can survive the void, after all), or because it was the honourable thing to do. All of these make for better human stories than 'and then he blew up the barge - stupid Horus!!'. Besides, Horus could disrupt the teleport beam enough to scatter the Emperor's party throughout the ship - why do you think he wouldn't be able to move a warhead where he wanted?
As for the palace, we've been told the following things in the fluff so far..
- A very well defended world (defence lasers, etc) can kill a fleet that comes too close. - In Flight of the Eisenstien, we see that in order to commit Exterminatus, a spread of ships is required to move into low orbit around the whole world - one virus bomb isn't enough. - Terra and the Palace are the most well-defended place in the Imperium.
It's not difficult to see how, after fighting a massive void war and while under fire, the Traitor fleet cannot move into the correct position for Exterminatus, and that holding a stationary orbit above the Palace for a lance strike would be suicide. Hence, massed landing away from the palace (under fire, a bit like Guilliman's counterassault on Armatura in Betrayer), and then a siege.
Quite simply, the traitors had so many hidden agendas that they undermined eachother until Horus's whole plan fell to pieces. I can already think of several things that went wrong and would have contributed to his defeat at Terra. Firstly the Iron hands were meant to turn, Fulgrim assured Horus that he would get Ferrus on the traitors side, by failing to do so Horus lost a whole legion before a shot had been fired. The Night Lords got mauled in the Thramas campaign, effectively losing their whole first company and most of their fleet. Most of the Nightlords took off into fringe space to raid and murder at the orders of Sevatar and very few actually joined the assualt on Terra. The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperors Children and World Eaters lost far more than planned during the Istvaan 3 campaign, losing around a 3rd of their respective strengths. The 1k sons lost almost all of their legion to the fall of Prospero and even more to the subsequent flesh changes that ran rampant following the battle. The Iron Warriors lost huge numbers against the Imperial fists at Phall, then lost even more following Fulgrim on a selfish crusade to attain daemonhood. Kor Phaeron screwed up Calth, failing to kill Gulliman, not crushing the Ultramarines in one blow and losing half of his force when he fled without them. The World Eaters lost huge numbers following Lorgar into the Ultramar crusade, and both the Word Bearers and World Eaters took huge fleet losses at this time. From what we've seen so far only the Alpha's were remotely full strength and they were scattered around the galaxy tying up imperial resources and also fully pursuing their own agenda (it's not even clear if they wanted Horus to win. Not to mention Corax and Vulkan escaped the dropsite massacres, Sanguinius wasnt killed at Signus Prime and a host of other minor details that culminated in the traitors defeat.
Quite simply, the traitors had so many hidden agendas that they undermined eachother until Horus's whole plan fell to pieces. I can already think of several things that went wrong and would have contributed to his defeat at Terra. Firstly the Iron hands were meant to turn, Fulgrim assured Horus that he would get Ferrus on the traitors side, by failing to do so Horus lost a whole legion before a shot had been fired. The Night Lords got mauled in the Thramas campaign, effectively losing their whole first company and most of their fleet. Most of the Nightlords took off into fringe space to raid and murder at the orders of Sevatar and very few actually joined the assualt on Terra. The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperors Children and World Eaters lost far more than planned during the Istvaan 3 campaign, losing around a 3rd of their respective strengths. The 1k sons lost almost all of their legion to the fall of Prospero and even more to the subsequent flesh changes that ran rampant following the battle. The Iron Warriors lost huge numbers against the Imperial fists at Phall, then lost even more following Fulgrim on a selfish crusade to attain daemonhood. Kor Phaeron screwed up Calth, failing to kill Gulliman, not crushing the Ultramarines in one blow and losing half of his force when he fled without them. The World Eaters lost huge numbers following Lorgar into the Ultramar crusade, and both the Word Bearers and World Eaters took huge fleet losses at this time. From what we've seen so far only the Alpha's were remotely full strength and they were scattered around the galaxy tying up imperial resources and also fully pursuing their own agenda (it's not even clear if they wanted Horus to win. Not to mention Corax and Vulkan escaped the dropsite massacres, Sanguinius wasnt killed at Signus Prime and a host of other minor details that culminated in the traitors defeat
.
This could do with a lot of spoilers methinks.
I agree with what you're saying though; Horus' plans were falling short from the start and often unsuccessful altogether. Although, despite this, the Traitors seemed to have the Imperials on the back-foot and some of his plans succeeeded at least partially: such as the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves both being effectively taken out of the picture, the Dark Angels kept from reaching Terra, and the Ultramarines being at least mauled and also kept from Terra. Additionally, it seemed to me like the Traitors were better organised than the loyalists in many cases (as well as not having to deal with the warp), with the Dark Angels situation being a perfect example of this to me:
Spoiler:
As The Night Lords follow the plan and keep the Dark Angels engaged (but further failures emerge within Horus' plans, as the Dark Angels escape, whilst the Night Lords are beaten and fragmented), but Lion El'Jonson is unaware of his brothers situations or greater picture feels he has to deal with Guilliman rather than heading straight for Terra.
My personal opinion is, although the loyalists were kept on the back-foot through-out, there were a lot of cracks that emerged within Horus' plans - as they fell through at some stages - that were truly opened up at the Siege of Terra.
Rather than viewing Horus's plans in the sense of a man falling down a hill, I think it's better to view them as a man climbing up a mountain. He set himself an impossible task and came pretty damn near to accomplishing it. He arguably "won" the HH, considering the fethed up state of the Imperium ever since, even if he did not successfully replace the Emperor. I mean, if his goal really was "let the galaxy burn" then mission accomplished. It's been burning for 10,000 years. The fact that he did this in the face of nine brothers who outright opposed him and eight others that more often than not just got in his way is astounding.
People mention how bad the losses of the traitors were but didn't they also practically wipe out 3 legions and the BA's... ravaged by a deamon host i believe (which must have been one of the biggest single deamonic incursions considering single Chapters seem to face deamons alone these days).
So although the traitors must have had big lossess prior to full scale outbreak it seems they had a lot going for them.
Zanderchief wrote: People mention how bad the losses of the traitors were but didn't they also practically wipe out 3 legions and the BA's... ravaged by a deamon host i believe (which must have been one of the biggest single deamonic incursions considering single Chapters seem to face deamons alone these days).
So although the traitors must have had big lossess prior to full scale outbreak it seems they had a lot going for them.
Btw did deamons help them on Terra?
The last question goes without saying. Sanguinius exchanged blows with one of the mightiest Bloodthirsters ever at the gate of the Imperial Palace, and was in quite bad condition when he was to fight Horus due to recently having broken his back. So demons made up the lack the traitors had in manpower (non-Astartes) compared to the loyalists.
Even with his brilliant opening move where he destroyed 3 loyal legions, it seems obvious that Horus didn't have the manpower in troops to wage a ballanced war against the loyalists. he had to win fast or risk losing to attrition, so the only option available to him was to take out Terra with what he had to hand before the loyalists could rally sufficient forces to defeat him.
His whole strategy at this point hung on using his smaller force to take the imperial palace quickly, and when he filed to do this due to stubborn defence, and with loyalist forces getting closer he had 2 choices.
Retreat, or try one last gambit to kill the emperor.
He chose the latter with the consequences we all know. It is hard to believe that had Horus had the forces to win a sustained war he would have attacked terra directly, so he must have known that was the only way he could win. So he made one last roll of the dice, and the emperor took the bait because if the emperor HAD known that help was almost there, he would have hung on, and waited for the reinforcements to arrive.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.
The warhead is a good idea though.
When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)
Only always, since the Ultras organized the Scouring and rebuilding of the Imperium. Now we're starting to see the events during the Heresy.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.
The warhead is a good idea though.
When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)
Only always, since the Ultras organized the Scouring and rebuilding of the Imperium. Now we're starting to see the events during the Heresy.
By always you mean `since the HH series`. Previously, the Scouring was a joint effort of the surviving Primarchs and their Legions, and so was rebuilding the Imperium, though I´d go so far as to call the two nearly synonymous. Resistance to Horus, however, was, and should be, all the Loyalist Legions scattered across the galaxy through Horus´ manipulations realising ´oh crap, the Warmaster has betrayed us and the Emperor. We must make our way to Terra to save daddy posthaste.`
With old fluff then having the Ultramarines, just like everyone else, trying to get there ASAP, but just being too far away and delayed too much by the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion to make the difference, while the combined forces of Dark Angels and Space Wolves were able to smash through everything just in time to force Horus into his final gambit.
