I read about this list online. Generally touted net lists are not terrible but honestly I do not get this one. It doesn't look right to me and yet it has been winning a few games at tournaments and has a reputation of being a bit nasty. Then I never really liked the harliestar either. Sure it has stealth, shrouding, psychic defense and poison. But still ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL - 200 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL - 200 [DE]
Troop:20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian jetbikes - 66 {EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex, Spirit Syphon - 100 [DE]
Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

TOTAL POINTS: 1850

I get the idea ... Warriors behind aegis. Eldrad casts invisibility like candy - I believe twice per turn possible. Eldard Vect with wyches, Baron with beasts. Cronos just irritating passing a few tokens out. But how does it even get into cc? How does it deal with flyers? Ignore them? How could it handle a baleflamer or DK? I'm told it is a pita to play against but it looks pretty weak to me on paper. Am I missing something?

Eldrad can't invisibility twice. 3 Warp charge a turn and thats a 2 warp charge power.

How the list works, I've no idea

Actually my bad - beasts get prescience and invisibility on the charge. Still ...

 felixcat wrote:
I read about this list online. Generally touted net lists are not terrible but honestly I do not get this one. It doesn't look right to me and yet it has been winning a few games at tournaments and has a reputation of being a bit nasty. Then I never really liked the harliestar either. Sure it has stealth, shrouding, psychic defense and poison. But still ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL - 200 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL - 200 [DE]
Troop:20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian jetbikes - 66 {EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex, Spirit Syphon - 100 [DE]
Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

TOTAL POINTS: 1850

I get the idea ... Warriors behind aegis. Eldrad casts invisibility like candy - I believe twice per turn possible. Eldard Vect with wyches, Baron with beasts. Cronos just irritating passing a few tokens out. But how does it even get into cc? How does it deal with flyers? Ignore them? How could it handle a baleflamer or DK? I'm told it is a pita to play against but it looks pretty weak to me on paper. Am I missing something?

I would have thought that vect would go with the beasts and baron to make a beast star. Fearless, stealth, grenades, hit and run, rending, and 2 2++ saves for things that ignore cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the cronos spits out pain tokens so things get FC FNP and Fearless as well.

I would have thought you would want vect with a large wyche squad but you may be right.

 felixcat wrote:
I would have thought you would want vect with a large wyche squad but you may be right.

vect is slow, but the beasts need to be fearless. also PE makes them rock: rerolling all those attacks with rending can get silly. You end up with a silly conga line to keep him in coherency but who cares. As if beasts didnt have enough models or something. Also remember that that unit has 7 characters for challenging.

This list won at Templecon earlier this month. I played against the guy who won templecon the week before, and it rocked my CSM PM army.

I talked a lot about how this list did well here on my blog.
http://www.simhammer.com/node/8

You can also read a long thread about the list here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/beast-pack-of-cheeze-t4833.html

The list works by taking advantage of the rules mechanics of 6th edition. By stacking up the special rules, it can make a single beast pack nearly unstoppable. It removes the drawbacks of the beasts and replaces them with strong advantages.

Simply put, this is the best assault list in the game today. As more events are won by it, and more people are clobbered by it, people will start to see what it entails. Until then people will look at the list and scratch their head in amazement.

AAh I see. Vect and the Baron start with the beasts and move as fast as possible. i thoiught you would start all the characters in the beast squad turn one and then split them off into the wyches. Once Eldard gets to cast invisibility and prescience on the beasts they will pretty much rip through anything no? I think the trick is you really want to get first turn with Vect. And still the list does not convince me.
I thought that Eldard maned the quad. So he is not always close enough to cast invisibility on the beasts? But your report seems to imply otherwise - he follows the beats with a pack of warriors.
Wow - metagaming at its finest.

 felixcat wrote:

I thought that Eldard maned the quad. So he is not always close enough to cast invisibility on the beasts?

with the number of models beasts have and the speed with which they can move they can easily conga line to over near eldrad to get invis. 24" + 18" conga is pretty far.

If not eldrad can walk around, letting some BS 4 chump man the gun if needed.

So what does it do when half the time it doesn't have Invisibility and Prescience?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So what does it do when half the time it doesn't have Invisibility and Prescience?

It's not quite 1/2. He gets 4 rolls on the table. That's a 2/3 chance of getting the power he wants.

Also that list will crack a big big smile if it meets lascannons/meltaguns etc. The footslogging ellement means that they have very few targets for heavy weapons. True you can kill 15 wythes, perhaps even 30, but then you will have an insane unit of beats in your face. I think it will overwhelm with a lott of targets. It would be hard even withouth invisabilaty. Invisabilaty helps of course. Vs landraiders it will have 30 haiwire grenades. Vs flyers it will try to just survive.

I would say they would have problems with dragons but as labmouse42 points out in his battelreport...no. Also, the player is very good at spacing out. It is hard to land that dragon.

This is one of those cases where the proof is in the pudding.

Look at templecon earlier this month. Ordosean clobbered people with the DA beast pack.

As you say - the proof is in the pudding. And it really does not look that difficult to play. Most decisions are made for you. It is just a question of placing the models correctly when advancing. I'm leery of the lack of troops but I'm assuming the reserved jetbikes help.

So if you can survive the flyer spam (multiple drakes etc), necron scythes and barges, you should be okay.

 Niiai wrote:
Also that list will crack a big big smile if it meets lascannons/meltaguns etc. The footslogging ellement means that they have very few targets for heavy weapons. True you can kill 15 wythes, perhaps even 30, but then you will have an insane unit of beats in your face. I think it will overwhelm with a lott of targets. It would be hard even withouth invisabilaty. Invisabilaty helps of course. Vs landraiders it will have 30 haiwire grenades. Vs flyers it will try to just survive.

I would say they would have problems with dragons but as labmouse42 points out in his battelreport...no. Also, the player is very good at spacing out. It is hard to land that dragon.

it laughs off lascannons and meltagun with the 2+ cover save. Failing to get that, it has 3+ from the ADL+stealth. Failing that it has khymera with a 4++ or two characters with a 2++. The list will get first turn very often. The beasts will find somethign to assault turn 2. So you get 1 turn to shoot it with your lascannons and meltaguns(and plasma)

 labmouse42 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So what does it do when half the time it doesn't have Invisibility and Prescience?

It's not quite 1/2. He gets 4 rolls on the table. That's a 2/3 chance of getting the power he wants.

He only gets 3 rolls on Telepathy if he has Prescience.

You keep rolling on the table until you get invisibilty. Then you pick of prescience.

 Exergy wrote:
it laughs off lascannons and meltagun with the 2+ cover save. Failing to get that, it has 3+ from the ADL+stealth. Failing that it has khymera with a 4++ or two characters with a 2++. The list will get first turn very often. The beasts will find somethign to assault turn 2. So you get 1 turn to shoot it with your lascannons and meltaguns(and plasma)

Exergy is right on the money here. I've seen this in action. In worst case, the beasts are in assault on turn 3. Usually they are in assault on turn 2.

Invisibility is the icing on the cake -- though its nasty even without.
What makes the list work so well is that the special characters remove the disadvantage of beasts. In the game I played ordoSean, I assaulted the beast pack with 20 PMs. I won the round of combat by 10 doing a ton of wounds him. Instead of falling back and getting shot up, he did not care because he was fearless. In the following three assault rounds, the remaining beasts plus vect cleaned up a total of 40 plague marines.
Edit : I want to stress how hard this is normally. PMs are T5, 3+ with FNP. They are extremely durable in this edition. 40 PMs are tough as 64 grey hunters to dislodge with Vect. When attacked by STR 4 attacks that give normal armor saves, 40 PMs are as tough as 80 grey hunters to dislodge. The fact that the beasts did it so quickly is simply amazing.

 Niiai wrote:
You keep rolling on the table until you get invisibilty. Then you pick of prescience.

