Putting the mander in Salamander - Need playtesters!

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**McNinja**

Codex is nearly complete, I just need some people to playtest it!

Salamander USR: The Salamander Special Rule is made up of the following special rules:

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Armory of the Salamanders:

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Suggestions for upgrades welcome!
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Characters:

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Army Adjustments (In progress):

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Special Thanks
This fan-dex was made possible by Blacksails, LlamaAgility, Wargey, Formosa, Washout77, Backspacehacker, and quite a few more. Thanks everyone for helping out!

For those looking for a .pdf.... Behold!

**Backspacehacker**

Tossing it out there, i know the whole fire resist thing is a big deal but how about this:

Born in Fire: All models hit by a flamer or torrent template are hit on a 2+: still allows for a chance to use the whole "we are immune to fire thing, but still have a chance to be killed by it.

**undead flesh addict**

I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OP IMO

**washout77**

undead flesh addict wrote:
I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OP IMO

Oh trust me it's better than that other thread

And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game

**McNinja**

Backspacehacker wrote:Tossing it out there, i know the whole fire resist thing is a big deal but how about this:

Born in Fire: All models hit by a flamer or torrent template are hit on a 2+: still allows for a chance to use the whole "we are immune to fire thing, but still have a chance to be killed by it.

I'm not sure about that. Flamers would become S3, H. Flamers S4, and flamestorms S5. Against a T4 marine, it simply becomes a slightly less effective weapon, which is what I'm going for with this rule. They can certainly be killed by it, but I don't know about having certain models simply not being hit by the weapon.

undead flesh addict wrote:I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OP IMO

I don't think the 1 re-roll of a failed armor save roll of 1 per game is OP, but I see what you mean with the overloading of the rules. I do have a tendency to do that. Oh, and sorry, I updated the OP to reflect what's actually up with the MC PA rule

washout77 wrote:
undead flesh addict wrote:
I'm not entirely up on the salamanders fluff, but how about instead of the free master crafted weapons; characters can upgrade their weapons to master crafted for 10pts per weapon, with the cost increasing to 15 pts for independant characters, as while a chapter specific rule set is cool, you just have to make sure you don't shower them in free upgrades
btw; master crafted power armour is OP IMO

Oh trust me it's better than that other thread

And how is that OP? They get to re-roll one failed armor save (of a 1) a a game

Thank you

Although the funny thing is, the dude in the other thread probably knows a whole lot more about Salamanders than I do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will also be updating the OP as I go, so be sure to check it every now and again, assuming this thread gets off of the ground.

**Warp Angels**

How about instead of lowering the Str of flamers they get FNP against flamers ?

**McNinja**

Huh. That's actually a really good idea. I hadn't even considered FNP, despite me wanting Salamanders to not feel any pain from flamer weapons...

**Warp Angels**

Glad i could point that out

**wargey**

Valkun he'stan will have to be nerfed as you are going to have 2link master crafted flamers.
I think due to the fluf Tu'shan should have a rule like baliels one that makes termis troops

**McNinja**

Well, from the very little I actually read on Tu'shan, I was unable to find out exactly what his weaponry, equipment, or fighting style was. I didn't see anything about him wearing terminator armor, though.

**wargey**

He is normaly portraded with tda inferno pistol Thunder Hammer and the firedrakes have more suits of TDA than most if not all chapters around 120

**Blacksails**

Tu'shan should not be S5. He's strong, sure, but still a S4 marine, like nearly every other chapter master described as being particularly strong.

As for his hammer, the two styles are fine, and have worked well for other characters in different codices. However, striking at I with a Sx2 weapon is very strong with 3 attacks, so I'd probably opt to make it so that he may only make 1 attack in his hard mode. To compensate for his S4, make his fast mode S +2, effectively making it a cross between a relic blade and a thunderhammer.

The twin linked melta gun is a neat idea on the hammer, but I'd personally just give him either a slightly better hand flamer, or an infernus pistol (S8 AP1, R6", Melta), obviously master-crafted.

The ability to swap bolters for flamers or melta guns for his command squad is unnecessary. Remember, they are space marines who follow the codex almost entirely with the exception of their chapter organization, which still mostly follows the codex. They are still marines who believe the bolter is a holy weapon, and particularly effective holy weapon at that. You also don't want to overdo the flamer/melta thing. There are certainly some units that could use a flamer/melta option (tac squads taking a heavy flamer instead of heavy bolter, for example), but not everything needs to be all flame/melta all the time.

