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 Galdos wrote:

Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

I don't know either. That's what I was originally arguing, but people kept saying they would just kill him because he would be a threat to the status quo and would rather let the Imperium crumble away rather than accept the hope he would represent for the future. Hence, I switched my arguments to the resulting fighting between the council and its forces against the Legiones Astartes, their Primarch(s) and associated forces.

Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Look at how that turned out; Ultramar is the heart of the Ultima Segmentum with arguably more authority over that region than distant Ancient Terra. It is also the best place to live in the galaxy; generally speaking, Astartes realms are. In contrast, realms under the rule of either Mars and Terra are second-rate to say the least compared to Astartes realms. Guilliman wasn't infallible, he even admitted it in Rules of Engagement.

Meh, if the Lion comes back, the we want the Ork equivalent Gork & Mork!

Would be interesting if they did an "Armageddon" and had a massive campaign to decide the fate of Cadia.

I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Then they would just let the Imperium crumble away? Are they that stupid? They may not be paragons, but they are definitely pragmatic. And there's still the Captain-General of the Custodes, who is also a High Lord at times, and may arguably be delivering missives from the Emperor. If the Emperor says Lion or a loyal Primarch takes charge, are they gonna argue? Of course not; the Custodes would summarily execute them for treason.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Look at how that turned out; Ultramar is the heart of the Ultima Segmentum with arguably more authority over that region than distant Ancient Terra. It is also the best place to live in the galaxy; generally speaking, Astartes realms are. In contrast, realms under the rule of either Mars and Terra are second-rate to say the least compared to Astartes realms. Guilliman wasn't infallible, he even admitted it in Rules of Engagement.

Astartes realms are largely feudal or savage worlds where stoneage barbarians brain each other. Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over. The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

 KingDeath wrote:
Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over.

Not according to the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines, which describe Astartes realms as beacons of hope and civilization.

The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

Retconned by the Horus Heresy novels. Not sure which one (I think it was the one involving the Battle of Calth), but Guilliman swore an oath to punish Lorgar by the five hundred worlds of the Realm of Ultramar.

The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about. In some ways, the Primarchs were the Emperor's gravest error.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap. Many Astartes hold the view that they are far superior to regular humans, and that individual lives are insignificant as long as Humanity (with a capital H) prospers (see any number of transhumans, from Huron to the Emperor himself). Many more maintain their home world's Death World status for recruitment, despite being easily able to improve living conditions.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

 Omegus wrote:
The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about.

And if the Emperor says otherwise.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

Not if the council uses its head and sees reason.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap.

Once again, contradicted by the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines.

Would he, though?

And reason has nothing to do with it, it's about power.

5th edition codex is 99% about Ultramarines, and besides the point, it was written by Ward and is thus invalid.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

He wouldn't. At least, not immediately. The resulting organizational nightmare from attempting to reintegrate the legions would be a disaster. In any case, there's no need to in the short term, as the Second Founding Chapters and their Successor Chapters are legions in all but name, the latter holding the former as first among equals.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
Ultramar, one of the few exceptions, was great long before the Ultramarines ( who in fact are good administrators) took over.

Not according to the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines, which describe Astartes realms as beacons of hope and civilization.

Page 10 of the codex mentions that "...many chapters are based on ferral or otherwise deadly worlds".

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:


The heart of Ultima Segmentum is Kar Duniash and not Ultramar ( which contains less than a dozen populated worlds ).

Retconned by the Horus Heresy novels. Not sure which one (I think it was the one involving the Battle of Calth), but Guilliman swore an oath to punish Lorgar by the five hundred worlds of the Realm of Ultramar.

No idea what BL is writing but the current Codex Spacemarines p.14 mentions eight worlds ( systems might be more logical because we know of more than just 8 worlds ).


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 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes.

What would happen if Lion decided to throw the Codex out of the window?

He wouldn't. At least, not immediately. The resulting organizational nightmare from attempting to reintegrate the legions would be a disaster. In any case, there's no need to in the short term, as the Second Founding Chapters and their Successor Chapters are legions in all but name, the latter holding the former as first among equals.

Some do, especialy among the Dark Angels, but certainly not all.

 Omegus wrote:


5th edition codex is 99% about Ultramarines, and besides the point, it was written by Ward and is thus invalid.

Its still GW official, so it is, regardless of fan spank.

So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Yes.

It was from a campaign in 3rd edition IIRC, for special scenarios only... one side would have Loyalist Primarch and the other would have a Chaos Primarch (or Luther) They ran the scenarios at GW stores, I didn't play in them because I played DE.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

And the Lion would sit around, twiddling his thumbs waiting for his place in the Imperium be decided by bureaucrats and pen pushers?

