Codex is nearly complete, I just need some people to playtest it!
Salamander USR: The Salamander Special Rule is made up of the following special rules:
Spoiler:
Born in Fire: Surrounded by flames since birth, Salamanders are conditioned to casually ignore the searing temperatures that would otherwise severely burn or kill other Space Marines. All Salamanders gain Feel no Pain against Flamer weapons of all types.
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Stubborn --
And They Shall Know no Fear --
Combat Squads --
Acute Vision: Due to the darkness that surrounds them constantly, Salamanders, and indeed many of the people of Nocturne, have a sort of night vision. When the Night Fighting rules are in play, Salamanders see normally up 24". Between 24" and 36" enemy units have the Stealth special rule, and beyond 36" they have the Shrouded special rule. Salamanders cannot see past 48" during Night Fighting, and may shoot at enemy units up to 48" away, as opposed to the usual 36" limit imposed by Night Fighting.
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Slower than Normal: While still much faster than a normal human, Salamanders are not a quick as their Space Marine brethren. Against enemy Space Marines (including Chaos Space Marines, with the exception of Plague Marines), Salamanders count as having an Initiative of 3.
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Ancient Enemies: The Dark Eldar have long been a thorn in the Salamanders side, with their raids of Nocturne stretching back to the Great Crusade. As a consequence, the Salamanders have become rather proficient at fighting the Dark Eldar, and therefor all Salamanders gain both Preferred Enemy (Dark Eldar) and Hatred (Dark Eldar).
Masters of the Forge: Salamanders possess a higher than normal aptitude for technology, a gift that has yet to betray the chapter. Each Salamanders Character (sergeants, Independent Characters, etc), Terminator unit, and Veteran unit (both Sternguard and Vanguard) may choose one of the following for +5 points per model:
1-Twin-Linked Flamer weapons (Including Flamestorm Cannons)
2-Twin-Linked Melta weapons
3-Master-Crafted Power Weapons
4-Master-Crafted Power Armor - may re-roll a single failed armor save roll of 1 per game.
5-Master-Crafted Thunder Hammers
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Standard Equipment This list may be taken by any model in any unit for the listed cost.
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Inferno: Any flamer weapon may be upgraded to have the Torrent special rule. If it does so, it changes from Assault to Heavy (unless it is already a Heavy weapon). +10 points per flamer weapon.
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Char-flame Ammunition: Any flamer weapon upgraded with this ammunition increases its Strength by 1. +10 points per weapon.
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Hardened Armor: A heavier, but more protective variant of Power Armor halfway between standard power armor and terminator armor. Models with Hardened armor re-roll failed saves against blast or template weapons. +5 points per Power Armored model, +10 points per model with Artificer Armor. Model with Terminator Armor may not take this equipment.
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Special Issue Equipment This equipment may only be taken by Independent Characters, unless otherwise specified in the unit's entry.
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Drakescale Cloak +15 points: Crafted from the Drakes that roam Nocturne, this cloak provides an additional layer of nearly impenetrable protection, especially against fire. Drakescale Cloaks provide a 2+ invulnerable save against all flamer weapons (including Flamestorm Cannons, Baleflamers, and any other weapon that shoots fire) and a 4+ invulnerable save against all other attacks.
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Sigil of Vulkan +15 points: A relic from before the Heresy, this relic was once wielded by Vulkan himself, and because of this, he who wields it is a symbol of Vulkan's might, inspiring all who gaze upon him. All Salamanders within 8" gain the Fearless and Fleet special rules.
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Hammer of Fire: This massive Thunder Hammer is gifted to the most honorable of the Firedrakes. Once in battle, the hammer bursts into flame, becoming as hot as a melta blast. This weapon uses the following profile: R: - S: User AP:2 Type: Melee, Two-Handed, Unwieldy, Concussive, Fleshbane, Armorbane. One per army.
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Surtur's Breath +20 points: This particularly devastating weapon was once wielded by a rather vicious Salamander named Sutur. He modified his weapon to shoot a specially-developed fuel a longer distance, creating a weapon of great power in the process. This weapon uses the following profile: R: Template S:5 AP:3 Type: Heavy 1, Torrent. One per army.
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Vehicle upgrades:
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Armored Ceramite - Melta weapons do not roll an extra D6 when rolling for armor penetration vehicles with this upgrade.
Suggestions for upgrades welcome!
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Characters:
Spoiler:
Tu'Shan, Chapter Master of the Salamanders...................225 points
Cast into the fray only three years after becoming Chapter Master Tu'shan fought with honor during the Second battle for Armageddon, earning the praise of Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels. Since then, he has led with distinction and courage wholly befitting his rank and reputation. Strong, even for a Space Marine, Tu'shan wields the Hand of Vulkan with ease, and is protected by a cloak made from the scales of an ancient salamander drake.
..................WS...BS...S...T...W...I....A....Ld...Sv Tu'Shan.......6.....5....4...4....3...5...3…10…2+
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Composition: 1 (Unique)
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Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
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Wargear:
Stormbearer - This is a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer that contains a built-in twin-linked Meltagun. However, Tu'shan's strength and expertise with the weapon allow him to wield the hammer in two different ways: hard or fast.
Hard: R:- S:9 AP:2 Type: Melee, Concussive, Unweildy
Fast: R:- S:+2 AP3 Type: Melee, Strikedown
Artificer Armor
Mantle of the Ancients - This cloak is completely fireproof. Beyond that, however, it is as tough as the hull of a Land Raider. This mantle grants Tu'shan a 3+ Invulnerable save. Failed saves taken against Flamer, or Melta weapons may be re-rolled.
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Special Rules:
Independent Character, Salamander (Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer), Orbital Bombardment
As Chapter Master, Tu'Shan may take an Honor Guard squad, as detailed in Codex: Space Marines, with the additional option of replacing their Boltgun with a Combat Shield for free or Storm Shield for +10 points per model. If he is equipped with Terminator Armor, he also has the option of taking a Firedrake Terminator Squad as a Firedrake Command Squad instead. Honor Guard and Firedrake Command Squads do not use up a HQ slot on the Force Organization Chart.
Tu'Shan may replace his artificer armour with Terminator armour for 25pts. If Tu'shan is so equipped, both Assault and Tactical Terminator squads become troop choices, and may select a Land Raider of any variant as a dedicated transport. Land Raiders purchased in this manner must be equipped with the Armoured Ceramite upgrade (to represent them being relics of the chapter).
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Vulkan He'Stan: See Codex: Space Marines. Vulkan He'Stan replaces his Chapter Tactics with the following (also maintaining his current cost of 190 points):
-Search for the Nine: Vulkan He'Stan is tasked with recovering the nine ancient artefacts Vulkan left behind. During his search, any and all squads assisting him are constantly on the lookout for any trace of their Chapter's holy relics. Vulkan He'stan counts as a scoring unit. In addition, he may choose an additional D3 Infantry units to also become scoring units.
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Bray'Arth Ashmantle........ See Imperial Armor Volume 10: Badab War part 2
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Captain Pellas Mir'san....See Imperial Armor Volume 10: Badab War part 2
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Army Adjustments (In progress):
Spoiler:
All models, except vehicles, increase their point cost by 2 points.
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Due to the nature of their homeworld and training, Salamanders are limited in their rapid-response capabilities. Therefore, each Fast Attack option can only be taken once per Primary Detachment, and Land Speeders may only be taken a single vehicles, not squadrons.
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++++++++++++++++++++ Psychic Powers +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ See Codex: Space Marines and the Space Marines FAQ for psychic powers. In addition, Salamander Librarians may re-roll results on the Pyromancy table.
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++++++++++++++++++++++++ HQ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -
All Salamanders Captains, Librarians, and Chaplains may replace their bolt pistol and/or chainsword/Crozius (or Storm Bolter and/or Power Sword, if in Terminator Armor) with the following, in addition to the options listed in Codex: Space Marines:
+ Hand Flamer --- +10 points
+ Inferno Pistol --- +15 points
+ Meltagun -------- +15 points
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A Master of the Forge may, in addition to the options listed in Codex: Space Marines:
+ Replace servo-harness and Boltgun with Multi-Melta --- +25 points
+ Replace Boltgun with Meltagun -------------------------------- +10 points
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Troops +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -
Tactical Marines:
Add the following to the list of heavy weapons a squad may take:
+ Heavy Flamer ---- +10 points
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Scouts
One scout may replace his Boltgun with a Heavy Flamer for +10 points. If a Scout does this, they may not take a Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher.
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Both Tactical squad and Scout squad sergeants may replace their Boltguns with one of the following, in addition to their respective options listed in Codex: Space Marines:
+ Flamer ------------- +5 points
+ Hand Flamer ---- +10 points
+ Inferno Pistol ---- +15 points
+ Meltagun --------- +15 points
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dedicated Transports ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -
Rhinos may take:
+ Pintle-mounted Flamer ------ +5 points
+ Armored Ceramite ------------ +10 points
+ Pintle-mounted Meltagun --- +15 points
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Razorbacks may take one of the following:
+ Multi-melta turret --- +10 points
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Drop Pods may replace their Storm Bolter with:
+ Twin- linked Flamer --- +10 points
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Elites ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -
Firedrake Command Squad.........................225 points
.........................................WS...BS..S...T...W...I....A....Ld...Sv Firedrake Terminator......4.....4....4...4....1...4...2......9....2+
Firedrake Sergeant.........4.....4....4...4....1...4...2......9....2+
Firedrake Champion......5.....4....4...4....1...4...3......9....2+
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Unit Type: Infantry, Firedrake Sergeant and Champion are Infantry (Character)
Composition: 4 Firedrake Terminators, 1 Firedrake sergeant
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++One Terminator per army may be upgraded to a Firedrake Champion for +20 points
Wargear Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter, Power Fist (Firedrake Terminator only). Power Sword (Firedrake sergeant only), Relic Blade and Storm Shield (Firedrake Champion only)
Options: Any Firedrake Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter and/or Power Fist with:
+ Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield ---- free
+ Pair of Lightning Claws --------------------- +5 points
+ Relic Blade and Storm Shield ------------ +5 points
++ 1 Firedrake Terminator may replace their Storm Bolter with a Multi-Melta --------------------- +15 points
++ 1 Firedrake Terminator may take the Sigil of Vulkan ------------------------------------------------- +15 points
++ The Firedrake Champion may replace his Relic Blade with a Hammer of Fire -------------- +15 points
++ 1 Firedrake Terminator may replace both of his weapons with a Flamestorm Cannon and gains the Very Bulky rule --- +20 points
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Special Rules Salamander, Split Fire, Promethean Cult, Anvil of War
Firedrake Terminators may select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport. This vehicle must be given the Armoured Ceramite upgrade. A single unit of Firedrakes may take the Hammer of Vulkan for 120 points.
Hammer of Vulkan: A specially designed Drop Pod specifically made for the first company. The impact of it slamming into the ground creates a massive shockwave, shattering the ground and throwing all nearby into disarray, leaving them wide-open to attack. The Hammer of Vulkan is a Drop Pod as listed in Codex: Space Marines with the Assault Vehicle special rule. When the Drop Pod lands, all models within 6" are affected by the Strikedown special rule.
Anvil of War: Firedrakes are sent on the most difficult and testing of missions. They meet their enemy head on with unflinching resolve and break them on them on the anvil of war. On the first round of assault during the game, all Firedrakes may re-roll any failed hits with Thunder Hammers during the first round of assault only.
