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 Galdos wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Inquisition is made up of people who love the Imperium so much they would do whatever it takes to achieve victory, even if it meant making deals with the devil and destroying planets to kill a handful of traitors. They answer to the Emperor and do not care about the High Lords of Terra. No one said they are high minded noble paragons. They are brutal warriors who desire victory at any cost. The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.

Yes, that, or they are scheming, power-hungry Chaos sorcerers who sacrifice entire worlds for their whims. The Primarchs have proven themselves unreliable; the ones that didn't croak, either betrayed the Imperium or abandoned it. If certain people in the Imperium would defy the Emperor (if only covertly) while the Emperor was around, they certainly wouldn't mind doing the same against one of his walking mistakes when he's been dead for 10,000 years.

Your view of the Imperium, or even just plain old humanity, is far too rosy.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

Not according to the people posting in this thread.

 Melissia wrote:


Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone. They aren't infallible either; remember Saint Basilius? Sending all those Astartes into the Eye of Terror for being 'found wanting' in his humble opinion. Too bad they didn't agree when they came back; they crushed his reputation, smashed his relics, and fired his rotting corpse into a star IIRC.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. But the Emperor is stated to have actual FLAWS, both in terms of personality and capability.

You know that Horus Heresy thing? That silly little conflict about marines vs marines while marines and marines marine some marines in their mariney marineholes? He lost, despite all of his massive power and skill-- and now he is a cripple sitting upon the Golden Throne. Even DURING the Great Crusade he showed his many flaws, never mind during the Horus Heresy. The Emperor is a more believable character than your primarch as depicted in this thread.

Meanwhile, the people in this thread? They're acting like your perfectly pleasant priceless pretty precious proud primarch person can never do anything wrong and will always succeed instantly no matter what faces him without being challenged.

Actually @Melissia Lion has flaws...big ones...That's why I love only primarchs who are portrayed as somewhat flawed....

Compared to the idiots on the council, he'd certainly do a better job of pulling the Imperium up from the ashes.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

Idiots, or power hungry egotistical maniacs?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


Compared to the idiots on the council, he'd certainly do a better job of pulling the Imperium up from the ashes.

He did a great job of looking after Caliban .. oh wait

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone.

I never claimed any of them were perfect, unlike the people in this thread making claims about the Lion.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

Idiots, or power hungry egotistical maniacs?

Here in the Philippines, if its government, those two descriptions are one and the same. I don't imagine its any different in 40k from what I'm starting to see.

He did a great job of looking after Caliban .. oh wait

A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yeah, like the 'perfect' saints the Ecclesiarchy and their Word Bearer Mk. IIs aka Sisters of Battle advertise to everyone.

I never claimed any of them were perfect, unlike the people in this thread making claims about the Lion.

I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into. But of course, people automatically argue its better to just let the Imperium go on the way it is rather than changing for the future because its too risky. Idiocy; with risk comes progress.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

And the difference between the Emperor leaving the High Lords in charge and Lion leaving Luthor in charge is? It was also Lions fault for leaving Luthor in charge.

If you have read the HH Dark Angels stories you'll also note that some of the Dark Angels believe that the driving force behind them was in fact Luthor not the Lion.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

Yes because one person can solve all the Imperiums problems.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And the difference between the Emperor leaving the High Lords in charge and Lion leaving Luthor in charge is? It was also Lions fault for leaving Luthor in charge.

Like father like son, if you put it like that

If you have read the HH Dark Angels stories you'll also note that some of the Dark Angels believe that the driving force behind them was in fact Luthor not the Lion.

Some but not all.

Yes because one person can solve all the Imperiums problems.

No...but its a start. Certainly better than just fatalistically maintaining the status quo hoping a fake god-head does something miraculous to solve the situation. Simply put: they want an absolute being to make all the decisions for them. Why not just worship Chaos then?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years and is still going, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with without devastating the Imperium.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with before it could destroy it.

The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation, with victory ultimately going to Chaos. Its a last stand scenario. Its not the worst-case scenario, its the only scenario. I say we take the risk and cede authority to a Primarch.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation

The primarch-ruled Imperium died a fast death due to stupidity, betrayal, stupidity, over-expansion, stupidity, chaos, stupidity, immaturity, and stupidity.

At least the human rulers aren't whining about how their dad doesn't love them enough.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation

The primarch-ruled Imperium died a fast death due to stupidity, betrayal, stupidity, over-expansion, stupidity, chaos, stupidity, immaturity, and stupidity.

At least the human rulers aren't whining about how their dad doesn't love them enough.

No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

EDIT: And the Primarchs never ruled the Imperium. The Primarchs' War Council decided the course of the war, Malcador handled the civilian side of things, and the Emperor oversaw both. Later on, the Warmaster would replace the War Council to command the Imperial war machine under the Emperor, while the Council of Terra governed the Imperium under the Emperor. Primarchs never governed the Imperium, Humans always did (though it can be argued Malcador was a Trans-Human himself).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

They aren't failing.

Despite the fact that the Imperium faces greater enemies now than during the Great Crusade, and despite lacking the "omgwtfbbqgodly heroes" that are the Primarchs, the Imperium is STILL doing better 10,000 years after its start than it was a mere 300 years after the start of the Great Crusade.

The Imperium faces greater dangers than the primarchs did. The primarchs never had to throw back the Tyranid invasion. The primarchs FAILED to throw back their black crusade (see: horus heresy) where Cadia has withstood thirteen. Hell, even the Orks the Imperium faces are bigger, stronger, and better led than during the Great Crusade.

Humanity kicks fething ass. We don't need a failed inhuman "hero".