I'm with the people that believes that a Primarch returning would not be a good thing and if it did happen, I believe that it would not be as rosy as you think ser

A couple of the more recent posts here seem to be coloured not just by Astartes-favouritism but outright dislike of core aspects of the "current" Imperium, foremost its most important organisations (minus the AdMech; I'm continuously amazed why only one of the two superstitious backwards and oppressive cults attracts such a strong reaction).

The Ultramarines controlling an entire segmentum?
And all Marines just siding with the Dark Angels and waging war against 99% of the Imperium "just like that", at a time where it is already under siege - basically stabbing humanity in the back?
And Cadia just conveniently "forgetting" centuries of Munitorum propaganda and Ministorum education? And the millions of troops from all across the galaxy that have been sent there just happily playing along?

Nope. Just nope. That reads like an array of bad fan-fiction where things just happen to fall into place in a way that suits the titular hero. I don't even know what the Dark Angels are supposed to achieve at Cadia that nobody else could, with or without a Primarch. But I suppose that is largely because I see the Primarchs as quite vulnerable and fallible rather than some sort of invincible demigod (like I hear they may be presented in certain novels), so it may just be that it's not "my" grimdark 40k that is being discussed here.

If Jonson ever wakes from his slumber - and I don't see this subject being touched by GW anytime soon - he will certainly be treated like a saint by most common people and Marines, yet him falling in battle would have an incredible backlash on the recently boosted morale that any fight he joins will be a huge risk to the Imperium. So much so that should he die, the knowledge of this would certainly be suppressed. Consider that on qutie a number of worlds, people grow up on stories about the Primarchs - legends that are just treated as fact by the IoM at large. Jonson's final sacrifice would call them all into question.

I could actually see the High Lords try to turn him into a pencil pusher. In this sense, a seat on the Senatorum might be a really good idea, provided that this close circle can accept a "newcomer" who is completely unfamiliar with the political game handling such power.

Either way, any sort of civil war even as Abbadon's 13th Crusade is still ongoing would break the Imperium's back, and with it the frail remains of hope left for humanity as a faction amongst the stars.

Red Viper: Thanks! That's an awesome image. Never heard of this scenario - they should've put that into a WD

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So the UM, and all other Codex chapters would be happy that their Lords doctrine be dropped eventually for the Lions new improved formula?

Reforming Legions would probably make some of the smaller, original ones upset as well. I don't think the likes of the Wolves would be happy if the Dark Angels were reformed in all their glory with their numbers paling in comparison.

As I said, they wouldn't do it in the short-term. And long-term in the Imperium means centuries at least. Lots of things could change in that time.

Why should they? The Legions as a concept failed while the chapter system has served the Imperium for 10000 years.

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Inquisition is made up of people who love the Imperium so much they would do whatever it takes to achieve victory, even if it meant making deals with the devil and destroying planets to kill a handful of traitors. They answer to the Emperor and do not care about the High Lords of Terra. No one said they are high minded noble paragons. They are brutal warriors who desire victory at any cost. The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.


The High Lords of Terra are an interesting bunch, there is no sign in either direction if they are horribly corrupt or they are simply trying to defend humanity no matter the cost. No one would argue they are Paragons though. However no High Lord would EVER be dumb enough to defy the Emperor. The others would murder him in a heartbeat. Defying a Primarch is defying the Emperor.





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 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Yes all that is true which means what?

The Lion doesnt care about ruling the Imperium, he wants to defeat the enemies of Hummanity. Also Primarchs are still considered near divine beings in the eyes of the Imperium.

 Red Viper wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

Yes.
It was from a campaign in 3rd edition IIRC, for special scenarios only... one side would have Loyalist Primarch and the other would have a Chaos Primarch (or Luther) They ran the scenarios at GW stores, I didn't play in them because I played DE.

Forge World is tackling the Horus Heresy. HH1: Betrayal came out last year, and covered the Isstvaan III incident. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim were given stats. FW has also said that they'll be doing stats and a model for the Emperor, eventually.

HH2 and 3 will cover the drop site massacre. No other books have been announced, yet.

They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.

If the High Lords were at odds with a Primarch masses of the basic peoples would rally to the Primarchs side.


Thats why I think the High Lords wouldn't dare oppose a primarch returning.

 kronk wrote:
They're making an entire line of models to support it, including Primarchs.

Yeah, it sucks, but that's life.

 Galdos wrote:
Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium.

Because they aren't actually paying attention and instead just throwing around rampant rumormongering so that they can look cool.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.