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Sternguard veteran squad sergeants may replace their Boltguns and/or Bolt Pistol with one of the following, in addition to their respective options listed in Codex: Space Marines:
+ Flamer ------------ +5 points
+ Hand Flamer ---- +10 points
+ Inferno Pistol ---- +15 points
+ Meltagun --------- +15 points
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A Dreadnought or Venerable Dreadnought may (in addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines):
+ replace its Multi-Melta with a Flamestorm Cannon --- +15 points
+ replace its Multi-Melta with an Inferno Cannon -------- +20 points.
+ replace its Multi-Melta with a Magna-Melta -------------- +30 points.
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Ironclad Dreadnoughts may also be taken as both Elites and Heavy Support choices.
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts may replace their Storm Bolter with a Meltagun for +5 points
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Salamanders may take Contemptor Dreadnoughts as listed in Imperial Armor: Apocalypse Second Edition
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A Techmarine may, in addition to the options listed in Codex: Space Marines:
+ Replace servo-arm and Boltgun with Multi-Melta --- +25 points
+ Replace Boltgun with Meltagun -------------------------- +10 points
+ May take a Relic Blade ------------------------------------- +15 points
++++One Servitor (in addition to the two that can already replace their weapons) may replace its Servo-arm with a Flamestorm Cannon for +30 points
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Fast Attack +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -
Assault Squad:
1 in 5 Assault Marines, and the sergeant, may replace their Bolt Pistol with one of the following (in addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines):
+ Hand Flamer ---- +5 points
+ Inferno Pistol --- +10 points
+ Meltagun -------- +15 points
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Vanguard Veteran Squad:
Any model, including the sergeant, may replace their Bolt Pistol and/or Chainsword with one of the following (in addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines):
+ Hand Flamer --- +10 points
+ Inferno Pistol --- +15 points
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Land Speeder Squadron: See Codex: Space Marines
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Bike Squad: In addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines, the sergeant may replace their Bolt Pistol and/or Chainsword with one of the following:
+ Hand Flamer --- +10 points
+ Inferno Pistol --- +15 points
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Attack Bike Squadron: In addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines, any Attack Bike may upgrade it's Heavy Bolter to:
+ Flamestorm Cannon --- +20 points
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Land Speeder Storm: See Codex: Space Marines
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Scout Bike Squad: See Codex: Space Marines
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Stormraven Gunship: See Codex: Blood Angels
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Stormtalon Gunship: See June 2012 White Dwarf
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Heavy Support +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= -
Devastators: see Codex: Space Marines
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Thunderfire Cannon: see Codex: Space Marines
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Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader: See Codex: Space Marines
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Land Raider Redeemer: In addition to the options found in Codex: Space Marines, the Land Raider Redeemer may
+ replace the twin-linked Assault Cannon with an Inferno Cannon --------- +20 points
+ replace the twin-linked Assault Cannon with a Magna-Melta -------------- +25 points
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Salamanders may take Land Raider Achilles as listed in Imperial Armor: Apocalypse Second Edition. It may
+ replace the Thunderfire Cannon with a Magna-Melta -------------- +25 points
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Whirlwind: See Codex: Space Marines
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Vindicator: See Codex Space marines
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Salamanders may take the Predator Infernus variant as listed here.
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Predators may swap their Autocannon turret for
+ Twin-linked Multi-Melta --- +25 points
+ Inferno Cannon ------------- +35 points
+++ Predators may take two Multi-Melta Sponsons for +35 points
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Special Thanks This fan-dex was made possible by Blacksails, LlamaAgility, Wargey, Formosa, Washout77, Backspacehacker, and quite a few more. Thanks everyone for helping out!
Tossing it out there, i know the whole fire resist thing is a big deal but how about this:
Born in Fire: All models hit by a flamer or torrent template are hit on a 2+: still allows for a chance to use the whole "we are immune to fire thing, but still have a chance to be killed by it.
I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OPIMO
undead flesh addict wrote: I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OPIMO
Oh trust me it's better than that other thread
And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game
Backspacehacker wrote:Tossing it out there, i know the whole fire resist thing is a big deal but how about this:
Born in Fire: All models hit by a flamer or torrent template are hit on a 2+: still allows for a chance to use the whole "we are immune to fire thing, but still have a chance to be killed by it.
I'm not sure about that. Flamers would become S3, H. Flamers S4, and flamestorms S5. Against a T4 marine, it simply becomes a slightly less effective weapon, which is what I'm going for with this rule. They can certainly be killed by it, but I don't know about having certain models simply not being hit by the weapon.
undead flesh addict wrote:I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OPIMO
I don't think the 1 re-roll of a failed armor save roll of 1 per game is OP, but I see what you mean with the overloading of the rules. I do have a tendency to do that. Oh, and sorry, I updated the OP to reflect what's actually up with the MCPA rule
washout77 wrote:
undead flesh addict wrote: I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OPIMO
Oh trust me it's better than that other thread
And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game
Thank you Although the funny thing is, the dude in the other thread probably knows a whole lot more about Salamanders than I do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will also be updating the OP as I go, so be sure to check it every now and again, assuming this thread gets off of the ground.
Valkun he'stan will have to be nerfed as you are going to have 2link master crafted flamers.
I think due to the fluf Tu'shan should have a rule like baliels one that makes termis troops
Well, from the very little I actually read on Tu'shan, I was unable to find out exactly what his weaponry, equipment, or fighting style was. I didn't see anything about him wearing terminator armor, though.
Tu'shan should not be S5. He's strong, sure, but still a S4 marine, like nearly every other chapter master described as being particularly strong.
As for his hammer, the two styles are fine, and have worked well for other characters in different codices. However, striking at I with a Sx2 weapon is very strong with 3 attacks, so I'd probably opt to make it so that he may only make 1 attack in his hard mode. To compensate for his S4, make his fast mode S +2, effectively making it a cross between a relic blade and a thunderhammer.
The twin linked melta gun is a neat idea on the hammer, but I'd personally just give him either a slightly better hand flamer, or an infernus pistol (S8 AP1, R6", Melta), obviously master-crafted.
The ability to swap bolters for flamers or melta guns for his command squad is unnecessary. Remember, they are space marines who follow the codex almost entirely with the exception of their chapter organization, which still mostly follows the codex. They are still marines who believe the bolter is a holy weapon, and particularly effective holy weapon at that. You also don't want to overdo the flamer/melta thing. There are certainly some units that could use a flamer/melta option (tac squads taking a heavy flamer instead of heavy bolter, for example), but not everything needs to be all flame/melta all the time.
Besides, a command squad is the shooty option, the honour guard should be decked out in thunderhammers, stormshield, and relic blades.
Your focus should be on simplicity, and on using as many existing units in C:SM (with a few units form other books or FW) while tweaking a single option or two as needed. No need to reinvent the wheel.
So far so good though. I'm still on the fence with the Masters of the Forge USR, as it essentially a free boost to everything with no cost.
I'll try and think of a different USR for them and come back here.
Blacksails wrote: Tu'shan should not be S5. He's strong, sure, but still a S4 marine, like nearly every other chapter master described as being particularly strong.
As for his hammer, the two styles are fine, and have worked well for other characters in different codices. However, striking at I with a Sx2 weapon is very strong with 3 attacks, so I'd probably opt to make it so that he may only make 1 attack in his hard mode. To compensate for his S4, make his fast mode S +2, effectively making it a cross between a relic blade and a thunderhammer.
The twin linked melta gun is a neat idea on the hammer, but I'd personally just give him either a slightly better hand flamer, or an infernus pistol (S8 AP1, R6", Melta), obviously master-crafted.
The ability to swap bolters for flamers or melta guns for his command squad is unnecessary. Remember, they are space marines who follow the codex almost entirely with the exception of their chapter organization, which still mostly follows the codex. They are still marines who believe the bolter is a holy weapon, and particularly effective holy weapon at that. You also don't want to overdo the flamer/melta thing. There are certainly some units that could use a flamer/melta option (tac squads taking a heavy flamer instead of heavy bolter, for example), but not everything needs to be all flame/melta all the time.
Besides, a command squad is the shooty option, the honour guard should be decked out in thunderhammers, stormshield, and relic blades.
Your focus should be on simplicity, and on using as many existing units in C:SM (with a few units form other books or FW) while tweaking a single option or two as needed. No need to reinvent the wheel.
So far so good though. I'm still on the fence with the Masters of the Forge USR, as it essentially a free boost to everything with no cost.
I'll try and think of a different USR for them and come back here.
I'm not sure about Tu'shan's S4. He has the least devoted to him on Lexicanum, but his entry is the only one out of the other Chapter Masters that mentions phsyical strength. And his weapon is Unwieldy, so he does strike at I1 if he goes Hard. I'm thinking I could add a cost into Masters of the Forge, perhaps +5 points if they choose to TL or MC something?
My idea with MotF was to take Vulkan He'Stan's Chapter Tactics and make it bigger, but not OP.
I think he meant give him a S5, hes just saying most marines are S4 and chapter masters are only slightly stronger then marines. Chapter masters are just more skilled then them, So giving him a S5 would be a bit better.
What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.
Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.
Blacksails wrote: What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.
Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.
Blacksails makes an interesting point here. His mastery of the weapon he wields, in addition to his strength would give him a power sword with +2 Strength. It shows that he isn't off the charts stronger than other marines, but that the extra bit of strength and his fighting abilities allow him to hit harder. If this is the case, then maybe you could make hard mode s10 as it is written now, but I am not so sure about that.
There's nothing wrong with giving him a S10 hammer; Lysander has one and he's not broken. I suggest that he be S4, with a S10 hammer in hard mode, and S: User+2, AP3 in fast mode (essentially a relic blade). Its powerful, certainly, easily a 40-50pt weapon assuming a thunderhammer's base cost is 30pt. You just have to reflect that in his points cost. He doesn't, however, buff the army, so he's not broken or overpowered, he's just strong in combat, but limited by his 3 attacks and ability to be ID'd by S8 or above, which is fine and balanced. If you really wanted, you could give him a small sort of rites of battle boost for units within 6"-12", though it would bump his cost up.
Blacksails wrote:There's nothing wrong with giving him a S10 hammer; Lysander has one and he's not broken. I suggest that he be S4, with a S10 hammer in hard mode, and S: User+2, AP3 in fast mode (essentially a relic blade). Its powerful, certainly, easily a 40-50pt weapon assuming a thunderhammer's base cost is 30pt. You just have to reflect that in his points cost. He doesn't, however, buff the army, so he's not broken or overpowered, he's just strong in combat, but limited by his 3 attacks and ability to be ID'd by S8 or above, which is fine and balanced. If you really wanted, you could give him a small sort of rites of battle boost for units within 6"-12", though it would bump his cost up.
I'm not sure exactly what sort of Rites I could do, though. The salamander USR covers pretty much everything, but I'm open to suggestions. Is there some fluff that we can extrapolate into a special rule, like giving all units within 12" fearless or something?
Lord Magnus wrote:
Blacksails wrote: What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.
Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.
Blacksails makes an interesting point here. His mastery of the weapon he wields, in addition to his strength would give him a power sword with +2 Strength. It shows that he isn't off the charts stronger than other marines, but that the extra bit of strength and his fighting abilities allow him to hit harder. If this is the case, then maybe you could make hard mode s10 as it is written now, but I am not so sure about that.
