I was down in LA for a business trip and while there, I got in 2 great games against 2 very good opponents, both of whom are also very well known here on dakka (at least to the dakka veterans). First I played against Blackmoor's and his "Draigo-less Draigowing" Grey Knights. Then I played against Yakface and his Tau-Orks. This battle report is against Blackmoor.
For those not familiar, let me first introduce my opponent, Allan (aka Blackmoor here on dakka). Blackmoor is a very good and very successful tournament Grey Knight player. He's attended many of the largest tournaments here in the US, including Adepticon, Nova, Wargamescon and the Bay Area Open. Last year in 2012, he played in Comikaze GT and placed 2nd. He also played in the Bay Area Open, which had some of the best players in the West Coast attend, and he came in 3rd out of 92 players, behind Christian's Mechanized Imperial Guards (1st) and Jame's Coteaz Grey Knights (2nd).
Blackmoor also played in the Bay Area Open 2011, placing 3rd there as well. But perhaps the biggest accomplishment in his tournament career would be in the 2011 Nova Open. There he played against a very, very competitive crowd and would go on unbeaten until he played the eventual winner of Nova, Tony Kopach, on the final table for the Nova Championship. Blackmoor ended up 5th overall out of a field of 204 players at the Nova Open. One of his more notable wins in the tournament included a win over Stelek's MSU space wolves (who ended up 3rd overall).
Back in 5th Edition, Blackmoor was mainly playing Draigowing Grey Knights. He was probably the person who brought Draigowing into the international spotlight as a competitive, tournament-caliber GK build. Early on, most people were saying that Draigowing was not competitive. Soon after Blackmoor achieved some success with his paladins in tournament play, we began to see many of the successful GK builds incorporate paladins to some extent. And for a while, Draigowing was considered probably one of the best GK builds until Coteaz-MSUGK's later overtook them to be arguably the most competitive GK build.
In 6th Ed., Blackmoor's Draigowing has evolved somewhat. Currently, he is running paladins but without Draigo. Instead, he is opting for Coteaz as his HQ of choice. The rest of his army, however, remains close to his original Draigowing build. The list he brought today against me is one he is considering for the Bay Area Open, though I don't believe it to be his finalized list for that event. Then again, my tyranids aren't exactly my finalized list either. I might not even bring my tyranids at all, though there is a good probability that I will. In any case, what you see today may be a preview of what you might see in the tournament because there is a good chance that our paths may cross again.
As we are both preparing for the Bay Area Open in March, it made sense that we should be playing the BAO scenarios.
Mission:Bay Area Open Scenario #3 - The Relic (4pts) & Big Guns Never Tire (3pts)
The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus
points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #3, The Relic
is worth 4-points and Big Guns Never Tire is worth 3-points. There are 4 objectives for Big Guns.
Tyranids: This is going to be a tough game for tyranids. Draigowing traditionally has been a very hard army for 5E tyranids to play against. Back in 5E, the lack of AP1/2 in the tyranid arsenal, the lack of insta-killing offense (other than the hive guards and the Swarmlord) and the paladin's Brotherhood Banner meant that it was just better for the bugs to avoid the deathstar. Back in 5E, I played against Janthkin's tyranids twice with my Draigowing. Once, he assaulted me with a Barbed Hierodule, several carnifexes, a tervigon and a tyrannofex (this was Apoc). Not only did my paladins survive, but they killed everything in combat and I won that game. The other game I played was at 2K. He hit me with Paroxysm, 20 poisoned, Prefered Enemy genestealers and ymgarls. They actually beat my paladins in combat! He later charged in with the Swarmlord as well. I did manage to finally kill all his assault units, but by that time, my army was just too depleted and Janthkin still had his tervigons, hive guards and gants remaining. Tyranids took that battle.
That was in 5th when bugs were actually worse against the knights. Now in 6th, they are actually much better equipped to deal with the knights. Psychic powers like Iron Arm means that we finally have a way to survive Nemesis Force Weapons and possibly ignore even their S5 shooting and power weapons. The ease of getting cover and Endurance means that we can possibly weather their very deadly shooting. And the lack of Draigo or grenades in this list means that the bugs have a chance in close combat. Finally, the ability to Smash means that any monstrous creature has a decent chance to kill 1 or 2 paladins in combat. Still not a favorable fight for the bugs in close combat, but at least it isn't as lopsided as it used to be back in 5th.
My strategy against the paladins is to try to tarpit them with gants and gargoyles. Then charge them with any Iron Armed MC's that I have if necessary. Flyrants will go around and kill his support units (i.e. his strikers) until I can coordinate an attack against his paladinstar with basically my entire army. The Doom, I'm afraid, won't be as useful in this game due to my opponent going first, Warp Quake and Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You.
I think the key to a tyranid victory comes down to their psychic powers. If I get favorable powers - in particular Iron Arm for my MC's and Endurance/Enfeeble for the zoans - then I have a good chance to take this game. If not, it's going to be a very tough fight. In any case, I think this battle may just be an eye-opening experience for my opponent.
Every turn, Coteaz would cast both of his psychic powers on the paladinstar. Paladins advance, as does 1 dread.
His shooting against my tervigon is underwhelming. With re-roll's to hit, ignoring cover and before my bugs have had a chance to cast any psychic powers, the paladins only take 2 wounds off of it (I believe there was only 1 rend out of all those shots).
Psyfleman dread shoots down 1 hive guard and strikers kill a couple of gargoyles.
Finally, his other strikers shoot down 4 gants.
With all his shooting, I thought I would be down a tervigon. Boy, I am fortunate not to have given up First Blood on that turn.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
I get 1 T9 flyrant and 1 T8 tervigon from my psychic powers. However, I believe the other tervigon perils while trying to cast Endurance. In any case, my bugs will cast their psychic powers each and every turn.
Tervigons spawn 4 and 12 gants. The left, wounded tervigon runs out after spawning.
Flyrants both swoop. I am going after a striker combat squad for a sure First Blood. Gants spread out.
The rest of the bugs move.
NOOOOO!!!!! I fire everything at that 1 darn combat squad - all biovores and both flyrants - and 1 guy survives!!!
Hive guards fire and only manage to stun the psyfleman, taking off 1 Hull Point.
Gribblies and tervies then run.
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
All the strikers cast Warp Quake in anticipation of the Doom.
Grey knights advance slightly. For some reason, my opponent is playing very cautiously. Then again, he probably didn't want to get assaulted by 4 monstrous creatures, of which 2 were Eternal Warrior, all at once.
His paladins opt to fire at the unwounded, T8 tervigon. They do 3 Wounds to it, all of which I believe were rending.
Strikers also shoot down 7 gants, but so far, no First Blood. I made sure of that by always positioning some of my gants out of LOS.
He also shoots down 3 gants (1 was just out of LOS, though it didn't matter as he killed exactly 3 out of the 4 gants so wounds were not allocated to the 4th anyways). He also takes out 4 gargoyles and the dreads kill another 1 hive guard.
Wow....all that shooting and so far, no First Blood.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
This time, my flyrant becomes T8 and my tervigon T9. The Doom fails to come in.
Non-warlord T8 flyrant glides and prepares for assault. I opt to continue swooping for my Warlord. Tervigon spawns 9 termagants.
Tyranids advance.
My strategy is to combo-assault those paladins with multiple units and to tie them up. Then hopefully next turn, my gants and/or tervigon can just go and pick up the Relic. It's going to be a tough charge, but if I can get my T9 tervigon into assault as well, then I just may be able to take that combat.
Someone finally gets First Blood as my Warlord shoots down his solitary psycannon striker.
Hive guards take off another 1HP from the damaged dread.
I then fire at his paladins with everything - flyrant, biovores, gants and gargoyles. Thanks to Precision Shot from the flyrant (BTW, this is the very first game that I actually used Precision Shot from it), I kill off the warding stave and hammer paladin. Now I can assault without him being able to allocate my MC hits on the stave.
And I do exactly that, charging my T8 flyrant in first to absorb the Overwatch. Hitting on 6's and wounding on 6's (the stormbolters can't hurt it), the paladins fail to even scratch it.
I issue a challenge, to which his Grandmaster (also his Warlord) accepts. Blackmoor manages to cast Hammerhand twice over Shadows in the Warp.
WTF!!! I kill off his Grandmaster easily enough (I even smashed when I didn't needed to). His Warlord, needing 6's to wound, then hits with everything and rolls 4 's to wound!!! Wow....Blackmoor caught a huge break here!!!
In any case, I manage to kill his Warlord.
His paladins would then go on to wipe out both the gargoyles and termagants.
Damn that Prescience! Without it, he wouldn't have wiped out my gribblies. And now his paladins are free. What a turn of events! I was hoping to tie up his paladinstar for a while but now they are free and I am down my Iron Armed flyrant.
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Coteaz casts all of his psychic powers despite Shadows. So far, my opponent have beaten the odds, making almost all of his psychic tests within Shadows range. Paladins advance and a halberd picks up the Relic.
2 out of the 3 units of strikers manage to cast Warp Quake. Bottom unit moves.
A dread grounds my Warlord. Paladins then finish him off with shooting.
Damn. I was hoping it would take much more than that to kill my Warlord (like, his entire army's shooting).
Strikers shoot down a few gants on my right.
On my left, strikers take off another 1W from the left tervigon and also kill 3 gants as well.
No assault because the paladins shoot at my flyrant.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
The Doom comes in and outside of Warp Quake. I opt to run with him instead but only run 1".
Tervigon spawns another 9 gants. BTW, he is T8 and with Endurance this turn (cast on him by the other tervigon). Tyranids then prepare for assault.
The rest of my bugs shuffle around.
Hive guard wrecks the dread.
I actually have a good turn of shooting and shoot down 3 paladins (of course some of them were already wounded). In any case he drops the Relic but we forget to put it down.
Bugs then assault. Left tervigon fails his charge, needing about 5". Gants also move on top of the Relic but cannot pick it up yet (that is only done in the Movement Phase).
Tervigon issues a challenge and Coteaz declines.
Tervigon would then smash 2 paladins to death. In return, they kill 7 gants from 2 different squads.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4. Coteaz finally fails to cast Prescience due to Shadows.
Grey knights shoot down my unengaged tervigon. Fortunately for the bugs, his explosion takes out 2 gants only.
Doom survives the dreadnought but takes 2W to strikers shooting.
Remember the miraculous assault in Turn 2? Maybe it was in this turn instead. I issue a challenge with the tervigon and he accepts with Coteaz. In any case, we kill each other off this turn and paladins finish off the gants and consolidate forwards (but not over the Relic).
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Crap! I've lost all my TMC's and my opponent has still got 3 paladins protecting the Relic. My only source of synapse left are my zoanthropes. This turn I opt not to cast Iron Arm, instead saving my warp charge for Smite. Bugs converge onto the paladins.
My goal isn't to kill them but to tie them up in combat and prevent them from getting the Relic. This way, I feel that I can still win the Secondary objective while drawing on the Primary (if neither of us gets the Relic).
Doom advances but his strikers pass the 3D6 leadership test against Spirit Leech. I then try to cast Psychic Shriek but fail due to being LD6 from the dread's Reinforced Aegis.
Biovores cause 1W to the paladins.
Then my last chance to wipe out those paladins get denied literally. His paladins deny both zoanthrope's attempts to Smite them. Grrrrr.....
I assault with both the zoans and hive guard.
I am fortunate to survive with only a wound on the hive guard (from the banner, the hammers missed). Zoanthropes make their saves against the other hammer.
Wow....I am still in this game. If my guys can hold for just 1 more turn and the game ends, then I think I've got this game.
Grey Knights 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
Strikers move off the hill to get away from the Doom.
They also start to head towards the objectives. The right-most unit needs to run in order to make it there.
Strikers shoot down 3 gants. Fortunately, I am about 11" away from the zoans and thus still fearless.
Dread once again fails to shoot down the Doom and so charges him to lock him up.
Then the inconceivable happens. I fail all my saves - my zoans against 2 hammer hits - and he wipes out all my guys as well the rest of my synapse!!!
He then consolidates on top of the Relic. However, he doesn't have it yet. He needs for the game to continue in order to be able to pick it up.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
So here's the situation.
I have no synapse. However, I believe I am ahead in Big Guns because even if we both tie with 2 objectives, I get +1 VP for killing his psyfleman dread. And currently, neither of us has the Relic. In order for me to win, I need the game to end this turn. Otherwise, it will probably be a crushing victory for my opponent.
I then go to test for Instinctive Behaviour....and fail every single test for every single unit.
Biovores shoot at the closest target, which is his paladins. I cause 1W to them but they are otherwise ok.
That's it.
We then roll to see if the game continues and it comes out to a !!!
Blackmoor thinks it is a tie. We both have Warlord. I have Linebreaker with the Doom and mycetic spore in his deployment zone. My opponent thought he had First Blood when he killed my gants, but I remind him that I killed his combat squad first with my Warlord.
