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 nolzur wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

*cough* good luck to them.
Let us not forget he would probably kill all the assassins sent after him. He was also very paranoid.

Indeed, the return of a Primarch would instigate change whether the imperium wanted it or not. The AdMech and High Lords would be mad, the Ecclesiarchy, too. But the loyalist marine chapters, I think they'd be more inclined to listen to what a Primarch has to say. That would force change on its' own, but any direct attack on Lion could split the Imperium in half, and they'd know that, so I doubt it would come to civil war.

 Galdos wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

This bit of fluff has been around for a long time. Just not as publically displayed.

Meh, I was hoping for GW stats, actually - like Angron's here. I have a feeling FW will try to stick close to the novels. :/

 Grey Templar wrote:


This bit of fluff has been around for a long time. Just not as publically displayed.

It's been in every Codex Dark Angels and Codex Angels of Death. Can't get much more public than that.

It's just that dumbasses on the internet like to ignore things. For example, you can probably find 20 threads in this very forum wondering what the secret of the Dark Angels is, when every single codex states clearly about the Fallen.

 Lynata wrote:

By the way ... did the new DA 'dex use this wording, by any chance?
"Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside the secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."
That's taken from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death ... GW has been digging up a lot of old material lately; entire pages of the fluff in the 6E rulebook have been ripped straight out of the Codex Imperialis.

Extended and accented:

Buried yet deeper within the Rock, hidden in its innermost chamber,
is the final, greatest secret of the Dark Angels.
Only one person in the galaxy knows the full truth - the Emperor.
Even in his living entombment upon the Golden Throne, even though
the sunken orbits of his skull no longer have eyes, the Emperor still
sees much. Hidden inside a secluded chamber at the heart of what
was once the planet of Caliban, unreachable by all save the cryptic
Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies
sleeping. There he slumbers, his wounds long-healed, waiting for that
time when he will be needed once again, when the clarion call of battle
sounds for the last time, summoning him to once again defend the
Imperium of Mankind against its enemies.

Hmmh, I see! So, still sleeping, but they clarified he's fully healed now. Kind of sounds like he may just have been accidentally (or intentionally?) forgotten there...

... or perhaps that his Chapter's leaders don't dare to wake him up, simultaneously risking to lose him forever if he gets killed in some random battle. By this time, something like a Primarch may appear to some like a trump card you're supposed to play only once, and only when you really need it, hence the bit about a hypothetical "last battle".

Or am I reading too much into this?

Anyways, thanks for the full quote!

If the Lion was to awaken and be given rules, it would probally mean that every army is going to get some super awsome guy to rally them. Im not against that one bit as id like to see some of these. Fluff wise The Lion awakening would cause a resurgence in the strength of the IoM possibly. It could also split it in two. Furthermore I wouldnt be surprised if all the succesor chapters and the DA were reforged into a single legion by the Lion. If he does come back for this "final battle" and it means the end times have begun. Then we may also see Vulkan and Leman Russ. As well as many of the Chaos Primarchs. Question is who would come into play for people like the Eldar and Tau to keep the feel of 40K.

The Tau already have their primarch equivalent.

His name is La'Kais.

Oh god, no, do not bring primarchs back! People can play them in Horus Heresy, if they absolutely have to.

 nolzur wrote:



I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed be.

You understand how crazy this sounds dont you?


The Imperium heres that one of the greatest beings ever to walk the planet has returned, one of the God-Emperor's sons has returned to defend the Imperium. Than the news comes out that the son has been killed (pretending they did it in secret perfectly) Ya the Imperium is going to collapse on itself at this crazy 180.

However lets face it, this is a Primarch, the last thing the High Lords want is for a rumor to get out that they tried to kill a Primarch.

 Galdos wrote:

However lets face it, this is a Primarch, the last thing the High Lords want is for a rumor to get out that they tried to kill a Primarch.

No, last thing the High Lords want is a Primarch to usurp their power.

 nolzur wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If the High Lords already have a 'soft spot' for the Dark Angels, it wouldn't be too hard for them to make room on the council for the Lion to serve as Guilliman's successor as Lord Commander of the Imperium, and I'm sure they'd be open to his suggestions and recommendations, given the Imperium's desperate situation and even more so if he turns the tide at Cadia.

Lion elJonson comes from a time when the Emperor was still alive.

- This puts a target on his back and an enormous price on his head by both the mechanicus and the high lords.