Remember, Vect gives perferred enemy to the beasts. Prescience is not as important as invisibility, so you can completely skip prescience if you wish.

With invis, your hitting on 3s, and rerolling 1s. That's nearly as good as prescience, and even better when you include that perferred enemy works on 'to wound' rolls as well.

I read your BP. Why did your Helldrakes Hover? They wouldnt get assaulted if you didn't hover them.

This list relies on getting Psychic powers, and if you dont get them, the Beast unit will die to shooting like it already does.

I play a large Beast squad and know its limitations.

The list is not bad by any means. But relying on getting Invisibility and such is not a sound "tactic." Neither is having an opponent who Hovers their Helldrakes.

I never hovered the hell drakes. I after they flew past his beast pack I used them to burn wytches, true born and jetbikes

Howd the Helldrakes get assaulted then?

They never did. Where are you reading this battle report?

Your link you posted....

http://www.simhammer.com/node/8



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"But I will just...
Helldrakes
I brought two helldrakes. My opponent spread out his razorwings. I only hit 3 per helldrake, had to eat a Khymerae or Beastmaster before I could eat a Razorwing flock. I managed to kill 5 of them before he got into assault with my helldrakes -- and it was not enough to stop him from wiping the CSM."

On, that was a mistype. I ment he got into assault with my PMs
I'll correct that.

Did he just string this squad out in a long line? Thats the only way Vect could keep up. And is he did string it out, so many of those beasts would not make it to combat for atleast a turn or even 2.

This is from a private conversation I had about the beast pack earlier. I hope this helps explain what I saw.
What he did was spread his birds out around the pack so I could not get to them first. Let me show you, as pictures are worth 1000 words.

On turn one, he moved forward and kept all his models in area terrain. With invis this gave every model a 2+ cover save.

On my turn one, I shuffled my rhinos around to delay the time until contact. The game was KPs, so I was working to deny KPs and use my drakes to score them from him.

On turn two, he continued his advance. Notice how Baron and Vect are both hanging out in the back?


ON my turn 2, I came in and flamed the s*** out of his beast pack. Notice how my vector strikes kill all the beasts around it. I then was able to get 3 beasts per flame template. He LoS'ed three of two and took the rest on the baron -- who made all his shadow field saves.


I dropped what I had out of my rhinos to open up with bolters and accept the charge. My plan was to do enough damage to wipe out the beasts.
At the time I told myself 'I got this, Ill lose about 1/3 my PMs, but Ill take em down' I've used PMs to take down terminators before, so expected 40 of them to do the job.


On his turn 3 he moved past the drakes. As you can see, he was setting himself up for an assault.


This is his assault on the bottom of my 3. I brought my additional two squad in to help reinforce my lord. His wytches bounced off my PMs (no suprise there) and his dogs did jack -- but his birds rended out a full squad by themselves. On this turn I did 12 wounds to his squad, and won the combat by 8. If he was not fearless he would have ran and let me bolt him again..


After the game we talked more about it. He said he would never place all of razorbirds next to each other but spread them out. I said I would go after his achilees heel -- Vect. Were both more prepared for this game. He also said he would go for the 4++ divination spell next time we played. I told him that would cost him in the assault, as one of the problems my PMs has was hitting on 5s.

PM-Conversation wrote:Next turn hoover (as this gives you the mobilaty to "catch up" to the beasts you just vector striked) would give you some more kills, assuming he does not manadge to charge you before his turn 3.

If I hovered the drakes, wytches would have haywired them to death. There is no way I would have tried to do that for the few shots.

Also, note that he was in assault by turn 3. I could have stretched it to turn 4 by huddling on the other side of the board, but I would have been boxed into my rhinos badly. I was trying to save as many KPs as possible.

PM-Conversation wrote: The rest of his list did not seem that impressive. Wytches will tie you up in CC, but that is about it.

Again, thats stuff that looks one way on paper but plays out another. His trueborn killed my havocs on turn 1. His guardian jetbikes were moving to avoid getting shot (but acted as objective grabbers) HIs warrior squad acted as a big shield for Eldrad, so I could not snipe him out.

His trueborn killed my havocs on turn 1

How dis 4 splinter cannons from across the board do that?

He was 36" away. 3 havocs where in range, and he killed all 3 of them. I stuffed the last 2 havocs into a rhino to prevent him from scoring the KP

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:


A Colossus or two would wreck face on this list. As would a Deathwing force (Vect/Eldrad/Baron in the back? Deep Strike on that side of the unit, and fire away.)

Eldrad is with the warriors

Baron can be up with the beasts

DS and try and kill vect
Vect LOS 2+, whatever gets through goes on vects 2++.
Better hope the str6+ gets through as the dude has 4 wounds and can heal.

 Che-Vito wrote:
A Colossus or two would wreck face on this list. As would a Deathwing force (Vect/Eldrad/Baron in the back? Deep Strike on that side of the unit, and fire away.)

Well, no list is without counters. 40k is a rock-scissors-paper-lizard-spock game now.



I'm telling you the beast pack is a strong pair of scissors. If you tell yourself "I got this" because you bring one colossus, you will be as shocked as the person who thinks one quad-gun will stop triple helldrakes.

Another question ... what were the wyches doing the whole game? Did they go unmolested? They are not shooting and the beasts are doing the attacking. Are they just thee for anti-tank, walker, dread, MC

this list is super hard to deal with. even without invisibility, the beasts generally have a 3+ to shooting and Baron and Vect can tank shots with their 2+ saves. Looks pretty ridiculous to me. The only worry I would have is Heldrakes and Manticores. But if you stay in area terrain vs Manticore and you have invisibility you would still have a great save. I would think that to mitigate heldrakes it would be best to keep the birds bubble wrapped by khymerae since you allocate from where the heldrake is shooting. That way you can take 4++, 2++ (characters) or kill beastmasters, rather than lose the razorwings, which seem to me to be the key to the unit.

 felixcat wrote:

Another question ... what were the wyches doing the whole game? Did they go unmolested? They are not shooting and the beasts are doing the attacking. Are they just thee for anti-tank, walker, dread, MC

In the game we played, they were giving me some KPs.

Normally I would expect them to be taking objectives, or getting into assault to take advantage of their 4++ to spare wounds on the beast pack.

I played against a different type of Deldar list and it is really difficult to go up against. He ran something like this against my bugs:

Baron
Eldrad
Farseer on Bike
10x Seer Council

Large block of Beastpack (Eldrad + Baron here)

2x10 Warriors w/Splinter Cannon
3x3 Jetbikes
ADL+ Quadguns


I just couldn't stop both units of deathstars, and my big bugs were taking perils about 2/3 of the time. There is a lot of synergy to Deldar combos and it is going to surprise a lot of people in competitive play. However, they are not perfect. Space wolf rune-priest spam will give them a rough game.

Yeh. I read something by Sean where he posited that wyches are generally over-estimated and consequently targeted early allowing less casualties to the beastmaster pack and Eldrad's warriors. They can also if need be man the quad I suppose.

What makes ordoSean so deadly with this list is that hes a really good player too.

If you give a highly effective list to a really skilled player, you have hell on wheels.

 felixcat wrote:
Yeh. I read something by Sean where he posited that wyches are generally over-estimated and consequently targeted early allowing less casualties to the beastmaster pack and Eldrad's warriors. They can also if need be man the quad I suppose.

yes, people tend to concentrate a lot of firepower on them. They do cost 12 points a model and die like guardmen but perhaps that is ok if your beast pack kills everything else.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:


A Colossus or two would wreck face on this list. As would a Deathwing force (Vect/Eldrad/Baron in the back? Deep Strike on that side of the unit, and fire away.)

Eldrad is with the warriors

Baron can be up with the beasts

DS and try and kill vect
Vect LOS 2+, whatever gets through goes on vects 2++.
Better hope the str6+ gets through as the dude has 4 wounds and can heal.

