White Dwarf #53 had templates and instructions for building a Warhound Titan.
A friend of mine spent three days building his Warhound using the GW guides and fielded it in our recent Apocalypse game.
Another player fielded a FW Warhound and was upset that the paper Titan was allowed.

This was not a GW tournament. It was not a store-run event. It was just a big game we all worked together to plan and play.

Who is right?
Is the paper Titan considered a GW model since they were the ones who released the instructions in the first place?

It's not so much a matter of right and wrong as it is expectations.

I can understand how the guy that shelled out $400 for the Forge World titan, assembled it, and I assume painted it would be upset that someone made one out of paper or card stock and was allowed to play with it.

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

As this was a friendly game, I wouldn't have a problem with a well built, card stock titan.

Edit: Are you sure it was WD #53? I'm not seeing that article in the RPGnet summary. (nor #52 or 54).

 kronk wrote:

I can understand how the guy that shelled out $400 for the Forge World titan, assembled it, and I assume painted it would be upset that someone made one out of paper or card stock and was allowed to play with it.

This.

However if the other guy had made his titan out of $50 bills instead of cardstock - it would have been acceptable. Either that, or just give each opponent $10 or $20 during the game.

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

But by extension, should people who modelled, for example, Lootas before they were released, have to buy and use the new kit ones, even if the unit they scratch built are GW kit (bashed) and well modelled?
Wheres the line drawn?

Kronk:
Not entirely sure. I am no expert on WD. That's what I was told. If you find out for sure let me know.

No idea, Ratius.

Again, I don't see this as a black and white, right or wrong thing as much as not everyone has the same idea of what is OK and what isn't, going in.

Better communication from the organizer about scratch builds and the like would have helped here, I think.

Agreed on that Kronk.

Interesting to see if someone brought a paper Titan to a sanctioned GW tourney. How would it go down?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?
Im unsure.

 Ratius wrote:

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

But by extension, should people who modelled, for example, Lootas before they were released, have to buy and use the new kit ones, even if the unit they scratch built are GW kit (bashed) and well modelled?
Wheres the line drawn?

The guy with a FW Titan was fine with it during set up but in the game the paper Titan destroyed the FW Titan and he had a conniption. He pulled his models off the table and left in turn 3. We laugh and say that the Paper Titan made a 10,000 point shot. Needless to say, we continued playing but lost horrendously.

What 'tourneys' allow titans? especially GW ones?

It all boils down to 'rule of cool'. If it is spraypainted toletpaper rolls stapeled to a tissue box with a tennis ball for a head, then yes, people may complain. If it is a complex and detailed cardstock, which looks like the model it is representing then people probably won't.

Pics are needed.

If the players didn't agree to no scratch builds or no card stock or no proxies for Super Heavies going in, then it's up to the organizer to decide, and he should lean towards permitting rather than forbidding, in most cases. The guy did go through the trouble of building a titan from card stock, which is no simple task. Obviously, this titan was a large part of his army's points. To deny him at the last minute might not only prevent him from playing at the event, but could cause uneven sides and prevent the game from happening. As a "friendly, non-store event", that would suck.

However, his investment in time and money was not on par with the guy with the actual model.

Now that this has happened, the players need to set ground rules for future events to avoid people's feelings getting hurt and time being wasted.

 StormK wrote:

The guy with a FW Titan was fine with it during set up but in the game the paper Titan destroyed the FW Titan and he had a conniption. He pulled his models off the table and left in turn 3. We laugh and say that the Paper Titan made a 10,000 point shot. Needless to say, we continued playing but lost horrendously.

Aha, now we're getting the whole story!

Sounds like a poor sport.

Pics of both titans are in my gallery...

This is the only titan I see in your gallery, and I'm pretty sure it's the real deal...

Also, I wouldn't allow another vehicle to drive between it's legs. As a walker, it's supposed to be on a base, even if one isn't provided.

The pictures don't show enough of the Titan. I'm fairly sure that's a real one.

Do you have any better pictures?

 kronk wrote:
This is the only titan I see in your gallery, and I'm pretty sure it's the real deal...

Also, I wouldn't allow another vehicle to drive between it's legs. As a walker, it's supposed to be on a base, even if one isn't provided.

This is the Titan that was killed by the paper Titan.

Here's the Paper Titan.

I've never heard of GW releasing titan templates and wD54 predates the release of 40k.

That being said every apoc game I've been to has ha scratchbuilds of varying quality, just like every tournament has paintjobs of varying quality. Unless the tournament rules call for only GW/FW the paper titan should be allowed.

We all know that sooner or later the best painted model will die to a 12 year old with a shoe box with 'tank written on it, that's life.

That titan looks pretty cool, actually. Too bad it wasn't fully painted.

That papertitan is a good start. It isn't done and has no place on a tabletop where 'finished models' are required for the event.

Considering the event had smatterings of unpainted models, then it appears as if this event had no standards.

Did the event have standards which were forcibly relaxed by attendees 'showing up' with unpainted models, or was it no standards from the start?

If you want to advertise, 'no standards', that's cool so people can be warned not to attend. If you are going to advertise standards then let people who show up intending to have rules not apply to them participate degrading everyone else's experience, then that is not cool.

I don't care what the standard is, as long as you keep it consistent.

Yeah, as long as an event has no standards, you can't really drop the hate too hard on someone for coming with such a thing ... it literally wasn't substandard for the event.

That said, Nick hits effectively on the fact that you really need to advertise.

One of the biggest problems with Apocalyspe sized events lies in not providing attendees with effective information / not setting expectations correctly. The Paper Titan guy didn't do anything wrong, and the actual titan owner probably should have eased up on him given the fact that he probably wasn't also raging about all the unpainted models at their titans' feet. He was understandably upset initially, however, for simple fact that he probably had no idea what to expect, set his own image in his head of how awesome it would be, and felt let down at what he saw.

Unfortunately, more often than not, the paper titan can turn out looking terrible.

I personally could understand it, but outside of friendly play, I would get very irked.

This is the deal.
A friendly game with a specific scenario and scenario specific rules was emailed to all of the registered players. Notice was given 4 weeks before the event. As people had to cancel, points value shifted and some players had to switch sides. Nine people were scheduled to play on the morning of the event. The only rules expectations were that players had to have a reasonable amount of their army painted, and that forces that could not ally would be subject to our version of the "suspicion" rule.

