Hey guys n' gals! I'm new to this forum and to war-gaming.
Something that has really bothered me since starting to play, is how unbelievably over emphasized space marines / imperial guard are, and how little love the other races get (especially the Tau). They don't have a novel, they don't have much fluff in their codex, and they're frankly under powered in the game itself.
I started playing Tau because of their sleek aesthetic and how much I enjoy painting them, and then discovered just how lore-less they are. I find that their position as the youngest race, their random quick surge to technological prominence, and their extremely persuasive nature to be AWESOME story mechanics that aren't explored at all. I also found the existing fluff in the codex to be really lame and non-concrete. There isn't a firm naming / language pattern, although it's explored somewhat. The religious / societal nature of the Tau is explored slightly in the caste system, but so few details are given I was very disappointed.
I have a couple questions: Is there some authoritative community resource where I can see more community made Tau lore?
Is there more canon Tau lore that I just don't know about?
Thanks man. Basically everything on that post is included in the Codex. What I'm talking about is going further than that.
For example, it touches on their Tau names, but doesn't give an exhaustive list of adjectives one can achieve in battle, or other titles to earn.
And while there is a semi-decent amount of lore regarding their formation, there is basically none regarding the spheres of expansion, their relationship with space marines after the third expansion, or anything like that.
Consider it my fellow Tau player a blank canvas to create upon, find what fluff and background there is and run with it, make it your own, personally thats what I enjoy about the less "developed" factions, leave you more room to inovate.
Also the site http://advancedtautactica.com/ has some fairly indepth articles written by fans, the site can seem a bit frosty but some of the content is top notch.
As I explore more and more Tau lore, I find myself developing a deep hatred for Space Marines
I'm actually in the process of building my army, which I'm calling the Illu'Vata Sept. (Illu meaning illuminated, or with honored thought and Vata meaning exile, outcast or alone) They don't have a homeworld, and are technically oustide of the regular societal laws of Tau society. During the third expansion they formed during a desperate fight against the Space Marines, made up of many armies consolodated forces. Thus, they have a huge range of armor colors.
A deep hatred for the space marines, specifically their heinous religious convictions, drives this sept to use unconventional battle tactics and to adopt new weapons and societal attitudes. The caste system is disintegrating because of the armies strong conviction not only for the greater good but for the annihilation of the space marines, and their strong bonds forged in veterancy in War.
A quick scan of the words / translators shows no words for illuminated or exiles, so I'm just gonna keep Illu and Vata.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I actually picked up a bunch of purity seals and banners from a friend, and I plan on putting them all over my units, especially my firewarriors and crisis suits. They wear them like kill markers, and pride themselves in the sacrilege they get to inflict on the space marines.
well i recommend starting a modeling / painting blog here and even write some fluff material for the fiction forums, it will help keep the creative juices flowing and get input from fellow enthusiasts, I have done that and it has helped alot, always nice to get input
And as your Sept background ideas sounds cool, more of a embittered battlehardened Tau group, could make for some cool conversions.
ATT is really the place to go for tau. They have everything even when they had to make it up. Make sure you check out there card catalog. http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12186 It will let you track down all the scattered bits of tau fluff.
TheKoop wrote: Hey guys n' gals! I'm new to this forum and to war-gaming.
Something that has really bothered me since starting to play, is how unbelievably over emphasized space marines / imperial guard are, and how little love the other races get (especially the Tau). They don't have a novel, they don't have much fluff in their codex, and they're frankly under powered in the game itself.
I started playing Tau because of their sleek aesthetic and how much I enjoy painting them, and then discovered just how lore-less they are. I find that their position as the youngest race, their random quick surge to technological prominence, and their extremely persuasive nature to be AWESOME story mechanics that aren't explored at all. I also found the existing fluff in the codex to be really lame and non-concrete. There isn't a firm naming / language pattern, although it's explored somewhat. The religious / societal nature of the Tau is explored slightly in the caste system, but so few details are given I was very disappointed.
I have a couple questions: Is there some authoritative community resource where I can see more community made Tau lore?
Is there more canon Tau lore that I just don't know about?
I personally like the Tau as an addition to the 40k universe. It is my personal opinion that the "core" of the story is the struggle for humanity, and ultimately the Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts the "main" characters. That however is a matter of opinion and in saying that I do mean to offer any insult to the other races in the game, all of which contribute to making the game as amazing as it is ('cept the crons... I don't like 'em because I think they don't fit).
My favorite analogy is that of a painting. The Marines/CSM are the picture... or what the story is about. All the other factions make up the background and foreground, the canvas, and the frame... without all of those, even the main characters would not exist.
However I would also like to say that the reason for "lack of love" for the Tau is due largely to their relative newness. They are late comers to a game that has decades of history for the other, older factions. In time, they will catch up. As well, I personally suspect that they will be the next codex to be released.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: well i recommend starting a modeling / painting blog here and even write some fluff material for the fiction forums, it will help keep the creative juices flowing and get input from fellow enthusiasts, I have done that and it has helped alot, always nice to get input
And as your Sept background ideas sounds cool, more of a embittered battlehardened Tau group, could make for some cool conversions.
Yeah! I think I'll upload some stuff. I've just started some Pathfinders with Rail rifle conversions, doing some cloaks / camo of green stuff. Can anyone give me a link to a place where the Tau lore is collected on this site?
Dakka has a whole forum area for it http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/56.page just start a thread there post pics from your gallery as you upload them and people may or may not comment, for a example feel free to check out the link for my P & M thread below in my sig.
Here a list of official Tau resources with my personal evaluation:
1.) Sandy Mitchell: "For the Emperor" (best Tau and Kroot novel so far, faithful to original background, describes an Imperial planet trying to join the Tau Empire, not a real Tau society though)
2.) Gav Thorpe: "Kill Team". Released with 3rd edition Codex. Written from the perspective of a psychopathic human mercenary, love it or hate it. Describes ethereals hiring human psychopaths for killing a Tau general, Brightsword, love it or hate it. But it gives the most glimpses so far into tau planets and Tau space travel.
3.) Simon Spurrier: "Fire Warrior". Novelisation of a PC and PS2 egoshooter game. Limits the plot. But you learn something about Fire Warriors, tau personal life, and if they are corruptable by Chaos.
4.) IA3: Taros Campaign. Describes a military campaign IoM vs. Tau. Good read, but mostly military information.
5.) Simon Spurrier: "Xenology". Highly controversial background book. Descibes a mad inquisitor dissecting several Xenos, a.o. an ethereal. Speculates that ethereals are made by Eldar to create a race immune to Chaos, with an pheromone organ playing a decisive role. Pic of ethereal makes an obvious error by showing toes instead of hooves. Deathwatch book mocks pheromone theory. Good read but don't take anything there as gospel.
6.) Deathwatch RPG books: Tau and their human allies are one of the enemies of the player characters. Controversial about how canonical the information is, given that it is written by FFG, that Tau are the foe, that the sector is isolated and human dominated.
7.) Andy Hoare has written 3 novels about the Damocles Crusade: "Rogue Star", "Star of Damocles" and "Savage Scars". Not much info on Tau in the first two books (don't remember much, not a good sign). The third one is classic bolter porn: Space marines invade a Tau home planet. Tau defend themselves, a Space Marine gets killed, the main character avenges him. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter in a ranged attack and those that splatter in close combat. If you like Tau, forget all three.
8.) Graham McNeill: "Courage and Honour". Also classic bolter porn without any logic. Plot: A Tau army of orbital drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge crossing a river, yeah, that stupid. Space Marine wants to drive a Tau vehicle, has no manual so eats the brain of the driver (also stupid, but sadly canon). If you like tau, forget this book.
Just released in January (haven't read it yet):
Sandy Mitchell: The Greater Good. Rumours have it that you don't learn much about tau, but because of "For the Emperor", I give it a chance.
New in March:
Peter Fehervari: "Fire Caste" No idea about quality.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
Yes as Kroothawk stated keep your pulse rifle loaded and hip waders ready for the IoM fanatics hurling feces , but all in all I like Dakka
In my opinion the IA : 3 Taros campaign is the most comprehensive example of Tau military behavior and reactions, and has a nice realistic feel to the battles, its shame as usual though its mainly from the imperial perspective, but does show some of the better side of the Tau, and their support and backing of allied forces, a good read.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
This is, basically, true. That said, I, personally, like all the factions equally... or, it could possibly be said that I hate them all equally. Well, I guess it balances itself out in the end.
Nah, seriously, I like the Tau, I just haven't really had the chance to use them in any of my Dark Heresy campaigns yet.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
Funny enough, I had far less difficulty accepting the Tau as a new race as I did the Necrons. The Tau are a young and expansionist race that are only just starting to have their presence felt on the galactic stage, but the necrons suddenly being introduced as a new 'ultimate bad guy', when the Tyranids and Chaos had already been jostling for that for about fifteen years, was fairly difficult to take onboard.
I've never been a Tau player but in terms of fluff I really like the Tau as unlike the other races they're dark side is a lot more subtle. Plus the idea the Imperium is threatened by reasonable diplomacy and has no idea how to counter it due to 10,000 years of xenocidal warfare is both interesting and kind of funny.
I recommend the Xenology book, there are some BIG things dropped in it, plus canonical contradictions but overall very good IMO. I also like it because while the 'smaller' playable races get little background, the truly minor races only ever get mentioned in passing, which is a shame because 40k has a decent catalogue of truly alien and weird creatures. In the book a few of these get discussed in a refreshing level of detail. Xeno like the parasitic Hrud, warp dwelling Umbra and my favourite the Thyrrus a squid-like race who see warfare as performance art and so baffle the Imperium by tactics that are literally chosen based on the rule of cool.
I have been into 40k since the 80s, and slowly got kinda bored with the grimdarkness, and proliferation of CC silliness to the point where I almost shelved the hobby, but decided to give the Tau a go, and got hooked on the combined arms feel and the much reduced CC silliness, embarked on a RL -ish painting scheme for mine, and it rekindled my enjoyment of the game, for me no other faction of 40k has quite the possible scope of modeling and styles of design.
And I enjoy the fluff what little there is (barely enough to stuff a throw pillow )
TheKoop wrote: Hey guys n' gals! I'm new to this forum and to war-gaming.
Something that has really bothered me since starting to play, is how unbelievably over emphasized space marines / imperial guard are, and how little love the other races get (especially the Tau). They don't have a novel, they don't have much fluff in their codex, and they're frankly under powered in the game itself.
I started playing Tau because of their sleek aesthetic and how much I enjoy painting them, and then discovered just how lore-less they are. I find that their position as the youngest race, their random quick surge to technological prominence, and their extremely persuasive nature to be AWESOME story mechanics that aren't explored at all. I also found the existing fluff in the codex to be really lame and non-concrete. There isn't a firm naming / language pattern, although it's explored somewhat. The religious / societal nature of the Tau is explored slightly in the caste system, but so few details are given I was very disappointed.
I have a couple questions: Is there some authoritative community resource where I can see more community made Tau lore?
Is there more canon Tau lore that I just don't know about?
I personally like the Tau as an addition to the 40k universe. It is my personal opinion that the "core" of the story is the struggle for humanity, and ultimately the Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts the "main" characters. That however is a matter of opinion and in saying that I do mean to offer any insult to the other races in the game, all of which contribute to making the game as amazing as it is ('cept the crons... I don't like 'em because I think they don't fit).
My favorite analogy is that of a painting. The Marines/CSM are the picture... or what the story is about. All the other factions make up the background and foreground, the canvas, and the frame... without all of those, even the main characters would not exist.
However I would also like to say that the reason for "lack of love" for the Tau is due largely to their relative newness. They are late comers to a game that has decades of history for the other, older factions. In time, they will catch up. As well, I personally suspect that they will be the next codex to be released.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Not so much the Tau themselves but some marvelous Kroot revelations and interaction in the short story 'Unity' in the anthology 'Fear The Alien'.
Can you give a small hint in spoilers? And if it is worth reading for Kroot fans?
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Not so much the Tau themselves but some marvelous Kroot revelations and interaction in the short story 'Unity' in the anthology 'Fear The Alien'.
Can you give a small hint in spoilers? And if it is worth reading for Kroot fans?
The story is from the viewpoint of an imperial guardsman who finds himself, along with a raven guard marine, stranded behind enemy lines during a tau invasion.
In the end they are finally captured by the kroot, along with a human auxiliary who is interpreting for the kroot and spreading propaganda, it gets quite dark then and the alien-ness of the kroot is revealed as they devour the marine and then the guardsman, with the human auxiliary unsteadily talking to the hapless main course about how they will go on to serve the Greater Good in a new fashion. I think as a kroot fan, you should read it. The anthology overall is somewhat hit and miss, some of the tales (faces) are downright odd and others are great.
Thanks for all the responses guys! In my exploring I've become a little disappointed in GW. I feel like they could easily provide clearer canon resources to the community (Maybe something as simple as a comprehensive map), so that at least on some level the community generated fluff would resemble one another. As I'm writing the background for my army, I'm finding that I'm having to make up a lot of details which worries me because I could be inventing data that already is canon.