Why bother killing Vect with a Colossus, when you can wave the cover save for the Beasts goodbye? It seems like that is the lynchpin of this list; and anyone bringing a handful of ranged weapon that ignore cover will eat it alive.

I wasnt saying that a colossus isnt good, but deep striking terminators aren't going to do much.
Even so, 1 colossus isnt going to do much, as running straight up you are only going to get 1 shot with them getting in assault top of turn 2. 6 colossi would wreck them, but who brings 6?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Even so, 1 colossus isnt going to do much, as running straight up you are only going to get 1 shot with them getting in assault top of turn 2. 6 colossi would wreck them, but who brings 6?

2-3 is not an outlier in a list, and being in assault at the top of turn 2? That's assuming no intervening units, bubble wrap, death.

you can assault bubble wrap and then avoid being shot.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

To the OP. Is it a net list or a list you found on the net ? Though I guess it could become a net list if people have now seen it on the net and are using it. Though the propensity of people to speak negatively about it should prevent that... Dark Eldar are thankfully not as popular as gk nor likely to ever get to that band wagon status.

Aside from the cronos it bears a remarkable resemblence to my list. In fact take the cronos out and it was my 1750 list. This is it at 2000pts:


HQ
Baron Sathonyx - 105

Asdrubael Vect - 240

Troops
15 Wyches - haywire, hekatix PGL, venom blade - 205

14 Wyches - haywire, hekatix PGL, venom blade - 193

20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, Sybarite - 210

Elite
3 True Born - 2 splinter cannons - 56

3 True Born - 2 splinter cannons - 56

3 True Born - 2 splinter cannons - 56

Fast Attack
5 Beast masters - 5 kymerra, 8 razorwings - 240

1 Beast master – 2 razorwings – 42

1 Beast master – 2 razorwings - 42

Hq
Eldrad - 210

Troops
3 Guardian jetbikes - 66

3 Guardian jetbikes – 66

Elite
5 Fire Dragons – Exarch with crack shot and tank hunters - 112

Fortification
Aegis Defense line - quad gun - 100

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Even so, 1 colossus isnt going to do much, as running straight up you are only going to get 1 shot with them getting in assault top of turn 2. 6 colossi would wreck them, but who brings 6?

2-3 is not an outlier in a list, and being in assault at the top of turn 2? That's assuming no intervening units, bubble wrap, death.

you can assault bubble wrap and then avoid being shot.

What kind of bubble wrap lasts against a dedicated assault unit?
None, if you design it correctly.

It prevents the assault, dies, and let's those Colossi get in a solid 3 turns of firing.
Not to mention...the rest of the army that you're bringing. Bubble Wrap + Colossi =/= 1850 points.

I'm just not terribly impressed with the list, or it's ability to take all comers.

so you run with your assault unit of 20 models putting 3-4 crappy beastmasters near the chaff unit and the rest of the models in a conga line going the other way. The unit assaults, a few beastmasters get in, then the rest of the unit makes its consonlidation move at init5. Now you have 3-4 beastmasters in assault with the chaff. Woo 6-8 attacks at str3. PE helps but it is hardly going to cause that many wounds. Probably dont break the chaff. Next turn if you dont break or kill them you use hit and run to get away and charge something useful.

And if you are bringing more units, what is to stop the beasts from assaulting other units. In combat with anything is good enough for prevent shooting. With so many models and such a large charge range you can multicharge(o no my 5 attack razorwings dont get +1 attack)

Question for you Sean or anybody else - when you arttack with the beasts -
Do you disengage Vect then charge with the beasts then have Vect charge to get the maximum charge?

 felixcat wrote:

Question for you Sean or anybody else - when you arttack with the beasts -
Do you disengage Vect then charge with the beasts then have Vect charge to get the maximum charge?

its best to have him so far back that he doesnt go through terrain. That way you arent slowed by the terrain.

I like Exergy, he answers every question correctly.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

But Vect cannot charge 12" - only 6" - how do you compensate for that? I'm confused.

6th edition every charges 2d6

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Dont they have fleet, so they can re-roll the charge so have a better chance. Not sure as not familiar with this army.

Sorry - I meant move. So if for example I'm stringing out the beast squad on turn one I'm assuming that Vect is in front and disengages to move 6" and the Beasts move 12" leaving Vect in coherency with a trailing beast at the back? Then they run. Turn two becomes a bit trickier ... if the beasts move 12, Vect will fall out of coherency , no? So this limits your movement if you want to attack, no?

Now I'm assuming movement is as follows turn one:

Vect at the front - beasts strung out behind. Vect moves 6" and the beasts annd the baron 12". But Vect should be easily in coherency again so no loss of movement. In shooting phase everything runs.

Turn two Vect disengages moves ^". Again beast pack moves 12". Now Vect is in coherency at the back of the pack. Charge 2D6

OrdoSean wrote:
To the OP. Is it a net list or a list you found on the net ? Though I guess it could become a net list if people have now seen it on the net and are using it. Though the propensity of people to speak negatively about it should prevent that... Dark Eldar are thankfully not as popular as gk nor likely to ever get to that band wagon status.

Aside from the cronos it bears a remarkable resemblence to my list. In fact take the cronos out and it was my 1750 list. This is it at 2000pts:

Pay attention here kids, this guy knows what hes talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tuiman wrote:
Dont they have fleet, so they can re-roll the charge so have a better chance.

*Ding*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:
Vect at the front - beasts strung out behind. Vect moves 6" and the beasts annd the baron 12". But Vect should be easily in coherency again so no loss of movement. In shooting phase everything runs. 6

Vect falls behind a little bit during the movement phase (6" a turn, to be exact), but since your generally in assault by turn 2 its not much of an issue. What happens is you have a beast or two trailing in a conga-line to keep vect in coherency.

When the pack assaults, Vect catches up in a round or two then starts smashing faces.

People forget that another beastmasterr pack list came in 6th at Nova ...

Hq
Baron
Maugan ra

Troops
10 warriors with splinter cannon
10 warriors with splinter cannon
3 guardian jet bikes with shuriken cannon
3 guardian jet bikes with shuriken cannon

Elites
3 trueborn with haywire and two splinter cannons
3 trueborn with haywire and plasma and two splinter cannons
5 fire dragons with exarch with tank hunters and crack shot

Fast attack
6 reaver jet bikes with two heat lances
6 reaver jet bikes with two heat lances
5 beast masters with 8 razorwing flocks and 5 kymarae

Heavy support
2 war walkers with double scatter lasers
Talos with liquifier and splinter cannon
Talos with liquifier and splinter cannon
Cronos with spirit vortex

Fortification
Imperial bastion

Vect falls behind a little bit during the movement phase (6" a turn, to be exact), but since your generally in assault by turn 2 its not much of an issue.

So I basically got the charge right. Good to know. If I decide to play, lol.

Pay attention here kids, this guy knows what hes talking about.

The guy who posted mentioned it was Sean's list. I should have too - sorry guy. No one is trying to steal your credit, just understand how your twisted mind works - just kidding.

 felixcat wrote:

just understand how your twisted mind works - just kidding.

Dont worry thats pretty accurate... in early 5th I played full drop pod salamanders with 5 marines and 5 scouts in my 2000pt list, lots of dreadnoughts. Played a full reserve Nid list with 6 Lictors. And my absolute favorite list webway dark eldar with Drahzar.

Twisted might not be descriptive enough.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

This list looks like it would be pretty beast against foot lists, but thats just it, besides a quad-gun and the fire dragons firing it theres no other source of ranged AT so what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over, because you have nothing left that can hurt the landraiders, besides a squad of firedragons that would die way before they can get in range.

I really do like the uniqueness of the list, but in the end its just a scisors list that gets crushed by the first rock list it comes across.

