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Wow, I didn't know that Lion would be so popular...

Anyway, I don;t see any problem with High Lords welcoming Lion back, especially if there are secret helpers of Dark Angels in the Council of Terra itself.

The real problem would start not with the High Lords but with the Ecclesiarchy... He would probably not get the idea that his father is a God very well...

I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Exalted

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That...actually makes sense.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:


I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

This too.

EDIT: I've noticed some people here are disregarding the Horus Heresy series and other BL publications...I've already had this conversation with Manchu before; fan spank aside, BL and FW are both GW-affiliated companies, and therefore, their work is just as 'canon' as GW's own publications.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Exalted

Wait....
I must be in an alternate reality again.
Damn it i killed the wrong person during that last time jump
I knew i shouldn't of Killed Miss Roosevelt

I love this speculation. Would be incredible and not really a step forward! More like adding to the five minutes till midnight feeling!

Melissia wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:[...]

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Have to agree. Deeds would go a long way to make people - quite likely even the High Lords - appreciate him as a capable defender of the Imperium, rather than regard him as a threat to stability.
His leadership could also cleanse the Dark Angels of that dreaded stigma of unreliability, assuming that he wouldn't tolerate shenanigans such as his troops simply withdrawing from a fight or refusing to coordinate with other Imperial forces. I imagine it would take a while, especially since there are so many notable armies pulling off valiant things, but huge campaigns such as Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade are like a furnace where legends are wrought.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I've noticed some people here are disregarding the Horus Heresy series and other BL publications...I've already had this conversation with Manchu before; fan spank aside, BL and FW are both GW-affiliated companies, and therefore, their work is just as 'canon' as GW's own publications.

Unfortunately, all the material being of equal value does not, in far too many cases, make it any more "compatible" to each other...

As it stands now the High Lords would probably try to kill him with the Officio Assassinorum or Inquisition (keep in mind that after the apparent success of killing Kurze, the Officio would boost they can kill a Primarch easily), fearing he'd disrupt the status quo too much. He'd have to be very hush-hush about his return indeed.

People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

DarthMarko wrote:People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....

That could become a problem. That said, apparently he had no problem leaving the reformation of the Imperium to Guilliman and the rest of the Senatorum, returning to Caliban in grief rather than worrying about any political power. Plus, he seems to harbour an enormous hatred for Chaos. I would suspect him to focus entirely on Abaddon and his forces, actually.

DarthMarko wrote:Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

Depends on how you read/interpret GW's fluff. I tend to be sceptical and thus think it is propaganda* ... just like I think the Primarch legends are really just that - legends (although with some truth at their core, just distorted by millennia of oral tradition and exaggeration). Officially, the High Lords basically act as the Emperor's mouthpiece, their task being to interpret his divine will and act accordingly. I'm not sure whether or not the High Lords actually believe this themselves, but I wouldn't put it past them to have long sessions where they meditate on an issue in the hopes of their God-Emperor guiding their thoughts in the Senatorum's decision-making process.

For the Sisterhood, the Codex just mentions that their Founding Saints were invited to an audience before the Golden Throne, which apparently opened their eyes regarding Vandire, prompting their leader to end his reign with a strike of her power sword. The text implies they spoke with/to the Emperor, but again, I'm sceptical and suspect either (a) the Custodes somehow managed to sway their mind with proof of Vandire's evil, (b) they actually were led to a secret meeting with Sebastian Thor, or (c) they were tricked by an elaborate hoax where someone faked the Emperor's voice as if his demi-corpse would be a marionette.

Not that it would matter much, mind you. People grow up "knowing" that the High Lords speak for the Emperor. Why should they doubt it? That's how propaganda works.


*: Yeah, I'm operating on the belief that the Emperor isn't talking to anyone these days. To me, he is like a lobotomised figurehead whose mind is shackled to the singular task of keeping the Astronomican alight, basically acting like a conduit for the Psykers sacrificed to fuel it. I mean, he used to be able to do it by himself, no?