The player with the $545.00 Titan (heretofore referred to as 545) showed up during set up and threw a fit until he was allowed to play. He also argued that he should be allowed to bring 10,000 points (in all the emails we had established a 5,000 point limit per person just so the game wouldn't bog down) eventually we relented just to get things going. We shifted points and gave the attackers another 10,000 to work with and made last minute adjustments to accommodate 545.

Before play he admired the work done on Paper Titan. He also walked around and complimented players on their army, conversions, paint schemes, etc.

My friend and I went over the rules and conditions of victory as well as announcing the updated story for the scenario before the start of the game.
Because 545 had 10,000 points we allowed him to bear the burden of defending the main objective on the main battle board. Other defenders were shunted off the main board to battle over secondary objectives on three separate tables.

In turn three Paper Titan destroys 545's Titan and 545 started getting upset. Within 15 minutes he was screaming about how a paper model should not be allowed in a tournament and how he spent so much money his Titan shouldn't be destroyed. He claimed that we didn't know how to run a tournament and that GW would never allow a paper Titan.

545 worked himself up into a frenzy and packed up all of his models and left. We now had a 10,000 point hole on the main board. Story-wise we said that the Titan had a holographic generator that was projecting an image of the "Blood Knights" army.

Play resumed and everyone else had a great time even though the defenders lost in a big way we considered the event to be a big success.
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model? Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament? A recent Feast of Blades tournament disqualified a kid because the bulk of his army was made from cereal box cardboard and was poorly done.
I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Sounds bad...

I see more of a problem with 545...

 StormK wrote:
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model?

IMO, no. It's obviously lacking compared to the real model, and it's questionable whether it really was a GW release or just a third-party template and "it's GW" as an excuse to be allowed to use it. If I was running the event I wouldn't allow it.

Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament?

Yes. Right or wrong GW wants you to buy their models to play in their events, so anything that isn't a GW kit won't be allowed.

In a sensibly run event (IOW, not run by GW) it depends. A high-quality scratchbuild will probably be allowed, if it's done for the sake of having a unique and awesome model rather than being lazy and/or cheap. A low-quality scratchbuild like the paper titan wouldn't be allowed.

I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Only if you don't look at it very hard. The paper titan isn't even close to the real model in detail and quality, and just gluing on some random bits isn't going to change that. An acceptable scratchbuild is going to take a lot more work than that one, to the point that there's no real savings (assuming the "time is money" rule) over just buying the FW one.

Since GW no longer support Tournaments/events the rule of "is it a GW model" should be irrelevent.
If GW wants us to use only their toys (even their rediculousy expensive FW toys) then they should pony up some prize support.

545 sounds like the problem child. Demanding special exemption to bring twice the points of anyone else without prior notification (including his non-based Titan), has no problem with the paper titan pre-game, then gets butt-hurt when his high-dollar model gets punked by it.
I wonder what he would have done had the opposing team decided to take their extra 5000 points in nothing but TH/SS titan breaking Terminator squads and deep-struck them all right onto the Titan, killing it then beating the rest of his army to pulp the next turn?

 Peregrine wrote:

 StormK wrote:
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model?

IMO, no. It's obviously lacking compared to the real model, and it's questionable whether it really was a GW release or just a third-party template and "it's GW" as an excuse to be allowed to use it. If I was running the event I wouldn't allow it.

Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament?

Yes. Right or wrong GW wants you to buy their models to play in their events, so anything that isn't a GW kit won't be allowed.

In a sensibly run event (IOW, not run by GW) it depends. A high-quality scratchbuild will probably be allowed, if it's done for the sake of having a unique and awesome model rather than being lazy and/or cheap. A low-quality scratchbuild like the paper titan wouldn't be allowed.

I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Only if you don't look at it very hard. The paper titan isn't even close to the real model in detail and quality, and just gluing on some random bits isn't going to change that. An acceptable scratchbuild is going to take a lot more work than that one, to the point that there's no real savings (assuming the "time is money" rule) over just buying the FW one.

You make a number of good points. My first instinct is to argue with you over the quality of the Paper Titan build but after thinking about it I realize that I'm may be coloring my perception based on my friendship with the player. It's a great scratch build though....
How would I run a "sanctioned" event? Would rules trump friendship in the interest of fairness?

I would enforce wysiwyg for sure, but if it looks good....?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
Since GW no longer support Tournaments/events the rule of "is it a GW model" should be irrelevent.
If GW wants us to use only their toys (even their rediculousy expensive FW toys) then they should pony up some prize support.

545 sounds like the problem child. Demanding special exemption to bring twice the points of anyone else without prior notification (including his non-based Titan), has no problem with the paper titan pre-game, then gets butt-hurt when his high-dollar model gets punked by it.
I wonder what he would have done had the opposing team decided to take their extra 5000 points in nothing but TH/SS titan breaking Terminator squads and deep-struck them all right onto the Titan, killing it then beating the rest of his army to pulp the next turn?

*whew* that is something I'd pay to see....
Am I bad person?

545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Sarge wrote:
545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Was it that bad? as a judge Id talk to him first and see what his POV was before I made a choice. Personal issues could be at play making his judgement and tolerance level low, THIS is no excuse how ever. But may warrant a second and final chance.

 Atropus wrote:

Sarge wrote:
545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Was it that bad? as a judge Id talk to him first and see what his POV was before I made a choice. Personal issues could be at play making his judgement and tolerance level low, THIS is no excuse how ever. But may warrant a second and final chance.

He has been a problem everywhere he goes. I thought helping him feel like a part of the group would improve his fits but he will not be given an eighth or ninth chance. From now on club events will be for members only...

Someone put effort into it. They just didn't put massive amounts of money into it.

I see no problems with the paper titan.

The guy with the real titan is obviously just a whinny spoiled baby. That's his problem. I wonder if he cried himself to sleep with his 'real' titan in his arms.

It sounds like the 'mistake' was bending/breaking the event's organization to include "545"

Mega battles are VERY HARD to organize and keep going. Much harder than tourneys IMHO because people know how to play 15 one-on-one matches at the same time.