Kroothawk wrote: Here a list of official Tau resources with my personal evaluation:
1.) Sandy Mitchell: "For the Emperor" (best Tau and Kroot novel so far, faithful to original background, describes an Imperial planet trying to join the Tau Empire, not a real Tau society though)
2.) Gav Thorpe: "Kill Team". Released with 3rd edition Codex. Written from the perspective of a psychopathic human mercenary, love it or hate it. Describes ethereals hiring human psychopaths for killing a Tau general, Brightsword, love it or hate it. But it gives the most glimpses so far into tau planets and Tau space travel.
3.) Simon Spurrier: "Fire Warrior". Novelisation of a PC and PS2 egoshooter game. Limits the plot. But you learn something about Fire Warriors, tau personal life, and if they are corruptable by Chaos.
4.) IA3: Taros Campaign. Describes a military campaign IoM vs. Tau. Good read, but mostly military information.
5.) Simon Spurrier: "Xenology". Highly controversial background book. Descibes a mad inquisitor dissecting several Xenos, a.o. an ethereal. Speculates that ethereals are made by Eldar to create a race immune to Chaos, with an pheromone organ playing a decisive role. Pic of ethereal makes an obvious error by showing toes instead of hooves. Deathwatch book mocks pheromone theory. Good read but don't take anything there as gospel.
6.) Deathwatch RPG books: Tau and their human allies are one of the enemies of the player characters. Controversial about how canonical the information is, given that it is written by FFG, that Tau are the foe, that the sector is isolated and human dominated.
7.) Andy Hoare has written 3 novels about the Damocles Crusade: "Rogue Star", "Star of Damocles" and "Savage Scars". Not much info on Tau in the first two books (don't remember much, not a good sign). The third one is classic bolter porn: Space marines invade a Tau home planet. Tau defend themselves, a Space Marine gets killed, the main character avenges him. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter in a ranged attack and those that splatter in close combat. If you like Tau, forget all three.
8.) Graham McNeill: "Courage and Honour". Also classic bolter porn without any logic. Plot: A Tau army of orbital drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge crossing a river, yeah, that stupid. Space Marine wants to drive a Tau vehicle, has no manual so eats the brain of the driver (also stupid, but sadly canon). If you like tau, forget this book.
Just released in January (haven't read it yet):
Sandy Mitchell: The Greater Good. Rumours have it that you don't learn much about tau, but because of "For the Emperor", I give it a chance.
New in March:
Peter Fehervari: "Fire Caste" No idea about quality.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
I didn't think Courage and Honour could be that bad, so i read it. It was worse than i expected and it's clear that Graham Mcneill knows very little about the Tau, the book has:
Spoiler:
A Pathfinder Surrendering (Possible, but i think it would be unlikely)
An Orca full of Tau (24 FireWarriors, 6 Crisis suits and drones) only managing to kill about 2 Skiitari and 3 Space Marines.
Close Combat Crisis suits that decide it's a good idea to jump right next to some Space Marines and start Kicking and punching them instead of shooting, with one of them armed with a power-khopesh sword.
Dozens of Hammerheads, Devilfish, Battlesuits, Hundreds of Firewarriors and other things being sacrificed by the Tau in a diversion attack
2 Predators taking out over a dozen Tau Skimmers
Dozens of Tau tanks being destroyed by the Imperial Guard like they are nothing, with hardly any losses to the Guardsmen.
Plenty of hints that an Ethereal has some sort of mind control powers that even work on humans
An Ethereal having some sort of magic touch that makes pain go away (it works in humans)
A Pathfinder suddenly becoming a Fire Warrior
A Bonding Knife being called an Honour Blade and being used as a melee weapon
Tau chest armour doing nothing against what is pretty much a sharp stick (a crutch with a sharpened edge)
Tau Helmets doing nothing against being hit on the head with a crutch
Kroot and Vespid are apparently expendable, despite the Tau not even considering drones as expendable
Battlesuits doing nothing against bolter rounds, even though they should offer some protection
Battlesuits and Stealth suits that for some reason decide not to use their jump packs to get away from close combat and would rather stay and try to punch space marines
Pulse rifles doing NOTHING against power armour
Tau having red blood
A female fire warrior has normal feet, instead of hooves
I think it also had two batons the Ethereals have being called Honour Blades.
Space Marines stealing Tetras and using them to sneak past Drone sentry Towers.
The Tau don't realize the Imperial Guard are blowing up bridges, even though they already destroyed 1, so they cross it and it gets blown up as they cross.
Several times the book calls the Tau over confident and has them make assumptions that cause them to take quite a few losses (such as thinking a Squad of Space Marine scouts is just an Imperial Guard spotter team so they only send 4 Tetras against them)
The Female pathfinder that seems to really like close combat - using an Eviscerator and later on using her bonding knife (called an honour blade in the book) to repeatedly stab someone because she is angry.
Ethereal Guards being absolutely useless (and for some reason 1 of them is the female pathfinder) and can't take down 3 unarmed civilians, one of which is very old.
For some reason half of the Tau plan involves getting the Imperial Governor to join them. He was going to (although the book says it's because of mind control by the Ethereal that he considers it) but then he realises the Tau are holding guns and decides they are evil. Later on the Tau try again and he decides he will actually join them, although again he decides they are actually evil, so they forcibly kidnap him with a knife to his throat, even though at this point he is no longer governor and isn't any more important than anyone else. The book tries really hard to make the Tau look bad, can't have anything non-imperial look good!
Oh, and it also has Space Marines actually crying.
Well a lot of that sounds rather silly, improbable or kind of dumb. I can kind of see some good in some of the things you mention. If your going to go the route of giving aun mind control, then make it work on humans. It gives them something to do at least. They do get kind of boring when they are just revered elders. Also why can't the bonding knife be used as a weapon? I know I know it's a ceremonial weapon, but it's dose have an edge on it. On the feet thing, we know it's not really cannon. On the other hand, I have seen a few nice far art pictures, and tau do kind of look better and make more sense when you take away the cloven feet. Try picturing someone being agile with hoves. Try picturing them climbing over rocks and in trees, try picture them climbing a ladder, try picturing them sneaking down a hallway with big clopping steps. If I had to write a story involving a pathfinder, I would try to find a way to give them less ridged feet.
nomotog wrote: Well a lot of that sounds rather silly, improbable or kind of dumb. I can kind of see some good in some of the things you mention. If your going to go the route of giving aun mind control, then make it work on humans. It gives them something to do at least. They do get kind of boring when they are just revered elders. Also why can't the bonding knife be used as a weapon? I know I know it's a ceremonial weapon, but it's dose have an edge on it. On the feet thing, we know it's not really cannon. On the other hand, I have seen a few nice far art pictures, and tau do kind of look better and make more sense when you take away the cloven feet. Try picturing someone being agile with hoves. Try picturing them climbing over rocks and in trees, try picture them climbing a ladder, try picturing them sneaking down a hallway with big clopping steps. If I had to write a story involving a pathfinder, I would try to find a way to give them less ridged feet.
The 'mind control' thing is something that Graham has just completely made up and that had no evidence before he wrote the book. There is no explanation for it, and it is stupid. The way the book words it suggests it is just because of the way the Ethereal speaks and because the Tau there are just impressive, but then it goes and says mind control. The whole revered elders thing isn't boring, there is plenty of mystery to it without requiring mind control of any sort.
The bonding knife is a ceremonial weapon not intended for combat, i don't have much of a problem with it being used it's just how the Tau acted with it - repeatedly stabbing someone out of anger.
The hooves is just how the Tau are, it makes them more alien. Got any examples of the nice looking fan-made pictures?
Well, you have been warned (though I admit that I forgot some of the bad stuff). It is the same author that let Fulgrim choke an Eldar Avatar to death that doesn't even breath! Sadly, McNeill once was the second best BL writer.
Concerning the hooves: Hooves bad for climbing? Are you kidding???
And ladders are for humans, Tau have ramps. And no big deal putting leather shoes on hooves for silent movement.
And I also don't follow the "Buddha is boring, Kali is cool" argument.
Kroothawk wrote: Well, you have been warned (though I admit that I forgot some of the bad stuff). It is the same author that let Fulgrim choke an Eldar Avatar to death that doesn't even breath! Sadly, McNeill once was the second best BL writer.
Concerning the hooves: Hooves bad for climbing? Are you kidding???
And ladders are for humans, Tau have ramps. And no big deal putting leather shoes on hooves.
Great pic Kroothawk...spider goat..spider goat, going where ever a spider goat goes!
The Tau, a race that builds man portable railguns, neural controled battlesuits, and optic variable camoflage, would likely know how to make sneaky shoes to go on their feet!
I didn't think Courage and Honour could be that bad, so i read it. It was worse than i expected and it's clear that Graham Mcneill knows very little about the Tau, the book has:
Spoiler:
A Pathfinder Surrendering (Possible, but i think it would be unlikely)
An Orca full of Tau (24 FireWarriors, 6 Crisis suits and drones) only managing to kill about 2 Skiitari and 3 Space Marines.
Close Combat Crisis suits that decide it's a good idea to jump right next to some Space Marines and start Kicking and punching them instead of shooting, with one of them armed with a power-khopesh sword.
Dozens of Hammerheads, Devilfish, Battlesuits, Hundreds of Firewarriors and other things being sacrificed by the Tau in a diversion attack
2 Predators taking out over a dozen Tau Skimmers
Dozens of Tau tanks being destroyed by the Imperial Guard like they are nothing, with hardly any losses to the Guardsmen.
Plenty of hints that an Ethereal has some sort of mind control powers that even work on humans
An Ethereal having some sort of magic touch that makes pain go away (it works in humans)
A Pathfinder suddenly becoming a Fire Warrior
A Bonding Knife being called an Honour Blade and being used as a melee weapon
Tau chest armour doing nothing against what is pretty much a sharp stick (a crutch with a sharpened edge)
Tau Helmets doing nothing against being hit on the head with a crutch
Kroot and Vespid are apparently expendable, despite the Tau not even considering drones as expendable
Battlesuits doing nothing against bolter rounds, even though they should offer some protection
Battlesuits and Stealth suits that for some reason decide not to use their jump packs to get away from close combat and would rather stay and try to punch space marines
Pulse rifles doing NOTHING against power armour
Tau having red blood
A female fire warrior has normal feet, instead of hooves
I think it also had two batons the Ethereals have being called Honour Blades.
Space Marines stealing Tetras and using them to sneak past Drone sentry Towers.
The Tau don't realize the Imperial Guard are blowing up bridges, even though they already destroyed 1, so they cross it and it gets blown up as they cross.
Several times the book calls the Tau over confident and has them make assumptions that cause them to take quite a few losses (such as thinking a Squad of Space Marine scouts is just an Imperial Guard spotter team so they only send 4 Tetras against them)
The Female pathfinder that seems to really like close combat - using an Eviscerator and later on using her bonding knife (called an honour blade in the book) to repeatedly stab someone because she is angry.
Ethereal Guards being absolutely useless (and for some reason 1 of them is the female pathfinder) and can't take down 3 unarmed civilians, one of which is very old.
For some reason half of the Tau plan involves getting the Imperial Governor to join them. He was going to (although the book says it's because of mind control by the Ethereal that he considers it) but then he realises the Tau are holding guns and decides they are evil. Later on the Tau try again and he decides he will actually join them, although again he decides they are actually evil, so they forcibly kidnap him with a knife to his throat, even though at this point he is no longer governor and isn't any more important than anyone else. The book tries really hard to make the Tau look bad, can't have anything non-imperial look good!
Oh, and it also has Space Marines actually crying.
Kroothawk wrote: Well, you have been warned (though I admit that I forgot some of the bad stuff). It is the same author that let Fulgrim choke an Eldar Avatar to death that doesn't even breath! Sadly, McNeill once was the second best BL writer.
Concerning the hooves: Hooves bad for climbing? Are you kidding???
And ladders are for humans, Tau have ramps. And no big deal putting leather shoes on hooves for silent movement.
And I also don't follow the "Buddha is boring, Kali is cool" argument.
So that's how you picture it.... It's a little silly.
I didn't think Courage and Honour could be that bad, so i read it. It was worse than i expected and it's clear that Graham Mcneill knows very little about the Tau, the book has:
Spoiler:
A Pathfinder Surrendering (Possible, but i think it would be unlikely)
An Orca full of Tau (24 FireWarriors, 6 Crisis suits and drones) only managing to kill about 2 Skiitari and 3 Space Marines.
Close Combat Crisis suits that decide it's a good idea to jump right next to some Space Marines and start Kicking and punching them instead of shooting, with one of them armed with a power-khopesh sword.
Dozens of Hammerheads, Devilfish, Battlesuits, Hundreds of Firewarriors and other things being sacrificed by the Tau in a diversion attack
2 Predators taking out over a dozen Tau Skimmers
Dozens of Tau tanks being destroyed by the Imperial Guard like they are nothing, with hardly any losses to the Guardsmen.