Besides, a command squad is the shooty option, the honour guard should be decked out in thunderhammers, stormshield, and relic blades.

Your focus should be on simplicity, and on using as many existing units in C:SM (with a few units form other books or FW) while tweaking a single option or two as needed. No need to reinvent the wheel.

So far so good though. I'm still on the fence with the Masters of the Forge USR, as it essentially a free boost to everything with no cost.

I'll try and think of a different USR for them and come back here.

**McNinja**

Blacksails wrote:
Tu'shan should not be S5. He's strong, sure, but still a S4 marine, like nearly every other chapter master described as being particularly strong.

As for his hammer, the two styles are fine, and have worked well for other characters in different codices. However, striking at I with a Sx2 weapon is very strong with 3 attacks, so I'd probably opt to make it so that he may only make 1 attack in his hard mode. To compensate for his S4, make his fast mode S +2, effectively making it a cross between a relic blade and a thunderhammer.

The twin linked melta gun is a neat idea on the hammer, but I'd personally just give him either a slightly better hand flamer, or an infernus pistol (S8 AP1, R6", Melta), obviously master-crafted.

The ability to swap bolters for flamers or melta guns for his command squad is unnecessary. Remember, they are space marines who follow the codex almost entirely with the exception of their chapter organization, which still mostly follows the codex. They are still marines who believe the bolter is a holy weapon, and particularly effective holy weapon at that. You also don't want to overdo the flamer/melta thing. There are certainly some units that could use a flamer/melta option (tac squads taking a heavy flamer instead of heavy bolter, for example), but not everything needs to be all flame/melta all the time.

Besides, a command squad is the shooty option, the honour guard should be decked out in thunderhammers, stormshield, and relic blades.

Your focus should be on simplicity, and on using as many existing units in C:SM (with a few units form other books or FW) while tweaking a single option or two as needed. No need to reinvent the wheel.

So far so good though. I'm still on the fence with the Masters of the Forge USR, as it essentially a free boost to everything with no cost.

I'll try and think of a different USR for them and come back here.

I'm not sure about Tu'shan's S4. He has the least devoted to him on Lexicanum, but his entry is the only one out of the other Chapter Masters that mentions phsyical strength. And his weapon is Unwieldy, so he does strike at I1 if he goes Hard. I'm thinking I could add a cost into Masters of the Forge, perhaps +5 points if they choose to TL or MC something?

My idea with MotF was to take Vulkan He'Stan's Chapter Tactics and make it bigger, but not OP.

**Backspacehacker**

I think he meant give him a S5, hes just saying most marines are S4 and chapter masters are only slightly stronger then marines. Chapter masters are just more skilled then them, So giving him a S5 would be a bit better.

**Blacksails**

What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.

Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.

**Lord Magnus**

Blacksails wrote:
What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.

Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.

Blacksails makes an interesting point here. His mastery of the weapon he wields, in addition to his strength would give him a power sword with +2 Strength. It shows that he isn't off the charts stronger than other marines, but that the extra bit of strength and his fighting abilities allow him to hit harder. If this is the case, then maybe you could make hard mode s10 as it is written now, but I am not so sure about that.

**Blacksails**

There's nothing wrong with giving him a S10 hammer; Lysander has one and he's not broken. I suggest that he be S4, with a S10 hammer in hard mode, and S: User+2, AP3 in fast mode (essentially a relic blade). Its powerful, certainly, easily a 40-50pt weapon assuming a thunderhammer's base cost is 30pt. You just have to reflect that in his points cost. He doesn't, however, buff the army, so he's not broken or overpowered, he's just strong in combat, but limited by his 3 attacks and ability to be ID'd by S8 or above, which is fine and balanced. If you really wanted, you could give him a small sort of rites of battle boost for units within 6"-12", though it would bump his cost up.

