HI

I just finished reading the outcast dead and in it it mentions that just like the thunder warriors the SM and Primarchs were to be thrown away just like the thunder warriors, once their use is completed.

Ie conquoring the galaxy and killing all xenos and those who worshiped gods.

Could this be the reason why the emperor with his perfection and genius, made the the Primarchs and SM with genetic flaws that lead to mutation ??

What do you guys think? Im not sure myself - I do know that the primarchs were meant to be his generals and that once we got the webway going he would get aurelian to start up the god-emperor worship so he could become a god to counter chaos

Thoughts??

I am pretty sure he meant to disgaurd them when he was done , yes. That was his MO.

I've not read any of the Black Library novels, but the idea that the Space Marines were supposed to be temporal isn't that new. And I suppose it is possible that the Emperor may have regarded them as a simple tool for a specific job (Great Crusade), to be discarded once it is done.

It depends on how the Emperor felt about humanity, I think. Given that he had the opportunity to make the Astartes so much superior to ordinary people, there might have been a risk that they would start to dominate and then displace them - like an artificial step of evolution where the superior species supersedes the lesser. One of the reasons for why I think he made them sterile - though that detail is not covered in any way anywhere but merely personal opinion and preference, thus not warranting any discussion.

Thinking about it, maybe some Space Marines gained a measure of insight into the Emperor's plans for them, thus adding another reason for the Horus Heresy ...

He definitely had plans for Magnus -- he wanted to put him on the Golden Throne ... and I don't mean, make him the new Emperor.

 Manchu wrote:
He definitely had plans for Magnus -- he wanted to put him on the Golden Throne ... and I don't mean, make him the new Emperor.

The corpse on the golden throne was the Emperor in the current timeline. Chaos just showed it to Magnus with the wrong caption under it. Surprise Daemons lie.

The Primarchs were not going to get tossed after the Great Crusade. The legions maybe... Probably.

However the Primarch had estates built inside the Imperial Palace for after the Crusade. As seen in Deliverance Lost. The important thing to note is that there are 20 of them not 18 (2 gone) and not 9 (9 went to Chaos). Which shows that the Big E had a place in his home for his sons.

Horus had his marines expand their minds into other such things other than war so the wouldn't become obselete and discarded. A good example is Loken talking with that iterater or how ever you say it, from the first three HH novels anyway.

So if the Emperor' right hand man was preparing his men for peace maybe it was done with a nod from the big E. But then again he didn't tell them everything and could of lied to Horus about what was to happen to them.

I sort of assume Empy made the Thunder Warriors first to get control over Terra and it's surrounding, then the Space Marines was phase two of his plan which was to unite all humanity. Then the final phase in his plans seem to have been the Custodians. Harder to produce but far stabler than the Space Marines. So yeah Empy planned to get rid of the Space Marines, and phase them out like he did with the Thunder Warriors for something better and more stable. The Horus Heresy seem to have happened before he could get to that third step.

There was a residential area customized for all 20 Primarchs in the Imperial Palace, so even Magnus was not meant to permanently stay on the Golden Throne, as the technology would have been streamlined and improved eventually to not need a psyker to continually keep the Imperial Webway functioning. And pre-Heresy Horus mentioned the Legiones Astartes were meant to be re-integrated into normal society after the Great Crusade was over. So yes, they would be discarded, but not killed. The Emperor apparently had further plans for the Primarchs that apparently involved them eventually going into seclusion with him within the Imperial Palace.

The house can just as well have been a prison, where Empy just used them for their strengths. Some he would likely put into comas, like Magnus and place him on the Golden Throne. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he used Mortarion in the same fashion once in a while to recharge Magnus. To be honest Empy made three versions of the ultimate warrior, each one was better than the last. The Space Marines were imperfect, but before the plan was set into motion the HH happened.

I do not think so. AFAIK, the Emperor was ultimately going to go into seclusion himself once the plan was complete; the Emperor would simply be the shadow ruler of the Imperium - pretty much the same as the 41st Millennium except he wouldn't be a god - while the Council of Terra governed the Imperium. I mean, we do know the Emperor wanted normal Humans to be the ultimate governors of his empire. The Emperor and his Primarchs would just go into seclusion until they and the Legiones Astartes would be needed again (the existing ones would be re-integrated back into society). As for Magnus, the idea the Golden Throne would not be improved and streamlined to allow the Imperial Webway to function without someone on the master control at all times is ludicrous, given the Imperium's progressive nature at the time.

How do you reintegrate someone back in society when their blood is poison and they are spitting acid? It ain't like they can settle down and make families. Try kiss one and there went your tongue and teeth.

He probably didn't want to kill them outright. They weren't insane like the thunder warriors, he would probably disband the Legio Astartes and tell them that their long earned rest for peace came at last. Probably have rehabilitation programs to make them learn how to cope with daily living etc. But they would be reinstated if the imperium would need them (probably when the tyranids came)

Primarchs were his sons, he loved them all, and he knew that he should keep them because they would be quite useful, spend immortality with his relatives sounded nice.

How do you reintegrate someone back in society when their blood is poison and they are spitting acid? It ain't like they can settle down and make families. Try kiss one and there went your tongue and teeth.

Remember they are Warriors and Soldiers, they know what peace time means, it would be hard yes, but probably they could have it reversed seeing as how the emperor doesn't like permanent plans.

The Iterators would have to take care of that. Actually, the Salamanders Legion would be the easiest to re-integrate, seeing as they actually keep contact with their families and are part of normal society on their homeworld as artisans and metal-workers. They'd probably be the model for re-integration.

As for what need would bring out the Primarchs and the Emperor from seclusion, the Tyranids maybe? Necrons? Or the Imperium and Humanity falling into the same trap as the ancient Eldar?

It's hard to imagine the Great Crusade being permanently completed. Yeah, you could eliminate all xenos and retake every planet but that wouldn't mean the end of war. The Legions might have gotten smaller but it's hard to imagine doing away with them completely.

Maybe when they meant the Great Crusade ending, it meant the situation would be such that the regular Imperial Army and other non-Astartes forces could handle everything on their own without any further need for the Legiones Astartes.

It's grimdark, not rehabilitating criminals we are talking about. I mean this is basically emotionally stunted men who knows only war. They can't function in peace. Empy had a dark plan for them, and that's nothing mew, he betrayed the Thunder Warriors, so he could easily follow the same pattern with the Space Marines.

The Great Crusade-era Imperium was not grimdark. It was an age of progress, reclamation, hope, exploration and conquest, when the Imperium was young and vigorous, its claim to the galaxy virtually unchallenged. Unlike now, with the Imperium barely holding itself together and surrounded by countless enemies.

The "Final Solution" for the Space Marines has never been entirely clear.

Certainly, some of the Primarchs and Marines feared they would be obsolete and discarded after the Great Crusade was finished.

For some of the Primarchs (Angron, Curze, etc), that fear was probably legitimate. For others like Guilliman, he was already preparing for the next phase of the Imperium where the Space Marines would have to take on a role other than conquerors.