I won't discount the possibility that his spirit is still intact and active enough to have some form of conscience, and even contact various people's minds and guide them via visions like the Ecclesiarchy preaches, but for the time being I will continue to believe that this is all just wishy-washy religious stuff that people are telling themselves and others to make them feel better. More grimdark this way.

@Lynata, ty for the kind answer....

Anytime. I love discussing this sort of stuff.

Oh, for references - the bit about the High Lords is mentioned in the fluff appendix of the 6E rulebook (originating from the Codex Imperialis; they just copypasted the whole article), whereas the audience of Alicia Dominica and her five companions is discussed in the SoB Codex' section on the Age of Apostasy.

I think the HH series gives enough support as to why Lion would gain instant support among the Space Marines, and probably Guard, who actually meet him face to face. The Primarchs are described as having an immediate effect on anyone who lays eyes on them. They are powerful in more than just war, they immediately give off a sense that they should be listened to and they are in charge. Among the Space Marines, who know the legends about the Primarchs, that would be impossible to fake.

I disagree. The Space Marines of 40k are quite a bit different than those of 30k, and none of them actually KNOW him-- know of him, at most... know about him? Outside the Dark Angels, none of them.

When an ancient hero "appears" out of nowhere to try to tell you to commit heresy, it is not as easy a decision as one might think.

I'm in favor of the High Lords, as well as the Ordo Hereticus and probably several other chapters coming down hard on the Dark Angels.

Think of this from the perspective of people who don't know anything about the truth of the HH or of the Lion's whereabouts and have been taught for millenia that the Lion died.long ago. Which is more likely? A primarch returning to life and leading his chapter, as well as 99% of their successors all uniting under his control, or a chapter in the midst of falling to chaos, something with a great deal of precedence, who is being controlled by some demonic being/artifact/whatever that is making them believe it's their primarch? It's a matter of ignorance, suspicion, and miscommunication. Three traits that are core to 40k. Even if the Lion were standing before the attacking army and proclaimed who he was, who's to say it isn't an illusion or some sort of mind controlling sorcery? Again, something with a great deal of precedence.

jareddm wrote:Which is more likely? A primarch returning to life and leading his chapter, as well as 99% of their successors all uniting under his control, or a chapter in the midst of falling to chaos, something with a great deal of precedence, who is being controlled by some demonic being/artifact/whatever that is making them believe it's their primarch?

That is a fairly good point - especially considering the Dark Angels already being treated with suspicion because of their weird behaviour in the ongoing attempt to hide their great secret.

One of the big ironies in 40k fluff, by the way - if they would've come out with the truth right away, I don't think the Imperium would have condemned them.

 DarthMarko wrote:
People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

While the Lion was ambitious he wasn't a complete idiot who would instantly try to usurp the status quo for his own gain

I have no idea if I'm missing sarcasm or something but you know that the fluff for the main part of the13th Black Crusade already happened 10 years ago, right?



Even if you accept that the white dwarf 'endings' are being quietly ignored due to them being pants or they're quietly rewinding time a little to avoid them, it still doesn't involve the Dark Angels running off to Cadia to save the day.

No, they turn back, going to the Caliban star system and wander about there for a while, with not a primarch in sight.

http://www.nickryan.net/articles/arthur.html

This guy claimed to be King Arthur reborn. A legendary hero ~3000 ago, who's veracity is uncertain.Many people don't believe him.

Should the Lion return, what is to stop people thimking the same, especially if egged on by the Ecclesiarchy? His physical presence may be enough to convince people, but the Imperium is a big place...

Furthermore, I daresay the =][= would have some potent questions for the Dark Angels upon his return. "Your primarch has returned, has he? Where has he been all this time? A secret chamber inside the Rock, I see. What else have you got in there? Captured heretics, who were former members of your Chapter? That isn't good. We'll need to interview them. Yes, even that 'Luther' one. And what are these 'Watcher' creatures? You're not sure. Probably xenos. Possibly psykers. Whats to stop them being creatures of Chaos? The fact that they healed the Lion!?! So your mysterious Primarch, suddenly returned, was healed by unknown creatures, and may be corrupted. This isn't good Azrael. Not good at all.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....
So add Lion vs hlot clash for power....

Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

While the Lion was ambitious he wasn't a complete idiot who would instantly try to usurp the status quo for his own gain

Who said anything "instantly" ?

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

There are lots and lots of marines pretending to be Alpharius

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I feel that when the Lion awakes he would call his chapter together and then all the successor chapters. No public announcement, no blazing trumpets.

He would probably have to be briefed by his chapter masters about the current state of the Imperium. It would be very Cloak and Dagger. Eventually he would move out to a designated destination either dispatching the successor chapters to either hold positions or rally support in other imperial forces but trying to keep the news hidden to only the most trusted allies. In the end he would have reveal himself, possibly Cadia, possibly the Ultramar Segmentum (nids) or help out the Blood Angels in their impending battle on Baal against M'Kar the Reborn and the Tyranids, when he revels his identity it would be to what he would feel would be the highest possible effect.

Pretty likely.

How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

^ and then?

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ and then?

Cliff hanger and ... fade to black

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

It truly was the Lion, the Lion of Legend, the Father of the Dark Angels and Emperors Son, his blond hair gently swaying in the recycled palace air, flanked by the legendary Custodes to escort him to the meeting with the High Lords.

Clavicus sat in the darkness, rifle in hand. All to easy he thought to himself as he squeezed the trigger.

Mission Accomplished the message said, all to easy thought the Master of the Administratum as the Palace alarms began to sound.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

Who should give these orders? The carriongod can't even talk these days.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

It truly was the Lion, the Lion of Legend, the Father of the Dark Angels and Emperors Son, his blond hair gently swaying in the recycled palace air, flanked by the legendary Custodes to escort him to the meeting with the High Lords.

Clavicus sat in the darkness, rifle in hand. All to easy he thought to himself as he squeezed the trigger.

Mission Accomplished the message said, all to easy thought the Master of the Administratum as the Palace alarms began to sound.

As Clavicus turned, another blade swung out of the shadows and cut his head off. And the real Lion emerged from the shadows, gazing down at the dead Assassin and his own dead body double, flanked by Custode bodyguards. "Arrest the High Lords immediately. We now have proof of treason."

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


How about after recognising how corrupt the Imperium has become he and his Sons travel to Terra, broadcasting far and wide that a true son of the Emperor has returned. Uncertainty follows and the High Lords blockade Terra not knowing what to expect. As with the Age of Apostasy, the majority of Astartes Chapters stand aside and await the outcome however some answer the call to defend the seat of the Imperium. Agents of the Assassinorum Vanus temple are dispatched to find out the true nature of this Lion but very little is learned and none return.

The Lions fleet arrives in the system, staring down the blockades lances and cannons. The distance grows less and less and tensions run high, communication becomes more frantic and garbled, cease your approach and prepare to be boarded is the most prevalent and seemingly ignored. Still the fleet comes closer and the first shot is fired from the Terran blockade.

Priority orders from the Imperial Palace, overriding both the Inquisition and High Lords: both fleets are to stand down, and Lion is to be escorted by the Custodes to Imperial Palace.

Who should give these orders? The carriongod can't even talk these days.

He did give orders to the Si-I mean, Word Bearers 2.0

Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

If the High Lords really would have a loyal Primarch assassinated, then they're idiots. I'd take a Mary Sue over a bunch of idiot leaders; I get enough of idiotic government IRL, thank you very much.

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD, but yet a Primarch who is designed to be the second most powerful type of human being in the galaxy second to only the Emperor himself manages to pull a few tricks is mary sue fanfiction? Have you forgotten the connection SMs have to their Primarchs through their geneseed?

More like you're the one who's at odds with the fluff.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sounds like a disgusting mary sue fanfiction yet again.

So I guess you have no problem with an Emperor that can guide the entire Imperial Navy through the Warp with his mind, control the indestructible roflstomp force that is the LoTD, but yet a Primarch who is designed to be the second most powerful type of human being in the galaxy second to only the Emperor himself manages to pull a few tricks is mary sue fanfiction? Have you forgotten the connection SMs have to their Primarchs through their geneseed?

More like you're the one who's at odds with the fluff.

Lol

You make a good point, EXALTED!