Can Necron's tesla destructor arc to fliers and/or flying monstrous creatures that are within 6" of the target?

Is it snap fired?

Assuming you mean Zooming fliers and Swooping FMCs, it's quite difficult.

My GW store said it does, but the FAQ states:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas."

The Arc isn't a weapon in itself, but it could be classed as an attack, and since it doesn't explicity roll to hit (you roll to see if the unit is affected by the rule) it could be argued that it cannot target them.

Then again, what is an 'attack'? What if you use Boon of Mutation on a Flying Daemon Prince, and he suffers the S4 hit? Is it classed as an attack that doesn't roll to hit, and is therefore ignored? Or is it classed as a special rule that inflicts hits, laying precedent for Arc to be the same?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Is it snap fired?

'Arc' is a special rule of the Tesla Destructor. If a unit that is hit at least once by the Tesla Destructor and is not wiped out by it, then roll a D6 for every unit within 6", friendly, enemy, engaged and unengaged. On a 6, the unit rolled for suffers D6 S5 AP- hits.

It's not 'fired' per se, but it inflicts hits, and that's where the waters get muddy.

I think a better question is can it be snap fired? Yes. They have also said that weapons that hit automatically can hit flyers so it would appear that tesla arc does hit fliers if they are within the 6" range of the first unit. In the end will truly take a FAQ to be certain.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Assuming you mean Zooming fliers and Swooping FMCs, it's quite difficult.

My GW store said it does, but the FAQ states:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas."

The Arc isn't a weapon in itself, but it could be classed as an attack, and since it doesn't explicity roll to hit (you roll to see if the unit is affected by the rule) it could be argued that it cannot target them.

Then again, what is an 'attack'? What if you use Boon of Mutation on a Flying Daemon Prince, and he suffers the S4 hit? Is it classed as an attack that doesn't roll to hit, and is therefore ignored? Or is it classed as a special rule that inflicts hits, laying precedent for Arc to be the same?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Is it snap fired?

'Arc' is a special rule of the Tesla Destructor. If a unit that is hit at least once by the Tesla Destructor and is not wiped out by it, then roll a D6 for every unit within 6", friendly, enemy, engaged and unengaged. On a 6, the unit rolled for suffers D6 S5 AP- hits.

It's not 'fired' per se, but it inflicts hits, and that's where the waters get muddy.

Well per the tesla rules though it never rolls to hit against the units with 6". It just states a roll of 6 and they are affected by the arc. So if fliers/FMC can only be hit with snap fire I would say it does not hit them.

Last night I played a game where we let it hit a FMC and it grounded him which per the rules he was still allowed charge even after flying that movement phase. Made for a ridiculous threat range.

Wouldn't the Codex over BRB thing allow the Tesla Arc to hit fliers? Just wondering.

I think I have to come down on the side of "no" for Tesla arcing, because of this sentence in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The Tesla arc effect from the Tesla Destructor does cause hits, and it's not a Snap Shot, so I believe that sentence above prevents it from hitting.

So if you cast Boon of Mutation on a Swooping Daemon Prince it'll ignore the S4 hit it takes?

Well, it's a Blessing, not a Shooting attack, and Hard to Hit really seems to only talk about Shooting attacks. That said, the FAQ expands what Hard to Hit protects against, and it does look to me like the same sentence would also negate the hit from Boon. Yay, something to make that power a little less crappy!

At least RAW. Given that GW often FAQs to RAI, I suspect they (if there were to make a ruling) would rule the hit to still apply, since it's coming from a Blessing.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think I have to come down on the side of "no" for Tesla arcing, because of this sentence in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The Tesla arc effect from the Tesla Destructor does cause hits, and it's not a Snap Shot, so I believe that sentence above prevents it from hitting.

You are assuming the arc is is a shot it is not, it is an effect. The hard to hit rule does not apply to it. Its more akin to casting a malediction on the flyer. It hits or it doesn't based on its own rules, hard to hit does not effect it.

Interesting though. The FAQ covers attacks. What about other things that are not classified as attacks or psychic powers? Maledictions and blessing blessing at the top of the list. Then things like Doom's spirit leech? In theory I could enfeeble a hive tyrant and then double him out with a grounding test. Same with a daemon prince from C:CSM.

Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks nothing more. Flyers do not have any special protection from effects, blessings, maledictions, etc.

there is also this to consider:

"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

You may as well ask does 'melta' effect a flier, or the initial tesla effect itself. The Arc is a weapon property, it's not a good idea to divorce it from the original shot and then try and figure out what i does.

wait how did it get that close to get arced into anyway? you'd have to measure straight up because the base of the flier means absolutely nothing except 1inch from an enemy model or disembarking rules (unless its in hover mode).