For that reason, I find it unlikely the Space Marines were going to be discarded. The Thunder Warriors were discarded because the Emperor had created something better. Unless the Emperor was working on Space Marines v. 2.0, there was little reason for the Space Marines to fear that they'd become obsolete and unneeded. It's a big galaxy that will always have people and things in it to kill.

Yeah, and the Crusade-era IOM planned to replace the Space Marines with something better, just like the Thunder Warriors were displaced. The Astartes would be thinned out, then in swift strikes eliminated by the Custodians. Then the IOM would defeat everything else, and you would have Peacehammer 40.000 with Custodians guarding the very peaceful galaxy while nothing but humans would be existing. Magnus would be powering the Webway, and humans would evolve into powerful controlled psykers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yeah, and the Crusade-era IOM planned to replace the Space Marines with something better, just like the Thunder Warriors were displaced. The Astartes would be thinned out, then in swift strikes eliminated by the Custodians. Then the IOM would defeat everything else, and you would have Peacehammer 40.000 with Custodians guarding the very peaceful galaxy while nothing but humans would be existing. Magnus would be powering the Webway, and humans would evolve into powerful controlled psykers.

And the chaos gods would die.

That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

 sumi808 wrote:
HI

I just finished reading the outcast dead and in it it mentions that just like the thunder warriors the SM and Primarchs were to be thrown away just like the thunder warriors, once their use is completed.

Ie conquoring the galaxy and killing all xenos and those who worshiped gods.

Could this be the reason why the emperor with his perfection and genius, made the the Primarchs and SM with genetic flaws that lead to mutation ??

What do you guys think? Im not sure myself - I do know that the primarchs were meant to be his generals and that once we got the webway going he would get aurelian to start up the god-emperor worship so he could become a god to counter chaos

Thoughts??

I see several flaws in your theory.

Genetic disability did not seem to be such a big problem for most of the space marines. There were only three legions with very unstable genes (Blood Angels, Space Wolfs and Thousand Sons.) Other Legions only suffered from minor changes in their genetic makeup, changes that would only surfaced much later on in the timeline and were of no real consequence for the respective chapters.

Then we have a bunch of SMs, whose geneseed after 10,000 years still remain pure and reproductive, these are the Ultramarines and Dark Angels (several CSMs, like Night Lords apparently also have stable geneseed.) So the Emperor wanting to knockoff the space marines via genetic mutations, seems pretty dang unlikely in IMO.

As I recall, the Luna Wolves and the Emperor's Children also had exceptional gene-seed quality.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Guilliman was already preparing the Ultramarines for life after war as planetary governors and rulers of Ultramar.

Salamanders, Iron Warriors, and Iron Hands could have easily retired as craftsmen and architects, Angel Exterminatus makes it very clear that this is something the Iron Warriors excel in (building things, not just destroying them, and not just bunkers and the like).

If the plan was, as someone suggested, for psykers to become more accepted in society, the Thousand Sons would have been a model for that, perhaps being sent to different planets to train the psyker population there.

The more civilized Legions would have surely found their way somehow, and the Wolves would always be kept on just in case. The only Legions I can see that would really have no place once the Crusade ended are the Night Lords and the World Eaters... but hey, the Wolves can take care of that problem.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Guilliman was already preparing the Ultramarines for life after war as planetary governors and rulers of Ultramar.

Salamanders, Iron Warriors, and Iron Hands could have easily retired as craftsmen and architects, Angel Exterminatus makes it very clear that this is something the Iron Warriors excel in (building things, not just destroying them, and not just bunkers and the like).

If the plan was, as someone suggested, for psykers to become more accepted in society, the Thousand Sons would have been a model for that, perhaps being sent to different planets to train the psyker population there.

The more civilized Legions would have surely found their way somehow, and the Wolves would always be kept on just in case. The only Legions I can see that would really have no place once the Crusade ended are the Night Lords and the World Eaters... but hey, the Wolves can take care of that problem.

Night Legion = Police.
World Eaters = Entertainment.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

Which pesky Xenos?

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

Which pesky Xenos?

Whilst the idea of xeno presence inthe solar systen at that time is unlikely, the solar system still had to be united, due to the warring factions,
Each of the Emperors 'super-human' designs had a specific purpose:
Thunder warriors - shock troops, quickly produced to unite Terra.
Custodes - police, bodyguards. Due to their closeness to the Emperor and the skills required of them they are more labourous to produce.
Primarches - the Emperors generals, symbols of leadership to the population.
Space Marines - the power of the Great Crusade, mass produced in to the military equivelent of an avalanche of super human power.

It is likely that if the Great Crusade was successful, how the space marines were used would change but the Emperor would still have them. It is more likely that initiation would become slower and more selective than during the Great Crusade.

Mind you Blunty, the Imperial Fists were the bodyguards of Empy until after the Horus Heresy. Infact all the Legio Astartes had Custodians supervising them. That for me sounds more like Empy wanted to discard the Astartes because they were imperfect, whereas the Custodes were perfect warriors tougher and more stable than all but the toughest Astartes. Of course it's my interpretation, and I have already explained my vision of Peacehammer 40.000.

Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.

Also Roboute Gulliman's quote from Know No Fear comes to mind.
"Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture."
As shown by the Ultramarines the SM could easily take over as just simple guardians of humanity, ever vigilant and watching over the people of the Imperium, helping where they can. Would really depend on the Legion though, how much involvement would actually happen between the SM and their ruling worlds.

 Lynata wrote:
One of the reasons for why I think he made them sterile - though that detail is not covered in any way anywhere but merely personal opinion and preference, thus not warranting any discussion.

But it sure as hell works as a reason to not make both male and female versions of them with hereditary enhancements instead of the geneseed-implant cycle. Breeding their own would have created a race of superhumans that at some point would come up with the idea that the rest of humanity is useless. Now even the most arrogant marines will still have to keep their pride in check and protect the populations that they recruit from unless they want to go extinct.

That's not how it works though, lol.

Remember though, the geneseed implantation is only part of the process of creating Space Marines. The Space Marines have most of their organs implanted. They don't grow naturally. Having sex with normal women, or even the theoretical female Space Marine wouldn't breed more Space Marines because much of what has happened to them is artificial and wouldn't be passed on genetically through traditional means. Chances are, if Space Marines are sterile, it is because their offspring would be biologically unstable, not because the Imperium is worried about them reproducing in an uncontrolled manner.

Well, I meant the implant process was selected because the Emperor didn't want his supersoldiers to pass on the traits through breeding.

It exposes the darker side of the Emperor yes. After the Great Crusade was complete the Astartes were meant to gradually die out like the Thunder Warriors, with the Imperial Army and Arbites maintaining his empire.

BL fiction has often moved to showing a less-flattering depiction of the Emperor that you get from GW studios. A quote from "The Last Church" sums up this depiction well:

"Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man"

There's also the potential for a kind of 'draw down.'

For example, instead of saying, "1 in 1000 people who complete the initial trials may become a novitiate, 1 in 10000..." That way you end up with a stepped decrease resulting in having a more 'suitable' amount of marines for the next stage of the galaxy, even if it is just putting down the occasional ork infestations or the like.

Even the World Eaters at a suitable size could have had a place in that kind of Imperium. Potentially even Cruze could have been cured.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.