Plenty of hints that an Ethereal has some sort of mind control powers that even work on humans
An Ethereal having some sort of magic touch that makes pain go away (it works in humans)
A Pathfinder suddenly becoming a Fire Warrior
A Bonding Knife being called an Honour Blade and being used as a melee weapon
Tau chest armour doing nothing against what is pretty much a sharp stick (a crutch with a sharpened edge)
Tau Helmets doing nothing against being hit on the head with a crutch
Kroot and Vespid are apparently expendable, despite the Tau not even considering drones as expendable
Battlesuits doing nothing against bolter rounds, even though they should offer some protection
Battlesuits and Stealth suits that for some reason decide not to use their jump packs to get away from close combat and would rather stay and try to punch space marines
Pulse rifles doing NOTHING against power armour
Tau having red blood
A female fire warrior has normal feet, instead of hooves
I think it also had two batons the Ethereals have being called Honour Blades.
Space Marines stealing Tetras and using them to sneak past Drone sentry Towers.
The Tau don't realize the Imperial Guard are blowing up bridges, even though they already destroyed 1, so they cross it and it gets blown up as they cross.
Several times the book calls the Tau over confident and has them make assumptions that cause them to take quite a few losses (such as thinking a Squad of Space Marine scouts is just an Imperial Guard spotter team so they only send 4 Tetras against them)
The Female pathfinder that seems to really like close combat - using an Eviscerator and later on using her bonding knife (called an honour blade in the book) to repeatedly stab someone because she is angry.
Ethereal Guards being absolutely useless (and for some reason 1 of them is the female pathfinder) and can't take down 3 unarmed civilians, one of which is very old.
For some reason half of the Tau plan involves getting the Imperial Governor to join them. He was going to (although the book says it's because of mind control by the Ethereal that he considers it) but then he realises the Tau are holding guns and decides they are evil. Later on the Tau try again and he decides he will actually join them, although again he decides they are actually evil, so they forcibly kidnap him with a knife to his throat, even though at this point he is no longer governor and isn't any more important than anyone else. The book tries really hard to make the Tau look bad, can't have anything non-imperial look good!
Oh, and it also has Space Marines actually crying.
It is a terrible book .
I love it, it describes Tau pretty well.
The book getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
Huge differance
In IA3 (which only hurts your backside since the xenos actually won) the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe, but are failed by their higher command, (which happens both in RL and in various books) to a book that take liberties with a established points of a race or group.
One side will win one will lose and usually its not due to the guys on the ground but the top of the chain, there are plenty of books where the IoM triumphs over all and such, suck it up and move on.
Remeber the side that wins in a battle is the one that makes the fewest mistakes.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe.
Are you kidding me?
The only Regiment who fought well were Elysian 23'rd and they were wiped out by overwhelming Tau force.
Reading that book was like reading bad Tau fanfiction, ok Tau has won and I respect that - they had good strategies, they had superior air support and shiny new toys.
But the Imperials described there acted like they were slowed - even Space Marines. The only good part of the book was at the very end where entire Tau force charged at retreating Guardsmen and they were pushed back by a single Raptors company.
If we compare the Guard in Vraks and Guard in Taros it's like comparing two different universes.
I am sorry, Taros was maybe good to show new fancy Tau toys and strategies but they completely ruined the Guard there not to mention they made Astartes to look like they are lazy.
Completely and utter rubbish, but on the bright side I liked how they represented that Tau. Sending all surviving Guardsmen to work in Taros mines until they die... the true representation of the Grater Good.
It was an awful book. Excuse the outcome or the battle descriptions the sheer lore innacuracies made it obvious that the author had not researched the Tau at all beyond looking at the catalog of units on gameworkshop's website.
Some people would call any book on Tau well written, as long as it bashes, humiliates and insults the Tau race with no respect for official background. Realism is only accepted if it bows to ideology. But let's not feed the troll any further.
Typical Kroothawk, calling troll anyone who disagree his view on Tau... in that case you must wonder who troll really is, no
In that case, why didn't you 2 just recommend him to play "Fire Warrior" video game? To you two there is probably nothing wrong with how fluff and Tau are represented there, right?
Only going to say this once, keep your suggestions as to what other people should do, to yourself.
And as to recomending a computer game for Lore on a tabletop game is kinda stupid, since the only thing these games truly have in common is names and images, endings, background and all are created by different companies for differing needs, but hey think and believe what you want, the OP wanted sources and thats what we provided, you on the other hand are a troll.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: Typical Kroothawk, calling troll anyone who disagree his view on Tau... in that case you must wonder who troll really is, no
In that case, why didn't you 2 just recommend him to play "Fire Warrior" video game? To you two there is probably nothing wrong with how fluff and Tau are represented there, right?
Nothing wrong with how all the races are portrayed in Dawn of War either, right? Everyone knows Space Marine bolters need dozens of bullets to take down anything. It's a video game, it's not going to be completely accurate because of gameplay reasons.
It seems like you just really hate the Tau. Half the things i mentioned are completely inaccurate and show the Graham doesn't know much about the tau, even if you don't like them.
Getting lots of things wrong and making up other things does not describe the Tau well.
Same was with Imperial Guard in IA3:Taros Campaign, never did I heard from Tau fans that anything was wrong with how the Guard was presented there.
In the same way I don't see anything wrong with Tau represented in this book.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: the IG fight well and are represented as a brave and determined foe.
Are you kidding me?
The only Regiment who fought well were Elysian 23'rd and they were wiped out by overwhelming Tau force.
Reading that book was like reading bad Tau fanfiction, ok Tau has won and I respect that - they had good strategies, they had superior air support and shiny new toys.
But the Imperials described there acted like they were slowed - even Space Marines. The only good part of the book was at the very end where entire Tau force charged at retreating Guardsmen and they were pushed back by a single Raptors company.
If we compare the Guard in Vraks and Guard in Taros it's like comparing two different universes.
I am sorry, Taros was maybe good to show new fancy Tau toys and strategies but they completely ruined the Guard there not to mention they made Astartes to look like they are lazy.
Completely and utter rubbish, but on the bright side I liked how they represented that Tau. Sending all surviving Guardsmen to work in Taros mines until they die... the true representation of the Grater Good.
IA3 mentions nothing about the working conditions. It just says they work in the mines. No one complains about it because there is nothing wrong with the way the Guard are represented in that book.
Kroothawk wrote: 7.) Andy Hoare has written 3 novels about the Damocles Crusade: "Rogue Star", "Star of Damocles" and "Savage Scars". Not much info on Tau in the first two books (don't remember much, not a good sign). The third one is classic bolter porn: Space marines invade a Tau home planet. Tau defend themselves, a Space Marine gets killed, the main character avenges him. Tau are characterised in two ways: Those that splatter in a ranged attack and those that splatter in close combat. If you like Tau, forget all three.
8.) Graham McNeill: "Courage and Honour". Also classic bolter porn without any logic. Plot: A Tau army of orbital drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge crossing a river, yeah, that stupid. Space Marine wants to drive a Tau vehicle, has no manual so eats the brain of the driver (also stupid, but sadly canon). If you like tau, forget this book.
Oh God, this. The first two books are about a Rogue Trader family trying to win back their riches by opening up opportunities of trade with a couple of feuding planetary governors and their new xenos allies. They fight each other over new weapons and technology, turns our Rogue Traders have power armour and magic rings that shoot lasers and flames. The Tau are so far in the background as to be invisible. There's a couple of space battles where Tau are feared because of their rail weaponry but that's pretty much it. I can't remember much else.
Savage Scars is ridiculous. A White Scars veteran sergeant is suddenly a prominent member of the council running the entire crusade - yes, a grunt at the very top of the command hierarchy. This council is a paltry sum - a mere fraction of what the actual ruling body would need to be to run this thing. Then again, the "crusade" itself is so paltry as to become laughable, and representative of Hoare's complete and utter lack of any sense of proper scale in the 40K 'verse. Something which is highlighted further when an entire planetfall campaign is pretty much won by a handful of SM squads (yes, that's squads - five or six marines) who drop down into a field and fight a skirmish against a group of Fire Warriors, a sentry tower, and a couple of stealth drones. Wow, and I thought assaulting a planet would be difficult, or at least take a while... Oh, and then the White Scars sergeant succumbs to a berserker-rage fit whenever a team of Crisis Suites turn up, allowing him to jump on them and start tearing through their armour with his hands (yes, this is actually what happens). And the White Scars? Apparently Hoare knows as little about them as he does about the Tau, or military campaigns in general. Here I was thinking they were going to be a lightening-strike force, experts at hit-and-run tactics using bikes and speeders... nope, apparently they're just foot-slogging, plasma-cannon wielding Blood Angels... in white.
After reading over and over about how good McNeill is in how he treats SMs I decided to give Courage and Honour a go. Oh dear. While not nearly as bad as the Damocles trilogy, it's a long way from being good when it comes to the SM or the Tau. The only parts of the novel I found remotely interesting were the human-based ones. I found the build up to the Tau invasion pretty good and it had me quite excited... but I soon realised what was in store when the Tau are introduced by one of their pathfinder teams being ambushed by a force of SMs. Yes, you read that right: Tau, a race with (apparently) formidably advanced technology sent pathfinders (supposed experts at stealth, tracking, scanning and targeting capability) right into an ambush set up in fields by huge bright blue power-armoured shock troops with heavy weapons emplacements. Not scouts. Not snipers. Not Guard light infantry. Tactical Marines with missile launchers. To say I was a little disappointed with the book is putting it mildly.
I never read any of those books and seeing some of the descriptions of how SM tore apart suits just makes me cringe.
I actually liked some of the stuff from the RT and Deathwatch games, just because the D10 and D100 system gave a bit of insight into how strong Tau firepower is. Pulse rifles are actually better than sniper rifles and Crisis suits were strong enough to take down several marines from a distance with firepower.
As someone who is equally fond of both the Tau and the IoM, and as someone who has read both IA3 and Courage and Honour... I can confidently say no, he isn't kidding you. It really is that bad of a book. To compare it with an IA book, some of the better, more realistic (read: believable) material on the 40K 'verse, is laughable.
Shlazaor wrote: It was an awful book. Excuse the outcome or the battle descriptions the sheer lore innacuracies made it obvious that the author had not researched the Tau at all beyond looking at the catalog of units on gameworkshop's website.
Are you sure McNeill hasn't researched them?
Hint:
Codex Tau, release 2001, first page Impressum:
- Authors / desigm team: Andy Chambers, Pete Haines & Graham McNeill
WD, October 2001, Tau release. Article of the design teams thought process. ( page 18 ).
Culture and language
.... Graham McNeill wrote a lot of fictional text about the Tau , where he ....
Maybe a view upon a faction depends on the time and person, but to go so far to call one of the design team "uneducated" on a faction?
Index xenos of this old WD should be part of the ressources of Tau background. If you are able to deal with changes.
Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
Kroothawk wrote: Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
Kroothawk wrote: Talking about changes: In 5 weeks a new Tau Codex is rumoured to come, in 4 weeks a new Tau novel. Everything from "now another genocide-happy race" to "immune to Chaos and best buddies with Space Marines" is possible, we will see.
5 weeks? really?
If it's six or more we get to take his rumor posting rights.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: In my opinion the IA : 3 Taros campaign is the most comprehensive example of Tau military behavior and reactions, and has a nice realistic feel to the battles, its shame as usual though its mainly from the imperial perspective, but does show some of the better side of the Tau, and their support and backing of allied forces, a good read.
The Taros Campaign is absolute rubbish. Literally every aspect of it is contrived to stack the cards in the Tau's favor, without regards to even trying to make sense or fit with the canon statistics of the various hardware (like markerlights outranging leman russes, and seeker missiles being a reliable way of fighting russes), and one particularly galling instance where an armored column forgets that it's made of tanks mid-paragraph.
Keep in mind that many people hate Tau and think they don't belong into the grimdark 40k setting. So some people call them Nazis, Commies or whatever they hate most. You will also find many made up statements presented as facts there that crumble under closer scrutiny. You have been warned
It's not so much that people hate Tau as that them being magical mary-sues with magical mary-sue technology isn't born out by the fluff. If it were, then they'd be galling and intolerable. As it is the most annoying thing about Tau are the people who tout their spin as being the truth of their fluff. Even with the Imperium, only some of the propaganda is true (like the Emperor literally being a god by the setting's definition of gods), and with the Tau, the details and numbers don't bear out the spin (and if the new codex changes that, go ahead and pray the change makes the official lines more like the details and not the other way around, because see above about the whole mary-sue thing).
Honestly, looking at their fluff in comparison to their official themes or taglines, I can't help but feel they're just one big secret joke: they're not friendly, while proclaiming as vigorously as possible they are, they're entirely ignorant of the setting they inhabit, while purporting to champion reason and discovery, and their tech is primitive and unwieldy beside that of any faction but orks, but they're described as being more advanced because everything they make is pointlessly flashy and overengineered.