@ previous poster:

His list will most likely have more troops and more mobility than the LR list. You can win that matchup solely by out-playing your opponent in the mission. Not to mention the fact that LR spam itself is a scissor that will meet many rocks. The key to 6th is not to build a list that can take ALL comers (I find this to be damn near impossible with the inclusion of allies allowing for a huge variety of lists), but rather to build a list that can do well vs. what you will commonly find played and one that has the versatility to win missions without necessarily dealing more damage. I think this list has the speed and flexibility to outplay others even if the deathstar isn't able to pull its weight. 6th is an infantry edition. LR's are all but dead with things like Daemons/Ravenwing/Necrons running around, so they aren't a major archetype to be feared. Infantry-heavy lists have an advantage in 6th due to the focus on objectives and the nerfs to mech. His list shreds infantry in both shooting in combat.

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

Also Vect has haywire grenades too, so in desperate times he can kill one, probably takes him 2 turns but he could always roll well and do it in one.

Also the fun thing about this edition is that in order to win eventually they have to get out of the boxes. So really all I have to do is survive until then.

And landraiders tend to come forward and bear assault units. Both of which I like. 4 crusaders are likely a problm, probably a big problem with that DA banner, but I have yet to see that list at events, because as mentioned it has its own list of hard counters.

I agree, land raider spam does have plenty of counters, my only point was that so does this. Of course land raider spam isnt that common yet, so you shouldnt really have to worry about it, I was just using the first example that came to mind, but the fact still stands that relying on all of your AT coming from assault isnt a sound tactic.

What happens when you face a more popular list like a necron flying circus, once they take out the quad-gun and firedragons you again have no way of damaging them, then all they have to do is fly around picking off your troops, which isnt hard to do, and then unload the last turn to grab the objectives.

Another army that counters this ironically is de. Most de lists will be able to out manuever you and just slowly ware you down over time, since you again have no way to pop the transports outside of cc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound so harsh, I do really like the list, Im just suggesting that you add some balance to it so you'll be more ready when you do finally face a counter.

Oh no worries. Ive heard much worse. I wasnt taking any of it negatively.

I agree that every list has counters, I just didnt think that landraiders were a very big one.

Now the necron flying circus you propose is a bigger deal. Especially if it has annihilation barges as well. My only hope there is that maybe they dont get all the flyers on at once and the quad gun then likely has a chance to kill 2. Then the question becomes how many turns does the game go and if I can get on objectives and start going to ground. But yes thats a very tough matchup.

And as far as mech de. Its basically like mech Ig except mech IG actually worries me and mech de doesnt. Open topped flyers with only 2 hull points that shoot poison, so I still get cover and feel no pain or in the case of birds dont get instant death; versus str 6 shooting across the board for IG tanks that have 3 hull points. Sure the de things are slightly faster but you still hit them on 3's. THe beast unit is so vast that its not hard to charge a bunch of planes, and it should only take 2 birds and a kymera to kill a de vehicle. Not to mention the baron and vect killing one together. Stuff like that.

Nice list OrdoSean.

At 2k I've been running the allied Harliestar, but this list looks stronger at everything except ranged anti armor.

I'm locked in a 1000 point campaign right now, but I will definitely try something like this in the future. Beasts are so damn effecient, slowing them down for fearless and preferred enemy is a smart move.

That's a lot of points in characters, but it looks like you found a way to make them worth their points.

Really awesome and refreshing list to see. Grats on the Templecon win.

OrdoSean wrote:
I like Exergy, he answers every question correctly.

when I am wrong I am usually so wrong, but I have been playing around with DE a lot in 6th as it is the only army I have painted.

I agree the threat from LR spam is pretty low (in terms of whether you'll see it or not), and that necron airforce is difficult but manageable.

However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

[quote=Dash2021 506313 5275566 c5b9f87a1f6a2e6c71e1e218e48c8b6c.jpg
However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

OrdoSean wrote:


Ok but how much does that kitted out unit of noise marines cost? 30 shots, 20 hits, 13.2 wounds. Its nice, but unless you have 2 of those units its going to be hard to get one on line of sight or good range. Remember eldrad has a redeploy power so even if I go first once I see your one uber counter unit I can shift the beasts around to get a better avenue to attack from. Not to mention that that large of a unit will basically need to deploy on foot, which means they are susceptible to my splinter fire so ill kill half the squad on turn 1, or they can deploy outside of my superior range and then have to move turn one thus cutting their shooting down to nothing. So its a give and take kind of scenario.

And like I said to be really effective I think you would need 2 units and then that price question really becomes a big one. Plus they are cult troops so they are fearless which I love because once I get into assault I dont need to worry about them running away to leave me getting shot by the much more dangerous helldrakes and what not.

FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

 Dash2021 wrote:
I agree the threat from LR spam is pretty low (in terms of whether you'll see it or not), and that necron airforce is difficult but manageable.

However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

the problem is that noise marines dont do enough wounds. Sonic blasters are really expensive and while they might put out what seems like a ton of wounds they will get soaked by razorwings who have 5 wounds each or by kymeras 5++. A ton of noise marines might be good in this instance but it really isnt a TAC list. The huge infiltrating block you might see will get assaulted turn 1. A large unit of cultists suffer from being large and assaultable. Again you try and only get a few models in combat first turn so the cultists dont run.

A unit of 10 Noise marines with 2 blast masters is a very good option. Maybe with the icon. But you arent going to field more than 2-3 sonic blasters or they will become too expensive and too immobile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dash2021 wrote:


FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

got it
and yes noise marines are good. Like I said I dont think you will be seeing too many sonic blasters. There are a lot of good units to take on this uber beast star, but most of them are not taken in sufficient numbers in TAC tourney lists to end it's day consistently.

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

 Dash2021 wrote:


FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

THe tourney was after the faq I believe, was just 2 weeks ago.

I didnt mean uber as a super unit... rather poor choice of word I believe on my part. In essence I was trying to say that if the rest of the list was generic marines then the unit of cover ignoring marines would be the toughest nut and therefore the pinnacle in the list of things to avoid or deal with early.

I agree that noise marines can be really solid choice. Higher initiative gives them the leg up in marine on marine matches. Their cover ignoring rounds are perhaps wasted there but give a credible fire source against xenos. A full army of them might get too pricy. But like I said I think 2 solid blocks, with one or 2 blast masters but no banner, gotta keep them kinda cheap could give great counter to anyone using invisibility especially, which can include your own kind, Invisible spawn are very tough too.

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

If you're going to ground behind an aegis, you first off aren't "laughing off" 17-18 wounds (you might even lose enough guys to test), but you also aren't threatening the LR at all.

OrdoSean wrote:


THe tourney was after the faq I believe, was just 2 weeks ago.

I didnt mean uber as a super unit... rather poor choice of word I believe on my part. In essence I was trying to say that if the rest of the list was generic marines then the unit of cover ignoring marines would be the toughest nut and therefore the pinnacle in the list of things to avoid or deal with early.

I agree that noise marines can be really solid choice. Higher initiative gives them the leg up in marine on marine matches. Their cover ignoring rounds are perhaps wasted there but give a credible fire source against xenos. A full army of them might get too pricy. But like I said I think 2 solid blocks, with one or 2 blast masters but no banner, gotta keep them kinda cheap could give great counter to anyone using invisibility especially, which can include your own kind, Invisible spawn are very tough too.

I'm slowly coming around to the idea that noise marines need to take either a blastmaster or sonics, but not both. Taking one or the other makes the price comparable to other cults, taking both adds on a ton of points, as you say. Icon only for squads of 10+.

I believe you are right, a squad of 10 wouldn't be enough, but a blob squad supported by cheap 5 mans w/blastmasters in the back field could do the trick. Of course, squeezing the points for more than 3 squads into a list already carrying the obligatory Oblits and hellturkey would be an issue.