I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.

Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.

Which pesky Xenos?

Horus Heresy Collected Visions – page 12
“The solar System was the first region of space to be conquered by the Emperor and his Space Marine Legions. Alien invaders were flushed from the moons of Saturn and Jupiter and their wretched enslaved human inhabitants repatriated to Earth.”

Its possible that he may have wanted to keep them on forever. Even if every planet had been united space marines abilities to rapidly respond to threats would have made them invaluable to maintain the Empire. Why muster millions of men to deal with a threat that could be dealt with by a SM surgical strike or to deal with new threats emerging like the Nids and Necrons.

I heartily agree, Ivan. The Emperor might not have known the Tyranids were coming but he'd hardly be dumb enough to leave his Imperium unarmed.

 GambleDwarf wrote:
Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.

I am with you on this matter, even if Emperor secured Milky Way he would still had to face Necrons and Tyranids later.
And if he established imperial Webway I have no doubt that he would try to stretch Imperium borders outside Milky Way into other galaxies. It will be eternal war all the way...

I don't think that he would get rid of Astartes, his quote on them shows how much he cares for them - so I highly doubt that he would destroy them like he did Thunder Warriors. I also read a while ago that one of the reason why Astartes from traitor legions rebelled is because they knew what would become of them after Great Crusade - glorified police force. And they didn't want that,

Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.

Well it seems only natural, that the Emperor would want to be protected by his best warriors (and reserve the Custodians for his personal use only.) I mean the guy is the leading figure behind the Great Crusade and the Imperium of man, and thus needs to be protected by the very best of his creations.

btw I also think it is debatable whatever the Custodians are better than the Astartes “in every possible way.”

Maybe he didn't want the Space Marines to be *too good*. We already saw what happened when they got out of control, lol.

As it stands, the Space Marine is still the top tier elite trooper in the galaxy.

So basically Empy developed something better than the Space marines and he had no long term plans for that? Other than to serve as his bodyguards? For me the Custodians seem like the 262 Messerschmidt of WWII. Awesome but impractical at the current situation because of technological difficulties of producing them at the time. Then time moved on, and something even better came along, that's only natural.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
So basically Empy developed something better than the Space marines and he had no long term plans for that? Other than to serve as his bodyguards? For me the Custodians seem like the 262 Messerschmidt of WWII. Awesome but impractical at the current situation because of technological difficulties of producing them at the time. Then time moved on, and something even better came along, that's only natural.

The Custodes didn't always serve as just his bodyguards. He sent them on missions throughout the galaxy during the times of the Great Crusade and the Heresy. It's possible that their creation wasn't applicable for mass production, since we don't know much about their creation in the first place.


I'm pretty sure the Emperor created the Space Marines to unite the Galaxy and then, once the Crusade was over, keep the peace and hold it together. I doubt he was just going to toss the most powerful fighting force the galaxy had ever seen aside. Most of the primarchs were conditioning their men for life after war, so it's implied they would have had their place in Imperial society. What that place was, we'll never know for sure, but I'm sure it was there. We've seen what happens when Space Marines think they're being mistreated by their higher-ups. I'm sure the Emperor would have foreseen a rebellion if he told his most loyal soldiers "Hey guys, I used you, see ya'!" After all, this is exactly the situation that Erebus used to convince Horus to rebel. The whole idea that the Emperor didn't actually care about any of his sons seems a tad fishy to me. After all, if he didn't care about them, why was he so hesitant about killing Horus at the Siege of Terra?

To add, in the HH novels, it is implied there was this kind of overly ambitious outlook that fed throughout the Imperium. I think it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the whole "there is only war" concept. It seemed that most of the Imperium, including the Space Marines, thought that there would be an end to the fighting. There would be galactic peace. They were able to foresee a bright future of peace and prosperity under the Imperial truth. That was never to be, and arguably (as Sigismund seemed to profess to Loken in Horus Rising) never could be.

Well he might have had a place for his sons afterwards, and it wasn't like he gave the Thunder Warriors fair warning. He just struck at them. For me it's sort of an evolution, it's a reason why the military went from musket, to rifled musket, to breachloader, to repeating rifle, to assault rifle, to compact assault rifle. Technological evolution. The HH stopped Empy from completely develop the third generation supermen. The Custodians are proto-types in my view, perfect, but can't be mass-produced like a Space Marine.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Well he might have had a place for his sons afterwards, and it wasn't like he gave the Thunder Warriors fair warning. He just struck at them.

Where's the source for that? I was under the impression that he designed them to die out. I was pretty sure he designed them to die because they were less advanced than the Space Marines and caused the Emperor to fear their stability as a fighting force. It was implied that the Emperor feared that their physical and mental instability would cause them to rebel; a tongue in cheek reference to the Horus Heresy. Most of them died from mental breakdowns, degeneration, and debilitating tumors. The Emperor didn't betray them or "strike out" at them. They were a prototype that the Emperor perfected with the advent of the Space Marines. Their treatment doesn't establish a precedent for how the Emperor would treat the Space Marines.

The Emperor didn't design the Space Marines to die out like he did with the Thunder Warriors. If he was only using them as means to some end, (and nothing beyond that) he would have. He didn't. This implies he had a purpose for them beyond galactic unification. Additionally, if they were just tools, he would have killed Horus on the spot rather than hesitating like a sentimental old father.

It's my suspicion due to reading about the last battle of the Thunder Warriors, but that might just as well be fanfiction. I just thought I read somewhere that they were wiped out just after the War of Unification in one last battle.

 GambleDwarf wrote:
Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.

Also Roboute Gulliman's quote from Know No Fear comes to mind.
"Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture."
As shown by the Ultramarines the SM could easily take over as just simple guardians of humanity, ever vigilant and watching over the people of the Imperium, helping where they can. Would really depend on the Legion though, how much involvement would actually happen between the SM and their ruling worlds.

Ooo boy he was deluded...This is simple question : " Are SM created to serve man, or to rule them ? "...I' dont see indoctrinated killers (even primarchs) as something more than a tools(insert Angron or Russ)...
Also remember how Sang was scared of sanction because of his mutation ? He said that Emp would never hasitate to decapitate his legion if they were a threat to a mankind in any way....

It seems just as likely though that given all the loyalist legions were split up into supposedly 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (obviously GW can't list 1000 as it has to keep reserved a section for new additions and custom chapters), giving a total of 1,000,000 Astartes. Multiplying that by two to include the traitor legions, as they would have a place in the Emperors pre-heresy plans, thats still only 2,000,000 Astartes. Now supposing the galaxy contains trillions of humans, it seems very feasible that the Astartes were destined simply to be peacekeepers - easily produced and easily expendable to police a galaxy that is unfeasible large. Of course, that's just assuming there's peace in THIS galaxy. I'm not sure the Emperor would have ever stopped, or at least I think, using the Imperial Webway, he would have at least ventured into the next galaxy, and in that galaxy he could possibly have found even more Xenos - lets face it, the Tyranids are plainly not from this galaxy. So the Astartes would possibly never stop being used. Sure there's the Custodians - but even the name suggests they are just guards - even if they are more superior to the Astartes.

