Basic question: Can I give a DA Command Squad veteran a Storm bolter (replacing his Chainsword) then upgrade him to an Apothecary? That only requires giving up the Bolt Pistol for the Narthecium.

No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws.

This move is totally fine, OP.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws.

This move is totally fine, OP.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Painboyz in Nobz units

 Kingsley wrote:
[Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws..

Which was an Ork only FAQ and made total sense for Orks even if it broke the rules.

I don't see the problem. 1 veteran replaces his chainsword with a storm bolter. The same veteran then replaces his bolt pistol with a narthecium. There is nothing in the command squad rules that states a particular order for taking upgrades.

When the wargear is restricted to a specific model (such as a Nob or Furioso Dreadnought) then you cannot take options and then upgrade to a different model type. If the option is for any model you can take the option prior to upgrading.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

See, this is how I see it, mostly because there are no hard and fast rules on *when* upgrades are taken.

Obviously, an Apothecary can't take a Storm bolter, because that is an option only available to Vets, but there is nothing stopping a Vet that has a Storm bolter (and the required Bolt pistol) from becoming an Apothecary and keeping his Storm bolter.

As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

 Flinty wrote:
I don't see the problem. 1 veteran replaces his chainsword with a storm bolter. The same veteran then replaces his bolt pistol with a narthecium. There is nothing in the command squad rules that states a particular order for taking upgrades.

I think that makes as much sense as buying a Trukk for 10 ork boyz, then upping the unit size to 30. Totally legal with a sequence view, totally illegal if you check requirements last.

-Matt

 Happyjew wrote:
As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

So your saying that you don't think that it would work, or is allowed?

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

40k-noob wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

The units initial composition is 5 Veterans, when he takes the Narthecium he ceases to be a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, thus why there is a separate stat line listed for an Apothecary, if this wasn't the case then neither the Apothecary or the Champion would be characters and the Champion wouldn't get WS 5, this isn't a new things, tons of codices function this way.

No, Champions also cannot take weapon upgrades, they aren't Veterans, they are Company Champions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think that makes as much sense as buying a Trukk for 10 ork boyz, then upping the unit size to 30. Totally legal with a sequence view, totally illegal if you check requirements last.

-Matt

You check the requirements at all times, there's no set time that the requirements are checked, your list can never become illegal.

You can buy upgrades in any order but it doesn't change this fact, you can never "loophole" your way into equipping models with things they aren't legally allowed to be equipped with.

 Happyjew wrote:
As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

I'm gonna have to go with this stance as well.

40k-noob wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

FenixZero wrote:
Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

Technically, as soon as he becomes a company champion, any upgrades which were not permitted to be taken by company champions become invalid for him and your list is illegal if he has taken them.

You can take upgrades in any order, you still can't combine them in an illegal way.

There are 2 FAQs which set this precedent, there is no FAQ which sets a precedent of allowing such an upgraded model to take options prior to his upgrade he would not later be allowed to take and retain them.

There is simply no grounds for trying to justify giving veteran only upgrades to a champion or apothecary.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

FenixZero wrote:
Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

Technically, as soon as he becomes a company champion, any upgrades which were not permitted to be taken by company champions become invalid for him and your list is illegal if he has taken them.

You can take upgrades in any order, you still can't combine them in an illegal way.

There are 2 FAQs which set this precedent, there is no FAQ which sets a precedent of allowing such an upgraded model to take options prior to his upgrade he would not later be allowed to take and retain them.

There is simply no grounds for trying to justify giving veteran only upgrades to a champion or apothecary.

What FAQ's are you referring to?

Spleen seems to have common sense on his side. "I wait until AFTER I buy the Storm Bolter to make him an Apothecary" seems right up there with "Mephiston's power never says it ends, so it must last all game" and "the Assault Vehicle rule says I can assault in the turn I disembark, so if you wreck my Land Raider I can assault you during YOUR assault phase." I don't think I would allow this in a game I was playing in.

40k-noob wrote:
What FAQ's are you referring to?

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Q: Can a Furioso Librarian take additional wargear (such as extra armour)? (p29)
A: No.

Oh goodness, this again,

So this is a very similar argument people are using for TH/SS terminators with a CML.