Actually, I could make the Fast +2 S and the Hammer S9. He's not super strong, but strong enough to make the Thunder hammer hurt a bit more. Does that make sense, or should I just go with S10?
Honestly, he's fine with a S8, 9, or 10 hammer, just reflect it in the cost. Depends on whether you want him to be a cc beatstick, or a balance of close combat prowess and army buffs. When figuring his base cost, use the base chapter master and add his wargear (master crafting is 5pts), then just be reasonable if you give him any other special rules.
210 is awfully close to what I'd agree with as well, but for kicks, here's my math on his pointage.
Chapter Master base...125pts
+Thunderhammer and Stormshield (to represent the 3++) is another 45pts
+Artificer armour is another 15pts
+twin-linked melta gun (I'll go with the base cost +5pts for 'master-crafting' it) is another 15pts
+master crafting the hammer and another point of strength, and the second combat mode, we'll call that a 20pts upgrade (5 for master craft, 5 for the point of strength, 10 for the extra mode [though I can see maybe only 5 for the second mode])
+plus his fire resistant re-roll ability should be a 5pts upgrade.
=225pts
Which to me seems pretty reasonable for a strong marine close combat character sporting a TL-melta gun as well.
How would you work Vulkan into this? I mean you really can't leave the poor guy out. Would he need to have a different rule set since his twin link/ master craft buff would be kind of redundant?
Blacksails wrote:210 is awfully close to what I'd agree with as well, but for kicks, here's my math on his pointage.
Chapter Master base...125pts
+Thunderhammer and Stormshield (to represent the 3++) is another 45pts
+Artificer armour is another 15pts
+twin-linked melta gun (I'll go with the base cost +5pts for 'master-crafting' it) is another 15pts
+master crafting the hammer and another point of strength, and the second combat mode, we'll call that a 20pts upgrade (5 for master craft, 5 for the point of strength, 10 for the extra mode [though I can see maybe only 5 for the second mode])
+plus his fire resistant re-roll ability should be a 5pts upgrade.
=225pts
Which to me seems pretty reasonable for a strong marine close combat character sporting a TL-melta gun as well.
I like it. My math was shoddy at best I don't think I accounted for all of the twin-linking/Master-Crafting.
Nevie wrote:How would you work Vulkan into this? I mean you really can't leave the poor guy out. Would he need to have a different rule set since his twin link/ master craft buff would be kind of redundant?
It would be rather redundant. I think the best thing would be to simply remove his Chapter Tactics and power his point cost by a good 20 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok dudes, anyone have any ideas for vehicles? I know Vulkan lists worked well with Drop Pods, or should we leave everything as is?
There's not much that needs to be done for vehicles. Include the Predator Infernus as a heavy support choice (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Predator_infernus.pdf), and add armoured ceramite hulls for Land Raiders and Preds, and include a multi-melta turret option for razorbacks at +25pts I figure. Include Brayarth Ashmantle for an HQ choice (one of the Badab War books) and add the option for a flamestorm cannon on dreads for +10pts replacing the multi-melta.
Erm, yeah. Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
McNinja wrote: Yeah, there's not much to do for the vehicles. After all of that, there really isn't much more to do to make the Salamanders more unique.
Pretty much. There's a siege dreadnought variant FW put out which could be interesting, but the Ironclad is good enough. JustDave's SM codex included the option to have a venerable Ironclad which was neat.
If you want to follow tradition with most Sallie's fandexes, an imposition of 0-1 for all fast attack choices is fairly standard. If you really want, you could further restrict that by also making landspeeders unavailable in squadrons, but I find the the 0-1 for FA choices to be limiting enough for fluff reasons.
I'm still not sold on the Masters of the Forge USR, as it steps on Vulkan's ability and feels on the overpowered side for a fan dex. Then again, I also believe an army should have 0-2 special rules that are universal (besides marines, who will have 3 standard, plus whatever their codex specialty is), so between Born in Fire, Stubborn, and Acute Vision, I don't think they really need a whole lot.
Maybe you could make a variation of Masters of the Forge where any sergeant may master-craft any of his weapons for 5pts per weapon, or have access to some kind of special armoury of unique weapons (drakescale cloaks, sigil of Vulkan, so on). While every Salamander is technically a better armourer than most marines from other chapters, their personal skill will not really show through in the limited stats we have to fudge with without seeming overpowered or mary sue-esque. However, sergeants are far more skilled in every aspect of the Promethean Cult, and would stand to reason their weapons would be great enough to warrant some sort of boost in game (master-crafting works well for this). Obviously, this would apply to Captains and other HQs as well, but I feel like sergeants (and by extension, veterans) could benefit from this without being game breaking, as it would still cost 5pts per weapon.
Well, that, and it would fit the whole cinematic nonsense 6th is pushing on us by modelling our sergeants in fancy armour with fancy weapons taking on some chaos champion with his shiny hammer. Or something.
Just spitballin, let me know what you think about that idea.
Warp Angels wrote: Tu'Shan should also make Terminators Troops (Assault+Tacticle).
Agreed on the adding of the FW stuff aswell...
Salamanders could also have PE (DE) as they constantly raid nocturne ? or Hatred (DE) might be more fitting ?
These are both good points.
If I were to run Sallies using already existing codices, I'd run DA with Belial and all termies to represent the Firedrakes. But since we're discussing a fan dex, I'd make the following option.
Tu'Shan may replace his artificer armour with Terminator armour for 25pts.
If Tu'shan is so equipped, Terminator squads become troop choices, and may select a Land Raider of any variant as a dedicated transport. Land Raiders purchased in this manner must be equipped with the armoured ceramite upgrade (to represent them being relics of the chapter).
Boom.
And a big yes to the PEDE. They do in fact despise DE particularly, as they have raided Nocturne since before Vulkan. Also factor in the Battle of Commoragh, where a significant portion of the chapter invaded Commoragh to rescue their strike vessel, and you get a chapter with a particular loathing of DE. Fluffy and fun.
I'd also include Bray'arth Ashmantle as an HQ. He costs more than a Land Raider, but is AV13 front, venerable, no one can roll more than 1 dice against him for penetration (a la old monolith) and comes with two DCCW with two heavy flamers that may also be fired as a single TL-melta gun. Hilariously awesome, and the model is to die for *drool*.
Oh, forgot to mention, that anyone locked in combat with him takes a S5, AP4 hit, because, you know, flames and stuff.
And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game
Ah, I thought it was any failed armour save. My bad
I think, though, the salamander special rule should cost some points, as the benefits outway the drawbacks. Maybe an increase of 1-2 points per model would be warranted.
Also, ceramite plating should be 20 points at least on land raiders (Seriously, has anyone here even contemplated just how nasty a land raider spartan is with ceramite and flare shield? If I do a heresy era army, I am getting myself one of those)
I think, though, the salamander special rule should cost some points, as the benefits outway the drawbacks. Maybe an increase of 1-2 points per model would be warranted.
Also, ceramite plating should be 20 points at least on land raiders (Seriously, has anyone here even contemplated just how nasty a land raider spartan is with ceramite and flare shield? If I do a heresy era army, I am getting myself one of those)
anyway, good luck
I proposed a variation to the Masters of the Forge USR which would likely satisfy your complaint.
Also, I just looked it up, and it appears as though armoured ceramite is a 20pts upgrade for Land Raiders. Good call.
And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game
Ah, I thought it was any failed armour save. My bad
I think, though, the salamander special rule should cost some points, as the benefits outway the drawbacks. Maybe an increase of 1-2 points per model would be warranted.
Also, ceramite plating should be 20 points at least on land raiders (Seriously, has anyone here even contemplated just how nasty a land raider spartan is with ceramite and flare shield? If I do a heresy era army, I am getting myself one of those)
anyway, good luck
Done! Looking at the Salamander USR, I think I'll throw the price increase in the Army Adjustments section.
McNinja wrote: Once I get the IA book he's in, I'll throw him in there. Also, Blacksails, I used your Tu'Shan Terminator bit, if that's ok with you.
I also switched the Masters of the Forge from a USR to party of the armory.
Just saw the changes. Looks good.
Don't forget to make Tu'Shan 225pts base, 250pts with the terminator upgrade. He'd be 60pts more than Belial, but comes with a twin linked melta gun (15pts), a better, MC'd hammer (~15pts), resistant to fire (5pts) and orbital bombardment puts him on par with Belial for unlocking termie troops, so it stands to be fairly balanced.
I'd make the ceramite armour upgrade 5pts more expensive for all the vehicles (20 for Raider, 15 for preds, 10 for rhinos) as it makes it more of a choice and less of a no-brainer small point upgrade.
Oops I knew I was forgetting something! Done. Only 8 points for Rhinos because at S8, you already glance on a 3 and pen on a 4 (against AV11), so there's already a rather high chance to at least wound the vehicle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Updated the armory, added Bray'Arth Ashmantle and Pellas Mir'san (not in their entirety), and changed Tu'Shan's weapon to Stormbearer (not that it makes a huge difference).
cormadepanda wrote: Should Make dreadnoughts be able to take a strength 6 ap 3 flamer as a main weapon, with flame storm. And perhaps some sort of hammer option.
Hmm... not sure about the Hammer option for regular dreads (Ironclads have that one covered), but I'm completely down with the Flamestorm Cannon. Also, totally forgot to add the Predator Infernus. It is added now.
Dante dont got ew, neither does azrael or Pedro... Sure there are
Others, but anyway to the op, love it, I dont play salamanders but I would gladly let my mate use these rules.
Something I would like to add.
1/2
Fury of the salamander
Psychic powers
Type: beam
Range: 3d6 Str7
Ap: 4
Special rules: any unit hit by fury of the salamander must take a I test or be effected by the blind rule, this has no effect on vehicles with an I value
3/4
Might of the drake
Type: buff.. Forget the name.
Range: 12"
Special rule: the units attacks blaze with psychic power, the unit
Gains the poison 4+ special rule on its shooting OR close combat attacks, choose when casting the power.
5/6
Vulkans vengeance
Type: focussed witchfire
Range: 18"
Str4
Ap3
Special rules: if the model survives it must immediately take a t test, if failed it immediately take another wound with no armour save allowed, this does not generate further tests if failed.
These powers replace the codex space marines powers
Salamanders may roll on the biomancy, telepathy, pyromancy, telekinesis or salamander tables.
Exalted this thread, this is a perfect example of a Sallie codex done right. As a matter of fact, this is an example of ANY fandex done right. Everything is nice and balanced, while I don't play Marines (my meta is so full of them that I just couldn't bring myself to do Marines. I went Guard ) I would gladly let my friend use this
EDIT: With the sudden amount of fandexes recently, has any of the Mod staff considered making a few stickies (in this section) that link to really well done codices so that we can direct new writers to good examples of homebrew work?
Well i was thinking the hammer option for all dreads, because salies like their hammers. Perhaps have a new kinda power fist, like Salamander Jaw of Wrath - it is a dreadnought close combat weapon with a integrated heavy flamer and a additional melta or heavy flamer hooked to the under side of the fist. I think the point cost could be something around the 10-25pts department +pts for the extra gun upgrade, storm bolter would be the basic/free upgrade with the arm.
I mean like you have dreadnought:
May replace DCCW with
Jaw of Wrath - not sure on pricing, but it includes a Heavy flamer.
If Jaw of Wrath is present: Can replace underslung storm bolter with: Heavy flamer - 10pts Melta gun- 10pts
Oh i know also think of being able to add scales! and this confers a 6+ invlun or something. Something to mitigate damage, but not over powered invincible rhinos.