Although which Legions actually arrived to force Horus´ hand is I suppose fairly immaterial, that´s the way it´s been since at least 2nd edition, and I can think of absolutely no effing reason whatsoever to change it for the HH series, aside from GW's continued hard-on for the Ultramarines.
A joint effort, with the Ultramarines primarch as the first High Lord of Terra dictating the organization and disposition of the Imperium's entire military.
That was after the Scouring, though, and *definitely* after the "everybody rush to Terra to save everything" bit.
And I don't recall it being said anywhere that Guilliman was ever a High Lord, nor any of the other Pirmarchs.
Though given the way things are going I can see it happening that he was the first, and said to his brothers: I have this piece of paper now that says I'm your boss so you have to do what I say, nya nya.
OK. Point conceded. That's one of 2 2e codices I don't yet possess.
[nitpick mode]It does, however, say "one of"; *not* the only one, and not the first. I'd imagine that when the new government structure was decided, all those granted a seat on the council became High Lord at the same time.[/nitpick]
Still, the point that this was after the Scouring still stands (unless the Codex states that the loyalist sat down after the siege for a nice little chat to determine who controlled what instead of securing their victory and keeping the defeated trators on the run.
All the Primarchs were consummate military leaders; I very much doubt they'd let the traitor legions have a chance to regroup.
Then again, BL's way of writing about intellgent and skilled people is to keep saying "yeah, he's so skilled at x and intelligent and supersmart" ad infinitum while the protagonist's actions keep giving them the lie.
Yes, you're definitely right about that. There were High Lords before Guilliman. The distinction, I guess, is that there weren't Lord Commanders of the Imperium before him as ... well, the Emperor was around. Guilliman didn't fill the Emperor's role mind (see the Moirae Schism thread for more on that ... sigh, much much more) but it was a novel thing. Guilliman's title was not "Warmaster" -- it's important to note that his position after the Heresy was entirely new. And what I really love about Guilliman is that he put it down and backed off. Can you imagine Horus saying, "okay Father, the Great Crusade is done, now I am no longer Warmaster." It's exactly because Horus couldn't say such a thing that he betrayed the Emperor. So Guilliman is super smart and all but his best quality IMO is this kind of honor where he could basically be the most powerful man in the Imperium and then voluntarily walk away from it.
Manchu wrote: Rather than viewing Horus's plans in the sense of a man falling down a hill, I think it's better to view them as a man climbing up a mountain. He set himself an impossible task and came pretty damn near to accomplishing it. He arguably "won" the HH, considering the fethed up state of the Imperium ever since, even if he did not successfully replace the Emperor. I mean, if his goal really was "let the galaxy burn" then mission accomplished. It's been burning for 10,000 years. The fact that he did this in the face of nine brothers who outright opposed him and eight others that more often than not just got in his way is astounding.
We also should keep in mind that no matter what, siding with Chaos in the 40K Galaxy is something that automatically puts you in the 'lose' category - right from the start!
There is no 'gray area' when it comes to Chaos - when you sign up, you lose...just about everything.
'Chaos' in 40K really has to be viewed as a barely controllable infection, because once you 'know' anything about it, I can't believe anyone would willingly embrace it.
Of course, part of the problem is the whole 'knowing' anything issue...
Horus had a goal and pretty well achieved it. Whether that was good for him ... well, he sure looks like the loser in this case, being dead and all. But he accomplished a good deal of what he set out to do. The issue comes up: did he really want to be "the New Emperor" or did he really just want the galaxy to burn? Maybe that's how he conceived of himself: presiding over an eternity of war. He would then truly be "the Warmaster." So he did succeed in bringing about 10,000 years of continuous war but he sure isn't presiding over it. It seems funny that Horus just died. What happened to his soul? If anyone deserves Daemon princehood it should be him right? Like I said, he sure looks like the loser in this case. But put that into context: it's not like there were any winners.
Just Dave wrote: IIRC The Emperor destroyed his soul. And body...
Yeah Horus allowed Empy to destroy him utterly with that attack. If memory serves I think I remember something along the lines of Horus reverting to Empy's favorite son as Empy used the last attack to destroy him. Of course I might just as well be confusing this with Conan the Barbarian. Also the clones of Horus was destroyed by Abbaddon the Despoiler later on.
No, the body was not destroyed until later. The Black Legion had it in a temple but The Emperor's Children stole it and Fabius Bile made Horus clones. The Black Legion responded by soundly spanking the Emp's Kids, killing the clones, and destroying their Primarch's body.
Just Dave wrote: IIRC The Emperor destroyed his soul. And body...
Yeah Horus allowed Empy to destroy him utterly with that attack. If memory serves I think I remember something along the lines of Horus reverting to Empy's favorite son as Empy used the last attack to destroy him. Of course I might just as well be confusing this with Conan the Barbarian. Also the clones of Horus was destroyed by Abbaddon the Despoiler later on.
That's the old version - I hope they keep it!
Horus was winning, and maybe was momentarily stunned by an attack, suddenly realized what he had done, the mistakes he had made, and then allowed the Emperor to kill him.
The Emperor took it that next step further and additionally totally eradicated his presence on all planes of existence too, or some such.
His body, curiously, was not destroyed in all of that and was eventually cloned by the Emperor's Children (Fabius, was that you?).
Abbaddon eventually reclaimed the body and destroyed that, given that he went all pissy and claimed that Horus was a failure, blah blah blah.
First Horus evaporated a Guardsman or Custodian (depending on who you ask) by looking harshly at the fellow. Then Empy went nuts, and Horus went on his back faster than McNeely vs Mike Tyson.
Then Horus started to regret his actions just as Empy was killing him. His soul was then utterly destroyed.
And after that for comical reasons as far as I'm concerned the Imperials did nothing but emote over the dying Emperor and nothing about the dead body of Horus the Arch-Traitor. Eventually the Emperor's Children got hold of him and made an army of clones. And now we turn over to Arnold Swartznegger talking about cloanes. Casting him as the role as Horus.
Manchu wrote: Yes, you're definitely right about that. There were High Lords before Guilliman. The distinction, I guess, is that there weren't Lord Commanders of the Imperium before him as ... well, the Emperor was around. Guilliman didn't fill the Emperor's role mind (see the Moirae Schism thread for more on that ... sigh, much much more) but it was a novel thing. Guilliman's title was not "Warmaster" -- it's important to note that his position after the Heresy was entirely new. And what I really love about Guilliman is that he put it down and backed off. Can you imagine Horus saying, "okay Father, the Great Crusade is done, now I am no longer Warmaster." It's exactly because Horus couldn't say such a thing that he betrayed the Emperor. So Guilliman is super smart and all but his best quality IMO is this kind of honor where he could basically be the most powerful man in the Imperium and then voluntarily walk away from it.
Yeah. As much as I don't like Guilliman, I do have to respect him for that.
Actually, I don't really dislike him all that much.
I dislike how he's portrayed, and I dislike even more how GW's hardon for the Ultramarines has them slowly stealing all the other Legions' and Primarchs' thunder.
Basically, the Word Bearers failed to defeat the Ultramarines at Calth. The Night Lords failed to bog down the Dark Angels in the Thrasmas Crusade. The Alpha Legion failed to stop the Space Wolves. All 3 legions were inbound for Terra and the Siege was taking too long for Horus to take the Palace before these reinforcements arrived. He let down the shields on his Battle Barge to lure the Emperor to him, knowing forcing a final confrontation was his only chance of victory by that point.
There was some plot induced stupidity yes, such as teleporting down to earth then blowing up his ship. But one could argue Horus wanted to confront the Emperor and crush him personally.
Zanderchief wrote:But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?
Calth didn't exist when the fluff was originally written.
DarthMarko wrote:UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....
This is 100% wrong.
