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The overwhelming majority of the population has no clue what a primarch IS, never mind what one LOOKS like. Except for maybe they'd know what Sanguinius looks like, and even then they'd only know from the statues-- Sanguinius being the only one who was sainted. There's no telling how [in]accurate the average statue of him is.

For all they know, the primarch could be some random heretic with way too many mutations and the Imperium is right in opposing them. If primarchs ARE known about by the population, then I find the idea that no one has tried to masquerade as a primarch for political gain in ten thousand years to be even more ridiculous.

First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate. At least in everyone piece of fluff ive encountered, no one has ever mentioned a statue of a Primarch being wrong. Im talking about Space Marines like the UMs saying "that statue of Guilliman is correct" (or to be more precise, you dont see them saying "well that statue is completely wrong")

Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium, indeed Guilliman in stasis is like the second largest pilgramage spot in the Imperium. Not to mention that there are plenty of stories of characters acknowledging the Primarchs. Now that doesnt mean they are correct about everything. The Primarchs are indeed divine beings and a lot has been lost about them in history. Some people consider them to be fables, myths, etc... But they know of the stories at least.



Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch. You claim that, and a Space Marine will come out and take a look at you and can judge if you are or are not within a second. If you are not, he will kill you in a heart beat.

 Galdos wrote:
First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate.

I have no reason to believe this.

 Galdos wrote:
Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium

You say that but without any real evidence.

These mythological beings known as "primarchs" are little more than a legend after what has essentially been ten thousand years of inactivity and irrelevance.

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

Please, you think heretics give a gak about who they offend unless it's the dark god they specifically follow?

 Melissia wrote:
Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.

Defying the High Lords of Terra is defying the Emperor ya that would be a valid statement. Unless you are a Space marine, you dont defy the Inquisition for that is also considered defying the Emperor. Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.




Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium. Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch) and word errupts around the Imperium that a Primarch has returned. Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like. Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch. In a short time the Primarch has the loyalty of every Guard/SM/Navy/Church/Inquisition personal near Cadia. With this monumental support, no one is going to stand up and refuse to listen to this man and call him a heretic. (Why would they after all? If anything they would fight each other to make themselves allies with the Lion)

 Galdos wrote:
Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.

Not quite.

The Sisters of Battle regulate the church in the Emperor's name. They are also the last ones to have actually spoken with Him aside from His own Custodes.

I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
First, the statues of these Primarchs are actually well known and accurate.

I have no reason to believe this.

 Galdos wrote:
Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium

You say that but without any real evidence.

These mythological beings known as "primarchs" are little more than a legend after what has essentially been ten thousand years of inactivity and irrelevance.

 Galdos wrote:
Also one simply doesnt pretend to be a Primarch.

Please, you think heretics give a gak about who they offend unless it's the dark god they specifically follow?

Okay maybe you just need to read Black Library books and the HH novels to understand this stuff. Guardsmen are encountered in the stories mentioning Primarchs, statues are encountered all the time, and Primarchs have power that you cant fool a Space Marine because who Space Marines are. Heretics arnt going to walk up to a Space Marine and claim to be the Primarch of that Space Marines chapter and expect the Space Marine to believe him

 Galdos wrote:
Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch)

He is accused of being an unsanctioned psyker and a mutant, because heretic psykers have done this very thing many times in Imperial history.

 Galdos wrote:
Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like.

Only one Space Marine alive has seen a primarch in action. He's usually kept in stasis until he's ready for his next battle.

 Galdos wrote:
Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch.

See the first paragraph. Your little fantasy assumes that everything goes right, which is a hilariously naive and wrong way of assuming how it will go in 40k.

 Galdos wrote:


Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium.

Are you sure he would not just wait to see which side would win to then side with them and say that he supported them all along, but was just too busy to help with the actual battle?

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

I accepted this point, Non-Space Marines may not know what all of the Primarchs look like but they dont need to. Primarchs have a certain Charisma to them. Thats how the Primarchs were able to conquer their worlds before the Emperor showed up, because they could inspire loyalty the way no mortal man could


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Galdos wrote:


Okay so lets take a step back and approach this one step at a time. Lion wakes up, he sees the 13th Black Crusade and arrives saying who he is and he is here to help the Imperium.

Are you sure he would not just wait to see which side would win to then side with them and say that he supported them all along, but was just too busy to help with the actual battle?

Popular way to joke around him but current fluff shows the Lion to be extremely loyal to the Emperor

 Galdos wrote:
Okay maybe you just need to read Black Library books

Which one? The gakky marinewank bolter porn novels that depict them as gods upon the battlefield, thus pissing and gakking all over the lore? The non-Astartes based lore, the overwhelming majority of which has absolutely no mention of any primarchs at all?