Also, my opponent forgot that Heavy Supports were worth +1 VP in Big Guns (which was probably why he never bothered to shoot at my biovores with his psyfleman dread). So he was thinking that we tied on Big Guns as well with 2 objectives each.
So Blackmoor has got both of his objectives.
My biovores are holding my objectives here, and.....
....what, wait....nnnnoooooooooooooooooo!!!!! I forgot to run towards my objective!!!!
Tyranids: Just as I expected. Draigowing is still a tough army for tyranids to play against, but not entirely impossible. I think that if the mission was anything other than the Relic, my bugs would actually have a very good chance against this army. However, the Relic (along with Purge the Alien) is probably their 2 strongest missions. Basically, 1 objective or less and it favors the paladins. 2+ objectives favors the bugs.
Blackmoor played a solid game. Other than the fact that he didn't really pay attention to the mission "details", he did what his army does best - to control the center and to shoot down the enemy. I felt that I played ok as well. Had the Relic not been the Primary, I would have done as some of the readers here suggested - give up the Relic and have my flyrants surgically strike at his strikers and dreads. But because the Relic was more important than Big Guns, I had to make a play for the Relic. My strategy was to tie them up and honestly, it should have worked. Then again, this game was a game of ups and downs and a few crucial rolls just didn't go my way. Que sera sera.
BTW, some of the extreme dice included:
- Paladins shot at my tervigon before I could cast my psychic powers. With Prescience and the Ignore Cover power, he only managed to put 2W on my tervigon.
- I fired my entire army into 1 5-man combat squad and couldn't kill it (1 survivor).
- His Overwatch took off 3W from a T8 flyrant (yet his normal shooting can only take off 2W from a T6 tervigon?!?).
- I wounded his warding stave 3 times with Precision Shots from my flyrant. He would then fail 2 of his 2+ saves.
- Zoanthropes could have potentially finished off the 3 paladins (all with 1W on each) but he denies both attempts to Smite him.
Overall, it was a great game against a very good opponent. I look forwards to a potential rematch at the Bay Area Open.
I think marines (even grey knights) just don't have the staying power against tyranids at the moment. The tyranid might not have enough dakka to bring down the terminator death star, but it can only be in one place at once. In a multiple objective game that is a disadvantage.
bogalubov wrote: I think marines (even grey knights) just don't have the staying power against tyranids at the moment. The tyranid might not have enough dakka to bring down the terminator death star, but it can only be in one place at once. In a multiple objective game that is a disadvantage.
Don't forget that the Primary objective is the Relic. If the paladinstar gets the relic, I'd be hard pressed to get it off their hands.
bogalubov wrote: I think marines (even grey knights) just don't have the staying power against tyranids at the moment. The tyranid might not have enough dakka to bring down the terminator death star, but it can only be in one place at once. In a multiple objective game that is a disadvantage.
Don't forget that the Primary objective is the Relic. If the paladinstar gets the relic, I'd be hard pressed to get it off their hands.
If the terminators grab the objective things will be tough. With first blood likely going to the Grey Knights and the HQ hanging with the terminators preventing slay the war lord it might go the grey knight's way.
I think that if the Grey Knights focus on the relic (combined with first blood), it would be really difficult for the nids to claim it back. Combine that with first blood on an easy target, and it's gonna be tough for the 'nids to come through
Looks like a good set-up, I'm thinking this will swing the GK's way, as the Psydreads have a good chance of at least grounding the Flyrants, while the lack of Henchmen or other squishy T3 reduces the damage possibly taken from those Biovores. I'm a bit confused as to why he's taken Corteaz though: no Henchmen in the list and apart form the re-roll to Seize the Initiative, I'm not sure what he adds to the list. The only possible thing I can see him being useful in this list is to gib the DoM after he arrives due to I've Been Expecting You.
Valkyrie wrote: I'm a bit confused as to why he's taken Corteaz though: no Henchmen in the list and apart form the re-roll to Seize the Initiative, I'm not sure what he adds to the list. The only possible thing I can see him being useful in this list is to gib the DoM after he arrives due to I've Been Expecting You.
2x psychic powers likely including prescience on the paladin star isn't to be sneezed at.
Looking forward to this one, I think Nids will take it if they get a couple of enfeebles. By reputation I think Blackmoor should put up a great fight and I'd like to see GK win this.
Valkyrie wrote: Looks like a good set-up, I'm thinking this will swing the GK's way, as the Psydreads have a good chance of at least grounding the Flyrants, while the lack of Henchmen or other squishy T3 reduces the damage possibly taken from those Biovores. I'm a bit confused as to why he's taken Corteaz though: no Henchmen in the list and apart form the re-roll to Seize the Initiative, I'm not sure what he adds to the list. The only possible thing I can see him being useful in this list is to gib the DoM after he arrives due to I've Been Expecting You.
Because he is considering the current tournament meta. This is one of his TAC lists that he is preparing for the BAO. And one of the more dominant builds that we all can expect to see there are daemons. Coteaz is his solution to daemons, but not only that. With Coteaz's psychic powers, he will help any shooty GK build - against daemons, against hordes and also against flyers. Currently, Coteaz is one of the best all-purpose GKHQ's, especially for his cost. Just making henchmen scoring is the cherry on top.
I am really excitied to see how this one turns out!
Valkyrie wrote: Looks like a good set-up, I'm thinking this will swing the GK's way, as the Psydreads have a good chance of at least grounding the Flyrants,
Also do not forget that they make anything that shoots a psychic power within 12" of them do so at -4 LD (which slows down enfeeble, but does nothing to stop iron arm). I actually wanted to move toward Dreadknights, but I do not own any. I still like dreadnaughts though, and they add much needed ranged anti-tank fire to the list.
while the lack of Henchmen or other squishy T3 reduces the damage possibly taken from those Biovores. I'm a bit confused as to why he's taken Corteaz though: no Henchmen in the list and apart form the re-roll to Seize the Initiative, I'm not sure what he adds to the list. The only possible thing I can see him being useful in this list is to gib the DoM after he arrives due to I've Been Expecting You.
As JY2 said, he is such a bargain for only 100 points in a take-all-comers list. He is mostly for combating demons though because if they go first I need some protection from flamers since I do not have Warp Quake up yet. For his 2 divination powers, stats, equipment, and special ablities he is a must-have even without Henchmen.
Voted Tyranids. I play against Draigowing almost weekly and love to see those Paladins lose. I tend to edge out my victories due to mobility, but Relic will make it a tough battle.
Are the dreads (scoring because of big guns) able to pick up the relic? If so, the 'nids could be in trouble if focussed fire/force weapons can bring down the big bugs.
I am looking forward to the this BR, it should be one hell of game.
As to who will win, i think the bugs will have the advantage if they get the right Psychic powers, Endurance and Enfeeble. The elite nature of GK could be its down fall if Blackmoor has a round of bad dice, he will have to make the most of Turn 1.
DexKivuli wrote: Are the dreads (scoring because of big guns) able to pick up the relic? If so, the 'nids could be in trouble if focussed fire/force weapons can bring down the big bugs.
IIRC, the missions are separate in that the benefits do not cross over from mission to mission.
As to who will win, i think the bugs will have the advantage if they get the right Psychic powers, Endurance and Enfeeble. The elite nature of GK could be its down fall if Blackmoor has a round of bad dice, he will have to make the most of Turn 1.
I dunno about that, just keep in mind that casting on the palladins or any unit in 12' of the dreads will drop the psyker's leadership by 4 and that the unit that is joined by Coteaz will DTW on a 4+ so good chance things will go wrong there to.
I am more thinking how much iron arms wil be rolled, that will be the key and how much kills Doctor Doom will do when he comes down...
I apologize, but I didn't have time at all today to really work on the batrep. I will try to get it out early tomorrow. Sorry for the wait.
DexKivuli wrote: Are the dreads (scoring because of big guns) able to pick up the relic? If so, the 'nids could be in trouble if focussed fire/force weapons can bring down the big bugs.
No. The dreads will only be scoring for the Big Guns Never Tire scenario.
As to who will win, i think the bugs will have the advantage if they get the right Psychic powers, Endurance and Enfeeble. The elite nature of GK could be its down fall if Blackmoor has a round of bad dice, he will have to make the most of Turn 1.
I dunno about that, just keep in mind that casting on the palladins or any unit in 12' of the dreads will drop the psyker's leadership by 4 and that the unit that is joined by Coteaz will DTW on a 4+ so good chance things will go wrong there to.
I am more thinking how much iron arms wil be rolled, that will be the key and how much kills Doctor Doom will do when he comes down...
not always a 4+ DTW as a lv 2 psyker will make you deny on 5's again as you are equal. Only 4+ if you are rolling against a lv 1 casting on you. If you are like a lv 3 liby though, you'll get the 4+ vs a lv2
Really looking forwards to this one Jy2 and blackmoore.
Also, blackmoore, do you have any critiques or additions you'd like to make to the giant GK thread on the tactics page? I'm always interested in hearing from other people's perspectives.
Looking forward to this game. Will be interesting to see how a quasi Draigowing works without the man himself. Run a Dragiowing myself so i have got my fingers crossed for the Knights but the bugs look pretty formidable.
As to who will win, i think the bugs will have the advantage if they get the right Psychic powers, Endurance and Enfeeble. The elite nature of GK could be its down fall if Blackmoor has a round of bad dice, he will have to make the most of Turn 1.
I dunno about that, just keep in mind that casting on the palladins or any unit in 12' of the dreads will drop the psyker's leadership by 4 and that the unit that is joined by Coteaz will DTW on a 4+ so good chance things will go wrong there to.
I am more thinking how much iron arms wil be rolled, that will be the key and how much kills Doctor Doom will do when he comes down...
not always a 4+ DTW as a lv 2 psyker will make you deny on 5's again as you are equal. Only 4+ if you are rolling against a lv 1 casting on you. If you are like a lv 3 liby though, you'll get the 4+ vs a lv2
Really looking forwards to this one Jy2 and blackmoore.
Also, blackmoore, do you have any critiques or additions you'd like to make to the giant GK thread on the tactics page? I'm always interested in hearing from other people's perspectives.
Don't forget the GKGM and the paladins are psykers as well. I believe he would get a Deny on a 3+ or maybe even 2+ (would have to check on the BRB which I don't have with me currently).
But more importantly, my Enfeebles are also on the units with Iron Arm. Guess which one I cast every turn?
jy2 wrote: (From bottom of turn 2) And I do exactly that, charging my T8 flyrant in first to absorb the Overwatch. Hitting on 6's and wounding on 6's (the stormbolters can't hurt it), the paladins fail to even scratch it.
That was when I rolled all of those 6s that I have not been getting on the Tervigons. On overwatch with 6s to hit (with a re-roll due to prescience) I ended up with about 8 hits, and of those 3 rended. That is why my Grandmaster was able to kill the iron-armed Hive Tyrant with only one wound (who needed a 6 to wound also).
I thought I could take the Hive Tyrant anyways with the amount of Hammers that I had, but since he only had one wound left I thought I would trade my grandmaster for him and limit the amount of damage that he could do. I hate Iron Armed hive tyrants because strength 8 doubles out paladins and they can kill a lot of them in a hurry.
jy2 wrote: (From bottom of turn 2) And I do exactly that, charging my T8 flyrant in first to absorb the Overwatch. Hitting on 6's and wounding on 6's (the stormbolters can't hurt it), the paladins fail to even scratch it.
That was when I rolled all of those 6s that I have not been getting on the Tervigons. On overwatch with 6s to hit (with a re-roll due to prescience) I ended up with about 8 hits, and of those 3 rended. That is why my Grandmaster was able to kill the iron-armed Hive Tyrant with only one wound (who needed a 6 to wound also).
I thought I could take the Hive Tyrant anyways with the amount of Hammers that I had, but since he only had one wound left I thought I would trade my grandmaster for him and limit the amount of damage that he could do. I hate Iron Armed hive tyrants because strength 8 doubles out paladins and they can kill a lot of them in a hurry.
Was that what happened? Then perhaps that miraculous killing in assault was with another MC? I seemed to recall that, needing 6's to wound in combat, you rolled 3-4 of them and killed my MC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vemlin wrote: Why didn't you allocate one of the wounds to the banner instead of a hammer? Didn't his list say there were 4 hammers in the group?
Because only 3 of them were precision shots, of which I allocated to the Warding Stave because I was going to charge the unit. He then failed 2 out of the 3 saves. The hammer died because he was the closest model to my shooting.
jy2 wrote: (From bottom of turn 2) And I do exactly that, charging my T8 flyrant in first to absorb the Overwatch. Hitting on 6's and wounding on 6's (the stormbolters can't hurt it), the paladins fail to even scratch it.
That was when I rolled all of those 6s that I have not been getting on the Tervigons. On overwatch with 6s to hit (with a re-roll due to prescience) I ended up with about 8 hits, and of those 3 rended. That is why my Grandmaster was able to kill the iron-armed Hive Tyrant with only one wound (who needed a 6 to wound also).