The Great Crusade forces bears a very similar resemblance to Alexander the Greats army. You have the Companion Custodians, equal to Alexanders Mounted Companions (but actually no genetically different from the standard Custodians), then the standard Custodians equal to Alexanders Hypaspists, then really the Astartes just make up the bulk being equal to the standard Phalangists of Alexanders army. Each of them has a distinct role and justifies it's own inclusion. Even if there was a galactic peace, it's humanities nature to seek conflict, so the Emperor, being the essence of humanity distilled, would simply seek further conquest, using the Astartes as an expendable force.

However, this is simply my opinion, and as a side-note, I'm quite aware that Macharius was modelled on Alexander the Great, not (as far as i'm aware) the Emperor.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It's my suspicion due to reading about the last battle of the Thunder Warriors, but that might just as well be fanfiction. I just thought I read somewhere that they were wiped out just after the War of Unification in one last battle.

Not according the The Outcast Dead and Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal. Those books seem to affirm that they died due to genetic deficiencies that were instituted by the Emperor to make sure they died. So technically he did kill them, but it's not like he turned around and shot them all. He never intended to allow them to live past the unification. If he intended to kill off the Space Marines, they would have had similar genetic deficiencies. Unless the Emperor had some big red button that killed every Space Marine, I think it's safe to say he had at least some intention of allowing them to survive with their own place in the post-Great Crusade Imperium. Not to mention, unless he had said big red button, how exactly (without the genetically bred defects seen in the Thunder Warriors) did he plan to get rid of the Space Marines? He was barely able to deal with half of them even while he was being defended by the other half. If all eighteen rebelled after learning they were just the Emperor's pawns, how was the Emperor going to stop them from wiping out Terra?

The only solution I see is that he was making, as you said, a third generation of super soldiers. However, there's no precedent fluff that even implies he was doing that.

 DarthMarko wrote:


Ooo boy he was deluded...This is simple question : " Are SM created to serve man, or to rule them ? "...I' dont see indoctrinated killers as something more...but that's me....

Which is why the primarchs were teaching their Legions to be more than just killers. They were teaching them to be leaders, teachers, and philosophers so that when all the fighting was over, they could be something more than the killers they were forced to be. Recognize that most Space Marines were only identified as "indoctrinated killers" because that's what they were required to do. Kill and do the dirty work for the Imperium so that the good people didn't have to. That doesn't mean that that was all they were capable of doing. They weren't made to serve or rule men. They were made as fighters that would one day be able to integrate themselves into normal human society. The Salamanders managed to do it just fine with the people of their home planet. Even the Alpha Legion learned to interact with humans on an equal level. Guilliman was a little full of himself, and there was probably some over-embellishment in that specific quote, but there's a bit of truth to what he was saying. I think it was more of an allusion to Space Marines becoming more than soldiers.

^ IOM is absolute - mankind is No.1. In the grimdark of 30k-40k there is only war and SM were created to unite the mankind,so why do you think they have any right to rule them...?
All traitors (except TS) + SW,BA,WS,DA,RG,IH do you consider them and their P as future philosophers ? Poets ?

Rulers, Planetary Governors? Anything else but entertainment? Do people really want them unleashed on society at all?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Rulers, Planetary Governors? Anything else but entertainment? Do people really want them unleashed on society at all?

Or do they have any right ? They aren't even human...
I'm just wondering what feat from SM would make him better then regular dude ? Two brains :-)? Longer lifespan ? Extra giblets ?
O I know, it's because most of them are sympathetic and good towars humans...

Poetry by an Iron Hand:

Metal, metal, so beautiful and shiny you are.

Metal, metal, how shiny and glittering you are.

Metal, metal, how cold to the touch you are.

Metal, metal, how superior to the flesh you are.


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As for your points Marko, I can't really see any good reason for Empy to have the Space Marines except for waging war.

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ IOM is absolute - mankind is No.1. In the grimdark of 30k-40k there is only war and SM were created to unite the mankind,so why do you think they have any right to rule them...?
All traitors (except TS) + SW,BA,WS,DA;RG do you consider them and their P as future philosophers ? Poets ?

You misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I specifically said that the Space Marines weren't meant to rule humanity. Most of the citizens of the Imperium, in the 31st millennium, believed that there would be an end to war. There would no longer be any fighting. The Galaxy would be united in a galactic peace under the light of Imperial truth. When this happened, and only when this happened, the Space Marines would integrate themselves into society. They would interact with humanity as equals. Legions like the Imperial Fists and even the Iron Warriors would become builders and craftsmen. Legions like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines could (not by force) become political leaders and philosophers. The Salamanders and the Alpha Legion both (even in normal 40k canon) were able to integrate themselves with human society on an equal level. I think you greatly underestimate the Space Marines' capability for anything other than war. They aren't rabid dogs built for nothing but fighting. That's just what they had to do in order to unite the galaxy. They were designed to be well-rounded, not single-minded. In a galaxy where there was no war, they could definitely be future philosophers, poets, craftsmen, politicians, and teachers. Now, perhaps the one exception would be the World Eaters and the Space Wolves. Specifically the former. Honestly, I am of the opinion that if the galaxy was united in a peace, the World Eaters probably would have been exterminated since they were essentially indoctrinated to be nothing more than butchers and fighters. Space Wolves would probably have been used the same way they were being used during the Heresy. Subduing any Legions that rebelled. Now, of course, this is all in an ideal situation. This, of course, did not happen because of the Horus Heresy and the reality of the Emperor's vision. However, I believe that this was the original intention the Emperor had. He wanted the Space Marines to become more than just warriors. He wanted them to become leaders in Imperial society not because of some forced political power, but because they were viewed and idolized as pictures of greatness and superiority.

You seem to think that every Space Marine is a World Eater.

P.S.
What does it matter that they aren't human? They're viewed as revered demigods even without having any actual power over humanity. And they aren't viewed as "better" than humans or "more important". Hell, when the Mournival killed a bunch of civilians in False Gods because they were in the way of trying to save Horus' life, they were going to be put to death for murder. They aren't above humans in a pompous, superior sense. They are revered and idolized, which makes them good leaders. Not to mention, from a biological standpoint, they are superior to humans. It's also worth mentioning that they were human. A lot of them still retain large amounts of their humanity. This is seen greatest in Garviel Loken, Tarik Torgaddon, Saul Tarvitz, and Nathaniel Garro.

Well, not all of them are WE - but look at the end result and some legions....Best engineers went beserk on their world, Lorgar reinvented religion (wrong one) and some primarch went emo...
My understanding of the grimdark is that everything is expandable, particularly SM...Also majority of Rob's brothers (even Emperor) would disagree with him...
I do get your opinion - but "fear to tread" changed my opinion when Sanguinius showed how easy they are disposable in Empys eyes....



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 Beaviz81 wrote:
Poetry by an Iron Hand:

Metal, metal, so beautiful and shiny you are.

Metal, metal, how shiny and glittering you are.

Metal, metal, how cold to the touch you are.

Metal, metal, how superior to the flesh you are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for your points Marko, I can't really see any good reason for Empy to have the Space Marines except for waging war.