The idea of a technologically advanced civilization that fights intelligently is good enough, but 40k already has the Eldar and the IG, so the Tau seem quite redundant as far as the setting is concerned. What's worst is that they, in many respects, seem to occupy almost the same niche that the AdMech should, and so form a rather galling barrier to a far larger and more interesting faction's entrance onto the tabletop.
oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
It's not so much that people hate Tau as that them being magical mary-sues with magical mary-sue technology isn't born out by the fluff. If it were, then they'd be galling and intolerable. As it is the most annoying thing about Tau are the people who tout their spin as being the truth of their fluff. Even with the Imperium, only some of the propaganda is true (like the Emperor literally being a god by the setting's definition of gods), and with the Tau, the details and numbers don't bear out the spin (and if the new codex changes that, go ahead and pray the change makes the official lines more like the details and not the other way around, because see above about the whole mary-sue thing).
Honestly, looking at their fluff in comparison to their official themes or taglines, I can't help but feel they're just one big secret joke: they're not friendly, while proclaiming as vigorously as possible they are, they're entirely ignorant of the setting they inhabit, while purporting to champion reason and discovery, and their tech is primitive and unwieldy beside that of any faction but orks, but they're described as being more advanced because everything they make is pointlessly flashy and overengineered.
Tau? Mary sues? Seriously? Because FW are commonly going on rampages in the fluff and single squads will overthrow entire planets.
It's mentioned nearly every where in the codex that the Tau will be crushed if any faction were to focus on them. They survive because they're viewed as a waste of time and nobody wants to commit the resources when there is a hive fleet next door. That's not Mary sue.
I also don't see how their tech is primitive and unwieldy. Their main rifle is far better than the standard lasgun and even the elite space marine bolter. For a primitive race their Mantas and Tigersharks seem to adept at taking down Imperial titans. It may not be what was available before the turn from technology, but it's not really primitive in the setting. And what other races do they compete with? I wouldn't expect them to be as technologically advanced as ancient skeletal robots that have had far longer to advance, same would go for the Eldar.
The most confusing part is the "Ignorant of the setting they inhabit" They don't break the 4th wall? That's weird? Or perhaps you meant that they don't fall to the grim darkness of the grim dark future. Isn't that part of their story? They're trying to expand and make the galaxy a better place by organizing it under Tau principles? I think that's fine because it's contrasted by the shear improbability of their success. The entire galaxy is a living nightmare and they still continue planning their expansion.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
The issue being the Taros Campaign is a rulebook of sorts, and is one the most gratuitous examples of inconsistency and terrible writing. The only thing it has over Ward's garbage is its grasp of English.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: oh my gosh! GW fluff and descriptions not matching the tabletop stats...stop the presses this is a first in the history of the company and its affiliates.
The issue being the Taros Campaign is a rulebook of sorts, and is one the most gratuitous examples of inconsistency and terrible writing. The only thing it has over Ward's garbage is its grasp of English.
Non of the descriptions effect the rules of the game..no where does the book allow markerlights to out range battlecannons (other than a flavor text) your comparisons are your opinions and fine you hate the book, move on..its your opinion.
If you dislike Tau and its fluff fine, its your right to, but it still is a mystery why persons (such as yourself) feel a need to enter threads concerning a topic that you have no real interest in ( other than dislike) and spout about your said dislike, it adds nothing other than conflict to a discussion, and usually derails it from its OP's intended goal.
There are many parts of the 40k universe I dislike , but feel no urge to go into those threads and berate or attack them, I just comment on what I am intersted in and avoid those I am not.
Unless it just brings you joy to expouse how much you hate something, in which case I honestly feel sorry for you.
This kind of reactions here on Dakka is precisely what Kroothawk was warning the OP about.
Savageconvoy wrote: Tau? Mary sues? Seriously? Because
FW are commonly going on rampages in the fluff and single squads will overthrow entire planets.
It's mentioned nearly every where in the codex that the Tau will be crushed if any faction were to focus on them. They survive because they're viewed as a waste of time and nobody wants to commit the resources when there is a hive fleet next door. That's not Mary sue.
Did I not say, specifically, that they're not Mary-Sues? If their taglines and spin were representative of their fluff, they would be, and the image of them as touted by their fans is entirely Mary-Sue, but the fluff is rather at odds with these things.
I also don't see how their tech is primitive and unwieldy. Their main rifle is far better than the standard lasgun and even the elite space marine bolter. For a primitive race their Mantas and Tigersharks seem to adept at taking down Imperial titans. It may not be what was available before the turn from technology, but it's not really primitive in the setting. And what other races do they compete with? I wouldn't expect them to be as technologically advanced as ancient skeletal robots that have had far longer to advance, same would go for the Eldar.
The lasgun is the perfect mass infantry weapon, being cheap, ridiculously reliable, and logistically trivial. How does a pulse rifle line up with that? How long can a group of fire warriors operate with absolutely no resupply or support? Considering the pulse rifle is just an oversized and underpowered plasma gun, I can't imagine it's too easy on its ammo, or too reliable in long service. Battlesuits are just crude, bulky power armor with more primitive control systems. And so on.
The most confusing part is the "Ignorant of the setting they inhabit" They don't break the 4th wall? That's weird? Or perhaps you meant that they don't fall to the grim darkness of the grim dark future. Isn't that part of their story? They're trying to expand and make the galaxy a better place by organizing it under Tau principles? I think that's fine because it's contrasted by the shear improbability of their success. The entire galaxy is a living nightmare and they still continue planning their expansion.
They're Flat Earth Atheists. They're completely unaware of the nature of their world, disbelieving in war entities and psyker, and being hopelessly niave in dealing with other sapient species.
If you dislike Tau and its fluff fine, its your right to, but it still is a mystery why persons (such as yourself) feel a need to enter threads concerning a topic that you have no real interest in ( other than dislike) and spout about your said dislike, it adds nothing other than conflict to a discussion, and usually derails it from its OP's intended goal.
There are many parts of the 40k universe I dislike , but feel no urge to go into those threads and berate or attack them, I just comment on what I am intersted in and avoid those I am not.
Unless it just brings you joy to expouse how much you hate something, in which case I honestly feel sorry for you.
This kind of reactions here on Dakka is precisely what Kroothawk was warning the OP about.
You know, I could have sworn I refuted that silly "people just hate Tau" thing. In fact, I could swear it was dead in the middle of my first post in the thread...
The Tau, as they are, are just fine. What's not is painting them as the Mary-Sues their spin would have them be.
And what poster has painted them as a mary-sue ( dear god that term is overused here ), or was this something from another thread or Dakka wide, or in the depths of the internet.
Any fan of something can become guilty of doing the above when talking about something they enjoy..it happens.
And as to your comparison of lasgun to pulse rifle, the IG and Tau fight war is different ways, IG throw lives away the same as ammo, and have a raise a regiment , forget about it until folding it into another regiment response to logistics (due to the overwhelming size of the IoM.
The Tau fight a fluid doctrine with a empasis on conserving their forces so long sustained attrition is not in their combat style (more of a modern concept)
Is ether better, no and yes, depends on the battlefield, empire and situation.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And what poster has painted them as a mary-sue ( dear god that term is overused here ), or was this something from another thread or Dakka wide, or in the depths of the internet.
It was more a refutation of kroothawk's warning about anti-Tau sentiment. People don't have a problem with the Tau overall, it's the extremely Mary-Sue faction taglines or spin (I'm getting annoyed that I have to keep repeating those words, but I can't think of a better term for the "officially stated theme" and related bits) being taken at their word, without regard to the fluff proper. Of course, this whole line of discussion is rather off topic, I just found the warning about Tau-haters a bit too galling to let stand uncontested.
And as to your comparison of lasgun to pulse rifle, the IG and Tau fight war is different ways, IG throw lives away the same as ammo, and have a raise a regiment , forget about it until folding it into another regiment response to logistics (due to the overwhelming size of the IoM.
The Tau fight a fluid doctrine with a empasis on conserving their forces so long sustained attrition is not in their combat style (more of a modern concept)
Is ether better, no and yes, depends on the battlefield, empire and situation.
The point was that, technically speaking, the lasgun is the more sophisticated piece of engineering, not that pulse rifles aren't appropriate to any situation. The Tau's needs in a combat situation are far different than the Imperium's, so the Tau's fielding of large numbers of pricier gear, that's somewhat bulkier and less resilient than its Imperial counterparts, shouldn't be taken as a matter of being more advanced, only less pressed for massive quantities of gear and with shorter supply lines.
You make a great deal of assumptions on the Tau economy, we have no idea how much it takes in resources of the Tau empire to build a pulse rifle, battlesuit or pair of trousers, comparisons of scale are only valid when facts are known , and GW releases no hard facts just suposition.
On another site it was advanced that the tau firewarrior backpack has two slots for the recharging of the pulse rifles energy cells, since it kinda looked that way on the model, no fluff to support just a speculation, and frankly is as valid as any discussion on how much it cost to build a imaginary weapon by a imaginary space race.
Technically speaking (and only citing game stats since its the only ruler for comparison we have in this case) a pulse rifle out ranges, out powers and out penetrates a lasgun (by all stats) and is a standard weapon in their military, the laws of logistics are irrelevant in saying something
is more advanced tech-wise, but is relevant when deciding what is a better peice of kit for a OP.
And as to robustness and bulk, its long and slim, and the las rifle is blocky and medium length, the models likely do not give proper dimesions, since all GW minis make the weapons really out of scale, for the rule of cool, likely the pulse carbine is the Tau CQB weapon of coice when the battle gets tight.
for all we know of the Tau economy all its goods could be churned out of a drone ran factory at a prodigious rate, its only the lack of Tau to fill boots that limits their battlefield footprint, again we have no facts, other than game stats in this regard.
How are the Tau Mary Sues? They are a race of short lived, focused people. They didn't have the same issues that stunted humanities development and advanced quickly compared to other races.
Now a Mary Sue would be someone that's the best of the best becoming a Space Marine, and not just any Space Marine. A Grey Knight! Then managing to run a one man war against deamonic forces from inside the warp.
I don't think you understand what the term Mary Sue means.
I understand his point Savageconvoy, its not that he is saying the fluff makes them mary-sues, it that he feels FANS of the tau interpert the fluff in mary-suness (dont even know if thats a word ) ways, and this is the reason for negative tau reponses.
He just stated it in his post in a way that was not to clear.
Ok. Going back, I see that I misread it. Though I don't really see that side either. I haven't seen many Tau players or fans assume that the Tau could win by any other means of holding up and waiting for the rest of the galaxy to kill itself.
There has been a few , and when I find them I am quick to reign in the misguided enthusiasim
I started playing the Tau due to my dislike of CC in 40k just got tired of all the melee, so I wanted to do a primary shooting army with a glaring weakness, and over time come to enjoy the fluff as well (I have been in this hobby along time) and was kinda weary of the constant grimdarkness of everything else, kinda wanted a change of water but still stay in the pool so to speak.
And it kept me interested in the game, made me work on Orks and IG and even some marines, so it was a good thing.
But there are some posters on here that will eventually show up in any tau related thread regardless of content, and have to cause trouble, and its fine when maybe its a thread comparing 2 groups or saying such and such is the greatest, but it will happen even in threads were tau only subjects are discussed, just seems pointless and juvenile, and saps alot of the energy from what is mostly a creative hobby.
TheKoop wrote: and they're frankly under powered in the game itself.
LOL, I can't control myself, sorry. Tau aren't UP, they are UR, if not OP. Try half a dozen Fire Warrior squads and Broadsides and you will see how powerful they are. Fire Warriors can obliterate anything with the assistance of a few markerlights, the high strength of their pulse rifles ensuring a few kills.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: You make a great deal of assumptions on the Tau economy, we have no idea how much it takes in resources of the Tau empire to build a pulse rifle, battlesuit or pair of trousers, comparisons of scale are only valid when facts are known , and GW releases no hard facts just suposition.
On another site it was advanced that the tau firewarrior backpack has two slots for the recharging of the pulse rifles energy cells, since it kinda looked that way on the model, no fluff to support just a speculation, and frankly is as valid as any discussion on how much it cost to build a imaginary weapon by a imaginary space race.
Technically speaking (and only citing game stats since its the only ruler for comparison we have in this case) a pulse rifle out ranges, out powers and out penetrates a lasgun (by all stats) and is a standard weapon in their military, the laws of logistics are irrelevant in saying something
is more advanced tech-wise, but is relevant when deciding what is a better peice of kit for a OP.
And as to robustness and bulk, its long and slim, and the las rifle is blocky and medium length, the models likely do not give proper dimesions, since all GW minis make the weapons really out of scale, for the rule of cool, likely the pulse carbine is the Tau CQB weapon of coice when the battle gets tight.
for all we know of the Tau economy all its goods could be churned out of a drone ran factory at a prodigious rate, its only the lack of Tau to fill boots that limits their battlefield footprint, again we have no facts, other than game stats in this regard.
I've seen the size comparison backed up by thorough analysis of given statistics and stats from the Deathwatch RPG a very long time ago, but I don't have the numbers handy.