Limiting superheavies and points is super important. I easily have 20K of painted orks not including superheavies and about 10 superheavies. Is it cool for me to get to play with all my toys... it is impossible to play with them.

What I will do is provide my models for others to play with, but that requires the event to have hard standards of how much per person and per side, and what kind of models you want and if there is a narrative organization to the event.

It sounds pretty bad with the 10k hole in the force. It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sucks your event got poo-pooed on. But I do think all painted for megabattles is reasonable as well as turning people not pre-registered away (or allowing them to play one of the pre-provided forces so if they leave, the forces stay on the table)

You could go for a bond ($50 say) that late unexpected arrivals have to hand over to the organisers to be allowed to participate

returned at the end if they stay the distance, but forfited if they leave before the end.

stick it in the rules pack for next time

I see more of a problem with 545...

QFT

Grabbed his army and walked off? Hmm had issues even before he walked in - Could have been 5 wonderfully painted and official Gargants and he still would have walked.

However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

 Ratius wrote:


However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

I think it requires detail and painting, which cardstock is capable of being detailed and painted. Papercraft is usually not sturdy enough for high detail or painting and is usually detailed and colored with printing only.

"Rule of Cool" is a fickle bitch sometimes.

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
However, can anyone definitvely answer this Q?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?

Either:

1) The official model.

or

2) An equivalent that looks at least as good. If you're capable of scratchbuilding a FW-quality titan out of cardboard then good for you, I'll be happy to play against it. If your "scratchbuild" is really "I want to spam D-weapons but I don't want to spend any money on it" then no, it shouldn't be acceptable.

What material the model is made out of doesn't matter, only the final result is important.


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 Bat Manuel wrote:
Someone put effort into it. They just didn't put massive amounts of money into it.

Hardly. It's completely lacking in detail, and not painted at all. The owner managed to glue some cardboard templates into the correct shape, but it's a pretty low-effort proxy.

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin. I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill. Of course it isn't up to standards of the FW model but it is definately NOT a cheap looking piece of crap.

Having said that, I think that it's just good manners to mind your tongue if you are at someone's event by their good graces. And if you have a problem that nobody else sees as a problem, maybe you should suck it up and just move on. Our game group showed true character by continuing the game and having a great time in spite of 545's antics. nobody in our group is a power gamer. Usually it is your opponent who reminds you that you have an unused ability, or a unit that still needs to fire or whatever...
545 plays the newb killer armies of Blood Angels and Grey Knights. He calls them his "Blood Knights". He usually cant win against our more experienced players even with them trying to help him out, so he has had a problem with everyone in the group. Usually about something ridiculous.

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

Of course the Warhound has been available for some time now...

 StormK wrote:
Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Then you must have posted the wrong picture, because the paper titan in the picture you posted doesn't even come close to the FW model. The details are completely missing, and nobody who is even vaguely familiar with the real one could confuse the two, even from across the table.

Also, three days is a joke. Building and painting real titan takes weeks, at minimum. If you're finishing a scratchbuild in three days it's only because you're not even trying to reach an acceptable level of quality.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin.

So fine, play Apocalypse without titans. I don't really see why D-weapon spam is so vital to Apocalypse that you can't have a fun game without titans.

I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill.

Ten times more effort than what?

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

And I'm not disputing that. Materials are irrelevant, if it looks as good as the real model it should be allowed. The problem with the paper titan isn't that it's made out of paper, it's that it's a low-effort proxy that doesn't even come close to the quality of the real model.

Yeah, the paper titan isn't even painted. It fails 'rule of cool' by a wide margin.

I am not saying it is a total throw away... it looks like it is a good start. But simple things like detailing, rivets, trim, symbols, decorations, a good base and so on can turn a spraypanted black paper shell into a real model.

If you spend 3 days on something, why not spend 5 and make it really nice? Why run a race and stop before the finish line?

And Warhounds have been available almost longer than any other titan. They have been 'available' for close to 20 years. Lack of model doesn't justify half-completed or bad models.

But in this situation, it appears as if the event had no requirements as every image has racks of unpainted dudes... so an incomplete warhound is no different than unpainted eldar or primed landraiders... So if there are no standards and everyone was aware of this the you suck it up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 StormK wrote:
Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Then you must have posted the wrong picture, because the paper titan in the picture you posted doesn't even come close to the FW model. The details are completely missing, and nobody who is even vaguely familiar with the real one could confuse the two, even from across the table.

Also, three days is a joke. Building and painting real titan takes weeks, at minimum. If you're finishing a scratchbuild in three days it's only because you're not even trying to reach an acceptable level of quality.

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin.

So fine, play Apocalypse without titans. I don't really see why D-weapon spam is so vital to Apocalypse that you can't have a fun game without titans.

I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill.

Ten times more effort than what?

My defense of the Paper Titan as a model comes from the fact that units have been available to play, but GW or FW doesn't have models to represent these units. Scratch building or kit-bashing, I think, should be allowed as a representative model. Quality should be enforced, of course, but I see nothing wrong with a good model being fielded no matter how it was made or purchased.

And I'm not disputing that. Materials are irrelevant, if it looks as good as the real model it should be allowed. The problem with the paper titan isn't that it's made out of paper, it's that it's a low-effort proxy that doesn't even come close to the quality of the real model.

You know what? I think most people's scratch builds/conversions look like utter crap, but I don't care. They aren't my models and I'm not going to begrudge anyone for using what they want (made out of whatever) even if they don't meet my standards of 'cool.'

Get over yourself.

Make models, play games. Unless you're a purist fanboy, it shouldn't matter if the models on the table are GW or not, as long as everyone knows what they are supposed to be. The belief that gamers should aim to use GW figures in GW games all the time is a nonsense that somehow GW has managed to encourage over the years to the point where people argue about using the 'official' figures in private games. Stop for a moment and think, just how stupid is that? Why should it matter whether your Titan is resin or scratchbuilt from plastic card?

Unless you're going to a GW sponsored event, people should play with armies of their own preference. I don't mean that it's valid to field rubbish, the apocryphal shoe-box land raider, there are plenty of good quality scratchbuilds and conversions that would fail the 'GW percentage test' but should be welcomed onto any right minded battlefield.