Lol

SM Haiku :-)

 Darth Bob wrote:

I'm pretty sure the Emperor created the Space Marines to unite the Galaxy and then, once the Crusade was over, keep the peace and hold it together. I doubt he was just going to toss the most powerful fighting force the galaxy had ever seen aside. Most of the primarchs were conditioning their men for life after war, so it's implied they would have had their place in Imperial society. What that place was, we'll never know for sure, but I'm sure it was there. We've seen what happens when Space Marines think they're being mistreated by their higher-ups. I'm sure the Emperor would have foreseen a rebellion if he told his most loyal soldiers "Hey guys, I used you, see ya'!" After all, this is exactly the situation that Erebus used to convince Horus to rebel. The whole idea that the Emperor didn't actually care about any of his sons seems a tad fishy to me. After all, if he didn't care about them, why was he so hesitant about killing Horus at the Siege of Terra?

To add, in the HH novels, it is implied there was this kind of overly ambitious outlook that fed throughout the Imperium. I think it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the whole "there is only war" concept. It seemed that most of the Imperium, including the Space Marines, thought that there would be an end to the fighting. There would be galactic peace. They were able to foresee a bright future of peace and prosperity under the Imperial truth. That was never to be, and arguably (as Sigismund seemed to profess to Loken in Horus Rising) never could be.

You misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I specifically said that the Space Marines weren't meant to rule humanity. Most of the citizens of the Imperium, in the 31st millennium, believed that there would be an end to war. There would no longer be any fighting. The Galaxy would be united in a galactic peace under the light of Imperial truth. When this happened, and only when this happened, the Space Marines would integrate themselves into society. They would interact with humanity as equals. Legions like the Imperial Fists and even the Iron Warriors would become builders and craftsmen. Legions like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines could (not by force) become political leaders and philosophers. The Salamanders and the Alpha Legion both (even in normal 40k canon) were able to integrate themselves with human society on an equal level. I think you greatly underestimate the Space Marines' capability for anything other than war. They aren't rabid dogs built for nothing but fighting. That's just what they had to do in order to unite the galaxy. They were designed to be well-rounded, not single-minded. In a galaxy where there was no war, they could definitely be future philosophers, poets, craftsmen, politicians, and teachers. Now, perhaps the one exception would be the World Eaters and the Space Wolves. Specifically the former. Honestly, I am of the opinion that if the galaxy was united in a peace, the World Eaters probably would have been exterminated since they were essentially indoctrinated to be nothing more than butchers and fighters. Space Wolves would probably have been used the same way they were being used during the Heresy. Subduing any Legions that rebelled. Now, of course, this is all in an ideal situation. This, of course, did not happen because of the Horus Heresy and the reality of the Emperor's vision. However, I believe that this was the original intention the Emperor had. He wanted the Space Marines to become more than just warriors. He wanted them to become leaders in Imperial society not because of some forced political power, but because they were viewed and idolized as pictures of greatness and superiority.

I can totally imagine 18 Space Marines ( one from each Legion ) get together, going from world to world, and doing this after Great Crusade was over:

Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs. We know that the Emperor intended for all 20 of his sons to live and return to Terra by the quarters in the palace from Deliverance Lost. Now imagine how that would go over if he just killed/orchestrated the death and decay of all of their warriors, who many of them view and treat as their children. No, in order to keep the Primarchs you also have to keep the Legions.

As for Astartes as planetary rulers, the precedent was there. It was already happening in Ultramar what with the Triarchs or whatever they were called (talked about in Know No Fear), and I believe in Angel Exterminatus they talked about a planet's population being actively upset when Perturabo and the Iron Warriors left (I may be mixing that up with another Legion in which case it would have been in Shadows of Treachery, just finished that and started Angel Exterminatus recently). Planets that submitted to the Imperial Truth willingly tended to have a lot of respect for the Marines.

With them being reintegrated into society, I feel like they could also then act as a semi-standing militia. They don't need to be at arms and on duty at all times, but when a situation presented itself they would be able to muster and deploy in short order, at least enough time that the Imperial Army can deal with it for a little without being overrun.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

I agree, he may not have given a wet fart about the Astartes, but he certainly cared for the Primarchs. He may have created them in a lab but he still treated them as his sons, albeit he favored some (Horus, Magnus) more than others (Angron, Mortarion).

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

I agree, he may not have given a wet fart about the Astartes, but he certainly cared for the Primarchs. He may have created them in a lab but he still treated them as his sons, albeit he favored some (Horus, Magnus) more than others (Angron, Mortarion).

And the saddest part was that the ones he cared for the most and the greatest among them all were the ones who died or fell: Horus, Magnus, Perturabo, Sanguinius. Especially Sanguinius; IMHO, Sanguinius was basically Emperor 2.0. Even Horus admitted Sanguinius embodied everything the Emperor was while all the other Primarchs were just aspects of the man.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.

1) I believe when (old?) fluff says that Custodes were "prototype" version of Space Marines. And we even do not know were all the Custodes identical in their capabilities, it's very possible that until E's enthronement they were permanent W.I.P. with results gradually integrated in SM gene-seed (even M40s AM dabble with SM gene-seed!).

2) As for being "better at every level"...we know virtually nothing 'bout AC 'cept their fighting provess. SM has a number of improvements which have almost no value in battle, but critical in campaign.

So i think that Custodes begun as Thunder Warriors "guardian pattern" with deficiencies corrected/not added , but w/o new features. Can Custodes survive in vacuum, breathe water , actually digest almost anything, go in suspend animation, or obtain data by ingesting brains of others - we just don't know, but i think they can't as they don't need to.

That's the Thunder Warriors, and the Astartes can hardly be called stable people, they are a gang of manchildren running around with Big Freaking Guns.

That's a pretty simplistic and hilariously erroneous analysis of the Space Marines.

From what we know, they are bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and smarter than the average human being. Their endurance, both physical and mental, is consistently described as extraordinary.

But I imagine this has something to do with irrelevant European soccer hooligans, just like all the other stuff you say that makes no sense.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
That's the Thunder Warriors, and the Astartes can hardly be called stable people, they are a gang of manchildren running around with Big Freaking Guns.

Right. Ultramar is the best place to live in the whole damn galaxy. Other Ultramarine-descended Astartes realms have a similar eminence. That's around three-fifths of all Astartes already. And the Salamanders are artificers and metal-workers beyond peer. Not bad for madmen, wouldn't you say?

EDIT: Prior to the Burning of Prospero, thanks to Magnus and his Thousand Sons, Tizca was one of the greatest cities of Mankind.

Must be swell with the Tyranids coming and the info being 10.000 years old. Yeah MUST be a truly GREAT place.Only a heroic sacrifice from an Emperor battleship prevented the planets from being overrun.

And how does the monastic Space Marines find the place to administer a planet? I can see them being Planetary Governors and other people high-up, but if the whole administration is Space Marines then someone has hilariously misunderstood the purpose of them. I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines. But sure I can go for this hilarious reality instead, the Space marines Legions disbanded mostly into administrators and scribes.

And your point is? None of what you say actually counters the argument that Ultramarine-governed worlds (over 500 for Ultramar alone) are the best places to live.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines.