It just occurred to me that the Tau seem roughly parallel to the earliest human expansion, before the golden age. That would actually be a quite interesting angle for them: primitive but rapidly expanding/changing technology versus the reconstructed remnants of what was basically Sufficiently Advanced Technology . Instead ofr just painting them as wonderful and special prodigies who are just so much better that they went from stone age hunter-gatherers to more advanced and savvy than an Empire that's had more than twice as long as they've even had pointy sticks to refine and improve upon their technology (note that the AdMech actually does this, just with considerable caution and all the difficulty that trying to improve upon something that was already nearly perfect for its role) and way of waging war.
Deathwatch RPG also states that the Tau have developed a cure for genestealer taint (that does not kill the recipient) so that series of books is very loose and fast with 40k established facts, take that as it will.
Maybe they did find a relic of advanced tech to start their grope for the stars, maybe they did not, they are not humans so applying human technological advance history is also a flawed approach.
Maybe they are just a focused bright race that advances quickly, not everything in the galaxy obeys the same rules (See : ORK ), be that as it may in the scope of the game its irelavent since it will never be 41k, so yes the Tau advanced futher faster than humans in their history relative to time (4,000 years) so what!
It is just another patch in 40ks universal quilt of weirdness.
Or for all you IoM fanatics out there its a abject lesson in why you gotta wipe out all the little xenos you find when you find them, cause you never know....
LOL, I can't control myself, sorry. Tau aren't UP, they are UR, if not OP. Try half a dozen Fire Warrior squads and Broadsides and you will see how powerful they are. Fire Warriors can obliterate anything with the assistance of a few markerlights, the high strength of their pulse rifles ensuring a few kills.
It's a shame too, because they are so poorly translated onto the table top. In Rogue Trader the rpg my favorite weapon was the Pulse Rifle just due to it's incredible range and it hit as hard as a heavy weapon without any drawbacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Or for all you IoM fanatics out there its a abject lesson in why you gotta wipe out all the little xenos you find when you find them, cause you never know....
Especially with the rumor that the Tau Empire is joining up with many alien races the IoM fought against and are posing a serious threat. Wouldn't be a fluff change nearly as large as the Necrons and very fitting I think.
To sum up a dozen pages of arguments about FW, they're junk on the table top. Bringing more junk doesn't fix that. To sum up a dozen pages of arguments about FW, they're junk on the table top. Bringing more junk doesn't fix that.
FW are definitely not junk. Especially against Orks, Imperial Guard and Tryanids their guns obliterate everything. The high strength and the fact that they are ignoring armour saves added to the incredible range is not something to be sniffed at.
Bringing more junk doesn't fix that.
People bring lots of Guardsman don't they? They bring lots of Ork Boyz, they bring lots of gaunts as well. Please tell me how having more of them doesn't change how bad they are.
FW are definitely not junk. Especially against Orks, Imperial Guard and Tryanids their guns obliterate everything. The high strength and the fact that they are ignoring armour saves added to the incredible range is not something to be sniffed at.
So against 3/15 armies that aren't even the standard they're good? Check out the thread I linked, plenty of numbers tossed out to show that they are quite weak for troops. And 30" is not an incredible range. Not when they shoot 30", enemy moves up to 24" and are now in their range to return fire.
People bring lots of Guardsman don't they? They bring lots of Ork Boyz, they bring lots of gaunts as well. Please tell me how having more of them doesn't change how bad they are.
Again, check out the thread. Basically IG and Ork Boyz are cheaper and tougher due to higher numbers and better leadership. Tau only manage to have a higher strength basic gun, but lose out on special and heavy weapons.
Having more FW basically just means you're using more points that could be spent on "not Firewarriors"
Back on topic: The rumor mill has been rather silent about what direction Tau fluff will go. I really hope that we will see some actual answers about Tau as opposed to the standard "Vespid have a communicator helmet.... or is it I mind control helmet. I don't know... I'm just asking questions" attitude.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote: there is probably nothing wrong with how fluff and Tau are represented there,( PS2 game) right?
Here's what's wrong with how the Tau are represented in that game:
Space Marines sneaking up on an Ethereal? Horribly unlikely.
An Ethereal traipsing about with naught but a couple Firewarriors guarding him? Unlikely, though maybe not impossible.
Firewarriors' slack-jawed reaction to an attack, without getting a single shot off? These guys are military trained their entire lives...
Firewarriors dying from a single bolter round to the chest? Their armor stops bolter rounds, and they got shot right where it would be thickest...
And that's just the opening cinematic.
Bolters being superior to Pulse Rifles? Now we all know that's nonsense.
On the other hand, FWs don't have rechargeable personal shields like the Master Chief and Medipacks aren't magic life savers.
But if we're talking about games that give horrifically unlikely portrayals of the protagonist, Firewarrior game has got nothing on the Space Marine game...
To sum up a dozen pages of arguments about FW, they're junk on the table top. Bringing more junk doesn't fix that.
To sum up a dozen pages of arguments about FW, they're junk on the table top. Bringing more junk doesn't fix that.
FW are definitely not junk. Especially against Orks, Imperial Guard and Tryanids their guns obliterate everything. The high strength and the fact that they are ignoring armour saves added to the incredible range is not something to be sniffed at.
Firewarriors are about as killy as boltermarines. Of course, they also die like flies ( bad for a rather expensive troopchoice ) and fold in melee to anything but grots.
This basicaly means that Firewarriors, unlike Guardsmen ( which are at least cheap and can therefore adequately fulfill their role as a troopchoice ) do in fact suck.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The point was that, technically speaking, the lasgun is the more sophisticated piece of engineering
What an odd thing to say considering we have the technology for a lasgun right now, whereas the technology for something like the pulse rifle is far beyond modern tech. It operates on similar principal to a Railgun, with ammo approaching a velocity near the speed of light, only the ferromagnetic bullet somehow maintains a charge of plasma around it. The pulse rifle is powered by a rechargeable battery. Two replacement batteries are indeed in the charger on the FWs pack. The ammo clip (which is quite small and easily carried in quantity.) holds up to 400 rounds, and bear in mind, the pulse rifle fires at 1/3 the rate of a bolter, (yet still does more damage.)
Here's my source btw: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_Rifle
not that pulse rifles aren't appropriate to any situation. The Tau's needs in a combat situation are far different than the Imperium's,
Not really. They just have a far better gun.
Fun fact: The Pulse Rifle is actually lighter and better balanced than the lasgun. (Source: the Fire Warrior game. I know, I know, say what you will about a FW killing marines, but GW itself oversaw the 40k fluff aspect of the game.)
so the Tau's fielding of large numbers of pricier gear, that's somewhat bulkier and less resilient than its Imperial counterparts, shouldn't be taken as a matter of being more advanced, only less pressed for massive quantities of gear and with shorter supply lines.
You just made that up. Pulse Rifles are and will continue to be produced 'en' as much 'masse' as is needed.
Think of the Earth Caste as the AdMech, (only without being held back by hokey superstitions and other hoodoo nonsense.)
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: On another site it was advanced that the tau firewarrior backpack has two slots for the recharging of the pulse rifles energy cells, since it kinda looked that way on the model, no fluff to support just a speculation, and frankly is as valid as any discussion on how much it cost to build a imaginary weapon by a imaginary space race.
It is indeed true. See my link above, second paragraph under 'Operation'
Yes those sources are trustworthy but the article is making extrapolations not referenced in said sources. Notice how there's no citation, the wiki is paraphrasing at best and putting the authors own interpretation in.
Hey guys! Sorry I dropped out of the conversation, but I am just so stoked by the new Tau remake, new codex and units! How do you guys think this will affect the lore? Has anyone read the two Tau centered novels yet?
6.) Deathwatch RPG books: Tau and their human allies are one of the enemies of the player characters. Controversial about how canonical the information is, given that it is written by FFG, that Tau are the foe, that the sector is isolated and human dominated.
As Lynata loves to continually irritatinly point out, 40k has no canon system.
Anyway, here is what i have to say about this:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: I voted for "Rulebook + Codexes + Black Library + FFG + DOW, etc" cause it and "Everything... yet nothing" are the same.
Anyway I will put this to you, the 6th edition rulebook has this on the galaxy map:
As you can see, the galaxy map has the Calixis sector on it. Calixis sector was created by FFG(actually Black Industries). FFG features the Blood Ravens and Red Scorpion in their Deathwatch rpg. They will also feature the Tanith First and Only in their Only War rpg.
The Different FFG settings are all linked together. Blood Ravens are from the DOW games. Red Scorpions are from FW. Tanith first and only are from BL.
So ergo, All FFG material, FW, DOW and BL are canon.
The only thing I have an exception in not taking is the crap written by Goto. I will accept it, with reluctance! I believe in taking the video game fluff as was shown in the video games over the novels written by Goto for the video games.
Anyway, new fluff takes precedence and even retcons older fluff.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Only going to say this once, keep your suggestions as to what other people should do, to yourself.
And as to recomending a computer game for Lore on a tabletop game is kinda stupid, since the only thing these games truly have in common is names and images, endings, background and all are created by different companies for differing needs, but hey think and believe what you want, the OP wanted sources and thats what we provided, you on the other hand are a troll.
Good day.
See above.
Savageconvoy wrote: How are the Tau Mary Sues? They are a race of short lived, focused people. They didn't have the same issues that stunted humanities development and advanced quickly compared to other races.
Now a Mary Sue would be someone that's the best of the best becoming a Space Marine, and not just any Space Marine. A Grey Knight! Then managing to run a one man war against deamonic forces from inside the warp.
I don't think you understand what the term Mary Sue means.
So what if they have short lives? That doesn't affect them negatively at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have to ask, do you Tau players really, seriously need to know the Tau alphabet and crap?
Are the Tau the new Mandalorians or Klingons here?
TheKoop wrote: Has anyone read the two Tau centered novels yet?
Apparently they're just another two Imperial-centric stories slapped with Tau titles. Althought the Shadowsun novella is supposed to actually focus on the Tau, I hear.
Just wanted to say, that the new Tau Codex is a very fine read for anyone interested in Tau lore. Everything is expanded, and in a respectful way.
On the novels: The Greater Good is a waste. Half through with Fire Caste: Nice read, but so far almost purely IG, even then more Tau appearance than in Greater Good.
Kroothawk wrote: Just wanted to say, that the new Tau Codex is a very fine read for anyone interested in Tau lore. Everything is expanded, and in a respectful way.
He hints at the age of O'Shovah for example and tells us to find the subtle things in the dex.
If you really need to know now:
Spoiler:
two options to live beyond the expected:
Either the stasis tech the Tau have now to keep their Heros alive and save the Troops from withering before they reach their target, or the chance there is more than one 'o'shovah'. But the Tau Empire lost contact to this enclave and drones return damaged...
The first two pages of the codex are:
Spoiler:
a pic of Eldar vs Tau.
Looking forward to the activity of the background forums when people had time to read the dex. I'd suggest to take your time. Its easy to miss a few things.
I was concerned they were going to significantly increase the relative fluff power of the Tau, but it seems my fears were unfounded.
They're still a tiny speck, requiring several level of zoom to see with no FTL capacity equivalent to other races, and almost completely ignorant of the true scale of the Imperium.
What's odd though is there's no explanation for the Marine-Tau Battlebrother alliance capacity; we were hearing rumours of rediscovered information indicating the Tau were identified by the Big E back in the day, and the Ultramarines would become involved in trying to keep the Tau alive, to be used against the forces of Chaos due to their immunity to corruption, but there's no evidence of that anywhere that I saw. By all accounts, the codex paints the Imperium and Tau as more antagonistic than ever, with higher Imperial authorities starting to take notice of this upstart race, and planning for their destruction.
What's odd though is there's no explanation for the Marine-Tau Battlebrother alliance capacity; we were hearing rumours of rediscovered information indicating the Tau were identified by the Big E back in the day, and the Ultramarines would become involved in trying to keep the Tau alive, to be used against the forces of Chaos due to their immunity to corruption, but there's no evidence of that anywhere that I saw. By all accounts, the codex paints the Imperium and Tau as more antagonistic than ever, with higher Imperial authorities starting to take notice of this upstart race, and planning for their destruction.
Thank god. That makes no sense from a fluff perspective and having the Tau some miracle race of the Emperor under the protection of the mary-stu Ultramarines was frustrating. I am happy it's just a gameplay-only mechanic
In any regard, after reading through the fluff, Vehtock handles fluff a lot better then Ward. He was able to add new stuff (Great War of Confederation, stasis tech, backstories for Aun'va, much greater detail of the Spheres of Expansion) in a way that didn't make the Tau lose their identity (Necrons) or come off as ridiculous (Space Marines).
Though it's unfortunate the Demirug aren't mentioned once. I think GW wanted to erase them from the lore. Lots of new races are talked about: Nagi, Greet, Anthrazods, Branchyura, Formosians.
My one criticism is the Japanese theme comes off really, really thick at times.
Darkstrider's name is Myamoto, after Miyamoto Musashi, famous early 17th century Samurai.
The Fire Caste has a "Way of the Warrior," which is the literal translation of Bushido.
There's constant references to a "Rising Sun," which is a term commonly associated with the Empire of Japan, and the collectors edition basically has the Japanese flag on the front.