Thats why i never get cover saves from my KFF on my dakkajets because unless theyre basically RIGHT over him it wont touch the plane. Damn tall bases lol.

Also, where does it say things that autohit can hit fliers? The FAQ regarding the autohit spells also says in it "or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them"
If that bit wasnt in there, my Weirdboyz would LOVE to Zzap fliers because its not classified as any psychic spell technically. Str10 Ap1 would plaster anything in the air lol

I agree with Mannihim plus it does not automatically hit. It's hard to say whether its a shooting attack or not.

40k-noob wrote:
there is also this to consider:

"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

ooops i posted in the wrong thread. this was for the weirdboy thread.

tgf wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think I have to come down on the side of "no" for Tesla arcing, because of this sentence in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The Tesla arc effect from the Tesla Destructor does cause hits, and it's not a Snap Shot, so I believe that sentence above prevents it from hitting.

You are assuming the arc is is a shot it is not, it is an effect. The hard to hit rule does not apply to it. Its more akin to casting a malediction on the flyer. It hits or it doesn't based on its own rules, hard to hit does not effect it.

Did you read my next post, directly above yours? I'm not assuming any such thing. I agree that the Hard to Hit rule as originally presented in the rulebook applied only to shooting attacks; but the FAQ has broadened its protection a bit. I don't think the Tesla arc is at all comparable to a Malediction. A Malediction doesn't cause hits. Tesla Arc does cause hits, but that sentence in the FAQ specifically prevents hits.

40k-noob wrote:
there is also this to consider:

"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

As I understand it, that is just saying that the two automatic hits you get from rolling a '6' with a "tesla" weapon do hit the flier. It doesn't really cover the tesla arc rule.

Look at it this way, would you think you could arc from Flyer to Flyer? If you say yes, there is no reason it cant link to a Flyer from the ground.

Also, I think noob's point (wrong thread or not) is still valid. Once you activate the effect by rolling that 6, the hits are from then on autiomatic, so are covered by that point.

 IHateNids wrote:
Look at it this way, would you think you could arc from Flyer to Flyer? If you say yes, there is no reason it cant link to a Flyer from the ground.

No.

Also, I think noob's point (wrong thread or not) is still valid. Once you activate the effect by rolling that 6, the hits are from then on autiomatic, so are covered by that point.

They are not automatic, and the shot isn't a snap shot anyway.
This is pretty comparable to Imotekh's lightning.

Yup. It's pretty similar to Imo's lightning. It's an effect which is not itself a shooting attack, but which causes "hits" of a specified Strength and AP. The FAQ ruling on zooming flyers & swooping FMCs says that nothing can hit them that isn't Snap Shooting. So both Tesla Destructor arcs and Imo's lightning are ruled out.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The FAQ ruling on zooming flyers & swooping FMCs says that nothing can hit them that isn't Snap Shooting. So both Tesla Destructor arcs and Imo's lightning are ruled out.

On that trail of thought you couldnt use a Skyfire weapon...

However skyfire weapons have a specific rule set that allow them to shoot fliers with their normal BS if you choose to skyfire and can then only snap fire at ground targets so that is not a valid trail of thought.

Userarm wrote:
However skyfire weapons have a specific rule set that allow them to shoot fliers with their normal BS if you choose to skyfire and can then only snap fire at ground targets so that is not a valid trail of thought.

Unless the same weapon with Skyfire also has Interceptor. Then it could target any unit at normal BS of the firer.

Userarm wrote:
However skyfire weapons have a specific rule set that allow them to shoot fliers with their normal BS if you choose to skyfire and can then only snap fire at ground targets so that is not a valid trail of thought.

That was kinda my point...

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yup. It's pretty similar to Imo's lightning. It's an effect which is not itself a shooting attack, but which causes "hits" of a specified Strength and AP. The FAQ ruling on zooming flyers & swooping FMCs says that nothing can hit them that isn't Snap Shooting. So both Tesla Destructor arcs and Imo's lightning are ruled out.

I thought imo and najal could hit flyers? We have always allowed lightning and tornado to hit flyers, they are not shooting attacks and are not bound by hard to hit.

Judging by the recent Tau faq making seeker missiles hit fliers on a 6 despite saying snapshots from them hit on a 2+ means they are saying the hard to hit part of the fliers rule is sacrosanct and will always (or at least tend to) be ruled in favour of the flier.