**McNinja**

Blacksails wrote:There's nothing wrong with giving him a S10 hammer; Lysander has one and he's not broken. I suggest that he be S4, with a S10 hammer in hard mode, and S: User+2, AP3 in fast mode (essentially a relic blade). Its powerful, certainly, easily a 40-50pt weapon assuming a thunderhammer's base cost is 30pt. You just have to reflect that in his points cost. He doesn't, however, buff the army, so he's not broken or overpowered, he's just strong in combat, but limited by his 3 attacks and ability to be ID'd by S8 or above, which is fine and balanced. If you really wanted, you could give him a small sort of rites of battle boost for units within 6"-12", though it would bump his cost up.

I'm not sure exactly what sort of Rites I could do, though. The salamander USR covers pretty much everything, but I'm open to suggestions. Is there some fluff that we can extrapolate into a special rule, like giving all units within 12" fearless or something?

Lord Magnus wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
What I'm saying is that while he's described as being strong, I highly doubt it would warrant a strength boost. There are so incredibly few marine characters with S5, yet many are described as being very strong. He honestly works just fine both on the tabletop and with the fluff at base S4.

Also, I confused unwieldly with specialist weapon somehow, so ignore my comment about that. With him at S4, fast mode can be S +2.

Blacksails makes an interesting point here. His mastery of the weapon he wields, in addition to his strength would give him a power sword with +2 Strength. It shows that he isn't off the charts stronger than other marines, but that the extra bit of strength and his fighting abilities allow him to hit harder. If this is the case, then maybe you could make hard mode s10 as it is written now, but I am not so sure about that.

Actually, I could make the Fast +2 S and the Hammer S9. He's not super strong, but strong enough to make the Thunder hammer hurt a bit more. Does that make sense, or should I just go with S10?

**Blacksails**

Honestly, he's fine with a S8, 9, or 10 hammer, just reflect it in the cost. Depends on whether you want him to be a cc beatstick, or a balance of close combat prowess and army buffs. When figuring his base cost, use the base chapter master and add his wargear (master crafting is 5pts), then just be reasonable if you give him any other special rules.

**McNinja**

Well then, I put him at 210 points.

**Blacksails**

210 is awfully close to what I'd agree with as well, but for kicks, here's my math on his pointage.

Chapter Master base...125pts
+Thunderhammer and Stormshield (to represent the 3++) is another 45pts
+Artificer armour is another 15pts
+twin-linked melta gun (I'll go with the base cost +5pts for 'master-crafting' it) is another 15pts
+master crafting the hammer and another point of strength, and the second combat mode, we'll call that a 20pts upgrade (5 for master craft, 5 for the point of strength, 10 for the extra mode [though I can see maybe only 5 for the second mode])
+plus his fire resistant re-roll ability should be a 5pts upgrade.
=225pts

Which to me seems pretty reasonable for a strong marine close combat character sporting a TL-melta gun as well.

**Nevie**

How would you work Vulkan into this? I mean you really can't leave the poor guy out. Would he need to have a different rule set since his twin link/ master craft buff would be kind of redundant?

**McNinja**

Blacksails wrote:210 is awfully close to what I'd agree with as well, but for kicks, here's my math on his pointage.

Chapter Master base...125pts
+Thunderhammer and Stormshield (to represent the 3++) is another 45pts
+Artificer armour is another 15pts
+twin-linked melta gun (I'll go with the base cost +5pts for 'master-crafting' it) is another 15pts
+master crafting the hammer and another point of strength, and the second combat mode, we'll call that a 20pts upgrade (5 for master craft, 5 for the point of strength, 10 for the extra mode [though I can see maybe only 5 for the second mode])
+plus his fire resistant re-roll ability should be a 5pts upgrade.
=225pts

Which to me seems pretty reasonable for a strong marine close combat character sporting a TL-melta gun as well.

I like it. My math was shoddy at best

I don't think I accounted for all of the twin-linking/Master-Crafting.

Nevie wrote:How would you work Vulkan into this? I mean you really can't leave the poor guy out. Would he need to have a different rule set since his twin link/ master craft buff would be kind of redundant?

It would be rather redundant. I think the best thing would be to simply remove his Chapter Tactics and power his point cost by a good 20 points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok dudes, anyone have any ideas for vehicles? I know Vulkan lists worked well with Drop Pods, or should we leave everything as is?