Going to play around with it a bit and post a list later. I really like the idea of digging into a codex and coming up with unique combos, as apparently you do as well. Pulling out little dirty surprises is fun. inb4thatswhatshesaid

 Kingsley wrote:

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

If you're going to ground behind an aegis, you first off aren't "laughing off" 17-18 wounds (you might even lose enough guys to test), but you also aren't threatening the LR at all.

If you cannot threaten the LR without losing the vast majority of your models, you are probably better off GTG and outlasting the opponent. You cannot score from inside a LR and a LR rarely is able to score. And GTG behind an aegis confers a 2+ save, meaning you are in fact laughing off the majority of the firepower (not to mention possible FNP). You can facepalm all you want, but GTG behind an aegis is a great tactic and one that I would surely use vs the LR list. And there are other variables, are there multiple LRs? If you are shooting with 1 LR at 1 unit, then it can easily GTG whilst the other continues to threaten... so right back at ya.

Also on the go to ground issue. If eldrad has the mental fortitude power then the wyches can go to ground to shrug off the majority of the wounds then per the new FAQ eldrad casts mental fortitude and they get back up and charge the landraider which is close by if it was in double tap range.

OrdoSean wrote:
Also on the go to ground issue. If eldrad has the mental fortitude power then the wyches can go to ground to shrug off the majority of the wounds then per the new FAQ eldrad casts mental fortitude and they get back up and charge the landraider which is close by if it was in double tap range.

The DA LR fires salvo at 24" in this setup. But as said, that list has only two or three troops of plain tacs, so it's hardly an effective tourny list.

Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

That's a fifth edition rule. It no longer applies in sixth.

 Mandor wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

That's a fifth edition rule. It no longer applies in sixth.

yes, as has been brought up in this thread numerous times. You need to play 6th edition to understand how this list works.

I really dig it. My first thought when reading the new psychic power rules and 6th edition was of Eldrad/DE combos, and I think this list illustrates why that can be a good thing.

The lists that would seem to challenge this one the most that come to mind are AV 14 heavy as others have mentioned, heavy templates, like large numbers of Chimera with heavy flamers seems like would be a tough match-up. Purifiers, TH/SS terms, maybe a Pally star if it had the right mixture of toys.

Still, if played well I don't see anything that's a "hard counter" as they say. Just a few armies that could give you fits, particularly if Eldrad strikes out on the Tables.

yes, as has been brought up in this thread numerous times. You need to play 6th edition to understand how this list works.

Well when we tested we played the list a bit wrong at first ... so used to 5ed still even after so many 6ed games we make mistakes. We put in a chronos and now realize that the agl is better although FNP is nice. We split characters of the beast pack prematurely - we used them to take out cheap screens ... better to shoot your SCs or just consolidate into cover with the pack in terrain and then attack the next turn. We have to remember to conga properly and that the squad does not have to move at the speed of the slowest member as in 6ed. We made lots of mistakes to be honest which is why i have been asking noob like questions to elicit as much information as possible - our group has been playing since 2nd edition ... we've been around but that hampers us not helps at times. It's easy to repeat mistakes over and over if you do not get caught. This list is unforgiving. You don't have room for a whole lot of mistakes. Move to slow, don't take advantage of area terrain, get blocked by vehicles or screens ... lots of ways to screw up.

 felixcat wrote:
We put in a chronos and now realize that the agl is better although FNP is nice.

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

We have to remember to conga properly and that the squad does not have to move at the speed of the slowest member as in 6ed.

Surprise surprise.

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

What I meant to say is that the Chronos did not do anything that the AGL and reavers does not do. It's a bit costly for the what it does at 1850. We are thinking of switching out to reaver jetbikes. We will be playng on thursday to finalize our lists and testing this ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex - 100 [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - TL Haywire Blasters, Chainflails - 115 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

We ran into some small issues last game with rhinos and razors trying to block the beastmaster advance. Also I don't wat to get tied up with a large sacrificial screen in front of my prime targets for the pack. So Cronos/Talos make a bit of sense here. e will see ... we are up against GK/IG ... this a list that can bring the hurt. We are not using the Talos/Cronos for taking out vehicles in the enemy deployment zone. But they are really effective against armies that will be approaching you with transports trying to block the beasts. These armies usually want to close the gap as soon as they can. So the Talos/Cronos will be in range by turn 2, usually. Pop the transport, then you have a big threat standing in front of a vulnerable squad. This means the Talos is useful even without a WWP. It's ability to draw fire is also invaluable.What do you target ... MCs or beasts.





---

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I really dig it. My first thought when reading the new psychic power rules and 6th edition was of Eldrad/DE combos, and I think this list illustrates why that can be a good thing.

The lists that would seem to challenge this one the most that come to mind are AV 14 heavy as others have mentioned, heavy templates, like large numbers of Chimera with heavy flamers seems like would be a tough match-up. Purifiers, TH/SS terms, maybe a Pally star if it had the right mixture of toys.

Still, if played well I don't see anything that's a "hard counter" as they say. Just a few armies that could give you fits, particularly if Eldrad strikes out on the Tables.

I mean this list will get laughed off the table if you bring enough hellhounds.

AV14 isnt a problem as only LR have it on the back and haywire grenades still dont care. A redeemer could be alright, but it still is likely to get glanced to death easily.
TH/SS and Pally stars get parred down by splinter fire too easily. Then the mass of attacks of the beasts will finish them off. The pallystar ends up taking even more with the rends. Purifiers and the pally star have to remember that eldrad is around, so their flames, hh, and force weapons dont go off often and cause wounds a lot.

Paladins and other grey knight terminators are actually kind of a problem. The brotherhood banner lets them ignore runes of warding to activate their force weapons. Also rad grenades could make them not even need the force weapons to begin with. Both situations would need careful planning to deal with, the banner being the easier one of the two, if you can concentrate attacks on him to die before they get a chance to activate their weapons. In the grenades case it is much harder to kill the carrier because he is an independent character and so has a good LOS, and the grenades would have already gone into effect if you are in combat.

Purifiers themselves arent as big a deal. With only 3+ armor vect eats like 5 birds kill rest. And they wont get cleansing flame off that often with only ld 9 against runes of warding. Also eldrad deny's the witch on a 4+ against it.

If you are really worried about rhinos and razorbacks blocking you then you are probably going to need heat lances or war walkers or something. The one shot hay wire gun on the talos wont cut it. And if you are just going to charge the tanks might as well let the beasts do it.

The cronos is fine in theory too... but by the time its large blast is in range you probably already assaulted the thing and killed it with the beasts. If people are throwing up cheap screens of infantry just pop holes in them with splinter cannons. And add the screen to the list of things you are charging that turn. If you arent charging 3+ units then you should have a good reason... either there arent that many things to charge or you need to get all your attacks in against someone else's death star.

The Talos/Cronos can do more than just handle the rhinos and razors. They have multiple uses. I can drop the venom blades get the extra upgrades on the Cronos and Heat Lances on the Talos. We can certainly try it tomorrow. Will see after Thursday's game how it goes. But the Cronos was good last test ... certainly nice against IG blobs when fully upgraded and getting 3-4 tokens a turn. And MCs are a twist for the list that cannot be ignored.

Both situations would need careful planning to deal with, the banner being the easier one of the two, if you can concentrate attacks on him to die before they get a chance to activate their weapons.

And how do we do that? We really have no precision shots to bring to the party. So getting to him will be a task also. Or am I missing something here?

I will be careful but I believe the list has GKSS and IG blobs - I don't expect to see paladins but if so I'll try and pick off the banner. I'm not looking forward to rad grenades and my MCs will not help here much. FNP - if I get it will help a bit. I'll be careful and take your advice.

As you know we are deciding between this and the list I PMed you. Don't be surprised to see a mirror match up if we like this better.

I know this might sound heretical, but Tau might actually fare halfway decent against the beastly horde.