It's a wee bit thick at times, but the Tau remain distinct enough to not just be "Space Japanese," but sometimes I prefer my references a little less...overt.
Harriticus wrote: Though it's unfortunate the Demirug aren't mentioned once. I think GW wanted to erase them from the lore. Lots of new races are talked about: Nagi, Greet, Anthrazods, Branchyura, Formosians.
Remember, in 40k lack of a mention does not mean they don't exist. I see this as simply the new races who make up the Tau Empire rather than as a list of all the races they contacted.
1hadhq wrote: WD / design studio / vetock / background.
The first two pages of the codex are:
Spoiler:
a pic of Eldar vs Tau.
Why was this spoilered as it doesn't seem that big a deal? Do you mean artwork of Eldar vs. Tau or do you mean miniatures of Eldar vs. Tau? Don't suppose this picture is floating around anywhere if it is artwork?
Shlazaor wrote:For those of you who have read the new dex what do you think is the most interesting tidbit of new lore to you personally?
Basically almost every part of the background is extended. GW makes almost explicit statements on several open questions, so that they are now neither "peace-loving hippies" nor "Space Nazis with a better PR":
1.) There is no "pheromones did it" situation anymore. The theory is mentioned but also stated that Inquisition found no evidence either way. Ethereals ending the Mont'au is described more realistically.
2.) The time paradox of Farsight and Shadowsun is resolved logically.
3.) It is now rather explicit how planets join the Empire. Not always peacefully. Material for heated discussions.
4.) New Xeno races are introduced to the background.
5.) Tau not using meatshields and honouring minimized casualties on their side is stressed several times.
6.) Basically no further advance in timeline or expansion, they are still "big fish in a small pond".
AtoMaki wrote:Shadowsun was pretty much mindraped by the Space Pope to hate Farsight. That was pretty neat!
Nonsense, they were bitter rivals even before Farsight defected.
Nonsense, they were bitter rivals even before Farsight defected.
Actually, their rivalry never went too far. It was like "Farsight is inferior, Shadowsun is superior" and she got the "blast his statue apart" thing after the Space Pope Treatment. For example, their combined attack won the Democles Gulf Crusade for the Tau. It is a sad thing really, as Shadowsun is pretty much portrayed as a mere puppet of Aun'Va. What is actually pretty cool, because of the all-new "grim bright" feel the Tau has.
Oh and another favorite thing: the Tau way to assimilate civilizations. Like, it wouldn't work in any other sci-fi setting, but luckily for them, the Warhammer 40k universe is a perfect ground for it .
1hadhq wrote: WD / design studio / vetock / background.
The first two pages of the codex are:
Spoiler:
a pic of Eldar vs Tau.
Why was this spoilered as it doesn't seem that big a deal? Do you mean artwork of Eldar vs. Tau or do you mean miniatures of Eldar vs. Tau? Don't suppose this picture is floating around anywhere if it is artwork?
Yes artwork, like every 6th ed codex starts with. Just a hint I've looked at the real codex , since the post was made early on when many people won't have it themselves.
Plus, Tau razed a maiden world. Maybe a mistake as they chased some Eldarish-looking raiders but still not making friends that way.
I'd prefer to wait, but IMO an intersting find is the entry of Aun'Wei. The space pope before Aun'Va.
It's strange that after reading the new fluff, the Tau come off as the most identifiable and grounded faction in the game. I relate to them more then humanity. They just seem like something that could really exist I suppose.
@MajorStoffer: Re the Japanese references: don't forget the Puretide AI is kept on Mount Kan'ji...
@Kroothawk: it is true that there is no 100% firm timeline progression in the Codex, however, I do like the way that, unlike other factions, there is at least a nod to their likely future. I'm specifically talking about page 30: within 50 Earth years the number of planets held by the Tau is predicted to double. That's some impressive growth. And when you consider that as of the current point in the timeline the Imperium still has much bigger things to worry about than the Tau...well, just think it's a shame that GW don't seem too fussed about taking us into the 42nd Millennium as the Tau would surely be a much bigger presence.
I particularly enjoyed the information on the non-military castes, especially the frequent references to the role the Earth Caste play in developing all these fancy new bits of kit like the Riptide. Stuff that happens off the battlefield isn't exactly common in Codices so I consider anything of that nature a bonus.
I have to read through the Codex again.
But ATM the only WFT Bloodtide moment for me was one small tidbit on earth caste:
Spoiler:
They accidentally create a super nove while trying to create an energy source. Then they experiment using that super novas as weapons to destroy planetary systems. Doesn't fit Tau mentality at all IMHO.
I also was shocked by the tidbit where a Riptide emerges completely unscathed after taking a volley of IG Deathstrike missiles. Nova shield or not, the fluff went overboard on that one.
curran12 wrote: I may have missed it, but there wasn't a single wholesale slaughter of Sisters of Battle in the whole codex?! What?!
"No Eldar Avatar was harmed during the production of this Codex!" Vetock actually had to say something about Tau background, no need to fill it with He-Man nonsense.
Harriticus wrote: I also was shocked by the tidbit where a Riptide emerges completely unscathed after taking a volley of IG Deathstrike missiles. Nova shield or not, the fluff went overboard on that one.
It's OTT, but I don't think it's too bad...remember that in the battle there were 20 Cadres with one Riptide in each. The way the fluff is written implies that when the missiles hit the Tau lines one Riptide was the only survivor. Now the very next paragraph is talking about Riptiudes plural, so obviously some were out of harm's way, but I think it's ambiguous as to whether any were destroyed by the missiles. So, pretty insane durability nevertheless, but they might have lost a few that day.
Deathstrikes, in the fluff, kind of are the "End of All Things," too bad they aren't that killy in the game. I'd like a one-shot nuke for my Guard please.
The whole "Tau and Space Marine best buddies" thing was kind of explained. It is said that after the Damocles Crusade, out of all of the Imperial Factions, only the Space marines came to respect the Tau as honorable and worthy adversaries.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: The whole "Tau and Space Marine best buddies" thing was kind of explained. It is said that after the Damocles Crusade, out of all of the Imperial Factions, only the Space marines came to respect the Tau as honorable and worthy adversaries.
"I like fighting you" is not quite the same as "Together, we shall vanquish this blighted foe from the galaxy, and then go back to my place for beer and pretzels."
Samurai_Eduh wrote: The whole "Tau and Space Marine best buddies" thing was kind of explained. It is said that after the Damocles Crusade, out of all of the Imperial Factions, only the Space marines came to respect the Tau as honorable and worthy adversaries.
Which is a very weak attempt on GW's part to explain it. Because respecting your adversary is not even close to "Battle Brothers" status. Remember, we're meant to expect that the Space Marines and Tau are closer then Space Wolves and Dark Angels.
I've long since resigned the Allies matrix to a gameplay-only mechanic. Lot of stuff goes down on the tabletop that doesn't in fluff, and Tau and Marines between as close as Guard/Marines is one of them.
Well I have just aquired LE and I must say that I am impressed with the artwork of the book itself, it is epic ( love how GW decided to do all the pictures in color with every new 6 edition codex ).
As for the fluff I will post most notable things I read so far:
Spoiler:
-Tau diplomacy work for years or decades, and it usually goes with Ethereals offering huge reward to planetary rulers to persuade them to join the Tau. If they refuse Ethereals get more harsh and demanding and in the end they send Fire Cast to take you down.
-Tau skin can be dark blue or light blue depending on the planet's distance to the Star ( like white and black skinned Humans ). It also varies in castes themselves with Fire Caste being the darkest and Air Caste the palest.
-Earth Caste is the biggest one.
-Air Caste had wings before the Tau became spaceworthy race.
-There is mention of Adeptus Mechanicus expedition in M35 but there is no mention of Warp Storm at all. The closest thing to it is the mention of "strange lights" which can be anything .
-As Kroothawk said there is no mention of "pheromones" or mind control but there is hint about something interesting with the Etherials. The story goes like this: when Tau were on edge of annihilation because of their civil war "many strange lights were seeing in the sky" and all Tau expected that to be the end of their race. But instead, the mysterious Etherials "just pop up" in various camps and cities, guard never noticing them passed near them - they were just there. And in just one night they were able to set a deal and end hostility of a fight that was lasted for five seasons just liek that. I don't know abotu you but if Giovanni was reading this he would say:
But this is cool, it supports a lot of theory and helps in creating a new ones.
-It seems that Tau were naive from the very beginning, first sending colonists to build before they expected planet for dangerous predators. After they suffered casualties ( it's said "many" so I am not sure if this apply to heavy ) they called for the Fire Caste to hunt them all down. Later they adopted a strategy: send FIre Cast to exterminate all dangerous wild life and then colonize.
-Tau are constantly hostile to Hrud, Orks, Arachen, Reek.
-And this is the "dark side" of the Tau: if you refuse to negotiate with them they gave you ultimatums, if you refuse that they bomb the hell out of your industry military and jam most of your communications. If you still refuse they send Fire Cast to wage a war of annihilation.
-Tau are again naive, they tried many times to talk with the Orks when they discovered them and in the end they finally gave up. They encountered Orks after they colonized their first major planet ( Tau'n ) and Orks were all around them. The Ethereals declared that Grater Good would be better off without them so in Tau practise every time you see Ork shoot him ( I am looking at you alliance chart ). Or kreally loved to troll the Tau in the beginning with long escalated conflicts.
-Fire Caste warriors from Bork'an are outfitted with the latest advances in weapons, meaning that they are probably best equipped of all Fire Warriors in the Empire.
-I so lol'd at this: when Tau helped Kroot to defeat the Orks Kroot leader swore allegiance to the Tau and pledged his warriors to fight for the Greater Good and regular payment
-This is also interesting: Tau have a council to led them. Ranking officials of every Caste, overwatched by Ethereals who are pressing them to work and to contribute ( we need someone like them in our modern Governments )
-Tau developed AI somewhere after 1'st phase expansion.
-Tau Second Phase of Expansion ended when they encountered the Imperium.
-Au'tall is Tau Valhalla. Pension planet for honorable heroes of the Fire Cast.
-N'Dras is a planet that was abandoned for no reason, and only the Ethereals know why ( maybe Necrons? ).
-Ke'Lshan are less trustworthy to aliens of all the Tau.
-T'olku have large Ethereal Tempes. Tau own version of the Ecclesiarchy?
-Democles Crusade was mentioned, however it's goal was not the crush the Tau completely but rather to drive them out of Damocles custer, in which they succeed. Damocles Crusade forces were mentioned as 19 Regiments and 5 Chapters ( undermanned of course, likely a company from each or less than that ). Damocles Crusade ended when Tau reinforcements arrived and drive the Imperials back, it was not because of the Tyranids. Tau had the chance to destroy them but halted and staged a peace treaty on Ethereal orders.
-Tau were impressed by Warp Engines but failed to understand or start them. And captured Humans trolled them by saying that they "pray and chant to them to work"
-Imperium stance is "another alien race to be exterminated" but many feared of Tau because they remind them of Humans when they were in Age of Technology. Suffice it to say they are afraid of another Age of Strife happening in the galaxy, this time with Tau.
-Story behind Farsight is also expanded and strange, they encountered "mysterious enemy" while fighting orks on artifact world Arthas Moloch. This mysterious enemy killed all Ethereals and after that disappeared. After they were slain Farsight broke all contact and disappeared, later he was again rediscovered but he established his own colonies in Damocles Gulf. He is branded as a traitor to Greater Good. Whiel he is not hostile to the Tau he fortified his borders and destroyed every probe sent at him. But he occasionally helps his people when they need him. "Mysterious enemy" soul like either the Eldar or Imperial Assassins, it may be the Alpha Legion too.
-Tau faced Gorgon in the time of Second phase expansion, Gorgon is also noted as minor ( small ) fleet. The ending is also rewritten, the fleet that was sent during Democles Crusade only just arrived, and they helped Tau to defeat the Tyrandis. After the battle the Tau allowed Imperial Guard to retreat and even giving them honor for that.
-It seems that at the beginning of 42'nd millenium the Orks are threat to Tau just like Chaos is to the Imperium. The Great War of Confederation - When several Ork Wargh's invaded the Empire the Tau threw literally everything they had on them, only to result in stalemate in the end, a war waged over many planets. It was finally over when Shadowsun appeared and defeated the Orks.
- It seems that Tau has an AI holographic version of Puretuide to help them in the time of need and also to teach the ways of Puretide warfare to new generations of Tau commanders. Even going as far as putting few Puretide students in stasis and defrosting them when they needed them to lead the Fire Cast. Shadowsun is one of them.
-Tau Earth Caste during Third phase had new toy - stasis field on ships. Literally entire Tau Caste on the ship could travel through space for months or even years without aging a day.
-It seems that Tau trolled Imperium at Zeist, deliberately sacrificing that sector of space to concentrate on taking down the other areas.
-Tau blowing up stars is called sunbursts, initially it was experiment to harness the energy of the star gone wrong. They plan to use it as a weapon but concluded it can bring more waste them profit.