If people are using other factions FAQ's as a means of finding permission... The Ork FAQ allows you to by example of the Nob + powerKlaw and the BA FAQ prevents you based on the Furioso Librarian.

Until GW writes something addressing the DA codex more thoroughly we're not going to have a cut and dry answer.


I don't have my codex in front of me, but unless the upgrade to apothecary mentions something about replacing wargear with a Narthecium I think you can buy X and then upgrade to Y.

you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

Azrell wrote:
you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

You might want to check the Ork FAQ.
Spoiler - you're wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

Azrell wrote:
you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

You might want to check the Ork FAQ.
Spoiler - you're wrong.

You mean this question:

Ork FAQ wrote:Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Just kidding. In all seriousness, GW dose appear to have a stance. they just don't outright say it. See my other posts for that stance.

In addition to all the other reasons you can't do this posted by everyone else, this would never fly in a tournament setting. In a friendly game, honestly who cares? But brass tacks, this would be illegal in a current tournament setting. I'm not siding one way or the other, I'm simply telling you what reality is. So you can play it your way with the storm bolter or play it with a tournament standard list.....either way, how you play with your toys is between you and your opponent.

MadmanMSU wrote:
In addition to all the other reasons you can't do this posted by everyone else, this would never fly in a tournament setting. In a friendly game, honestly who cares? But brass tacks, this would be illegal in a current tournament setting. I'm not siding one way or the other, I'm simply telling you what reality is. So you can play it your way with the storm bolter or play it with a tournament standard list.....either way, how you play with your toys is between you and your opponent.

You seem so sure of that. I'm pretty sure you don't speak for every tournament out there.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What FAQ's are you referring to?

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Q: Can a Furioso Librarian take additional wargear (such as extra armour)? (p29)
A: No.

The problem with those is that is talking about what you can't do after the change to a different type, and I would agree with you.

It seems that I will have to play it on a game by game basis and ask my opponents.

What GW has done is give two different situations. They both point to timing but there is a subtle difference:

1) Painboy in Nobz: Nob cannot take options and then upgrade to Painboy.

2) Nob in Boyz: Nob can take a power klaw, followed by an all models option, for which he no longer has the wargear to be swapped.

In both cases, the option is legal for the new model type. Let's apply this to the DA Apothecary.

Veteran takes Storm Bolter then becomes Apothecary.

Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

 Homer S wrote:


Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

And this is written where...?


Same thing is here with a shield at company champion: would be kinda stupid if regular vets could run around with storm shields and proud company champion choosen for duels blahblahblah with a simple combat shield...

vitalis09 wrote:

 Homer S wrote:


Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

And this is written where...?


Same thing is here with a shield at company champion: would be kinda stupid if regular vets could run around with storm shields and proud company champion choosen for duels blahblahblah with a simple combat shield...

Codex: DA, Command Squad: Apothecary and Company Champion are separate model types within a Command Squad and are not the same as a Veteran. If this is not the case, then a Painboy would be able to take upgrades meant for Nobz and they clearly cannot. As to the Champion, in the absence of a FAQ/errata they are not a Veteran either.

If you believe that the Apothecary can take an upgrade meant for a Veteran, then look at the entry for Veteran Squads. can a Sergeant swap his Boltgun for a Flamer? He is in a Veteran Squad.

Homer

 Homer S wrote:


If you believe that the Apothecary can take an upgrade meant for a Veteran, then look at the entry for Veteran Squads. can a Sergeant swap his Boltgun for a Flamer? He is in a Veteran Squad.

Homer

Same story for me. I know it reads "any model" and "one veteran" but it can be interpreted as "any veteran" and "one model" . It all comes down to the dispute about veteran that is upgraded to sergeant/champion/apothecary is still technically a veteran or he looses this status.

For me, as for now it is now settled any way, too many for and against. Waiting for new leads or official statement.

As an aside, the 4th ed DA codex did allow for the Banner Bearer/Apothecary in a DW/RW squad to take upgrades, however that was FAQ'd to be allowed.

I'll point you all in the direction of the BA FAQ, which has the closest precedent - simply swap Apothecary for Sanguinary Novitiate and Command Squad for Honour Guard and it's exactly the same, so even closer than the examples already given.

