- Dark Angels always have some High Lord of Terra to cover for them, there is reference for that in Hrud Rising in M35 ( where Dark Angels abandon the campaign to hunt the fallen and after that Ultramarines file a complain to High Lords of Terra. No action was every taken to investigate this even if complain was filed by Ultramaires themselves ) and in founding of The Disciples of Caliban ( everybody found it very strange but High Lords approved it nevertheless, this is the basic assumption that they have leverage as that was mentioned in text ).

-Interrogator Chaplains travel to planet Malmar, witch is close to the Eye of Terror, to recover the black pearls and to put it on their Reclusiam when they made the Fallen repent. This is very hard to achieve as the most pearls that single Chaplain ever obtained was 10.

-There are Fallen who actually feel guilty for what they have done and they decided to hind among the Human population and redeem themselves by helping out others. This is a little stupid to me because everybody can recognize 8 feet tall giant that is wide as two or three Humans. It's not surprising they found one very quickly among the ordinary population.

-Dark Angels now have ten statues witch are in fact very powerful shield generations , able to project field that can repel even Lascannon shots from vehicles inside it.

-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

I don't think that they are going to finish the story, but they are going to move it forward. Maybe a new global campaign, maybe the primarchs come back, or maybe it will just stay here. There are many possibilities of what could happen but I don't think a radical change in the story will happen because GW needs to make some money.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:There are Fallen who actually feel guilty for what they have done and they decided to hind among the Human population and redeem themselves by helping out others. This is a little stupid to me because everybody can recognize 8 feet tall giant that is wide as two or three Humans.

When we keep in mind that there are Ogryns as a tolerated near-human subspecies, it is, or so I think, actually not that difficult to consider an ex-Astartes hiding out amongst the population. Mutations take many forms, and body size is one of them. Not to mention worlds where the people naturally grow so bulky (Catachans) that a former Space Marine could pass simply as "a bit bigger than the rest". Seriously, google what an incredible range in body height/mass we have in our real world, you'd be surprised!

I for one consider it possible that a "naked" Marine could simply slip into well-concealing robes and hide amongst, for example, the people in some underhive. Living conditions are so gakky down there that I don't think many will be concerned with the body size of some good samaritan. People just have other priorities, not to mention that this is also where a whole lot of "other" mutants will be found. I mean, just look at the Scavvie gangs in Necromunda, specifically the Scalies (a stable reptilian form of human mutation) who are said to be "almost as broad as they are tall".
It really depends on the world/culture in question, though, and I would expect the majority of ex-DA's to be found out sooner or later because few of them will be able to adapt to their new home fast and well enough to avoid calling the attention of various Imperial authorities down on him before expiring. Regardless of the Imperium's general dismissive stance towards the dregs of society, its feelers extend into every level.

On a sidenote, Space Marines are still "just" ~7 feet in GW's world. I know the 8 seems to be more popular lately, but it hasn't found its way into studio material yet.

Thank you for listing some of the book's fluff, though! Most of it was new for me, though I vaguely recall having seen bits and pieces in older material. GW has a habit of occasionally reprinting things, and in 6E in particular I noticed a lot of old stuff resurface again word for word.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

This one bothers me a bit as it seems to be a trend for every time a new piece of equipment is added to a marine codex. The Grey Knights had a similar explanation for much of their gear. I'm not saying every marine dex should have access to them but I'd rather it be that the AM wished no one had access to these particular STCs but had to provide them to the Dark Angels to pay off some ancient debt, under the conditions that they are not shared beyond The Unforgiven (Not that the Dark Angels would do that anyway).

 Lynata wrote:
I for one consider it possible that a "naked" Marine could simply slip into well-concealing robes and hide amongst, for example, the people in some underhive. Living conditions are so gakky down there that I don't think many will be concerned with the body size of some good samaritan. People just have other priorities, not to mention that this is also where a whole lot of "other" mutants will be found. I mean, just look at the Scavvie gangs in Necromunda, specifically the Scalies (a stable reptilian form of human mutation) who are said to be "almost as broad as they are tall".

Completely agree. A space marine in a hood could easily pass for an ogryn, a large servitor, or any other large mutant. Hell I'm sure half the gangs on Necromunda have at least one 7 foot tall guy hopped up on steroids that, at least visually, a space marine could pass for.

jareddm wrote:This one bothers me a bit as it seems to be a trend for every time a new piece of equipment is added to a marine codex. The Grey Knights had a similar explanation for much of their gear. I'm not saying every marine dex should have access to them but I'd rather it be that the AM wished no one had access to these particular STCs but had to provide them to the Dark Angels to pay off some ancient debt, under the conditions that they are not shared beyond The Unforgiven (Not that the Dark Angels would do that anyway).

It does seem a bit weird, in that I too would not have considered the Astartes to be that independent from the AdMech. I mean, just reproducing the "common" patterns, sure. But whipping up something entirely new? I would imagine even the Mechanicus taking a lot of time and resources to make use of a recovered STC, most of whom are damaged to a point where complete recovery just isn't possible and you have to fill in the rest with your own creativity.

On the other hand it certainly fits with the idea that the Marines are sort of preserving the Imperium as imagined by the Emperor, at least in some fashion, with some Astartes "enclaves" not only being socially superior but sporting a greater understanding of technology as well. Not what I would have liked to see, but I can't shake off the suspicion.

As for exclusive AdMech deals, indeed it would have been a viable alternative - we know they're doing such contracts because it was referenced in the Immolator background.

jareddm wrote:Hell I'm sure half the gangs on Necromunda have at least one 7 foot tall guy hopped up on steroids that, at least visually, a space marine could pass for.

Maybe those are the guys who get to carry the heavy bolters.

[edit] Hey, turns out GW even sells what I assume to be a Scaly! Second guy from the top left?

Also, remember many of the Fallen were once Knights of Caliban. They were actually too old to become space marines, so they were just given additional implants and surgery to at least be able to function as an Astartes, but they were still just heavily augmented humans. So they could indeed pass as a regular human amoung a normal population.

It does seem a bit weird, in that I too would not have considered the Astartes to be that independent from the AdMech. I mean, just reproducing the "common" patterns, sure. But whipping up something entirely new? I would imagine even the Mechanicus taking a lot of time and resources to make use of a recovered STC, most of whom are damaged to a point where complete recovery just isn't possible and you have to fill in the rest with your own creativity.

On the other hand it certainly fits with the idea that the Marines are sort of preserving the Imperium as imagined by the Emperor, at least in some fashion, with some Astartes "enclaves" not only being socially superior but sporting a greater understanding of technology as well. Not what I would have liked to see, but I can't shake off the suspicion.

As for exclusive AdMech deals, indeed it would have been a viable alternative - we know they're doing such contracts because it was referenced in the Immolator background.

Actually, of the Astartes, the Dark Angels is the most secretive and has their own forges within The rock, keeping tech hidden to themselves is something they'd very likely do. They've always been superior in tech to most Space Marines (Which is why everyone gave them the associative "plasma plasma plasma" having old tech and the like)

Space Marine Chapters are often self-sufficient, having their own shipbased manufacturing capabilities. It is in the best interest of their purpose to be independent of any ties that make them dependent on anyone else.

You wouldn't want the Ad Mech to have complete control over all the chapters.

Honestly I like the new angle of certain Space Marine chapters hoarding STC's they've discovered to themselves, much to the chagrin of Mars.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

Sounds like a massive change in direction as the Lion waking up and turning the tide would make the corpse that is the IOM resurrect. Maybe in a fanfiction-universe that can happen, but not this as I like the actual hopelessness of wh40k.

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine Chapters are often self-sufficient, having their own shipbased manufacturing capabilities. It is in the best interest of their purpose to be independent of any ties that make them dependent on anyone else.

I know that - it's why I specifically referred to coming up with entirely new stuff rather than producing "licensed copies". In essence, I would not have thought that a Chapter's Tech-Marines would be that good, given the focus of their training. I don't quite see how they would have acquired the know-how.

For what it's worth, the Astartes are still dependent on the AdMech for training new Tech-Marines and the High Lords for the gene-seed, anyways. Although the former could be overcome by in-house training, I guess.
In the end, the Chaos Warbands are a good example in showing us how Space Marines can keep operating even after cutting off all ties - perhaps with reduced efficiency, but more freedoms in other areas.

Grey Templar wrote:Also, remember many of the Fallen were once Knights of Caliban. They were actually too old to become space marines, so they were just given additional implants and surgery to at least be able to function as an Astartes, but they were still just heavily augmented humans. So they could indeed pass as a regular human amoung a normal population.

Huh, I didn't think of that - good point!

Beaviz81 wrote:Sounds like a massive change in direction as the Lion waking up and turning the tide would make the corpse that is the IOM resurrect. Maybe in a fanfiction-universe that can happen, but not this as I like the actual hopelessness of wh40k.

I don't see a change quite yet - Jonson being alive is one of the bits I know from old books. Or was the comment in response to Galdos? In that case I'd agree, not to mention that I would doubt that a single Primarch could have such an effect. It's not like Angron was such a beast lately... compared to the mythos, anyways.

By the way ... did the new DA 'dex use this wording, by any chance?
"Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside the secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."
That's taken from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death ... GW has been digging up a lot of old material lately; entire pages of the fluff in the 6E rulebook have been ripped straight out of the Codex Imperialis.

It was in response to Galdos. And Lion was against the IOM of Robute so he would try some reforms I doubt the Ultramarines would like.

Angron seems to come rolling just to be banished, but humiliating for a Primarch is Magnus. He basically is a living bullseye for Ragnar to throw a spear into. Mortarion got licked quite good as well.

I think it would be great if the IOM could get a primarch. It would make for good stories.

Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Dont forget about Luther. He is mentioned briefly in the codex and also in the new Ravenwing book by Gav Thorpe. Azraels sword is the only key to his cell (hence Sword of Secrets). Luther is in a cell, almost as deep in the Rock as the Lion. He is mad, but alive. He rants and raves that soon the Lion will awake and forgive him. Luther is how the DA know much of what they do about the Fallen.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:


-Probably the most interesting one: Dar kAngels are hiding a LOT of STC's for themselves. The Nephilim, the Talon and rumored that they even have Jetbike STC ( giving the number of times the JEtbike was lost and every time a new one appeared ).

I wish they shared that last one. Astartes-piloted Jetbikes for all Chapters should give the pointy-ears some food for thought to say the least.

Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle...Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes.

The Dark Angels are still unofficially Legiones Astartes as opposed to Adeptus Astartes, as all their Successor Chapters aren't treated as independent entities by the Dark Angels but as extensions of their order.

Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

I dont know of any. By way of models though, Scibor Miniatures has several that would work great for Primarchs (coincidence? hmmmm). There are great models for Sanguinius, Guilliman, Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ.

On the fallen 'hiding in plain sight' - One of the wolves books actually has a member of the fallen as a villain.