The overwhelming majority of the population has no clue what a primarch IS, never mind what one LOOKS like. Except for maybe they'd know what Sanguinius looks like, and even then they'd only know from the statues-- Sanguinius being the only one who was sainted. There's no telling how [in]accurate the average statue of him is.

For all they know, the primarch could be some random heretic with way too many mutations and the Imperium is right in opposing them. If primarchs ARE known about by the population, then I find the idea that no one has tried to masquerade as a primarch for political gain in ten thousand years to be even more ridiculous.

 Omegus wrote:
The Custodes would probably hold little regard for a Primarch busting in and throwing orders about. In some ways, the Primarchs were the Emperor's gravest error.

It could be argued that a Primarch's return would destroy the Imperium, by creating a schism where some back him, others think he's a fraud, and yet others take advantage of the chaos to secede.

And Ultramar aside, the notion that living in an Astartes-controlled realm is better is utter crap. Many Astartes hold the view that they are far superior to regular humans, and that individual lives are insignificant as long as Humanity (with a capital H) prospers (see any number of transhumans, from Huron to the Emperor himself). Many more maintain their home world's Death World status for recruitment, despite being easily able to improve living conditions.

Ya the Custodes hold the Emperor above all. That just means they dont take orders from anyone but the Emperor. The Lion isnt going to try and conquer the Imperium, all he is going to do is take command of the armies of the Imperium at Cadia. Also the Emperor is techincally still alive, he maybe able to speak up and tell the Custodes to listen to the Lion though i doubt it.


What schism is this going to create? Who would DARE SIDE AGAINST A PRIMARCH!? The Imperial Guard, Navy, and Space Marines would support the Lion in fething mass. The Inquisition would also. The Church would also. The Mechanicum couldnt give a damn either way. The Assassins and Custodes could give two gaks about a Primarch returning. Who is left to side against a Primarch? Also Primarchs were charismatic as all hell, simply looking at a Primarch could cow a person. Once a person sees him they are going to believe. Everyone knows that the Lion isnt dead and he is said that one day he will return so this would just seem like a prophecy is coming true. Stranger gak has happened in the Imperium that everyone accepts (Living Saints)

Also the fluff clearly states that the Astartes controlled realms are great places. This is because they keep corruption down (do not read they prevent) because no one is going to try and cheat the system with Space Marines within spitting distance. Even if the Space Marines dont care about humanity, the very presence is enough to help assure that leaders are more likely to be at least competant than otherwise. Are you willing going to say that Astrates-realms are LESSER than realms with non-Space Marines found in them?

Also remember the Lion has no interest in being a High Lord of Terra, they are all going to keep their positions if they support the Primarch.

Galdos wrote:The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.

The funny thing is that the High Lords also represent the will of the Emperor. They just have more political pull with all the major Imperial organisations.

You know, they could simply claim he's a traitor and wants to start a second Heresy.

Grey Templar wrote:If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.
If the High Lords were at odds with a Primarch masses of the basic peoples would rally to the Primarchs side.
Thats why I think the High Lords wouldn't dare oppose a primarch returning.

The masses of the basic people will do what their Preachers and Confessors tell them. Who in turn do what the Ecclesiarch tells them. Who will do what the Council of High Lords votes on.

A Primarch may play a huge role in various legends and epic tales of folklore, but they could be dismantled pretty fast if Imperial propaganda is dedicated to do so. Unlike the Imperium of Man, a lone Primarch climbing out of the mobile fortress of one of the most reclusive Chapters of the independent-minded and loosely affiliated Adeptus Astartes will not have much in terms of contacts he could rely on to do stuff like, you know, even reaching the ears of the "masses of the basic people", much less turn them to his side. It's not like the IoM has some sort of internet where Jonson could just go online and post crazy conspiracy theories on a public platform, calling upon activists to raise up against "the establishment".

Galdos wrote:Who would DARE SIDE AGAINST A PRIMARCH!? The Imperial Guard, Navy, and Space Marines would support the Lion in fething mass. The Inquisition would also. The Church would also.

I'm gonna keep this short: Why?

I'm not saying that the High Lords of Terra would oppose a returning primarch, just that the primarchs don't have anywhere near as much support as some people seem to claim in the modern-- that is, 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy-- Imperium.

 Galdos wrote:
Defying a Primarch is defying the Emperor.

...

That is just an absurd thing to say.

But I seem to be totally out of sync how most people here want 40K to be. I want it to be like Sin City comic, not Superman, a Terry Gilliam film rather than Michael Bay film. People seem to want hope and superheroes, that just isn't the 40K I love.

Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.