nightfighting is enabled. pg 124
a barrage weapon (pg 34) is firing at a ork unit 30" away.
the orks have a KFF mek in the unit. grants a 5+ cover.

Clearly any barrage shots count as the shot coming from the center of the blast marker, therefore nightfighting's stealth/shrouded will never have any effect for a unit hit with a barrage weapon.

RAW 5+ in the situation you describe.

5+. For the purposes of determining cover you treat the shot as coming from the center of the Barrage marker.

The distance between the two units grants the target unit stealth? so the unit should have stealth with the kff even if the shot is considered to come from the center of the blast.

I could've sworn this came up before. IIRC since the distance from the firing unit to the target is used (not from the firing model) they would still get Stealth/Shrouding. Also considering that when an attack scatters you use the distance from the firing unit to the original target to determine effect.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The distance between the two units grants the target unit stealth? so the unit should have stealth with the kff even if the shot is considered to come from the center of the blast.

Not for Barrage weapons, because "For the purposes of determining cover you treat the shot as coming from the center of the Barrage marker. " (rigeld2)

Found it, here. It came out just after the change is disruptor pods.

 Happyjew wrote:
Found it, here. It came out just after the change is disruptor pods.

thanks for finding that, I'll give it a read

Basically the argument against gaining Stealth/Shrouded is (as DR and rigeld put it) the shot is considered to becoming from the centre hole, which since it is always within 12" will deny stealth/shrouded.
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

Do have in mind allot of barrage weapons have IGNORE COVER. if not, 5 due it lands in the center.

I'm most definitely on the side of the target gaining Stealth/Shrouded. There's a whole list of reasons to support this.
As mentioned before, you establish if the unit has Stealth/shrouded during the targeting stage, long before the final position of the template is established.
Also you determine cover saves from the centre of the blast. Stealth is not a cover save (it grants a cover save, but is not a cover save itself, it's a Special Rule).
Determining cover saves from the blast is completely different to working out if a unit benefits from Stealth/Shrouded via NightFighting.

 Happyjew wrote:
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

So if I target a unit at 13" (giving the target Stealth at this point) and the shot scatters to a unit at 11", Stealth is granted to the unit that was hit?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The argument for is that Stealth/Shrouded is determined when picking a target. Since the firing unit picks a target and that gives the "victims" the special rule, then barrage has no effect on denying stealth/shrouded.

So if I target a unit at 13" (giving the target Stealth at this point) and the shot scatters to a unit at 11", Stealth is granted to the unit that was hit?

yep pg 124, the original target is used to determine what effect night fighting has.

Anything that effects the cover save is governed by the Barrage Rules on P. 34.

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore anytime we need to determine what a unit's cover save is, we "assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

So the orks in the OP will have a 5+ as we look at the center of the marker, instead of the firing unit to determine how far away the shot came from.

However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

Premise 1: Shots always come from the firing unit (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Since Shots always come from the firing unit, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing unit must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

It says to "always assume" therefore the center of the marker is counted as the firing unit, as that is where the shots are coming from.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
However, the target unit will also possibly have Stealth or Shrouded based on the distance from the firing unit.

Premise 1: Shots always come from the firing unit (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Since Shots always come from the firing unit, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing unit must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

It says to "always assume" therefore the center of the marker is counted as the firing unit, as that is where the shots are coming from.

No, shots come from the firing models. Otherwise if a unit was exactly 24" away from its target, all models that are further back would be able to fire 24" range weapons.

Also you assume the shot is coming from the centre hole instead of the firing model. Or are you claiming that if a unit fires a barrage weapon and a non-barrage weapon that all shots (including the non-barrage) are treated as coing from the hole?

Okay Premise 1: Shots come from the firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

 Happyjew wrote:
Also you assume the shot is coming from the centre hole instead of the firing model.

Actually that is Exactly what the P.34 barrage rules say. "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Since Shots always come from the firing model, in the case of a barrage weapon, the firing model must be the center of the marker, as we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

So the firing model is the center of the blast marker for barrage purposes.