The Ultramarines have always been one of the Chapters that was on the way to Terra, along with the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. This is supported by nearly every piece of fluff that has ever existed about the heresy dating back to when it was originally fleshed out. I fact, the only source that anyone has located that mentions the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, but leaves out the Ultramarines (and it doesn't specifically exclude them, it just doesn't mention them by name) is a single sentence in a single issue of White Dwarf.
Every other source that makes a mention of loyalist reinforcements by name includes the Ultramarines.
The important thing for people to understand is that we're not getting "new" information in this novel series. The Black Library is literally rewriting the story from scratch. When stuff with the new fluff conflicts with the old, it is because the Black Library doesn't care. You can't pick and choose sources from the past and use them with sources from the present. There are events in the current novels that so ridiculously conflict with old fluff it's funny. So just take the books as they are. What you know about the Heresy from old fluff is irrelevant to these novels. You can suppose or guess all you want.
Horus's reasons for dropping the shields, according to the original fluff, was always described in two ways.
1: "Nobody knows why". In all of the old Chaos Codex army books. Literally, more or less in that exact language. Suggestions that it was a mistake, suggestions that he was baiting the Emprah, suggestions that he had a stroke of regret even.
2: "Reinforcements were on the way". In a lot of the other fluff, such as the codex books of other armies, and the Index Astartes articles. It has always been the Space Wolves, Dark Angles, and Ultramarines. Always those three, never excluding them. The Black Library didn't add the Ultramarines. Mat Ward didn't add the Ultramarines. All those guys who created the game, Priestley, Jervis, etc. They wrote the original Heresy story.
However, it's irrelevant what happened in the original story. Again for example, the Battle of Calth didn't exist in the original story. The Ultramarines had just been so successful in war that they had been on the far edge of the galaxy doing their thing and didn't make it to Terra in time. When the Battle of Calth was originally written, it wasn't that big of a deal. Angry Word Bearers attack Calth, poison its sun, and get driven off by reinforcements from Macragge. But now, in this modern retelling, Calth was a major blow to the Ultramarines. That's the version in the new story. It's completely different from the old story. So if you can't reconcile the fluff with the Ultramarines and Word Bearers, obviously trying to reconcile the old fluff about the Battle of Terra is going to be impossible since it hasn't been written yet.
ArbitorIan wrote: That leaves the Alpha Legion and Night Lords (both at full strength but whose 'loyalty' to Horus & Chaos is pretty questionable) and the Iron Warriors (who were just betrayed by Fulgrim and have no love of Chaos anyway).
Didn't the entire Night Lords legion head to galactic east to...massacre everyone?
Defeating the 2nd biggest legion
Creating a 2nd empire (just in case)
Whilst also on the way to Terra (probably with a fully written codex astartes and plans for rebuilding already Xerox'd to hand out)
This is not an attack on Gman more of a "how much stuff does BL want this guy to be doing???"
Mind you GW suck at numbers (Chapter sizes for instance), timings (Horus suddenly getting a Chaos boner after one incident) and keep a track of what it writes down.
The Unremembered Empire thing is what really has me interested. When did this happen, you know? How long did this go on? Plus, I guess Guilliman and Sanguinius are going to throw down in the book. Should be fun. The ancient battle of red versus blue.
Yeah the enternal war is not Chaos vs ...Well you can't call anyone good in 40k can you ( no not even the Tau before anyway chips in!)
No, it is fact Red vs Blue.... And thus shall it remain until we are all but dust (and the red dust will still wanna fight the blue).
Erm where was i... Oh yeah... How does all fit into Terra being under seige. How can GMan and Sanny Bro down during this time?
Personally, I'm expecting El'Jonson could be involved in any throw-down as he's gunning for a fight and doesn't seem to be a fan of Guillimans plans. And if Curze is around...
Just Dave wrote: Personally, I'm expecting El'Jonson could be involved in any throw-down as he's gunning for a fight and doesn't seem to be a fan of Guillimans plans. And if Curze is around...
What and why? The Lion was more occupied with worrying reports from home. He didn't give a rat's ass about the tenets of Robute, but he had more important issues to solve.
Just Dave wrote: Personally, I'm expecting El'Jonson could be involved in any throw-down as he's gunning for a fight and doesn't seem to be a fan of Guillimans plans. And if Curze is around...
What and why? The Lion was more occupied with worrying reports from home. He didn't give a rat's ass about the tenets of Robute, but he had more important issues to solve.
The Primarchs/Shadows of Treachery:
Spoiler:
The Primarchs shows Jonson's displeasure/distrust towards Guilliman's "Unremembered Empire" and Shadows suggests that Curze is currently aboard his ship. Ship that seemingly is heading to Ultramar after clearing out the Thramas sector...
Just Dave wrote: Personally, I'm expecting El'Jonson could be involved in any throw-down as he's gunning for a fight and doesn't seem to be a fan of Guillimans plans. And if Curze is around...
What and why? The Lion was more occupied with worrying reports from home. He didn't give a rat's ass about the tenets of Robute, but he had more important issues to solve.
The Primarchs/Shadows of Treachery:
Spoiler:
The Primarchs shows Jonson's displeasure/distrust towards Guilliman's "Unremembered Empire" and Shadows suggests that Curze is currently aboard his ship. Ship that seemingly is heading to Ultramar after clearing out the Thramas sector...
When was that? Before the HH? After it, it was no time, it was picking up the pieces.
We have no evidence of how good a general Horus actually was.
He never once got into any kind of engagement where he didn't have overwhelming material and logistical advantages over the enemy until the siege of Terra.
What we do have evidence of, therefore, is that he wasn't the best in the Imperium on that front, since he got totally scuppered there.
ArbitorIan wrote: in defence of the Imperial Palace (which is a massive advantage)
I think this is the decisive issue. The only counterargument, which we don't fully understand because the fluff has not been completely developed yet, is that the palace was breached from within vis a vis the Warp as a result of Magnus's attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. I guess this is what kept the Emperor from personally participating in the defense right up until he teleported to the Spirit of Vengeance.
Lowering his shields was a brilliant move on Horus's part. The main goal of the siege of Terra, I think, was to kill the Emperor. The main obstacle was the fortified palace. Horus negated that obstacle by luring the Emperor to fight on his own terms. At the same time, this was a major gamble. It was time to walk the walk, so to speak. Horus thought he could replace the Emperor but how would he fair mano a mano? And, all things considered, he did pretty damn well.
The real question is not "why did Horus fail?" but rather "how did he get so far?" The answer is, of course, that he was an absolute genius.
I actually think this is about right. A long war of attrition was not in Horus' favor, even after his Istvaan victories. It's stated in several novels that only a hammer blow at terra, replacing the emperor as head of humanity, could any victory be secured.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).
Anyone shed some light on it?
Because the nine traitor legions where like the chaos star all different (the points of the star going in different directions) and Horus at the centre holding it all together, without him they fell apart, moving in there different directions.
For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?
He never once got into any kind of engagement where he didn't have overwhelming material and logistical advantages over the enemy until the siege of Terra.
What we do have evidence of, therefore, is that he wasn't the best in the Imperium on that front, since he got totally scuppered there.
Well, we have the evidence of lots of other characters describing him as a tactical genius beyond the measure of any human and most primarchs.
Obviously, there can't be full exposition (or 'evidence) on that front because
1. Dan Abnett et al would all have to be tactical geniuses beyond the measure of any human and most primarchs, which is difficult when they're just human fiction writers...
2. You would have to be a posthuman primarch genius to understand it.
Sometimes you just have to suspend your disbelief. Many characters state that Horus is a tactical genius, so he is. Maybe not THE best, but one of the best.
Defeating the 2nd biggest legion
Creating a 2nd empire (just in case)
Whilst also on the way to Terra (probably with a fully written codex astartes and plans for rebuilding already Xerox'd to hand out)
This is not an attack on Gman more of a "how much stuff does BL want this guy to be doing???"
Mind you GW suck at numbers (Chapter sizes for instance), timings (Horus suddenly getting a Chaos boner after one incident) and keep a track of what it writes down.
The Ultramarines have always defeated the Word Bearers at Calth, part of the Ultramar Empire, nothing about that is new fluff.
And Horus hears about the WB losing, the UM, DA and SW heading for Terra and lowers the shields, the UM were always heading for Terra, again, nothing is new fluff.