I thought I could take the Hive Tyrant anyways with the amount of Hammers that I had, but since he only had one wound left I thought I would trade my grandmaster for him and limit the amount of damage that he could do. I hate Iron Armed hive tyrants because strength 8 doubles out paladins and they can kill a lot of them in a hurry.
But tbh you used extreme luck, you could ofcourse cast hammerhand and then autocast forceweapon activation due to banner and kill that flyrant with one wound. To bad you could not charge those psyke out grenades would have been nasty to all those Psykers...
jy2 wrote: (From bottom of turn 2) And I do exactly that, charging my T8 flyrant in first to absorb the Overwatch. Hitting on 6's and wounding on 6's (the stormbolters can't hurt it), the paladins fail to even scratch it.
That was when I rolled all of those 6s that I have not been getting on the Tervigons. On overwatch with 6s to hit (with a re-roll due to prescience) I ended up with about 8 hits, and of those 3 rended. That is why my Grandmaster was able to kill the iron-armed Hive Tyrant with only one wound (who needed a 6 to wound also).
I thought I could take the Hive Tyrant anyways with the amount of Hammers that I had, but since he only had one wound left I thought I would trade my grandmaster for him and limit the amount of damage that he could do. I hate Iron Armed hive tyrants because strength 8 doubles out paladins and they can kill a lot of them in a hurry.
But tbh you used extreme luck, you could ofcourse cast hammerhand and then autocast forceweapon activation due to banner and kill that flyrant with one wound. To bad you could not charge those psyke out grenades would have been nasty to all those Psykers...
No, the flyrant was Eternal Warrior due to Iron Arm so he could not have insta-killed it with his force weapons.
Valek wrote: But tbh you used extreme luck, you could ofcourse cast hammerhand and then autocast forceweapon activation due to banner and kill that flyrant with one wound. To bad you could not charge those psyke out grenades would have been nasty to all those Psykers...
The Paladins (with their one warp charge) can either cast Hammerhand or activate the banner. Since the TMCs that I fought had Iron Arm and not only had a huge toughness, but eternal warrior. I was better off casting hammerhand to not only wound the big bugs, but help clear out the little ones.
Valek wrote: But tbh you used extreme luck, you could ofcourse cast hammerhand and then autocast forceweapon activation due to banner and kill that flyrant with one wound. To bad you could not charge those psyke out grenades would have been nasty to all those Psykers...
The Paladins with there one warp charge can either cast Hammerhand or activate the banner. Since the TMCs that I fought had Iron Arm and not only had a huge toughness, but eternal warrior. I was better off casting hammerhand to not only wound the big bugs, but help clear out the little ones.
Couldn't the GKGM cast Hammerhand, or does that not affect units who aren't in the challenge or something along those lines?
Valek wrote: But tbh you used extreme luck, you could ofcourse cast hammerhand and then autocast forceweapon activation due to banner and kill that flyrant with one wound. To bad you could not charge those psyke out grenades would have been nasty to all those Psykers...
The Paladins with there one warp charge can either cast Hammerhand or activate the banner. Since the TMCs that I fought had Iron Arm and not only had a huge toughness, but eternal warrior. I was better off casting hammerhand to not only wound the big bugs, but help clear out the little ones.
Couldn't the GKGM cast Hammerhand, or does that not affect units who aren't in the challenge or something along those lines?
He did.
Casting the powers was still a little iffy with Shadows in the Warp since I was testing on 3 dice. So I normally only got one off which is just enough to wound the big bugs.
One of the things I find particularly interesting about 40k, is the difference between concentrations of power (e.g. Paladinstars, flyrants, tervigons) and blobs (e.g. Ork boys, Imperial Guard).
When things are quite concentrated, the outlying rolls matter more (since you're rolling fewer dice/have fewer wounds). Rolling a few 1's to save on terminators can be annoying, or a few higher than normal rends against a tervigon.
The interesting thing here is that there were concentrations on both sides (paladinstar v tervigons). This creates opportunities for both sides to respond in interesting ways when those outlying numbers start appearing... thus the resulting paladin-zoanthrope/hiveguard CC.
Whoever wins, it makes things fun. More fun (in my opinion) than a blob v blob combat where you are more likely to expect a 'statistical average' result to be borne out.
DexKivuli wrote: One of the things I find particularly interesting about 40k, is the difference between concentrations of power (e.g. Paladinstars, flyrants, tervigons) and blobs (e.g. Ork boys, Imperial Guard).
When things are quite concentrated, the outlying rolls matter more (since you're rolling fewer dice/have fewer wounds). Rolling a few 1's to save on terminators can be annoying, or a few higher than normal rends against a tervigon.
The interesting thing here is that there were concentrations on both sides (paladinstar v tervigons). This creates opportunities for both sides to respond in interesting ways when those outlying numbers start appearing... thus the resulting paladin-zoanthrope/hiveguard CC.
Whoever wins, it makes things fun. More fun (in my opinion) than a blob v blob combat where you are more likely to expect a 'statistical average' result to be borne out.
In theory it's more fun, but I just get so angry when I roll snake eyes from a bolter with my paladins compared to losing 12 gaunts.
Casting the powers was still a little iffy with Shadows in the Warp since I was testing on 3 dice. So I normally only got one off which is just enough to wound the big bugs.
And I must say you did a fine job of passing most of them.
Valek wrote: yeah sorry forgot about the eternal warrior...
No worries. A lot of times, I also forget about some of the secondary effects of my psychic powers, like It Will Not Die! for Endurance and Fleet for Warp Speed.
DexKivuli wrote: One of the things I find particularly interesting about 40k, is the difference between concentrations of power (e.g. Paladinstars, flyrants, tervigons) and blobs (e.g. Ork boys, Imperial Guard).
When things are quite concentrated, the outlying rolls matter more (since you're rolling fewer dice/have fewer wounds). Rolling a few 1's to save on terminators can be annoying, or a few higher than normal rends against a tervigon.
The interesting thing here is that there were concentrations on both sides (paladinstar v tervigons). This creates opportunities for both sides to respond in interesting ways when those outlying numbers start appearing... thus the resulting paladin-zoanthrope/hiveguard CC.
Whoever wins, it makes things fun. More fun (in my opinion) than a blob v blob combat where you are more likely to expect a 'statistical average' result to be borne out.
Yeah, with Elite armies (or even an army such as my bugs with several monstrous creatures), the effects of dice are more greatly amplified. It is less forgiving for mistakes and/or bad dice than an army with lots of units or models (i.e. MSU or green tide, for example). But this game was a game of both ups and downs for both sides. Perhaps because of that, I felt the game kind of evened out.
Yeah, with Elite armies (or even an army such as my bugs with several monstrous creatures), the effects of dice are more greatly amplified. It is less forgiving for mistakes and/or bad dice than an army with lots of units or models (i.e. MSU or green tide, for example). But this game was a game of both ups and downs for both sides. Perhaps because of that, I felt the game kind of evened out.
Yeah, that the tricky thing about elite armies (and why I personally don't like units that are too elite): the downside risk can be quite severe, while there isn't much upside risk. Rolling a few 1s on your terminator saves is devastating, while a couple of extra 6s just get sept up in your 2+ dice pool. Blobs, or even generic troops, tend to have relatively even distributions between the costs anfd benefits of rolling a few extra 6s or 1s.
This was an awesome game, I enjoyed reading it a lot. How close things came out - the number of small plays that made a difference, and the number of dice rolls that really impacted the game - shows how evenly matched these two armies are.
SabrX wrote: Aww so close! Forgetting to run cost you.
Reminds me of your other btrp where Kingsley forgot line breaker, which could have won him that game.
Very intense game with the victor hanging in the balance. Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, what a bone-headed mistake, maybe because we were both pretty laid back and playing more casually than competitively. Actually we both overlooked this. Blackmoor had thought that I won the game as well. I then discovered my mistake when I went to take a picture of it.
Blackmoor actually forgot about a couple of things. First of all he forgot to pick up the Relic (or maybe it was on purpose?) when he had the chance. Then he forgot the Heavy Supports were worth VP's in Big Guns, kind of similar to Kingsley forgetting about Linebreaker. I was actually quite confident of the win had the game ended on T5 (and I was playing for the game to end on T5....I wouldn't have survived after that). And then I go and make one of the dumbest plays that I've made in quite some time.
Yeah, that the tricky thing about elite armies (and why I personally don't like units that are too elite): the downside risk can be quite severe, while there isn't much upside risk. Rolling a few 1s on your terminator saves is devastating, while a couple of extra 6s just get sept up in your 2+ dice pool. Blobs, or even generic troops, tend to have relatively even distributions between the costs anfd benefits of rolling a few extra 6s or 1s.
This was an awesome game, I enjoyed reading it a lot. How close things came out - the number of small plays that made a difference, and the number of dice rolls that really impacted the game - shows how evenly matched these two armies are.
That's why powers like Prescience, master-crafting, the Grand Strategy trait to let your re-roll 1's to wound or the psychic power that lets your librarian re-roll his saves or force your opponents to re-roll their successful saves are so good to armies such as these. They really skewer the bell curve in your (elite army's) favor.
They are much more evenly matched nowadays than they were back in 5th. However, depending on matchups and the psychic powers for the bugs, I think certain builds will definitely have an advantage over other builds. Draigowing, or a paladinstar, will still give bugs problems in terms of fighting them. However, in a single mission, objectives-based scenario, IMO bugs will have a slight advantage.
Don't fret the forgetfulness, Jim - I'm not sure you're allowed to Run those 'gants anyway. If you had failed an IB check (and assuming that that was area terrain), you only have permission to run towards area terrain. If you're already in it, I don't think you have permission to Run.
Very interesting game. Allan swept me off the board in 5e at the BAO with a Draigowing list; I'm not surprised he's still finding ways to make it work this edition.
Janthkin wrote: Don't fret the forgetfulness, Jim - I'm not sure you're allowed to Run those 'gants anyway. If you had failed an IB check (and assuming that that was area terrain), you only have permission to run towards area terrain. If you're already in it, I don't think you have permission to Run.
Very interesting game. Allan swept me off the board in 5e at the BAO with a Draigowing list; I'm not surprised he's still finding ways to make it work this edition.
I think that there is a little wiggle room here and perhaps I should ask this in YMDC, but my gants weren't completely in terrain. Most of them were on the border and 1 might even be outside of terrain. Anyways, could they possibly run so that each model is completely inside terrain? If so, then I would have made it to the objective as I was less than 1" away from it.
Yeah, Draigowing was rough for bugs in 5E. As I recall, someone's tyranids also swept my Draigowing off the board. Draigowing has been getting a lot of bad press since the recent 6E FAQ's, but the truth is, they are still a good army and many armies will still have problems against them.
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Valek wrote: Supprised about the pallistar, it did really good... could this be a competitor?
Depends on what you put as support for those paladins. I think that they are quite viable, but the trick is to not overdo that paladinstar. You need to support them with a lot of complementary units. Paladins and strikers like Blackmoors and my own is one way to do it. Another is to add the cheaper henchmen units or allied IG. I'm also considering necron allies for my Draigowing. The mobility of night scythes and wraiths make for a perfect complement to the much slower paladins.
Draigo is still good however for his cost I believe the lack of ap2 is probably why hes a tad less popular these days. Characters like belial even have a shot at tying him up or dare I say beating him and are half the cost. At this point level though I would guess mostly it's cost.
woot, I guessed correctly for once. (mostly cause I'm too much of a die hard GK, hell I practically wrote a book on them now lol)
Dang good job making use of pallies though. I've not fared well with them since people have all learned how to frag them now with anti-tank weapons and generally them being so expensive, I don't have alot of tanks that come with the list lol.
On the flip side, I've been doing decent with just 1-2 pally as objective campers. And possibly see myself using a group of them with cheap henchmen vehicle spam. It'll force the enemy to split their anti-tank fire at least.
Dozer Blades wrote: Grand Strategy can make them always scoring if Alan rolls high enough.
jy2 wrote: For Grand Strategy, he makes his paladins scoring.
I could if I could roll above a 2, but I can't.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
I was talking to a friend about this. We were saying as the meta changed to take out MSU and hordes it will almost sertainly change back to armored units to take advantage of the lack of Anti-tank weapons on the field. Swings and Roundabouts
Dozer Blades wrote: Grand Strategy can make them always scoring if Alan rolls high enough.
jy2 wrote: For Grand Strategy, he makes his paladins scoring.
I could if I could roll above a 2, but I can't.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
BRB rules and new codices determines metagame. Vehicles took a hit in 6th ed and fielding light AV vehicles is risky considering everyone mission has First Blood. There's also cost of transitioning from MSU to horde/foot-slogging list that plays a major role. It takes time and money to buy, build, and paint a horde army. I was alarmed by the number of mech players that showed up to Game Kastle's recent tournament, though many of them have added a couple foot units. It could be the reasons I stated above, but it could also be the difficulty of completing a full timed tournament match.
