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 Hruotland wrote:


Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

I understand that, but then again there already is 30K era for that look and feel. I understand some people liking heresy era stuff, but they can play in the heresy era already; no reason to make 40k like it too. Primarchs, sleek scifi tech (for imperials), reason or sanity just do not belong in 40K.

 Hruotland wrote:

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

THIS. I love 30k and BFG, and I collect BL combat novels, but TBH, I also wish for novels that aren't about crusade this and crisis that, but about Rogue Traders or a Colony Fleet traveling amidst the stars in pursuit of the unknown. There can still be grimdark, like said Rogue Traders and colonists mercilessly wiping out xenos, but I also want Humans to be Humans in a positive fashion.

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There is no such thing!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There does seem to be a bit of grimdark inflation going on. I think the number of human lives that need to be sacrificed to change a lightbulb in the 41st millenium goes up with every new piece of fluff. At some point you just can't suspend disbelief anymore.

 Rainyday wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
You know, I'm starting to think one reason why 40k is losing fans/players to Warmachine and other TT games is because its too grimdark.

There does seem to be a bit of grimdark inflation going on. I think the number of human lives that need to be sacrificed to change a lightbulb in the 41st millenium goes up with every new piece of fluff. At some point you just can't suspend disbelief anymore.

My thoughts exactly; grimdark is nice and all, but there's something called 'too much and too little of something'. Look at Warhammer Fantasy; its not noblebright, but it seems to have a classic feel to it that 40k seems to be lacking. And from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) Warhammer Fantasy seems to be going stronger the 40k.

 Omegus wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.

Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

Or we can take the tiny jump in logic and assume that those worlds will become the homeworlds of the second founding Ultramarine successors. With the legion sizes increased by 10, it's reasonable that the number of successors will have been increased significantly as well. The 23 or so the Imperium knows of are only the ones that survived long enough for there to be records of, and whose records weren't lost to time or purged. Remember, the Imperium of M31 was proud to have the complete works of William Shakespeare, all three plays of it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hruotland wrote:

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...

THIS. I love 30k and BFG, and I collect BL combat novels, but TBH, I also wish for novels that aren't about crusade this and crisis that, but about Rogue Traders or a Colony Fleet traveling amidst the stars in pursuit of the unknown. There can still be grimdark, like said Rogue Traders and colonists mercilessly wiping out xenos, but I also want Humans to be Humans in a positive fashion.

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


My thoughts exactly; grimdark is nice and all, but there's something called 'too much and too little of something'. Look at Warhammer Fantasy; its not noblebright, but it seems to have a classic feel to it that 40k seems to be lacking. And from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) Warhammer Fantasy seems to be going stronger the 40k.

Well you are wrong. 40K is way more popular.

One cool thing that FB Empire has that Imperium lacks it that they're the underdogs; Chaos is way more threatening in FB, and Empire, while strongest human nation is still a land of normal men with blackpowder and guts of steel against endless hordes of magic an daemon backed supermen. And I can stand heroism by underdogs much better than heroism by shiny superheroes. IG kinda has that same feel, but Space Marines nor Imperium as a whole really don't nor they ever can.

jareddm wrote:

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

That indeed sounds more interesting than usual BL fare.

 Crimson wrote:

jareddm wrote:

ADB has joked that he really wished he could write a love story between the scions of two navigator houses and all the political intrigue that would revolve around it. But that GW would never allow such a book. Personally, I thought the idea sounded awesome.

That indeed sounds more interesting than usual BL fare.

We can agree on that.

EDIT: Thanks for correcting me regarding Warhammer Fantasy. Note that its not that I don't like grimdark, but endless war gets boring after a while. While the Imperium might not capture the 'underdog' feel of the Empire, they could make up for that by introducing and other aspects of medieval-style sci-fi such as space exploration and colonization. Like giving the Rogue Traders and Exploration/Colony Fleets (I'm sure they exist) some more attention.

 Omegus wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Chaos goes with him? What?

The Emperor won't "die" when the throne fails, any more than Magnus died when he gave up his corporeal form.

agian read realms of chaos. the empty shell that sits in the golden throne is the only thing keeping the Emperor from being reborn as the starchild. once the throne fails the body will die and he will be reborn, neutralizing chaos.

how are the empire under dogs? Chaos constantly fights with itself and only "unites" when Fantasy Abaddon shows up only to get smacked down by a much cooler orc character.

 Ninjacommando wrote:


how are the empire under dogs? Chaos constantly fights with itself and only "unites" when Fantasy Abaddon shows up only to get smacked down by a much cooler orc character.

Because they aren't nearly as pre-eminent among their peers like the Imperium is. Despite the doomed fate that awaits it, the Imperium is undoubtedly the dominant power in the galaxy. Not even the Eldar or the Necrons (debatable) are willing to fight the Imperium in a stand-up fight. On the other hand, the Empire is much more easily challenged.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Hahaha, I should have expected that

But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

Every Ork has more personality than Space Marines

But seriously, I recommend reading the Ork Flyboyz comic.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Orks with actual personality?