It's not BL making new fluff, this is stuff I knew when I first started reading into the fluff many, many years ago.
Alpharius wrote: For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: [
The Ultramarines have always defeated the Word Bearers at Calth, part of the Ultramar Empire, nothing about that is new fluff.
And Horus hears about the WB losing, the UM, DA and SW heading for Terra and lowers the shields, the UM were always heading for Terra, again, nothing is new fluff.
It's not BL making new fluff, this is stuff I knew when I first started reading into the fluff many, many years ago.
Wrong. 2nd Edition UM Codex:
"Whilst the Horus Heresy plunged the Imperium into savagery and civil war, the Ultramarines were engaged on the southern edge of the galaxy. Their very succes had carried them far from Earth (...) News of Horus's treachery did not even reach the Ultramarines untiln the attack on Earth was already underway. Thanks to the speed of Horus's attack there was little that Guilliman could do. (...) Consequently, the Ultramarines were poorly placed to contribute much to the early stages of the Horus Heresy. Their main succes was the destruction of a large force of Chaos Space Marines which was heading to reinforce Horus's position. Afterwards the Ultramarines took part in several important battles to recover human worlds from the dominion of Chaos." It then goes on to descrive the Scouring and events after that.
(Presumably the latter is a reference to Calth.)
Nowhere does it mention them ever heading to Terra to relieve the siege, whereas the 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex explicitly states Johnson and Russ (together) hurrying back as quickly as they could, arriving at Terra to a ruined world, the Emperor dying/dead and the defeated Chaos forces fleeing.
The Ultramarines have always defeated the Word Bearers at Calth, part of the Ultramar Empire, nothing about that is new fluff.
And Horus hears about the WB losing, the UM, DA and SW heading for Terra and lowers the shields, the UM were always heading for Terra, again, nothing is new fluff.
It's not BL making new fluff, this is stuff I knew when I first started reading into the fluff many, many years ago.
Until that novel was written, the battle for Calth took place after the siege of Terra.
I have not read too many of the books yet, but have heard bad things about mr rowboat girlyman.
Is it true he was training his legion how to fight against the loyalist chapters?
Did he really set-up his own little empire as practice for his plans to eventually take over as the new Emperor?
Did the UM really skip most of the major battles, retaining most of their numbers, so they could step in at the last minute and take charge?
From the stuff I have read, it sure seems this way. I have also been told from others who have read many more of both the old books and the new HH books, that this is pretty much how it went down.
No, Robute was loyal, just absent from most of the fighting, and distracted by the Word Bearers on Calth within his own system.
I don't think he wanted to fight his loyalist brethren.
His own empire was set up before he met Empy.
Yes and no. They did fight, but I guess the Word Bearers did an abysmal effort against them. And sure they might have bullied the other legions into being codex-adherent Space Marine chapters, but that might just have been because they needed a more flexible command-structure than having huge Space Marine legions all over the place.
nolzur wrote: I have not read too many of the books yet, but have heard bad things about mr rowboat girlyman.
Is it true he was training his legion how to fight against the loyalist chapters?
Did he really set-up his own little empire as practice for his plans to eventually take over as the new Emperor?
Did the UM really skip most of the major battles, retaining most of their numbers, so they could step in at the last minute and take charge?
From the stuff I have read, it sure seems this way. I have also been told from others who have read many more of both the old books and the new HH books, that this is pretty much how it went down.
Any insights?
a) one of the short stories had him training his sons to fight those who would stay loyal, so yes he did.
b) i'd suggest "imperium secundus" which is most likely a story arc as there seems a "unremembered Empire" to be an upcoming novel. Robot G. was always an empire builder. He grows up like a heir to an empire at Macragge so maybe it was inbreed.. but he doesn't seem to aim for emporer ( but we don't know yet what happens when RG and LJ meet ). Again , until the whole WB vs ultramarines and "unremembered empire" is revealed to us we don't have all the pieces...
c) the Ultras got Lorgar to troll them now, plus like said above the possible story arc seems to be the HH-show of the boys in blue. Thus them "skipping battles" may change.
Is it true he was training his legion how to fight against the loyalist chapters?
Sort of. He had his guys training against the tactics of every legion because he didn't know who they'd end up having to fight. No one was sure who was loyal and who was a traitor yet.
Did he really set-up his own little empire as practice for his plans to eventually take over as the new Emperor?
Ultramar was a sanctioned part of the Imperium blessed by the Emperor's approval. Gulliman is asked by the High Lords of Terra after the Heresy to become the Emperor; he refused and put the Imperium in the hands of humanity. You don't get much more evidence than that.
Did the UM really skip most of the major battles, retaining most of their numbers, so they could step in at the last minute and take charge?
Depends on the canonicity you're using. Prior to the HH series, the Ultramarines weren't even aware a Heresy was going on until the Word Bearers attacked Calth, which was after the siege of Terra.
During the HH series, they're cut off from Terra by warp storms, basically like everyone else.
See previous question about Guilliman's intention to take charge (100% not his motivation).
From the stuff I have read, it sure seems this way. I have also been told from others who have read many more of both the old books and the new HH books, that this is pretty much how it went down.
I vaguely remember some old-style fluff about Guilliman building an empire during the Heresy as well.
It would make sense (old fluff, anyway); he's too far away to directly influence the outcome on Terra, so he fortifies his position to start over in case Horus succeeds in overthrowing the Emperor so humanity will at least have a fighting chance.
Alpharius wrote: For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?
Defeating the 2nd biggest legion
Creating a 2nd empire (just in case)
Whilst also on the way to Terra (probably with a fully written codex astartes and plans for rebuilding already Xerox'd to hand out)
This is not an attack on Gman more of a "how much stuff does BL want this guy to be doing???"
Mind you GW suck at numbers (Chapter sizes for instance), timings (Horus suddenly getting a Chaos boner after one incident) and keep a track of what it writes down.
The Ultramarines have always defeated the Word Bearers at Calth, part of the Ultramar Empire, nothing about that is new fluff.
And Horus hears about the WB losing, the UM, DA and SW heading for Terra and lowers the shields, the UM were always heading for Terra, again, nothing is new fluff.
It's not BL making new fluff, this is stuff I knew when I first started reading into the fluff many, many years ago.
No UM were not the reason Horus lowered shields - combined forces of DA and SW are, on that I'm certain - they stayed completely cut off.. But I'll bet BL will include them (at least one company).....
P.S.
UM were mauled at Calth...It's like you say USA won at Pearl Harbor...bloody fanbosim...
Alpharius wrote: For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?
Or Little Horus does it...
Either of those would be excellent, in my opinion. Either way, we either get a definitive answer to whether Alpharius is trying to fulfill the Cabal's prophecy or we get the redemption of a very dynamic character. Honestly, I'm not sure which one I prefer!
"Whilst the Horus Heresy plunged the Imperium into savagery and civil war, the Ultramarines were engaged on the southern edge of the galaxy. Their very succes had carried them far from Earth (...) News of Horus's treachery did not even reach the Ultramarines untiln the attack on Earth was already underway. Thanks to the speed of Horus's attack there was little that Guilliman could do. (...) Consequently, the Ultramarines were poorly placed to contribute much to the early stages of the Horus Heresy. Their main succes was the destruction of a large force of Chaos Space Marines which was heading to reinforce Horus's position. Afterwards the Ultramarines took part in several important battles to recover human worlds from the dominion of Chaos." It then goes on to descrive the Scouring and events after that.
(Presumably the latter is a reference to Calth.)
Nowhere does it mention them ever heading to Terra to relieve the siege, whereas the 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex explicitly states Johnson and Russ (together) hurrying back as quickly as they could, arriving at Terra to a ruined world, the Emperor dying/dead and the defeated Chaos forces fleeing.
So, how exactly did they destroy a large group of Chaos Reinforcements unless they headed to Terra? Did you think it just happened in some kind of a vacuum? The Ultramarines just magically found a large group of Chaos reinforcements who were even more to the galactic East than them and were heading back?
Bran Dawri wrote: I vaguely remember some old-style fluff about Guilliman building an empire during the Heresy as well.