Should dreadnoughts be able to get shields? maybe i am just going nuts here, i like sallies because they are green.
Worked for a while on this
Prye gaurd 175
Same stats as honour gaurd
Same rules
And
Fearless
Wargear
Inferno pistols
Atificer Amour
Thunder Hammers
Promethean brandings
Options
Can have TDA. +20ppm
Can have Storm shield. +10ppm
Can have a chapter baner +30pts
What do you think.
wargey wrote: Worked for a while on this
Prye gaurd 175
Same stats as honour gaurd
Same rules
And
Fearless
Wargear
Inferno pistols
Atificer Amour
Thunder Hammers
Promethean brandings
Options
Can have TDA. +20ppm
Can have Storm shield. +10ppm
Can have a chapter baner +30pts
What do you think.[/quote
You know what wargey, thats not too bad, I would make termy armour 10 pts though, as they already have a 2+, so they are just paying for the invun
wargey wrote: Worked for a while on this
Prye gaurd 175
Same stats as honour gaurd
Same rules
And
Fearless
Wargear
Inferno pistols
Atificer Amour
Thunder Hammers
Promethean brandings
Options
Can have TDA. +20ppm
Can have Storm shield. +10ppm
Can have a chapter baner +30pts
What do you think.[/quote
You know what wargey, thats not too bad, I would make termy armour 10 pts though, as they already have a 2+, so they are just paying for the invun
Don't forget, they also gain the ability to deepstrike, gain relentless, and lose sweeping advance.
wargey wrote: By the way on whammer 40k wiki
He has
Atificer amour
Drake cloak
A power wepon made for the primach
A flamer wepon
Personally, while I do trust 40k wiki a lot, I'd double check some of the quirks from Lexicanum. If the facts match, it is at least partly official, but if they don't I'd go with the Lexicanum stuff.
I actually think this codex is great, but all grey is difficult to read for me. (Don't know why.) Could you add a few "spoilers" to the specifics of some of the bigger contexts and maybe change the colors of the titles?
Example:
Wargear
Spoiler:
bla bla bla, drake here, drake there, bla,bla, bla, example!
Not to complain or anything, just my own preferences in formatting Love the work here.
As for the pyre guard, you can use an ordinary Honour Guard Squad, and simply give them the option to buy thunderhammers and storm shields for the normal price (30pts for hammer, 15pts for shield).
If you want them in terminator armour, use the Terminator Command Squad entry from C: DA and add a multi-melta option. Done.
Backspacehacker wrote: So since they are limited to 1 fa do they get extra slots in something else?
Well, they still have 3 FA slots, they're just limited to 0-1 to each individual selection. So, they can have a land speeder squadron, attack bike squad, and scout bike scout, but they can't have 3 squads of attack bikes.
Don't limit land speeder storms as they use them a lot to transport there scouts also they like fast moving things but once they have got were they want they just stand and fight.
Limitation on bikers and normal land speaders and storm talons but not storms or assalt sq have assalt sq decked out with flamers and melta guns by the way for them the flamer is more holy than the bolt gun.
Wargey, every chapter uses land speeder storms to transport scouts. Please stop using the Salamanders trilogy as a basis for rules. The 0-1 FA limit makes sense with their general limited use of bikes and speeders, which also acts as a balancing factor.
Trust me when I say the 0-1 limit for fast attack selections is fluffy, makes sense, and is balanced. The trilogy is not a good basis for rules.
May i suggest a dreadnaught with 2 ccw both with heavy flamers?
The Ironclad dread can already be outfitted in this manner normally in the vanilla codex, so that option is covered.
ah well so it is, i never run a iron clad in my nilla marines so i had no idea :p well then dual wielding flamers are covered im spend on suggesting things haha
Have you thoght about scouts SQ having a veteran sargent (salamanders ensure there scouts are not thrown away so meany of there veterans go back to the 7th company to aid with the traning of them.)
Dreadnoughts can have 2 dccw with meltagnus or can have meltaguns insted of storm bolter
wargey wrote: Have you thoght about scouts SQ having a veteran sargent (salamanders ensure there scouts are not thrown away so meany of there veterans go back to the 7th company to aid with the traning of them.)
Dreadnoughts can have 2 dccw with meltagnus or can have meltaguns insted of storm bolter
Every. Sergeant. Is. A. BLoody. Veteran. Of. The. Chapter.
Regardless, whether he is a scout, vanguard, sternguard, command squad, honor guard or tactical sergeant.
And none of the chapters want to "throw away their scouts"
Ba'ken reterns to the 7 company train the nephotites form scoria.
Scout sargents are not veterans compeared to tactical SQ the salamanders often have there most battle hardened veterans training ther scouts.
wargey wrote: Ba'ken reterns to the 7 company train the nephotites form scoria.
Scout sargents are not veterans compeared to tactical SQ the salamanders often have there most battle hardened veterans training ther scouts.
Stop using the trilogy as a source for real background fluff. Just stop. Don't do it. Stop referring to it.
As has been pointed out, every sergeant is at the minimum a sergeant or experienced member from a battle company. If you want some sort of special sergeant, just use the rules for Telion and give him a Sallies name.
But seriously, you 100% need to stop using the books as a source of fluff to be used on the table top.
Right so your saying Tu'shans a load of BS and da'kir and pretor and velcona and argos and valkun he'stan and primach valkun (there all from books you said stop using books for fluf oh and the firedrakes.)
wargey wrote: Right so your saying Tu'shans a load of BS and da'kir and pretor and velcona and argos and valkun he'stan and primach valkun (there all from books you said stop using books for fluf oh and the firedrakes.)
*sigh*
I don't even know where to start with you.
Most of the characters in the book already existed in the fluff prior to the Salamander trilogy. Tu'shan has been Chapter Master for some time now, the primarch has been well established in canon, Vulkan He'stan's fluff was also established before the trilogy. However, using the book to justify your idea for a character is just flat out wrong.
There is a very distinct difference between how a character is portrayed in a novel that revolves around them being the main protagonists, and how they're portrayed on the table top attached to a statline and a set of rules.
You can't make that distinction. That's what I'm trying to say.
wargey wrote: So I'm gak at codex writing (found that out a long time ago)
Look, wargey. I've been trying this WHOLE time to be as nice towards you as possible. During that whole time all you did was ignore my advice, and make me a scapegoat for whatever advice you read AND INTERPRETED WRONG.
Now that me, and the others you constantly decided NOT TO LISTEN, left YOUR thread, you come to a nicely balanced fandex thread, crying and bellowing about how bad YOU are at codex-design.
You are fething twelve! Did you really think you could, by ANY chance be instantly good at making a playable codex for your favorite chapter? No? I didn't think so. So just go back to your own fething thread, and complain there. Ok? If you're gonna' comment here, do it politely, and keep it on topic.
I have spoken. If you're going to contact a mod and ask someone to ban me or something, go ahead.
Woah, dudes, calm down. As much as Wargey tries my patience, at the very least his hearts in the right place. He just needs to be more open to people's suggestions.
wargey wrote: So I'm gak at codex writing (found that out a long time ago)
Look, wargey. I've been trying this WHOLE time to be as nice towards you as possible. During that whole time all you did was ignore my advice, and make me a scapegoat for whatever advice you read AND INTERPRETED WRONG.
Now that me, and the others you constantly decided NOT TO LISTEN, left YOUR thread, you come to a nicely balanced fandex thread, crying and bellowing about how bad YOU are at codex-design.
You are fething twelve! Did you really think you could, by ANY chance be instantly good at making a playable codex for your favorite chapter? No? I didn't think so. So just go back to your own fething thread, and complain there. Ok? If you're gonna' comment here, do it politely, and keep it on topic.
I have spoken. If you're going to contact a mod and ask someone to ban me or something, go ahead.
Formosa wrote: Sooo, what was the comment on my sally psychic powers?
I'm not sure, to be honest. Not that they aren't great powers, but I'm deciding between those or re-rolls n the Pyromancy table.
Also, Changelog:
Many more additions to the Army Adjustments!
Need help with the Veteran Equipment section! If there should even be one, I'm thinking something like Chaos Artefacts or Dark Angels special weapons available to only sergeants or veteran squads.
Gotta be that guy again, but I should point out that the options for the Hand flamer and Infernus pistol are +10pts and +15pts respectively in the C:BA, which would still be very appropriate in this codex.
Also, I'm curious what an inferno cannon is? Is it a flame storm cannon with the torrent rule, or does it have different stats? Not ringing a bell for me for some reason.
Haha it's all good, Blacksails. I noticed it under Flame weapons in the BRB, and I threw it in. Being "that guy" is fine by me if it helps balance the fan-dex. If this is successful, I would like to do more.
Well, I have a number of thoughts, so I'll just throw it all out there with my reasoning and see what you think about it.
I'll try and do this logically.
USRs Good, no complaints here.
Armoury Masters of the Forge looks better now. Reasonably fluffy, but not broken as the costs add up quickly if you take too many of the upgrades. Obviously play-testing would be required, but I feel like its more or less balanced at +5pts.
Hardened armour I'm still oddly iffy on. I'd probably make it a 0-1 choice per army (like Ork 'Ard Boyz) and make it so that whatever squad purchases it must do so for every model in the squad. Then again, I also feel like this would be better represented by the addition of the Siege Mantlets in IA:10 in the Siege army list. Basically, its a 50pts upgrade for a Tac squad that allows them to re-roll failed armour saves, but can't be transported, can't make sweeping advances, and can't run. But meh, either way, not really a big issue.
Rest looks fine, though.
Characters
Again, no issues here. Tu'shan is suitably strong without being game breaking. Worst case scenario is to apply a 10pts 'tax' to his cost.
Army Adjustments
I pointed out the hand flamer/infernus pistol issue, simple fix.
The Razorbacks really only need the multi-melta option. And that should be a single multi-melta, not twin-linked (see here for my reason from a model perspective: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MULTI-MELTA-RAZORBACK-CONVERSION-KIT.html). From a rules perspective, I strongly believe that units shouldn't 100% overlap in what they provide the army. Currently you have given predators a twin-linked multi-melta option, which is fine. With the razors sporting the same option, I would have very little reason to use the TLMM on the predator when I can just get them from the razors instead. By limiting the razor's upgrades to the standard list from C:SM and including the single MM for +10pts, you'd still give preds more options worth considering. Then again, I also firmly believe in simplicity, and keeping options somewhat limited eases people's understanding of what unit can take what option when showing them a new codex.
Leading from the razors to the preds, the TLMM option should really only be +10pts. Considering that a normal upgrade is to go from heavy bolter to MM for +10pts, it stands to reason going from an autocannon to TLMM would be +10pts, as this puts the pred in really close range. Sponsons look fine though; 105pts gets you 3 MM shots, but at danger close range.
The MM option for the termies is a nice addition, fits inline with the plasma cannon option for the DA. However, I feel that the flamestorm cannon option is simply too big for a terminator. Considering how big a heavy flamer looks on them, I think its stretching the limits giving them that powerful a weapon. I'd personally leave it out for balance reasons and just for fluff/modelling.
Rest is looking solid though. Just throwing ideas out there, take what you look, leave a comment.
Razorbacks - I didn't even see that on the FW site lol. I like the look of it, though.
Preds - True, I'll get on that.