Q: Can the Sanguinary Novitiate in the Honour Guard take the
upgrades that are available to the Honour Guard? (p84)
A: No.

As if to REALLY nail this on the head, there are other units within the Codex itself that use both "any (modelnamehere)" and "any model", meaning there's a marked difference between the two. The Deathwing Command Squad and Scout Squad are good examples. So even if you completely ignore precedent, the Codex itself defines a difference between named models and any models in a given unit.

The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

What difference does it make that the Nob swaps 2 weapons for 2 things while the apothecary only swaps 1 for 1? That shouldn't be the limiting factor in the Ork FAQ for why they don't allow him to take items that don't require the swapping of weapons.

Basically no, you are wrong, and this is the most ridiculous reasoning anyone has used so far in this thread.

Um excuse me. You don't have to be rude.

The Painboy doesn't swap anything at all. That is the wargear he is given. And if you look the painboy has his own options. He can take grot orderlys and give Cybork to all the members. It is headed by a big bold print that says Painboy.

The apoth has options before he is an apoth. So how is that ridiulous? And from my understanding all the options are legal for all to take as long as they fulfill the requirement of said upgrade. From this codex or any of them.

So thanks for your opinion.

Because your argument is like saying that the Nob who is a painboy bought the stuff before becoming a painboy and thus is allowed the wargear, however, the only time order does not necessarily matter is when any model in the unit can take the option.

No I am not saying the painboy can change. That is why it is FAQ'd. The only way you can take a painboy is if you have slugga and choppa. So you can't have a nob with a PK upgrade to a painboy, as he no longer has the slugga choppa that is needed.

But with the apoth he can take something else like the stormbolter that he wants. Because you can swap a bolt pistol and or/ Chainsword for a stormbolter. If it said to change both bolt pistol and CC weapon for the narthicium then I would be against it but that is not the case.

Ok so the same with the Deathwing terminators options. Can a TH/SS or LC terminator take a CML? Well the answer is yes as all it says is 1 in every 5 can take a CML.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

What difference does it make that the Nob swaps 2 weapons for 2 things while the apothecary only swaps 1 for 1? That shouldn't be the limiting factor in the Ork FAQ for why they don't allow him to take items that don't require the swapping of weapons.

Basically no, you are wrong, and this is the most ridiculous reasoning anyone has used so far in this thread.

Are you the principal from 'Billy Madison'?

Jeez...

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
No I am not saying the painboy can change. That is why it is FAQ'd. The only way you can take a painboy is if you have slugga and choppa. So you can't have a nob with a PK upgrade to a painboy, as he no longer has the slugga choppa that is needed.

Which doesn't even begin to address the FAQ about the Painboy where he is said to be unable to take upgrades that don't replace his slugga or choppa even though he is a Nob before he is a Painboy, and even though he will still have a slugga and choppa to replace.

It's the exact same situation, your arbitrary distinction between the two doesn't even exist.

Because the painboy has his own options listed,( In Bold ) that is why he is only limited to those. Seems pretty clear to me.

The new box you buy the Deathwing Command squad in shows storm bolter and Nath for the apoth.




Edit: Actually, NM. You're talking about normal space marine armoured command squads.

 Super Ready wrote:
I'll point you all in the direction of the BA FAQ, which has the closest precedent - simply swap Apothecary for Sanguinary Novitiate and Command Squad for Honour Guard and it's exactly the same, so even closer than the examples already given.

Q: Can the Sanguinary Novitiate in the Honour Guard take the
upgrades that are available to the Honour Guard? (p84)
A: No.

As if to REALLY nail this on the head, there are other units within the Codex itself that use both "any (modelnamehere)" and "any model", meaning there's a marked difference between the two. The Deathwing Command Squad and Scout Squad are good examples. So even if you completely ignore precedent, the Codex itself defines a difference between named models and any models in a given unit.

Yes but the difference between this and the DA is the unit composition. The Honour guard is 4 Honour guard and 1 Sanguinary Novitiate, not 5 Honour guard and one can upgrade to a Sanguinary Novitiate.

The order you take upgrades is irrelevant. Being no way to prove that you took the upgrade before you changed to an apoth aside, you exchange the models "type" when you upgrade leaving the end result an illegal model to upgrade any further.