Fan-fiction perhaps? Because fanfiction where your favorite primarch becomes a mary sue seems to be what you're heading towards.

 Galdos wrote:
and the HH novels

Irrelevant. Those novels are 10,000 years out of date.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
Anyone who meets him is instantly amazed at the mans charisma and leadership (he is a Primarch)

He is accused of being an unsanctioned psyker and a mutant, because heretic psykers have done this very thing many times in Imperial history.

 Galdos wrote:
Space Marines will recognize his slaim instantly because they recognize what Primarchs look like.

Only one Space Marine alive has seen a primarch in action. He's usually kept in stasis until he's ready for his next battle.

 Galdos wrote:
Now the Guard/Navy may not recognize what he looks like but none would deny the force of charisma he has and his obvious intelligence. The Church would fight each other to be the first one to claim that a miracle has occured and a Primarch has returned. The Inquisiton is already near Cadia and they also would be able to recognize that this is a Primarch.

See the first paragraph. Your little fantasy assumes that everything goes right, which is a hilariously naive and wrong way of assuming how it will go in 40k.

I give up, this is actually unbelieveable.

 Galdos wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Defying the Sisters of Battle is defying the Emperor, as well. So is defying the Inquisition, and defying the High Lords of Terra.

The Emperor's Imperium was huge. That multiple people spoke/speak for him is no real wonder.

Defying the High Lords of Terra is defying the Emperor ya that would be a valid statement. Unless you are a Space marine, you dont defy the Inquisition for that is also considered defying the Emperor. Sisters of Battle is the Church, you defy them you are just a heretic.

The Space Wolves defy the Inquisition all of the time. Both the Space Wolves and the Black Templars are ignoring the 1000 Marine Chapter limit as outlined in the Codex Astartes.

Two examples that don't support your theory, I'm afraid.

Galdos wrote:Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium, indeed Guilliman in stasis is like the second largest pilgramage spot in the Imperium.

That I know to be just flat-out wrong. It may be so within Ultramar, but codex and rulebook fluff actually touched upon pilgrimages and the most popular ones were on the opposite side of the galaxy. The most famous pilgrimage route is Ophelia VII -> Chiros -> Gathalamor -> Terra.

Or was this retconned by a new Codex? If so, I'd like to know. :3

Galdos wrote:Not to mention that there are plenty of stories of characters acknowledging the Primarchs.

Most of whom only told on the handful of planets under direct control of the Space Marines, I'd presume. The Imperium of Man has a vast number of saints and stories, and for quite some time the Ecclesiarchy has been in a minor schism with the Adeptus Astartes, torn between their biological connection to the Emperor and their continueing defiance of the Imperial Creed.

I have a feeling some posters are completely dismissing the effects of Imperial propaganda, indoctrination and infiltration here. People in the Imperium grow up hanging on the lips of Ministorum clerics. A figure from legends past showing up would surely raise confusion, but I don't see why exactly the citizens should forget the officials they're used to obey and believe in favour of some mythical hero they've never met even once in their life, and who is rather unlikely to show up in person on their little planet. I mean, isn't it obvious that - should a conflict truly occur - the Ecclesiarchy would just go "o horror, our God-Emperor weepetht, for one of his most favourite sons hath turneth from the light, corrupted in his slumber by the voices of dreadful daemons" and people would just go "rabblerabblerabble"?

Because in the end, Emperor > Primarch, and I don't really see a reason why the common citizen should suddenly disbelieve the clerics they trusted all their life so far. They are not aware of the political infighting. They only know what they are told - by the very organisations that Jonson would have to fight. It'd take some major event to "wake people up", and I just don't know how exactly you think that would occur?

 Galdos wrote:
I give up, this is actually unbelieveable.

I concur entirely. Your theory IS actually quite unbelievable.

This is the same setting whereupon the quote "There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time" (Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, C:WH 3rd Edition) is considered a JUSTIFIED statement.

What I'd like to think would happen if a Primarch (or even a reborn Emperor!) would return is something similar that happens in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor (from the Brothers Karamazov; yes, GW knows this wonderful little tale well.)



That's grimdark!

Ah, the Brothers Karamazov.

It gets more grimdark if you consider that the guy arrested and burned by Lord Inquisitor Karamazov in 40k was believed by Thorian Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy to be a vessel for the Emperor's resurrection.

 Lynata wrote:
Ah, the Brothers Karamazov.

It gets more grimdark if you consider that the guy arrested and burned by Lord Inquisitor Karamazov in 40k was believed by Thorian Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy to be a vessel for the Emperor's resurrection.

Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

Even Inquisitors can be fooled by a heretic every now and then. Those are the most dangerous of heretics. Therefor, Inquisitors by their very nature are uncompromising beings to avoid things like this.