Sons of Fenris - Lee Lightner
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/sons-of-fenris-ebook.html

The Lion coming back would be sweet, I always though it was stupid that half the surviving loyalist primarchs just decided to go run and hide in a corner

Interesting to see that the Imperium might be getting a Primarch helping them out in the "present;" whether this gets taken any further by GW is another matter. If so, I wonder if there would be measures to bring in the rules for Primarchs from the FW books (assuming they are going to eventually receive TT profiles)? Failing that, it'd be good if BL was used as the means to carry the storyline on into M42 in a big way.

Time to speculate wildly - if the Lion returns he could even end up setting up a kind of second Ultramar with his Chapter and if he doesn't approve of what's been done with the Imperium, they could attempt to split from it altogether. After all, if entire planets and IG regiments can be corrupted by Chaos, I don't see any reason to think that a Loyalist Primarch would have trouble picking up followers. Of course there would also be plenty who accused him of being an imposter - it could even lead to civil war if handled badly...

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

MunGo_0600 wrote:

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

I love the idea of the Primarchs returning, even if it is just one. That's exactly what the setting needs to shake things up and keep it from stagnating.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

MunGo_0600 wrote:

2013/01/21 08:47:00 Subject: Re:New and interesting things I noticed in Dark Angels fluff.
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

I love the idea of the Primarchs returning, even if it is just one. That's exactly what the setting needs to shake things up and keep it from stagnating.

Primarchs suck and, as the dominant faction within the setting, the imperium already has enough "help". If they want to shake up the setting then expanding on the Night of a Thousand rebellions
might be a much more interesting scenario then yet another, geographicaly limited Black Crusade or the return of one of the lost Marty Stues.

Depends on the Primarch. Russ and Guilliman most definitely do not suck. The enemies of man beware if Russ comes back first and becomes Lord Commander of the Imperium.

MunGo_0600 wrote:Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Do you happen to recall the Codex name or WD issue number?
Might be something to add to my list of resources. :3

MandalorynOranj wrote:Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

wat

Fezman wrote:Interesting to see that the Imperium might be getting a Primarch helping them out in the "present;" whether this gets taken any further by GW is another matter.

The setting is "stuck" at 999.M41 since about 25 years. GW has been adding details (perhaps too many), but has been fairly adamant about refraining from any progress past the "5 minutes before midnight" theme.
The only new thing (at least to me - maybe I just missed an earlier source) would be the Rock actually being mobile and moving (through the Warp?!) towards the Gateway sector. Even if it ever gets there, Jonson will still be stuck in stasis, although I'd certainly see an option for some sort of event triggering his release. Hypothetically speaking.

 Lynata wrote:

The only new thing (at least to me - maybe I just missed an earlier source) would be the Rock actually being mobile and moving (through the Warp?!) towards the Gateway sector.

They could have configured the Rock to Ramilies-class standards.

Even if it ever gets there, Jonson will still be stuck in stasis, although I'd certainly see an option for some sort of event triggering his release. Hypothetically speaking.

If he does wake up, Abaddon's in for a good old-fashioned butt kicking

It would be cool if they brought one of the daemon primarchs into the fold too, possibly Perturabo so he and the Lion could have at it over him tricking the lion into the giant siege guns during the heresy

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

 Lynata wrote:

MunGo_0600 wrote:Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Do you happen to recall the Codex name or WD issue number?
Might be something to add to my list of resources. :3

MandalorynOranj wrote:Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

wat

You're a bit out of the loop, it seems.

Forge World is tackling the Horus Heresy. HH1: Betrayal came out last year, and covered the Isstvaan III incident. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim were given stats. FW has also said that they'll be doing stats and a model for the Emperor, eventually.

HH2 and 3 will cover the drop site massacre. No other books have been announced, yet.

They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.

 nolzur wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

*cough* good luck to them.
Let us not forget he would probably kill all the assassins sent after him. He was also very paranoid.

Indeed, the return of a Primarch would instigate change whether the imperium wanted it or not. The AdMech and High Lords would be mad, the Ecclesiarchy, too. But the loyalist marine chapters, I think they'd be more inclined to listen to what a Primarch has to say. That would force change on its' own, but any direct attack on Lion could split the Imperium in half, and they'd know that, so I doubt it would come to civil war.

 Galdos wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

This bit of fluff has been around for a long time. Just not as publically displayed.

Meh, I was hoping for GW stats, actually - like Angron's here. I have a feeling FW will try to stick close to the novels. :/

 Grey Templar wrote:


This bit of fluff has been around for a long time. Just not as publically displayed.

It's been in every Codex Dark Angels and Codex Angels of Death. Can't get much more public than that.

It's just that dumbasses on the internet like to ignore things. For example, you can probably find 20 threads in this very forum wondering what the secret of the Dark Angels is, when every single codex states clearly about the Fallen.

 Lynata wrote:

By the way ... did the new DA 'dex use this wording, by any chance?
"Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside the secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."
That's taken from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death ... GW has been digging up a lot of old material lately; entire pages of the fluff in the 6E rulebook have been ripped straight out of the Codex Imperialis.

Extended and accented:

Buried yet deeper within the Rock, hidden in its innermost chamber,
is the final, greatest secret of the Dark Angels.
Only one person in the galaxy knows the full truth - the Emperor.
Even in his living entombment upon the Golden Throne, even though
the sunken orbits of his skull no longer have eyes, the Emperor still
sees much. Hidden inside a secluded chamber at the heart of what
was once the planet of Caliban, unreachable by all save the cryptic
Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies
sleeping. There he slumbers, his wounds long-healed, waiting for that
time when he will be needed once again, when the clarion call of battle
sounds for the last time, summoning him to once again defend the
Imperium of Mankind against its enemies.

Hmmh, I see! So, still sleeping, but they clarified he's fully healed now. Kind of sounds like he may just have been accidentally (or intentionally?) forgotten there...

... or perhaps that his Chapter's leaders don't dare to wake him up, simultaneously risking to lose him forever if he gets killed in some random battle. By this time, something like a Primarch may appear to some like a trump card you're supposed to play only once, and only when you really need it, hence the bit about a hypothetical "last battle".

Or am I reading too much into this?

Anyways, thanks for the full quote!

If the Lion was to awaken and be given rules, it would probally mean that every army is going to get some super awsome guy to rally them. Im not against that one bit as id like to see some of these. Fluff wise The Lion awakening would cause a resurgence in the strength of the IoM possibly. It could also split it in two. Furthermore I wouldnt be surprised if all the succesor chapters and the DA were reforged into a single legion by the Lion. If he does come back for this "final battle" and it means the end times have begun. Then we may also see Vulkan and Leman Russ. As well as many of the Chaos Primarchs. Question is who would come into play for people like the Eldar and Tau to keep the feel of 40K.

The Tau already have their primarch equivalent.

His name is La'Kais.

Oh god, no, do not bring primarchs back! People can play them in Horus Heresy, if they absolutely have to.

 nolzur wrote:



I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed be.

You understand how crazy this sounds dont you?


The Imperium heres that one of the greatest beings ever to walk the planet has returned, one of the God-Emperor's sons has returned to defend the Imperium. Than the news comes out that the son has been killed (pretending they did it in secret perfectly) Ya the Imperium is going to collapse on itself at this crazy 180.

However lets face it, this is a Primarch, the last thing the High Lords want is for a rumor to get out that they tried to kill a Primarch.

 Galdos wrote:

However lets face it, this is a Primarch, the last thing the High Lords want is for a rumor to get out that they tried to kill a Primarch.

No, last thing the High Lords want is a Primarch to usurp their power.

 nolzur wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Lion ain't stupid though. I doubt he'd do anything so crazy as put a stop on Emperor-worship that'd probably cause the Imperium to crumble from the inside (as much as I wish someone would do that). Not to mention, they did venerate Machine Spirits back in the day too. Only the focus was more on understanding and reclamation rather than rote memorization.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

 Crimson wrote:



No, last thing the High Lords want is a Primarch to usurp their power.

Who said anything about usurpation? The Lord Commander of the Imperium is a member of the Council of the High Lords of Terra, the last one to hold said position being Roboutte Guilliman.

Well, they would have to invite him. There is no such thing as a "Lord Commander of the Imperium" as a permanent seat on the Senatorum, so it really comes down to how much the High Lords are able to play ball - aka if they'd feel duty-bound to seek aid and surrender bits of their influence, or if they'd go all "nnnoooooo it's miiiinnnneeee!"

Without knowing the current High Lords better, I cannot say what situation I'd predict, but both scenarios are possible, imho.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, they would have to invite him. There is no such thing as a "Lord Commander of the Imperium" as a permanent seat on the Senatorum, so it really comes down to how much the High Lords are able to play ball - aka if they'd feel duty-bound to seek aid and surrender bits of their influence, or if they'd go all "nnnoooooo it's miiiinnnneeee!"

Without knowing the current High Lords better, I cannot say what situation I'd predict, but both scenarios are possible, imho.

Knowing Lion and his code of chivalry as a knight, he would never claim a seat on the council himself, and I'm reasonably certain such an act of humility would probably convince the High Lords to issue an invitation. And considering that the Captain-General of the Custodes is also a High Lord himself, the Emperor (through the Captain-General) might just nudge the council to make such a move. Though I am certain Lion would claim (and would get) overall command over the defense of Cadia and the surrounding sectors against Abaddon the Despoiler's 13th Black Crusade.

The Lion has been sitting in the Rock waiting for the final battle since the original version of this fluff (and really, the entire fluff section is a direct copy&paste of the Angels of Death fluff).

 Omegus wrote:
The Lion has been sitting in the Rock waiting for the final battle since the original version of this fluff (and really, the entire fluff section is a direct copy&paste of the Angels of Death fluff).

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

Right, like the Inqusition isn't maintaining the status quo of the Emperor to prevent the power schism his return would create.

So, usurper vs hlot?
I'm just wondering how many chapter's would go with Lion and how many with old gits....

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

Right, like the Inqusition isn't maintaining the status quo of the Emperor to prevent the power schism his return would create.

So just let the Imperium crumble away? Fine by me; last stands are stupid, but if the Emperor dies and the Imperium falls apart because those idiotic bureaucrats assassinated the loyal Primarchs to maintain a self-destructive status quo, I might as well turn my fleets' guns on the nearest Administratum/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition stronghold before heading to Ultramar; at least the Ultramarines and Astartes in general know how to do things right. If we're going out in a blaze of glory, I'm not doing it fighting alongside some fat, greedy, and probably inbred and stupid nobleman or bureaucrat.

 DarthMarko wrote:
So, usurper vs hlot?
I'm just wondering how many chapter's would go with Lion and how many with old gits....

Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and White Scars Legiones Astartes (where Space Wolves go, White Scars will follow) for starters. The Ultramarines would follow once Lion's identity is confirmed. And once the Ultramarines move, the remaining Legiones Astartes will follow. If the Dark Angels turn the tide at Cadia, the Imperial forces there will side with the Legiones Astartes as well. The Grey Knights might side with the Inquisition and those damned bureaucrats, but Thousand Son-wannabes will fare even worse against the Rout.