White Dwarf has never provided plans for a 40K titan, unless I'm hugely mistaken. WD #53 was well before 40K was even released, and the largest model they did was the baneblade in #132.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StormK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

This titan has been allowed in our previous Apocalypse game without problems because we are all friends and we understand that feeding your family is more important than stroking GW or FW's ego by dropping a ton of cash for an armless hunk of resin. I'd say the Paper Titan took ten times more effort to create and showed some serious modeling skill. Of course it isn't up to standards of the FW model but it is definately NOT a cheap looking piece of crap.

Try looking at threads following people building a resin titan, you're hugely underestimating the work involved if you think a cardboard titan built in three days requires 'ten times more effort'. FW titans are not like regular plastic kits built out of the box.

Well.
I have a lot of models that would fail the 80% rule. Right now a am sculpting a huge Bloodthirster out of green stuff and milliput.
The head is green stuff over a thundertusk head. Everything else but the feet will be wire and sculpting. I'm making the model to prove to myself that I have talent and for use in big games where number crunching isn't so important.
All of that effort goes to waste if I take it to an official event?

 StormK wrote:
Well.
I have a lot of models that would fail the 80% rule. Right now a am sculpting a huge Bloodthirster out of green stuff and milliput.
The head is green stuff over a thundertusk head. Everything else but the feet will be wire and sculpting. I'm making the model to prove to myself that I have talent and for use in big games where number crunching isn't so important.
All of that effort goes to waste if I take it to an official event?

"Rule of Cool" and "Must be GW parts" are two different standards which have totally different purposes and are not the same. Something can pass "Rule of Cool" but Fail "GW Parts". Something can pass "GW Parts" and fail "Rule of Cool"

If you play in a GW event at a GW store or something with GW organization and prize support, (not many of these exist) then the primary goal of the event is to promote and generate GW sales. This usually means non-GW models are not usually welcome, within reason usually. And as much as people throw up in their mouths over this and recoil in horror, PP events are exactly like this as well. PP has very active Support for prizes and events, and do it to promote sales of their products and most events I have seen require PP models. I see much more leeway at Indy GW events than Indy PP events because most Indy PP events are officially sponsored and run by PP interests. Take the king's coin, do the king's bidding.

"Rule of Cool" is a totally different mechanic for a totally different reason. "Rule of Cool" is usually involved when people make custom models or conversions and then see how appropriate they are for the standards of the event. Better your model looks, the less chance it will be an issue. Also, the better it looks, the more forgiving people will be of Proxies, 'counts as', Non-wysiwyg models.

Your custom models would probably pass Rule of Cool most places as long as it was a finished model. You may get away at GW events because of Rule of Cool and it being 'scratch' and not 3rd party.

Ask your TO, Your mileage may vary.

 StormK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sure, stuff blows up fast. But even people who understand how Apocalypse works can be justifiably annoyed when the big centerpiece model they spent huge amounts of time and money on gets blown up by someone who spent 15 minutes throwing together a crude proxy model so they could use a powerful game-winning unit. That doesn't justify his general behavior, but he does have a valid point about cardboard "titans".

Read the thread again... it took the guy THREE days to build the paper titan. It was not a cheap looking piece of crap. It was a model that people think is a FW model until they look closely at it. The legs, the toes, all the hydraulic tubing etc. looked awesome. the top looks kind of plain and he hasn't finished painting it, but it looks good enough that even 545 was commenting on how good it looked.

Three days is not the basis for allowing something, sadly. Three days is NOTHING when it comes to a Warhound Titan. My rhinos take at least 1.5 8-hour hobby days. I've been painting and modeling since 2001. My Warhound titan took at least 15 8-hour days to complete, when I sat down and added up time spent building, pinning, gluing, removing mold lines, painting, and basing. I'm not an amateur and it's the FW model.

I won't say his titan looked like crap. As I said earlier, I was impressed with it. BIt is severely lacking in detail, though. Also, it's unpainted. If you're going to scratch build something so that you can use D-Weapons, at least paint it. A blanket statement like "He spent 3 days making it, so he should get to play" doesn't fly with me, either.

As someone who was at the Apoc event mentioned, the Titans were very well constructed in the amount of time given. When someone spends time scratchbuilding any model and it doesn't look like poo they should be rewarded for their effort.
The main battle board looked better than anything I've seen in any Big book or Codex. And was a treat to play on.

Spending money on a FW unit should not make it indestructible nor any more of a real model than any other one on the table. Afterall we are playing an apoc game where things tend to die in mass or go nuclear every turn.

That being said 545 or as he's better now known as BB was going to be a problem at some point or another. I mean this is the same guy who almot cries and throws a tantrum when a terrmie fails a 2+ save. Even if the paper titan didn't blow up the FW titan anything killing it would have probably caused the same reaction.

I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would totally participate in a contest where they gave a routine item and the goal was to turn it into an amazing wargaming mini.

The tatertitan builds are amazing and fun.

IGotBodied wrote:
That being said 545 or as he's better now known as BB was going to be a problem at some point or another. I mean this is the same guy who almot cries and throws a tantrum when a terrmie fails a 2+ save. Even if the paper titan didn't blow up the FW titan anything killing it would have probably caused the same reaction.

It seems the biggest issue was 545.

nkelsch wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would totally participate in a contest where they gave a routine item and the goal was to turn it into an amazing wargaming mini.

The tatertitan builds are amazing and fun.

I would make Deff Dreads made out of onions and potatoes!

Time to start a new thread about scratch builds...

 StormK wrote:
I think I'm gonna have to run a tournament where each models must be 80% scratch built. No painted models allowed and a prize goes to the most creative use of toilet paper tubes...


We'll call it Papocalypse....

I would enormously enjoy participating in an event or contest where everyone is given a random box of parts with which they are to assemble their models, and the "parts" are things like paper towel rolls, empty bottless, beer caps, etc etc.

Beerkeg Gargant anyone?