-Nagi are alien race with mind controlling ability, they serve as advisors of the Ethereal caste. Very interesting...
-Fire Caste have spartan method: those who have health problems or are simply too weak are never heard from again.
-Tau have 3 ways of fighting: Kanyon, Montka and Mobile Warfare ( Blitzkrieg ).
-Tau indeed regard lives of it's soldiers, even an army that has won if they sustained heavy casualties that could have been avoided they do not rejoice but are ashamed.
-Tau Empire is like socialist state - there is almost no personal ownership of any kind. Everything ( from house to clothes and cars and whatever else ) is regarded as property of the Empire.
-Each Tau are tech to be loyal in this order: Ethereal, Empire, Sept, Caste.
-There are also no families in Tau Empire as each Tau is raised by caste system, the closest thing you get to a family is ta'llisea which is basically a bond between two Tau to support each other.
-In Tau Empire there is no individual, everyone are part of a great collective - the Greater Good. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
-Interesting thing: Poctroon were the first race to join the Tau Empire. And after they joined the killer plague eradicated their entire race, Tau being immune to the plague terraform their planet to fit them and colonize it as Bork'an. Some interesting theories can be founded here...
-One more thing that goes in favor of Ethereal mind controlling/pheromone theory: when Vespid was integrated into Tau Empire nothing was able to be agreed except for crystal trade. Few days after Tau Ethereal "talked" with the Vespid leaders they became fanatical followers of the Greater Good.
We need these guys in the UN
-In M39 Eldar mistakenly destroyed an Eldar Maiden worlds. Since then relationship with Tau and Eldar have been stranded. This kills the "Eldar made Ethereals" theory for sure.
-NImbosa changed hands several times and remains a warzone. Seems that Nimbosa Campaign is still ongoing with no knowledge of who is controlling the planet. I don't like this because the Nimbosa Crusade never happened with this.
-In the end Tau only true enemy is the Imperium and Orks who are massing fro a large Wargh just outside their border, they have sent 8 fleets to conquest after taking over an Imperial Forgeworld.
-Shas O'Kais from Dawn of War Dark Crusade is mentioned as one of the newest promising Puretide students.
-This is how ordinary Fire Warrior can advance through ranks: he starts as line trooper ( shas'la ), after 4 years he undertakes Trial by Fire ( it warry from sept to sept ) and if he pass it he becomes Shas'Ui or battle worthy veteran. After another four years he can take a second trial and if he pass it he becomes Shas'Vre or true hero of the Fire Caste, if he survives another four years he can take another trial and if he survives it he becomes commander in training or Shas'El. After he excel in this he can become true commander or Shas'O.
-XV8 armor is the same strength as Adeptus Astartes power armor only lighter.
-Riptide is Tau answer after seeing Gargants and Titans. The ywere able to made it by making Nova Engine, basically a dark matter engine that have the same amount of power as small stars. But this is new technology and it comes with danger, every time Tau pilot use shield or weapons it is in danger of being killed by unstable Nova Reactor.
-One sniper drone team alone killed entire unit of Terminator by shooting them through their eye lenses. I just start respecting this guys.
-It seems that Kroot would even eat Tau corpses when nobody is looking - even if that is forbidden for them by Tau Etherials.
-Vespid story remains unchanged, in the beginning they were untrustworthy to Tau and after their leaders start wearing helmets given to them by Tau at the instruction of Ethereals the Vespid started to respect and ever bow before Ethereals. Mind control theory can be used here even if it's not mentioned it is implied.
-Tau are so tie to lower their casualties that even their AI has self-preserving programming.
-And I see that Tau find Imperium's distrust of AI "strange and "disappointing". They think of AI as one more addition to the Greater Good... I see that they never heard about Man of Iron war with Humanity. I see this as their greatest weakness, all we need is for Tau expedition to unlock some leftover Man of Iron factories or random Necron uploading his program into Tau AI and let the apocalypse begin.
-There is insight of someone from the Tau Empire helping Farsight by giving him information about new technologies. It's either that or Farsight was managed to infiltrate some spies into the Empire to feed him information on latest technology. It is also noted that Ethereals bare to question any individual who have some sympathy for the Farsight, and many are not seen again when they are questioned.
-It seems the reason why Shadowsun hate Farsight is because they were from the same generation and fight together before Ethereals froze her and because she have strict orders from Etherials to hunt down Farsight and bring him back to justice. I can see two more reasons from here for because her pain seems emotional it is possible that they were either lovers or brother and sister.
-Aun'Va is the oldest Tau alive beside Farsight, it is stated that he has lived more than even the long lived Ethereals have. It is also mentioned that when he ask for something and give orders he does it in such a way that others comply even iof they don't know why are they doing this. One more point for mind control/pheromone theory. Only oen Tau had ever refused his order - Farsight.
-They changed the Taros Campaign fluff, it was not Tigershark that killed Warhound - it was tank commander Longstrike. Basically Tigershark only managed to lower the shields of Titan and it was Longstrike who killed him from one Hammerhead shot in the head.
-Aun'Shi, the only Tau Ethereal who cut down hundreds of Orks with his blade. The only Tau I know beside Farsight who use close combat weapon. Because of that he is awesome in my book.
Overall it's a great codex and Tau fluff is excellent. They are not weak nor they are uber powerful but balanced as they should be and the most important thing: they are the closest thing to a good guy in the fluff. On the surface they are nice but beneath it there are some dark areas, anyway one more great codex from Vetock.
What I find awesome in the lore (and the game) is that the Ethereals actually join in combat. Like, what does that say about them? The Popes weren't leading the Crusades on the front lines, the lazy bastards, and politicians of today most likely have never experienced true live combat.
The Space Pope, on the other hand, can roll out his popemobile and join the fray! "Have a taste of my Greater Good, unbelievers!" He would shout and smack fools with his staff.
Lumipon wrote: The Space Pope, on the other hand, can roll out his popemobile and join the fray! "Have a taste of my Greater Good, unbelievers!" He would shout and smack fools with his staff.
One tidbit I found interesting was the part about Space Pope joining Shadowsun at the front, followed by lots and lots of footage shown back home of him taking part in important military operations. The way it's phrased, it kind of seems like it was faked for propaganda purposes. Reminds me of North Korea (Kim Jong Aun?).
An interesting little bit of trivia which I don't think others have spotted or commented:
In the Codex, the Tau phrase Lha s'rhen'na is given the meaning of a worthy or noble sacrifice and is given literally as "shattered jade".
This is actually a direct copy of a real life Chinese phrase (and hence Japanese since Japan borrowed it from China):
大丈夫寧可玉砕何能瓦全
Translated literally as "A man would rather be a shattered jade than be a complete roof tile" but the meaning of this is that it is better to die a noble death than to live in a state of dishonor.
It's a little more sinister. Read the rest of that wiki article: the concept was used to encourage a kind of national mass suicide in the face of potential US invasion.
Manchu wrote: It's a little more sinister. Read the rest of that wiki article: the concept was used to encourage a kind of national mass suicide in the face of potential US invasion.
Yeah there is some great empirical evidence that the concept was horribly misused. This is what I love about the Tau. Their philosophy has so much room for interpretation good\bad. Do the Tau reflect the grimbright attributes or the grimdark attributes the most in actual practice. Fun stuff.
Manchu wrote: It's a little more sinister. Read the rest of that wiki article: the concept was used to encourage a kind of national mass suicide in the face of potential US invasion.
There is nothing sinister itself about the phrase itself. It is a classical Chinese saying from dynastic China.
The phrase and concept is no more sinister than the Spartans dying at Thermopylae instead of surrendering, or Achilles choosing a short life of glory over a long life of being unknown, or any other of endless variations and examples in history and myth of people choosing to die for ideals and their honor.
It seems that at least one GW person has a little interest (or ability to research) in Asian history. I doubt anyone without a familiarity with Japanese or Chinese would have caught the specific reference.
Mythologized stories are one thing; government propaganda is another. In the example to hand, the Japanese government encouraged the Japanese people to resist at all costs, to consider their own lives as nothing compared to the honor of the state. I am not a moral relativist and I see nothing laudatory about such inhumanity. Transposed onto a fictional alien race, I see it for what it is: as Shlazoar mentioned, another layer of ambiguity to keep fans guessing about whether the Tau worldview is good or bad.
Manchu wrote: Mythologized stories are one thing; government propaganda is another. In the example to hand, the Japanese government encouraged the Japanese people to resist at all costs, to consider their own lives as nothing compared to the honor of the state. I am not a moral relativist and I see nothing laudatory about such inhumanity. Transposed onto a fictional alien race, I see it for what it is: as Shlazoar mentioned, another layer of ambiguity to keep fans guessing about whether the Tau worldview is good or bad.
You might as well criticize every single culture throughout history then, as well as the Imperium in 40K. Any culture which at any point upholds death before dishonor in any fashion then would be guilty, and virtually any culture that has had warriors or a military will have at some point had this. The concept is universal. If it is fine for the Imperium to use it, there are no grounds to critique the Tau for doing so, or any other faction for their variation.
dulce et decorum est pro patria mori anyone?
The Greeks did it, as did the Romans, and the British that lifted that phrase, and so on. Fighting for the Fatherland/Motherland? By that same sort of sacrifice and honor rationale, the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae should be condemned for being suicidal idiots that should have valued their own lives and surrendered to the Persians rather than dying in what was strategically a pointless defeat. Which is fine if that is the stance one takes, so long as it is universal. It would be hypocritical to condemn the Japanese while exalting the Spartans...or the Imperium.
Yeah, "death before dishonor" is worthy of criticism in all cultures and all times because it is a dehumanizing instrument of violent power. It makes people into tools, from ends into means. How can you type dulce et decorum without irony? As Owen wrote, it is "the old Lie." Is there something ennobling about combat? -- think of those corpse piles in the mud of the Somme and ask yourself about honor. As to 40k, the GrimDark is not grim and dark because war makes us better.
Manchu wrote: Yeah, "death before dishonor" is worthy of criticism in all cultures and all times because it is a dehumanizing instrument of violent power. It makes people into tools, from ends into means. How can you type dulce et decorum without irony? As Owen wrote, it is "the old Lie." Is there something ennobling about combat? -- think of those corpse piles in the mud of the Somme and ask yourself about honor. As to 40k, the GrimDark is not grim and dark because war makes us better.
It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat. The concept of individual warrior honor in many cultures derives ultimately from a more ancient time when it was about individual prowess in individual match ups. In such circumstances, for those warriors, yes there is ennobling through combat, when their physical strength or skill directly translated into societal standing, and thus indirectly too to their own access to resources or mates. One can see this in tribal societies, like the practice of coup counting for example. That is why some of the earliest tensions in ancient history was between the need for military discipline and the individual warrior's striving for honor/glory.
The context in which one views the concept of honor will affect whether it is viewed as ridiculous or as something worthy of sacrificing for. People have always done things in the names of ideals, causes, or for the sake of their reputations and standing among their peers even when such things appeared to make no sense if viewed purely from a perspective of material or physical well-being.
Death before dishonor is something touted by generals and leaders, safely to the rear of any fighting.
But to be honest in the 40k universe there are very, very few races that can be surrendered to or taken prisoner by , that will not end in a even more gruesome end...so might as well fight to the death.
Iracundus wrote: It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat.
You're the one saying the Imperial Japanese army of WWII should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. In any case, the Tau are much closer to a WWII-era army than the warriors of ancient Greece. "Shattered Jade" in the Tau context isn't as sinister as it would be in a human context, simply because I'm not sure that an individual alien life is worth that much. Maybe the Firewarriors are correct and there's is truly but to do and die.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: But to be honest in the 40k universe there are very, very few races that can be surrendered to or taken prisoner by , that will not end in a even more gruesome end...so might as well fight to the death.
Paradoxically, the Tau may be the only force that one can surrender to and have any hope of a better fate than death.
Yup, although their enemies don't return the favor, its one of the only points that even the most feverish IoM fanatic cannot dispute, the Tau will actually accept surrenders, and even allow the withdrawal of enemy forces, its actually one of their traits that attracted me the most to their fluff.
Iracundus wrote: It has only been dehumanizing in the context of mechanized or massed combat.
You're the one saying the Imperial Japanese army of WWII should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. In any case, the Tau are much closer to a WWII-era army than the warriors of ancient Greece. "Shattered Jade" in the Tau context isn't as sinister as it would be in a human context, simply because I'm not sure that an individual alien life is worth that much. Maybe the Firewarriors are correct and there's is truly but to do and die.
Indeed the Japanese should be judged in the same light as the Spartans. They both died fighting for their nation, and viewed dishonor as a fate worse than death. The Spartans fought in massed combat, as did the Japanese army. Both had examples of suicidal last stands that accomplished no significant military goal. If the actions of the one can be criticized, then so should the other. Or conversely, if the actions of one can be praised then so should the other. There shouldn't be a double standard. The context of the other actions of the combatants such as the mistreatment of civilians or prisoners is not at discussion here, just the specific fact of whether fighting to the last instead of surrendering is praiseworthy or not.