UM are the biggest question....
Or:
-Lion awakes
-sees the IoM
-returns to stasis (on his own accord)

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes. But I believe they will: those damned bureaucrats are greedy and honorless scum, and once the Ultramarines show signs of hesitating or trying to be impartial, they'll try to force them to side with the council by some sort of underhanded tactic or strategy. Ultramarines hold honor and duty to the Emperor above everything else; the council will just end up pushing the XIII Legion against them. Once the XIII Legion is committed, all the Legiones Astartes will be as well, and with the Ultramarines will come all of Ultima Segmentum (to the people there, Ultramar is a much greater source of hope and security than distant Terra and the council).

Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

Assuming they don't get to Terra first. Basic strategy is always to crush the enemy leadership first. Once the old council is dead, and Lion (or any other Primarch) has taken control of the new one (no one can replace the Emperor), the second inter-legionary conflict will be over. The Age of the High Lords will be over as well, and finally, the Imperium will change for the better.

As for numbers, Ultima Segmentum is de facto under the authority of the Ultramarines; Ultramar has basically more authority by sheer proximity and military influence than distant Ancient Terra. And Ultima Segmentum is the largest segmentum of them all, and is logically the most vital resource and manpower source for the Imperium. With the Legiones Astartes controlling it, the council loses the advantage of numbers.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

Some of us really do not want GW to move the story anywhere, especially to any direction that involves Primarchs. I prefer Imperium to be crumbling, its glory days well past it, its leaders corrupt and paranoid and Primarchs being just distant legends.

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

Some of us really do not want GW to move the story anywhere, especially to any direction that involves Primarchs. I prefer Imperium to be crumbling, its glory days well past it, its leaders corrupt and paranoid and Primarchs being just distant legends.

Some of us want it to move forward though; don't get me wrong, I like BFG, but I like the idea of starting over/rebuilding even better.

 Galdos wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

The Lion's presence within the Rock has been canon since Codex:Angels of Death back in 2nd edition.

I sort of like the idea of him coming back, taking control of all Imperial forces at Cadia and then getting killed by Fabius Bile to be used in experimentation

Guys, him being in a rock has been canon sense 2nd edition.


The Rock MOVING TOWARDS CADIA WITH A PRIMARCH READY TO FIGHT is new.


We are commenting on that part.





Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

 Galdos wrote:
Guys, him being in a rock has been canon sense 2nd edition.


The Rock MOVING TOWARDS CADIA WITH A PRIMARCH READY TO FIGHT is new.


We are commenting on that part.





Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

People see the harsh measures implemented by the Inquisition and believe that they hate humanity and hope etc.....but such thoughts belong solely in small minds and we are not accountable to such as they

 Galdos wrote:

Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

I don't know either. That's what I was originally arguing, but people kept saying they would just kill him because he would be a threat to the status quo and would rather let the Imperium crumble away rather than accept the hope he would represent for the future. Hence, I switched my arguments to the resulting fighting between the council and its forces against the Legiones Astartes, their Primarch(s) and associated forces.

Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Look at how that turned out; Ultramar is the heart of the Ultima Segmentum with arguably more authority over that region than distant Ancient Terra. It is also the best place to live in the galaxy; generally speaking, Astartes realms are. In contrast, realms under the rule of either Mars and Terra are second-rate to say the least compared to Astartes realms. Guilliman wasn't infallible, he even admitted it in Rules of Engagement.

Meh, if the Lion comes back, the we want the Ork equivalent Gork & Mork!

Would be interesting if they did an "Armageddon" and had a massive campaign to decide the fate of Cadia.

I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Then they would just let the Imperium crumble away? Are they that stupid? They may not be paragons, but they are definitely pragmatic. And there's still the Captain-General of the Custodes, who is also a High Lord at times, and may arguably be delivering missives from the Emperor. If the Emperor says Lion or a loyal Primarch takes charge, are they gonna argue? Of course not; the Custodes would summarily execute them for treason.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Look at how that turned out; Ultramar is the heart of the Ultima Segmentum with arguably more authority over that region than distant Ancient Terra. It is also the best place to live in the galaxy; generally speaking, Astartes realms are. In contrast, realms under the rule of either Mars and Terra are second-rate to say the least compared to Astartes realms. Guilliman wasn't infallible, he even admitted it in Rules of Engagement.

Astartes realms are largely feudal or savage worlds where stoneage barbarians brain each other. Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over. The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

 KingDeath wrote:
Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over.

Not according to the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines, which describe Astartes realms as beacons of hope and civilization.

The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

Retconned by the Horus Heresy novels. Not sure which one (I think it was the one involving the Battle of Calth), but Guilliman swore an oath to punish Lorgar by the five hundred worlds of the Realm of Ultramar.

The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about. In some ways, the Primarchs were the Emperor's gravest error.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap. Many Astartes hold the view that they are far superior to regular humans, and that individual lives are insignificant as long as Humanity (with a capital H) prospers (see any number of transhumans, from Huron to the Emperor himself). Many more maintain their home world's Death World status for recruitment, despite being easily able to improve living conditions.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

 Omegus wrote:
The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about.

And if the Emperor says otherwise.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

Not if the council uses its head and sees reason.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap.

Once again, contradicted by the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines.

Would he, though?

And reason has nothing to do with it, it's about power.

5th edition codex is 99% about Ultramarines, and besides the point, it was written by Ward and is thus invalid.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

He wouldn't. At least, not immediately. The resulting organizational nightmare from attempting to reintegrate the legions would be a disaster. In any case, there's no need to in the short term, as the Second Founding Chapters and their Successor Chapters are legions in all but name, the latter holding the former as first among equals.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over.

Not according to the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines, which describe Astartes realms as beacons of hope and civilization.

Page 10 of the codex mentions that "...many chapters are based on ferral or otherwise deadly worlds".

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:


The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

Retconned by the Horus Heresy novels. Not sure which one (I think it was the one involving the Battle of Calth), but Guilliman swore an oath to punish Lorgar by the five hundred worlds of the Realm of Ultramar.

No idea what BL is writing but the current Codex Spacemarines p.14 mentions eight worlds ( systems might be more logical because we know of more than just 8 worlds ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

He wouldn't. At least, not immediately. The resulting organizational nightmare from attempting to reintegrate the legions would be a disaster. In any case, there's no need to in the short term, as the Second Founding Chapters and their Successor Chapters are legions in all but name, the latter holding the former as first among equals.

Some do, especialy among the Dark Angels, but certainly not all.

 Omegus wrote:


5th edition codex is 99% about Ultramarines, and besides the point, it was written by Ward and is thus invalid.

Its still GW official, so it is, regardless of fan spank.

So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Yes.

It was from a campaign in 3rd edition IIRC, for special scenarios only... one side would have Loyalist Primarch and the other would have a Chaos Primarch (or Luther) They ran the scenarios at GW stores, I didn't play in them because I played DE.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

And the Lion would sit around, twiddling his thumbs waiting for his place in the Imperium be decided by bureaucrats and pen pushers?

I'm with the people that believes that a Primarch returning would not be a good thing and if it did happen, I believe that it would not be as rosy as you think ser

A couple of the more recent posts here seem to be coloured not just by Astartes-favouritism but outright dislike of core aspects of the "current" Imperium, foremost its most important organisations (minus the AdMech; I'm continuously amazed why only one of the two superstitious backwards and oppressive cults attracts such a strong reaction).

The Ultramarines controlling an entire segmentum?
And all Marines just siding with the Dark Angels and waging war against 99% of the Imperium "just like that", at a time where it is already under siege - basically stabbing humanity in the back?
And Cadia just conveniently "forgetting" centuries of Munitorum propaganda and Ministorum education? And the millions of troops from all across the galaxy that have been sent there just happily playing along?

Nope. Just nope. That reads like an array of bad fan-fiction where things just happen to fall into place in a way that suits the titular hero. I don't even know what the Dark Angels are supposed to achieve at Cadia that nobody else could, with or without a Primarch. But I suppose that is largely because I see the Primarchs as quite vulnerable and fallible rather than some sort of invincible demigod (like I hear they may be presented in certain novels), so it may just be that it's not "my" grimdark 40k that is being discussed here.

If Jonson ever wakes from his slumber - and I don't see this subject being touched by GW anytime soon - he will certainly be treated like a saint by most common people and Marines, yet him falling in battle would have an incredible backlash on the recently boosted morale that any fight he joins will be a huge risk to the Imperium. So much so that should he die, the knowledge of this would certainly be suppressed. Consider that on qutie a number of worlds, people grow up on stories about the Primarchs - legends that are just treated as fact by the IoM at large. Jonson's final sacrifice would call them all into question.

I could actually see the High Lords try to turn him into a pencil pusher. In this sense, a seat on the Senatorum might be a really good idea, provided that this close circle can accept a "newcomer" who is completely unfamiliar with the political game handling such power.

Either way, any sort of civil war even as Abbadon's 13th Crusade is still ongoing would break the Imperium's back, and with it the frail remains of hope left for humanity as a faction amongst the stars.

Red Viper: Thanks! That's an awesome image. Never heard of this scenario - they should've put that into a WD

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

Why should they? The Legions as a concept failed while the chapter system has served the Imperium for 10000 years.

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Inquisition is made up of people who love the Imperium so much they would do whatever it takes to achieve victory, even if it meant making deals with the devil and destroying planets to kill a handful of traitors. They answer to the Emperor and do not care about the High Lords of Terra. No one said they are high minded noble paragons. They are brutal warriors who desire victory at any cost. The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.


The High Lords of Terra are an interesting bunch, there is no sign in either direction if they are horribly corrupt or they are simply trying to defend humanity no matter the cost. No one would argue they are Paragons though. However no High Lord would EVER be dumb enough to defy the Emperor. The others would murder him in a heartbeat. Defying a Primarch is defying the Emperor.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Yes all that is true which means what?

The Lion doesnt care about ruling the Imperium, he wants to defeat the enemies of Hummanity. Also Primarchs are still considered near divine beings in the eyes of the Imperium.

 Red Viper wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Yes.
It was from a campaign in 3rd edition IIRC, for special scenarios only... one side would have Loyalist Primarch and the other would have a Chaos Primarch (or Luther) They ran the scenarios at GW stores, I didn't play in them because I played DE.

Forge World is tackling the Horus Heresy. HH1: Betrayal came out last year, and covered the Isstvaan III incident. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim were given stats. FW has also said that they'll be doing stats and a model for the Emperor, eventually.

HH2 and 3 will cover the drop site massacre. No other books have been announced, yet.

They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.

If the High Lords were at odds with a Primarch masses of the basic peoples would rally to the Primarchs side.


Thats why I think the High Lords wouldn't dare oppose a primarch returning.

 kronk wrote:
They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.