Terminator weapons - I'm not sure about removing the FSC. I'm picturing something like the Cultist flamer, where the model is using both hands to carry the weapon, so a heavy weapon, even for a Terminator. The power of the weapon is offset by how big it is, perhaps I could make the model carrying it Extremely Bulky? I definitely do not picture it like the Infernus has it, that would definitely be too much. I'm thinking something like this. but a bit smaller. The Flamestorm isn't a Torrent weapon, but the IC is, so I would think the weapon would be a bit smaller, a bit like the one of the LRR.
Ok, McNinja.
I'm sorry for two things.
1. That rant. I snapped at the bloody kid because of his behaviour.
2. I'll be busy with my own fan codex, so I won't be able to give much feedback here (not that mine is neede, you guys have well covered )
3. I'll still be reading your updates here...
I agree all you nead to do is make your troops and fast attack I would make fast attack slightly slower moving and more flamers and meltas. Like give your vangaurd inferno pistols and hand flamers with power sword and price them at more but state if they don't take jump packs they count as elite.
wargey wrote: I agree all you nead to do is make your troops and fast attack I would make fast attack slightly slower moving and more flamers and meltas. Like give your vangaurd inferno pistols and hand flamers with power sword and price them at more but state if they don't take jump packs they count as elite.
How would you exactly "slow down" the fast attack?
wargey wrote: I agree all you nead to do is make your troops and fast attack I would make fast attack slightly slower moving and more flamers and meltas. Like give your vangaurd inferno pistols and hand flamers with power sword and price them at more but state if they don't take jump packs they count as elite.
How would you exactly "slow down" the fast attack?
He probably means limiting the use of jump packs/speeders as sallies can't effectively train jump troops. At least I hope that's what he means
wargey wrote: I agree all you nead to do is make your troops and fast attack I would make fast attack slightly slower moving and more flamers and meltas. Like give your vangaurd inferno pistols and hand flamers with power sword and price them at more but state if they don't take jump packs they count as elite.
How would you exactly "slow down" the fast attack?
He probably means limiting the use of jump packs/speeders as sallies can't effectively train jump troops. At least I hope that's what he means
Well, knowing wargey, I suspected he had another complicated idea coming.
If not, I understand & agree. But I still believe just limiting fast attack to 0-1 would be a decent enough change, although it IS up to McNinja.
The farseer from imperial armour 11 messes up the combat chart. I think he looses 2 troop choises, 1 elite and 1 fast attack but can have 4 heavy suport choises. Those mhyrenenias are quite warn torn and bitter. Perhaps make that a similar rule on a special character?
I would suggest that for the whole predator with Multimelta business, you could just a sort of slow Baal predator. Give it an extra point of side armour (Meltas require no ammunition, and the energy could be easily obtained inside the Predator or mounted on the rear)
This would give you a F13 S12 R10 tank, with the purpose of either flaming, using meltas or both. This is a unique roll.
Lord Magnus wrote: I would suggest that for the whole predator with Multimelta business, you could just a sort of slow Baal predator. Give it an extra point of side armour (Meltas require no ammunition, and the energy could be easily obtained inside the Predator or mounted on the rear)
This would give you a F13 S12 R10 tank, with the purpose of either flaming, using meltas or both. This is a unique roll.
This tank basically already exists as the Predator Infernus, which comes standard with a flamestorm cannon, and can be upgraded to a melta cannon (Large Blast Melta). Tasty.
Lord Magnus wrote: I would suggest that for the whole predator with Multimelta business, you could just a sort of slow Baal predator. Give it an extra point of side armour (Meltas require no ammunition, and the energy could be easily obtained inside the Predator or mounted on the rear)
This would give you a F13 S12 R10 tank, with the purpose of either flaming, using meltas or both. This is a unique roll.
This tank basically already exists as the Predator Infernus, which comes standard with a flamestorm cannon, and can be upgraded to a melta cannon (Large Blast Melta). Tasty.
Oh, alright. Sorry I am not updated with all the forgeworld rules, will be sure to check first next time. Thanks for the info!
Lord Magnus wrote: I would suggest that for the whole predator with Multimelta business, you could just a sort of slow Baal predator. Give it an extra point of side armour (Meltas require no ammunition, and the energy could be easily obtained inside the Predator or mounted on the rear)
This would give you a F13 S12 R10 tank, with the purpose of either flaming, using meltas or both. This is a unique roll.
This tank basically already exists as the Predator Infernus, which comes standard with a flamestorm cannon, and can be upgraded to a melta cannon (Large Blast Melta). Tasty.
Oh, alright. Sorry I am not updated with all the forgeworld rules, will be sure to check first next time. Thanks for the info!
If you're curious, we posted the link on the first page under the additions heading. Should be the last entry I believe.
All right. Now that I read through the whole thing, I'd like to say I like it. I really do. But did notice some stuff I'd like to be cleared down.
1. You should clarify whether the Hvy Flamer is among the Hvy Weapons or Special Weapons section in C:SM. I know through blatantly obvious logic, that it is a Hvy Weapon, but this is currently an exploitable flaw.
- Same thing for Hand Flamer
2. I also think that the "Hardened Armor" upgrade should either not be available for artificer armor, or should cost 10pts for AA and 5pts for PA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I like what you did with Tu'Shan, but maybe at that price range the TH: Heavy could just fine be S10? Although the S9 is a nicely balanced middle-ground, so it's entirely up to you.
That said, it was hard to find flaws to note to you.
Keep it up dude!
I need to ask: Does vulcan make evrything twin linked? Withouth taking anything away? That sounds mean. He is very mean usualy. But now? Your entier army has an overflow of melta/flamers.
Niiai wrote: I need to ask: Does vulcan make evrything twin linked? Withouth taking anything away? That sounds mean. He is very mean usualy. But now? Your entier army has an overflow of melta/flamers.
I did not even think of this. He is right.
How about you just remove that twin-linking/master crafting thing and drop the price range?
Niiai wrote: I need to ask: Does vulcan make evrything twin linked? Withouth taking anything away? That sounds mean. He is very mean usualy. But now? Your entier army has an overflow of melta/flamers.
i pointed this out in the other thread but between the arguing it got lost lol
but yeah i would suggest dropping chapter tactics altogether and just keep combat tactics.
Make vulkan's pts cost go down from 190 to...oh idk, 150? or 130 maybe?
because at this point the only thing he is bring with him is his relic blade and hand flamer. He already has a 2+ and a 3++ so he is pretty much a term captain with better weapons.
Vulcane is INSANE in combat. Have you ever fought him? He has sutch good saves, a relic blade and he has a heavy flamer. People are caling the new hurom vulcan.02 for a reason. He has all that makes vulcan sutch a good unit multiplyer, even withouth his twin linked madnes.
no haha i know how good he is, thats why i run him. but thats why i said lose his chapter tactics buff and drop his points down to like 150, at that point he would be above par with a term captain, which he should be.
OR
option 2, keep his rules, but make him cost like...230.
wargey wrote: Have a differant rule that is worth the same
What would you suggest then? I'm not trying to tackle your ideas to the floor, but I'm curious and interested about what you had in mind.
I'd say he COULD still twin-link, but only his unit's weaponry.
wargey wrote: Serch for the 9 all infantery can take an objective
Actually, Wargey has a really good point here. He'Stan is searching for the lost relics of his chapter. It would take a rather hefty points cost, but the idea of making all infantry with Vulcan scoring does make sense. I would add that if they are in a vehicle, they cannot score, no matter what, because they don't have the object completely secure. (Otherwise scoring Terminators are inside land raiders, and that is bad.)
Actually, its a good idea. Could do something like GK Grand Strategy where D3 units of your choice become scoring.
Could be a little abused by taking an all foot list with Devs holding your backfield, tacs in the mid range, and termies pushing ahead, every one of them scoring.
Blacksails wrote: Actually, its a good idea. Could do something like GK Grand Strategy where D3 units of your choice become scoring.
Could be a little abused by taking an all foot list with Devs holding your backfield, tacs in the mid range, and termies pushing ahead, every one of them scoring.
Right. The D3 would be more effective at keeping overall and internal balance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blacksails: About the Siege Mantlets, I'm not sure those would fit well into the army. I think we need to find something between Hardened Armor and Siege mantlets, or I could simply drop the upgrade altogether. Is there anything Salamanders use in the books that is similar to either, or just a better armor or something?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm wondering if I should add in a Salamander's Psychic powers chart. Formosa had some ideas on page 2, perhaps we could go off of those or the Pyromancy table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blacksails: About the Siege Mantlets, I'm not sure those would fit well into the army. I think we need to find something between Hardened Armor and Siege mantlets, or I could simply drop the upgrade altogether. Is there anything Salamanders use in the books that is similar to either, or just a better armor or something?
Well, they use the same power armour/artificer/terminator armour that every other chapter uses. They have a higher number of finely crafted suits of armour, but the difference between one set of normal armour and a set of Sallies armour wouldn't make any kind of difference on the tabletop. Their suits are more ornate and have fine details crafted into them, but it'd be a purely modelling/aesthetic difference. While an interesting idea, my vote would be to drop it, but then again I'm a bit of a minimalist when it comes to 40k rules.
Well, they use the same power armour/artificer/terminator armour that every other chapter uses. They have a higher number of finely crafted suits of armour, but the difference between one set of normal armour and a set of Sallies armour wouldn't make any kind of difference on the tabletop. Their suits are more ornate and have fine details crafted into them, but it'd be a purely modelling/aesthetic difference. While an interesting idea, my vote would be to drop it, but then again I'm a bit of a minimalist when it comes to 40k rules.
Less is more, when it comes to codex chapters. Of course, this depends on the codex chapter too. I'd understand a few unique armor sets available for ONE MODEL in the army. But unless clearly fitting to the fluff (like SW runic armor), there's no much use designing new sets. (I'm sorry, but I did break the rule in my codex. Of course, there is not much fluff altogether and the suit fits the chapter's theme just fine)
wargey wrote:They have a higher percentage of artificer amour and termie armour. They also have more pre heresy amour than any other chapters.
This is because the common Salamanders space marine tends to, and maintains his own gear. Including armor. This leaves more time for their manufactoria to produce more better quality - and artificer armor.
Thus, their AA could be a cheaper upgrade for the characters that may get it.
What I have also found out is, that in the old (2nd or 3rd ed, unsure) Codex: Armageddon, (which introduced the Black Templar, Salamanders, Ork Kult of Speed as their own separate armies and gave them specialized rules) the Salamanders were able to purchase AA for their tactical sergeants.
Maybe if this was possible, but maybe just for the more elite squads, like sternguard and vanguard veterans, their excess in armoring may be justified?
Ye just think about it deverstators with mm spam and a sarge with AA at the front. All armour saves on the sq took at 2+ and los
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the search for 9 D3 +2 units scoring would be better you could have 5 scoring units or 3 or 4 suits the fluff better imo and all HQ become scoring
wargey wrote: Ye just think about it deverstators with mm spam and a sarge with AA at the front. All armour saves on the sq took at 2+ and los
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the search for 9 D3 +2 units scoring would be better you could have 5 scoring units or 3 or 4 suits the fluff better imo and all HQ become scoring
Exactly the reason they aren't given AA sergeants yet...
wargey wrote: Na just a segestion. I think D3 and valkun and his SQ are scoring.
Vulkan and D3 units is more than enough. Making his squad scoring too opens up too many issues for balance. Roll a 5 or 6 in a 1500pts army, make your two devs squads scoring in the backfield, make your sternguard drop pod unit scoring, then put Vulkan with termies in a Land Raider to make them scoring too.