I can pretty much guarantee that the high lords of terra would not be at all open to the Lion's suggestions. In fact, they would probably try to have him killed before he could spread around the info that the Emperor is not a god, and never wanted toe imperium to go the way it has. The Lion would explain about computers, and how machines are not full of "spirits" and how the machines and the Emperor should not be worshiped.

Lion ain't stupid though. I doubt he'd do anything so crazy as put a stop on Emperor-worship that'd probably cause the Imperium to crumble from the inside (as much as I wish someone would do that). Not to mention, they did venerate Machine Spirits back in the day too. Only the focus was more on understanding and reclamation rather than rote memorization.

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

 Crimson wrote:



No, last thing the High Lords want is a Primarch to usurp their power.

Who said anything about usurpation? The Lord Commander of the Imperium is a member of the Council of the High Lords of Terra, the last one to hold said position being Roboutte Guilliman.

Well, they would have to invite him. There is no such thing as a "Lord Commander of the Imperium" as a permanent seat on the Senatorum, so it really comes down to how much the High Lords are able to play ball - aka if they'd feel duty-bound to seek aid and surrender bits of their influence, or if they'd go all "nnnoooooo it's miiiinnnneeee!"

Without knowing the current High Lords better, I cannot say what situation I'd predict, but both scenarios are possible, imho.

 Lynata wrote:
Well, they would have to invite him. There is no such thing as a "Lord Commander of the Imperium" as a permanent seat on the Senatorum, so it really comes down to how much the High Lords are able to play ball - aka if they'd feel duty-bound to seek aid and surrender bits of their influence, or if they'd go all "nnnoooooo it's miiiinnnneeee!"

Without knowing the current High Lords better, I cannot say what situation I'd predict, but both scenarios are possible, imho.

Knowing Lion and his code of chivalry as a knight, he would never claim a seat on the council himself, and I'm reasonably certain such an act of humility would probably convince the High Lords to issue an invitation. And considering that the Captain-General of the Custodes is also a High Lord himself, the Emperor (through the Captain-General) might just nudge the council to make such a move. Though I am certain Lion would claim (and would get) overall command over the defense of Cadia and the surrounding sectors against Abaddon the Despoiler's 13th Black Crusade.

The Lion has been sitting in the Rock waiting for the final battle since the original version of this fluff (and really, the entire fluff section is a direct copy&paste of the Angels of Death fluff).

 Omegus wrote:
The Lion has been sitting in the Rock waiting for the final battle since the original version of this fluff (and really, the entire fluff section is a direct copy&paste of the Angels of Death fluff).

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

Right, like the Inqusition isn't maintaining the status quo of the Emperor to prevent the power schism his return would create.

So, usurper vs hlot?
I'm just wondering how many chapter's would go with Lion and how many with old gits....

 Omegus wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Basically, the Lion could end the reign of the high lords, and restart the age of technology - this would not work for the high lords or the adeptus mechanicus, so both would be trying their best to end him if he did re-emerge.

They aren't stupid either. Killing a loyal Primarch with the Imperium already tottering at the brink of destruction, the Golden Throne failing, and the enemies of man popping up left and right? Unlikely; they'd be begging for him to turn the situation around.

Right, like the Inqusition isn't maintaining the status quo of the Emperor to prevent the power schism his return would create.

So just let the Imperium crumble away? Fine by me; last stands are stupid, but if the Emperor dies and the Imperium falls apart because those idiotic bureaucrats assassinated the loyal Primarchs to maintain a self-destructive status quo, I might as well turn my fleets' guns on the nearest Administratum/Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition stronghold before heading to Ultramar; at least the Ultramarines and Astartes in general know how to do things right. If we're going out in a blaze of glory, I'm not doing it fighting alongside some fat, greedy, and probably inbred and stupid nobleman or bureaucrat.

 DarthMarko wrote:
So, usurper vs hlot?
I'm just wondering how many chapter's would go with Lion and how many with old gits....

Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and White Scars Legiones Astartes (where Space Wolves go, White Scars will follow) for starters. The Ultramarines would follow once Lion's identity is confirmed. And once the Ultramarines move, the remaining Legiones Astartes will follow. If the Dark Angels turn the tide at Cadia, the Imperial forces there will side with the Legiones Astartes as well. The Grey Knights might side with the Inquisition and those damned bureaucrats, but Thousand Son-wannabes will fare even worse against the Rout.

UM are the biggest question....
Or:
-Lion awakes
-sees the IoM
-returns to stasis (on his own accord)

 DarthMarko wrote:
UM are the biggest question....