And What about killa kans made from actual cans? But really people seem to be forgetting the first rule of Apok. To have fun. I have built a card stock Warlord and well its level of detail may not have been near forge world it did take me a long time to make. I have actually built and painted a Stormlord in less time then it took to make the titan so well yes the "paid" for titan may take more work don't take away from anyone who wants to build their own rather then fork over five Benjamin to buy a model they may well never actually get to use on the table. I still have not found chance to use my storm Lord on the table top. And what if the Titan in question had of been a warlord with that level of detail? There is not official model for it but there are rules. Would you forbid that out of principle assuming it was painted?


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And back to the scratch build stuff you can get enough parts to make an army of ork walkers from your average college dinning hall. Plastic cups along with plastic , forks ,knives and spoons and a good mek boy could make an army of deff dreads.

And "nerd elitism" rears it's head again. It makes me wonder why I even delve into these threads, and am glad that half the people who argue things on here are nowhere near for me to ever have to socialize about the hobby with/play against.

So what if someone is butthurt that they spend tons of money on a Forgeworld model and somebody else used a bunch of effort to scratchbuild the same thing? That doesn't make them the only one capable of being the "cool guy" at the scene, only the most pitiful when they whine using that as a reason.

The same reasoning would then prove that a player's "Rhino with Forgeworld doors and details" is more legitimate than my stock version, because they spent more money on it to crow about. Is that true? NOPE, because we are playing a game that gives combat values to army men.

It's supposed to be a fun experience to play 40K with other people that are using the games rules to play fair, with everything else around that being cool, fun things to add to the experience.

Would I play against a papercraft or scratchbuild Warhound titan? Hell yes, I would, and if he used templates to do it, I would ask the guy if I can have a copy to make my own and share the fun!

Ah I duuno Grimm, not many people took the paper guy to task here, infact most people imo were supportive of the effort and time spent on it.
I'd have no problem with it either, especially in Apoc where as someone mentioned rule #1 is: FUN

Yeah, but I have read every other paper/scratchbuild thread since I've been around here. They all end up being about how Forgeworld models are the most legitimate, because they are expensive and take tons of time to build and paint, and how scratchbuilders and papercrafters are trying to horn in on the game with something inexpensive and cheaply thrown together.

Believe me, I wholly support all the people that love playing the game for the fun of it, and like to see others show up with something cool and inventive to play with and show off.

Cool

I think the paper titan is brilliant when I saw it, I think what some people have to understand is that some people really cannot afford an £800 Titan from FW, I mean I would love a Chaos Reaver Titan but if I tried to buy one it would take me at least 4+ years to get one, and even then no one plays Apoc events at my FLGS so it would be a waste of time unfortunately, but my main point is that for some people, if they want it but cant afford it the paper route is where they will go and I support this, for me it dosnt matter about skill as long as you tell me where the weapons are then im all for it.

Either way the titan looks fantastic .

I wonder if anyone would argue against a Warhound titan built out of Games Workshop 40k paper box sets. Clearly it's 100% 40k product.

Rooofl, using their template, brilliant

Now based off the pictures provided I see a reason why someone might get upset. The detail level isnt very high and could use a lot more work. GRANTED if this was an on going project just in the early stages then there is reason to side with the papertitan. If at the next event is shows up with more detail and better paint then hey good for you. WIP work should be allowed, as long as it is progressing over time.

THAT SAID, no one should get their panties in a bunch over loosing a model in a game. I'd like to remind us all we are pushing little plastic army men around a table, rolling dice, and yelling 'pew pew' at each other and calling it war. Perspective is key.


I HAVE in the past build several paperstock titans and sold them. It isvery possible with plasticard and rods to make details and little additions that make the papercraft seem very real. Add a good paint job and some weathering and you get a reasonable model that is more then tabletop standard. It on average takes me 3 weeks of on and off work to make and paint a titan. Sadly I have no pictures on hand.

The only thing I could possibly see a problem to gripe with with is that the paper titan is unpainted. But that's only because I detest unpainted armies, and would say that of any army or prominent model that's just being fielded as bare plastic and metal.

It wouldn't stop me at all from playing against it, though. Especially if the guy was using it "in progress' and ended up painting and detailing it. At the end of the day it's just a 1-foot tall gaming pawn with a set of stats, after all, no matter what it costs. The real meat of the hobby, for me at least, is what you do to make the pawn something personalized and unique to you, not what you spent on it or what it's made of.

I'm supportive of the Rule of Cool, but with a much lower bar. basically if after my first look at it I want to get a closer look it can play. you said 545 was admiring the paper titan beforehand so I think he can't complain about it after

Not sure if this makes a difference, but that scratch-built titan is almost certainly from the "JSV templates" that were created in 2008 and based off of a 2003 non-GW design, not a GW White Dwarf print. A quick Google search can turn up these blueprints. While that one looks pretty rough (and if made out of printer paper instead of cardboard is gonna be pretty crappy), when done properly, the JSV Template can produce some amazing results upon completion.

-James

We used to have a guy like BB at our FLGS. This guy used to bring a gi joe toy as his super heavy. Even when we blew it up with our GW models he still cried about how unfair the rules are. Eventually even the store owner couldn't take this obnoxious person and barred him from coming back. And this was before the apocalypse book came out. We were just playing for fun but this guy had some major personality quarks.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They all end up being about how Forgeworld models are the most legitimate, because they are expensive and take tons of time to build and paint, and how scratchbuilders and papercrafters are trying to horn in on the game with something inexpensive and cheaply thrown together.

That's because many scratchbuilders are bringing something cheaply thrown together with minimal effort. Yes, there are talented scratchbuilders who produce awesome models (after spending way more effort on them than it would take to build the "real" model), but let's be honest here: most people scratchbuilding Apocalypse stuff just found the rules for overpowered D-weapon spam and want to win games without having to invest a lot of effort into it. Their cardboard "titans" are just a bunch of boxes glued into the general shape of a titan with no detail/painting/etc, just to get their powerful unit on the table asap and start "building" the next one. And even the "good" papercraft models are still seriously lacking.

So yes, there's some justifiable annoyance when you spend a huge amount of effort building and painting an awesome centerpiece model and then someone else brings one they spent 15 minutes building the night before the game because it has awesome rules.