Yeah, it sucks, but that's life.

 Galdos wrote:
Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium.

Because they aren't actually paying attention and instead just throwing around rampant rumormongering so that they can look cool.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.

The overwhelming majority of the population has no clue what a primarch IS, never mind what one LOOKS like. Except for maybe they'd know what Sanguinius looks like, and even then they'd only know from the statues-- Sanguinius being the only one who was sainted. There's no telling how [in]accurate the average statue of him is.

For all they know, the primarch could be some random heretic with way too many mutations and the Imperium is right in opposing them. If primarchs ARE known about by the population, then I find the idea that no one has tried to masquerade as a primarch for political gain in ten thousand years to be even more ridiculous.

 Omegus wrote:
The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about. In some ways, the Primarchs were the Emperor's gravest error.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap. Many Astartes hold the view that they are far superior to regular humans, and that individual lives are insignificant as long as Humanity (with a capital H) prospers (see any number of transhumans, from Huron to the Emperor himself). Many more maintain their home world's Death World status for recruitment, despite being easily able to improve living conditions.

Ya the Custodes hold the Emperor above all. That just means they dont take orders from anyone but the Emperor. The Lion isnt going to try and conquer the Imperium, all he is going to do is take command of the armies of the Imperium at Cadia. Also the Emperor is techincally still alive, he maybe able to speak up and tell the Custodes to listen to the Lion though i doubt it.


What schism is this going to create? Who would DARE SIDE AGAINST A PRIMARCH!? The Imperial Guard, Navy, and Space Marines would support the Lion in fething mass. The Inquisition would also. The Church would also. The Mechanicum couldnt give a damn either way. The Assassins and Custodes could give two gaks about a Primarch returning. Who is left to side against a Primarch? Also Primarchs were charismatic as all hell, simply looking at a Primarch could cow a person. Once a person sees him they are going to believe. Everyone knows that the Lion isnt dead and he is said that one day he will return so this would just seem like a prophecy is coming true. Stranger gak has happened in the Imperium that everyone accepts (Living Saints)

Also the fluff clearly states that the Astartes controlled realms are great places. This is because they keep corruption down (do not read they prevent) because no one is going to try and cheat the system with Space Marines within spitting distance. Even if the Space Marines dont care about humanity, the very presence is enough to help assure that leaders are more likely to be at least competant than otherwise. Are you willing going to say that Astrates-realms are LESSER than realms with non-Space Marines found in them?

Also remember the Lion has no interest in being a High Lord of Terra, they are all going to keep their positions if they support the Primarch.

Galdos wrote:The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.

The funny thing is that the High Lords also represent the will of the Emperor. They just have more political pull with all the major Imperial organisations.

You know, they could simply claim he's a traitor and wants to start a second Heresy.

Grey Templar wrote:If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.
If the High Lords were at odds with a Primarch masses of the basic peoples would rally to the Primarchs side.
Thats why I think the High Lords wouldn't dare oppose a primarch returning.

The masses of the basic people will do what their Preachers and Confessors tell them. Who in turn do what the Ecclesiarch tells them. Who will do what the Council of High Lords votes on.

A Primarch may play a huge role in various legends and epic tales of folklore, but they could be dismantled pretty fast if Imperial propaganda is dedicated to do so. Unlike the Imperium of Man, a lone Primarch climbing out of the mobile fortress of one of the most reclusive Chapters of the independent-minded and loosely affiliated Adeptus Astartes will not have much in terms of contacts he could rely on to do stuff like, you know, even reaching the ears of the "masses of the basic people", much less turn them to his side. It's not like the IoM has some sort of internet where Jonson could just go online and post crazy conspiracy theories on a public platform, calling upon activists to raise up against "the establishment".

Galdos wrote:Who would DARE SIDE AGAINST A PRIMARCH!? The Imperial Guard, Navy, and Space Marines would support the Lion in fething mass. The Inquisition would also. The Church would also.

I'm gonna keep this short: Why?

I'm not saying that the High Lords of Terra would oppose a returning primarch, just that the primarchs don't have anywhere near as much support as some people seem to claim in the modern-- that is, 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy-- Imperium.

 Galdos wrote:
Defying a Primarch is defying the Emperor.

...

That is just an absurd thing to say.

But I seem to be totally out of sync how most people here want 40K to be. I want it to be like Sin City comic, not Superman, a Terry Gilliam film rather than Michael Bay film. People seem to want hope and superheroes, that just isn't the 40K I love.

Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.

The overwhelming majority of the population has no clue what a primarch IS, never mind what one LOOKS like. Except for maybe they'd know what Sanguinius looks like, and even then they'd only know from the statues-- Sanguinius being the only one who was sainted. There's no telling how [in]accurate the average statue of him is.

For all they know, the primarch could be some random heretic with way too many mutations and the Imperium is right in opposing them. If primarchs ARE known about by the population, then I find the idea that no one has tried to masquerade as a primarch for political gain in ten thousand years to be even more ridiculous.

First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate. At least in everyone piece of fluff ive encountered, no one has ever mentioned a statue of a Primarch being wrong. Im talking about Space Marines like the UMs saying "that statue of Guilliman is correct" (or to be more precise, you dont see them saying "well that statue is completely wrong")

Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium, indeed Guilliman in stasis is like the second largest pilgramage spot in the Imperium. Not to mention that there are plenty of stories of characters acknowledging the Primarchs. Now that doesnt mean they are correct about everything. The Primarchs are indeed divine beings and a lot has been lost about them in history. Some people consider them to be fables, myths, etc... But they know of the stories at least.



Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch. You claim that, and a Space Marine will come out and take a look at you and can judge if you are or are not within a second. If you are not, he will kill you in a heart beat.

 Galdos wrote:
First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate.

I have no reason to believe this.

 Galdos wrote:
Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium

You say that but without any real evidence.

These mythological beings known as "primarchs" are little more than a legend after what has essentially been ten thousand years of inactivity and irrelevance.

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

Please, you think heretics give a gak about who they offend unless it's the dark god they specifically follow?

 Melissia wrote:
Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.

Defying the High Lords of Terra is defying the Emperor ya that would be a valid statement. Unless you are a Space marine, you dont defy the Inquisition for that is also considered defying the Emperor. Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.




Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium. Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch) and word errupts around the Imperium that a Primarch has returned. Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like. Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch. In a short time the Primarch has the loyalty of every Guard/SM/Navy/Church/Inquisition personal near Cadia. With this monumental support, no one is going to stand up and refuse to listen to this man and call him a heretic. (Why would they after all? If anything they would fight each other to make themselves allies with the Lion)

 Galdos wrote:
Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.

Not quite.

The Sisters of Battle regulate the church in the Emperor's name. They are also the last ones to have actually spoken with Him aside from His own Custodes.

I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate.

I have no reason to believe this.

 Galdos wrote:
Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium

You say that but without any real evidence.

These mythological beings known as "primarchs" are little more than a legend after what has essentially been ten thousand years of inactivity and irrelevance.

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

Please, you think heretics give a gak about who they offend unless it's the dark god they specifically follow?

Okay maybe you just need to read Black Library books and the HH novels to understand this stuff. Guardsmen are encountered in the stories mentioning Primarchs, statues are encountered all the time, and Primarchs have power that you cant fool a Space Marine because who Space Marines are. Heretics arnt going to walk up to a Space Marine and claim to be the Primarch of that Space Marines chapter and expect the Space Marine to believe him

 Galdos wrote:
Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch)

He is accused of being an unsanctioned psyker and a mutant, because heretic psykers have done this very thing many times in Imperial history.

 Galdos wrote:
Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like.

Only one Space Marine alive has seen a primarch in action. He's usually kept in stasis until he's ready for his next battle.

 Galdos wrote:
Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch.

See the first paragraph. Your little fantasy assumes that everything goes right, which is a hilariously naive and wrong way of assuming how it will go in 40k.

 Galdos wrote:


Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium.

Are you sure he would not just wait to see which side would win to then side with them and say that he supported them all along, but was just too busy to help with the actual battle?

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

I accepted this point, Non-Space Marines may not know what all of the Primarchs look like but they dont need to. Primarchs have a certain Charisma to them. Thats how the Primarchs were able to conquer their worlds before the Emperor showed up, because they could inspire loyalty the way no mortal man could


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Galdos wrote:


Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium.

Are you sure he would not just wait to see which side would win to then side with them and say that he supported them all along, but was just too busy to help with the actual battle?

Popular way to joke around him but current fluff shows the Lion to be extremely loyal to the Emperor

 Galdos wrote:
Okay maybe you just need to read Black Library books

Which one? The gakky marinewank bolter porn novels that depict them as gods upon the battlefield, thus pissing and gakking all over the lore? The non-Astartes based lore, the overwhelming majority of which has absolutely no mention of any primarchs at all?

Fan-fiction perhaps? Because fanfiction where your favorite primarch becomes a mary sue seems to be what you're heading towards.

 Galdos wrote:
and the HH novels

Irrelevant. Those novels are 10,000 years out of date.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch)

He is accused of being an unsanctioned psyker and a mutant, because heretic psykers have done this very thing many times in Imperial history.

 Galdos wrote:
Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like.

Only one Space Marine alive has seen a primarch in action. He's usually kept in stasis until he's ready for his next battle.

 Galdos wrote:
Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch.

See the first paragraph. Your little fantasy assumes that everything goes right, which is a hilariously naive and wrong way of assuming how it will go in 40k.

I give up, this is actually unbelieveable.

 Galdos wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.

Defying the High Lords of Terra is defying the Emperor ya that would be a valid statement. Unless you are a Space marine, you dont defy the Inquisition for that is also considered defying the Emperor. Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.

The Space Wolves defy the Inquisition all of the time. Both the Space Wolves and the Black Templars are ignoring the 1000 Marine Chapter limit as outlined in the Codex Astartes.

Two examples that don't support your theory, I'm afraid.

Galdos wrote:Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium, indeed Guilliman in stasis is like the second largest pilgramage spot in the Imperium.

That I know to be just flat-out wrong. It may be so within Ultramar, but codex and rulebook fluff actually touched upon pilgrimages and the most popular ones were on the opposite side of the galaxy. The most famous pilgrimage route is Ophelia VII -> Chiros -> Gathalamor -> Terra.

Or was this retconned by a new Codex? If so, I'd like to know. :3

Galdos wrote:Not to mention that there are plenty of stories of characters acknowledging the Primarchs.

Most of whom only told on the handful of planets under direct control of the Space Marines, I'd presume. The Imperium of Man has a vast number of saints and stories, and for quite some time the Ecclesiarchy has been in a minor schism with the Adeptus Astartes, torn between their biological connection to the Emperor and their continueing defiance of the Imperial Creed.