You're thinking of just the Night Lords. Most Legions usually left planets better than they found them (if they submitted willingly) or at least stable and functional if they resisted. They appointed governors and rulers from the submissive population and the societies grew to accept the Imperium. There was of course some fear of reprisal if they seceded or anything, but it's not like they wouldn't do anything without the threat os the Space Marines looming overhead.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

IMHO exception is only Horus - everybody else - paw...
I aways though Angel boy has a higher rating, but when he was maniacally scared of Emps stick, showed how easy he is disposable....

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I generally took it to be that people didn't dare to feth up with them nearby, so production increased and such in order to not disappoint the Space Marines.

You're thinking of just the Night Lords. Most Legions usually left planets better than they found them (if they submitted willingly) or at least stable and functional if they resisted. They appointed governors and rulers from the submissive population and the societies grew to accept the Imperium. There was of course some fear of reprisal if they seceded or anything, but it's not like they wouldn't do anything without the threat os the Space Marines looming overhead.

If you took it as that, then you are really reading what I'm writing harshly. It's basically a well-known fact that the Space Marines would react if things started to go awry, and that limits corruption and such Most people in the IOM are deadly scared of the Space Marines, so people would be terrified just about the thought of fething up infront of the nicer chapters, nevermind the more ruthless.

I think Space Marines understand administration.
Social interaction leaves a lot to be desired I'd imagine...
They are essentially children when it comes to that...

 purplefood wrote:
I think Space Marines understand administration.
Social interaction leaves a lot to be desired I'd imagine...
They are essentially children when it comes to that...

Some aren't
Wolves have the feasting, and party dancing down.
Salamanders talk well.
Ultramarines still have contact with their families.
Many chapters blend well with social interaction.

Having contact with your family for a Space Marine is less like coming home for x-mas and more like that your family will learn your eventual fate. Like in Army Wives, except they ain't married.

And oratory is a requirement to be an Imperial Fist f.ex. fail your grade at High Gothic and the Emperor take mercy upon you. I can guess something similar happens with the Ultras, but I doesn't really give a rat's ass about them. But that's beside the point as I actually support the notion that many Space Marines regards ordinary humans as just irresponsible children. Robute said so himself (he wanted to give a planet to each of his legionaries), if that ain't hubris, then I don't know what is.

Many chapters have a non-combat tradition of some sort-- wolf feasting, blood angels artwork, etc-- but none of them are really well-rounded enough to be suitable for a life of peace, even ignoring the fact that Marines are built specifically for war.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.

TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.

Then why did the Emperor hesitate in killing Horus? Every bit of fluff points to the fact that he didn't kill Horus because he was a sentimental old sod who didn't want to kill his favorite son.

Lore and Fluff are often one sided. Myself, I think he thought he still had some use for him. He may have played the dear old dad card, but he didn't seem to mind killing his children by the score when it was called for. He was a sociopath and every single thing he did was a step in a plan. People were things to him, things to use and disgaurd when no longer useful.

The primarchs were touched by chaos - some more than others - when they were scattered across the galaxy, and a number of them grew up with less than ideal role models and father figures. That wasn't part of the Emperor's plan, and as a result a number of legions - the World Eaters, the Night Lords, etc - had "issues" that weren't part of the original plan.

The World Eaters may very well have had a place in the post-war Imperium...but the things that Angron went through damaged him, and he, in return, damaged his own legion once he was put in control of them. I doubt that any of that was part of the Emperor's plan.

There may have been a very good plan for the Primarchs and their legions, but once they were scattered across the galaxy, the Emperor was trying his best to make the most of his flawed children.

At that point he was so zoned in one his "grand plan" he simply could not improvise. He thought he could make it work even as it fell apart around him. He was making the most of whatever tools he had in a vain try to make his plan work.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Mind you Blunty, the Imperial Fists were the bodyguards of Empy until after the Horus Heresy. Infact all the Legio Astartes had Custodians supervising them. That for me sounds more like Empy wanted to discard the Astartes because they were imperfect, whereas the Custodes were perfect warriors tougher and more stable than all but the toughest Astartes. Of course it's my interpretation, and I have already explained my vision of Peacehammer 40.000.

It was more of an honourary title given to the IF than their actual job, seeing as they still went on the Crusade.

The Custodes were perfect warriors, not soldiers. That is what has to be remembered, the Space Marines were created to be part of an army, to act as a unified wave, the Custodes were lone fighters skilled in personal combat, that is why they are the bodyguards and the eyes and ears for the Emperor.

Actually they constructed the Imperial Palace Blunty, so the guards of the Emperor was more than a mere title. They were mostly at Terra with Empy constructing the Imperial Palace, or at least Dorn were, while logic tells us that the main force also were there. But the construction of a fortress should be in their alley, despite me thinking actual humans did most of the work there.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Actually they constructed the Imperial Palace Blunty, so the guards of the Emperor was more than a mere title. They were mostly at Terra with Empy constructing the Imperial Palace, or at least Dorn were, while logic tells us that the main force also were there. But the construction of a fortress should be in their alley, despite me thinking actual humans did most of the work there.

Not true at all. They had nothing to do with the Imperial Palace until the Heresy actually began, at which point Dorn and most of the Fists were called back to fortify it and work its defences. During the Crusade they didn't have much of, if any, regular presence on Terra or at the side of the Emperor more than any other legion.

Beaviz, I think you're thinking about this too personally. Most humans think that Astartes are demigods, not xenos infiltrators. They are what every human should aspire to be; perfection in all things.

Plus they aren't manchildren, the writers are. Astartes are super intelligent warrior- diplomats that extend one hand in peace while having the other firmly on their bolter. They were likely intended to serve as stewards of the realms of their Primarchs. Maintaining peace from internal and external threats. That and there's no way the Emperor could have taken down every legion without massive destructive repercussions.

Actually I sort of thought this was all good fun, though I admit my standing in this is controversial with Empy discarding the Space Marines as well as the Thunder Warriors, but I generally adhere to the old adage, you can learn from history, or you can repeat it.

I also sort of assume that the Asartes sure being smarter than the average human only learned skills of military matter, but things can have been different during the Great Crusade. Then the whole setting were different and the IOM brimming with optimism. Anyway, that was actually a good argument Dendelion, which I at least shall take into consideration.

I view the OG IoM as a medieval monarchy. Emperor stands as king and Primarchs are his Counts, Dukes, etc and the Legions are knights beholden to their Primarchs whilst still maintaining comete fealty to the Emperor.

New IoM is a mess though, with Marines being used solely as warriors with no further use.

Yeah, what exactly was the Emperor going to use to destroy his Legions he'd created to be more powerful than anything else in the galaxy?


I think people have gotten too deeply entrenched in these shallow depictions of 40K's characters. Some of it isn't the fault of the writers. Much of 40K was determined about 20 years ago when you could name primarchs after gay British poets, or name them Angryon because they were angry all the time.

This is the main core issue the Horus Heresy faces, which is: This was not a story that was ever supposed to be told in this kind of detail.