 Crimson wrote:
What I'd like to think would happen if a Primarch (or even a reborn Emperor!) would return is something similar that happens in Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor.

Spoiler:

In the tale, Christ comes back to earth in Seville at the time of the Inquisition. He performs a number of miracles (echoing miracles from the Gospels). The people recognize him and adore him, but he is arrested by Inquisition leaders and sentenced to be burnt to death the next day. The Grand Inquisitor visits him in his cell to tell him that the Church no longer needs him. The main portion of the text is devoted to the Inquisitor explaining to Jesus why his return would interfere with the mission of the Church.

That's grimdark!

Agreed. Primarchs are more useful as myths and legends-- angels (fallen or otherwise) serving under the God-Emperor-- than as actual living beings.

Melissia wrote:Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

I dunno ... I actually like the idea of the various Imperial agencies sometimes working against the Emperor's vision, even sabotaging it. I guess my thirst for this dystopian aspect of the setting is why I like 40k so much more than the Brighthammer HH stuff with its shiny heroes. Not to mention the old Inquisition fluff about the big conspiracy to prevent Big E's rebirth out of fear it'd destroy the Imperium for good.

That being said, we could always theorise that Karamazov just faked the evidence to save his hide, as completely unsupported as this is by the material itself.

 Lynata wrote:
That being said, we could always theorise that Karamazov just faked the evidence to save his hide, as completely unsupported as this is by the material itself.

He could have yes.

We'll never know, will we? Both interpretations are pretty grimdark.

 Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

I dunno ... I actually like the idea of the various Imperial agencies sometimes working against the Emperor's vision, even sabotaging it. I guess my thirst for this dystopian aspect of the setting is why I like 40k so much more than the Brighthammer HH stuff with its shiny heroes. Not to mention the old Inquisition fluff about the big conspiracy to prevent Big E's rebirth out of fear it'd destroy the Imperium for good.

Yes, exactly! And now with the FW doing HH, can we please keep 40K properly dystopian?

 Galdos wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingDeath wrote:
Primarchs might be the sons of the God Emperor, but they were also the ones who caused the Horus Heresy.
It was Papa Smurf himself who created the modern Imperium and who made sure that the Imperium would be ruled by humans and not by the Primarchs or their spawn.

Yes all that is true which means what?

The Lion doesnt care about ruling the Imperium, he wants to defeat the enemies of Hummanity. Also Primarchs are still considered near divine beings in the eyes of the Imperium.

My point is that even a returned primarch would be unlikely to reverse the reforms done by Papa Smurf. Even attempting to do so would mark him has a traitor and heretic of the worst kind, just like his powerhungry brothers were once marked. The Heresy has not been forgotten, especialy not by those in power and the "unwashed" masses will usualy do what their confessors or, on less pious worlds the people in charge, tell them.
So yes, a returned primarch can care about defeating the enemies of humanity, but he has to do so within the frames of the Imperium. What people like to forget is that the carriongod's Great Crusade Imperium, where the Primarchs and their spacemarine spawn had actual political power, lasted for a mere 200 years before it fell into civil war while the current day Imperium, despite all of it's many flaws, managed to last trough 10000 years of neverending warfare. To upset such a (relatively) sucessful system would require a realy good justification.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I'm more confused why some of you think the High Lords of Terra or even the majority of the Inqusition are some kind of high-minded noble paragons.

There were rebellious elements in the Emperor's domain (on Terra itself!) even as far back as the Great Crusade. Half the Primarchs betrayed the Imperium, and the other half either died or abandoned it. Why would the ambitious and powerful suddenly hand over the reigns to a throwback?

Then they would just let the Imperium crumble away? Are they that stupid? They may not be paragons, but they are definitely pragmatic. And there's still the Captain-General of the Custodes, who is also a High Lord at times, and may arguably be delivering missives from the Emperor. If the Emperor says Lion or a loyal Primarch takes charge, are they gonna argue? Of course not; the Custodes would summarily execute them for treason.

And this is why the argument is moot. IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side with all of the 1ST legion the Scars, and wolves would join quickly as would the BA When lion had assembled this force He would take command with the Custodes support the inquistion would be screwed quickly. The Sisters believe in the Emperor and his sons It would all be at Lions command. Game set match.

IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side

Why?

What makes you think that charismatic heretics and psykers have not tried to overtake Cadia from within before-- and that they are not prepared for it to happen again?

Chaos is VERY well known for their subversive tactics. It's pretty much their big thing.

 Melissia wrote:

IF Lion came back at Cadia the cadians would be on his side

Why?

What makes you think that charismatic heretics and psykers have not tried to overtake Cadia from within before-- and that they are not prepared for it to happen again?