I have a feeling some posters are completely dismissing the effects of Imperial propaganda, indoctrination and infiltration here. People in the Imperium grow up hanging on the lips of Ministorum clerics. A figure from legends past showing up would surely raise confusion, but I don't see why exactly the citizens should forget the officials they're used to obey and believe in favour of some mythical hero they've never met even once in their life, and who is rather unlikely to show up in person on their little planet. I mean, isn't it obvious that - should a conflict truly occur - the Ecclesiarchy would just go "o horror, our God-Emperor weepetht, for one of his most favourite sons hath turneth from the light, corrupted in his slumber by the voices of dreadful daemons" and people would just go "rabblerabblerabble"?

Because in the end, Emperor > Primarch, and I don't really see a reason why the common citizen should suddenly disbelieve the clerics they trusted all their life so far. They are not aware of the political infighting. They only know what they are told - by the very organisations that Jonson would have to fight. It'd take some major event to "wake people up", and I just don't know how exactly you think that would occur?

 Galdos wrote:
I give up, this is actually unbelieveable.

I concur entirely. Your theory IS actually quite unbelievable.

This is the same setting whereupon the quote "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time" (Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, C:WH 3rd Edition) is considered a JUSTIFIED statement.

What I'd like to think would happen if a Primarch (or even a reborn Emperor!) would return is something similar that happens in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor (from the Brothers Karamazov; yes, GW knows this wonderful little tale well.)



That's grimdark!

Ah, the Brothers Karamazov.

It gets more grimdark if you consider that the guy arrested and burned by Lord Inquisitor Karamazov in 40k was believed by Thorian Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy to be a vessel for the Emperor's resurrection.

 Lynata wrote:
Ah, the Brothers Karamazov.

It gets more grimdark if you consider that the guy arrested and burned by Lord Inquisitor Karamazov in 40k was believed by Thorian Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy to be a vessel for the Emperor's resurrection.

Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

Even Inquisitors can be fooled by a heretic every now and then. Those are the most dangerous of heretics. Therefor, Inquisitors by their very nature are uncompromising beings to avoid things like this.

 Crimson wrote:
What I'd like to think would happen if a Primarch (or even a reborn Emperor!) would return is something similar that happens in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor.

Spoiler:

In the tale, Christ comes back to earth in Seville at the time of the Inquisition. He performs a number of miracles (echoing miracles from the Gospels). The people recognize him and adore him, but he is arrested by Inquisition leaders and sentenced to be burnt to death the next day. The Grand Inquisitor visits him in his cell to tell him that the Church no longer needs him. The main portion of the text is devoted to the Inquisitor explaining to Jesus why his return would interfere with the mission of the Church.

That's grimdark!

Agreed. Primarchs are more useful as myths and legends-- angels (fallen or otherwise) serving under the God-Emperor-- than as actual living beings.

Melissia wrote:Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

I dunno ... I actually like the idea of the various Imperial agencies sometimes working against the Emperor's vision, even sabotaging it. I guess my thirst for this dystopian aspect of the setting is why I like 40k so much more than the Brighthammer HH stuff with its shiny heroes. Not to mention the old Inquisition fluff about the big conspiracy to prevent Big E's rebirth out of fear it'd destroy the Imperium for good.

That being said, we could always theorise that Karamazov just faked the evidence to save his hide, as completely unsupported as this is by the material itself.

 Lynata wrote:
That being said, we could always theorise that Karamazov just faked the evidence to save his hide, as completely unsupported as this is by the material itself.

He could have yes.

We'll never know, will we? Both interpretations are pretty grimdark.

 Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

I dunno ... I actually like the idea of the various Imperial agencies sometimes working against the Emperor's vision, even sabotaging it. I guess my thirst for this dystopian aspect of the setting is why I like 40k so much more than the Brighthammer HH stuff with its shiny heroes. Not to mention the old Inquisition fluff about the big conspiracy to prevent Big E's rebirth out of fear it'd destroy the Imperium for good.

Yes, exactly! And now with the FW doing HH, can we please keep 40K properly dystopian?

 Galdos wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Yes all that is true which means what?

The Lion doesnt care about ruling the Imperium, he wants to defeat the enemies of Hummanity. Also Primarchs are still considered near divine beings in the eyes of the Imperium.

My point is that even a returned primarch would be unlikely to reverse the reforms done by Papa Smurf. Even attempting to do so would mark him has a traitor and heretic of the worst kind, just like his powerhungry brothers were once marked. The Heresy has not been forgotten, especialy not by those in power and the "unwashed" masses will usualy do what their confessors or, on less pious worlds the people in charge, tell them.
So yes, a returned primarch can care about defeating the enemies of humanity, but he has to do so within the frames of the Imperium. What people like to forget is that the carriongod's Great Crusade Imperium, where the Primarchs and their spacemarine spawn had actual political power, lasted for a mere 200 years before it fell into civil war while the current day Imperium, despite all of it's many flaws, managed to last trough 10000 years of neverending warfare. To upset such a (relatively) sucessful system would require a realy good justification.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Then they would just let the Imperium crumble away? Are they that stupid? They may not be paragons, but they are definitely pragmatic. And there's still the Captain-General of the Custodes, who is also a High Lord at times, and may arguably be delivering missives from the Emperor. If the Emperor says Lion or a loyal Primarch takes charge, are they gonna argue? Of course not; the Custodes would summarily execute them for treason.

And this is why the argument is moot. IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side with all of the 1ST legion the Scars, and wolves would join quickly as would the BA When lion had assembled this force He would take command with the Custodes support the inquistion would be screwed quickly. The Sisters believe in the Emperor and his sons It would all be at Lions command. Game set match.

IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side

Why?

What makes you think that charismatic heretics and psykers have not tried to overtake Cadia from within before-- and that they are not prepared for it to happen again?

Chaos is VERY well known for their subversive tactics. It's pretty much their big thing.

 Melissia wrote:

IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side

Why?

What makes you think that charismatic heretics and psykers have not tried to overtake Cadia from within before-- and that they are not prepared for it to happen again?

Chaos is VERY well known for their subversive tactics. It's pretty much their big thing.

They would see him lead 10,000 astartes against chaos and smashing them right back into the warp Creed is a smart guy he could put 2 and 2 together.

 captain collius wrote:
They would see him lead 10,000 astartes

Actually, that would probably make them even MORE likely to resist.

Last time that many Astartes gathered in one place under a single commander was the Horus Heresy. The Imperium has not yet forgotten the sins of the Astartes. They are not trusted with that much power by any authority in the Imperium-- and for good reason.

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

More or less this. Primarchs are venerated legendary figures and are displayed in statues/artwork frequently. Originally this wasn't so much the case in fluff, but since the HH series has started GW is slowly injecting this fact in. The Titanoliths being the best example.

How is the argument moot? You do not supply much for why anyone should care about Jonson, you just say "they'd listen to him" as if you'd present a fact rather than a theory.

I'm leaning towards most of the Astartes doing it (at least as long as it doesn't devolve into an all-out civil war where a Chapter would have to decide between the Dark Angels or Terra), but I just don't see why a returning Primarch should completely override the command structure people grew up in simply by climbing out of his rock.

Cadia is populated by what amounts to be a heavily militarised and disciplined society. They will do what their superior officer tells them. This means that the Cadians will listen to Creed, and barring some exceptional event I don't see why Creed should favour Jonson over Segmentum Command and the Munitorum.

The Sisters of Battle believe in the Emperor, his "sons" do not play much of a role in the Imperial Creed. The connection is part of why the Ecclesiarchy appears a bit split on how to deal with the Astartes, but obviously this has not prevented purge missions to occur in the past, not to mention an underlying rivalry between specific Orders Militant and Astartes Chapters. The Space Wolves and the Blood Angels joining forces with Jonson would be an obvious turn-off for the Sisterhood, even if they'd consider splitting from the Ecclesiarchy - and you can forget about that as well; they're much too indoctrinated and faithful for that.

Lastly, the Custodes ... what leads you to just assume they'd pick sides rather than standing on the side as they did during the Age of Apostasy?

captain collius wrote:They would see him lead 10,000 astartes against chaos and smashing them right back into the warp Creed is a smart guy he could put 2 and 2 together.

Those 10.000 Astartes are already in the area, trying to stem the invasion. Jonson adding to their number might have a morale effect because of "it's a Primarch!!!", but how much that would affect the actual military campaign remains doubtful.
Unless you buy into this "invincible demigod" stuff and take all those legends and fairytales as truth rather than taking into account that many of them are even criticised within the setting.

In fact, Jonson may have a problem with the reputation of his Chapter. The Imperial Navy almost opened fire on the Dark Angels' ships over Armageddon because the military was pissed they were withdrawing their forces just like that. And this is not the only story we have about the Dark Angels forsaking their allies and having a fairly bad rep as far as reliability is concerned. And that's just what GW wrote about them!

The Dark Angels showing up around Cadia will have Creed wonder how long they'll stay around this time rather than cheering in relief. After all, it's impossible to include them as a factor in a campaign - you'll never know if they actually stick to the plan, even if they'd be willing to talk it over with you. Which, more often than not, they won't.

 Melissia wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
They would see him lead 10,000 astartes

Actually, that would probably make them even MORE likely to resist.

Last time that many Astartes gathered in one place was the Horus Heresy. The Imperium has not yet forgotten the sins of the Astartes. They are not trusted with that much power by any authority in the Imperium-- and for good reason.

Armageddon and the Badab war never happened then?

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Armageddon and the Badab war never happened then?

Those aren't very good examples, and especially for Badab they really only serve as MORE reason to distrust Marines.

Well, if it'd be the Ultras I imagine they'd be more welcome, but the Dark Angels just don't have the same rep.

Sir Samuel Buca does raise a good point about how the vast distances and the delay in interstellar communication could impact any attempts by the High Lords to take steps against Jonson, though. If he just shows up somewhere faraway, he'd surely have at least several weeks or even months until they'd even become aware that there's a Primarch walking around. And the first reports would likely be regarded with some suspicion, either thinking it's an impostor or a mistake.

I'm still sceptical as to whether it would, hypothetically, truly be that easy for him to just assume command based on his status. Imperial decree dictates a firm separation between Astartes and other Imperial forces unless authorised by the very same organisations that some posters argue Jonson would have to fight.
I could see it happen, I just don't think the matter it is as crystal-clear as some people apparently assume.

PS: I did make a mistake with my comment regarding Armageddon, though - turns out that was another Chapter! >_<

Wow, I didn't know that Lion would be so popular...

Anyway, I don;t see any problem with High Lords welcoming Lion back, especially if there are secret helpers of Dark Angels in the Council of Terra itself.

The real problem would start not with the High Lords but with the Ecclesiarchy... He would probably not get the idea that his father is a God very well...

I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Exalted

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That...actually makes sense.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:


I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

This too.

EDIT: I've noticed some people here are disregarding the Horus Heresy series and other BL publications...I've already had this conversation with Manchu before; fan spank aside, BL and FW are both GW-affiliated companies, and therefore, their work is just as 'canon' as GW's own publications.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Exalted

Wait....
I must be in an alternate reality again.
Damn it i killed the wrong person during that last time jump
I knew i shouldn't of Killed Miss Roosevelt

I love this speculation. Would be incredible and not really a step forward! More like adding to the five minutes till midnight feeling!