Also a bullet list (those black dots) are usually read top to bottom like a numbered list... in which case you would upgrade to an apoth before weapon upgrades for veterans. Of course we are assuming that someone writing for GW has any knowledge of punctuation or sentence structure, a rather large assumption. Sometimes i think we are luck they remember to spell their own name correctly.



That being said almost every model ever produced for the apoth has a pistol in the same hand as the narthecium so im guessing this will be FAQ to make more sense eventually.

I submitted a similarly worded question to GW. Naturally I got the standard thanks for asking, it might end up in a FAQ. If we were to use the old 5th edition FAQ regarding DW/RW Apothecaries, it is definitely legal. Furthermore, the same FAQ also specifies that any Scout includes the Scout Sergeant. That being said (including the arguments being made to allow a DW Terminator to take a TH/SS and CML, I'm starting to think it might actually be legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azrell wrote:
Also a bullet list (those black dots) are usually read top to bottom like a numbered list... in which case you would upgrade to an apoth before weapon upgrades for veterans.

Except in the case for Orks, where the Nob is at the end and is allowed to take wargear presented before him in this list. I agree that GW seems to be making a transition to treat the lists in a set order (See Furioso Dreadnought).

Doesn't the Apothecary on the front of the Deathwing Command Squad box have a storm bolter?

 Infreak wrote:
Doesn't the Apothecary on the front of the Deathwing Command Squad box have a storm bolter?

We are talking PA one. DW apothecary swaps PF instead of bolter.

Oops

Here's the thing. Nobs are allowed to purchase power klaws, I believe every nob in the codex. They needed the faq because the wording for swaps in shoota squads.

Apothecaries are not permitted to purchase storm bolters. You're attempting to use a timing loophole to end up with one.

Well until this so called "timing" issue is fixed I don't see a reason why you can't take an apoth with that storm bolter. As there are no rules that prevent this ATM.

Honestly, what is the point of making an upgrade unavailable to the Apothecary if you can just get around it by taking the upgrades in a specific order?

But what upgrades are unavailable to him?

My understanding is he is in all respects a veteran. Its just he has a special role as an apothecary. So why shouldn't he have access to the same stuff they do?

can the banner bearer also take different weapons? or is he only limited to the banner? Its really all the same thing IMHO. Sure it is written a bit different. But no rules are being broke by giving the apothecary different wargear.

So basically if he couldn't have any other wargear, he would have a chainsword and a narthecium. No shooting weapon because he has to replace his bolt pistol with the narthscium. Seems kinda wierd to me.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But what upgrades are unavailable to him?

My understanding is he is in all respects a veteran. Its just he has a special role as an apothecary. So why shouldn't he have access to the same stuff they do?

A different name and a different stat line means he is no longer a veteran when upgraded.

THE ANSWER IS NO THE APOTH CAN NOT TAKE UPGRADES LIKE A VETERAN UNLESS FAQD.

It might not be the answer you want to hear but that's how the rules are written You are more than welcome to change or modify the rules in your games any way you see fit. But as written in the codex an apoth can not take upgrades as he is not a veteran, just like the libby dread in BAs cant, just like the space marine cant take upgrades that a Sargent can, just like justicar thrawn cant take upgrades like the justicar he replaces. NO.

and just in case you want to drag some codex from 4th ed with an FAQ from the beginning of 5th edition... ill say it one more time NO.

I honestly don't care one way or the other. But I see no rules that explains a timing on how things are purchased nor do you. So as far as I see it it can be done until there is a FAQ that explains it either way.

Just because you say it doesn't work does not tell me anything. Unless you are some kind of employee for GW.

I do agree that a FAQ needs to be made to yeah or nah it, but until then its really a matter of opinion right or wrong.

You didn't answer my question though. Why would an option not be available to a model after you upgrade him to an Apothecary if you could get around it by giving it to the model before you upgrade him? You don't get points for clever army building so why would GW make an option illegal one way yet legal the other way?

What I want to know is why GW decided Nartheciums require you to drop a weapon now

 Ghaz wrote:
You didn't answer my question though. Why would an option not be available to a model after you upgrade him to an Apothecary if you could get around it by giving it to the model before you upgrade him? You don't get points for clever army building so why would GW make an option illegal one way yet legal the other way?