This was my first game after my annual winter break from the game. I was a little rusty and I need to re-read the missions. I could have passed off the relic, and I did not know that heavy support choices gave 1 VP in big guns never tire.
I also am very lackadaisical about the victory points. I need to have a fast moving unit or two in my list for line-breaker (I think I will convert a strike squad to interceptors), and I ignored first blood. I could have killed his tervagon that only had 3 wounds left but I ignored it because it was out of gants. I also need to be more protective of my Warlord and it should have been Coteaz since he is more likely to be in the rear with the gear.
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tuiman wrote: Nice report, almost thought nids would have it.
Is lack of draigo just due to lack of points, or is the gm better?
Draigo vs. Grandmaster
There are a lot of arguments for both.
With Draigo he makes the Paladins scoring so he can use grand strategy for something else. He can also buy solodins if that is what you want. He is still a beast in assault and is very durable. His downsides though are points, and lack of AP2 weaponry. He also tends to make you want to keep your paladins together instead of combat-squading (which I prefer to do but with this mission and opponent it made more sense to keep them together).
You have to take a Grandmaster if you do not have Draigo because you have to use Grand Strategy to make them troops. The Grandmaster is a lot more customizable though than Draigo is because you can give him grenades, servo skulls, and you get to choose his weapons.
Next time I use a Grandmater he will have at least Rad Grenades and possibly a halberd to give anyone who wants to challenge him second thoughts.
Well anyhow you marked a win which is not bad considering those nids are of the better lists in the current meta.
It sure did give me inspiration to finish glueing my Terminators...
I think even better for the Grandmaster would be to give him Blind grenades, altough i can see the fun with rad grenades.
Secondly you dont need jumpers for linebreaker, just keep a unit in reserve and deepstrike them behind enemy lines, you can manipulate the roll with your grandmaster his psychic power.
I would take both psykotropic and rad grenades. GK are not as strong in 6th... These really help a lot.... Just think what they could have done for you in this game.
I would keep the sword on the GM for the 3++ save. Halberds work better for the Paladins.
I asked before but you must have missed it... Is your army counts as Heresy Thousand Sons? I have seen pictures of them before but never close up... They look great and I dig the conversions.
Hindsight being what it is, I don't think the Tyranids should have assaulted at all on turn 2. Keep on swooping the Tyrants around & shooting, and force the Paladins to pick a single unit per turn to destroy. One of the problems an elite list like this one has is the inability to engage a lot of targets simultaneously - he can only hit a few units at a time. Since kill points weren't in play, and First Blood was likely to fall to the 'nids, then just contain the Paladins somewhere in the middle of the board, and focus on wiping out the Strike squads, to guarantee the Big Guns points (and Linebreaker).
Feeding units into the blender that is a Prescience-backed Paladin squad w/Banner is demonstrably painful.
Yeah I wouldnt have assaulted either... that was playing directly to the strength of the PaladinStar. These kind of Nid builds are okay in melee but they are not superstars.
I asked before but you must have missed it... Is your army counts as Heresy Thousand Sons? I have seen pictures of them before but never close up... They look great and I dig the conversions.
Ah yes, I was looking for that post to answer.
No, they are just red Grey Knights.
I do have a pre-heresy thousand sons that have been waiting several years to be worked on and I thought that the chaos codex might spark some life into them. Unfortunaly the Tzeentch units are a bit lackluster so if I do choose to use them this year (it is between them and eldar right now) they will be Grey Knights.
Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Valek wrote: Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Yes, but they need to stop & pickup the Relic, and Jim had enough units already to just bubble-wrap the Paladins for the rest of the game, between the Gargoyles & Termagants.
Valek wrote: Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Yes, but they need to stop & pickup the Relic, and Jim had enough units already to just bubble-wrap the Paladins for the rest of the game, between the Gargoyles & Termagants.
I am not so sure.
I can pretty much wipe out whatever charges me so the paladins would not be tied up. I just have to knock down the Hive Tyrant and take him down with shooting. Not only would my paladins shoot him but my whole army would be thrown at him.
I think he did the right thing, it is just that JY2 got unlucky with my overwatch shooting. He charged me with strength 8. toughness 8, eternal warrior Hive Tyrant with Shadows in the Warp and if I did not do 3 wounds to him from overwatch, and get really lucky to get a "6" on the 2 wounds that the Grandmaster did to him he would have done a ton of damage to my paladins.
Oh, and if the Tyrant had lived, he would have locked my paladins up in combat and then his other tyrant wound not have been shot down and killed and have been able to go through all of my strike squads. .
You dont drop relic, unless you kill they guy carrying them? and that should be no issue, althought I understand what you would want to do, still after one unit shooting would everytime kill the closest unit easely
Valek wrote: Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Yes, but they need to stop & pickup the Relic, and Jim had enough units already to just bubble-wrap the Paladins for the rest of the game, between the Gargoyles & Termagants.
I am not so sure.
I can pretty much wipe out whatever charges me so the paladins would not be tied up. I just have to knock down the Hive Tyrant and take him down with shooting. Not only would my paladins shoot him but my whole army would be thrown at him.
I think he did the right thing, it is just that JY2 got unlucky with my overwatch shooting. He charged me with strength 8. toughness 8, eternal warrior Hive Tyrant with Shadows in the Warp and if I did not do 3 wounds to him from overwatch, and get really lucky to get a "6" on the 2 wounds that the Grandmaster did to him he would have done a ton of damage to my paladins.
Dozer Blades wrote: Grand Strategy can make them always scoring if Alan rolls high enough.
jy2 wrote: For Grand Strategy, he makes his paladins scoring.
I could if I could roll above a 2, but I can't.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
I bet those were the Chicago guys. They have tweaked their 5th edition MSU lists for 6th and have kept on playing. People have taken the Hordes out against them at the AWC tourney's and that hasn't worked to well. Whether it was time constraints or whatever. Necrons have spanked them around consistently though.
Hmmm... the king of GBU was a Necron Player who brought a balanced list. Hans also scored high with his balanced necron list. Massed tesla doesn't seem to discriminate between infantry and tanks. I can't recall who they faced though, other than Hans ran into a DA list with a 4++ IG infantry blob.
Valek wrote: Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Yes, but they need to stop & pickup the Relic, and Jim had enough units already to just bubble-wrap the Paladins for the rest of the game, between the Gargoyles & Termagants.
I am not so sure.
I can pretty much wipe out whatever charges me so the paladins would not be tied up. I just have to knock down the Hive Tyrant and take him down with shooting. Not only would my paladins shoot him but my whole army would be thrown at him.
I think he did the right thing, it is just that JY2 got unlucky with my overwatch shooting. He charged me with strength 8. toughness 8, eternal warrior Hive Tyrant with Shadows in the Warp and if I did not do 3 wounds to him from overwatch, and get really lucky to get a "6" on the 2 wounds that the Grandmaster did to him he would have done a ton of damage to my paladins.
Oh, and if the Tyrant had lived, he would have locked my paladins up in combat and then his other tyrant wound not have been shot down and killed and have been able to go through all of my strike squads. .
That's just it though - I believe shouldn't have charged you, period. Park those gargoyles 1" away to constrain Paladin movement. Now you can't advance, and can't get the Relic, until they're dead. Next turn, repeat with a unit of 'gants. And then again. Meantime, those two Flyrants focus on killing Strike squads and just plain ignore the Pallys. Make you kill units ONLY in your turn, instead of letting you kill them in his, too.
As I say, though, this benefits a lot from hindsight. (Plus Jim & I have some different approaches to how we play our Tyranids.) But Jim definitely should know how nasty Prescience + Overwatch can be; he beat me over the head with it just a couple weeks ago.
Janthkin wrote: That's just it though - I believe shouldn't have charged you, period. Park those gargoyles 1" away to constrain Paladin movement. Now you can't advance, and can't get the Relic, until they're dead. Next turn, repeat with a unit of 'gants. And then again. Meantime, those two Flyrants focus on killing Strike squads and just plain ignore the Pallys. Make you kill units ONLY in your turn, instead of letting you kill them in his, too.
As I say, though, this benefits a lot from hindsight. (Plus Jim & I have some different approaches to how we play our Tyranids.) But Jim definitely should know how nasty Prescience + Overwatch can be; he beat me over the head with it just a couple weeks ago.
I think both strategies have their merits and counters.
Screening the paladins is one of their weaknesses, but there are ways to counter it. I could have the strikes shoot the screening squad and then still multi-assault if the other units are close since I was within charge range of the relic. This is the disadvantage of going second is that I have 2 turns of movement to get close to the relic before he can screen me.
Also, even though the paladin deathstar seems like a monolithic unit, it is really 3 units in one (Grandmaster, Coteaz, and Paladins), and any/all of them can beat any of the tyranid units that do not have iron arm one-on-one. I can split off and charge multiple units and tie them up. He really does not have all that many units to hold me up for long.
Also if he is flying around and killing all of my strikes the relic then becomes a priority, and I have to take it and then shoot him off of his objectives in the late game but we will never know if he could have stopped me from doing that.
Distance is negligible when the Nids have Tervigons spawning Termagants 6" and then movement + run of Termagants. Gargoyles also have greater mobility. Flying MC can also be used as speed bumps.
Dozer Blades wrote: Grand Strategy can make them always scoring if Alan rolls high enough.
jy2 wrote: For Grand Strategy, he makes his paladins scoring.
I could if I could roll above a 2, but I can't.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
I bet those were the Chicago guys. They have tweaked their 5th edition MSU lists for 6th and have kept on playing. People have taken the Hordes out against them at the AWC tourney's and that hasn't worked to well. Whether it was time constraints or whatever. Necrons have spanked them around consistently though.
MSU is not viable any longer for many many reasons. 6th edition is very much so unforgiving.
Wow, lots of comments while I was away. Ok, let me address some of the questions in order. Later on, I will post my Post-game Analysis.
tuiman wrote: Nice report, almost thought nids would have it.
Is lack of draigo just due to lack of points, or is the gm better?
I still like Draigo. At the same time, Coteaz gives the unit/army a lot of utility and him combined with the Grandmaster isn't really that much more expensive than Draigo. I would mainly take the GKGM for Grand Strategy and probably some grenades. However, the advantage of Draigo is when you are dealing with shooty armies with a lot of high-strength low-AP weaponry (i.e. vendettas, broadsides, lascannon razorback-spam, melta-spam, etc.). That is where Draigo is most useful - in tanking those insta-killing enemy shots. Unfortunately, each build is somewhat situational depending on the matchup. In preparing for a tournament, you are going to have to anticipate what you think will be the predominant meta and go from there. In this case, Blackmoor is anticipating daemons to be the dominant build there and thus opted for Coteaz. On the other hand, if you think your meta (or the competitive meta) is still MSU razor-spam or similar builds, then you may want to consider Draigo.
Red Corsair wrote: Draigo is still good however for his cost I believe the lack of ap2 is probably why hes a tad less popular these days. Characters like belial even have a shot at tying him up or dare I say beating him and are half the cost. At this point level though I would guess mostly it's cost.
Yeah, he took a nerfbat with his sword being only AP3. Then again, so did many of the formerly uber characters - Mephiston, Vect, Celestine, etc. I don't think it is so much cost as it is anticipating the current competitive meta. Moreover, this edition is more about the shootying and Coteaz just makes the paladinstar that much stronger in shooting.
sudojoe wrote: woot, I guessed correctly for once. (mostly cause I'm too much of a die hard GK, hell I practically wrote a book on them now lol)
Dang good job making use of pallies though. I've not fared well with them since people have all learned how to frag them now with anti-tank weapons and generally them being so expensive, I don't have alot of tanks that come with the list lol.
On the flip side, I've been doing decent with just 1-2 pally as objective campers. And possibly see myself using a group of them with cheap henchmen vehicle spam. It'll force the enemy to split their anti-tank fire at least.
Some people will almost always vote for their army as long as there is a competent general behind it.
Actually, one of the builds that I am thinking about for my "new" Draigowing build is Draigowing with Coteaz-MSU henchmen. I think that it can still work. It will be a shooty build with Draigostar controlling the middle. It will suck in VP missions but otherwise, I think it will do alright.
I am curious if you and JY2 are seeing a bit of a rise in MSU mech army popularity lately. I was at the GBU two weekends ago and noticed several builds (IG, SW, and GK list of various allies) that incorpoated serveral transports in addition to Flyers. Some of the smaller RTT in my area are also seeing these lists. With people building for horde, it seems that several generals are opting for a mech alternative.
I am not seeing a rise in their popularity. As a matter of fact, I am seeing more people move away from a pure MSU build. A lot of players are moving more towards a hybrid MSU/horde army by adding IG blob squads to their MSU mix. MSU is still a very good build IMO. However, they are getting owned by necron flyer-spam in tournament play. This is probably one of the main reasons why people are moving away from such builds. They are trying to add more resiliency to their ground forces.