It would make sense (old fluff, anyway); he's too far away to directly influence the outcome on Terra, so he fortifies his position to start over in case Horus succeeds in overthrowing the Emperor so humanity will at least have a fighting chance.
The Battle of Calth didn't exist as a mauling until the writing of Know No Fear. That novel exists in a version of the Horus Heresy where the timeline has not yet reached the battle of Terra so we don't know why Horus lowers his shields, It could be because it was interfering with his television reception for all we know given how many significant details of the Heresy have changed thus far.
The fluff where the approach of the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves causes Horus to gamble and lower his shields exists in a version of the Horus Heresy where Calth was not a significant battle in the Horus Heresy, and the Word Bearers only succeeded in poisoning Calth's sun as a petty act of revenge before being scattered by a large force of Ultramarines reinforcements from Macragge.
There's also a third version of the fluff where "nobody knows why" Horus lowered his shields, and it dates back further than even the 2nd Edition codex books. And that version has been reprinted several times too.
1) How in blazes should I know? I didn't write that particular piece of background; it's quoted directly from the 2nd edition UM codex.
Possibly the traitors were coming from the southeast, southwest or otherwise headed for earth at an angle from where the UM could stop them? Whereas the UM, being too far away to directly influence the outcome, and with Guilliman's logistical/strategic genius, had already decided to head that way to cut off Horus' reinforcements and thus do what they could to ease the pressure on the defenders?
2) I have made no mention of Calth or what happened there save that one of the "several important battles" in the aftermath presumably references Calth. Or, more likely, that Calth was a later addition to background to flesh out that little blurb a bit more.
3) Disregarding the HH series from BL, from 2nd edition onwards (I don't have a copy of RT - yet), the UM were *never* on their way to Terra. If they were, they were not travelling together with Russ and Johnson and most definitely were too far away to cause Horus any discomfort during the siege.
My quote above is fairly conclusive in that respect. It pretty much literally says "The UM were too far away."
Bran Dawri wrote: 3) Disregarding the HH series from BL, from 2nd edition onwards (I don't have a copy of RT - yet), the UM were *never* on their way to Terra.
This is actually 746,004% wrong.
How does it happen to be so wrong that it bends reality to exceed 100%? No idea. Not a scientist. It's crazy. Science. I tell ya. It does weird things. Multiple Index Astartes articles published from 2002-2004 (original White Dwarf articles were published between 2000 and 2001) definitively list the Ultramarines as headed to Terra. Those aren't the only sources, but they are definitely "from 2nd Edition onward" and not written by the Black Library. You're banging your head against a wall here.
Rogue Trader has no references to the Battle for Terra, as the idea of the Horus Heresy didn't surface until the release of Space Marine (Epic). There are mentions of it later in the Rogue Trader era, but they contain very little definitive material you're looking for.
This is a story that has been told, and retold many times over. You're trying to make a definitive statement that is not only unsupportable, but easily refuted. But worst of all, you're making a definitive statement about a story that doesn't have a definitive version. Like I mentioned, in Codex: Chaos 2nd Edition, it says "Nobody knows" why Horus lowered his shields. And it was reprinted twice in subsequent Chaos Codex books. See the problem here? The fluff isn't consistent. You can't say "X book is right". That's silly. Nearly all of the sources that suggest Horus did it because he was worried about reinforcements, don't even mention who those reinforcements are.
Time to abandon this idea. The Black Library did not, I repeat, did not invent the idea of the Ultramarines heading to Terra. They may not have been part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels caravan, but that's probably because they were coming from another direction. But they were on the way there. And going back almost as far as that bit of fluff goes, they've been on the way, and just missed it. Just like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Why is this so hard to accept? What is it about the Ultramarines that forces people to be so obstinate and angry? If Codex: Angels of Death doesn't mention the Ultramarines, it's because it's a book about the Dark Angels (well, and Blood Angels). If Guilliman and Lionel didn't fist-bump on the way to Terra, then there's no reason to mention them. Codex: Ultramarines doesn't mention the Space Wolves and Dark Angels going to Terra. Does that mean they didn't? Of course not.
Is it true he was training his legion how to fight against the loyalist chapters?
Sort of. He had his guys training against the tactics of every legion because he didn't know who they'd end up having to fight. No one was sure who was loyal and who was a traitor yet.
.
No he was training his men to fight Salemanders. When one of his men questioned him about it he told him that he had to be prepared that some of the loyalist brothers might not like his plans for the new Imperium and he may have to convince them by force.
And thats exactly what happened. THe Imperial Fist resisted his ideas and the forces under the UM attacked the Imperial Fist. The Imperial Fist probably would have actually fought a war had it not been for the fact they had suffered too much during the siege of Terra and the Iron Cage while the UMs were damn near fresh (compared to everyone else)
Bran Dawri wrote: Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that because the HH series is so incredibly terribad and rewrites stuff for no apparent reason as well as completely changing everything I like about my two favorite chapters (SW and TS), I'm going to just ignore it and say it doesn't exist.
I've been much happier since I did that.
I honostly dont see how anyone can not like the HH series.
I dont like a few books (as in the topics are so unappealing I dont even read them ) in the series but thats different from disliking the entire thing and I have enjoyed every book ive read so far. (Prospero Burns, Legion, Outcast Dead are the exceptions)
Bran Dawri wrote: 3) Disregarding the HH series from BL, from 2nd edition onwards (I don't have a copy of RT - yet), the UM were *never* on their way to Terra.
This is actually 746,004% wrong.
How does it happen to be so wrong that it bends reality to exceed 100%? No idea. Not a scientist. It's crazy. Science. I tell ya. It does weird things. Multiple Index Astartes articles published from 2002-2004 (original White Dwarf articles were published between 2000 and 2001) definitively list the Ultramarines as headed to Terra. Those aren't the only sources, but they are definitely "from 2nd Edition onward" and not written by the Black Library. You're banging your head against a wall here.
Rogue Trader has no references to the Battle for Terra, as the idea of the Horus Heresy didn't surface until the release of Space Marine (Epic). There are mentions of it later in the Rogue Trader era, but they contain very little definitive material you're looking for.
This is a story that has been told, and retold many times over. You're trying to make a definitive statement that is not only unsupportable, but easily refuted. But worst of all, you're making a definitive statement about a story that doesn't have a definitive version. Like I mentioned, in Codex: Chaos 2nd Edition, it says "Nobody knows" why Horus lowered his shields. And it was reprinted twice in subsequent Chaos Codex books. See the problem here? The fluff isn't consistent. You can't say "X book is right". That's silly. Nearly all of the sources that suggest Horus did it because he was worried about reinforcements, don't even mention who those reinforcements are.
Time to abandon this idea. The Black Library did not, I repeat, did not invent the idea of the Ultramarines heading to Terra. They may not have been part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels caravan, but that's probably because they were coming from another direction. But they were on the way there. And going back almost as far as that bit of fluff goes, they've been on the way, and just missed it. Just like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Why is this so hard to accept? What is it about the Ultramarines that forces people to be so obstinate and angry? If Codex: Angels of Death doesn't mention the Ultramarines, it's because it's a book about the Dark Angels (well, and Blood Angels). If Guilliman and Lionel didn't fist-bump on the way to Terra, then there's no reason to mention them. Codex: Ultramarines doesn't mention the Space Wolves and Dark Angels going to Terra. Does that mean they didn't? Of course not.
They didn't *just* miss it. They were so far away, news of Horus' betrayal didn't reach them until the siege was already underway.
DA book specifically states that the two of them were on their way to Terra.
UM book says they were too far away, and their only early contribution was defeating a bunch of chaos reinforcements. It's entirely possible to intercept people going somewhere without heading in the same direction. Hence the term "intercepting"; it'd be overtaking them, otherwise...
Again, come up with some references or quotes from your supposed 2nd edition sources. Despite what you may think, I'm not unreasonable - I've already conceded that the UM were indeed more numerous than the other chapters put together after the Scouring upon checking the Codex.
I've heard a lot about your sources (from you) by now. Put your money where your mouth is, so I can check it out.
@ Galdos: To each their own, I suppose. I much preferred the Heresy when it was just a smattering of tales from a near-legendary past and no one knew exactly what happened, leaving it as just a cool part of 40K's background without too much (mostly disappointing) flesh to it.