Melissia wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:[...]

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Have to agree. Deeds would go a long way to make people - quite likely even the High Lords - appreciate him as a capable defender of the Imperium, rather than regard him as a threat to stability.
His leadership could also cleanse the Dark Angels of that dreaded stigma of unreliability, assuming that he wouldn't tolerate shenanigans such as his troops simply withdrawing from a fight or refusing to coordinate with other Imperial forces. I imagine it would take a while, especially since there are so many notable armies pulling off valiant things, but huge campaigns such as Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade are like a furnace where legends are wrought.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I've noticed some people here are disregarding the Horus Heresy series and other BL publications...I've already had this conversation with Manchu before; fan spank aside, BL and FW are both GW-affiliated companies, and therefore, their work is just as 'canon' as GW's own publications.

Unfortunately, all the material being of equal value does not, in far too many cases, make it any more "compatible" to each other...

As it stands now the High Lords would probably try to kill him with the Officio Assassinorum or Inquisition (keep in mind that after the apparent success of killing Kurze, the Officio would boost they can kill a Primarch easily), fearing he'd disrupt the status quo too much. He'd have to be very hush-hush about his return indeed.

People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

DarthMarko wrote:People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....

That could become a problem. That said, apparently he had no problem leaving the reformation of the Imperium to Guilliman and the rest of the Senatorum, returning to Caliban in grief rather than worrying about any political power. Plus, he seems to harbour an enormous hatred for Chaos. I would suspect him to focus entirely on Abaddon and his forces, actually.

DarthMarko wrote:Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

Depends on how you read/interpret GW's fluff. I tend to be sceptical and thus think it is propaganda* ... just like I think the Primarch legends are really just that - legends (although with some truth at their core, just distorted by millennia of oral tradition and exaggeration). Officially, the High Lords basically act as the Emperor's mouthpiece, their task being to interpret his divine will and act accordingly. I'm not sure whether or not the High Lords actually believe this themselves, but I wouldn't put it past them to have long sessions where they meditate on an issue in the hopes of their God-Emperor guiding their thoughts in the Senatorum's decision-making process.

For the Sisterhood, the Codex just mentions that their Founding Saints were invited to an audience before the Golden Throne, which apparently opened their eyes regarding Vandire, prompting their leader to end his reign with a strike of her power sword. The text implies they spoke with/to the Emperor, but again, I'm sceptical and suspect either (a) the Custodes somehow managed to sway their mind with proof of Vandire's evil, (b) they actually were led to a secret meeting with Sebastian Thor, or (c) they were tricked by an elaborate hoax where someone faked the Emperor's voice as if his demi-corpse would be a marionette.

Not that it would matter much, mind you. People grow up "knowing" that the High Lords speak for the Emperor. Why should they doubt it? That's how propaganda works.


*: Yeah, I'm operating on the belief that the Emperor isn't talking to anyone these days. To me, he is like a lobotomised figurehead whose mind is shackled to the singular task of keeping the Astronomican alight, basically acting like a conduit for the Psykers sacrificed to fuel it. I mean, he used to be able to do it by himself, no?

I won't discount the possibility that his spirit is still intact and active enough to have some form of conscience, and even contact various people's minds and guide them via visions like the Ecclesiarchy preaches, but for the time being I will continue to believe that this is all just wishy-washy religious stuff that people are telling themselves and others to make them feel better. More grimdark this way.

@Lynata, ty for the kind answer....

Anytime. I love discussing this sort of stuff.

Oh, for references - the bit about the High Lords is mentioned in the fluff appendix of the 6E rulebook (originating from the Codex Imperialis; they just copypasted the whole article), whereas the audience of Alicia Dominica and her five companions is discussed in the SoB Codex' section on the Age of Apostasy.

I think the HH series gives enough support as to why Lion would gain instant support among the Space Marines, and probably Guard, who actually meet him face to face. The Primarchs are described as having an immediate effect on anyone who lays eyes on them. They are powerful in more than just war, they immediately give off a sense that they should be listened to and they are in charge. Among the Space Marines, who know the legends about the Primarchs, that would be impossible to fake.

I disagree. The Space Marines of 40k are quite a bit different than those of 30k, and none of them actually KNOW him-- know of him, at most... know about him? Outside the Dark Angels, none of them.

When an ancient hero "appears" out of nowhere to try to tell you to commit heresy, it is not as easy a decision as one might think.

I'm in favor of the High Lords, as well as the Ordo Hereticus and probably several other chapters coming down hard on the Dark Angels.

Think of this from the perspective of people who don't know anything about the truth of the HH or of the Lion's whereabouts and have been taught for millenia that the Lion died.long ago. Which is more likely? A primarch returning to life and leading his chapter, as well as 99% of their successors all uniting under his control, or a chapter in the midst of falling to chaos, something with a great deal of precedence, who is being controlled by some demonic being/artifact/whatever that is making them believe it's their primarch? It's a matter of ignorance, suspicion, and miscommunication. Three traits that are core to 40k. Even if the Lion were standing before the attacking army and proclaimed who he was, who's to say it isn't an illusion or some sort of mind controlling sorcery? Again, something with a great deal of precedence.

jareddm wrote:Which is more likely? A primarch returning to life and leading his chapter, as well as 99% of their successors all uniting under his control, or a chapter in the midst of falling to chaos, something with a great deal of precedence, who is being controlled by some demonic being/artifact/whatever that is making them believe it's their primarch?

That is a fairly good point - especially considering the Dark Angels already being treated with suspicion because of their weird behaviour in the ongoing attempt to hide their great secret.

One of the big ironies in 40k fluff, by the way - if they would've come out with the truth right away, I don't think the Imperium would have condemned them.

 DarthMarko wrote:
People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

While the Lion was ambitious he wasn't a complete idiot who would instantly try to usurp the status quo for his own gain

I have no idea if I'm missing sarcasm or something but you know that the fluff for the main part of the13th Black Crusade already happened 10 years ago, right?



Even if you accept that the white dwarf 'endings' are being quietly ignored due to them being pants or they're quietly rewinding time a little to avoid them, it still doesn't involve the Dark Angels running off to Cadia to save the day.

No, they turn back, going to the Caliban star system and wander about there for a while, with not a primarch in sight.

http://www.nickryan.net/articles/arthur.html

This guy claimed to be King Arthur reborn. A legendary hero ~3000 ago, who's veracity is uncertain.Many people don't believe him.

Should the Lion return, what is to stop people thimking the same, especially if egged on by the Ecclesiarchy? His physical presence may be enough to convince people, but the Imperium is a big place...

Furthermore, I daresay the =][= would have some potent questions for the Dark Angels upon his return. "Your primarch has returned, has he? Where has he been all this time? A secret chamber inside the Rock, I see. What else have you got in there? Captured heretics, who were former members of your Chapter? That isn't good. We'll need to interview them. Yes, even that 'Luther' one. And what are these 'Watcher' creatures? You're not sure. Probably xenos. Possibly psykers. Whats to stop them being creatures of Chaos? The fact that they healed the Lion!?! So your mysterious Primarch, suddenly returned, was healed by unknown creatures, and may be corrupted. This isn't good Azrael. Not good at all.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

While the Lion was ambitious he wasn't a complete idiot who would instantly try to usurp the status quo for his own gain

Who said anything "instantly" ?

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

There are lots and lots of marines pretending to be Alpharius

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

Pretty likely.

How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

^ and then?

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ and then?

Cliff hanger and ... fade to black

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

It truly was the Lion, the Lion of Legend, the Father of the Dark Angels and Emperors Son, his blond hair gently swaying in the recycled palace air, flanked by the legendary Custodes to escort him to the meeting with the High Lords.

Clavicus sat in the darkness, rifle in hand. All to easy he thought to himself as he squeezed the trigger.

Mission Accomplished the message said, all to easy thought the Master of the Administratum as the Palace alarms began to sound.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

Who should give these orders? The carriongod can't even talk these days.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

It truly was the Lion, the Lion of Legend, the Father of the Dark Angels and Emperors Son, his blond hair gently swaying in the recycled palace air, flanked by the legendary Custodes to escort him to the meeting with the High Lords.

Clavicus sat in the darkness, rifle in hand. All to easy he thought to himself as he squeezed the trigger.

Mission Accomplished the message said, all to easy thought the Master of the Administratum as the Palace alarms began to sound.

As Clavicus turned, another blade swung out of the shadows and cut his head off. And the real Lion emerged from the shadows, gazing down at the dead Assassin and his own dead body double, flanked by Custode bodyguards. "Arrest the High Lords immediately. We now have proof of treason."

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

Who should give these orders? The carriongod can't even talk these days.

He did give orders to the Si-I mean, Word Bearers 2.0

Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD, but yet a Primarch who is designed to be the second most powerful type of human being in the galaxy second to only the Emperor himself manages to pull a few tricks is mary sue fanfiction? Have you forgotten the connection SMs have to their Primarchs through their geneseed?

More like you're the one who's at odds with the fluff.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD, but yet a Primarch who is designed to be the second most powerful type of human being in the galaxy second to only the Emperor himself manages to pull a few tricks is mary sue fanfiction? Have you forgotten the connection SMs have to their Primarchs through their geneseed?

More like you're the one who's at odds with the fluff.

Lol

You make a good point, EXALTED!

 Galdos wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Inquisition is made up of people who love the Imperium so much they would do whatever it takes to achieve victory, even if it meant making deals with the devil and destroying planets to kill a handful of traitors. They answer to the Emperor and do not care about the High Lords of Terra. No one said they are high minded noble paragons. They are brutal warriors who desire victory at any cost. The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.

Yes, that, or they are scheming, power-hungry Chaos sorcerers who sacrifice entire worlds for their whims. The Primarchs have proven themselves unreliable; the ones that didn't croak, either betrayed the Imperium or abandoned it. If certain people in the Imperium would defy the Emperor (if only covertly) while the Emperor was around, they certainly wouldn't mind doing the same against one of his walking mistakes when he's been dead for 10,000 years.

Your view of the Imperium, or even just plain old humanity, is far too rosy.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

Not according to the people posting in this thread.

 Melissia wrote:


Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone. They aren't infallible either; remember Saint Basilius? Sending all those Astartes into the Eye of Terror for being 'found wanting' in his humble opinion. Too bad they didn't agree when they came back; they crushed his reputation, smashed his relics, and fired his rotting corpse into a star IIRC.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

Compared to the idiots on the council, he'd certainly do a better job of pulling the Imperium up from the ashes.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

Idiots, or power hungry egotistical maniacs?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


Compared to the idiots on the council, he'd certainly do a better job of pulling the Imperium up from the ashes.

He did a great job of looking after Caliban .. oh wait

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone.