Neither of their situations matches the sort of low scale tribal combat in which the concepts of individual warrior prowess and honor first emerged.
If one views the "shattered jade" as sinister, it would be sinister regardless of whether it is a Tau life or a human life. Both are sentient organisms with similar psyches, just different societal structures.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Yup, although their enemies don't return the favor, its one of the only points that even the most feverish IoM fanatic cannot dispute, the Tau will actually accept surrenders, and even allow the withdrawal of enemy forces, its actually one of their traits that attracted me the most to their fluff.
The Eldar have from time to time accepted surrenders, though that is entirely determinate on their commander. An example is given in the Eldar Codex of a corsair accepting a human surrender and even transporting the humans to a safe location off the Maiden world the Eldar were after.
The only WW2 units I could associate the Tau with are the Japanese Rikusentai (SNLF) because they combine elements of marine forces, paratroopers, infantry, and tanks and armor; as well as fanatical discipline and a stunning level of combined arms. Stylistically, their armor is distinctively Asian, and they even have mecha, but their tanks look more 1950's French than anything else:
Too bad the Hammerhead doesn't have a true oscillating turret complete with an autoloader than can deliver burst damage, like the Dire Avengers bladestorm.
Anyways, has anyone read Peter Fehervari's Fire Caste? I've heard bad reviews for most of the other Tau books published this year, but haven't heard much about this one; the one or two reviews I found on a quick google search seemed to suggest it was pretty good.
Xyrael wrote: Anyways, has anyone read Peter Fehervari's Fire Caste? I've heard bad reviews for most of the other Tau books published this year, but haven't heard much about this one; the one or two reviews I found on a quick google search seemed to suggest it was pretty good.
I am working myself though all Tau novels and short stories released this year. Short evaluation:
1.) The Greater Good: waste of time for both Tau and Ciaphas Cain fans. Nothing new, nothing brilliant, nothing enjoyable. And esp. no tau presence except a small fight at the beginning before the plot starts. Disappointing, as Sandy Mitchell has written maybe the best Tau novel: For the Emperor.
2.) Fire Caste: A brilliant complex novel first of all. Apocalypse Now meets Predator meets HH Legion. It is mainly an IG novel, but there are small fights against Vespids and Kroot and a big end battle against Tau. All enjoyable with small bits of info. There are two eBooks (one of 6 pages, one of 20 pages) by the same author, I have bought both but not yet read them. The first one definitely explores one of the Tau characters in the Fire Caste book, a female officer, the second one follows a Water caste member in the same area it seems. More when I have read them.
3.) Shadowsun: short novel of about 120 pages, hardcover, mailorder only, expensive. Average quality, but completely written from Shadowsun's perspective. Worth reading if you are a Tau fan, maybe not so much if not. Describes a small episode where she crash lands on an Imperial planet. Tau are a bit too emotional for my taste, as tau should not feed the warp that much. But then again, there is no ethereal in sight, in any of the products described so far.
4.) Still to read: The Patient Hunter: small eBook of 20 pages on a riptide pilot.
I see some people have been talking about last stands and so forth...interesting, but to compare it to fluff, in this Codex the Tau don't often go in for that. Page 23:
"...Tau attribute no dishonour to prudent retreat and perceive last stands as incompetent defeats or the last refuge of an unimaginative Commander."
I think the idea of a "worthy sacrifice" would be something the Tau would admire only in the most exceptional circumstances, when absolutely every other possibility has been exhausted.
Something else I really like about this book: the lack of "derp" moments in the fluff. None of that ridiculous "LOL they held a welcome party for Necrons" kind of stuff. I think some writers use the Tau's status as realtive "newcomers" to mean that they also should act like wide-eyed naifs when it comes to first contact. In the new book they seem much more pragmatic.
Also, check out the "Lagan System" fluff on page 29...I find it somewhat surprising that the Chapter mentioned is the Ultramarines, as they hardly come off as the good guys there.
Kroothawk wrote: Tau are a bit too emotional for my taste, as tau should not feed the warp that much.
Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.
Have now read the two short stories by the author of Fire Caste.
Out Caste is 2 print pages on the major Tau officer of Fire Caste, describing her carrer before coming to this planet, including a decisive moment (can't say more without sppoilering). Okay reading for 2 pages. Bit info from Tau perspective.
A Sancurary of Wyrms is 9 print pages playing on the planet just before the book, featuring the above tau officer and a young female Water caste member on expedition. Very nice on the same level as the book. Gives some extra info on the planet, funny to see some well known things from a Tau perspective. Also as suspenseful as the novel. Recommended!
Both should be read after the novel though.
Manchu wrote: Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.
I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.
I have never been one for much BL stuff, but may give these a go on your recommendation kroothawk, I need some new stuff to read while the snow keeps falling
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: I have never been one for much BL stuff, but may give these a go on your recommendation kroothawk
Same here. I'd dismissed Fire Caste on a couple of reviews I'd read saying it was merely yet another Guard novel (and therefore of little interest to Tau fans). But I'll be looking into it more now, as well as the ebooks.
Manchu wrote: Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.
I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.
My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.
Manchu wrote: Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.
I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.
My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.
Good analogy lol. Tau have emotions but they aren't tied to the Warp. However, if their species mutated and began to produce psykers....that could change.
Kroothawk wrote: I have to read through the Codex again.
But ATM the only WFT Bloodtide moment for me was one small tidbit on earth caste:
Spoiler:
They accidentally create a super nove while trying to create an energy source. Then they experiment using that super novas as weapons to destroy planetary systems. Doesn't fit Tau mentality at all IMHO.
Considering the threat of the tyranids it might actually be "best" to super-nova a sun to wipe out a big portion of a feeding swarmfleet than simply let them float over to the next buffe- system.
What if the reason farsight is so long lived and able to disobey an Ethereal is because he is the child of a male ethereal and female firecaste? So maybe he inherited his fathers longevity and immunity to pheramones. But he doesn't bare it physical scars.
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.
Have read the "Patient Hunter" ebooklet. Gets the reward for first mindless railgun-porn. Shortly introduces a few Imperial tank crews and kills them in one paragraph, by a Riptide this time. Not sure if Tau gamers waited for something like that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.
You are really missing the golden age of bloody civil war and self destruction that almost destroyed the Tau race, right? BTW there is no absolute mind control in the new Codex. Sorry.
You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests? Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What if the reason farsight is so long lived and able to disobey an Ethereal is because he is the child of a male ethereal and female firecaste? So maybe he inherited his fathers longevity and immunity to pheramones. But he doesn't bare it physical scars.
Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.
What I assume Farsight's longevity implies is that perhaps the short lives of the Tau are imposed secretly by the Ethereals... The only ones other than Farsight and his enclave to live so long, unless you're like Shadowsun whom the Ethereals really like.
You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests? Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.
I think the fact that Ethereals infiltrated a camp and where immediatly taken to a commander when asked shows they do have some control over tau.
Manchu wrote: Wait, Tau can have all kinds of emotion without feeding the Warp if they are disconnected from it in the first place. I never heard it said that Tau are disconnected from the Warp because they act all ... Vulcanish.
I am not an expert on Chaos, but AFAIK ALL emotions feed the warp, that's why I see the Tau ... Vulcanish.
My understanding is that it's like stirring soup. You can make stirring motions in the air but nothing's going on in the soup until you put the spoon in. The Tau either don't have a spoon in the soup or they're just grazing the skim.
Ya, a full blown Pariah can be a highly emotional person for example. It has nothing to do with how emotional you are but rather just your natural biology.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think the fact that Ethereals infiltrated a camp and where immediatly taken to a commander when asked shows they do have some control over tau.
When Obama comes to a camp, he is also led to the commander immediately. Doesn't mean he mind controls humans by pheromones. Also read further, where (future) Fire Caste members consider the Ethereals proposals for quite some time before agreeing.
Charisma and good arguments are not the same as mind control.
Kroothawk wrote: Have read the "Patient Hunter" ebooklet. Gets the reward for first mindless railgun-porn. Shortly introduces a few Imperial tank crews and kills them in one paragraph, by a Riptide this time. Not sure if Tau gamers waited for something like that.
But of course. What better way to increase sales of the newest, shiniest toy?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Or he is the natural evoulution of the Tau to stop the mind control from the Ethereals.
You are really missing the golden age of bloody civil war and self destruction that almost destroyed the Tau race, right? BTW there is no absolute mind control in the new Codex. Sorry.
Kroothawk wrote: You mean the part where they say that Imperials couldn't find any evidence despite running several tests? Then read again the part where ethereals ended the age of Mont'au. Esp. the part where it took the ethereals several days to convince the (future) Fire caste members.
Not only that, but it was never absolute.
It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving. If an Ethereal were of such a mind, he could order another Tau to kill himself and would be obeyed immediately. The Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Arbites are very interested in this aspect of Tau culture...
- Codex Tau (Chambers, A., Haines, P. and McNeill, G., 2001)
Key word is "speculated". Another key observation is that it's old Imperials sat around a table stroking their beards, trying to justify to their narrow-thinking, xenophobic minds why aliens are loyal to an ideal that doesn't center around their God-Emperor. Of course! It must be brainwashing!*
*Note: it may very well be brainwashing. After all, are not the denizens of the Imperium brainwashed by the Imperial Cult? Yes. Does that mean it's pheromones or mind control? Nope. Just good, old fashioned religious zealotry.
But for some reason, Imperial cult and zealotry of the Imperium are somehow considered worse than similar case with Tau. It's a personal trend that I have observed in people.
I would argue that Tau's totalitarian regime is worse one than Imperium's. You see, Imperial cult very rarely are interested in your personal life beyond certain things like religion and your loyalties. Rest is left for you to decide. You can practically marry with whatever you want. You can work whatever you want (with a reason of course). You can spend your free time as you want. While Tau on the other hand seem to be shackled in this aspect. They have a caste system which is symbolic tyranny. They are forced into certain aspect of work. And the nature of "Greater good" and Tau's tendencies implies to me that even their personal lifes are restricted.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:-There is mention of Adeptus Mechanicus expedition in M35 but there is no mention of Warp Storm at all. The closest thing to it is the mention of "strange lights" which can be anything .
6th edition rulebook says otherwise:
Warhammer 50k 6th edition rulebook pg 213 wrote:
First CoNTAcT
The Imperium's Explorators first encountered the Tau just prior to
the Age of Apostasy, finding a resource-rich planet surrounded by a
promising band of star systems The inhablting race, the ancestors
of the Tau, were little more than savannah-roaming primitives
Marked for extermination, the Imperium sent out a seeding colony,
but'Warp storms arose and the Imperium's armada was never
heard from again. W'hen the tumultuous energies calmed enough
for recontact, nearly six thousand years later, the Tau had changed
almost beyond recognition. The Imperiurn found a newborn
empire busily expanding, even daring to absorb a handful of
planets previously under rule of the Imperium. The Departmento
Munitorum has increased manpower tithes and begun the
preparations to supply another massive war zone.
Democles Crusade was mentioned, however it's goal was not the crush the Tau completely but rather to drive them out of Damocles custer, in which they succeed. Damocles Crusade forces were mentioned as 19 Regiments and 5 Chapters ( undermanned of course, likely a company from each or less than that ). Damocles Crusade ended when Tau reinforcements arrived and drive the Imperials back, it was not because of the Tyranids. Tau had the chance to destroy them but halted and staged a peace treaty on Ethereal orders.
The bloody campaign known as the Damocles
Crusade saw the might of the Tau Empire
set against the Imperium of Man.
Already hard-pressed by dozens of other
incursions and subjugations, the Imperium
was forced to act against the Tau empire
as the warriors of that fledgling empire
attempted to seize vulnerable worlds
for their 'Greater Good'.
A crusade fleet crossed the expanse known as
the Damocles Gulf set upon vengeance. Soon
several Space Marine Chapters and millions
of Imperial Guardsmen were engaged on a
series of worlds. Whilst the Tau Fire'Warriors
caused grievous casualties on the crusade
forces, slowly they lost ground. Only the
threat of a Tyranid Hive Fleet distracted the
Imperium from its bloody work. Even now,
a funher reckoning is at hand.
Warhammer 40k 6th edition rulebook pg 387 wrote:
Help was at hand, however, as a sizeable ponion of Crusade
Group Black Gate was diverted from their mission to reinforce
the Imperial efforts in the Damocles Gulf.
Kroothawk wrote: [
5.) Tau not using meatshields and honouring minimized casualties on their side is stressed several times.
Does this line appply to Auxillaries too?
Cause FFG has this to say:
Deathwatch core rulebook pg 355 wrote:
Human armies are also fighting here under orders from the
Tau, leading to a paranoid atmosphere where any soldier’s
squadmate could be an infiltrator sent by the other side.
Ebongrave’s purges are most frequent on the Greyhell Front
and a Guardsman is almost as likely to be executed by his
own side as he is to be killed by the xenos. Life is no better
for the gue’la auxiliaries, who are wont to be abandoned
by their Tau overlords or betrayed by Imperial intelligence
officers who have worked their way into their ranks.