Which would mean (since we are treating the centre hole as a member of the firing unit), they would also not get stealth/shrouded from non-barrage attacks since the unit as a whole is now well within 12". Furthermore it would allow you to allocate non-barrage wounds to models that are completely out of sight from the firing unit.

I can't see the described situation. What was it?

 Idolator wrote:
I can't see the described situation. What was it?

a unit with a barrage weapon fires at a unit of orks 30" away within a KFF. so 5+ cover save

because the two units are 30" apart the orks should have shroud.

Others think that having a barrage weapon negates the shroud granted by nightfighting due to the distance between the units.

 Happyjew wrote:
Which would mean (since we are treating the centre hole as a member of the firing unit), they would also not get stealth/shrouded from non-barrage attacks since the unit as a whole is now well within 12". Furthermore it would allow you to allocate non-barrage wounds to models that are completely out of sight from the firing unit.

You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

This isn't a rule anywhere in the book. The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted, and where wounds are allocated. There is nothing to say that you ever treat the center of the model 'as the firing' unit for all shooting. It is incorrect to make such an assumption based off of the line 'always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker' without listing the two exceptions to the normal rules for shooting. Nothing in the Barrage rules removes Stealth or Shroud for units that have them, nor does it grant any permission to ever say that you treat the entire shot as coming from the center of the blast, as if it comes from the firing model. The shot still comes from the firing model with the only exceptions being the 2 listed. You only check to see if the unit has a Cover save, then modify it by Stealth/Shroud. Then when you fail the appropriate save, we know which models to assign wounds to first.

To simplify. We treat the shot as coming from the center of the Blast, but only to determine if the unit has a cover save, and when we allocate wounds. That's all the Barrage rules give us permission to do. Everything else follows the normal shooting rules, and that includes determining whether a unit has Stealth/Shroud. The Night Fighting rules are quite clear on this. The second to the last line under Night Fight supports this, 'if a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting grants. Not 'where the shot lands'. In the above example, you shoot the unit that is 30" away and it scatters to a unit that is 20" away. That unit that is 20" away counts the distance from the firing unit, not the shot, when determining whether Night Fight applies Stealth/Shroud.

To further clarify that they DO get Shroud and Stealth, even with Barrage weapons, we look at these rules. Units with these rules, count their cover save as being 1(or 2 respectively) points better than their existing cover save. Both of these rules also go on to clearly state that they grant a 6+ (5+) ALWAYS, even if in the open. Since the Barrage rules only permit to check for which units have Cover at the time the shot lands, and never for Stealth and Shroud, they are still there. So even by the RAW listed under these rules, your Barrage scatters, they hit a unit behind a building, that unit is in the open, Stealth / Shroud ALWAYS grant them a 6+/5+ save, minimum. In the case of the KFF, they have a 5+ cover save, and they get the bonus for Stealth/Shroud, since Stealth/Shroud have nothing to do with where the shot actually lands.

The only BRB rule that even comes close to getting around the Stealth/Shroud bonus is the 'Ignores Cover' rule. Even this rule, doesn't remove Stealth / Shroud. It simply says that cover saves of any kind cannot be taken. They still always have it, they just can't use it.

It seems pretty clear to me that barrage (and only barrage) weapons would not grant an enhanced cover save in this case, but I've been wrong before.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that barrage (and only barrage) weapons would not grant an enhanced cover save in this case, but I've been wrong before.

And according to the poll, there are others who feel that way. I fully understand WHY people see Barrage as overriding the Night Fight rules. The rules behind it doing so aren't as strongly supported as Stealth/Shroud still being in effect.

It's an oversimplification of 'Well since we treat the shot as coming from the center, we treat everything as coming from the center.' when no mention or permission is given to actually do so.

I think Deathreaper is right on this one. I was undecided and thought it could have gone either way until.....

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

ALWAYS ignore the model firing model and use the center or the blast marker. Everyone wants to add "unless it is night fighting" ........... I don't see that anywhere.