I never claimed any of them were perfect, unlike the people in this thread making claims about the Lion.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

Idiots, or power hungry egotistical maniacs?

Here in the Philippines, if its government, those two descriptions are one and the same. I don't imagine its any different in 40k from what I'm starting to see.

He did a great job of looking after Caliban .. oh wait

A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone.

I never claimed any of them were perfect, unlike the people in this thread making claims about the Lion.

I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into. But of course, people automatically argue its better to just let the Imperium go on the way it is rather than changing for the future because its too risky. Idiocy; with risk comes progress.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

And the difference between the Emperor leaving the High Lords in charge and Lion leaving Luthor in charge is? It was also Lions fault for leaving Luthor in charge.

If you have read the HH Dark Angels stories you'll also note that some of the Dark Angels believe that the driving force behind them was in fact Luthor not the Lion.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

Yes because one person can solve all the Imperiums problems.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And the difference between the Emperor leaving the High Lords in charge and Lion leaving Luthor in charge is? It was also Lions fault for leaving Luthor in charge.

Like father like son, if you put it like that

If you have read the HH Dark Angels stories you'll also note that some of the Dark Angels believe that the driving force behind them was in fact Luthor not the Lion.

Some but not all.

Yes because one person can solve all the Imperiums problems.

No...but its a start. Certainly better than just fatalistically maintaining the status quo hoping a fake god-head does something miraculous to solve the situation. Simply put: they want an absolute being to make all the decisions for them. Why not just worship Chaos then?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years and is still going, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with without devastating the Imperium.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with before it could destroy it.

The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation, with victory ultimately going to Chaos. Its a last stand scenario. Its not the worst-case scenario, its the only scenario. I say we take the risk and cede authority to a Primarch.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation

The primarch-ruled Imperium died a fast death due to stupidity, betrayal, stupidity, over-expansion, stupidity, chaos, stupidity, immaturity, and stupidity.

At least the human rulers aren't whining about how their dad doesn't love them enough.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation

The primarch-ruled Imperium died a fast death due to stupidity, betrayal, stupidity, over-expansion, stupidity, chaos, stupidity, immaturity, and stupidity.

At least the human rulers aren't whining about how their dad doesn't love them enough.

No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

EDIT: And the Primarchs never ruled the Imperium. The Primarchs' War Council decided the course of the war, Malcador handled the civilian side of things, and the Emperor oversaw both. Later on, the Warmaster would replace the War Council to command the Imperial war machine under the Emperor, while the Council of Terra governed the Imperium under the Emperor. Primarchs never governed the Imperium, Humans always did (though it can be argued Malcador was a Trans-Human himself).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

They aren't failing.

Despite the fact that the Imperium faces greater enemies now than during the Great Crusade, and despite lacking the "omgwtfbbqgodly heroes" that are the Primarchs, the Imperium is STILL doing better 10,000 years after its start than it was a mere 300 years after the start of the Great Crusade.

The Imperium faces greater dangers than the primarchs did. The primarchs never had to throw back the Tyranid invasion. The primarchs FAILED to throw back their black crusade (see: horus heresy) where Cadia has withstood thirteen. Hell, even the Orks the Imperium faces are bigger, stronger, and better led than during the Great Crusade.

Humanity kicks fething ass. We don't need a failed inhuman "hero".

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

They aren't failing.

Despite the fact that the Imperium faces greater enemies now than during the Great Crusade, and despite lacking the "omgwtfbbqgodly heroes" that are the Primarchs, the Imperium is STILL doing better 10,000 years after its start than it was a mere 300 years after the start of the Great Crusade.

The Imperium is dying. All they're doing is delaying the inevitable.

The Imperium faces greater dangers than the primarchs did. The primarchs never had to throw back the Tyranid invasion. The primarchs FAILED to throw back their black crusade (see: horus heresy) where Cadia has withstood thirteen. Hell, even the Orks the Imperium faces are bigger, stronger, and better led than during the Great Crusade.

The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

 Melissia wrote:


Humanity kicks fething ass. We don't need a failed inhuman "hero".

Then I guess you don't need the Emperor either. As a Trans-Human who has surpassed Humanity, he's not Human either. You don't Psykers and Navigators either, since they're not Human either: the former are prototype Trans-Humans and the latter are designer Mutants. You don't need Astartes either, since as catch-up Trans-Humans, they're not Human. Good luck with that: no Emperor, no Psykers, no Navigators, and no Astartes. Last stand it is then, with no chance of victory, just go out in a blaze of glory.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

And within a few decades they nearly lost everything that they had gained because of their own incompetence.. The Imperium under humans has lasted for ten thousand years, and despite facing greater enemies than the primarchs ever DREAMED of, it has never suffered a defeat the likes of the Horus Heresy.

Really, the primarchs are probably the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

And within a few decades they nearly lost everything that they had gained because of their own incompetence.. The Imperium under humans has lasted for ten thousand years, and despite facing greater enemies has never suffered a defeat the likes of the Horus Heresy.

The fact that the Imperium is dying a slow and painful death with no hope of victory under their governance is a defeat greater than the Horus Heresy ever was.

 Melissia wrote:


Really, the primarchs are probably the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium. Under the Imperial Truth, red banners waved and golden eagles flew. Reason. Order. Technological certainty. Salvation from Chaos. A new dawn for Mankind across the stars. Then came the Imperial Church...believe! Don't doubt! Don't think! And so the dream died, and with it, the future...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

The Ecclesiarchy is the only reason that the Imperium survived the complete and utter incompetence of the primarchs, who would have otherwise destroyed it because of their skull-fethed stupidity. It unites the Imperium in a way that none of the primarchs were ever capable of doing.

The primarchs were not capable of saving the Imperium then, they're incapable of saving it now, as well. Only human courage and the might of the Imperial war machine can save the Imperium. And it will be enough.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

Only human courage and the might of the Imperial war machine can save the Imperium. And it will be enough.

No. It won't. The Imperium is nothing more than a brain-dead body now, and all that's left is to die a glorious end before the Great Enemy consumes all.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. It won't.

It already is.

Where the primarchs failed, humanity has succeeded. It has succeeded through many dark times. People thought it would fail during the Age of Apostasy and yet it pulled through. People thought it would fail during the various Black Crusades but it pulled through. People thought it would fail from the Tyranid swarms, but it pulled through. It will continue to do so despite the fact that it faces threats great than anything the primarchs were capable of overcoming.

In the end, the primarchs are failures, and will never amount to anything more than failures. They will always be such-- for all of their supposed grandeur and skill, the primarchs will always be nothing more than this.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. It won't.

It already is.

Where the primarchs failed, humanity has succeeded. It has succeeded through many dark times. People thought it would fail during the Age of Apostasy and yet it pulled through. People thought it would fail during the various Black Crusades but it pulled through. People thought it would fail from the Tyranid swarms, but it pulled through.

In the end, the primarchs are failures, and will never amount to anything more than failures. They will always be such-- for all of their supposed grandeur and skill, the primarchs will always be nothing more than a bunch of failures.

Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium. Your belief in Mankind pulling through is hollow. The future died with the Imperial Truth. All that is left is to go out so brightly that the darkened galaxy will never forget it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium.

Please. GW would never let the Imperium die. That would ruin their franchise.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium.

Please. GW would never let the Imperium die. That would ruin their franchise.

You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

It was good that the Imperial Truth died as it was built on lies. The Ecclesiarchy and the faith in the God Emperor of mankind is the one unifying thing in the Imperium.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It was good that the Imperial Truth died as it was built on lies. The Ecclesiarchy and the faith in the God Emperor of mankind is the one unifying thing in the Imperium.

So basically replacing one lie with another lie? Nice...I prefer the one with red banners and lots of high-tech stuff rather than the one with frothing and raving madmen who are basically parodies of my religion IRL.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

To be fair, is either of us taking this seriously at this point?

And "the galaxy will burn" has basically been the default state since Horus got a burr in his pants.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

To be fair, is either of us taking this seriously at this point?

No, I don't think so. We're just trading flames with each other.

And "the galaxy will burn" has basically been the default state since Horus got a burr in his pants.

Its going to get hotter then

Post imperium 40k is orks, eldar, necrons, and nids everthing thing else pretty much auto dies/gets eaten.

Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Is this the right time to dredge up the old "DA is secretly chaos" theory? Because the most hilarious outcome of all this would be the Lion rolling up to Cadia, brofisting Abbadon, and burning the planet to the ground while GW throws up their hands and says "What? You said you wanted another chaos marine codex."

Emperors death = star child = chaos dies = those in the physical realm fight one last battle for control of the universe.

I dunno, I don't feel a ragnarok/apocalypse/etc is really that suitable for 40k.

After all, in 40k, there is only war. Even after war, there's still only war.

 Rainyday wrote:
Is this the right time to dredge up the old "DA is secretly chaos" theory? Because the most hilarious outcome of all this would be the Lion rolling up to Cadia, brofisting Abbadon, and burning the planet to the ground while GW throws up their hands and says "What? You said you wanted another chaos marine codex."

Sir, you made my day. That would be totally awesome... I'm a DA player but my loyalty goes to the Lion, not to the Imperium so It would be totally feasible...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


The fact that the Imperium is dying a slow and painful death with no hope of victory under their governance is a defeat greater than the Horus Heresy ever was.

Probably.

Imperium is a crumbling dystopian tyranny, ruled by corrupt despots. And this is awesome.

I do not care if a Primarch rule would be objectively better. I do not want things to get better! Everyone of course has a right to their opinion, but there are many people in this thread that would totally destroy things that make 40K cool for me if they had their way.

Alright, to hell with you all, the best thing to happen to the Imperium and whatever is holding it together is Krieg and its Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

Bobthehero wrote:Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

My mind just auto-conjured an image of 8-bit pixel Guardsmen running across a two-dimensional battlefield, whilst the player is putting down trenches, ladders and Commissars. "How many Krieg Guardsmen can you guide into the breach?"

Somebody turn this into a game!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with before it could destroy it.

The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation, with victory ultimately going to Chaos. Its a last stand scenario. Its not the worst-case scenario, its the only scenario. I say we take the risk and cede authority to a Primarch.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.
That the current Imperium is doomed to a slow death is true. This is still more impressive than the Imperium ruled by the idiot emperor and his children which lasted for less than 300 years before it collapsed into anarchy and terror. Guillaume, because he actualy seemed to posess a brain, learned from the mistake of his father and made sure that all power in the Imperium is ultimately split.
This practice has preserved the Imperium for 10000 years, despite it's structural weaknesses the ever present threat of corruption and opponents which exceed everything the Great Crusade has witnessed.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Alright, to hell with you all, the best thing to happen to the Imperium and whatever is holding it together is Krieg and its Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

Amen Brother.

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar is pretty much the only one; they don't see the need to recruit savages from deathworlds like most of the other Chapters (Wolves, Blood Angels, etc).

Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

They did quite alright without him, too, considering he led it for only the last 50 years or so of the Crusade.

