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Post imperium 40k is orks, eldar, necrons, and nids everthing thing else pretty much auto dies/gets eaten.

Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Is this the right time to dredge up the old "DA is secretly chaos" theory? Because the most hilarious outcome of all this would be the Lion rolling up to Cadia, brofisting Abbadon, and burning the planet to the ground while GW throws up their hands and says "What? You said you wanted another chaos marine codex."

Emperors death = star child = chaos dies = those in the physical realm fight one last battle for control of the universe.

I dunno, I don't feel a ragnarok/apocalypse/etc is really that suitable for 40k.

After all, in 40k, there is only war. Even after war, there's still only war.

 Rainyday wrote:
Is this the right time to dredge up the old "DA is secretly chaos" theory? Because the most hilarious outcome of all this would be the Lion rolling up to Cadia, brofisting Abbadon, and burning the planet to the ground while GW throws up their hands and says "What? You said you wanted another chaos marine codex."

Sir, you made my day. That would be totally awesome... I'm a DA player but my loyalty goes to the Lion, not to the Imperium so It would be totally feasible...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


The fact that the Imperium is dying a slow and painful death with no hope of victory under their governance is a defeat greater than the Horus Heresy ever was.

Probably.

Imperium is a crumbling dystopian tyranny, ruled by corrupt despots. And this is awesome.

I do not care if a Primarch rule would be objectively better. I do not want things to get better! Everyone of course has a right to their opinion, but there are many people in this thread that would totally destroy things that make 40K cool for me if they had their way.

Alright, to hell with you all, the best thing to happen to the Imperium and whatever is holding it together is Krieg and its Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

Bobthehero wrote:Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

My mind just auto-conjured an image of 8-bit pixel Guardsmen running across a two-dimensional battlefield, whilst the player is putting down trenches, ladders and Commissars. "How many Krieg Guardsmen can you guide into the breach?"

Somebody turn this into a game!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I never said he was perfect either, just someone who could pull the Imperium out of the mess its in and is sinking even deeper into.

The Imperium is doing better under human rule than under primarch rule. The primarch-ruled Imperium lasted about 200 years before dissolving in to massive, highly destructive civil war. The human-ruled Imperium has lasted 10,000 years, and even when civil war DID wrack the Imperium 5000 or so years in to its existence in the Age of Apostasy, it was dealt with before it could destroy it.

The Human-ruled Imperium is doomed to die a slow and painful death by stagnation, with victory ultimately going to Chaos. Its a last stand scenario. Its not the worst-case scenario, its the only scenario. I say we take the risk and cede authority to a Primarch.

Human leaders have long since proven that they are better than primarchs when it comes to ruling the Imperium.

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.
That the current Imperium is doomed to a slow death is true. This is still more impressive than the Imperium ruled by the idiot emperor and his children which lasted for less than 300 years before it collapsed into anarchy and terror. Guillaume, because he actualy seemed to posess a brain, learned from the mistake of his father and made sure that all power in the Imperium is ultimately split.
This practice has preserved the Imperium for 10000 years, despite it's structural weaknesses the ever present threat of corruption and opponents which exceed everything the Great Crusade has witnessed.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Alright, to hell with you all, the best thing to happen to the Imperium and whatever is holding it together is Krieg and its Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

Amen Brother.

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar is pretty much the only one; they don't see the need to recruit savages from deathworlds like most of the other Chapters (Wolves, Blood Angels, etc).

Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

A fair point, but then again, he left Caliban under Luther while he personally led the First Legion. So it was Luther's fault ultimately, as the First Legion did quite well during crusade operations under the Lion.

They did quite alright without him, too, considering he led it for only the last 50 years or so of the Crusade.

And if we do dismiss the Marty Sue version of the Lion proposed in this thread, and consider the flawed version of the HH novels, now we have a volatile, overly proud leader who has absolutely no political acumen or the ability to read people. Yay.

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Funny...Ultramar - all five hundred worlds and forming the heart of Ultima Segmentum - and most Astartes realms are always better off than many other Imperial worlds.

Ultramar is pretty much the only one; they don't see the need to recruit savages from deathworlds like most of the other Chapters (Wolves, Blood Angels, etc).

The Chapter Master entry of Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition says otherwise.

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Chaos goes with him? What?

The Emperor won't "die" when the throne fails, any more than Magnus died when he gave up his corporeal form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

I'm guessing those are mostly Ultramarine successor chapters. So fine, it doesn't suck to live under the rule of Ultramarines.

 Omegus wrote:


And if we do dismiss the Marty Sue version of the Lion proposed in this thread, and consider the flawed version of the HH novels, now we have a volatile, overly proud leader who has absolutely no political acumen or the ability to read people. Yay.

A Primarch is still better than an idiot bureaucrat/nobleman who got his position by means of either or both wealth and prestigious family. Horus and some of his cohorts position was quite understandable: why the hell should the Imperium be governed by those who do not understand or have never experienced the sacrifices to build it?

Because the Emperor created them to serve humanity, not to supplant it? Now who is being heretical?

Again, the recovery of the Primarchs is literally the worst thing to ever happen to the Imperium. They tainted their Legions with their own personal failings. The Primarchs are very much like the gods of Hellenic/Roman traditions; they are humanity's strengths and flaws exaggerated to a divine scale.

At least the council of the High Lords has the benefit of multiple members that can corral each other's excesses, and have the decency to die after a few centuries to be replaced by fresh blood.

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition p. 52 wrote:
Indeed, most Chapter Masters rule entire worlds, systems or sub-sectors of space in the Emperor's name. Such places are zones of relative prosperity and stability in a galaxy riven by war, their formidable defenses buttressed by the might of a Space Marine Chapter and the patronage of its Master.