I think the paper titan is brilliant when I saw it, I think what some people have to understand is that some people really cannot afford an £800 Titan from FW, I mean I would love a Chaos Reaver Titan but if I tried to buy one it would take me at least 4+ years to get one, and even then no one plays Apoc events at my FLGS so it would be a waste of time unfortunately, but my main point is that for some people, if they want it but cant afford it the paper route is where they will go and I support this, for me it dosnt matter about skill as long as you tell me where the weapons are then im all for it.

Then if you can't afford one (and can't build one that is the same quality) don't play with a titan. There's no rule that Apocalypse games have to have titans, in fact they're probably better balanced if you don't.

Paper model is a model. Resin model is a model. Model fights model. One model loses.

So one guy got pissy because his expensive model got killed by a cheaper model? Dry 'em, buddy. As long as it was a good build, respect the effort the guy put into his scratchbuild and don't have a cry because your tactics sucked.

Boys get very whiney about their war dollies, don't they?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As long as it was a good build, respect the effort the guy put into his scratchbuild and don't have a cry because your tactics sucked.

It wasn't a good build. There's a picture of it posted on the first page, and it falls well short of anything I'd consider acceptable.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
As long as it was a good build, respect the effort the guy put into his scratchbuild and don't have a cry because your tactics sucked.

It wasn't a good build. There's a picture of it posted on the first page, and it falls well short of anything I'd consider acceptable.

OK, let me re-work my comment:

If you agreed to play against a model, don't get pissy if it kills your model. This includes the scratchbuild you agreed to play against, and the Grot that kills your Terminator. Please apply this to any scenario where you get upset after the fact.

As 545 agreed to fight the PaperHound and as he seems to have unpainted, unfinished and/or unbased models on his side too, IMHO he doesn't have a $300 dollar resin leg to stand on, frankly...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you agreed to play against a model, don't get pissy if it kills your model. This includes the scratchbuild you agreed to play against, and the Grot that kills your Terminator. Please apply this to any scenario where you get upset after the fact.

I'm not disputing this part, this specific person behaved extremely poorly and the OP is right to not want them back ever again. However, they did have a valid point about the paper titan and I can understand entirely why they'd be annoyed about the situation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If you agreed to play against a model, don't get pissy if it kills your model. This includes the scratchbuild you agreed to play against, and the Grot that kills your Terminator. Please apply this to any scenario where you get upset after the fact.

I'm not disputing this part, this specific person behaved extremely poorly and the OP is right to not want them back ever again. However, they did have a valid point about the paper titan and I can understand entirely why they'd be annoyed about the situation.

What was their valid point, exactly? A model they'd agreed to play beat them. Simple as that. They agreed to its presence on the table, and only changed that view when it started to be effective. This is pathetic behaviour, in my view. If you agree, you can't un-agree later because it doesn't suit you.

However, they did have a valid point about the paper titan and I can understand entirely why they'd be annoyed about the situation.

Like what? Someone else's model blew up their precious Forgeworld warhound? That's the point of the frigging game. A player being butthurt about the aggressor being a "cheap paper model" when theirs cost a ton of money is a direct result of lacking any other legitimate reason to complain. Especially when they agree to letting that exact model be in play.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
They all end up being about how Forgeworld models are the most legitimate, because they are expensive and take tons of time to build and paint, and how scratchbuilders and papercrafters are trying to horn in on the game with something inexpensive and cheaply thrown together.

That's because many scratchbuilders are bringing something cheaply thrown together with minimal effort. Yes, there are talented scratchbuilders who produce awesome models (after spending way more effort on them than it would take to build the "real" model), but let's be honest here: most people scratchbuilding Apocalypse stuff just found the rules for overpowered D-weapon spam and want to win games without having to invest a lot of effort into it. Their cardboard "titans" are just a bunch of boxes glued into the general shape of a titan with no detail/painting/etc, just to get their powerful unit on the table asap and start "building" the next one. And even the "good" papercraft models are still seriously lacking.

So yes, there's some justifiable annoyance when you spend a huge amount of effort building and painting an awesome centerpiece model and then someone else brings one they spent 15 minutes building the night before the game because it has awesome rules.

I think the paper titan is brilliant when I saw it, I think what some people have to understand is that some people really cannot afford an £800 Titan from FW, I mean I would love a Chaos Reaver Titan but if I tried to buy one it would take me at least 4+ years to get one, and even then no one plays Apoc events at my FLGS so it would be a waste of time unfortunately, but my main point is that for some people, if they want it but cant afford it the paper route is where they will go and I support this, for me it dosnt matter about skill as long as you tell me where the weapons are then im all for it.

Then if you can't afford one (and can't build one that is the same quality) don't play with a titan. There's no rule that Apocalypse games have to have titans, in fact they're probably better balanced if you don't.

All I gotta say to that is

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Like what? Someone else's model blew up their precious Forgeworld warhound? That's the point of the frigging game. A player being butthurt about the aggressor being a "cheap paper model" when theirs cost a ton of money is a direct result of lacking any other legitimate reason to complain. Especially when they agree to letting that exact model be in play.

Like the fact that someone threw together a minimal-effort proxy for a powerful unit and immediately used it to kill their real model. It's not about money, it's about effort. The player with the FW titan spent a lot of effort on making an awesome model, the player with the paper titan spent very little effort on building it and didn't even bother to paint it. So yes, it's legitimate to be annoyed that you spent a ton of effort on something while someone else gets the same benefits with a model I wouldn't even allow on the table if I was running the event.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This is pathetic behaviour, in my view. If you agree, you can't un-agree later because it doesn't suit you.

Again, I'm not justifying their TFG behavior. The person in the OP has behavior problems that go way beyond the paper titan, and the OP is entirely justified in banning them from future games.

However, that does not change the fact that they had a legitimate point about the paper titan being inappropriate.

 StormK wrote:
White Dwarf #53 had templates and instructions for building a Warhound Titan.

WD #98 was the first issue with Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader. Didn't think time travel had been invented back then. Who knew?

It's possible it was in a later WD, but I really get the feeling the "WD #53" comment was to legitimize the model as "sanctioned" by GW, not because GW actually created blueprints.

In any case, I hope he keeps working on it, it's definitely got potential.

I actually had a game like this recently. I brought a FW titan and someone had a warhound built out of plasticard parts.