In my area, we always allowed it to happen since it needs a six to hit anything. As I can comfortably say the only flyer hurt by the arc is always the night scythe shooting it.

A few thoughts...

1. There are only going to be a few instances when the Arc will even reach the flyer.

2. It's a characteristic of the weapon - not an attack on it's own. It's just a chance for another effect to go off on the roll of a 6.

So, granted it isn't "snap fired" - but it still only hits on a 6 which is the same chance you would have otherwise if it had been snap fired. I don't see why Imho's lightening wouldn't hit it either. This is a case where I'd say the rules in the codex would supersede the BRB on a logical and written level.

The whole case in point being that the Arc/Imho's lightening are NOT shooting attacks but rather special rules/effects in play via two special mechanics.

There are also the ether crystals to consider if a flyer does deep strike that close to one. I personally don't see the ether crystals or the "Arc" of the T. Destructor operating differently in that they aren't specifically shooting attacks themselves and they just cause X amount of hits at a STR and AP denoted by the rule. "Arc" is only specific to the tesla destructor because it's the only weapon that has it, but it's still a special rule and not a weapon itself (and why I feel that FAQ entry does not apply to Arc or Lord of the Storm). "Arc" could, theoretically, be on any (future) weapon that GW or FW decided it to be on.

tgf wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yup. It's pretty similar to Imo's lightning. It's an effect which is not itself a shooting attack, but which causes "hits" of a specified Strength and AP. The FAQ ruling on zooming flyers & swooping FMCs says that nothing can hit them that isn't Snap Shooting. So both Tesla Destructor arcs and Imo's lightning are ruled out.

I thought imo and njal could hit flyers? We have always allowed lightning and tornado to hit flyers, they are not shooting attacks and are not bound by hard to hit.

I thought so too, until a few people at tournaments disagreed with me, and we went over the FAQ carefully. The wording of the FAQ is broad, and specifically prevents hits; not just hits from shooting attacks.

 Budikah wrote:
1. There are only going to be a few instances when the Arc will even reach the flyer.

I run into it pretty regularly since I started using allied Night Scythes. Because the TL Tesla Destructor has a 24" range, in the second turn of firing it at a given unit, if you Zoomed your minimum 18", you're very often within 6" of the targeted unit (at least some of its models). Even measuring model to hull.

 Budikah wrote:
12. It's a characteristic of the weapon - not an attack on it's own. It's just a chance for another effect to go off on the roll of a 6.

So, granted it isn't "snap fired" - but it still only hits on a 6 which is the same chance you would have otherwise if it had been snap fired. I don't see why Imho's lightening wouldn't hit it either. This is a case where I'd say the rules in the codex would supersede the BRB on a logical and written level.

The whole case in point being that the Arc/Imho's lightening are NOT shooting attacks but rather special rules/effects in play via two special mechanics.

I hear you, and that makes logical sense to me too. But it would also make logical sense for darn Seeker Missiles to get to hit on a 2+ after a Marker Light gets its 6 to hit. And GW didn't allow that either. The FAQ ruling's wording is quite broad and it presently extends to anything which inflicts "hits", whether it's a shooting attack or not. GW clearly doesn't want anything hitting Flyers without Snap Firing or having Skyfire.

(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

Q: Are weapons/shots which can be/are snap fired allowed to hit fliers automatically?
A: Yes
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Is Arc a property of the weapon, as opposed to a distinct special ability, psyker power, or what have you? (this thread has wandered considerably)
A: Yes

Why on earth are we still trying to figure out if it can hit fliers or not given the above?

 Neorealist wrote:
(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

Q: Are weapons/shots which can be/are snap fired allowed to hit fliers automatically?
A: Yes
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Is Arc a property of the weapon, as opposed to a distinct special ability, psyker power, or what have you? (this thread has wandered considerably)
A: Yes

Why on earth are we still trying to figure out if it can hit fliers or not given the above?

You quoted the wrong question for your second point.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

I underlined the important bits.

If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, [i]any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.[/b] This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

Since this thread and the Weidboy one are basically discussing the exact same thing, do we really need two of them?

I'm leaving them for now, as they hinge on different parts of the FAQ ruling.

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, [i]any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.[/b] This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

 Neorealist wrote:
(mostly rhetorical) Questions:

Q: Can the tesla Destructor be snap fired, and if so does it retain the Arc property?
A: Yes.
"Q: When making Snap Shots, do weapons with a special rule or effect that only applies on To Hit rolls of a 6 retain these abilities? For example Necron Tesla weapons? (p13)
A: Yes."