Frankly, I think it should just be a flat D3 without Vulkan also being scoring the more I think about it. Vulkan is no slouch in combat and particularly resilient. A flat D3 would force you to pick more selectively which squads get scoring, while also making you focus on the list building aspect. For example, a Vulkan list in this codex would be more focused on being able to hold a backfield objective with devs as you're guaranteed at least 1 extra scoring unit, allowing your Tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer to move up and occupy the middle of the board.
At 190pts, he brings effectively 85pts of wargear above a standard Captain, plus his chapter tactics. He's clearly severely undercosted in C:SM for what he can do, especially at 2000+pts. But we can't go solely on what GW has decided is balanced if we plan on altering what Vulkan does. Assuming he brings 85pts of wargear, his base cost is 185pts. What would be an appropriate cost for D3 scoring units? I honestly don't know and can only make an educated guess, as there's no upgrade in the game I can isolate to determine an approximate cost. However, I know that scoring units are important, and making certain units scoring makes them a lot more effective, like Devs for example, sitting behind an ADL on an objective.
D3 units will average 2 extra scoring units at the beginning of every game. I'm inclined to say it would be worth about 25pts (give or take 5pts), as its expensive enough to make Vulkan a 210pts character without making him undesirable.
Actually, a GK grand Master is similar. Terminator armor, plus iron halo, plus force sword (so 2+ and 3++ in cc), plus grand strategy is 175. I think he's also a psyker, but the power is hammerhand if I remember correctly.
I think 205 is better for Vulkan, mainly because I need to add in the Salamander USR.
wargey wrote: A docterine he gives
The hunt for 9 15 points per 5 man unit or HQ unit
This unit infantery only is scoring.
He has it automaticly
Again, this is unbalanced. The whole thing about needing troops choices to score is an integral part of the game. Being able to shell out 15pts to make everything scoring breaks this notion that only troops can score.
And I still think Vulkan shouldn't be scoring, but stick to a plain D3 units may become scoring, exactly as Grand Strategy in C: GK.
Also, McNinja, 205pts sounds reasonable as well, I did mention I was good with 25pts +/- 5pts.
You were making your own fandex without knowing THIS!?
One of the most basic rules in 40k. You need 2 troops and an HQ to form a legal army in games of at least 600+.
I recommend you read through your C:SM and the 6th edition rulebook again...
You were making your own fandex without knowing THIS!?
One of the most basic rules in 40k. You need 2 troops and an HQ to form a legal army in games of at least 600+.
I recommend you read through your C:SM and the 6th edition rulebook again...
I think he meant the troops in this particular fandex....
You were making your own fandex without knowing THIS!?
One of the most basic rules in 40k. You need 2 troops and an HQ to form a legal army in games of at least 600+.
I recommend you read through your C:SM and the 6th edition rulebook again...
I think he meant the troops in this particular fandex....
Could be... I still think that is odd. They should be tacticals and scouts. I assume so.
wargey wrote: I no what troops are I ment in this fandex what are troops because it might be differant like in mine.
Well, what are the troops in yours?
I'm pretty sure they are just tactical squads here.
I'm not up on Vulcan's fluff, but is he in current possession of all those of the 9 he has discovered? If not, some of them could be added in as unique one/army gear.
Troops in this fan dex are tactical and scouts, same as in Codex space Marines. I've been working all weekend, and I work all day tomorrow, so sorry for the lack of updates! I'll get to it tonight, if I have enough time.
Born in Fire: Surrounded by flames since birth, Salamanders are conditioned to casually ignore the searing temperatures that would otherwise severely burn or kill other Space Marines. All Salamanders gain Feel no Pain against Flamer weapons of all types.
--
Stubborn
--
And They Shall Know no Fear
--
Acute Vision: Due to the darkness that surrounds them constantly, Salamanders, and indeed many of the people of Nocturne, have a sort of night vision. When the Night Fighting rules are in play, Salamanders see normally up 24". Between 24" and 36" enemy units have the Stealth special rule, and beyond 36" they have the Shrouded special rule. Salamanders cannot see past 48" during Night Fighting.
--
Slower than Normal: While still much faster than a normal human, Salamanders are not a quick as their Space Marine brethren. Against enemy Space Marines (including Chaos Space Marines, with the exception of Plague Marines), Salamanders count as having an Initiative of 3.
--
Ancient Enemies: The Dark Eldar have long been a thorn in the Salamanders side, with their raids of Nocturne stretching back to the Great Crusade. As a consequence, the Salamanders have become rather proficient at fighting the Dark Eldar, and therefor all Salamanders gain both Preferred Enemy (Dark Eldar) and Hatred (Dark Eldar).
Way to big disadvantage for the advantages listed.
Back in the old days when salamanders were I3 they got free thunderhammers on chaplains and the choice to take one last turn or not, those were powerful things balancing out the I3. This is just a negative sum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, suggest a rule that allows for an all terminator army. Fluff says they have 120 veterans contrary to the usual codex 100 and also a LOT of terminator armour.
They (according to BL) also field their entire 1 company as terminators.
Interesting, Pyriel, I hadn't considered giving Chaplain more options for some reason. I'll mull over the Tu'shan-wing idea... I don't know about having yet another army that can go all terminator. Maybe with some restrictions, like not fielding Vanguard or Sternguard, just Terminators.
Also, about the negative sum, keep in mind Salamanders in the this 'dex have a lot more access to Melta and Flamer weaponry, and a lot more resistance to Flamers and such. If you also have any wargear suggestions, let me know, I'm always open to ideas!
Isn't at least one of those included in Vulcan's wargear? The spear maybe? Or was it a mantle?
According to the Wiki He'Stan wields 3 of the 5 artefacts recovered. The spear, the flamer gauntlet, and the mantle. The ship remains around Prometheus, due to it being a Forgeship, not a Battle Barge.
In the fluff valkun made 9 artifacts for his sons to find only for 4 dose he'stan search for the others have bean found by the forgefarthers before him he weild 3 kasserase mantle the hid of the legandery drake valkun defeted when having his contest with the emporah.
The gauntlet of the foge a aromurd gauntlet who molten rage none can endure.
The spear of valkun don't think there is any fluff on this
2 ramain on prometus. The calice of fire the chapters forge ship that suplys the chapter with its wepons of war.
The eye of valkun this orbital defence relay defends promeathus
4 dose he search for the engine of woes, the song of entophy, the obsidian chariot (thought to be found by one of there predesessors.) And the unbound flame (at one stage was belived it was dak'ir.
Formosa wrote:1 of the nine is a battlebarge, this could be used as an orbital bombardment, for... 30pts ish
The ship you're referring to is a forge ship, but it remains at anchor over Prometheus and would likely never be used for any sort of bombardment.
Pyriel- wrote:
Way to big disadvantage for the advantages listed.
Back in the old days when salamanders were I3 they got free thunderhammers on chaplains and the choice to take one last turn or not, those were powerful things balancing out the I3. This is just a negative sum.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, suggest a rule that allows for an all terminator army. Fluff says they have 120 veterans contrary to the usual codex 100 and also a LOT of terminator armour.
They (according to BL) also field their entire 1 company as terminators.
Would be really nice with a Tushan-wing option.
You probably just skimmed over it quickly, but Tu'shan has the ability to purchase terminator armour for +25pts which unlocks terminators as troops, allowing for a full blown Tu'shan wing.
Also, the I3 against marines is fine, its a drawback certainly, but its nowhere near being a crippling disadvantage. At best its a minor nuisance, but the other abilities the chapter has help to cancel that out. Besides, its better to err on the side of underpowered first, and adjust later. I think its fluffy while still being mostly balanced by the advantages the chapter brings.
wargey wrote:In the fluff valkun made 9 artifacts for his sons to find only for 4 dose he'stan search for the others have bean found by the forgefarthers before him he weild 3 kasserase mantle the hid of the legandery drake valkun defeted when having his contest with the emporah.
The gauntlet of the foge a aromurd gauntlet who molten rage none can endure.
The spear of valkun don't think there is any fluff on this
2 ramain on prometus. The calice of fire the chapters forge ship that suplys the chapter with its wepons of war.
The eye of valkun this orbital defence relay defends promeathus
4 dose he search for the engine of woes, the song of entophy, the obsidian chariot (thought to be found by one of there predesessors.) And the unbound flame (at one stage was belived it was dak'ir.
You need to put in a lot more effort in your basic spelling. That was legitimately hard to read. Spend the extra two minutes and proofread your work. I've typed countless of posts using my phone and my spelling/punctuation/grammar never suffered because I spent the extra time to make it legible.
Let me put it this way; why would I put in any of my time and effort into responding to you if you won't even take the time and effort to make even a small effort at typing properly. Its about respect, show us you care enough to take the time to spell and punctuate. On a 40k board, spelling 'emporah' is just not on. Not to mention every other word in your post. Please, take the extra time and make every single post you write legible and properly written.
Back in the old days when salamanders were I3 they got free thunderhammers on chaplains and the choice to take one last turn or not, those were powerful things balancing out the I3. This is just a negative sum.
Yeah, but since they also use lots of TH, this I3 against marines doesn't really affect their strongest units.
Maybe it COULD be changed to "-1I against marines", but definitely not a necessity. Just to make sure the characters are also affected.
Right I have a good set for the firedrakes on my thread normal termies and assult termies are troops and a specialist termies as elites bit ilke with deathwing have termies as troops and dethwing nights my one has normal termies assult termies and drake warriors.
Do you want me to send it over.
wargey wrote: Right I have a good set for the firedrakes on my thread normal termies and assult termies are troops and a specialist termies as elites bit ilke with deathwing have termies as troops and dethwing nights my one has normal termies assult termies and drake warriors.
Do you want me to send it over.
I'd say all Salamanders terminators are Firedrakes. The same way as all SW termies are Wolf Guard.
Getting access to terminator armor is an honor beyond anything, save for being elected as a captain or a chapter master. It is the same for Salamanders too, even if they do have more TDA.
Thus, a small buff for tactical- and assault terminator is all that is needed to represent Firedrake terminators.
Here are the ones nail told me to use you could remove dragons ire
Elites
Promethean Firedrakes
1 terminator leader 4 terminators 225 points.
Special Rules:
And They Shall know no fear
Combat Squads
War Smiths: Units with the war smiths rules may chose one melee weapon in the unit and make it master crafted. Make shure this is noted on the armylist and shown on the model.
Dragons Ire: If the opposing forces prove hard the Salamanders will send in the most elite fighters. The dragons ire will smack down like a river of glowing onyx. If you take salamander fire drakes you cannot take terminator or assault terminators in your army. This represents the salamanders focus of slamming down the hammer.
All of them have TDA.
The leadear would have a stormbolter and your choise of poverweapon. (Sword, mace, axe and spear and for 20pts a thunder hammer)
Each terminator may chose one of the following compositions:
1 storm bolter and Powerfist
2 Ligntning Claws
1 Stormshield and 1 thundhammer
For each 5 models in the unit 1 model with a stormbolter and powerfist may chose one of the following:
Exchange the storm bolter for an Assault Cannon. 30 points.
Exchange the storm bolter for an an heavy flamer 5 points.
Exchange the storm bolter for an multi melta 15 points.
May take a cyclone missile launcher for 30 points
Can up to 5 temrinators for 44 points per terminator.