Il bet that the only way the Horus vs Emperor fight is even remotely even will be because the Emperor is weakened/drained from sitting in the Golden chair.
But by then in about 5 - 10 years time the quality of the books will have gone to far south, there are more and more face palm/really stupidity moments in the latest four books than in the first ones with Betrayer being one of the most stupid books i ever read. If i face palmed for real i would have had a hand imprint in my face after that one... That being said, there are some books in there that are good, but they are very few.
Horus let the Emperor onto his ship [/u]on purpose.[u] He wanted to fight him. Horus was asking for a beatdown. If he hadn't died then he would have won the whole heresy war.
You're gonna flail wildly at this one to the death aren't you?
If the are too far to the East, what direction can they go and still find Chaos guys? If the answer isn't "west", present an even slightly rational explanation.
Please do. That ought to be funny. Or ludicrously stupid. One of the two. It will suffice for our purposes.
Look. I understand you're having a hard time being wrong. I understand that you want to keep changing the parameters of the argument until you figure one out that makes you right. You said "since at least 2nd Edition." You said "I can think of absolutely no effing reason whatsoever to change it" I've shown you subsequent sources that predate The Black Library. I showed you sources that demonstrate that the fluff has definitively included the Ultramarines, that are likely older than your experience with the game if you don't have any Rogue Trader material on hand.
Even better, and this is the part where you are allowed to just go run off and hide, you said "With old fluff then having the Ultramarines, just like everyone else, trying to get there ASAP, but just being too far away and delayed too much by the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion to make the difference". The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion involvement in the Ultima Segmentum didn't get detailed in the fluff until the Index Astartes articles. That's right kiddo. You tried to use 3rd Edition fluff to support your argument for 2nd Edition. And then tried to change the parameters of the discussion to exclude 3rd Edition fluff sources? Child, please.
In the wise words of Hudson, "Game over man. Game over."
Nobody has a hard-on for the Ultramarines. Nobody is making changes to the fluff. You're just unwilling to accept the reality of the situation. Yeah, Codex: Ultramarines was kinda vague. Subsequent material from the same era, written while the same guys were in charge of 40K fluff, was more clear. Nothing about what is written in Codex: Ultramarines says the Ultramarines didn't go to Terra. It's one short paragraph that just says that they didn't fight at Terra. That's an important distinction to make, considering the subsequent fluff that is longer than a single paragraph says they did go there.
I know you really, really wanted to win this. I know you really, really thought you had. Sorry man. This is the deep end of the pool where the big kids swim. Not a good place to be if you're still using Fluff Floaties. One of these days, you'll get to be Harrison Ford. This time, you're River Phoenix.
OK, I'll bite one last time.
1) Point to where I said that I disallow 3rd edition sources.
2) 2nd edition codices are the easiest to access as they tend to have most of the information in one place, so that's what I used.
3) Whether they never left for Terra, were delayed too much by the Word Bearers, or whether angels paved the way and laid out the red carpet is irrelevant. The point was, and is that in all cases, all existing background that I could track down states outright that the UM were too far away to make a difference.
IA: Ultramarines does state that the UM headed for Terra ASAP upon hearing the news. It also pretty much copy-pastes everything else from C: UM 2nd edition; ie the UM were always too far away and heard the news far too late.
IA: Alpha Legion says the Alpha Legion moved east *after* Horus' defeat where they met and trolled the UM who were only then heading to Terra. Again, much too late.
It even goes so far as to suggest that it's possible the UM weren't heading to Terra but were going after the Alpha Legion as they were the only traitor legion close enough for them to vent their rage on. (Possibly by the Alpha Legion's choice.)
These are the *only* two sources I can find that say the UM were even on their way, and both of them say they weren't anywhere near Terra when the final showdown went down.
Everything else, from 2nd ed C: UM to the most recent, only states that they couldn't help with the siege, but were instrumental in holding the Imperium together and rebuilding it afterwards.
IA: Word Bearers directly contradicts the UM being able to move to Terra, as it has Kor Phaeron and a bunch of WB dudes chasing the UM back to Ultramar during the Heresy. It's kinda hard to advance towards Terra when you're being pushed back to your home system far east from it.
IA: Black Legion, IA: World Eaters, and a description of the Siege of the Imperial Palace in the former both state that Horus lowered his shields when word came of the combined Dark Angel and Space Wolves fleets which "were only hours away".
Thanks for playing. While your attitude has led me to the ignore button, I do thank you for getting me to dig up a bunch of old WDs with cool stuff in them that I will enjoy perusing again.
Bran Dawri wrote: IA: Ultramarines does state that the UM headed for Terra ASAP upon hearing the news. .
So then we're done here.
Good lord. Was that so hard? You had to turn this into some long, drawn out process instead of just listening when everyone told you what the reality was?
I will admit, your snippy attempt to salvage your ego by pretending that one line doesn't undo everything you said was kinda funny.
I prefer the interpretation that Horus was on the verge of winning, and he wanted to kill the Emperor personally. He wanted the Emperor to answer personally for everything he put Horus through and every injustice his Imperium stood for. Horus wouldn't settle for nuking the Emperor from orbit or having him mauled by thousands of World Eaters.
That was why he let the Emperor come to him.
The battle between then wasn't about the Imperium striking down the Traitor Legions. It wasn't about the ultimate conflict between law and chaos. The battle between Horus and the Emperor was just father and son, and all the pain they'd caused each other.
It was irrational of Horus. But, the Heresy was not born of rationality. Horus' rebellion was born of ambition and loathing in equal measure. It was an expression of Horus' irrational discontent towards the universe as a whole. He was one of the most powerful, most esteemed, most privileged men in the universe and he wanted more.
When he beat the Emperor he still wanted more. Knowing that the Emperor was dead wouldn't be enough. The Emperor needed to suffer, and at Horus' hands.
The Horus Heresy was doomed from the beginning, because of the motivation behind it. Even if it had succeeded and the Emperor slain, Horus still wouldn't have been satisfied.
Even if Horus rationalized the beginning of his betrayal with the idea that he would "rescue" humanity from the Emperor, it really comes down to a kind of nihilism: "let the galaxy burn."
In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.
The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.
So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.
In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.
The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.
So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.
There is a lot wrong here, like everythign about it is wrong.
First, learn what a Pyrrhic victory is.
A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated. examples: The British had a Pyrric Victory during the Battle of Bunker Hill, even though they drove the Americans from the field of battle, the casulties the Brits suffered were so bad, they had to abandon the city of Boston (A Brit soldier wrote "another victory like that and we will loose the war") The Tet Offensive could be argured a victory for the Americans. Even though the Americans completely destroyed the NVA, the very fact that battle happened caused the US military to lose support for the war back home. This would be vital in allowing the North to convince the US to a peace treaty.
For it to be a Pyrrhic Victory, Horus had to conquer Terra.
Second you used these game terms which is completely ridiculous. Those are there to simply help gamers figure out who won when both sides loose 90%
The goal of Horus was to kill the Emperor and take over the Imperium. The Imperial goal is to defeat Horus attack, you dont even need to kill him to achieve this, you just need to drive him off. (This simply means the war will go on longer)
-Horus is killed
-The Emperor lives (he was alive at the time clearly, he also still rules the imperium now, even if only in name)
-The Imperium survives
- The organized armies of Chaos retreat
-The armies of Chaos turn on each other
+ They killed Sanguinius
+ They injured the Emperor
Sweet jesus this was an outstanding success for the Imperium judging from this here. The Imperium survived and Horus and his army was destroyed with Horus killed. They retreat to the Eye of Terror to start licking their wounds and having a power struggle.
The Imperium also begans to lick their wounds but Guilliman takes charge and continues to lead the Imperium on the way it was suppose to be, especially sense the Emperor is still in power on the Golden Throne.
Hundreds, if not thousands of years AFTER the battle, Guilliman is dead, and the Emperor is too weak to talk to his council so they must rule for him. That is why the Imperium changed, but that doesnt mean the Imperium changed and the forces of Chaos rejoice because the Imperium and the Emperor still live.