If Lion's identity can be proven as true, they will side with their fellow Legiones Astartes. But I believe they will: those damned bureaucrats are greedy and honorless scum, and once the Ultramarines show signs of hesitating or trying to be impartial, they'll try to force them to side with the council by some sort of underhanded tactic or strategy. Ultramarines hold honor and duty to the Emperor above everything else; the council will just end up pushing the XIII Legion against them. Once the XIII Legion is committed, all the Legiones Astartes will be as well, and with the Ultramarines will come all of Ultima Segmentum (to the people there, Ultramar is a much greater source of hope and security than distant Terra and the council).

Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, SM's, boring, if they rebel they'll be squashed by whatever loyalist IG there are, through sheer number, no way that little million (and less actually, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Grey Knights will likely stick with the Inquisition), Yes there will be IG that will join the SM, but the Inquisition holds far more power.

Assuming they don't get to Terra first. Basic strategy is always to crush the enemy leadership first. Once the old council is dead, and Lion (or any other Primarch) has taken control of the new one (no one can replace the Emperor), the second inter-legionary conflict will be over. The Age of the High Lords will be over as well, and finally, the Imperium will change for the better.

As for numbers, Ultima Segmentum is de facto under the authority of the Ultramarines; Ultramar has basically more authority by sheer proximity and military influence than distant Ancient Terra. And Ultima Segmentum is the largest segmentum of them all, and is logically the most vital resource and manpower source for the Imperium. With the Legiones Astartes controlling it, the council loses the advantage of numbers.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

Some of us really do not want GW to move the story anywhere, especially to any direction that involves Primarchs. I prefer Imperium to be crumbling, its glory days well past it, its leaders corrupt and paranoid and Primarchs being just distant legends.

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Yeah, but discussing what would happen if he actually woke up is more fun than just conceding defeat to GW's obstinate refusal to move the story forward.

Some of us really do not want GW to move the story anywhere, especially to any direction that involves Primarchs. I prefer Imperium to be crumbling, its glory days well past it, its leaders corrupt and paranoid and Primarchs being just distant legends.

Some of us want it to move forward though; don't get me wrong, I like BFG, but I like the idea of starting over/rebuilding even better.

 Galdos wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
-

-Lion is alive and he is sleping in the Rock, he is also healed and ready for battle. The Rock is moving trough Imperium and the latest report stated that the Rock is heading to Cadia to counter the Abbadoon's 13'th Black Crusade. Azrael also called for Dark Angels Successor Chapters to aid him and probably all of them responded witch brings Dark Angels alone to some 10.000 Mairnes. Giving that in Chaos 6'th edition codex there are rumors about Chaos Primarchs going to Cadia and in Dark Angels 6'th edition we have Rock with Lion in itself going toward Cadia too is it possible that GW is planing the beginning of the end? To finally start to finish the story of Warhammer 40.000?

So what do you think?

*finds all of them interesting. Reads about the Lion and feels the need to post the meme of the stick figure spitting out his cerial*

seriously? Thats fething awsome. I actually love that.

Its molds in nicely with what I have been arguring for a while, have Chaos win a massive victory, but right before Cadia is lost, the Lion comes in and turns the tide saving Cadia and granting the Imperium breathing room (note I meant for me, not for the setting as a whole, this is my personal fluff here)

With the Lion back the Imperium can start perform well on all fronts in the war having a loyal Primarch return and all. I actually love this

The Lion's presence within the Rock has been canon since Codex:Angels of Death back in 2nd edition.

I sort of like the idea of him coming back, taking control of all Imperial forces at Cadia and then getting killed by Fabius Bile to be used in experimentation

Guys, him being in a rock has been canon sense 2nd edition.


The Rock MOVING TOWARDS CADIA WITH A PRIMARCH READY TO FIGHT is new.


We are commenting on that part.





Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

 Galdos wrote:
Guys, him being in a rock has been canon sense 2nd edition.


The Rock MOVING TOWARDS CADIA WITH A PRIMARCH READY TO FIGHT is new.


We are commenting on that part.





Also Im kind of confused why people believe that the Inquisition is trying to destroy the Imperium. If a Primarch showed up the Inquisition would support his ass in heart beat. The last thing they are going to do is defy the son of the God-Emperor

People see the harsh measures implemented by the Inquisition and believe that they hate humanity and hope etc.....but such thoughts belong solely in small minds and we are not accountable to such as they