The Horus Heresy was invented to explain why the original version of Epic 40K had two armies of Space Marines in the box. So you fought battles between two sides in a civil war. As the idea of the civil war was fleshed out, so were the Chaos Marines and the Traitor Chapters (yes, chapters. Legions came later) invented. As the 40K universe evolved towards 2nd Edition, the Legions were invented. The idea of the Primarchs evolved, and the Chapters became Legions, the Legions became 20 (18). The Chapters became the remnants of the Legions. The background of Rogue trader went away. The civil war setting of Epic Space Marine went from 40K to 30K. Most of its details went away. I can show you a picture from the rulebook of the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines fighting, lol.

But this kind of history was often just a few pages long. Most of these Primarchs existed as nothing more than names for about a decade. Leman Russ was the only one who ever got a model at 40K scale. The four main daemon primarchs (Angryon, Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim) got models at the Epic Scale.



Seriously. Mortarion is a grim reaper looking dude. The primarch who was taken by the Chaos lord of death and decay turned into the classic image of the Grim Reaper. That's how serious this gak was. As in, not at all.

It was just a back story for a miniatures game. Angryon the angry daemon primarch of the Chaos God of being Angry and Violent.
Lionel Johnson of the Dark Angels.
Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands.

Everything happening in this novel series is trying to patch this bs into an actual literary narrative. And obviously, to mixed results, because there's a very good reason why the old back stories were only a few pages long, lol. That's all they have the strength to support. The Emperor seems like he's a dickbag at some points, and an ageless hero at others because all the stuff he ever did was to support a framework ten pages long. Not 20 novels long, lol.

Cliff's notes? Stop trying to make definitive statements about these characters. Their actions don't always make sense and often conflict because they did all of these things 20 years ago when the setting wasn't so serious.

What an irony you are speaking about not taking things so seriously Veteran Sergeant, when you basically think anyone saying anything about the Ultramarines as a guy committing a personal attack on you. But then again I don't give a rat's ass about either them or you. Plus it's Angron, Angryon seems like a really childish way to spell that name.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, what exactly was the Emperor going to use to destroy his Legions he'd created to be more powerful than anything else in the galaxy?

Considering he had the raw psychic might to casually force an entire Legion (Word Bearers) to kneel, and then forced them all entirely to the ground, I think he could manage to take out single Legions if he so desired to.

Not that the Primarchs would just sort of sit there and watch the Emperor kill their sons, lol.

Who said anything was definitive? As far as I can tell most of this discussion is head-canon and everyones trying piece he choppy narrative together.

I still don't think he's powerful enough to take on eighteen full legions + Primarchs, and there is no way they would just sit there and allow themselves to be picked off legion by legion. Nah, there'd have to have been a failsafe implant and as far as we and the Astartes apothecaries know here isn't one. Right?

Off-topic, which 19th century heavyweight boxer is your picture Dandelion?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Off-topic, which 19th century heavyweight boxer is your picture Dandelion?

Mike Conley.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
What an irony you are speaking about not taking things so seriously Veteran Sergeant, when you basically think anyone saying anything about the Ultramarines as a guy committing a personal attack on you.

lolwut? Okay, well that never happens.

Plus it's Angron, Angryon seems like a really childish way to spell that name.

I don't hate the Ultramarines, I merely dislike them and maybe I detest some of their more die-hard fans, but that's not hatred. Plus they are awfully good for puns.

As for me linking them. Well to be frank, the engraved U can at one point spell the doom of them and GW, due to laws, and the Ultramarines (note I'm abstaining just for you from bastardizing them into Ultras). With the laws I fear one day EU can outlaw the use of Ultra at any point, and Ultra being a word commonly linked to something negative, like Marko described how that engraved U showed up everywhere as tagging in his country. And they are both the strength and weakness of GW. At one point they are the major draws for wh40k, but they also carry with them a hefty baggage with that name, something to think about, and there are far more football-fans than fans of wh40k.

As for their general characteristics, they were basically the most flexible chapter, a sort of jack of all trades, a 7/10 in every aspect of everything, but that average thingy meant greatness when it combined over the various battlefields, so sure they can do everything asked of them, but not as good as the specialists.

What's wrong with the Ultramarines? They are the paragon Astartes, like the Luna Wolves should have been.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I don't hate the Ultramarines, I merely dislike them and maybe I detest some of their more die-hard fans, but that's not hatred. Plus they are awfully good for puns.

As for me linking them. Well to be frank, the engraved U can at one point spell the doom of them and GW, due to laws, and the Ultramarines (note I'm abstaining just for you from bastardizing them into Ultras). With the laws I fear one day EU can outlaw the use of Ultra at any point, and Ultra being a word commonly linked to something negative, like Marko described how that engraved U showed up everywhere as tagging in his country. And they are both the strength and weakness of GW. At one point they are the major draws for wh40k, but they also carry with them a hefty baggage with that name, something to think about, and there are far more football-fans than fans of wh40k.

As for their general characteristics, they were basically the most flexible chapter, a sort of jack of all trades, a 7/10 in every aspect of everything, but that average thingy meant greatness when it combined over the various battlefields, so sure they can do everything asked of them, but not as good as the specialists.

Honestly, I've never even heard of the Ultras you're talking about and I'm a soccer fan. I can imagine that a great many 40k players care very little for the shenanigans of a bunch of dickbags in dirty jerseys. I mean, how are they going to change Ultramarine blue? We sell that color at Lowes for Khorne's sake.

Same here, I have never heard of them as well. The color and the Ultra U are in common use for a great many things. Ever the term Ultra is not just limited to 40k or whatever group you are talking about. Its really damned hard to outlaw letters man and the Ultra U is a letter, a Greek one.

 MrDandelion wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I don't hate the Ultramarines, I merely dislike them and maybe I detest some of their more die-hard fans, but that's not hatred. Plus they are awfully good for puns.

As for me linking them. Well to be frank, the engraved U can at one point spell the doom of them and GW, due to laws, and the Ultramarines (note I'm abstaining just for you from bastardizing them into Ultras). With the laws I fear one day EU can outlaw the use of Ultra at any point, and Ultra being a word commonly linked to something negative, like Marko described how that engraved U showed up everywhere as tagging in his country. And they are both the strength and weakness of GW. At one point they are the major draws for wh40k, but they also carry with them a hefty baggage with that name, something to think about, and there are far more football-fans than fans of wh40k.

As for their general characteristics, they were basically the most flexible chapter, a sort of jack of all trades, a 7/10 in every aspect of everything, but that average thingy meant greatness when it combined over the various battlefields, so sure they can do everything asked of them, but not as good as the specialists.

Honestly, I've never even heard of the Ultras you're talking about and I'm a soccer fan. I can imagine that a great many 40k players care very little for the shenanigans of a bunch of dickbags in dirty jerseys. I mean, how are they going to change Ultramarine blue? We sell that color at Lowes for Khorne's sake.

First it's football ( you know kicking ball with your foot ) calling it soccer is well...wussy in our european eyes...
Second "football" is very connected with political stance so it isn't just shenanigans...
Also you don't know jack about extremist iconography in Europe because you live in USA so I'm not too suprised...