I honestly don't know. But seems to me that they should have written it better if that was there Intention. Especially when they have models equiped ways that "you can't equip them"
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat860007a&prodId=prod1140227 In this example you will see an Apothecary holding a bolt pistol of which you have to drop to get the Narthicium. In the Dark Angels HQ section.

The rule is written just fine. You however have no support for your claims that you can take an illegal option for a model by playing around with the 'timing' of upgrades.

Is this further clearified by the use of 'any model in the unit may swap' text styles used in most situations where even the Sergeant, Exarch(...etc) can take the listed weargear?

 Ghaz wrote:
The rule is written just fine. You however have no support for your claims that you can take an illegal option for a model by playing around with the 'timing' of upgrades.

But I see no illegal option in the rules as written. As there is no timing and as long as I follow all written rules. ie swapping a weapon that I have to upgrade said model. But I guess we agree to disagree. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

So you wouldn't mind if I take 10 eldar guardians, buy them a transport, then buy 10 more guardians for the squad?
After all, I did have 12 or less guardians when I bought the transport.
You're timing makes it legal, yet clearly that is not what was intended.

-Matt

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

But I see no illegal option in the rules as written. As there is no timing and as long as I follow all written rules. ie swapping a weapon that I have to upgrade said model. But I guess we agree to disagree. You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Except it is illegal for the Apothecary to have a storm bolter. If that was0 a legal option then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And yor claims of being allowed to do so don't hold up because you have no support to back your claims that you can have an illegal model due to playing with the timing. If it were meant to be legal, you wouldn't be forced to justify it by timing issues.

If any model was allowed, the rule would say so. It's not like that is new or novel, it's in every recent codex. It is even on the same page of the same unit entry! "Any model may take:" It is even in THE SAME RULE, "For every full five models in the squad, one Veteran may..." Again, if it was meant to be model, it would say model. It does not.

Homer

Well again I said we agree to disagree. I see no problem with it you see a problem with it. Its all good whatever way you decide to do it is up to you. But I know my group reads it the way I do.

And what about the model I posted the link to. Does that not hold any merit to what I am talking about? Or is GW wrong, you know the company that makes the models and the rules.

Everyone of you have talked about presidence being stated. I am curious as to what the ruling for the Nobs having Bshootas in Ork squads are. There are no FAQ's to say yeah or nah to this. It seems to go along the same line with this situation. I have always equiped my nob with PK and Bshoota. Seems pretty legit to me as does the apoth having a Storm bolter.

The thing is nobs have the option to take a klaw, it was the exchange wording that prevented it pre-faq.

Storm bolter is not an option for apothecaries.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
The thing is nobs have the option to take a klaw, it was the exchange wording that prevented it pre-faq.

Storm bolter is not an option for apothecaries.

I am not talking about the Klaw, I am talking about the Big Shoota.

The FAQ says nothing of a big shoota, only a power klaw and big choppa.

And that is my point. The same situation for the Bshoota on the Nob as for the Apothecary and the storm bolter. So if they haven't FAQ'ed the Nob and his ability to take the Bshoota then why can't the apoth take a Storm bolter? Same situation to me.

Can you quote the exact text that allows a nob to take a big shoota? I don't own that codex.

"For every 10 Orks in the Mob, one Ork may exchange his slugga or shoota for:
- Big Shoot............................_points per model
- Rokkit launcher.................._points per model"

The FAQ kinda sets a timing thing like I have been trying to prove. You can make him a Nob before you exchange the units weapons. So there is some kind of timing situation to me. If not then he would have a shoota and can't get rid of it.

Somethings still missing. What are the names attached to stat lines? Does it say "ork" or "ork boyz" or what next to the non-nob statline?

Boy
'Ard Boy
Nob
'Ard Boy Nob

what I wrote is under Options (bold print)

The There is Character (Bold Print)

One boy may be upgraded to a Nob....+_ points
He may replace his Choppa with one of the Following:
- Big Choppa......_ points
- Power Klaw..._points
He may take any of the following:
Eavy armor(if not a 'Ard Boy Nob).._points
Boos pole...._ points

Well there's the difference.