This is referring to getting 2 extra dice when shooting tesla weapons and rolling a 6. Has no bearing on whether the arc can hit the flyers or not.

Tomb King wrote:This is referring to getting 2 extra dice when shooting tesla weapons and rolling a 6. Has no bearing on whether the arc can hit the flyers or not.

I addressed that in the second quote, right below the one you apparently stopped reading at...

Happyjew wrote:[i]I underlined the important bits.

Are you trying to imply the Tesla Destructor doesn't roll to hit, or that the Arc is a seperate effect from the weapon itself? Both of which are incorrect, but i'd like to verify which so i can debate appropriately.

Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Happyjew wrote:Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Ah good. To that i say; The Tesla Destructor 'does' roll to hit and furthermore can be fired as a snapshot just fine.

 Neorealist wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Actually I'm stating that attacks that do not roll to hit cannot target flyers, contrary to your claim that things that hit automatically can hit a Flyer (without Skyfire of course).

Ah good. To that i say; The Tesla Destructor 'does' roll to hit and furthermore can be fired as a snapshot just fine.

Agreed. I think the disagreement is on whether or not the "arc" is an attack or not. You do not see it as an attack and thus is able to effect Flyers just fine (of course then we get back into the whole if it is not an attack you cannot add strength to armour pen). The other side sees it as an attack (especially since it has a profile of sorts) and as such since the Arc is similar to Imotekh's Lightning cannot affect Flyers. When will GW clarify these things?

It's a property of the weapon and therefore as much of an 'attack' as the weapons' initial shots are; not to mention the extra 'Tesla' hits. (or USRs like 'Melta', 'Armorbane', and the like. )

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
It's a property of the weapon and therefore as much of an 'attack' as the weapons' initial shots are; not to mention the extra 'Tesla' hits. (or USRs like 'Melta', 'Armorbane', and the like. )

The Destructor can hit just fine. The extra two "bonus" hits also get to hit, but ONLY because GW specifically FAQ'd that they do. OTOH the "bounce" hits, which result from a Tesla Destructor hitting a unit within 6" of you, do not roll to hit, and they also CAUSE hits, which puts them in the category of things which are not allowed to hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs.

Mannahnin wrote: The Destructor can hit just fine. The extra two "bonus" hits also get to hit, but ONLY because GW specifically FAQ'd that they do. OTOH the "bounce" hits, which result from a Tesla Destructor hitting a unit within 6" of you, do not roll to hit, and they also CAUSE hits, which puts them in the category of things which are not allowed to hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping FMCs.

This i'd disagree with. The extra hits still hit because they were generated by an attack which is not blocked by the 'Hard-to-Hit' rules, not because there is something specific to tesla that indicates they should hit. The FAQ just references the Tesla ability to indicate a specific example of what they were talking about, not that it is a specific exception to the rule.

four examples for you:
A) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do all 4 hit? how come? (there are 3 additional hits beyond the first one after all)
B) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Melta' USR at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do all 4 hit? How come? Does the 'Melta' effect apply to these hits? Why or Why not?
C) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Tesla' USR at a flier and happen to roll all 6's. Do I get 4 hits or 12? How come? Does the 'Tesla' effect apply to these hits? Why or Why not?
D) I snap-shoot an Heavy (4) weapon with the 'Tesla' and 'Arc' USRs at a nearby flier and happen to roll all 6s for the bounce effect. Do i get the 6 hits? Why or why not? Does the 'Arc' effect apply?

Way i see it, folk are trying to treat the Arc like it's an entirely seperate and distinct special ability, when it is obviously a property of the weapon. It's a unique and rules-lengthly property to be sure, but nontheless one found on the weapon itself.

A) Yes, because the weapon Snap-Shot, and thus it was allowed to hit that target.
B) Yes.
C. Yes.
D) Your question seems to misrepresent or indicate that you[re confusing the "bonus hits on a 6" ability of all Tesla weapons with the Arc "bounce" effect of a Tesla Destructor. The Arc doesn't trigger on "to hit" roll of 6 to hit. It triggers if there is a unit within 6" of the unit you hit, and you roll a separate roll of 6 for that effect to cause d6 S5 hits on that other unit, which is not the one you targeted and Snap Shot at. Since the Arc causes hits, but does not roll to hit, it cannot affect that second unit within 6" if that unit is a Zooming Flyer or a Swooping FMC.