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No...but failing in their charge to govern responsibly is just as bad.

They aren't failing.

Despite the fact that the Imperium faces greater enemies now than during the Great Crusade, and despite lacking the "omgwtfbbqgodly heroes" that are the Primarchs, the Imperium is STILL doing better 10,000 years after its start than it was a mere 300 years after the start of the Great Crusade.

The Imperium is dying. All they're doing is delaying the inevitable.

The Imperium faces greater dangers than the primarchs did. The primarchs never had to throw back the Tyranid invasion. The primarchs FAILED to throw back their black crusade (see: horus heresy) where Cadia has withstood thirteen. Hell, even the Orks the Imperium faces are bigger, stronger, and better led than during the Great Crusade.

The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

 Melissia wrote:


Humanity kicks fething ass. We don't need a failed inhuman "hero".

Then I guess you don't need the Emperor either. As a Trans-Human who has surpassed Humanity, he's not Human either. You don't Psykers and Navigators either, since they're not Human either: the former are prototype Trans-Humans and the latter are designer Mutants. You don't need Astartes either, since as catch-up Trans-Humans, they're not Human. Good luck with that: no Emperor, no Psykers, no Navigators, and no Astartes. Last stand it is then, with no chance of victory, just go out in a blaze of glory.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

And within a few decades they nearly lost everything that they had gained because of their own incompetence.. The Imperium under humans has lasted for ten thousand years, and despite facing greater enemies than the primarchs ever DREAMED of, it has never suffered a defeat the likes of the Horus Heresy.

Really, the primarchs are probably the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Primarchs conquered half the galaxy. No one apart from Macharius has come close, and no one has surpassed.

And within a few decades they nearly lost everything that they had gained because of their own incompetence.. The Imperium under humans has lasted for ten thousand years, and despite facing greater enemies has never suffered a defeat the likes of the Horus Heresy.

The fact that the Imperium is dying a slow and painful death with no hope of victory under their governance is a defeat greater than the Horus Heresy ever was.

 Melissia wrote:


Really, the primarchs are probably the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium. Under the Imperial Truth, red banners waved and golden eagles flew. Reason. Order. Technological certainty. Salvation from Chaos. A new dawn for Mankind across the stars. Then came the Imperial Church...believe! Don't doubt! Don't think! And so the dream died, and with it, the future...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

The Ecclesiarchy is the only reason that the Imperium survived the complete and utter incompetence of the primarchs, who would have otherwise destroyed it because of their skull-fethed stupidity. It unites the Imperium in a way that none of the primarchs were ever capable of doing.

The primarchs were not capable of saving the Imperium then, they're incapable of saving it now, as well. Only human courage and the might of the Imperial war machine can save the Imperium. And it will be enough.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Incorrect: the Ecclesiarchy is the worst thing that ever happened to the Imperium.

Only human courage and the might of the Imperial war machine can save the Imperium. And it will be enough.

No. It won't. The Imperium is nothing more than a brain-dead body now, and all that's left is to die a glorious end before the Great Enemy consumes all.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. It won't.

It already is.

Where the primarchs failed, humanity has succeeded. It has succeeded through many dark times. People thought it would fail during the Age of Apostasy and yet it pulled through. People thought it would fail during the various Black Crusades but it pulled through. People thought it would fail from the Tyranid swarms, but it pulled through. It will continue to do so despite the fact that it faces threats great than anything the primarchs were capable of overcoming.

In the end, the primarchs are failures, and will never amount to anything more than failures. They will always be such-- for all of their supposed grandeur and skill, the primarchs will always be nothing more than this.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
No. It won't.

It already is.

Where the primarchs failed, humanity has succeeded. It has succeeded through many dark times. People thought it would fail during the Age of Apostasy and yet it pulled through. People thought it would fail during the various Black Crusades but it pulled through. People thought it would fail from the Tyranid swarms, but it pulled through.

In the end, the primarchs are failures, and will never amount to anything more than failures. They will always be such-- for all of their supposed grandeur and skill, the primarchs will always be nothing more than a bunch of failures.

Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium. Your belief in Mankind pulling through is hollow. The future died with the Imperial Truth. All that is left is to go out so brightly that the darkened galaxy will never forget it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium.

Please. GW would never let the Imperium die. That would ruin their franchise.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Hahaha...who is being hopeful and who is being grimdark now? The Imperium will fall. The galaxy will burn. It is inevitable. Because that is the grimdark reality of the 41st Millennium.

Please. GW would never let the Imperium die. That would ruin their franchise.

You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

It was good that the Imperial Truth died as it was built on lies. The Ecclesiarchy and the faith in the God Emperor of mankind is the one unifying thing in the Imperium.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It was good that the Imperial Truth died as it was built on lies. The Ecclesiarchy and the faith in the God Emperor of mankind is the one unifying thing in the Imperium.

So basically replacing one lie with another lie? Nice...I prefer the one with red banners and lots of high-tech stuff rather than the one with frothing and raving madmen who are basically parodies of my religion IRL.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

To be fair, is either of us taking this seriously at this point?

And "the galaxy will burn" has basically been the default state since Horus got a burr in his pants.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You're only saying that because you can't think of a good counter-argument.

You're only saying THAT because you can't think of a good counter argument

Oh...very impressive

Although it would be interesting to see a post-Imperium 40k. Hrm.

Chaos...Tyranids...Dark Eldar...Orks...Necrons. The Eldar and the Tau will be consumed. The galaxy will burn.

To be fair, is either of us taking this seriously at this point?

No, I don't think so. We're just trading flames with each other.

And "the galaxy will burn" has basically been the default state since Horus got a burr in his pants.

Its going to get hotter then