It says for every 10 orks, one ork may... Ork is a generic racial term pertaining to nobs, boyz, ard boyz etc.

Not even close to the apothecary issue. The model ceases to be a veteran when you upgrade him. Storm bolters are not an option for apothecary models. If it said "any model" or "any dark angel" it would be comperable.

Yes but storm bolters are accessable to veterans. Then the veteran is accessable to the Aopthecary upgrade. It really is the same thing as the timing that has been set with the FAQ buying the Nob before you upgrade the squad. So I don't really see a difference other then armies.

But the nob has permission to end with a big shoota or klaw because he is an ork and all nobs can take klaws. There was a faq to clarify the timing because the echange was poorly written.

The apothecary has no permission to end with wargear for veterans, because he ceases to be a veteran.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:I am curious as to what the ruling for the Nobs having Bshootas in Ork squads are. There are no FAQ's to say yeah or nah to this. It seems to go along the same line with this situation. I have always equiped my nob with PK and Bshoota. Seems pretty legit to me as does the apoth having a Storm bolter.

Doesn't this go against your own standard you have set previously in this thread with regards to Painboys?

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Because the painboy has his own options listed,( In Bold ) that is why he is only limited to those. Seems pretty clear to me.

The Nob in a boyz squad has his own options listed in a separate section, shouldn't he then be only limited to those, just like you claim the Painboy is?

Just so you know the FAQ says ( Any model may replace his blotgun with one of the following
stom bolter......x points per model
combi weapon..... x points per model
and so on and so on

Command Squads and Company Veterans are different things

Sorry I do not have my codex in front of me but i thought the company command squad was just a upgraded vet squad

In terms of fluff, yeah it basically is, but they have totally separate unit entries in the army list, and the FAQ only applies to the specific "Company Veterans" entry.

So this whole arguement just boils down to RAI and RAW and how thay play at there game store. If they play Rule As Writtten then no you can not, but if they play Rule As Intended then it is fine. Just go ask your gamming buddies as to what they think about the whole thing and go from there.

To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Khalbrae wrote:
To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Command squad Vets don't have Bolters. Would be kinda hard to trade away somehting you never have to begin with.

 Happyjew wrote:

Khalbrae wrote:
To take a Nath, he needs to trade his boltgun, to take a storm he needs to trade his boltgun... what is so hard to comprehend? He takes one, no longer has the boltgun. Ergo nothing is left to trade for something else.

Command squad Vets don't have Bolters. Would be kinda hard to trade away somehting you never have to begin with.

They also don't have to give up anything to take a storm shield...

No wonder this has gone on for 3 pages, it appears half the people don't even know the unit in question.

Storm probably refers to storm bolter.

I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

Because the apothecary has a standard wargear listing on page 33 so when the model is upgraded, that listing would assert itself.

 wilsmire wrote:
So this whole arguement just boils down to RAI and RAW and how thay play at there game store. If they play Rule As Writtten then no you can not, but if they play Rule As Intended then it is fine. Just go ask your gamming buddies as to what they think about the whole thing and go from there.

And what leads you to believe that the RAW is not what they intended? I sure don't see anything that would indicate that they intended for the Apothecary to be able to take a storm bolter.

confoo22 wrote:

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
I don't think it matters what order you take the upgrade in. When the model is upgraded it then becomes an apothecary, which is a character. Once it becomes an apothecary it should gain the apothecary's wargear, which is listed on page 33. At that point you could then give it more upgrades if it were allowed under the listing, which it's not.

You can buy a storm bolter for a veteran and then upgrade it, but you would lose the SB when the model became the character, which has standard wargear.

How do you lose it though? The apothecary's wargear is a narthicium which I swap out the bolt pistol for and the chainsword that he starts with. So for example.

I buy vet. he comes standard with bolt pistol and chainsword. I swap chainsword for storm bolter. I then swap bolt pistol for the Apothecary upgrade. I don't lose anything that I couldn't take so there for it is all legal.

Because the apothecary has a standard wargear listing on page 33 so when the model is upgraded, that listing would assert itself.

Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Nivek5150 wrote:
That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Now here you're just plain wrong. In the model, Narthecium takes one complete hand. I'm not sure do BT get Apothecaries in Terminator armour, but C:GK Apothecary can only have Narthecium and either NFW or Brotherhood Banner.