Considering that markerlights allow you to reduce cover saves, and that Hammerheads can drop S6 AP4 large blasts.... a couple Tetras aiding a pair of Hammerheads might be able to do a number on this mob. Especially if you can get the Hammerheads to position to avoid LOS to Vect / Baron Sathy, or at least make the Razorwings the closest model. Interaction between doubling wounds against swarms and instant death due to double toughness means you're removing 10 wounds worth of Razorwings at a time, at least; plus your Beastmasters will be falling just as quickly due to AP4. Majority toughness rule means the Khymarae may get their invul save, but they're getting wounded just as easily as the rest of the pack. You could quite quickly gut the heart of such a formation... then follow up with a cover ignoring Airbursting Fragmentation Projector (another S4 AP5 large blast) and you've likely done some serious damage to this pack. And none of these things are all that uncommon in Tau lists.

Follow up with massed S5 from FWs or whatever to force the two shadowfields to save, and it's basically mopping up after that.

Granted, you get all of 1 turn to execute that before you're totally hosed, but still.

 felixcat wrote:

The Talos/Cronos can do more than just handle the rhinos and razors. They have multiple uses. I can drop the venom blades get the extra upgrades on the Cronos and Heat Lances on the Talos. We can certainly try it tomorrow. Will see after Thursday's game how it goes. But the Cronos was good last test ... certainly nice against IG blobs when fully upgraded and getting 3-4 tokens a turn. And MCs are a twist for the list that cannot be ignored.

I will be careful but I believe the list has GKSS and IG blobs - I don't expect to see paladins but if so I'll try and pick off the banner. I'm not looking forward to rad grenades and my MCs will not help here much. FNP - if I get it will help a bit. I'll be careful and take your advice.

I know talos/cronos can do other things. I was just responding to what you seemed to want them chiefly for. When you get a talos into combat it is a beautiful thing. I used to run 2-3 for funsies. THe trouble is they are about a wound or 2 short of reliably getting into combat.

The cronos can at most generate 3 tokens a turn. One for the flamer, one for the blast, and one if you take the combat upgrade too.

Remember the feel no pain in the blob only helps the masters and characters.


As for tau. I agree markerlights are a major pain. But the issue with tau is that once you hit them they fold like paper weights. My last game with tau I was charging 4 units a turn until there werent enough things to charge.

And its a common misconception, but razorwing are not swarms so dont take double damage from templates or blasts.

But yeah between smart missiles and marker lights tau can put out some decent cover ignoring fire. I expect them to be very scary when they get a new codex.

The cronos can at most generate 3 tokens a turn. One for the flamer, one for the blast, and one if you take the combat upgrade too.

And one if I destroy the whole squad. Still don't know how it is easy to pick off the banner guy though.

Touche... though he has to keep that one himself.

What is interesting is that beastmaster packs could fare well against the harliestar and the harliestar can take on paladinstar but the beastmaster pack struggles. Now I confused myself.

Hey Sean,

This is your first opponent Ryan from Templecon. Glad to see you are having such great success with my favorite toy from the Dark Eldar codex.

I have to say that having played a very similar list to yours basically since NOVA and having generally good success that I have to recommend that you add a couple of Talos if you can find the points. I always have two in my list with Splinter Cannons and Liquifiers and they are such a great unit to fall back on for those games where the beasts get thinned out really early. They come in at 105 I believe and having that extra splinter fire is no joke. Cronos on the other hand have always dissapointed me. I ran one at NOVA and I played in both the GT and the team tournament and it totaled 2 kills during the tournament. The blast is too short range and he isn't fast enough, additionally not having a twin linked flamer hurts and the pain tokens are only really good on the wyches and even there they aren't super necessary.

I hope that we get a rematch at some point when I am playing something proper and not IG.... I won't ever make that mistake again. Maybe I'll see you at Battlegrounds soon!

Hey ryan,

I agree with you there is no comparison between talos and cronos. Talos are nasty... cronos kinda lame. I also like the liquifier gun set up, though confess to never having run the straight splinter cannon ones. Ive tried heat lances and haywire. When running three talos I liked the haywire for anti landraider.

I may have to give the splinter cannon set up some table time before making final decisions before adepticon. I love the models and its sad to see them sitting in the glass case. My only worry has been how easy it is to get them killed from time to time.

Last time I was running them with a grotesque star at BFS. And while they did threaten parts of the table I found it hard to get them really where I wanted. But perhaps with a splinter cannon set up I can use them more in a support roll instead of a tank hunting role. I really do wish they had at least one more wound, or could start with a pain token... I mean wracks and grotesques do why cant talos. The other place I kept running into trouble was in combat with other monstrous creatures and with demons specifically flamers... in both fights they would be found lacking.

That's the secret sauce. See not only does the splinter cannon make them support but who should finish off thhat 1 man strong unit you just devastated with splinter fire.....

Once you learn to pick off the stragglers with the splinter fire from the talos to get that lovely token you will learn why I never leave home without them. They also synergize with the beasts hit and run, I'm sure you are used to crippling squads with the beasts and having only a couple leftovers to mop up. They are perfect for this.

Of course they have bad match ups but they are 105 points and the best looking model in the army. If you don't like them the next beer is on me.

I posted a list similar* to this back in September, taking advantage of Vect and the Baron (and more importantly just abusing the change to how USRs work now), and I was laughed at.

Glad to see other people have looked outside the box regarding USRs and are seeing success.

Mine didn't care about Invisibility and instead included Baharroth to give a SECOND Beast pack Fearless/Hit&Run. It was part of an experiment to see what the most abusive list was that I could come up with for each Pheonix Lord as an ally. Good times, good times.

*By similar, I mean it had the same important combo on its big unit, not that everything was the same. I had planes and vehicles in that list (but dropped them by the time I started playing it more) and no Aegis, for instance.

 felixcat wrote:

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

What I meant to say is that the Chronos did not do anything that the AGL and reavers does not do. It's a bit costly for the what it does at 1850. We are thinking of switching out to reaver jetbikes. We will be playng on thursday to finalize our lists and testing this ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex - 100 [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - TL Haywire Blasters, Chainflails - 115 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

We ran into some small issues last game with rhinos and razors trying to block the beastmaster advance. Also I don't wat to get tied up with a large sacrificial screen in front of my prime targets for the pack. So Cronos/Talos make a bit of sense here. e will see ... we are up against GK/IG ... this a list that can bring the hurt. We are not using the Talos/Cronos for taking out vehicles in the enemy deployment zone. But they are really effective against armies that will be approaching you with transports trying to block the beasts. These armies usually want to close the gap as soon as they can. So the Talos/Cronos will be in range by turn 2, usually. Pop the transport, then you have a big threat standing in front of a vulnerable squad. This means the Talos is useful even without a WWP. It's ability to draw fire is also invaluable.What do you target ... MCs or beasts.

iam looking at a similar 1750 list:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, 180 [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, 168 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 dark lance, 230 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

I replaced the splinter cannon with a little more anti-tank/flyer blasters/lances. I believe you can also trow a heywire grenade against flyers, right? If you got those helldrakes coming out of reserves its possible to shot them first with quad gun and next turn you can shoot with 4 blasters, 2 dark lances and trow 5 heywire grenades. With sum prescience you will roll 6's at sum point.

will this work?

shogun wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

iam looking at a similar 1750 list:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 blasters - heywire- 72 [DE]
Troop: 15 Wyches - Haywire, 180 [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, 168 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 dark lance, 230 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

I replaced the splinter cannon with a little more anti-tank/flyer blasters/lances. I believe you can also trow a heywire grenade against flyers, right? If you got those helldrakes coming out of reserves its possible to shot them first with quad gun and next turn you can shoot with 4 blasters, 2 dark lances and trow 5 heywire grenades. With sum prescience you will roll 6's at sum point.

will this work?

not terribly well. the splinter cannons are really really useful. They allow you to move and shoot, they allow you to decimate Teq, they allow you to splatter infantry.