Mannahnin wrote:D) Your question seems to misrepresent or indicate that you[re confusing the "bonus hits on a 6" ability of all Tesla weapons with the Arc "bounce" effect of a Tesla Destructor. The Arc doesn't trigger on "to hit" roll of 6 to hit. It triggers if there is a unit within 6" of the unit you hit, and you roll a separate roll of 6 for that effect to cause d6 S5 hits on that other unit, which is not the one you targeted and Snap Shot at. Since the Arc causes hits, but does not roll to hit, it cannot affect that second unit within 6" if that unit is a Zooming Flyer or a Swooping FMC.

I'm not confusing anything (least of all those two rules), i just wanted to be clear on what was generating the initial and subsequent hits in case there was any doubt. For reference the 'Arc' triggers on a single successful hit, not just 6's. In this case though you'd need a 6 to hit anyway, so it's functionally immaterial.

The part of your comment that i've bolded is the incorrect part: The Arc effect doesn't 'cause' anything in and of itself. The weapon does, just as a Melta weapon would roll an additional dice for penetration under certain conditions, or a Poisoned (4) weapon would wound on a 4+, so too would an Arc weapon bounce around and potentially hit other models in addition to it's primary target.

The Arc USR is not a seperate weapon (or other shooting-like ability) from the one shooting it, they are one and the same thing.

Okay, good.

Now, even if I grant that line of reasoning, the second unit is not the one you Snap Shot at, and you did not roll to hit against it. T he FMC/ZF ruling still disallows those Arc hits, because you did not Snap Shoot at that second unit.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Okay, good.

Now, even if I grant that line of reasoning, the second unit is not the one you Snap Shot at, and you did not roll to hit against it. T he FMC/ZF ruling still disallows those Arc hits, because you did not Snap Shoot at that second unit.

Ah, there is that. While you may not have rolled to hit against that specific model, you 'have' rolled to hit with the weapon generating the effect. That is one of the prerequisites for allowing one to hit a flier no?

FAQ wrote:Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The Snap Shots can hit fine. The Arc "bounce" hits are not Snap Shots.

Again, you appear to be indicating one should seperate the 'Arc' USRs effect from the weapons other effects and treat it differently. This is in error (or at least, has no current rules-support)

The model made snapshots with the weapon and it was legal for it to do so within the context of the scenario I posited. Therefore the hits generated by that weapon are legal to be resolved against fliers as per the 'hard to hit' rule; wether or not they exist by virtue of the initial shot(s), the Tesla USR, the Arc USR, or any other effect which increases the amount of hits generated by that weapon.

I believe quite firmly that you are incorrect.

The Snap Shots are permitted to hit the unit that the Tesla Destructor targeted. The Arc hits are NOT snap shots, and hit a different unit by a different means that Snap Shooting. The FAQ is quite clear and categoric that the only means of hitting a ZF/SFMC (aside from Skyfire) is via Snap Shooting. Those Arc hits are not Snap Shots, and they're trying to bounce onto a unit which is not being Snap Shot at.

So far as i've been able to ascertain, the only definition of a 'snap shot' is that the model fires shots with a ballistic skill of one.

In the Arcing scenario, is the model firing the Tesla Destuctor shots with a ballistic skill of 1? If so, what prevents you from resolving 'all' of it's effects (rather than just some of them) vs whatever targets it happens to hit?

Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

 Neorealist wrote:
So far as i've been able to ascertain, the only definition of a 'snap shot' is that the model fires shots with a ballistic skill of one.

In the Arcing scenario, is the model firing the Tesla Destuctor shots with a ballistic skill of 1? If so, what prevents you from resolving 'all' of it's effects (rather than just some of them) vs whatever targets it happens to hit?

So your basing your argument that if the original shots were fired as snap snots then the arc would still work?

Mannahnin wrote: Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

Alrighty then. 2 questions this time:

1) What specific definition of 'shots' are you using for the quoted statement?
2) I do not believe you've addressed my contention that the Arc USR is explicitly an effect of the Tesla Destructor weapon and 'its' shots; not a seperate attack.

Tom King wrote:So your basing your argument that if the original shots were fired as snap snots then the arc would still work?

part of it, yes.

Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

Does it roll to hit? Does it have an area of effect?

it is hit on a 6, the same as this Arc...

 IHateNids wrote:
it is hit on a 6, the same as this Arc...

Hitting on a 6 does not make it a snap shot.

All Snap Shots hit on a 6. All hits on a 6 are not Snap Shots.

i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

copper.talos wrote:
Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Note the use of the word initial in that statement. It doesn't say once all of the tesla shots have been resolved, just the first one. There are 3 others, not to mention ancillary effects like tesla and arc to resolve too.

 Neorealist wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Note the use of the word initial in that statement. It doesn't say once all of the tesla shots have been resolved, just the first one. There are 3 others, not to mention ancillary effects like tesla and arc to resolve too.