And if we do dismiss the Marty Sue version of the Lion proposed in this thread, and consider the flawed version of the HH novels, now we have a volatile, overly proud leader who has absolutely no political acumen or the ability to read people. Yay.

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar is pretty much the only one; they don't see the need to recruit savages from deathworlds like most of the other Chapters (Wolves, Blood Angels, etc).

The Chapter Master entry of Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition says otherwise.

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Chaos goes with him? What?

The Emperor won't "die" when the throne fails, any more than Magnus died when he gave up his corporeal form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

I'm guessing those are mostly Ultramarine successor chapters. So fine, it doesn't suck to live under the rule of Ultramarines.

 Omegus wrote:


And if we do dismiss the Marty Sue version of the Lion proposed in this thread, and consider the flawed version of the HH novels, now we have a volatile, overly proud leader who has absolutely no political acumen or the ability to read people. Yay.

A Primarch is still better than an idiot bureaucrat/nobleman who got his position by means of either or both wealth and prestigious family. Horus and some of his cohorts position was quite understandable: why the hell should the Imperium be governed by those who do not understand or have never experienced the sacrifices to build it?

Because the Emperor created them to serve humanity, not to supplant it? Now who is being heretical?

Again, the recovery of the Primarchs is literally the worst thing to ever happen to the Imperium. They tainted their Legions with their own personal failings. The Primarchs are very much like the gods of Hellenic/Roman traditions; they are humanity's strengths and flaws exaggerated to a divine scale.

At least the council of the High Lords has the benefit of multiple members that can corral each other's excesses, and have the decency to die after a few centuries to be replaced by fresh blood.

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

I'm guessing those are mostly Ultramarine successor chapters. So fine, it doesn't suck to live under the rule of Ultramarines.

Last I looked, more than half of the Chapters were descended from the Ultramarines.

 Omegus wrote:
Because the Emperor created them to serve humanity, not to supplant it? Now who is being heretical?

I'm not saying I support Horus. I simply understand his/their motivations; the method they chose to correct the situation was wrong, but it was understandable nevertheless. TBH, I've never embraced the post-Heresy Imperium/Imperial Church's ideal of 'Believe! Don't doubt! Don't think!'. They can rot for all I care, because the ideals upon which the Imperium was founded upon were reason, logic, scientific progress and technological certainty, all of which require questioning and thinking.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Source?

 Omegus wrote:

At least the council of the High Lords has the benefit of multiple members that can corral each other's excesses, and have the decency to die after a few centuries to be replaced by fresh blood.

Said 'fresh blood' are still idiot politicians/noblemen with no real claim to power.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

Pfft, Chaos wouldn't even get out of the Segmentum Obscurus before being bogged down by Orks who heard about the big fight going on

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

Pfft, Chaos wouldn't even get out of the Segmentum Obscurus before being bogged down by Orks who heard about the big fight going on

If that's the case, maybe I should get an Ork army for Warhammer 50,000

 KingDeath wrote:

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.

Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

 Omegus wrote:


Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

They could have rebuilt the former; Ultramarines are very tenacious.

Realms of Chaos book. when the emperor dies his soul enters the warp and is reborn as the star child which kills the chaosgods/chaos in the process.

Omegus wrote:Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

I do not think this has to do anything with Matt Ward. The Realm of Ultramar consisting of eight systems is also mentioned in the Index Astartes as well as in the 2E Codex Ultramarines. This has been in the studio fluff for almost 20 years now, and I have not read of any contradiction in GW books so far. Where did you spot them, exactly?

Inhabited worlds within the Realm of Ultramar:

Macragge

Talassar

Quintarn

Tarentus

Masali

Calth

Iax

Espandor

Let's face it, authors in outsourced products just write a lot of stuff when the day is long. This isn't a new phenomenon. In this case, I would presume that Dan Abnett simply did not know where this information could be found. Or he did not care enough to look it up. I mean, we are talking about the very same writer who - from what I've heard by his readers - thinks that Servitors drive Space Marine tanks and act as Navigators, or that all IG lasguns have charge sliders.

Omegus wrote:Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

The fluff from the aforementioned GW sources only mentions one world of Ultramar ever destroyed - Prandium, which was turned into a lifeless rock during the First Tyrannic War.

The setting will never advance. The Imperium being on the verge of destruction suits everyone. IG/SM players can enjoy being part of the huge armoured fist of mankind, while xeno/chaos players are told that their chosen army is just about to destroy mankind. Everyone wins.

If the Imperium collapsed it'd be kind of crappy playing as the guard. Like being Germany in a 1944 scenario of the war.

OT - Seems strange to knock Dan Abnett on fluff. Guy's a professional author (unlike the fluff in codexes), and is insanely popular. He splices grim-dark tragedy with the realism nessesary to have believable charectors. Lay off him

 BryllCream wrote:
The setting will never advance. The Imperium being on the verge of destruction suits everyone. IG/SM players can enjoy being part of the huge armoured fist of mankind, while xeno/chaos players are told that their chosen army is just about to destroy mankind. Everyone wins.

While this is true game/wise fluff wise they will finish it one day, one day when they feel like it.
Besides, several novels and games already have gone good 10 years into M42. GW can also push a little...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I'm not saying I support Horus. I simply understand his/their motivations; the method they chose to correct the situation was wrong, but it was understandable nevertheless. TBH, I've never embraced the post-Heresy Imperium/Imperial Church's ideal of 'Believe! Don't doubt! Don't think!'. They can rot for all I care, because the ideals upon which the Imperium was founded upon were reason, logic, scientific progress and technological certainty, all of which require questioning and thinking.

I love Star Trek but I don't want 40K to be Star Trek. Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

 Hruotland wrote:


Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

I understand that, but then again there already is 30K era for that look and feel. I understand some people liking heresy era stuff, but they can play in the heresy era already; no reason to make 40k like it too. Primarchs, sleek scifi tech (for imperials), reason or sanity just do not belong in 40K.

 Hruotland wrote:

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

THIS. I love 30k and BFG, and I collect BL combat novels, but TBH, I also wish for novels that aren't about crusade this and crisis that, but about Rogue Traders or a Colony Fleet traveling amidst the stars in pursuit of the unknown. There can still be grimdark, like said Rogue Traders and colonists mercilessly wiping out xenos, but I also want Humans to be Humans in a positive fashion.

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There is no such thing!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There does seem to be a bit of grimdark inflation going on. I think the number of human lives that need to be sacrificed to change a lightbulb in the 41st millenium goes up with every new piece of fluff. At some point you just can't suspend disbelief anymore.

 Rainyday wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There does seem to be a bit of grimdark inflation going on. I think the number of human lives that need to be sacrificed to change a lightbulb in the 41st millenium goes up with every new piece of fluff. At some point you just can't suspend disbelief anymore.

My thoughts exactly; grimdark is nice and all, but there's something called 'too much and too little of something'. Look at Warhammer Fantasy; its not noblebright, but it seems to have a classic feel to it that 40k seems to be lacking. And from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) Warhammer Fantasy seems to be going stronger the 40k.

 Omegus wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.

Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

Or we can take the tiny jump in logic and assume that those worlds will become the homeworlds of the second founding Ultramarine successors. With the legion sizes increased by 10, it's reasonable that the number of successors will have been increased significantly as well. The 23 or so the Imperium knows of are only the ones that survived long enough for there to be records of, and whose records weren't lost to time or purged. Remember, the Imperium of M31 was proud to have the complete works of William Shakespeare, all three plays of it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hruotland wrote:

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

THIS. I love 30k and BFG, and I collect BL combat novels, but TBH, I also wish for novels that aren't about crusade this and crisis that, but about Rogue Traders or a Colony Fleet traveling amidst the stars in pursuit of the unknown. There can still be grimdark, like said Rogue Traders and colonists mercilessly wiping out xenos, but I also want Humans to be Humans in a positive fashion.

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


My thoughts exactly; grimdark is nice and all, but there's something called 'too much and too little of something'. Look at Warhammer Fantasy; its not noblebright, but it seems to have a classic feel to it that 40k seems to be lacking. And from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) Warhammer Fantasy seems to be going stronger the 40k.

Well you are wrong. 40K is way more popular.

One cool thing that FB Empire has that Imperium lacks it that they're the underdogs; Chaos is way more threatening in FB, and Empire, while strongest human nation is still a land of normal men with blackpowder and guts of steel against endless hordes of magic an daemon backed supermen. And I can stand heroism by underdogs much better than heroism by shiny superheroes. IG kinda has that same feel, but Space Marines nor Imperium as a whole really don't nor they ever can.

jareddm wrote:

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

That indeed sounds more interesting than usual BL fare.

 Crimson wrote:

jareddm wrote:

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

That indeed sounds more interesting than usual BL fare.

We can agree on that.

EDIT: Thanks for correcting me regarding Warhammer Fantasy. Note that its not that I don't like grimdark, but endless war gets boring after a while. While the Imperium might not capture the 'underdog' feel of the Empire, they could make up for that by introducing and other aspects of medieval-style sci-fi such as space exploration and colonization. Like giving the Rogue Traders and Exploration/Colony Fleets (I'm sure they exist) some more attention.

 Omegus wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Chaos goes with him? What?

The Emperor won't "die" when the throne fails, any more than Magnus died when he gave up his corporeal form.

agian read realms of chaos. the empty shell that sits in the golden throne is the only thing keeping the Emperor from being reborn as the starchild. once the throne fails the body will die and he will be reborn, neutralizing chaos.

how are the empire under dogs? Chaos constantly fights with itself and only "unites" when Fantasy Abaddon shows up only to get smacked down by a much cooler orc character.

 Ninjacommando wrote:


how are the empire under dogs? Chaos constantly fights with itself and only "unites" when Fantasy Abaddon shows up only to get smacked down by a much cooler orc character.

Because they aren't nearly as pre-eminent among their peers like the Imperium is. Despite the doomed fate that awaits it, the Imperium is undoubtedly the dominant power in the galaxy. Not even the Eldar or the Necrons (debatable) are willing to fight the Imperium in a stand-up fight. On the other hand, the Empire is much more easily challenged.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Hahaha, I should have expected that

But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

Every Ork has more personality than Space Marines

But seriously, I recommend reading the Ork Flyboyz comic.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

Every Ork has more personality than Space Marines

But seriously, I recommend reading the Ork Flyboyz comic.

Ooo' did read it (43 kills claimed, 0 comfirmed ), but beside that, are there really any books where orks have peronallity ( without their stereotypical POV ) ?

Also touche about SM....

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

Now if only GW would let that happen. FFG has apparently done good work with Rogue Trader and all, but more is needed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

The 40k RPGs have always been my first stop for non-war material for 40k. Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy seem to have more focus on this, but Black Crusade does a really good job of showing life on numerous chaos controlled worlds. It's not all torture and bloodshed despite what the Imperium believes.

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

You are forgeting that GW sells action figures