3 man trueborn with blasters have to get awfully close to use their blasters, also 3 haywire grenades dont scare people. A few bolters will wipe the squad.
20 warriors with 2 dark lances waste 18(36) splinter shots any time they shoot at a vehicle. They waste 2 dark lances any time they shoot at infantry. Really a terrible option.

The only place I'm considering putting a blaster is on my warriors in case I run into an MC, Dread, LR. Generally Haywires should be enough but tonight at 1850 we will use one blaster as it fits in our list to make up the last 5 points ( instead of one SC). Our list being tested has ended up being a hybrid of Ryan's and Sean's. We will be fielding two
Talos ( last night we had another look at the Cronos and dropped it) even though the Cronos is not bad against IG blobs. We don't want to tailor the list - we would rather test it as a final product to field against any other force. We now know what we are up against

HQ
Primaris Psyker [IG]
Inquisitor - 3 x Servo Skulls [GK]

Troops
Platoon Command - 3 x Flamer, Chimera [IG]
2x Infantry Squad [IG]
3x Mortar Squad [IG]
Veteran Squad - 3 x Melta [IG]
2x 10 GKSS - 2 Psycannons [GK]

Fast Attack
Vendetta [IG]

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Squadron: Leman Russ Battle Tank, Leman Russ Executioner [IG]
Manticore [IG]
Dreadnought - Dual Twin Autocannon, Psybolts

Fortifications
Agies Defence Line

Well this is nasty for our list - any advice? Game is at 8:00

Here is my battle report rematch against Eldar/Dark Eldar. I am currently working on it and it will be done a little later today:


1750 Rematch - Hive Fleet Pandora vs SonsofGrant's Double-Trouble Dual-Deathstar Deer Council Deldar


BTW, this is what he ran (will probably be the list that he will use for the Bay Area Open in March):


Farseer - Jetbike, Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding/Witnessing
Eldrad
Baron

10x Seer Council - Jetbikes, 5-6x Destructors, Enhance, Embolden

3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon
10x Kabalite Warriors - 1x Splinter Cannon

Beastmasters - 5x Beastmasters, 10x Khymerae, 6x Razorwings

Aegis Defense Line

Great report jy2!

I ran into someone running biovores and flyrants recently at an event and the biovores killed most of my 20 man warrior brick in one turns shooting. I had bunched them up fully expecting that death to happen but the reward was too great, he had placed one of his flyrants about 28" away in deployment from my lines so I used eldrads redeployent to get all 20 warriors and my true born units into shooting range on him, then bunched up to get all the splinter rifles in 24" range to kill him turn 1. So while it was a conscious trade on my part it definitely showed what the biovores can do.

Your report also illustrates why I think fearless is so important to the death star. Im a terrible die roller, if i need to pass a ld check i will fail. I take plenty of things that let me reroll dice(vulkan, prescience, preferred enemy) I need it all. The council has embolden to keep it semi safe from shooting morale, but I worry about him getting stuck into a combat with both his beasts and council and losing and getting his whole army swept off. Keeping baron with the council can help if he can get some quick kills to get 3 pain tokens, but if not he better keep some space between the units.

Tyarnids are scary to beast stars. Multiple enfeebles can get you killed pretty quickly.

Well my plan tonite isto take it to my opponent and not lose. Lol.

Mine is possibility one of the worst match ups for my deathstar list - a balanced IG/GK list has the tools to hide behind the Aegis and slowly rip me up. Eldrad's reposition helps... first turn is a near must and I have to grab invisibility for sure. I'm hoping splinter fire will really chew the platoon up and my beastpack gets to his GKss early before getting shot to bits. Just a few large blasts can do in my wyches and warriors ... I'll try and bait him to fire his manticore and russ at one squad. But yes, it illustrates the difficulties of playing a deathstar if your opponent happens to have every tool that hurts it ( well he could have a stormraven and not a psyledread but he would have had to drop the AGL.) So both of us attempting to hide anything important behind the AGL but I can reposition and with luck maybe get first blood and certainly can go after his warlord - primaris psyker. We both diosclosed lists prior so we did not tailor - just using the lists we have.

So I ended playing this list ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect [DE]
HQ: Eldrad [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons [DE]
Troop: 14 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade [DE]
Troop: 10 Warriors - 1 Splinter Cannon [DE]
Troop: 10 Warriors - 1 Splinter Cannon [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - Splinter Cannon, TL Liquifier [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - Splinter Cannon, TL Liquifier [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun

TOTAL POINTS: 1750

Now there are a few problems with the list although Sean and Ryan seem to overcome better than I did in this match up. First - twe have fragile troops. I could have joined the warriors into one squad but decided not to - they are not that hard to dakka down so at least have two targets. It also requires that I start at least one warrior squad in reserve to protect it. My plan was to try and bait ny opponent to shoot the other squad in an attempt for first blood with his medusa. I figured to spread out and see the result. But he did not bite. Not surprising even after I left hints, lol. The big problem was his tanks were all behind the Aegis ... that meant I needed to somehow get my wyches to skirt the edge of his troops and get behind his aegis unmolested by using my Taloi as bait or I needed to jump my beast pack from assault to assault to get to the tanks. I had the firepower to shred his bubblewrap but I had to be careful not lose both Taloi to vendetta fire as well. Mt beastpack made it into assault turn two with the remains of his IG blob as planned but the GKSS wwere now approachng range to hit my truborn and warriors. My AGL actually damaged his vendetta - it cam in tun three ( a break) allowing me to get the Taloi into cc as well. The GkSS decided to wipe out my Wyches - he realized their threat so the tanks would have to be dealt with by Taloi and beastpack. There was a massive battle with the GKSS - multi-asault with baeastpack and Taloi that the GKSS really had no chance to win with runes up. But honestly, I could not take out the damn tanks - I only managed to kill one leman russ - the nasty Executioner which was a big thorn. The manticore took out a guardian jetbike squad, and a warrior squad, the mortars kept back and managed to take out a truborn squad and damage but not destroy the other warrior squad. Once I multi-assaulted two mortars were gone. By turn four/five I had only one option ... keep my last jetbike squad safe nad not give up a VP, slay his primaris. The last Talos engaged his Psyfledread which had done little all game. Sucks to have anti vehicle and no real targets as most my troops had cover or were in assault. So the result - did not get to his primaris ... did not get first blood, lost my last jetbike squad on the last turn ... narrow loss.

So now we have to decide whether to play this or play a list with a bit more mobility ... venom/wyches and razorwings/ravagers. We will play our other list net week and decide and maybe see some dakka boys at a tournament near you.

what powers did you have? Also is there anyway... with paint or power point or pictures you could show how the forces were deployed and your opening turns?

I took invisibility and psychic shriek. It helped a bit ....

I do not have oictures but we both had AGL aqnd turn one everything set up be4hind them on both sides facing each other. He had nothing in reserve - I reserved bikes and a warrior squad.I used Eldrad to position what I had to shoot at th3e blob of IG which bubblewrapped the tanks and some of the GKSS. I had first turn so moved my beastpack and warrior squad with Big E forward - just close enough to cast invisibilit6y and hugging terrain.

If you had invisibility then you shouldnt have had much of a problem with that list.

Psychic shriek on the other hand is kinda bad. What were your other two powers? Basically my strategy with powers is to use my first 3 rolls on the telepathy table to try and get invisibility and then use the last roll on the divination tree. The most generally useful powers are obviously invisibility, but also mental fortitude, and terrify also from telepathy, and forewarning and misfortune from divination, along with prescience of course.