I did not raise a fit (like BB), I told him it looked alright, et cetera, and I didn't mention a thing.

But I did feel bad, as if I had wasted money, that I had spent the money on an actual Forge World model, and I wanted to ask him "why? Why would you make a Warhound out of plasticard?"

Honestly it seems (to Peregrine and I) that this type of person simply wants a Warhound so that they can have a quad-turbolaser platform for apocalypse. Not so that they can have a centerpiece model (as they, in my experience, do not look remotely as awesome as the real thing).

That's just how it appears though, I'm sure I'm overgeneralizing or something.

Unit1126PL... Some (many) people can't afford a titan. So, a great conversion out of card can be a good substitute for an Apocalypse game.

Dreamforge is changing all this, anyhow, with their cheap Crusader (although not as large as a Warhound, it would do in a pinch, I think, or work with custom rules).

For myself, I don't have the skill to make an excellent card conversion, so I'd either buy the model if I wanted to use one, or more likely buy an alternate model and convert it (probably Dreamforge, or similar).

 RiTides wrote:
Unit1126PL... Some (many) people can't afford a titan. So, a great conversion out of card can be a good substitute for an Apocalypse game.

Why though? Are Titans a prerequisite for apocalypse and I just missed the memo?

Not a prerequisite, but I don't think I'd bother playing Apocalypse without a superheavy of some kind (meaning, over a normal game of 40k). They seem to be pretty darn scary... also, kind of the point of playing Apocalypse is to get to pull out the big guns

 RiTides wrote:
Not a prerequisite, but I don't think I'd bother playing Apocalypse without a superheavy of some kind (meaning, over a normal game of 40k). They seem to be pretty darn scary... also, kind of the point of playing Apocalypse is to get to pull out the big guns

Not all superheavies are titans. If you can hold off buying 2 Leman Russ tanks, or 1.33 Land Raiders, then buy yourself a Shadowsword and run it as the Iron Saint.

Like the fact that someone threw together a minimal-effort proxy for a powerful unit and immediately used it to kill their real model. It's not about money, it's about effort. The player with the FW titan spent a lot of effort on making an awesome model, the player with the paper titan spent very little effort on building it and didn't even bother to paint it. So yes, it's legitimate to be annoyed that you spent a ton of effort on something while someone else gets the same benefits with a model I wouldn't even allow on the table if I was running the event.

What happens if I have an expensive Forgeworld resin tank that took several hours to paint on top of tons of conversion work to make unique, and some guy gets lucky and kills it with a stock plastic Space Marine Predator that he assembled and painted in 1/10th of the time, to a standard I would not deem acceptable if it were in my army? Nothing. 40k is a game and I still have a cool model i spent lots of effort on. I would just focus on what good things my cool conversion had "done" for me in other circumstances, not talk about how mine is so much better because of the effort and money I spent on it.

We obviously know you take the hard line when it comes to the hobby, but that's not all there is. I would happily put together a lower-cost titan (plasticard, not paper- for structural reasons) if all I was going to use it for is random giant fun games. I would rather spend my modelling effort on the forces that I will use regularly on the table, than some multi-hundred dollar figure that I use twice a year - if I was lucky.

Especially in this situation, where by looking at the pics, the unpainted paper Warhound shared a table with bunches of unpainted figures, and the actual Forgeworld Warhound looks like it has about 4 colors in it's paint-job. It's hardly the single eyesore.

As this is all a bunch of opinions, here's mine.

First, I don't really care what the paper titan was made of or how it looked. If the TO thought it was OK then it was acceptable for play. At that point 545 had a choice: either play that game or not. Either way there was no room for 545 to complain about anything. If the other players thought the paper titan was crap and shouldn't be allowed, then it was up to all of them to talk to the TO about it and get a ruling.

Next, I couldn't care less if my opponent has actual GW models or not. In today's pricing environment, coupled with the fact that GW has dropped all tournament support, I've actually encouraged people to go outside of GW to pick up models.

The only real thing I'm a stickler about is that they have their codex and rule book. IMHO, if they are playing this game then they should have the appropriate rules on hand and those rules should not have been stolen. After all, GW claims that their models are about "collecting" and that gaming is a distant secondary after thought. (side note, I lost count of the number of times the words "collect", "collection" and "collecting" were used in the latest white dwarf. They were seriously pounding on that concept.) If GW's perspective is that their models are only really targeted at collectors then my opinion is that those models should be bought, assembled, painted and promptly placed in glass case never to come out again; in the meantime I intend to play a game.

Third, although I prefer playing against painted armies, this doesn't prevent me from enjoying a game against an unpainted one. Heck, I've played against armies painted by people wanting to sell their painting services that I honestly wished they had simply left primed; they were that bad... (side note: if you are trying to sell your painting services at an event, showing up with a white army which looks very much like it was painted with dried toothpaste and certainly didn't even bother to trim the mold lines from is probably not a good idea). I have a few kids that play this game. My 9 year old started when he was 6 with Tyranids. I showed him the basics of building and painting and he went to town and they certainly look like a 6 year old did it and quite frankly that's ok. I've taken him to a couple tournaments and I am very happy to say that everyone was encouraging with him.

Another side note: we have a few basic rules in our house with regards to games. The first is No Crying, especially when that favored unit bites it. I can't stand crying/whining/pouting or anything of that nature and simply have a no tolerance policy. As a TO, I would have bounced the guy the moment he threw a fit; he wouldn't have had a choice but to leave. The next one is be gracious in winning and an outstanding loser. It's okay to mourn your loses but at the same time it's important to celebrate the winner as long as everything is respectful. I'd probably send 545 to bed for that display and would have pulled 40k "privileges" until he could show a bit of maturity.