No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

they do roll to hit, that hit is on a 6.

And I know that isnt a snapshot...

rigeld2 wrote:No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

The arcing is as much an effect of those shots and that weapon as any other weapon-based USR would be.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.

Your first assertion is incorrect, all of those types of powers are "Witchfire" powers and are thus considered assault weapons (unless noted otherwise).

Technically, the rule forbids targeting them and that would include beneficial maelstrom's and other abilities that require targeting. The Arc rule does not "Target".

 IHateNids wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

they do roll to hit, that hit is on a 6.

They generate hits on a 6. They do not roll to hit using BS1 (which is what a snapshot is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

The arcing is as much an effect of those shots and that weapon as any other weapon-based USR would be.

I don't disagree.

But it generates hits that do not roll to hit. The FAQ specifically forbids those things from hitting.

The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

 Neorealist wrote:
The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

So Tesla weapons always Arc - as in they will always generate hits?

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

I haven't asserted that they are.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

Do Arcs roll to hit?

 Happyjew wrote:

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

Does it roll to hit? Does it have an area of effect?

Before you can ask that question you first have to answer is it a shooting attack? Nope. Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

If you believe this than a flyer can not be targeted by blessings or maledictions, nor can it gain any benifit from something like an aoe friendly coversave or banner.

rigeld2 wrote:Do Arcs roll to hit?

Yup, Tesla Destructor shots 'always' roll to hit. (hint: the Arc is not an independant effect)

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Do Arcs roll to hit?

Yup, Tesla Destructor shots 'always' roll to hit. (hint: the Arc is not an independant effect)

So they aren't attacks?
The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

rigeld2 wrote:The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

That is some wonderfully specious reasoning. Would you like to indicate why you believe the Tesla Destructor shots are/can be resolved before the USRs you apply to them are?

What you are saying is akin to trying to resolve a Multi-melta guns' shot before applying the 'Melta' effect to it.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

That is some wonderfully specious reasoning. Would you like to indicate why you believe the Tesla Destructor shots are/can be resolved before the USRs you apply to them are?

"Once the tesla destructor's initial shot has been resolved, roll a D6 ..."
Page 82 C: Necron

So by using the rules I've shown that the initial shot (IE the Assault 4 Tesla) must be resolved before resolving the Arc.

What you are saying is akin to trying to resolve a Multi-melta guns' shot before applying the 'Melta' effect to it.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Please don't pretend that Arc has any rules similarity to other SRs weapons have. I'm not aware of any others that say to resolve the initial shot before resolving the SR.

The biggest reason is because if the unit you shot at is destroyed then there is no arc effect allowed.

Q: Do you roll for a tesla destructor’s Arc special rule if the unit it
shot at was wiped out by the shooting attack? (p82)
A: No, as there is no unit to measure range from.

This arguement has become very circular. My vote, and the way we play it is effects, that are not shooting attacks like Venful Tornado, Imotek's Lightning, Tesla Arc, Blessing, Maledictions, KFF's, Banners, and all other types of things do affect flyers. There really isn't anything in the rules to suggest these things shouldn't even with the FAQs which all refer to shooting attacks.

tgf wrote:
This arguement has become very circular. My vote, and the way we play it is effects, that are not shooting attacks like Venful Tornado, Imotek's Lightning, Tesla Arc, Blessing, Maledictions, KFF's, Banners, and all other types of things do affect flyers. There really isn't anything in the rules to suggest these things shouldn't even with the FAQs which all refer to shooting attacks.

Except of course for the FAQ that doesn't refer to shooting attacks - it refers to all attacks.
It's a fine house rule though.

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

TGF, I thijnk I've quoted it a dozen times now. I thought the same way you did until someone pointed it out to me and we went over the FAQ in detail. Imotekh’s Lightning a) Causes “hits”, and b) Does not roll Snap Shots to hit, and so it falls in the category of things that cannot hit ZF/SFMCs. Despite it also needing to roll 6s, so being cosmetically similar, it’s not Snap Shooting, so the FAQ ruling that “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creates” rules it out.

 Neorealist wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

Alrighty then. 2 questions this time:
1) What specific definition of 'shots' are you using for the quoted statement?
2) I do not believe you've addressed my contention that the Arc USR is explicitly an effect of the Tesla Destructor weapon and 'its' shots; not a seperate attack.