**Blacksails**

There's not much that needs to be done for vehicles. Include the Predator Infernus as a heavy support choice (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Predator_infernus.pdf), and add armoured ceramite hulls for Land Raiders and Preds, and include a multi-melta turret option for razorbacks at +25pts I figure. Include Brayarth Ashmantle for an HQ choice (one of the Badab War books) and add the option for a flamestorm cannon on dreads for +10pts replacing the multi-melta.

Erm, yeah. Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.

**McNinja**

Yeah, there's not much to do for the vehicles. After all of that, there really isn't much more to do to make the Salamanders more unique.

**Blacksails**

McNinja wrote:
Yeah, there's not much to do for the vehicles. After all of that, there really isn't much more to do to make the Salamanders more unique.

Pretty much. There's a siege dreadnought variant FW put out which could be interesting, but the Ironclad is good enough. JustDave's SM codex included the option to have a venerable Ironclad which was neat.

If you want to follow tradition with most Sallie's fandexes, an imposition of 0-1 for all fast attack choices is fairly standard. If you really want, you could further restrict that by also making landspeeders unavailable in squadrons, but I find the the 0-1 for FA choices to be limiting enough for fluff reasons.

I'm still not sold on the Masters of the Forge USR, as it steps on Vulkan's ability and feels on the overpowered side for a fan dex. Then again, I also believe an army should have 0-2 special rules that are universal (besides marines, who will have 3 standard, plus whatever their codex specialty is), so between Born in Fire, Stubborn, and Acute Vision, I don't think they really need a whole lot.

Maybe you could make a variation of Masters of the Forge where any sergeant may master-craft any of his weapons for 5pts per weapon, or have access to some kind of special armoury of unique weapons (drakescale cloaks, sigil of Vulkan, so on). While every Salamander is technically a better armourer than most marines from other chapters, their personal skill will not really show through in the limited stats we have to fudge with without seeming overpowered or mary sue-esque. However, sergeants are far more skilled in every aspect of the Promethean Cult, and would stand to reason their weapons would be great enough to warrant some sort of boost in game (master-crafting works well for this). Obviously, this would apply to Captains and other HQs as well, but I feel like sergeants (and by extension, veterans) could benefit from this without being game breaking, as it would still cost 5pts per weapon.

Well, that, and it would fit the whole cinematic nonsense 6th is pushing on us by modelling our sergeants in fancy armour with fancy weapons taking on some chaos champion with his shiny hammer. Or something.

Just spitballin, let me know what you think about that idea.

**Warp Angels**

Tu'Shan should also make Terminators Troops (Assault+Tacticle).
Agreed on the adding of the FW stuff aswell...

Salamanders could also have PE (DE) as they constantly raid nocturne ? or Hatred (DE) might be more fitting ?

**Blacksails**

Warp Angels wrote:
Tu'Shan should also make Terminators Troops (Assault+Tacticle).
Agreed on the adding of the FW stuff aswell...

Salamanders could also have PE (DE) as they constantly raid nocturne ? or Hatred (DE) might be more fitting ?

These are both good points.

If I were to run Sallies using already existing codices, I'd run DA with Belial and all termies to represent the Firedrakes. But since we're discussing a fan dex, I'd make the following option.

Tu'Shan may replace his artificer armour with Terminator armour for 25pts.

If Tu'shan is so equipped, Terminator squads become troop choices, and may select a Land Raider of any variant as a dedicated transport. Land Raiders purchased in this manner must be equipped with the armoured ceramite upgrade (to represent them being relics of the chapter).

Boom.

And a big yes to the PE DE. They do in fact despise DE particularly, as they have raided Nocturne since before Vulkan. Also factor in the Battle of Commoragh, where a significant portion of the chapter invaded Commoragh to rescue their strike vessel, and you get a chapter with a particular loathing of DE. Fluffy and fun.

**McNinja**

Oh damn, this stuff is great! I'm too tired to add it all in now, but tomorrow I have tons of free time, so I'll put it all together then.

**Blacksails**

I'd also include Bray'arth Ashmantle as an HQ. He costs more than a Land Raider, but is AV13 front, venerable, no one can roll more than 1 dice against him for penetration (a la old monolith) and comes with two DCCW with two heavy flamers that may also be fired as a single TL-melta gun. Hilariously awesome, and the model is to die for *drool*.

Oh, forgot to mention, that anyone locked in combat with him takes a S5, AP4 hit, because, you know, flames and stuff.