Every Ork has more personality than Space Marines

But seriously, I recommend reading the Ork Flyboyz comic.

Ooo' did read it (43 kills claimed, 0 comfirmed ), but beside that, are there really any books where orks have peronallity ( without their stereotypical POV ) ?

Also touche about SM....

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

Now if only GW would let that happen. FFG has apparently done good work with Rogue Trader and all, but more is needed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

The 40k RPGs have always been my first stop for non-war material for 40k. Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy seem to have more focus on this, but Black Crusade does a really good job of showing life on numerous chaos controlled worlds. It's not all torture and bloodshed despite what the Imperium believes.

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

You are forgeting that GW sells action figures

jareddm wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

The 40k RPGs have almost been my first stop for non-war material for 40k. Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy seem to have more focus on this, but Black Crusade does a really good job of showing life on numerous chaos controlled worlds. It's not all torture and bloodshed despite what the Imperium believes.

I already have and read Daemon World. By that same logic, and the Gaunt's Ghosts and Cain novels, Imperial worlds aren't all work and prayer either. Seriously BL is more believable when it comes to portraying Imperial society; Humans simply cannot survive individually or collectively with the conditions portrayed in the codices.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

On that I agree. It is obvious that war is in the centre of the attention in the tabletop game fluff, but BL could write more on other aspects of the setting.

You are forgeting that GW sells action figures

But BL sells novels and other literature

^ books about toys + toys = profit

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


I already have and read Daemon World. By that same logic, and the Gaunt's Ghosts and Cain novels, Imperial worlds aren't all work and prayer either. Seriously BL is more believable when it comes to portraying Imperial society; Humans simply cannot survive individually or collectively with the conditions portrayed in the codices.

Going forward, Only War is sure to have more of this, seeing as the humans you face in that particular setting are not chaos followers but secessionists. And having details about their worlds is going to be extremely important for GMs.

No, because there's almost no books from an Ork viewpoint, period.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

The FFG books give a lot of that, but whether or not you consider it canon is another issue.

 Melissia wrote:
No, because there's almost no books from an Ork viewpoint, period.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

The FFG books give a lot of that, but whether or not you consider it canon is another issue.

As long as its GW-affiliated and the story is believable, its fine by me

BryllCream wrote:OT - Seems strange to knock Dan Abnett on fluff. Guy's a professional author (unlike the fluff in codexes), and is insanely popular. He splices grim-dark tragedy with the realism nessesary to have believable charectors. Lay off him

Oh, don't get me wrong, I won't criticise his writing style or his skill as a storyteller! I've purchased his GG omnibus myself. I'm just saying that Dan in particular has a, shall we say, reputation of having his own little version of 40k (I heard the term "Abnettverse" is fairly popular) even moreso than other authors. And given that minor deviations from studio material are rather common in licensed products, that's gotta say something.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. 40k doesn't have a true "canon" (in the sense of one big, consistent background) and some people may actually prefer his take on the setting. I'm just saying that his readers shouldn't be surprised if they stumble over inconsistencies.

On a sidenote, why shouldn't the guys who write the codices not count as professional authors? They're game designers first and foremost, yet ultimately they too write stuff and it sells. Short stories in the codices and issues of White Dwarf as well as products like the Index Astartes even focus on this aspect of their work, and a number of them have begun "branching out" by writing novels for the Black Library now.

The only difference that I see is that the writers of Codex fluff focus on crafting a world just for the world's sake (creating a setting for the players to use), whereas novel authors focus on telling one specific story about one specific hero and wrap the details - including world design - around that. Which occasionally results in things being different just because it serves the plot or makes the read a "more epic" experience. Prime example, Space Marines getting bigger and bigger in the books, so much so that even GW employees started to publicly joke about the trend (Jes Goodwin on the design podcast).

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ books about toys + toys = profit

40k miniatures are toys? I thought they are collectible miniatures, a pieces of art.

For everyone wanting some BL books not about constant war, I really recommend you read Abnett's Eisenhorn and Ravenor books. Fantastic stories about inquisitors, very detective-y.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ books about toys + toys = profit

40k miniatures are toys? I thought they are collectible miniatures, a pieces of art.

No...When you paint them unique way, then they are becoming pieces of art...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
THIS. I love 30k

I find 30k to be incredibly boring, but that could be because I prefer to read about humans or Orks with actual personality, rather than "GRR I'M AN ANGRY MARINE MAN" vs. "GRRRR I'M AN ANGRIER MARINERIER MANLIER MAN!"

Hahaha, I should have expected that

But seriously, 40k background needs to give more attention to non-military stuff. 40k is basically the Holy Roman Empire and its era in space, and there was more to that era than just war and oppression. 40k would be more interesting if those aspects were also incorporated and expanded in the setting.

40k is not the HRE in space at all. The HRE was a fragmented federation of states. The Imperium may allow planets lee-way in how they run things but they wouldn't have the casual wars, heresies and non-participation of the HRE.

 DarthMarko wrote:

No...When you paint them unique way, then they are becoming pieces of art...

Thank the God Emperor... I was scared there for a second.