1. I’m using the same usage the rulebook uses for “shots” (which are explained on page 50, BTW). Which are individual firing attacks made by a shooting weapon, prior to determining the number of hits caused. For example, the Tesla Destructor has/makes 4 shots, which can potentially cause between 0 and 12 hits. A flamer, OTOH, makes 1 shot, which can hit as many models as are covered by the template. No matter how you slice it, Tesla Destructor Arc hits are not Snap Shots, and thus are forbidden from hitting by the FAQ saying “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures”.

2. The Arc effect (which is not a USR, BTW, so you might want to stop calling it one) certainly is an effect of the Tesla Destructor. But those hits are not caused by Snap Shots, they’re caused by a mechanism unrelated to and independent of BS and Snap Shooting; namely, rolling a 6 for any unit within 6” of the target. GW has exhaustively belabored the point in their FAQ on ZF/SFMCs that NOTHING gets to hit a flyer which doesn’t roll Snap Shots to hit that flyer. Templates, blasts, lines, beams, novas, maelstroms, things which hit automatically, things which don’t roll to hit, and anything which causes “hit”s but isn't a Snap Shot. Honestly, I don’t think they could possibly be more clear and explicit unless they were to go individually through every codex and every weapon and say “No, that can’t hit them either.”

I think you’re basing your argument on the idea that the Tesla Destructor DOES roll Snap Shots against the unit it’s targeting, and the Arc doesn’t trigger unless the Destructor scores at least one hit, so since the Destructor had to successfully Snap Shoot to get those hits, the Arc hits should qualify the same way the bonus 2 Tesla hits do. But I think that’s mistaken, and the two are fundamentally different. The bonus two Tesla hits are direct products of rolling a 6 to hit on a Snap Shot at that unit you’ve targeted. In order to get them against a ZF/SFMC you had to Skyfire or Snap Shoot, and risk that lowered overall chance to hit with those shots. The Arc hits:

A) Are potentially caused against totally different units, which are not the ones you Snap Shot at.
B) Are caused by a separate mechanism than rolling to hit. If they can hit ZF/SFMCs, it’s going to be on the same 6 they always need. Which is not a Snap Shot and totally unrelated to BS. GW has gone out of their way to say this stuff doesn’t work on ZF/SFMCs. Look at the case of the poor Seeker Missile. DESPITE only being able to be fired if a Marker Light FIRST hits the target, and despite that Marker Light having to Snap Fire in the first place to hit a ZF/SFMC, GW ruled that the Seeker Missile STILL needs to Snap Fire itself, and doesn’t get to hit on a 2+ like it normally does. The Seeker Missile is a clear parallel case; it’s an attack which can only happen dependent on another attack having hit first (like the Arc is dependent on the Destructor having hit before it can trigger), and yet it still can only hit by Snap Firing. Similarly, the Arc effect, which can never Snap Fire itself, is forbidden from hitting because it cannot Snap Fire.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.

Your first assertion is incorrect, all of those types of powers are "Witchfire" powers and are thus considered assault weapons (unless noted otherwise).

You're misremembering the rule. Manifesting a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon, but that doesn't actually make it a weapon. If (for example) a character has a Witchfire power, he can't swap that for something from the Wargear page of his codex which requires swapping a weapon.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Technically, the rule forbids targeting them and that would include beneficial maelstrom's and other abilities that require targeting. The Arc rule does not "Target".

Could you please, please read the FAQ you've quoted me quoting? It doesn't prevent beneficial abilities unless A) They're causing a "hit" on the ZF/SFMC, or B) Those powers are "attacks". Just read it.

 Neorealist wrote:
The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

The Arc hits are not landed by a Snap Shot, which is a shot restricted to firing at BS1. They're generated AFTER resolution of the Snap Shots (per the Tesla Destructor rules), and are caused on a separate roll of a 6. Not by a Snap Shot. They cause hits if you separately roll a 6, which is not a Snap Shot, so is ruled out by the sentence “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures”.

tgf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

If you believe this than a flyer can not be targeted by blessings or maledictions, nor can it gain any benifit from something like an aoe friendly coversave or banner.

Not so. Because Blessings and Maledictions (and cover save banners) do not cause hits, nor are they attacks.

It is worth mentioning that I asked the Indy open TO who is using the nova faq. They are ruling the arc does not affect fliers based on the GW faq. So worth noting if hitting either of those events.

The Onslaught GT a week ago made the same ruling. Neither Tesla Destructor Arcs nor Imotekh's lightning can hit ZF/SFMCs.

Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

I hate it when that happens.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

That's because you've had too much to drink. Or not enough. I can never remember how that works...