Chaos is VERY well known for their subversive tactics. It's pretty much their big thing.

They would see him lead 10,000 astartes against chaos and smashing them right back into the warp Creed is a smart guy he could put 2 and 2 together.

 captain collius wrote:
They would see him lead 10,000 astartes

Actually, that would probably make them even MORE likely to resist.

Last time that many Astartes gathered in one place under a single commander was the Horus Heresy. The Imperium has not yet forgotten the sins of the Astartes. They are not trusted with that much power by any authority in the Imperium-- and for good reason.

 Crimson wrote:
I am sure Primarchs are well known in a way King Arthur or Achilles are well known in our world. They're known as legends, not in a way that everyone would actually instantly recognise one.

More or less this. Primarchs are venerated legendary figures and are displayed in statues/artwork frequently. Originally this wasn't so much the case in fluff, but since the HH series has started GW is slowly injecting this fact in. The Titanoliths being the best example.

How is the argument moot? You do not supply much for why anyone should care about Jonson, you just say "they'd listen to him" as if you'd present a fact rather than a theory.

I'm leaning towards most of the Astartes doing it (at least as long as it doesn't devolve into an all-out civil war where a Chapter would have to decide between the Dark Angels or Terra), but I just don't see why a returning Primarch should completely override the command structure people grew up in simply by climbing out of his rock.

Cadia is populated by what amounts to be a heavily militarised and disciplined society. They will do what their superior officer tells them. This means that the Cadians will listen to Creed, and barring some exceptional event I don't see why Creed should favour Jonson over Segmentum Command and the Munitorum.

The Sisters of Battle believe in the Emperor, his "sons" do not play much of a role in the Imperial Creed. The connection is part of why the Ecclesiarchy appears a bit split on how to deal with the Astartes, but obviously this has not prevented purge missions to occur in the past, not to mention an underlying rivalry between specific Orders Militant and Astartes Chapters. The Space Wolves and the Blood Angels joining forces with Jonson would be an obvious turn-off for the Sisterhood, even if they'd consider splitting from the Ecclesiarchy - and you can forget about that as well; they're much too indoctrinated and faithful for that.

Lastly, the Custodes ... what leads you to just assume they'd pick sides rather than standing on the side as they did during the Age of Apostasy?

captain collius wrote:They would see him lead 10,000 astartes against chaos and smashing them right back into the warp Creed is a smart guy he could put 2 and 2 together.

Those 10.000 Astartes are already in the area, trying to stem the invasion. Jonson adding to their number might have a morale effect because of "it's a Primarch!!!", but how much that would affect the actual military campaign remains doubtful.
Unless you buy into this "invincible demigod" stuff and take all those legends and fairytales as truth rather than taking into account that many of them are even criticised within the setting.

In fact, Jonson may have a problem with the reputation of his Chapter. The Imperial Navy almost opened fire on the Dark Angels' ships over Armageddon because the military was pissed they were withdrawing their forces just like that. And this is not the only story we have about the Dark Angels forsaking their allies and having a fairly bad rep as far as reliability is concerned. And that's just what GW wrote about them!

The Dark Angels showing up around Cadia will have Creed wonder how long they'll stay around this time rather than cheering in relief. After all, it's impossible to include them as a factor in a campaign - you'll never know if they actually stick to the plan, even if they'd be willing to talk it over with you. Which, more often than not, they won't.

 Melissia wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
They would see him lead 10,000 astartes

Actually, that would probably make them even MORE likely to resist.

Last time that many Astartes gathered in one place was the Horus Heresy. The Imperium has not yet forgotten the sins of the Astartes. They are not trusted with that much power by any authority in the Imperium-- and for good reason.

Armageddon and the Badab war never happened then?

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Armageddon and the Badab war never happened then?

Those aren't very good examples, and especially for Badab they really only serve as MORE reason to distrust Marines.

Well, if it'd be the Ultras I imagine they'd be more welcome, but the Dark Angels just don't have the same rep.

Sir Samuel Buca does raise a good point about how the vast distances and the delay in interstellar communication could impact any attempts by the High Lords to take steps against Jonson, though. If he just shows up somewhere faraway, he'd surely have at least several weeks or even months until they'd even become aware that there's a Primarch walking around. And the first reports would likely be regarded with some suspicion, either thinking it's an impostor or a mistake.

I'm still sceptical as to whether it would, hypothetically, truly be that easy for him to just assume command based on his status. Imperial decree dictates a firm separation between Astartes and other Imperial forces unless authorised by the very same organisations that some posters argue Jonson would have to fight.
I could see it happen, I just don't think the matter it is as crystal-clear as some people apparently assume.

PS: I did make a mistake with my comment regarding Armageddon, though - turns out that was another Chapter! >_<