No the Battle of Terra was a MASSIVE LOSS for Horus and his armies. Now for the Chaos Gods? Thats a different story, thats actually a marginal victory for the Chaos Gods
In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.
The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.
So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.
This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.
Alpharius wrote: For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?
Or Little Horus does it...
If the latter, interesting, but Aximand strikes me as someone who has convinced himself he's right, certainly after they reattached his face. If the former, I will burn the galaxy myself because it's Alpha Sue Legion.
A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated.
Victory can be defined differently by the belligerents and there might be different goals that together constitute victory for either. Horus wanted to destroy the Imperium and and he wanted to kill the Emperor and he wanted to rule whatever was left. He arguably achieved the first two and unarguably failed to achieve the last. So he could be said to have been victorious at least in some sense. Now, as a separate matter, what is a Pyrrhic victory? As you say, it requires victory. We've established that we have a victory here, to some extent. What else does it require? A high cost -- in fact a cost so high that further "victories" of the same sort would mean defeat. That sounds on-point. The Traitors achieved most of their goals at the cost of enormous casualties, from which they would never recover, and their Warmaster. If they had attempted another Siege of Terra back then or even if they attempted it today, they would likely be utterly and forever devastated. Hence, if you accept that Horus was victorious at Terra in some sense, it is correct to characterize that achievement as a Pyrrhic victory. Of course, whether Horus did accomplish some of his goals is a matter of debate.
A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated.
Victory can be defined differently by the belligerents and there might be different goals that together constitute victory for either. Horus wanted to destroy the Imperium and and he wanted to kill the Emperor and he wanted to rule whatever was left. He arguably achieved the first two and unarguably failed to achieve the last. So he could be said to have been victorious at least in some sense. Now, as a separate matter, what is a Pyrrhic victory? As you say, it requires victory. We've established that we have a victory here, to some extent. What else does it require? A high cost -- in fact a cost so high that further "victories" of the same sort would mean defeat. That sounds on-point. The Traitors achieved most of their goals at the cost of enormous casualties, from which they would never recover, and their Warmaster. If they had attempted another Siege of Terra back then or even if they attempted it today, they would likely be utterly and forever devastated. Hence, if you accept that Horus was victorious at Terra in some sense, it is correct to characterize that achievement as a Pyrrhic victory. Of course, whether Horus did accomplish some of his goals is a matter of debate.
Oh ya had the forces of Chaos won it would have been a Pyrrhic Victory just one problem, the Imperium clearly won it
The Emperor survived, he was injured but being injured does not mean the same as killing. He is unable to give commands but he is still able to control the Astronomical.
The Imperium survived under the rule of Guilliman for several more years until Fulgrim finally eleminated him. Even so the Imperium still survived.
The traitors failed to achieve any of their goals. They were driven from the field of battle in disgrace, their army was divided, their leader killed, their opponent survived and remained in power. This was a complete defeat for them in everyway.
Oh ya had the forces of Chaos won it would have been a Pyrrhic Victory just one problem, the Imperium clearly won it
The Emperor survived, he was injured but being injured does not mean the same as killing. He is unable to give commands but he is still able to control the Astronomical. The Imperium survived under the rule of Guilliman for several more years until Fulgrim finally eleminated him. Even so the Imperium still survived.
The traitors failed to achieve any of their goals. They were driven from the field of battle in disgrace, their army was divided, their leader killed, their opponent survived and remained in power. This was a complete defeat for them in everyway.
Interesting. Consider this: the stated reason the Emperor founded the Imperium was to reunite humanity across the galaxy, purge it of xenos and destroy religion in all forms.
After the siege of Terra, the Imperium was turned on it's head. The galaxy is far from being reunited, it is certainly overrun by Xenos of all stripes, shapes and colors; and instead of purging religion the muppets call the Emperor a God and actively worship him. I'd say Horus clearly won on that point.
Next, I'm not sure I'd say the Emperor "survived" as such; he was turned into a flashlight immediately after the battle. I guess you could call that survival...I wouldn't. Another win for Horus.
To be fair, Horus was obliterated: so, he lost that point.
Regarding goals: you can achieve your objectives while being driven from the field. Horus did this in spades because the galaxy started burning and still continues to do so while the Imperium falls further and further into the grips of Chaos. Even if he had killed the Emperor, Horus would have left Terra simply because the inbound loyal legions would have destroyed the rest of his forces. He knew he had a single opportunity to claim his objective; and he did it.
So, to sum up: Pyrrhic victory goes to Horus.
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Veteran Sergeant wrote: This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.
Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.
There seems to be a lot of imperial love here so I will say this. The Big E is pretty much dead. Pskers and man power that could be used to fight chaos are instead used to keep him alive. Meanwhile every space marine legion is neutered. Technology is being lost and the cadian gate is as good as gone when the 13th crusade kicks off.
Chaos doesn't care about time. Just results. Horus took the emp out of the fight and every known loyal primarch is dead or missing.
sfshilo wrote: There seems to be a lot of imperial love here so I will say this. The Big E is pretty much dead. Pskers and man power that could be used to fight chaos are instead used to keep him alive. Meanwhile every space marine legion is neutered. Technology is being lost and the cadian gate is as good as gone when the 13th crusade kicks off.
Chaos doesn't care about time. Just results. Horus took the emp out of the fight and every known loyal primarch is dead or missing.
That doesn't seem like much of a victory.
Yeah, IoM won phyrric victory IMHO,...But if you look at end result, clearly chaos won.....
- IoM is in stagnation ruled by a corrupt system
- loyal primarchs are zero active
- fanatics and heretics who would be burned in emperor's time roam free
- emperor is a meatbag
- I and Gk are fueling chaos more then WE did in pre-heresy
Veteran Sergeant wrote: This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.
Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.
Or in this case, where history was written by a bunch of British in the late 80s, early 90s.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.
Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.
Or in this case, where history was written by a bunch of British in the late 80s, early 90s.
Horus's goals are somewhat mysterious. McNeill has him wanting to "save" humanity from the tyrant Emperor on Davin. But Horus doesn't seem too interested in that at any other point. Other writers have him wanting to be the new emperor. This seems rather petty, in a way. There remains, however, his enigamatic prophesy "Let the galaxy burn." Truly, this is the goal of Chaos.
Now, considering that the Imperium is at its core not some polity but rather the on-going unity of all mankind, then its opposite must be Chaos. Notice that the entire scope of the Heresy, from its seeds unto its final outcome, seems to be Chaos seeping into the Imperium. The reunification of Terra, by contrast, was seemingly not troubled by Chaos. But as soon as the Emperor took a major step toward unifying humanity, i.e., by creating the Primarchs, Chaos stepped in.
In this sense, I really wonder if Horus had goals in the military sense we are used to talking about or, perhaps more precisely, if they even mattered. In the final analysis, it seems that Horus was merely the pawn of Chaos. If that's true, the perhaps "let the galaxy burn" was his only meaningful mission statement -- namely that he would usher in an era where the Great Crusade could never come to fulfillment, where mankind could never be truly unified -- not only as a matter of overcoming the threats from without but forever making this unity vulnerable to the threats from within.
In other words, if that is true then Horus did certainly achieve his mission ... or again, more precisely, the mission of Chaos.
Interesting. Consider this: the stated reason the Emperor founded the Imperium was to reunite humanity across the galaxy, purge it of xenos and destroy religion in all forms.
Wrong, the Emperor founded the Imperium to save Humanity. He would do this by purging xenos because xenos could not be trusted and destroying religion his hope being that if no religion exist people would not fall into Chaos. He wanted people to see there is no gods out there, only logic and reason.
After the siege of Terra, the Imperium was turned on it's head. The galaxy is far from being reunited, it is certainly overrun by Xenos of all stripes, shapes and colors; and instead of purging religion the muppets call the Emperor a God and actively worship him. I'd say Horus clearly won on that point.
That just means the war is not over, this isnt an actual point as much as the setting. Thats like saying the Allies lost D-Day because Germany still existed. That has nothing to do with the battle in Normandy (Battle of Terra)
Horus did not create a master plan that see the Emperor turned into a God, in fact he wanted to STOP that very thing from occuring. However, the fact the Emperor is now a God has nothing to do with the Battle of Terra because it occured so many years later. You wouldnt say Napoleon died at Waterloo because Waterloo saw him banished to that one island where he would die because he felt he failed. Whats the wording Im looking for? The Emperor becoming a god is not caused by the results of the Battle of Terra, but the results of the battle of Terra contribute to it.