So only snap shot attacks can hit flyers, is what people are keying on, not the shooting aspect. So you count tornado and lightning, and tesla arc as attacks even though they aren't shooting. Interesting, it is always good to understand how others are approaching the subject.

So a blessing can get a flyer because it is not an attack, but a malediction could not?

tgf wrote:
So only snap shot attacks can hit flyers, is what people are keying on, not the shooting aspect. So you count tornado and lightning, and tesla arc as attacks even though they aren't shooting. Interesting, it is always good to understand how others are approaching the subject.

So a blessing can get a flyer because it is not an attack, but a malediction could not?

No a Malediction could as it does not generate hits.

Thanks for the continuing civilized and reasonable discussion, guys!

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

So we have two sentences giving clear and distinct prohibitions/limitations, and three explaining at some length what all kinds of attacks they apply to. There are only four sentences, but the third one fits in both categories.

Sentence two tells us that the only way to cause a "hit" on a ZF/SFMC is a Snap Shot. This rules out a number of things which may or may not be shooting and might be unclear about whether they are "attacks", sometimes because they don't target a unit (as attacks generally do), like Imotekh's lightning or Tesla Arc bounces.

Sentence three tells us that any attack which doesn't roll to hit and uses any sort of mechanism other than rolling to hit to affect a model, is not even allowed to target a ZF/SFMC.

The two of them together seem to pretty comprehensively cover just about any way to damage these units other than Snap Shots.

Sentences 1, 3, and 4 all list out all sorts of possible things and categories and types of weapons and attacks which can normally hit or target a unit, and confirms they're talking about all of them.

The only ambiguity I'm seeing is whether one might consider a Malediction an "attack", which would be forbidden from targeting them by sentence three. This is a bit unclear, but I think I'd come down on the side of "no", especially given that Maledictions are specifically allowed to target units in close combat. We had to have a similar discussion about what constitutes an "attack" on the INAT council in regards to Brotherhood of Psykers, which says that any "attack" which specifically targets psykers is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame in the squad, not the whole squad. We decided that "attack" in practical terms must be limited to things which cause wounds or damage, because it wouldn't make any sense (for example) for Psyk-Out Grenades to only lower the initiative of the Justicar, as they're all really Psykers.

There does cause an issue if you use this to base all abilities off as vector strike cannot be snap fired and therefor it can never work.

 Gravmyr wrote:
There does cause an issue if you use this to base all abilities off as vector strike cannot be snap fired and therefor it can never work.

Except of course it has explicit permission.

Except vector strikes are given explicit permission to hit flyers.

 madival wrote:
In my area, we always allowed it to happen since it needs a six to hit anything. As I can comfortably say the only flyer hurt by the arc is always the night scythe shooting it.

How would you get a Night scyth close enough to be hit by it's own arc? Any unit able to arc from the table to the flyer would be almost underneath it so well inside the 45% degrees of depression on the gun mounts.

Firing at a Trygon.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Thanks for the continuing civilized and reasonable discussion, guys!

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

So we have two sentences giving clear and distinct prohibitions/limitations, and three explaining at some length what all kinds of attacks they apply to. There are only four sentences, but the third one fits in both categories.

Sentence two tells us that the only way to cause a "hit" on a ZF/SFMC is a Snap Shot. This rules out a number of things which may or may not be shooting and might be unclear about whether they are "attacks", sometimes because they don't target a unit (as attacks generally do), like Imotekh's lightning or Tesla Arc bounces.

Sentence three tells us that any attack which doesn't roll to hit and uses any sort of mechanism other than rolling to hit to affect a model, is not even allowed to target a ZF/SFMC.

The two of them together seem to pretty comprehensively cover just about any way to damage these units other than Snap Shots.

Sentences 1, 3, and 4 all list out all sorts of possible things and categories and types of weapons and attacks which can normally hit or target a unit, and confirms they're talking about all of them.

The only ambiguity I'm seeing is whether one might consider a Malediction an "attack", which would be forbidden from targeting them by sentence three. This is a bit unclear, but I think I'd come down on the side of "no", especially given that Maledictions are specifically allowed to target units in close combat. We had to have a similar discussion about what constitutes an "attack" on the INAT council in regards to Brotherhood of Psykers, which says that any "attack" which specifically targets psykers is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame in the squad, not the whole squad. We decided that "attack" in practical terms must be limited to things which cause wounds or damage, because it wouldn't make any sense (for example) for Psyk-Out Grenades to only lower the initiative of the Justicar, as they're all really Psykers.

Well considering the FAq specifically calls out that only the witchfire, beam, and nova Psychic abilities as affected, then I think it is safe to say blessings and Maledictions do work.