I was talking to a friend about this. We were saying as the meta changed to take out MSU and hordes it will almost sertainly change back to armored units to take advantage of the lack of Anti-tank weapons on the field. Swings and Roundabouts
The so-called "anti-meta" meta list.
MSU is still alive and very strong. However, they do have some bad matchups in tournament play, with necron flyer-spam being one of them. I always look at the army from a tournament perspective....that is, can this army do well consistently in a 7-8 game GT environment and against the other competitive builds. Such an army will have problems against perhaps 2 of the stronger tournament builds - necrons and daemons. Thus, I don't consider pure MSU to be a GT-winning army build anymore, though they certainly can win tournaments.
BRB rules and new codices determines metagame. Vehicles took a hit in 6th ed and fielding light AV vehicles is risky considering everyone mission has First Blood. There's also cost of transitioning from MSU to horde/foot-slogging list that plays a major role. It takes time and money to buy, build, and paint a horde army. I was alarmed by the number of mech players that showed up to Game Kastle's recent tournament, though many of them have added a couple foot units. It could be the reasons I stated above, but it could also be the difficulty of completing a full timed tournament match.
That is a very good point. It takes time and money to give your army a complete overhaul. Not many people will be doing that. Instead they will just make some modifications to their list. Many players are still running what is essentially their 5E lists updated to take advantage of some of the stronger elements of 6E. And for the people willing to update, why play your old army again when there are a bunch of new codices out? A lot of people that I know who are going for their "2nd" armies are going for the newer armies rather than a completely revamped version of their current army mainly for the sake of variety in gameplay and play-style.
You have to take a Grandmaster if you do not have Draigo because you have to use Grand Strategy to make them troops. The Grandmaster is a lot more customizable though than Draigo is because you can give him grenades, servo skulls, and you get to choose his weapons.
Actually, I would have to disagree here. I don't think that the paladins necessarily need to be scoring. They can function fine without Draigo or the GMIMO. As a matter of fact, my future "Draigowing" and "Crowe-Purifiers" will probably be without either Draigo or Crowe. I think all you need is Coteaz.
Here is a preview of what I am thinking of running:
The paladinstar here would be a suicide unit meant to rush the enemy and contest objectives.
Valek wrote: Well anyhow you marked a win which is not bad considering those nids are of the better lists in the current meta.
It sure did give me inspiration to finish glueing my Terminators...
I think even better for the Grandmaster would be to give him Blind grenades, altough i can see the fun with rad grenades.
Secondly you dont need jumpers for linebreaker, just keep a unit in reserve and deepstrike them behind enemy lines, you can manipulate the roll with your grandmaster his psychic power.
Mobility is definitely one of the weaknesses of this list. I actually agree here that you don't really need interceptors for linebreaker. Deepstriking is a tool when used properly could be very effective. Of course the trade-off in this case is that you will miss their firepower for several turns until they come in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dozer Blades wrote: I would take both psykotropic and rad grenades. GK are not as strong in 6th... These really help a lot.... Just think what they could have done for you in this game.
I would keep the sword on the GM for the 3++ save. Halberds work better for the Paladins.
I asked before but you must have missed it... Is your army counts as Heresy Thousand Sons? I have seen pictures of them before but never close up... They look great and I dig the conversions.
Here is a dilemma that I am finding with Draigowing. If you buff out your paladinstar and make them too tough - by adding apothecaries, multiple characters, psychic buffs, grenades, etc. - then you will just discourage your opponent from trying to kill them. How you beat Draigowing, or most deathstar armies, is to kill the support units. You make it too hard for your opponent to beat your deathstar and you are just making it easier for them to beat you because they will go after your support units (unless you are playing the Relic or Purge the Alien).
Honestly, I'd rather have my opponent focus their offense on my deathstar than to try to take out my support units in most missions besides the Relic.
Janthkin wrote: Hindsight being what it is, I don't think the Tyranids should have assaulted at all on turn 2. Keep on swooping the Tyrants around & shooting, and force the Paladins to pick a single unit per turn to destroy. One of the problems an elite list like this one has is the inability to engage a lot of targets simultaneously - he can only hit a few units at a time. Since kill points weren't in play, and First Blood was likely to fall to the 'nids, then just contain the Paladins somewhere in the middle of the board, and focus on wiping out the Strike squads, to guarantee the Big Guns points (and Linebreaker).
Feeding units into the blender that is a Prescience-backed Paladin squad w/Banner is demonstrably painful.
Basically, I had to make a choice. I could ignore his paladinstar and go for the rest of the army....but then I would be giving up the Relic, which is the Primary objective and thus worth more points. Or I could try to contain them. I chose the latter. My opponent actually had the advantage in First Blood because he was going first. 5 psycannons with re-rolls to hit and ignoring cover should have killed one of my big beasties and he actually had 2 turns to do so (because I couldn't kill his combat squad with my entire army's shooting on Turn 1). He also had the advantage in Warlord because his Warlord was protected by all those paladins and he had enough units to try to ground my Warlord (without Iron Arm!) and then to finish him off with the paladinstar.
I felt that feeding multiple units into his paladinstar, of which one was an Iron Armed MC in a challenge, should have been able to tie up his deathstar and also do a lot of damage. But the dice said otherwise.
Dozer Blades wrote: Yeah I wouldnt have assaulted either... that was playing directly to the strength of the PaladinStar. These kind of Nid builds are okay in melee but they are not superstars.
I had a very good chance to hold them up in combat as my flyrant was impervious to most of their attacks and I locked the hammerdins in combat with my gribblies (by moving into base with them). If Blackmoor had not sacrficed his Warlord in the challenge, I could have done some serious damage to his paladins with my flyrant, especially after I killed his warding stave with shooting. But that combat just wasn't meant to be. Tyranids aren't super-great in assault, but you'd be surprised how the gribblies can tie up your killers (i.e. hammers) and let your MC's go to town on the rest of the army.
If only my Warlord was a few inches closer, I would have charged his Warp-speed arse in there as well.
Valek wrote: Yeah that would be the tactic, but he has nothing to slow them down... they would kill and advance after that, then move in their turn ,destroy something again and proceed, no way you slow them down without thinning them out.
Yes, but they need to stop & pickup the Relic, and Jim had enough units already to just bubble-wrap the Paladins for the rest of the game, between the Gargoyles & Termagants.
Not really. One of my tervigons spawned out early on T1 with just 4 gants. His paladins were already very close to the Relic (maybe 1 movement phase away) and my gribblies were still kind of far out. I couldn't have screened them out from the Relic because had I done so, then he would have just multi-assaulted and then perhaps consolidated on top of the Relic thereafter.
Also, one thing that I didn't mention was that going up that hill took 1.5" of movement per level. That would have just made it harder for my gants to bubble wrap those pallies.
I can pretty much wipe out whatever charges me so the paladins would not be tied up. I just have to knock down the Hive Tyrant and take him down with shooting. Not only would my paladins shoot him but my whole army would be thrown at him.
I think he did the right thing, it is just that JY2 got unlucky with my overwatch shooting. He charged me with strength 8. toughness 8, eternal warrior Hive Tyrant with Shadows in the Warp and if I did not do 3 wounds to him from overwatch, and get really lucky to get a "6" on the 2 wounds that the Grandmaster did to him he would have done a ton of damage to my paladins.
Oh, and if the Tyrant had lived, he would have locked my paladins up in combat and then his other tyrant wound not have been shot down and killed and have been able to go through all of my strike squads. .
Yeah, I just needed my flyrant to survive just 1 more turn of combat. That would have made a huge difference, because next turn, you are looking at a possible assault by my Warlord with Warp Speed, 2 tervigons and some gants as well. Assuming that my guys would have been able to make the assault, my strategy would have been to wipe out those paladins with my entire army.
I bet those were the Chicago guys. They have tweaked their 5th edition MSU lists for 6th and have kept on playing. People have taken the Hordes out against them at the AWC tourney's and that hasn't worked to well. Whether it was time constraints or whatever. Necrons have spanked them around consistently though.
Not too familiar with your locale, but necrons are a bane to MSU armies. That's why many players have tweaked their lists somewhat to deal with them. Just look at Tony Kopach or Andrew Gonyo's GT-winning lists. They've added a horde element to their armies.
wyomingfox wrote: Hmmm... the king of GBU was a Necron Player who brought a balanced list. Hans also scored high with his balanced necron list. Massed tesla doesn't seem to discriminate between infantry and tanks. I can't recall who they faced though, other than Hans ran into a DA list with a 4++ IG infantry blob.
Yeah, teslas are the bomb. The only thing they can't handle all that well are AV14-spam, T8/9 monstrous creatures and pure horde armies like the Green Tide. Otherwise, I just love them.
jy2 wrote: Actually, I would have to disagree here. I don't think that the paladins necessarily need to be scoring. They can function fine without Draigo or the GMIMO. As a matter of fact, my future "Draigowing" and "Crowe-Purifiers" will probably be without either Draigo or Crowe. I think all you need is Coteaz.
Here is a preview of what I am thinking of running:
The paladinstar here would be a suicide unit meant to rush the enemy and contest objectives.
I would love to save 220 to 275 points by not taking a grandmaster/Draigo and spend it on another strike squad but I can't.
The reason why is that I have been tabled many times except for my paladins. The last time was against flying necrons who flew around and shot everything but the paladins. Just look at this game, you could have ignored my paladins and just kill everything else and you would have won if they were not troops.
jy2 wrote: Actually, I would have to disagree here. I don't think that the paladins necessarily need to be scoring. They can function fine without Draigo or the GMIMO. As a matter of fact, my future "Draigowing" and "Crowe-Purifiers" will probably be without either Draigo or Crowe. I think all you need is Coteaz.
Here is a preview of what I am thinking of running:
The paladinstar here would be a suicide unit meant to rush the enemy and contest objectives.
I would love to save 220 to 275 points by not taking a grandmaster/Draigo and spend it on another strike squad but I can't.
The reason why is that I have been tabled many times except for my paladins. The last time was against flying necrons who flew around and shot everything but the paladins. Just look at this game, you could have ignored my paladins and just kill everything else and you would have won if they were not troops.
Yea I have to agree, paladins who are not troops are very easy to ignore by a lot of lists.
I would love to save 220 to 275 points by not taking a grandmaster/Draigo and spend it on another strike squad but I can't.
The reason why is that I have been tabled many times except for my paladins. The last time was against flying necrons who flew around and shot everything but the paladins. Just look at this game, you could have ignored my paladins and just kill everything else and you would have won if they were not troops.
Yea I have to agree, paladins who are not troops are very easy to ignore by a lot of lists.
While having paladins scoring is definitely useful, especially in a mission such as the Relic, to me it isn't really mandatory. It really boils down to how you design your lists. The trick is not to overload your paladins to make them into a super unit. You need to invest the majority of your points into the so-called "support" units.
Then there are the 2 different builds - either a troop-centric build in which the troops are the majority of the army and its offense as well or the opposite, in which troops are quite minimal (but still resilient) and offense comes from the rest of the army. An example of a troop-centric build is your Draigowing army in which almost every unit is scoring or can be made scoring. Another example would be my striker-spam GK list in which the majority of my army and its offense is vested into my strike squads and their S5-stormbolters and psycannons.
Then the opposite - which I shall call the balanced hammer build - is to use minimal (but resilient) troops and invest the majority of the army into the Elites/FA/Heavy Supports for offense. 2 such examples are my wraithwing necrons, where I only use 4x5 warriors and mainly wraiths and tesla-destructors for offense. The warriors are resilient because they are transported in flyers, but the majority of the offense comes from the non-troop selections. Then there is my double-trouble Chaos list, where I use cheap but quite resilient troops in zombies and focus the majority of my offense on the 2 HQ's, the heldrakes/chaos spawns and obliterators - the non-troop units.
Both are a viable build. Where non-scoring paladins may be an issue in 1 or 2 scenarios, you do have the advantage of being able to play more aggressively with them. Who cares if they live or die, but if your opponent ignores them, then they can do a lot of damage. In any case, that is what I am going to try out when I go back to my Grey Knights after the BAO.
Of course at higher points games - maybe around 2K - then I can add in a GKGM to make them scoring.
Jy2 that would be again an army that would be eaten alive by Necrons, they just love all that low armour and they can easely dance around the pallystar, i do see however do it well against a lot of other things, however i think palladins need to be scoring.
Draigo tanking for a squad of purifiers (who's other half are also scoring and can end up sitting inside a chimera box of doom with 4 psycannons in a combat squad) + coteaz henchmen tanks + a few solo scoring pallies to hold objectives from even stuff like necron fliers as they are really easy to hide actually and usually can survive the one or two things that can see them may be very fun. with DK and psyfle dreads. probably not enough points for a storm raven however but may see if true after I build it.
I shall try this later. Sounds though like JY2 may use the pally bomb + just tanks though.
That's just it though - I believe shouldn't have charged you, period. Park those gargoyles 1" away to constrain Paladin movement. Now you can't advance, and can't get the Relic, until they're dead. Next turn, repeat with a unit of 'gants. And then again. Meantime, those two Flyrants focus on killing Strike squads and just plain ignore the Pallys. Make you kill units ONLY in your turn, instead of letting you kill them in his, too.