You may mastercraft one or more weapons in your unit at the cost of 5 points per weapon. Be shure to note this on the army rooster and shown on the model.
One unit in your army may take a landraider as a dedicated transport."
McNinja wrote: Interesting, Pyriel, I hadn't considered giving Chaplain more options for some reason. I'll mull over the Tu'shan-wing idea... I don't know about having yet another army that can go all terminator. Maybe with some restrictions, like not fielding Vanguard or Sternguard, just Terminators.
Also, about the negative sum, keep in mind Salamanders in the this 'dex have a lot more access to Melta and Flamer weaponry, and a lot more resistance to Flamers and such. If you also have any wargear suggestions, let me know, I'm always open to ideas!
Isn't at least one of those included in Vulcan's wargear? The spear maybe? Or was it a mantle?
According to the Wiki He'Stan wields 3 of the 5 artefacts recovered. The spear, the flamer gauntlet, and the mantle. The ship remains around Prometheus, due to it being a Forgeship, not a Battle Barge.
Here is a nice take on the fluff for you to ponder on.
During the istvan massacre the first legions down (salamanders among them) rushed. They were basically all infantry and struck the first blow while the traitors behind them brought down armour and fortified for the second strike.
After istvan all legions were divided except the Salamanders who were to few.
Now here is the interesting part, the salamanders lost their infantry and not their armoury and contrary to the other legions the salamander legion armoury was never split up and shared among all the of spring chapters.
This actually means that the salamanders, not only have excellent ties with the machanicus (canon fluff) as well as excellent abilities to produce almost everything they use (also canon fluff) but they do also have the single biggest stockpile of heavy and specialist equipment of all chapters since they didnt lose it in the massacre and their legion sized armoury was never split up.
The fluff also indicates (and BL fluff outright tells) that they do possess more then a hundred terminator suits.
So if you want to be logical about it the salamanders have an abundance of all rare, specialist etc wargear and equipment back from the legion days.
wargey wrote: Here are the ones nail told me to use you could remove dragons ire
Now, there's really two ways of going about with the fire drakes, well I guess three. Because its almost best to start with a template from a marine codex when making a marine unit, you can use either a C:SM terminator squad, a C: DA deathwing terminator squad, or use a Wold Guard squad as a template.
Personally, I'd just the ordinary Vanilla terminators and add the option to take a Multi-melta (and I guess flamestorm cannon, as McNinja has already written for the entry). Simple, easy, and still represents them as veterans of the chapter.
If you go the deathwing route to make them that little more special, then you can swap a few things around to make them salamandery. Would look something like this;
Wargear Terminator Armour
Storm Bolter
Power Fist (Deathwing terminator only)
Power Sword (Deathwing Term Sergeant only)
Special Rules Hammer of Vulkan (replaces Deathwing assault, but does the exact same thing)
Split Fire
Promethean Cult
Anvil of War (replaces vengeful strike, explained below)
Priced at 44pts/model, and has the normal wargear options. May swap normal loadout for pair of lightning claws for free, and TH/SS for +5pts (though to be honest, being Sallies, I think the TH/SS option should be free, and the lightning claws +5pts for fluff reasons). Any model may take a chainfist for +5pts. Then they can do the normal heavy weapon swap as detailed in the original post.
Firedrake Terminators may select a Land Raider of any type as a dedicated transport. This vehicle must be given the armoured ceramite upgrade.
Hammer of Vulkan: When the Firedrakes are deployed, they strike together as one in the name of Vulkan. (Literally identical to the deathwing assault rule, just add in your own fluff for it)
Anvil of War: Firedrakes are sent on the most difficult and testing of missions. They meet their enemy head on with unflinching resolve and break them on them on the anvil of war. On the first round of assault during the game, all Firedrakes may re-roll any failed hits with thunderhammers during the first round of assault only. (This replaces the vengeful strike rule, which allows DA to count their shooting as TL on the turn they arrive, figured a more hammer-y rule was needed)
Promethean Cult The firedrakes spend their time isolated on Prometheus, all the better to perfect themselves in the way of the Promethean Cult. All Firedrakes are Stubborn and have Preferred Enemy: Dark Eldar. (This replaces Inner Circle, which grants fearless and PE: Chaos)
Now, I'm partial to just using ordinary terminator squads with a MM option due to its simplicity, but using the Deathwing squads as a template allows for a nice fluffier (though more complex) squad to represent the firedrakes.
That sounds cool could we make a unit like the dethwing kinghts too as it would be realy cool we could use them to represent the prye gaurd and have a Termonator comand squad that can have the chapter banner. It would fit the fluff.
I was thinking more
Firedrakes= what blacksails made
Inferno gaurd= a salamander version of the deathwing knights
Chapter comand squad= a salamander version of termie comand squad(dark angles)
I haven't sean the rules for dwk all I heard about was sheild wall and I instantly liked them.
Blacksails can you make a sallie DWK rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven't sean the rules for dwk all I heard about was sheild wall and I instantly liked them.
Blacksails can you make a sallie DWK rules. Because I go power over points so can some one put a few ideas forward.
I started with a salamanders vanilla marines army back in 5th ed, but once I read the books, I became fascinated with Marines Malevolent. My take is that they are the remnants of the lost second legion and they are searching for their lost gene-seed...
Your 'Mander rules make me pine for a green army again...
The gean seed of the 2 legion was destroyed by the forces of chaos I think they are related to the smurf marrines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes that was what I was thinking but I have never read of Tu'Shan wereing TDA blacksails do you have a idea for a salamander dethwing knight sq because I can't seem to think of any thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes that was what I was thinking but I have never read of Tu'Shan wereing TDA blacksails do you have a idea for a salamander dethwing knight sq because I can't seem to think of any thing.
Tu'shan is a chapter master of one of the most respected and well equipped chapter in the Imperium. He can do whatever the hell he wants, including the wearing of TDA. He's never mentioned as wearing it, because honestly, there's not a lot written about it. Same way Calgar can go between TDA and power armour. Totally reasonable and plausible.
Honestly, I don't think there needs to be a 'Deathwing Knight squad' equivalent for the Sallies. There's nothing in Salamander's fluff that would remotely come to close to filling the role of deathwing knights. I also believe that less is more, and we shouldn't be making a squad, item of wargear, or character for everything that has, will, or might have existed.
The basic list for units should look something like this:
HQ Tu'shan
Bray'arth Ashmantle
Captain Pellas Mir'san
Generic Captain
Generic Librarian
Generic Chaplain
Generic Master of the Forge
Honour Guard squad (with a few changes)
Command Squad (one in power armour, as per current C:SM, and an additional terminator command squad from C: DA)
Maybe one or two more special characters, like Pyriel, or something
Troops Tactical Squad
Scout squad
Elites Firedrake Terminators (this replaces both flavours of terminators in the standard C:SM)
Dreadnoughts of all flavours (including contemptors)
Techmarines
Sternguard Veterans
Fast Attack (Limit of 0-1 per FA choice, OR reduce FA to two slots, whatever McNinja wants)
Assault Squad
Vanguard Veterans
Land Speeders
Land Speeder Storms
Bike squads
Attack bike squads
Scout bike squads
Storm Talon
Storm Eagle or Storm Raven
Heavy support Predators of all variants and types
Land Raiders of all variants and types
Devs Thunderfire Cannons
Whirlwind
Vindicator
That should be the entire army list. I might have missed one or two units, but I don't think there needs to be any more additions. Pretty much what C:SM has, plus one or two additions/swaps and the inclusion of a number of FW units, like the Pred Infernus, Contemptor dreads, and the Storm Eagle.
How do we represent there elite of elites the prye gaurd all but destroyed sme still are in action that's what I wanted the DWK to represent have it in Tu'Shans rules that he may have 2 units of prye gaurd as elites have them built from the DWK rules.
But it is up to McNinja if he wants deathwing knights to be tearned in to prye gaurd I think it fits the fluff to have 2 units of the most elite troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is also herath shen master of the apothocarion defender of the last vualt.
LlamaAgility wrote:I thought Contemptors are mainly for apoc games?
Nope, 100% playable in 40k games (of course, notify your opponent ahead of the game, but seeing as this is a fan dex, you'd be doing it anyways). In fact, the Contemptor Mortis patten is an effective means of bringing some AA on to the table. That and they look awesome.
LlamaAgility wrote:Not everything needs to be represented. Some things might look cool in the books and fluff, but might no work out on TT.
Yup, exactly this. Firedrakes are just fine being represented by a single entry. No need for even more special units.
I would say 2 FA slots, because they use more than 1 assult SQ per company there is only 1 company that has no assult SQ it has 8 tactical SQ and 4 deverstater SQ so rmove bike option becuse they can't train with them.
Librarians should be required to select at least one power from the Pyromancy table.
Also, you could give the option for the Predator to field the Heavy Flamer sponsons from the Baal Predator.
I do think this may be more than the Salamanders need. I frankly think a perfectly good Salamanders codex could consist of Vulkan He'stan's Chapter Tactics (without the need to buy him), Ceramite Armor, -1 I across the board, Pyromancy required for Librarians, a limitation on Fast Attack, and some cheaper Flamers. I think the -1 initiative and the requirement to select a Pyromancy power (instead of the generally preferable Precognition/Telepathy powers) would offset the bonuses of the Chapter Tactics. But, if you're going full-on, I think you've got good ideas. Not a favor of giving them the DW Assault ability, though, as that should be DA only in my book.
wargey wrote:I would say 2 FA slots, because they use more than 1 assult SQ per company there is only 1 company that has no assult SQ it has 8 tactical SQ and 4 deverstater SQ so rmove bike option becuse they can't train with them.
Errr, not quite wargey. They have bikes, and can use them. Don't remove them entirely.
McNinja wrote:Ok, so no scout, attack, or regular bikes. I should replace those with Storm Ravens and storm talon entries.
To go with what I said above, here's how I see it.
Salamanders still make use of common 'fast attack' units, including assault squads, bikes, speeders, and scouts. Due to the nature of the planet, they're not remotely as favoured as other chapters, but are still used due to the valuable nature of them in certain situations. They are still a nearly 100% codex adherent chapter, and as such, make use of all the options available to them as prescribed by the codex.
The best way to represent their lack of favour with FA choices is to simply limit every entry in the FA section to 0-1 and remove the option for speeders to be taken in squadrons. This way, you can still take three FA choices (say an assault squad, a speeder, and a scout bike squad), but can't spam multiple speeders or bike squads.
Salamanders still see the need for fast reaction units, they'd just rather use other means first.
When I finally get in my laptop in an hour ill make some more adjustments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, finished up the Firedrake Terminators, changed what the Hammer of Vulkan is/does, and added a special thanks hooha underneath Army Adjustments.
McNinja: It is obviously not RAI, but as you have it written now, your Tac squads can still take a heavy and a specialist weapon, in addition to the heavy/hand flamer.
Lord Magnus wrote: McNinja: It is obviously not RAI, but as you have it written now, your Tac squads can still take a heavy and a specialist weapon, in addition to the heavy/hand flamer.
I think those melta-pistols and hand flamers should be restricted to sergeants. Maybe then (no offence) someone would use them.
Lord Magnus wrote: McNinja: It is obviously not RAI, but as you have it written now, your Tac squads can still take a heavy and a specialist weapon, in addition to the heavy/hand flamer.
I think those melta-pistols and hand flamers should be restricted to sergeants. Maybe then (no offence) someone would use them.