Now, in C:SM Apothecary has both Chainsword and Bolter or bolt pistol, though as far as game mechanics goes, there is no difference between having bolter and bolter+chainsword.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

confoo22 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

And nothing says you can't exchange stuff before he is a apothecary. As long as he has the bolt pistol to exchange for the narthicium.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
Apothecary would then have a chainsword. A chainsword can be exchanged for a storm bolter. The apothecary's starting wargear isn't going to convince people.

That begs the question of whether or not an Apothecary still counts as a veteran once it's been upgraded. Northing in the listing says an apothecary can exchange its chainsword, only veterans.

And nothing says you can't exchange stuff before he is a apothecary. As long as he has the bolt pistol to exchange for the narthicium.

Except that when he becomes an apoth wouldn't he gain the listing on page 33 which spells out an apothecary's loadout? That would mean he loses his previous loadout and you then can't exchange any of his weapons since apoths don't have options in the listing.

I don't have the Codex on me ATM, what is listed on pg 33?

No he gets whats in the army list section. Which is a bolt pistol and a chainsword starting out as a vet. To upgrade to a Apothecary he would have to swap the pistol for a narthicium. So would end up with a chainsword and Narthicium. But if he swapped the Chainsword for a storm bolter before he was a Apothecary then he would swap the pistol for a Narthicium just like normal and would end up with a Storm Bolter and Narthicium.

No problem in my mind with this.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
I don't have the Codex on me ATM, what is listed on pg 33?

No he gets whats in the army list section. Which is a bolt pistol and a chainsword starting out as a vet. To upgrade to a Apothecary he would have to swap the pistol for a narthicium. So would end up with a chainsword and Narthicium. But if he swapped the Chainsword for a storm bolter before he was a Apothecary then he would swap the pistol for a Narthicium just like normal and would end up with a Storm Bolter and Narthicium.

No problem in my mind with this.

Then why would the apothecary have a separate listing in the squad section? If it was just an equipment upgrade, which your argument seems to suggest it is, and not a character upgrade then that would be unnecessary.

The wording in the book seems to suggest that when you trade out the bolt pistol the veteran becomes an apothecary, not just gets a narthecium. As a character that has its own separate listing under the command squad section, so then the loadout would become that of an apothecary which is listed as: Power Armor, Chainsword, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Narthecium. Veterans and the Company Champion also have their own separate listings.

The argument is basically whether the model becomes an apoth or if it just exchanges its bolt pistol.

Luide wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
That being said, I do agree RAW they can't. But I also think it's stupid to make a narthecium need its own hand when it doesn't in every other current codex, so I would let people I play with upgrade their apothecary as much as they want.

Now here you're just plain wrong. In the model, Narthecium takes one complete hand. I'm not sure do BT get Apothecaries in Terminator armour, but C:GK Apothecary can only have Narthecium and either NFW or Brotherhood Banner.

Now, in C:SM Apothecary has both Chainsword and Bolter or bolt pistol, though as far as game mechanics goes, there is no difference between having bolter and bolter+chainsword.

I'm just plain wrong? Alright, fine let's go through it all.

This topic is about PA apothecaries. GK termies and sword brethren aren't applicable to the topic. C:SM, C: DA (4th), C:BA & C:BT all have a narthecium as an additional piece of wargear. The wargear of a C:SM apothecary says: "An apothecary also has a narthecium". The narthecium is attached to the wrist, the GW model's hand is completely empty. And the GW chainsword apothecary model appears to have a gun holster on his waist. A vanilla apothecary needs to have either a bolter or a bolt pistol somewhere on his model, otherwise you're not following WYSIWYG.

It's very clear the C:SM apothecary can have 2 weapons and a narthecium, same goes for all other current codexes as well as the previous DA codex. CA (6th) specifically tells you to sacrifice a weapon to gain a narthecium. My original point is: Why did they decide to change it?

And did you say there's no functional difference between having a Boltgun + CCW and having a pistol + CCW? Really?

tl;dr - RAW they can't, but RAI I don't understand why they shouldn't be able to, so I would let people I play with do it.