As I say, though, this benefits a lot from hindsight. (Plus Jim & I have some different approaches to how we play our Tyranids.) But Jim definitely should know how nasty Prescience + Overwatch can be; he beat me over the head with it just a couple weeks ago.
I couldn't make it there in time to screen out his paladins. Because Blackmoor went first, by the time it got to my T2, he's already able to move about 12", or 2 turns of movement. I just couldn't get there in time, at least not with the way I deployed my gargoyles, which was behind the tervigons. And the reason why they were behind the tervigons was because I wanted to put my tervigons as far forwards as possible so that its spawned gants may perhaps have been able to reach the Relic first.
Besides, screening wouldn't work in this case as his paladins could choose to assault my screening unit (thus gaining extra movement as well) and then consolidate on top of the Relic to pick it up on their next turn. Also, my closest tervigon ran out of gants on T1 after producing only 4 gants. There was no way for me to create multiple screening units as the unit of 4 gants wouldn't screen anything....it would have just given his strikers and perhaps dread an easy First Blood target.
Statistically, Prescience + Overwatch shouldn't have done as much damage as it did to my T8 flyrant:
20 psycannon shots x [((1/6 + (5/6 x 1/6)) x 1/6) + ((1/6 + (5/6 x 1/6)) x 1/6 x 1/3)] = 1.36W
On average, it would have done only 1W to my T8 flyrant.
MSU is not viable any longer for many many reasons. 6th edition is very much so unforgiving.
It sure is. It may no longer be the top-dog competitive build, but MSU still is a very strong build even in 6th.
What it hurts most is my Crowe-Purifiers, an army that relies on both shooting and assault. But for a pure-shooty MSU army, they are still tough to fight against.
Jy2 that would be again an army that would be eaten alive by Necrons, they just love all that low armour and they can easely dance around the pallystar, i do see however do it well against a lot of other things, however i think palladins need to be scoring.
Never said it would be perfect. Whether Draigowing with strikers or Draigowing with MSU, the fact that you are using a deathstar unit that takes up about 40% of the army means that it can always be exploited by certain armies. Any deathstar army is inherently unbalanced. It is the type of army that would either win big against most armies but will also potentially lose big when it goes up against its hard-counter. That's just something you have to deal with when playing a deathstar army.
However, don't under-estimate the resiliency of MSU. MSU is still alive and very strong, especially when anchored with a strong ground presence. Moreover, there are ways to make MSU even more resilient. The simplest is to include the ADL into the list. That makes your army twice as resilient as normal (though I would recommend an investment in dozer blades if you go this route).
sudojoe wrote: Draigo tanking for a squad of purifiers (who's other half are also scoring and can end up sitting inside a chimera box of doom with 4 psycannons in a combat squad) + coteaz henchmen tanks + a few solo scoring pallies to hold objectives from even stuff like necron fliers as they are really easy to hide actually and usually can survive the one or two things that can see them may be very fun. with DK and psyfle dreads. probably not enough points for a storm raven however but may see if true after I build it.
I shall try this later. Sounds though like JY2 may use the pally bomb + just tanks though.
Yeah, I doubt I can fit a raven into my list. At 2K, I'd probably add a GKGM to make the paladins and dreadknights scoring.
I would love to save 220 to 275 points by not taking a grandmaster/Draigo and spend it on another strike squad but I can't.
The reason why is that I have been tabled many times except for my paladins. The last time was against flying necrons who flew around and shot everything but the paladins. Just look at this game, you could have ignored my paladins and just kill everything else and you would have won if they were not troops.
Yea I have to agree, paladins who are not troops are very easy to ignore by a lot of lists.
While having paladins scoring is definitely useful, especially in a mission such as the Relic, to me it isn't really mandatory. It really boils down to how you design your lists. The trick is not to overload your paladins to make them into a super unit. You need to invest the majority of your points into the so-called "support" units.
Then there are the 2 different builds - either a troop-centric build in which the troops are the majority of the army and its offense as well or the opposite, in which troops are quite minimal (but still resilient) and offense comes from the rest of the army. An example of a troop-centric build is your Draigowing army in which almost every unit is scoring or can be made scoring. Another example would be my striker-spam GK list in which the majority of my army and its offense is vested into my strike squads and their S5-stormbolters and psycannons.
Then the opposite - which I shall call the balanced hammer build - is to use minimal (but resilient) troops and invest the majority of the army into the Elites/FA/Heavy Supports for offense. 2 such examples are my wraithwing necrons, where I only use 4x5 warriors and mainly wraiths and tesla-destructors for offense. The warriors are resilient because they are transported in flyers, but the majority of the offense comes from the non-troop selections. Then there is my double-trouble Chaos list, where I use cheap but quite resilient troops in zombies and focus the majority of my offense on the 2 HQ's, the heldrakes/chaos spawns and obliterators - the non-troop units.
Both are a viable build. Where non-scoring paladins may be an issue in 1 or 2 scenarios, you do have the advantage of being able to play more aggressively with them. Who cares if they live or die, but if your opponent ignores them, then they can do a lot of damage. In any case, that is what I am going to try out when I go back to my Grey Knights after the BAO.
Of course at higher points games - maybe around 2K - then I can add in a GKGM to make them scoring.
The major difference here though is that wraiths are faster, and those necron units are in fliers so are pretty much safe currently from any threats while being able to deploy in one turn. Paladins are slow, and so are henchmen units. Psybacks are easily taken out now. I just personally don't see the point in investing 700+ points on a unit that can be ignored. Don't forget that the new faq really hurt grey night shooting as almost all of their firepower is 24" range meaning even 4 psycanons with divination amount to gak if only 3 marines are within their kill range : / Personally I always wanted to see someone to a Corteaz Zoo keeper list with 5 man Jaekero units in chimeras 5 lascanons out the hatch? Yes please, 5 HF firing over watch from their av12? Yes please Probably the only way I will get into grey knights... Maybe convert a mighty Kong Jaekero for a DK
Automatically Appended Next Post: Corteaz
maleus Inquisitor lvl 1
10 strikes w 2 PC 5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
I meant to say mechanized MSU... Note I don't consider FlyCronz as falling under this category. I'm talking about armies with lots of razorbacks, chimeras, rhinos, etc. Sure maybe in some local meta they are top dawg but that's about it. High model count infantry heavy armies are very strong now.
The major difference here though is that wraiths are faster, and those necron units are in fliers so are pretty much safe currently from any threats while being able to deploy in one turn. Paladins are slow, and so are henchmen units. Psybacks are easily taken out now. I just personally don't see the point in investing 700+ points on a unit that can be ignored. Don't forget that the new faq really hurt grey night shooting as almost all of their firepower is 24" range meaning even 4 psycanons with divination amount to gak if only 3 marines are within their kill range : / Personally I always wanted to see someone to a Corteaz Zoo keeper list with 5 man Jaekero units in chimeras 5 lascanons out the hatch? Yes please, 5 HF firing over watch from their av12? Yes please Probably the only way I will get into grey knights... Maybe convert a mighty Kong Jaekero for a DK
Right. Min-sized troops are viable as long as they are resilient. Having them in flyers help. However, as easy as it is to kill 1 psyback, it takes considerable resources to kill 6, especially if you can give them 4+ cover from the ADL. And then you want to kill my troops? Have fun dedicating the firepower of 1 entire unit in trying to kill a 12-16pt unit. Basically, this type of build makes enemy shooting rather inefficient. Either fire at my deathstar and dreads/dreadknights which is what I want you to do or waste your firepower on my ultra-cheap troops. Also, it invalidates the double/triple-helturkey CSM builds that you are bound to go up against in tournament play. Ignoring the deathstar is definitely a viable strategy....that just means that my deathstar will probably kill at least 1 unit per turn and will advance unimpeded until they are in contesting/assault range of your units. It's not all that bad if the opponent ignores your deathstar. That is because your support units should be resilient enough to weather incoming enemy fire. At least that is theory behind my build.
Corteaz
maleus Inquisitor lvl 1
10 strikes w 2 PC 5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
5 jokaero in chimera
2 NDK
Psyfleman
1750
pretty funny I think even if not super durable
Seems like an interesting build, but I just don't like to monkey around. j.k.
It's got some firepower, that's for sure. However, it just isn't my cup of tea. The problem with this build is that it is stagnant. Move those chimeras and the monkeys will be firing in snap-shot mode only. I'm trying to move away from a pure gunline army. Mobile firepower is where it's at, even if I'm only moving 6" at a time. I can see this as a fun build but I just can't take this type of army seriously. Never had, never will. Sorry if I appear very blunt.
Dozer Blades wrote: I meant to say mechanized MSU... Note I don't consider FlyCronz as falling under this category. I'm talking about armies with lots of razorbacks, chimeras, rhinos, etc. Sure maybe in some local meta they are top dawg but that's about it. High model count infantry heavy armies are very strong now.
I agree. They (pure MSU) aren't as strong as they were back in 5th, They are still good but I don't believe they are a GT-tournament-winning build anymore. They can still, however, compete against most builds.
I think an army list I'll call hybrid MSU can be strong but not mechanized MSU with lightly armored transports (LAT)... Heldrakes eat LAT for breakfast by vector striking them then burninating whatever spills out plus they (disembarking units) are more clumped since its only 3" out of a wrecked transport. On the other hand your batreps have shown that running units such as five man Warrior squads is much more tactical than running 10 man squads. On that note I think combat squadding works a lot better in sixth edition now. So if you have someMSU it can work very well and now that Devs and Havoks are a lot cheaper it can work for them as well.
Checking in a bit late due to exams. Great report as always jy2.
I think I'm with Janthkin on having your tyrants focus more on the backfield stuff and just trying to screen the relic with gaunts/gargs/etc., but I understand why you went in (and that overwatch was WAAAY above average).
Did your biovores do much this game? I don't think you mentioned them much. Seems like they'd be pretty useful for picking out psycannons.
It doesn't seem like you ever use vector strike with your tyrants. Especially now that it ignores cover, it's average damage output is actually higher than a set of devourers against marines (2.5 vs 1.25 wounds), and it lets you split fire. Like in the case of that one Striker on T2, a VS should have easily taken him out letting you put 6 dev shots into something else. Just a thought, 2 tyrants VSing on average kills a 5 man marine unit.
Unrelated Mini-rant, feel free to ignore:
And while I realize I'm perhaps the only one with this interpretation, I still don't think Grand Strategy does anything for The Relic mission. Only scoring units can seize the relic and GS/UA doesn't make them scoring, it doesn't even make them count as scoring. With the FAQGS/UA just says:
"The nominated units can control objectives as if they were scoring units."
but everyone seems to interpret that as:
"The nominated units can do anything and everything related to mission objectives as if they were scoring units." Which is slightly different. Controlling objectives is a pretty specific action described on page 123, with very different rules to those for seizing the relic on page 131 (or line-breaker for that matter, although that really only matters for GK dreads and they seldom end up in the backfield).
@ jy2, well like I said, funny list not very competitive. I just want to see a space monkey list for some reason
I know what you mean by resiliency from MSU and don't disagree with how the list grants an edge. I simply think other armies such as necrons do it way better as they don't have a tough time with first blood, purge and the relic. Heck even in multiple objective games your going to have a tough time with henchmen IMO because they will have to leave the ADL and lets face it, if I explode your transports I shouldn't need to waste my time on your 3 man units as the explosion has a decent chance to wipe the squad with the ride. I also don't see the psybacks as much of a threat anymore, six of them only yields 18 s6 shots which is fairly weak in the current scape. Give them AC and now they are not only pricier but have gak range. I feel the GK troops slot took a hit in 6th which is why you see them allied to necrons so often. Cheap durable troops with board wide reach, seems to fill the hole nicely even if the fluff is sketchy.
Tyranids: Just as I expected. Draigowing is still a tough army for tyranids to play against, but not entirely impossible. I think that if the mission was anything other than the Relic, my bugs would actually have a very good chance against this army. However, the Relic (along with Purge the Alien) is probably their 2 strongest missions. Basically, 1 objective or less and it favors the paladins. 2+ objectives favors the bugs.
Blackmoor played a solid game. Other than the fact that he didn't really pay attention to the mission "details", he did what his army does best - to control the center and to shoot down the enemy. I felt that I played ok as well. Had the Relic not been the Primary, I would have done as some of the readers here suggested - give up the Relic and have my flyrants surgically strike at his strikers and dreads. But because the Relic was more important than Big Guns, I had to make a play for the Relic. My strategy was to tie them up and honestly, it should have worked. Then again, this game was a game of ups and downs and a few crucial rolls just didn't go my way. Que sera sera.
BTW, some of the extreme dice included:
- Paladins shot at my tervigon before I could cast my psychic powers. With Prescience and the Ignore Cover power, he only managed to put 2W on my tervigon.