Next, I'm not sure I'd say the Emperor "survived" as such; he was turned into a flashlight immediately after the battle. I guess you could call that survival...I wouldn't.
The Emperor still lives able to use himself as the light of the Astronomical allowing the Imperium to survive and mankind to move among the starts. This is huge thing for the Imperium because had the Emperor died, no one would have controlled the Astronomical and the Imperium would have collapsed. Ya its not survival like how we know it but would you say that Stephan Hawkings wasnt really alive because he could do anything phyiscally? That he wasnt really alive.
Regarding goals: you can achieve your objectives while being driven from the field. Horus did this in spades because the galaxy started burning and still continues to do so while the Imperium falls further and further into the grips of Chaos. Even if he had killed the Emperor, Horus would have left Terra simply because the inbound loyal legions would have destroyed the rest of his forces. He knew he had a single opportunity to claim his objective; and he did it.
Yes you can thats right. The problem is you dont seem to understand what Horus objective was. His plan was to kill the Emperor and install himself in the Emperor's place. THIS IS KEY. Horus wants to CONTROL THE IMPERIUM. Horus plan is kill the Emperor, and from the palace on Terra, force the other legions to surrender and unite with him as a family. Horus would now be in control of the Imperium as many of the defenders of the Imperium would turn sides once the Council of Terra tells them too which they would if the Emperor died and Horus told them to do it. Horus does not want the forces of Chaos to destroy the Imperium, the Imperium its "rightfully" his to command.
So lets look at this again.
A Pyrrhic victory is when the side THAT WON THE BATTLE did it as such a cost, it is considered a strategic defeat. Its a Tactical victory that is also a strategic defeat.
For the battle to be a tactical victory, Horus needs to control Terra.
Horus goals are:
To Conquer Terra
To take control of the Imperium (NOT TO DESTROY IT, Do not mix up the forces of Chaos with Horus, they desire different things)
To kill the Emperor
The Imperiums goals are
To hold Terra
to drive Horus back
THATS IT! If every single traitor was killed to the man and the Emperor died. The Imperium would still emerge victorious against the forces of Horus. The Council of Terra can rule the Imperium until Guilliman arrives to take charge. was be a costly battle with the Emperor dead but now he is a Martyr and Martyrs can sometimes do more in death than in life. As long as the Imperium survives things are okay. (What would happen about the astronmical could be question later)
Lets look at the results of the battle
Horus is killed
The traitor legions retreat
the traitor legions are leaderless and turn on each other.
The Imperium still stands.
There are still leaders governing the Imperium
The Emperor retains enough of his strength to control the Astronomical.
Now lets look at 10k years later. Is the Emperor still contoling the Astronomical? Yes. Does the Imperium still do its job of protecting humanity from the the xenos? Yes it still fights the good fight (note this means the war is still ongoing) Is the Imperium a place of science? No, however that is because the Emperor could not lead it properly anymore and the Council of Terra decided to take a different method to save Humanity different from the Emperor's vision. Saying that Horus won at Terra because it no longer is the same beliefs it once was is like saying that Britain won the American Revolution because America is now a global power with several strong alliances with other nations, something George Washington (the first President/father of the nation) was very against. All this means is that the nation is taking a very different approach from the original vision. Religion is massive, see the previous sentince.
The war is still going on but that does not mean that the Battle of Terra is a success for Horus because the war is still going 10k years later. It just means the war is still going 10k years later.
Horus lost BAD. Horus was crushed and it took thousands of years before the forces of Horus could fight again as a massive army. Horus failed to accomplish his plans for the Battle of Terra and it cost him his life in the process. Also remember that achieving 1 objective you set for yourself does not mean you won the battle. The Imperium was the clear cut winner of the battle though the Imperium won at a great cost. Do not mistake the Imperium winning at a great cost with Horus emerging victorious.
It was a Pyrrhic victory, but for the IOM. The term comes from Pyrrhos a ruler of an Eastern kingdom, he fought the Romans. And he won but his victory was so costly that he told his advisers: "One more victory like this and we are undone."
For the IOM the Horus Heresy ended in a Pyrrhic victory because they are in tatters, on his deathbed Empy finally embraced that humans need to believe in something and the traitors rooted up the Imperium to such a degree that it's left to rot while they come from time to time from the warp to wreak havoc upon the IOM. If anyone won then it's the Ruinous Powers who got the powerbase they needed with the ruined husk that is the IOM today.
Beaviz81 wrote: It was a Pyrrhic victory, but for the IOM. The term comes from Pyrrhos a ruler of an Eastern kingdom, he fought the Romans. And he won but his victory was so costly that he told his advisers: "One more victory like this and we are undone."
For the IOM the Horus Heresy ended in a Pyrrhic victory because they are in tatters, on his deathbed Empy finally embraced that humans need to believe in something and the traitors rooted up the Imperium to such a degree that it's left to rot while they come from time to time from the warp to wreak havoc upon the IOM. If anyone won then it's the Ruinous Powers who got the powerbase they needed with the ruined husk that is the IOM today.
Thank you for posting it correctly.
I would not call that a Pyrrhic Victory personally but yes I can see how someone could make that argument. I simply dont agree but no problem.
Chaos definetly won in Battle of Terra though they only won a minor victory, it was still a victory. They achieved the only goal they cared about, stop the Emperor and his success in his fight against Chaos.
So you are distinguishing between Chaos and Horus? That's not a bad point. Horus was used by Chaos -- I wonder to what extent Horus was even aware of Chaos.
Manchu wrote: So you are distinguishing between Chaos and Horus? That's not a bad point. Horus was used by Chaos -- I wonder to what extent Horus was even aware of Chaos.
He knew he had support but ya I wonder how much support he realized he had.
After all, he knew Fulgrim was a daemon and the Death Guard are all Plague Marines but Horus never seemed to acknowledge them.
Manchu wrote: So you are distinguishing between Chaos and Horus? That's not a bad point. Horus was used by Chaos -- I wonder to what extent Horus was even aware of Chaos.
He knew he had support but ya I wonder how much support he realized he had.
After all, he knew Fulgrim was a daemon and the Death Guard are all Plague Marines but Horus never seemed to acknowledge them.
I think Horus was very aware of Chaos, as the Heresy progressed Erebus was not the only one to have the denizens of the warp reveal secrets to him. I think the problem for Horus was holding on to his rebellion and remaining its leader. The Chaos Gods had there own plans for the way they wanted things to work out and Lorgar seems to have gone along with this and Horus second. The end of Fear to Tread seems to be Horus, having lost some control, attempting to regain his authority and saying, I am the architect of this war, not the Dark Gods. By the end of the Hersey he seems to have lost himself fully to their influence however, only being released in his final moments.
Horus seems to be little more than a pawn, with the Chaos Gods recognising his ability to unite his brothers, but Lorgar the true benefactor of the outcome of the Heresy. Whether it was the one he wanted or not we don't know, I don't believe it was hence his seclusion on Sicarus.
Having to be master to the likes of Angron and Perturabo must have been in itself a challenge.
Also on How did Horus lose? He didn't have Dorn on his team, that's how
Zanderchief wrote: I am sure this kind of thing has been discussed before but I can't figure it out.
He effectively took 3 legions out of the fight with the Istvaan campaign.
Also he had the Ultras and Space Wolves tied up. Also didn't he send orders to distract the Blood Angels too?
I am not familiar with all the fluff so far and it gets a little hazy in the details during the middle part of the war.
I know the traitors were broken at Terra due to Horus's death (though I dunno why - they apparently massively outnumbered the defenders).
Anyone shed some light on it?
Have you ever played Total war?
If your general dies, gaks gone down. He may not be the best fighter, but he's still your leader. You have no one to tell you what to do, so you do the simplest command you can give yourself: soil yourself and run away.
Then they will realize the Ultras being a negative thing and they will retcon them out of existence 
in order to escape accusations of being racist.