Hahaha true. Fixed it. Regardless of whether or not they get used, they are there simply for fluff reasons. If someone feels they provide an advantage in-game, cool.
Lord Magnus wrote:McNinja: It is obviously not RAI, but as you have it written now, your Tac squads can still take a heavy and a specialist weapon, in addition to the heavy/hand flamer.
Fixed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me know how the play testing goes! I do not have enough time to play test it myself, so anyone who wants to do so is more than welcome to!
Well, I can safely assume I haven't found the time (school, studies etc).
It would be great to know if someone has, though...
Same here. The only people I play with also have wonky schedules, so getting a game together if fairly tough. Once school is done, I'll be playing a lot more.
I haven't played a game in a year and a half, and this will likely continue for the next two years.
I live in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately unable to playtest.
And yet you are one of the more active people on the forum. ^_^
Well, it is just a good thing He does seem to know about the game enough, even if he is not to play the game. Although, gaming experience in the 6th ed(or any current ed in general) is REALLY important.
And yet you are one of the more active people on the forum. ^_^
LlamaAgility wrote:
Well, it is just a good thing He does seem to know about the game enough, even if he is not to play the game. Although, gaming experience in the 6th ed(or any current ed in general) is REALLY important.
Thanks guys. Yeah, its really all I can do to keep in touch with the game. I paint occasionally, but I have to wait for the better weather to go outside and prime all my guard before painting unfortunately.
I spend a lot of time reading tactica on various boards, blogs, and other related sites. I sift through bat reps and read/build army lists and spend a lot of time theory-hammering. In doing so, I get to know the rule book almost better than if I was actually playing.
Then again, I should really look into this whole 'Vassal' thing and give it a shot.
This looks really awesome! Big likes from a salamanders fan.. Curious about the strength of the rules though, some of the rules might be a little strong but they do come at a price.. I like that you put the stormraven in there, all marines should have acces to it imho, from a balancing point of view. Will be following this thread!
Could it be possible that you compile those rules in a .pdf or at least a .doc / .xls ?
Would be much easier to read / explore in depths if people are to playtest it, much easier to submit to the FLGS mailing list so that opponents can have an idea beforehand and so on
Happy to playtest it afterwards
TanKoL wrote: Could it be possible that you compile those rules in a .pdf or at least a .doc / .xls ?
Would be much easier to read / explore in depths if people are to playtest it, much easier to submit to the FLGS mailing list so that opponents can have an idea beforehand and so on
Happy to playtest it afterwards
Yeah, McNinja should perhaps do it. But no point really making a .pdf, because it is still a changing codex.
I'll put it into Word then upload to scribd. I have no clue how to upload straight to Dakka. I feel like its really simple. I cannot do it today, however, as I work all day.
McNinja wrote: I'll put it into Word then upload to scribd. I have no clue how to upload straight to Dakka.
When you are editing a post, or posting a new one you'll see the button "attachments".
Click that. Then you can see the "Filename" and there's a button for "choose file" (or what ever it is in the Engilsh version).
Also a "Description" and a bar to write in.
Note that the max size of uploads here in total is 10240kb(102,4mb I think).
Oh. I will do it tonight if I can, or tomorrow night at the latest. It is supposed to snow here, so if work gets called off due to snow, I'll put it up earlier.
Also, if anyone wants to check out my Fandex: Forge Knights thread a few threads down, that'd be awesome.
Hey, if you can make it into a PDF I can put it on my iPad and take it to the club Sunday and have a buncha people look at it and maybe play test a little...
Lord Magnus wrote:I have asked a friend about playtesting with him on Vassal, have yet to get a response.
PM me to arrange a game and I'll playtest it with you, if you run the Salamanders, as I've only just come across this thread and I gather you have more knowledge of whats going down.
McNinja wrote:
--
Acute Vision: Due to the darkness that surrounds them constantly, Salamanders, and indeed many of the people of Nocturne, have a sort of night vision. When the Night Fighting rules are in play, Salamanders see normally up 24". Between 24" and 36" enemy units have the Stealth special rule, and beyond 36" they have the Shrouded special rule. Salamanders cannot see past 48" during Night Fighting.
You may wish to re-consider this:
If you wish to keep the changes as you have above, it needs a changing of the wording, as people will try to make the argument, that you still can't target over 36" because of the wording, if you want to do this, just simple add in that Salamanders can (keyword) Target units beyond that of normal marines, this allows them to target units up to 48" when the Night Fight rules are in effect, granting the target unit the following benefits....
It's not a drastic change, but it's one of those things, that if this was a GW codex, it would get argued and rule lawyered to the nines, until the FAQ comes out, so it's better to remove any doubt from the beginning.
PDF is up! Those who want to dl the 'dex can do so to their heart's desire.
Also, I edited out the Promethean Cult special rule for the Firedrakes, as it is redundant with the Ancient Enemies part of the salamanders USR, and adjusted the Night Vision thingy so they can actually target units part 36".
McNinja wrote: Don't worry Eldar, I'm not considering this one done just yet regardless. I'm just seeing if there's a desire for more.
I was personally going to do the Exorcists at some point. I've been thinking Deathwatch also, but can't decide. Right now I'm busy on the Thousand Sons, so do as you wish.
I haven't playtested the Relictors myself yet, but got someone working on that too. It's not terrible, if you're quite done on a codex and start working on another, as you can make small changes even if you have to projects.
True, although I'm not getting a whole lot of feedback from people. I don't know if that means it'sgarbage or it's so awesome people can't handle it and must navigate away from the thread.
McNinja wrote: True, although I'm not getting a whole lot of feedback from people. I don't know if that means it'sgarbage or it's so awesome people can't handle it and must navigate away from the thread.
I guess it's just because it's a homebrew. I believe people mostly click to chapters they know, but this one is just "What the feth is this chapter? I don't dare look!"
Didn't have time to test it so far, got a tournament this week end, so I'm dedicating my weekly gaming sessions to try out my list for it
Will get to test salamanders next week if possible
I fear my gaming style will suffer from the fandex though, as I love using lots of tacticals, and paying 18 pts per Tac is rather .... costly to say the least
So, I just realized that I forgot the Combat Squads special rule in the Salamander USR. Anyone who wants to playtest this, I updated the OP, but not the pdf (not yet, at least).
Also, I will be doing the Storm Wardens next, starting sometime between now and Thursday.
This was a quote from my game yesterday, I played necron av13 spam list and to say the least, this army walked through it, the ability to take 2 melta guns in nearly every unit was amazing and meltaguns on rhinos was extremely powerfull ( this needs point increase slightly), between flamestorm dreads, cheap th/ss firedrakes and twin linked goodness this force eats the living crap out of armour lists, like I said about dark angels "if you use terminators against dark angels you mad", "if you spam armour against salamanders, your mad"
This gives a strong theme to this army, they are ultra short range kings, at 12" you get totally slaughtered.
Thank you! I updated the Rhino meltagun as suggested, it is now 15 points. I'm glad you enjoyed playing with these guys, I hope your opponent wasn't too upset
Ok so I have tried this out vs a few lists now, I have noticed a few must haves.
Tu shen: this dude is a beatstick, not as nasty as lysanander, but can go toe to toe with Abby...can't win but can hurt him enough for you firedrakes to Finnish him
Dreads: oh how I love that flamestorm, pod this baby in and laugh your balls off, this is my go to guy for.anti horde, take the twin linked upgrade and he is.gravy
Melta: take it on rhinos, take it on sarges and take it in tacticals, throw in a multi melta too, armour spam hates salamanders
Vulkan hestan: this man in the tits, scoring and makes other units scoring, I find 6/7 scoring units is a pain in thr arse.
Formosa wrote: Ok so I have tried this out vs a few lists now, I have noticed a few must haves.
Tu shen: this dude is a beatstick, not as nasty as lysanander, but can go toe to toe with Abby...can't win but can hurt him enough for you firedrakes to Finnish him
Dreads: oh how I love that flamestorm, pod this baby in and laugh your balls off, this is my go to guy for.anti horde, take the twin linked upgrade and he is.gravy
Melta: take it on rhinos, take it on sarges and take it in tacticals, throw in a multi melta too, armour spam hates salamanders
Vulkan hestan: this man in the tits, scoring and makes other units scoring, I find 6/7 scoring units is a pain in thr arse.
Oh, and are there any "auto-take" units? I would assume either Tu'shan or He'stan plus meltas on everything, but are there any units that could be better to make EVERYTHING a legitimate option?
The only must take thing I.have consistently used is meltas on everything that can have it, all tacticals will take full melta too and the drop pod ones will take the twin linked upgrade, vulkan is very good for making those 10 man termy units scoring.
None are op that I.can see yet, playing with this dex again tonight
Use GS to make the capes and anvil industries storm shields use honour guard heads on paladins GW cut of the gk symbols and put on some salamander brass etched symbol FW.
wargey wrote: Use GS to make the capes and anvil industries storm shields use honour guard heads on paladins GW cut of the gk symbols and put on some salamander brass etched symbol FW.
Please wargey. We discussed this already. But try using commas...
Formosa wrote: The only must take thing I.have consistently used is meltas on everything that can have it, all tacticals will take full melta too and the drop pod ones will take the twin linked upgrade, vulkan is very good for making those 10 man termy units scoring.
None are op that I.can see yet, playing with this dex again tonight
Dev squad, 4 multimeltas, meltagun sarge, rhino with meltagun, twin link upgrade to unit, even moving max speed with the rhino this was a tad op, not much but a little.
I drove up to a land raider, deployed so that I was in melta range and rolled dem dice, even needing 6's I scored 2 hits(due to twin linked) and blew it appart, I found that even on the move the re rolls made multimeltas better than missiles and las cannons, now thematically this is cool, salamanders slowly walking up melting crap left right and centre, I just wonder if it is what you intended.
Hmm... I might change the twin linking to just one model per unit. Or two.
And yes, it is what I intended; the Salamanders as masters of close quarter anti armor. Or just anti armor in general. I think someone in this thread said that Salamanders using this codex are the masters of close range shooting, which is what I picture salamanders to be.
The salamanders use melta wepons as the anvil and flamers as the hammer and then charge in with chainblades, thunder hammers, combat blades Ect. to mop up the rest.
McNinja wrote: Hmm... I might change the twin linking to just one model per unit. Or two.
And yes, it is what I intended; the Salamanders as masters of close quarter anti armor. Or just anti armor in general. I think someone in this thread said that Salamanders using this codex are the masters of close range shooting, which is what I picture salamanders to be.
First: love the codex. Saved and wish GW would pick it up as its own 'dex. IMHO one of the most popular armies out there meaning they would make a boatload.
Second: your codex is the epitome of what the promethean creed should be. perfectly done imho.
McNinja wrote: Hmm... I might change the twin linking to just one model per unit. Or two.
And yes, it is what I intended; the Salamanders as masters of close quarter anti armor. Or just anti armor in general. I think someone in this thread said that Salamanders using this codex are the masters of close range shooting, which is what I picture salamanders to be.
First: love the codex. Saved and wish GW would pick it up as its own 'dex. IMHO one of the most popular armies out there meaning they would make a boatload.
Second: your codex is the epitome of what the promethean creed should be. perfectly done imho.
Well, I warn you my post will not have much value...
I agree, this codex is well thought out, balanced for what I've read, and seems competitive and fun enough.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
Although the funny thing is, the dude in the other thread probably knows a whole lot more about Salamanders than I do.