Next, kudos to the kid that built that paper titan. I have respect for anyone that attempts to scratch build a model regardless of material used. It's hard; really hard. Even if he only spent "3 days" on it, I would still congratulate him on his progress. As you can tell I am by no means a snob. Yes, I can buy that FW titan. Yes, I can even afford to have a good painter make it look far better than I could. However, none of that precludes my ability to recognize that others aren't so well off and certainly it doesn't stop me from respecting those that try to get into this game by any *legal* means necessary. At the end of the day, I have a much higher regard for a partially completed scratch built army/unit than I do for a professionally painted FW army. Mainly because I know money can buy damn near everything, but putting time in to do things yourself has a tremendous amount of personal value. Which leads to the next thing: trying to compare "3 days" of time for one person to "weeks" of time to another is impossible. None of us know what 3 days of time meant to that kid. Maybe it was nothing, or maybe he put off other important things he could have been doing just to be able to join this experience. For all I know he has some serious ADD and focusing on anything for "3 days" is a herculean task.

Ultimately, what matters to me is the player across the table. That is who I'm engaging with for the next 2+ hours, not the silly pieces of plastic/resin/whatever; those are the side show.

Exactly- though you say it more eloquently than me.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This is pathetic behaviour, in my view. If you agree, you can't un-agree later because it doesn't suit you.

Again, I'm not justifying their TFG behavior. The person in the OP has behavior problems that go way beyond the paper titan, and the OP is entirely justified in banning them from future games.

However, that does not change the fact that they had a legitimate point about the paper titan being inappropriate.

You're still missing my point.
Ignore the extra behavourial issues quoted.
Ignore the models in question.

If you set the expectation that ANY model is not agreeable and refuse upfront: no issue.
If you agree to play against ANY model and bitch when it beats you, well, you only have yourself to blame.

It's really that simple. You can get as angry as you like at others, you should only really be angry at yourself as you created that situation by agreeing to play that game. Just spending more money than your opponent does not entitle you to win. All it entitles you to is fewer opponents as no-one will want to play against you if your toys leave the pram regularly.

 SabrX wrote:
I wonder if anyone would argue against a Warhound titan built out of Games Workshop 40k paper box sets. Clearly it's 100% 40k product.

What an awesome idea! Roflmao.

Short answer, he got beat by the rules, not the model. Players shouldn't whine if something they agree to play against gets used better then what they have.

CLively:
Your post is the clearest expression of my opinion on the entire hobby. I got into this hobby because of the fun I was having. Back in the day all GW models looked like crap but we had so much fun.

To update everyone this guy is notorious for his hissy fits and arguments over ridiculous things. As an organizer of the event I was upset that his behaviour was so bad after so many concessions had been made for his benefit. He is a notoriously bad loser and an even worse winner. He has a reputation at a number of game stores in the area and he is usually the source of conflict everywhere he goes. Everyone in our game group has agreed that they do not want him in any future club-sanctioned games.

With that in mind I realize the hobby has changed and is no longer what it used to be. I feel like I should find another game because GW games seem to attract people like 545 and so many have begun to take this "game" too seriously.

I give him credit for the build. I don't play 40k, and it looks like similar enough to the forgeworld one that I'd accept it.

As to the argument that 'he only wanted it to get a D-weapons platform!', I feel as though you're assign prior wrongs done via powergaming to you to this individual.

It was a casual fun game? It was just a mock up with friends?

If it was not, you are playing this wrong, 40k is not designed for competitive play..

If it was just for fun, why care about it? The guy who paid more have a better model, the guy who made it from cardstock have "nice" model. The guy who feel "offended" by the cardstock titan is bitching...

If I had bought in a forgeworld titan for an apocalypse game and somebody else bought in a scratch build I usually wouldn't care and enjoy the game. Although if the scratch build was poor quality, sure I would be slightly annoyed because I like 40k for the cool miniatures and seeing decently painted armies on the table top but I would never get all butthurt about it like 545 did and the most important rule of any hobby is to have fun.

Kudos to Clively, you basically expressed my opinion better than I could have ever done !

I'd play people with scratchbuilt stuff all the time it's the fun that counts not how much you spent on your models and if they are the official ones or not.

My opinions exactly clively, it was allowed and widely excepted beforehand so no whining. Just have fun, that's what apocalypse games are about.

I was up at my FLGS yesterday. Someone had a paper Caestus they had just assembled. It actually looked better quality than most of the FW ones I've seen. It was really quite striking.

I'd play against paper stuff any day.

 StormK wrote:
White Dwarf #53 had templates and instructions for building a Warhound Titan.
A friend of mine spent three days building his Warhound using the GW guides and fielded it in our recent Apocalypse game.
Another player fielded a FW Warhound and was upset that the paper Titan was allowed.

This was not a GW tournament. It was not a store-run event. It was just a big game we all worked together to plan and play.

Who is right?
Is the paper Titan considered a GW model since they were the ones who released the instructions in the first place?

To this general question, answer: the paper titan, if made with GW released templates, is by definition a GW model. Nothing in this world should disallow it unless it is stated otherwise in a tournament or game participation requisites.

Well built or not. Even the best kit can be horribly built or paint so no coolness factor should rule it out. BTW, while today GW can release kits for each and every vehicle on their books, it was not always like this, or it may not be so even today. So scratch built models dating from a time like that should be allowed, as long as they are clearly recognisable as a given vehicle.

I'm sad nobody took a picture of such a whiner packing up and leaving the house for our enjoyment.

I own a few FW titans. I bought them for the collector-ship and hobby aspect, not as a gaming piece (but I would use them in APOC games)

I've seen the "paper" titans, and scratch built titans that players put together for gaming and have no problem with them. Most of them look like
just what they are, playing pieces. When I bring my titans into the shop all eyes are on it; Armorcast/Paper Titans usually are left alone.
That's the hobby aspect. It my Titan is blown apart by a paper titan, that's the gaming aspect..

This thread seems more like an opportunity to complain about 545 than any real issue; You and the group had already accepted the scratchbuilt titan, so it's not about legitimacy?

When you play Apocalypse, anything goes.

 StormK wrote:

To update everyone this guy is notorious for his hissy fits and arguments over ridiculous things. As an organizer of the event I was upset that his behaviour was so bad after so many concessions had been made for his benefit. He is a notoriously bad loser and an even worse winner. He has a reputation at a number of game stores in the area and he is usually the source of conflict everywhere he goes. Everyone in our game group has agreed that they do not want him in any future club-sanctioned games.

I think you've identified the primary problem: 545's attitude.

I think you've also identified the primary solution: Don't play with him any more.

Best of luck!