- I fired my entire army into 1 5-man combat squad and couldn't kill it (1 survivor).
- His Overwatch took off 3W from a T8 flyrant (yet his normal shooting can only take off 2W from a T6 tervigon?!?).
- I wounded his warding stave 3 times with Precision Shots from my flyrant. He would then fail 2 of his 2+ saves.
- Zoanthropes could have potentially finished off the 3 paladins (all with 1W on each) but he denies both attempts to Smite him.
Overall, it was a great game against a very good opponent. I look forwards to a potential rematch at the Bay Area Open.
Dozer Blades wrote: I think an army list I'll call hybrid MSU can be strong but not mechanized MSU with lightly armored transports (LAT)... Heldrakes eat LAT for breakfast by vector striking them then burninating whatever spills out plus they (disembarking units) are more clumped since its only 3" out of a wrecked transport. On the other hand your batreps have shown that running units such as five man Warrior squads is much more tactical than running 10 man squads. On that note I think combat squadding works a lot better in sixth edition now. So if you have someMSU it can work very well and now that Devs and Havoks are a lot cheaper it can work for them as well.
I guess we have different definitions of strong. My definition of strong is an army that has a reasonable chance to beat most other builds out there. Strong isn't an army that can beat ALL builds. That army just doesn't exist in 6E. When you factor in allies, there is always a hard-counter to almost any army out there. Even some of the strongest armies - the Necron Airforce and Tzeentch Daemons - have hard-counters that can really hurt them. I agree that hybrid MSU is IMO better than pure MSU....but that doesn't mean that pure MSU is bad or not viable anymore. It is still a viable army that can compete against most other armies.
Combat-squads and 5-man MSU units are definitely good, especially now that there is only a 1 in 6 chance of getting VP missions. The only thing you have to watch out for is that they make for easy First Blood points....though it can be argued that their transports are just as easy to kill anyways.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Checking in a bit late due to exams. Great report as always jy2.
I think I'm with Janthkin on having your tyrants focus more on the backfield stuff and just trying to screen the relic with gaunts/gargs/etc., but I understand why you went in (and that overwatch was WAAAY above average).
Did your biovores do much this game? I don't think you mentioned them much. Seems like they'd be pretty useful for picking out psycannons.
It doesn't seem like you ever use vector strike with your tyrants. Especially now that it ignores cover, it's average damage output is actually higher than a set of devourers against marines (2.5 vs 1.25 wounds), and it lets you split fire. Like in the case of that one Striker on T2, a VS should have easily taken him out letting you put 6 dev shots into something else. Just a thought, 2 tyrants VSing on average kills a 5 man marine unit.
Unrelated Mini-rant, feel free to ignore:
And while I realize I'm perhaps the only one with this interpretation, I still don't think Grand Strategy does anything for The Relic mission. Only scoring units can seize the relic and GS/UA doesn't make them scoring, it doesn't even make them count as scoring. With the FAQGS/UA just says:
"The nominated units can control objectives as if they were scoring units."
but everyone seems to interpret that as:
"The nominated units can do anything and everything related to mission objectives as if they were scoring units." Which is slightly different. Controlling objectives is a pretty specific action described on page 123, with very different rules to those for seizing the relic on page 131 (or line-breaker for that matter, although that really only matters for GK dreads and they seldom end up in the backfield).
Biovores didn't do much this game. They were mainly missing or Blackmoor was making his saves. This was one of the few games where they under-performed. Then again, they are only a 180-pt investment.
I didn't use vector strikes because I didn't have the opportunity. All the vulnerable units were just too far back, with the paladins being the only ones in the front. I suppose I could have vector striked the 1 striker left and shot at the other unit of strikers, but I didn't think about it at the time. Then I tried to use my Iron Armed flyrant to lock down his paladins. Oh well, lost opportunity.
As for Grand Strategy and the Relic, I think the intent is very clear. This is one of those rare rules that people will probably play the RAI rather than the RAW. I don't mind and would let my opponent do it and if someone disagrees, he'll probably be known as a rules-lawyer and not receive a very high Sportsmanship score (if they exist). I think most TO's would allow it.
Red Corsair wrote: @ jy2, well like I said, funny list not very competitive. I just want to see a space monkey list for some reason
I know what you mean by resiliency from MSU and don't disagree with how the list grants an edge. I simply think other armies such as necrons do it way better as they don't have a tough time with first blood, purge and the relic. Heck even in multiple objective games your going to have a tough time with henchmen IMO because they will have to leave the ADL and lets face it, if I explode your transports I shouldn't need to waste my time on your 3 man units as the explosion has a decent chance to wipe the squad with the ride. I also don't see the psybacks as much of a threat anymore, six of them only yields 18 s6 shots which is fairly weak in the current scape. Give them AC and now they are not only pricier but have gak range. I feel the GK troops slot took a hit in 6th which is why you see them allied to necrons so often. Cheap durable troops with board wide reach, seems to fill the hole nicely even if the fluff is sketchy.
Yermom (Nick) ran it before. I believe you can find the batrep on his blog, but this was when the GK codex first came out.
I do understand your concern about those weak MSU troops. I also see the synergy between them and heavy hammer units such as the list I faced recently at a tournament (with MSU mech, Coteaz, Mordrak + ghost knights and 3 shunting dreadknights). There is good potential there and though it isn't perfect, I think it can compete against most armies. If necessary, I may drop 1 dreadknight and perhaps 1 troop for a GKGM + psyfleman. I will see.
Necron allies is definitely a good addition to any GK army. I have tried 1 game with the combo and have liked what I saw. In that game, my D-lord + wraiths actually out-performed my 5-man paladin unit + Draigo. Necrons address one of the greatest weaknesses of the GK's and that is their mobility (or lack of).
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tuiman wrote: Im going to a 1750 tournament next month and becasue my crons wont be ready in time, I will probably take a list similar to yours Blackmoor.
Any advise, things you would change to make it better?
And what sort or matchups would give this list a hard time?
Struggling to think of a good 1750 list at the moment so appreciate if anyone could help me out.
Also congrats on the win, was a good close game
I'm not sure if Blackmoor will answer as he doesn't frequent dakka as often anymore, but I will give you my perspective on his GK's.
His list is pretty much optimized as it is. Keeping the core of his army, I'd try to find a way to add in some grenades for his GKGM and fit in a 3-5 man henchmen unit just for objective-sitting purposes. This then gives his strikers much more flexibility (i.e. in case he wants to deepstrike them) as well as provide more scoring units. Just try to keep 1 objective near LOS-blocking terrain where they can hide.
Really shooty armies that can insta-kill paladins will give this army a tough time. Triple-vendetta IG with demolishers, 9x broadside tau or tau/ork combo lists, the necron airforce with triple-doom scythes, 9x obliterator + heldrake CSM list and similar type lists will hurt them. Also, armies that can put out lots of screening, tarpitting units such as orks, tyranids, IG blob squad and a zombie CSM list can also give them a hard time in any matchup other than the Relic.
Thanks Jy, very helpfull. How do you think it would do against wraithwing, as that's a pretty common tournie build here now. Not many play flying circus. Cheers
His list is pretty much optimized as it is. Keeping the core of his army, I'd try to find a way to add in some grenades for his GKGM and fit in a 3-5 man henchmen unit just for objective-sitting purposes. This then gives his strikers much more flexibility (i.e. in case he wants to deepstrike them) as well as provide more scoring units. Just try to keep 1 objective near LOS-blocking terrain where they can hide.
Really shooty armies that can insta-kill paladins will give this army a tough time. Triple-vendetta IG with demolishers, 9x broadside tau or tau/ork combo lists, the necron airforce with triple-doom scythes, 9x obliterator + heldrake CSM list and similar type lists will hurt them. Also, armies that can put out lots of screening, tarpitting units such as orks, tyranids, IG blob squad and a zombie CSM list can also give them a hard time in any matchup other than the Relic.
Hope that helped.
I was thinking of swapping the GM's psycannon out for Rad grenades, 3 servo-skulls and psybolt on the paladins. Figured while the BS6 Psycannon is nice it's very expensive, plus if 16 twin-linked psycannon shots don't do the job 20 are unlikely to :-P
tuiman wrote: Thanks Jy, very helpfull. How do you think it would do against wraithwing, as that's a pretty common tournie build here now. Not many play flying circus. Cheers
That's a tough call. Wraithwing, especially with a D-lord in there, has the resiliency to survive GK shooting. They do have to be careful, however, because they won't survive prolonged GK shooting. Where necrons will have the advantage is in the Mobility department. They have the mobility to dance around the paladinstar and to go after their "support" units. And that is exactly what good players will do. But overall, they will have problems against the paladins themselves (unless the necron player is bringing multiple doom scythes), so overall, I would say the necrons are a slight favorite in any mission other than Victory Points or the Relic.
I was thinking of swapping the GM's psycannon out for Rad grenades, 3 servo-skulls and psybolt on the paladins. Figured while the BS6 Psycannon is nice it's very expensive, plus if 16 twin-linked psycannon shots don't do the job 20 are unlikely to :-P
Yeah, dropping the GKGM's psycannon would be my top choice as well.
Just to throw in my two cents, as I have spent time using Pallies.
I don't think they are worthwhile without Draigo. I just don't. Though strength 8 spam is down, the ability to tank wounds on him is very important. The 3++ helps.
I'm not crazy about MSU in 6th, but I think this army would be pretty formidable:
Draigo
Coteaz
10 Paladins, 4 Psycannons, 1 Stave, Brotherhood Banner (the rest take Hammers)
5 x 3 Henchman in Psybolt Assault Cannon Razorbacks
2 x Dredknights with Heavy Incinerator
1845 (add a Henchman or something)
You can essentially have the whole thing scoring (minus two characters). You could also give re-roll 1's to wound if you don't need scoring Dredknights.
Paladins IMO were never a real competitive list despite their high tournament placements-- they were a RPS list that people didn't know what to do against yet, as with Nob Bikers in early 5th edition. Now that Ravenwing Black Knights are in the environment, I think taking Paladins-- Draigo or no Draigo-- is an even riskier move.
JGrand wrote: Just to throw in my two cents, as I have spent time using Pallies.
I don't think they are worthwhile without Draigo. I just don't. Though strength 8 spam is down, the ability to tank wounds on him is very important. The 3++ helps.
I'm not crazy about MSU in 6th, but I think this army would be pretty formidable:
Draigo
Coteaz
10 Paladins, 4 Psycannons, 1 Stave, Brotherhood Banner (the rest take Hammers)
5 x 3 Henchman in Psybolt Assault Cannon Razorbacks
2 x Dredknights with Heavy Incinerator
1845 (add a Henchman or something)
You can essentially have the whole thing scoring (minus two characters). You could also give re-roll 1's to wound if you don't need scoring Dredknights.
Personally, I like Draigo myself in an army with paladins. But when you throw in Coteaz and the paladinstar in there as well, they start to add up. Just that unit alone is about 1K! I think the key to 6E "Draigo-wing" is to make the support units more resilient, not the deathstar itself. But who knows, after some playtesting, maybe I will have to put Draigo (or at least 1 GKGM) back into my list.
Kingsley wrote: Paladins IMO were never a real competitive list despite their high tournament placements-- they were a RPS list that people didn't know what to do against yet, as with Nob Bikers in early 5th edition. Now that Ravenwing Black Knights are in the environment, I think taking Paladins-- Draigo or no Draigo-- is an even riskier move.
You would think so, but believe me, deathstar armies are here to stay. Draigowing, nob bikers and now eldar/dark eldar seer council or harlequin-stars have consistently done well on the GT level and still currently continue to do so. I myself like to run my nob bikers with the Green Tide. Blackmoor's paladins continue to do well and people like Frankie and Sean are having much success with the Deldar deathstar armies at tournaments. You can argue that we do well because we are good players, but then again, so are our opponents as we go deeper into the tournaments. Part of the reason for the successes of such armies is that they normally have more good matchups than they do bad matchups. I would say in about 10 games, they will probably match up well in 7-8 or them on average, and we all know that in competitive play, it's all about the matchups.
And BTW, I don't think the Ravenwing Black Knights are a bad matchup for the paladins. That is because paladin shooting should hurt them, even with their T5, and then warding stave and swords can absorb their attacks in assault. Once they expend their power, they can't hurt paladins anymore. Paladin hammers, on the other hand, will still hurt.
Kingsley wrote: Paladins IMO were never a real competitive list despite their high tournament placements-- they were a RPS list that people didn't know what to do against yet, as with Nob Bikers in early 5th edition. Now that Ravenwing Black Knights are in the environment, I think taking Paladins-- Draigo or no Draigo-- is an even riskier move.
You would think so, but believe me, deathstar armies are here to stay. Draigowing, nob bikers and now eldar/dark eldar seer council or harlequin-stars have consistently done well on the GT level and still currently continue to do so. I myself like to run my nob bikers with the Green Tide. Blackmoor's paladins continue to do well and people like Frankie and Sean are having much success with the Deldar deathstar armies at tournaments. You can argue that we do well because we are good players, but then again, so are our opponents as we go deeper into the tournaments. Part of the reason for the successes of such armies is that they normally have more good matchups than they do bad matchups. I would say in about 10 games, they will probably match up well in 7-8 or them on average, and we all know that in competitive play, it's all about the matchups.