Obviously hard to tell without visible representation. But in essence your shooting elements should have been able to poke a few holes in the bubble wrap. Then the beasts could have charged through those holes on the tanks or strike squads behind. With invisibility and prescience 3 birds or so per tank should have gotten the job done. Just get one model into base with the strikes if you can or at least some models into the bubble wrap. From the list you posted for him it didnt even seem like the the blob had a commissar? So touching the marines would have been key to keep from getting shot. Obviously this is mere conjecture on my part as I cant see what happened or how exactly he was deployed.

usually my beasts are deployed horizontally to take up about a 15-24 inch zone in my deployment and early movement. That way you can charge a bunch of things. As ryan can attest when he was playing his friends Ig at templecon, turn 2 the beasts charged his 2 solo leman russ tanks along with a 40 man blob squad. I only put a few attacks into the blob, and killed one leman russ and immobilized the other. The key to beasts is multi charging. If you charge one thing you arent trying hard enough.

Th AGL was horizontal and stretched and the mortars to one side and the manticore to other. The Russes were central. He spreadmout as much as he could. I did manage to multi-assault mortals and take out one leman russ and damage the other but could not stretch to the manticore. The primaris was hidden behind the manticore - he moved him when I threatened. As I said it was a very close game. I could have risked the game going on an extra turn and waited with my bikes and probably would have won. He also got terrific results on his blasts which did not help me and made some great saves. I did have terrify and hallucination - never rolled misfortune - as well - forgot to mention it but did not get invisibility until my last role or definitely would have gone for prescience. Hallucination was interesting oin the guard blob, lol. I just had really bad charge rolls - even with fleet - my reserves arrived way too early and overall it made the game very close. Be aware also that this is just the third game playing with the beastpack on foot and the first using the Taloi. I have to really upgrade my game and be aware of the rules and innuendos. I wasn't knocking the list per say. And I'm sure I can do better with it. Might take a few more practice games though. And my oppnenet was well aware of what he would be facing trying to avoid too many multi-assaults. All in a fun game though and good experience. Ah yes - should mention that themission was purge the alien.

Might have a problem with Chaos Demons. The Tzeentch flamers ignore cover saves and wound on a 4+; it's wipe the beast on overwatch.

I have some questions about the list. No questions about the beast component but some questions about the rest.

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs. It seems to me that since eldar and DE have such fragile units that beasts should skew target priority.

Thinking:

Vect
Baron
Eldrad
5 Beastmasters 5 khymerae 8 flocks
16 warriors w S Cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
Guardian jet bike squad
3 war walkers w 2 scatter lasers
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon

1747

This gives a large blob, the beasts hammer, 4 venoms and 3 walkers. All fragile high priority targets that put out tons if aggressive fire and has some options to open up light vehicles faster. I assume I am missing something obvious.

-S

serathnal wrote:
I have some questions about the list. No questions about the beast component but some questions about the rest.

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs. It seems to me that since eldar and DE have such fragile units that beasts should skew target priority.

Thinking:

Vect
Baron
Eldrad
5 Beastmasters 5 khymerae 8 flocks
16 warriors w S Cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
3 true born w 2 dark lance + venom w extra cannon
Guardian jet bike squad
3 war walkers w 2 scatter lasers
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon
5 wyches w haywire + venom w extra cannon

1747

This gives a large blob, the beasts hammer, 4 venoms and 3 walkers. All fragile high priority targets that put out tons if aggressive fire and has some options to open up light vehicles faster. I assume I am missing something obvious.

-S

You need a second eldar troop choice and your also a little low on scoring units. The great thing about the defense line is the fact that you run towards it first turn and got a 2+ coversave with invisibility (see op list). Splintercannons are nice but you should let your beast unit do the anti infantry work.

The DE are the primary FOC (Wyches and Warriors are troops); Eldar as secondary has Eldrad and one troop choice (EJB). List is legal, but I'd worry about how fragile the troop choices are (I'm assuming the EJB squad is only 3 strong).

I understand the original poster dislikes the DE vehicles so went with large infantry mobs.

Actually that is not true. I am testing the infantry version but we also have a version with flyers that our group is testing. It seems though thst the infantry version has some pluses. Making a good prtion of your opponent's army superfluous (anti-air and anti-vehicle) is not too shabby. Going infantry allows us to use larger meatier squads or more squads (troops are important in 6ed). The negative is that you have to get everything properly in position - I made a key error with a squad bikes and a squad of wyches last game. I should have kept the wyches back in cover terrain and just relied on the beastpack to take out the tanks instead of needlessly exposing them ... granted they work as bait. The problem was my opponent had a lot of templates coming my way and our troops are very fragile. It might seem easy to get by the bubblewrap to the tanks - Sean makes it look so - but in this game because of the spacing and the fact that there were five units spread out - maticore, russes, three mortars - it was more difficult to achieve. Plus a rifledread stood in the way. But I'm not sure venoms are the answer. Reavers would have been nice. And when playing GK if there is reinforced Aegis about you do not want to target a GK unit with your psychic powers. Something I didn't mention in the previous thread.

OrdoSean wrote:
Great report jy2!

I ran into someone running biovores and flyrants recently at an event and the biovores killed most of my 20 man warrior brick in one turns shooting. I had bunched them up fully expecting that death to happen but the reward was too great, he had placed one of his flyrants about 28" away in deployment from my lines so I used eldrads redeployent to get all 20 warriors and my true born units into shooting range on him, then bunched up to get all the splinter rifles in 24" range to kill him turn 1. So while it was a conscious trade on my part it definitely showed what the biovores can do.

Your report also illustrates why I think fearless is so important to the death star. Im a terrible die roller, if i need to pass a ld check i will fail. I take plenty of things that let me reroll dice(vulkan, prescience, preferred enemy) I need it all. The council has embolden to keep it semi safe from shooting morale, but I worry about him getting stuck into a combat with both his beasts and council and losing and getting his whole army swept off. Keeping baron with the council can help if he can get some quick kills to get 3 pain tokens, but if not he better keep some space between the units.

Tyarnids are scary to beast stars. Multiple enfeebles can get you killed pretty quickly.

Thanks!

Biovores are great not only for their offense, but because they affect the way your opponent plays. In both of my games against deldar, my opponent put his troops in reserves. If I didn't have them (the biovores), he said he would have deployed them for the firepower. I've had many games in which my biovores forced my opponents to change their deployments or to reserve their units. Hey...less units to try to ground my flyrants! But in this game, it wasn't so bad for my opponent. At least he got rid of the Doom (thus, potentially eliminating a Linebreaker threat as well) with them and being so close to the table edge, there was a chance they may survive if the blasts scatter off the table.

He had Eldrad with the beastpack so there was only a 1 in 6 chance for him to fail. But what can you do when you are playing a psychic heavy eldar army? Personally, I prefer Eldrad's "psychativity" to Baharoth's fearlessness and Hit&Run but that's just me. And with Fortune, that 10-man seer council is unbelievable hard to break, especially with Embolden there.

Multiple Enfeebles hurt, but not as much to eldar. With a Lvl 2 psyker in 1 unit and a Lvl 3 psyker in another and with Runes, it's actually pretty tough to get off.

Doesn't Eldrad lack Fleet? That's got to hurt.

somerandomdude wrote:
Doesn't Eldrad lack Fleet? That's got to hurt.

Against tyranids? Dunno. Didn't really matter all that much as I had reduced his beastpack to not very much in both games.

But in our first game, he had the Baron attached to the beast squad as well. Fleet wasn't an issue. Hit&Run gives him 3d6" of movement and then he has his normal beast movement after that. Getting the charge wasn't an issue at all.

Overall, in general, not having fleet on the beast unit isn't so bad. With a move, run and then move again (Turn 2), they should be within easy striking distance of almost any opponent (especially when you have the seer council to otherwise draw their attention).

If nothing else it has got us thinking of other combinations of Dark Eldar allies lists. What units or good, what units are simply not working, what weaknesses we need to shore up, etc. Reading reports from Sean, Ryan and JY2 has given me enough insight now to have answered the question in the original post ... I get how these lists work. Now I'm curious to see what other lists I can make with my old DE ( not going to go the harliestar route though). Hopefully We will end up sending a few of these lists down to Indie if we can get the money sorted.