I'm guessing those are mostly Ultramarine successor chapters. So fine, it doesn't suck to live under the rule of Ultramarines.

Last I looked, more than half of the Chapters were descended from the Ultramarines.

 Omegus wrote:
Because the Emperor created them to serve humanity, not to supplant it? Now who is being heretical?

I'm not saying I support Horus. I simply understand his/their motivations; the method they chose to correct the situation was wrong, but it was understandable nevertheless. TBH, I've never embraced the post-Heresy Imperium/Imperial Church's ideal of 'Believe! Don't doubt! Don't think!'. They can rot for all I care, because the ideals upon which the Imperium was founded upon were reason, logic, scientific progress and technological certainty, all of which require questioning and thinking.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Again when the emperor dies chaos goes with him. and the emperor will die when the golden throne fails, which it is already failing.

Source?

 Omegus wrote:

At least the council of the High Lords has the benefit of multiple members that can corral each other's excesses, and have the decency to die after a few centuries to be replaced by fresh blood.

Said 'fresh blood' are still idiot politicians/noblemen with no real claim to power.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

Pfft, Chaos wouldn't even get out of the Segmentum Obscurus before being bogged down by Orks who heard about the big fight going on

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well it depends. There would likely be human civilizations ruling the shards of what used to be the Imperium. Chaos ruling near the Eye of Terror, the Ecclesiarchy ruling near Ophelia, the Astartes ruling near their homeworlds and especially Ultramar, etc.

It could be quite an interesting setting to see Warhammer 50,000 as a post-apocalyptic setting.

Assuming Chaos doesn't consume everything, yeah, that's an accurate prediction. Just like the Old Night, some advanced Human civilizations here and there, but most others will just regress or be destroyed.

Pfft, Chaos wouldn't even get out of the Segmentum Obscurus before being bogged down by Orks who heard about the big fight going on

If that's the case, maybe I should get an Ork army for Warhammer 50,000

 KingDeath wrote:

Ultramar has eight systems. This is written in the current Spacemarine Codex at page 14.
The author who wrote Know no Fear either believes that all of these eight solar systems have at least 60 inhabitable planets, which is extremely unlikely even for the 40k galaxy, or he simply made a mistake.

Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

 Omegus wrote:


Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

They could have rebuilt the former; Ultramarines are very tenacious.

Realms of Chaos book. when the emperor dies his soul enters the warp and is reborn as the star child which kills the chaosgods/chaos in the process.

Omegus wrote:Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

I do not think this has to do anything with Matt Ward. The Realm of Ultramar consisting of eight systems is also mentioned in the Index Astartes as well as in the 2E Codex Ultramarines. This has been in the studio fluff for almost 20 years now, and I have not read of any contradiction in GW books so far. Where did you spot them, exactly?

Inhabited worlds within the Realm of Ultramar:

Macragge

Talassar

Quintarn

Tarentus

Masali

Calth

Iax

Espandor

Let's face it, authors in outsourced products just write a lot of stuff when the day is long. This isn't a new phenomenon. In this case, I would presume that Dan Abnett simply did not know where this information could be found. Or he did not care enough to look it up. I mean, we are talking about the very same writer who - from what I've heard by his readers - thinks that Servitors drive Space Marine tanks and act as Navigators, or that all IG lasguns have charge sliders.

Omegus wrote:Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

The fluff from the aforementioned GW sources only mentions one world of Ultramar ever destroyed - Prandium, which was turned into a lifeless rock during the First Tyrannic War.

The setting will never advance. The Imperium being on the verge of destruction suits everyone. IG/SM players can enjoy being part of the huge armoured fist of mankind, while xeno/chaos players are told that their chosen army is just about to destroy mankind. Everyone wins.

If the Imperium collapsed it'd be kind of crappy playing as the guard. Like being Germany in a 1944 scenario of the war.

OT - Seems strange to knock Dan Abnett on fluff. Guy's a professional author (unlike the fluff in codexes), and is insanely popular. He splices grim-dark tragedy with the realism nessesary to have believable charectors. Lay off him

 BryllCream wrote:
The setting will never advance. The Imperium being on the verge of destruction suits everyone. IG/SM players can enjoy being part of the huge armoured fist of mankind, while xeno/chaos players are told that their chosen army is just about to destroy mankind. Everyone wins.

While this is true game/wise fluff wise they will finish it one day, one day when they feel like it.
Besides, several novels and games already have gone good 10 years into M42. GW can also push a little...

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I'm not saying I support Horus. I simply understand his/their motivations; the method they chose to correct the situation was wrong, but it was understandable nevertheless. TBH, I've never embraced the post-Heresy Imperium/Imperial Church's ideal of 'Believe! Don't doubt! Don't think!'. They can rot for all I care, because the ideals upon which the Imperium was founded upon were reason, logic, scientific progress and technological certainty, all of which require questioning and thinking.

I love Star Trek but I don't want 40K to be Star Trek. Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Seriously, I do not get why so many people want to get rid of the defining aspects of 40K setting, things that make it unique and interesting.

Because we like our grimdark SciFi more Sci Fi less grimdark. Sure, those grimdark defining aspects were there in the early days, but that SciFi feeling gets lost more and more. Now that the fluff is defined and re-fined more with every novel, there is not so much room for guys like me who dream of colony dropships on desert planets and industrial architecture not gothic cathedrals. Personally I can live with all that stuff about the rotten empire and its inhabitants, but somwhere in this whole wide galaxy there must be space for some mining colonies on red desert planets and not one arched and pillared facade with gargoyles on top anywhere...