For example if one chapter used "swastika" as their symbol, what do you think reaction would be?
In India - great, in America hmmm...
My point is simple - man has every right if he doesn't like something which reminds him on gak...simple

Like I said - 40k is a game with plasitc soldiers, but some things are just poking your eyes...I do understand if somebody has abjection or doesn't like some things which reminds him on something bad...

It sounds like the dumbest gak I've ever heard, personally.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I have a lot of problems with that scene, but I don't think he forced the entire legion to kneel. He just forced Lorgar to kneel, and the legion imitated the behavior.

If he could neutralize entire Legions with his mind, it would have made the Battle of Terra a cakewalk. "Sir, World Eaters at the walls!" "Don't worry. I got this."

Or, we've just discovered another proof to my pudding that this was never a story that was supposed to be told in this kind of detail, lol.

Nah, Lorgar kneeled after his legion did, and the Emperor forced them to do so.



He could neutralize Legions with his mind, sure. A Primarch? Not so easily. Regardless, he was sort of busy, you know, keeping the infinite armies of Chaos from flooding the materium through the gaping hole Magnus tore in the Webway. Also, there were at least three very powerful psykers on the side of the traitors as well, Lorgar, Magnus, and a Chaos-pumped Horus.

And yeah, of course the Heresy lulzily contradicts itself. Kor Phaeron still somehow being alive, when he has been in the presence of both the Emperor and Magnus the Red, is a mystery for the ages.

IIRC in Know No Fear that Guilliman states that once the Great Crusade is over his Warriors would become Governors of the worlds they've conquered.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
He definitely had plans for Magnus -- he wanted to put him on the Golden Throne ... and I don't mean, make him the new Emperor.

The corpse on the golden throne was the Emperor in the current timeline. Chaos just showed it to Magnus with the wrong caption under it. Surprise Daemons lie.

The Primarchs were not going to get tossed after the Great Crusade. The legions maybe... Probably.

However the Primarch had estates built inside the Imperial Palace for after the Crusade. As seen in Deliverance Lost. The important thing to note is that there are 20 of them not 18 (2 gone) and not 9 (9 went to Chaos). Which shows that the Big E had a place in his home for his sons.

Um, Magnus saw a vision of himself on the throne in the Emperor's own mind. Those estates were probably built before the Primarch capsules were even lost. I'm sure he intended to raise and educate them himself, so he could have 20 Guillimans, rather than just one.

Yet, golden throne "living battery" doesn't seem to be "caring father thingy" for one of his gifted sons...

Hahahaha, I can remember the laugh-riot I had over that theory.

1. First I will feed you the warp and make you an addict.
2. You will disappoint me and I will have to punish you.
3. When I'm done punishing you, and your brain is fried I will use you as a living battery.

Freely quoted from DarthMarko in an earlier thread. Damn that paints Empy in a disturbing light.

^ LOL But that's @Manchu's theory IIRC -we just quoted him...

That deamon in "TS" teases Magnus about that...

It seems from reading the replies and reflecting on what we know - yes the whole in depth black library thing was never intentional and is trying to plug the gaps as it goes. eg Lion el johnson no longer being a traitor (much to my chagrin, because that was a cool twist).

But from what we know, IMHO once the emperor saw that the chaos gods were onto his plans eg stealing the primarchs infront of him. He was forced to do something he didnt want to do eg make the space marine legions to find the sons.

I think the Grey Knights were what the space marines were meant to be in the emperors original plan, albeit lead by the primarchs. That way he would avoid the primarchs being more loyal to their sons than to their father. Additionally if the grey knights were from the emperors genetic material then they would ahve no link to the primarchs, but to the emperor as father. Making loyalty more assured.

The emperor knew the instant the the primarchs were taken that the heresy was going to occur, he just didn't know which ones would rebel and which would remain loyal. The wolves I think were his solution to this problem.

Additionally, the emperor wanted to primarchs to live, but didnt care about their legions. How to seperate the primarchs from their legions - dont know how to solve that one though. But from the BS it is clear that the primarchs knew of and some had witnessed the destruction of the other two primarchs and their legions by the emperor and Leman Russ.

IMHO the emperor never wanted the SM, he wanted the grey knights, and for them to be lead by the primarchs. Given Chaos intervention, he was forced to make SM and the SW in particular.

Following the Heresy though or the end of the great crusade... The surviving legions... those that were suitable eg ultramarine and salamanders could be planetary governors (imperial fists were too fundamentalist to think the crusade would ever end, but also probably more realistic). Those that were not suitable eg World eaters could be used against the aliens eg orks until there were no orks left.

Or perhaps the emperor didnt really try hard as some have said and nature would take its course... or He would throw the legions against what is basically half a galaxy full of orks until they were all dead and the primarchs were forced to use grey knights?

Once the heresy occured the Grey knights function was modified to fight pure chaos?

DarthMarko wrote:First it's football ( you know kicking ball with your foot ) calling it soccer is well...wussy in our european eyes...

Sorry, the US makes the rules these days. Part of the agreement of having to get involved in all the petty little world wars and border skirmishes you Yurps kept getting into. American is the international language of business. We writes the language, we writes the words.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
We writes the language, we writes the words.

So true. We learn American English here in the Philippines (or at least at Mapua ). Go Uncle Sam! Now would you mind busting heads in China?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:First it's football ( you know kicking ball with your foot ) calling it soccer is well...wussy in our european eyes...

Sorry, the US makes the rules these days. Part of the agreement of having to get involved in all the petty little world wars and border skirmishes you Yurps kept getting into. American is the international language of business. We writes the language, we writes the words.

Please tell us more big and strong America. We humble peasants are in need of your guidance.

High horse

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Hahahaha, I can remember the laugh-riot I had over that theory.

1. First I will feed you the warp and make you an addict.
2. You will disappoint me and I will have to punish you.
3. When I'm done punishing you, and your brain is fried I will use you as a living battery.

It's pretty much why the Emperor gave the Thousand Sons unstable Gene-seed in the first place. The Emperor knew Magnus would leave his Sons willingly so had to give him a shove, no Legion, no purpose other than to help out his father

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:First it's football ( you know kicking ball with your foot ) calling it soccer is well...wussy in our european eyes...

Sorry, the US makes the rules these days. Part of the agreement of having to get involved in all the petty little world wars and border skirmishes you Yurps kept getting into. American is the international language of business. We writes the language, we writes the words.

Please tell us more big and strong America. We humble peasants are in need of your guidance.

High horse

Hey, I'm not taking anything away from English, but all the modern contributions to the lexicon are American in origin. The Brits had a good run, though. They'll always have Shakespeare.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:First it's football ( you know kicking ball with your foot ) calling it soccer is well...wussy in our european eyes...

Sorry, the US makes the rules these days. Part of the agreement of having to get involved in all the petty little world wars and border skirmishes you Yurps kept getting into. American is the international language of business. We writes the language, we writes the words.

Please tell us more big and strong America. We humble peasants are in need of your guidance.

High horse

Hey, I'm not taking anything away from English, but all the modern contributions to the lexicon are American in origin. The Brits had a good run, though. They'll always have Shakespeare.

Hey now I’m not from Britain, so no hurt feelings. I was just trying to add a little to the humor and yes, Shakespeare is fraking awesome.

I'm just goofing around anyway.