And BTW, I don't think the Ravenwing Black Knights are a bad matchup for the paladins. That is because paladin shooting should hurt them, even with their T5, and then warding stave and swords can absorb their attacks in assault. Once they expend their power, they can't hurt paladins anymore. Paladin hammers, on the other hand, will still hurt.
I should be clear that I do not think that deathstar armies are inherently bad. However I think that most deathstar armies that are actually fielded are in practice not good thanks to various unbalanced choices. My experience with Paladins and Nob Bikers has been that a balanced list can easily deal with them, except perhaps in a Kill Points situation. I think such armies are only good insofar as other people take unbalanced lists that don't have answers to common threats.
You say that in competitive play, it's "all about the matchups" but in point of fact I disagree; I think matchups are only really relevant when it comes to player skill if you are using a balanced list that can truly take all comers-- in other words, I think that matchups become more and more important the less balanced your list is. A truly balanced list doesn't care about matchups. Of course, in practice a "truly balanced" list is very difficult to achieve and thus matchups will influence the game to some extent, but I really do believe that by taking an all-comers list you can greatly reduce the influence of matchups on your game.
As for Ravenwing Black Knights, it seems to me that their mobility and ability to Scout or Outflank should mean they get to dictate the terms of an engagement with Paladins, and the unit's shooting power is simply too high against a squad of Paladins for the Paladins to be viable against them, especially given that the Paladins are substantially more expensive.
tuiman wrote: Im going to a 1750 tournament next month and becasue my crons wont be ready in time, I will probably take a list similar to yours Blackmoor.
Good luck, and tell me how you did.
tuiman wrote: Any advise, things you would change to make it better?
I have been playing variations of this list for a while and all of the changes have pros and cons. You can add some henchman and a banisher for some cheap scoring units, and put them in some vehicles (either Chimeras or Razorbacks). The downside is that you are going to lose a strike squad with their shooting and warp quake to pay for them. You can take out the dreadnaughts and add dreadknights, but you will lose enhanced aegis and lose ranged anti-tank for a durable, infantry killer. You can switch out Draigo for a GK Grandmaster, and you gain his toughness and stats but you end up paying more in points and he is less customizable. You also have an option of dropping an HQ and only take Coteaz. That will save you 250-275 points, but it will mean that your paladins will not be scoring. That is a lot of points that can be spent on killy stuff, but it is a choice that you can make.
There are no real wrong answers and all of the choices are good, it is just what you want to play, and fit your playstyle (and models).
If I was going to change something it might be anti-aircraft fire, but I might have to rely on my TL dreads and Psycannons (with prescience).
And what sort or matchups would give this list a hard time?
There are 2 match-ups that give me a hard time (unlike the internet that says that there are all kinds of armies that give me trouble) those are IG with a lot of Vendettas (Demolisher cannons are not a problem because you can mitigate their damage, and they have to get within 24” where you can kill them with psycannons) but vendettas are hard as heck to hit, and can be placed where they can shoot models that you do not want to get shot, and they have a lot of TL lascannon shots.
The other is Chaos with a lot of oblits. They also have the possibility to either sit back and shoot lascannons, or if you get close, rapid fire TL plasma guns, and you do not really care for either. The other problem with them is that they have a 2+ save and 2 wounds that you can’t kill at range very easily.
Struggling to think of a good 1750 list at the moment so appreciate if anyone could help me out.
Blackmoor has lots and lots of big tournament experience with his Paladins and that is so valuable... I think switching out for Coteaz and a vanilla Grand Master is the right move for this edition. For example if Coteaz gets the Divination psychic power to cast the 4++ invulnerable save then Paladins with swords get a 3++ in close combat... That can be very strong.
I am thinking now it's better to run units I often to refer as pseudo-deathstars... They are not true deathstars such as DraigoStar or Nob bikers but they have many of the same attributes and cost considerably less points which allows you to field more units and increase your overall shooting output which is very important in sixth edition.
You say that in competitive play, it's "all about the matchups" but in point of fact I disagree; I think matchups are only really relevant when it comes to player skill if you are using a balanced list that can truly take all comers-- in other words, I think that matchups become more and more important the less balanced your list is. A truly balanced list doesn't care about matchups. Of course, in practice a "truly balanced" list is very difficult to achieve and thus matchups will influence the game to some extent, but I really do believe that by taking an all-comers list you can greatly reduce the influence of matchups on your game.
As for Ravenwing Black Knights, it seems to me that their mobility and ability to Scout or Outflank should mean they get to dictate the terms of an engagement with Paladins, and the unit's shooting power is simply too high against a squad of Paladins for the Paladins to be viable against them, especially given that the Paladins are substantially more expensive.
Actually, even truly balanced lists will have matchup problems. Such are the dynamics of 6th Ed. and its allies. I'll give you some examples. I consider my wraith flyer hybrid-necrons to be a balanced army. However, I do have matchup concerns for them. Massed 2+ armies like deathwing, psychic-heavy armies like tyranids and even deldar and infantry-heavy lists like multiple IG blob squads and the Green Tide will give my army some problems. My tyranids are really balanced IMO. However, Jaws/long fang-spam space wolves, DE venom-spam, ultra-shooty Tau and now Eldar/Dark Eldar alliances are bad matchups for them. Your Tau/space marines themselves will have problems against my wraithwing necrons. They just don't have the Volume of Attacks necessary to deal with 18 wraiths along with 2 D-lords and a bunch of flyers. Yes, balanced lists are more likely to be able to deal with the extreme lists, but even they aren't completely immune to list mismatches. Their main advantage is that in a run of several games (as in a GT environment), they can handle a wider range of army types than the unbalanced ones can.
As for the paladin-ravenwing matchup, ravenwing will have to beat them by playing laterally. Go after the rest of the army and ignore the palliestar. That is their best chance against them.
wyomingfox wrote: Nids can have a very bad matchup if they face a mechanized DE force with 3+ venoms and an allied farseer.
Yeah. That may be one of the toughest matchups for the bugs.
I would love to go up against this type of list. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a DE venomspam player in my area. Most of them appears to have migrated to a foot-based Eldar/DE build. But maybe that is a good thing....
Dozer Blades wrote: Blackmoor has lots and lots of big tournament experience with his Paladins and that is so valuable... I think switching out for Coteaz and a vanilla Grand Master is the right move for this edition. For example if Coteaz gets the Divination psychic power to cast the 4++ invulnerable save then Paladins with swords get a 3++ in close combat... That can be very strong.
I am thinking now it's better to run units I often to refer as pseudo-deathstars... They are not true deathstars such as DraigoStar or Nob bikers but they have many of the same attributes and cost considerably less points which allows you to field more units and increase your overall shooting output which is very important in sixth edition.
I think that is definitely a viable build. With my orks, I currently run primarily a green tide army with a smaller nob biker deathstar unit (though in larger games, I run a full 10-man nob biker unit). For my "Draigo-wing", I am considering dropping some paladins to fit other stuff into my list.
GodlessM had a good setup, Draigo, Coteaz, 5 paladins, 2 stormravens, 2 dreadknights, 2 10 man strike in rhinos. Had a lot of success at tournies, top 3 most times.
I am going to take Blackmoors list but add draigo, and remove a coupe of strikes from a squad to make up for it. I loose 2 bodies and a psycannon, but i feel draigo is so useful to tank the high strength shots.
tuiman wrote: GodlessM had a good setup, Draigo, Coteaz, 5 paladins, 2 stormravens, 2 dreadknights, 2 10 man strike in rhinos. Had a lot of success at tournies, top 3 most times.
I am going to take Blackmoors list but add draigo, and remove a coupe of strikes from a squad to make up for it. I loose 2 bodies and a psycannon, but i feel draigo is so useful to tank the high strength shots.
Yeah, his army is balanced and there is some synergy in it. From what I've read, I believed he dropped the 2 rhinos because they were just First Blood liabilities. While he prefers death from above (i.e. more ravens), I prefer more death from below (i.e. S5 stormbolter-spam). Not that one is better than the other, but just a difference in play-style preferences.
Good luck in your tourney and let us know how it goes!
Valek wrote: Tbh i think draigo is needed atm, there is a lot of ap2 shooting out there and he will still give any non 2+ char a run for his money.
On the other hand would you consider dropping the strike squad to 7 to fit psyammo in the Paladins?
I like Draigo as well, but I'm probably going to try a few games without him and see how it does. Who knows, I may end up bringing back the big boss.
I would consider psybolt ammo for a 10-man paladin unit, but not for a 5-man unit.
jy2 wrote: Actually, even truly balanced lists will have matchup problems. Such are the dynamics of 6th Ed. and its allies. I'll give you some examples. I consider my wraith flyer hybrid-necrons to be a balanced army. However, I do have matchup concerns for them. Massed 2+ armies like deathwing, psychic-heavy armies like tyranids and even deldar and infantry-heavy lists like multiple IG blob squads and the Green Tide will give my army some problems. My tyranids are really balanced IMO. However, Jaws/long fang-spam space wolves, DE venom-spam, ultra-shooty Tau and now Eldar/Dark Eldar alliances are bad matchups for them. Your Tau/space marines themselves will have problems against my wraithwing necrons. They just don't have the Volume of Attacks necessary to deal with 18 wraiths along with 2 D-lords and a bunch of flyers. Yes, balanced lists are more likely to be able to deal with the extreme lists, but even they aren't completely immune to list mismatches. Their main advantage is that in a run of several games (as in a GT environment), they can handle a wider range of army types than the unbalanced ones can.
Fair points. I will also add that unbalanced lists often have an advantage in Battle Points events, since they have a higher chance of massacring the opponent and getting more points, while a balanced list is not as likely to outright crush anyone, even if its win rate is higher. Thus running an unbalanced list might be a better move in a Battle Points event, though I think that balanced armies still have the advantage in win/loss events.
wyomingfox wrote: Nids can have a very bad matchup if they face a mechanized DE force with 3+ venoms and an allied farseer.
Yeah. That may be one of the toughest matchups for the bugs.
I would love to go up against this type of list. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a DE venomspam player in my area. Most of them appears to have migrated to a foot-based Eldar/DE build. But maybe that is a good thing....
I guess that I am lucky then . We have two in Milwaukee and 1 in Madison; and some how I draw them each time when I bring my nids.
Fair points. I will also add that unbalanced lists often have an advantage in Battle Points events, since they have a higher chance of massacring the opponent and getting more points, while a balanced list is not as likely to outright crush anyone, even if its win rate is higher. Thus running an unbalanced list might be a better move in a Battle Points event, though I think that balanced armies still have the advantage in win/loss events.
I agree, and that is why I am not very fond of Battle Points. I much prefer the straight W-L-D format with some type of tie breaker. Sometimes, battle points just doesn't make sense. For example, in 1 tournament, I was the only person to get 3 wins yet I came second (had 2 major victories and 1 minor). The person who came in first had 2-0-1 (2 massacres and 1 draw)! To me, it just doesn't make sense that someone can go 3-0 and still lose out to someone who went 2-0-1 especially if the tournament doesn't take into account comp or painting. But for a while, that's how most tournaments were.
Also, battle points encourage maximizing your points which then encourages trying to massacre/table your opponent. Why? You are already winning by a lot. There's no need to rub dirt in his face as well. It is sometimes this type of behaviour in games - trying to maximize your wins when you are already winning by a lot - that I feel gives the game a bad rep because it encourages WAAC playing and rules lawyering.
Anyways, sorry about the rant. Also wanted to point out that not all players are like this, even when they are dominating your army. Most players are fairly nice people in tournaments, but there are some of those who will rules lawyer to try to maximize their "wins". I feel that Battle Points tend to encourage this type of behaviour more.
wyomingfox wrote: Nids can have a very bad matchup if they face a mechanized DE force with 3+ venoms and an allied farseer.
Yeah. That may be one of the toughest matchups for the bugs.
I would love to go up against this type of list. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a DE venomspam player in my area. Most of them appears to have migrated to a foot-based Eldar/DE build. But maybe that is a good thing....
I guess that I am lucky then . We have two in Milwaukee and 1 in Madison; and some how I draw them each time when I bring my nids.
There are DE players here as well. They just usually don't frequent the gaming stores that I go to. However, I would see them sometimes at the larger tournaments (i.e. the Ard Boyz Semi-finals). I wanted to play against them so badly at the Ard Boyz, though at the time, I brought my ultra-shooty Crowe-Purifier-Psyfleman Grey Knights. Those DE wouldn't have stood a chance!
! However, Coteaz then makes me re-roll and I fail the second time around. 
Wow....Blackmoor caught a huge break here!!!
!!!
5 lascanons out the hatch? Yes please, 5 