 Akar wrote:
Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

This does not matter for barrage.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted...

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Shroud / Stealth are not given as a 'cover' save or as a result of cover, from Night Fighting. They are granted simply by the distance from the firing model to the target. Regardless of of the type of shot, the target units have this rule because of Night Fight, not because they are in cover.

This does not matter for barrage.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You only treat the center hole as a member of the firing unit for barrage as barrage says to assume the shot comes from the center, but it only says that in the rules for barrage, no mention of that in the blast rules.

The Barrage rules only give permission to change three things from normal shooting. Shoot something out of LoS with rules for firing within minimum range, determine where the cover save is granted...

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Premise 1: Correct.
Premise 2: Partially correct. LOS dependent cover saves depend on where the shot is coming from. Gaining Stealth or Shrouded is independent of which direction the shot is coming from and dependent on how far the original target is from the firing unit.

Mythra wrote:
I think Deathreaper is right on this one. I was undecided and thought it could have gone either way until.....

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

ALWAYS ignore the model firing model and use the center or the blast marker. Everyone wants to add "unless it is night fighting" ........... I don't see that anywhere.

Yes the shot is considered to come from the center of the marker,

the model is still 30" away.

as the two units are 30" away the unit gains shroud.

stealth and shroud are granted based on distance between units, barrage does not change the distance between the units.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Premise 1: Correct.
Premise 2: Partially correct. LOS dependent cover saves depend on where the shot is coming from. Gaining Stealth or Shrouded is independent of which direction the shot is coming from and dependent on how far the original target is from the firing unit.

Therefore since we agree on #1, then the center of a barrage should be considered the firing model, as barrage is a specific special case within the rules.

Therefore stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center was the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

What you're trying to convince people is that the Stealth / Shroud effect is tied to the distance from the shot, treating them as a cover save when they're not. They are modifiers to an existing cover save. In order for this to be true, then Barrage would have to follow it's own shooting rules. Is the Barrage rule it's own firing steps, or is simply just permissions/exemptions to the normal firing rules? You treat the shot as coming from the center of the model, when determining the cover save, and where wound allocation occurs. These are the only exceptions to the normal shooting rules granted by Barrage, and doesn't extend to anything else that would modify the normal shooting rules, which is what Night Fight does. No permission is given to treat everything from the center of the template, which you're attempting to do.

Can you still fire a Barrage weapon more than 36" away during a Night Fight? No, you can't. This supports that the Barrage rules are still affected by Night Fight before the shot is even fired. We only have permission to shoot something that is out of LoS, and anything that's more than 36" doesn't count as being out of LoS, it simply cannot be picked as a target. It's a flat restriction that all shooting is affected by. Just like a unit benefiting from Stealth / Shroud, it's a flat rule that is granted by the distance from the firing model to the target, with nothing changing to where any shot lands. Clarified under the Night Fight rules, by checking to see that the bonuses are granted to the original target, and not where the shot lands. Where the shot lands, has no bearing on whether a unit gets Stealth / Shroud.

The Night Fight rules grants additional effects to the shooting rules, which Barrage weapons are affected by. You measure the distance from the firing model to grant Stealth / Shroud. As has already been demonstrated, Barrage weapons are affected by the Night Fight rules, and no mention is made of ever check to see where the Night Fight range is measured from. You're relying on the assumption that since cover and wounds come from the center of the blast, that the Stealth/Shroud effect must also be measured from the center of the blast. There is nothing to say one way or the other, but there is stronger support to show that it doesn't, which is what we have to go on until they address it. Even in the Night fight rules, it says that units within 12" can be shot at normally. Are you shooting the a unit with a Barrage Weapon that is within 12"? No, so the Night Fight rules supersede the normal rules, and the unit you're shooting at still has Stealth / Shroud bonus regardless of where the shot lands.

I agree with Death Reaper's reasoning, from both a RAW and RAI perspective.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

I can see the support for Barrage removing Stealth / Shroud from a RAI perspective, I've read all the rules involved, and it makes sense. Even if that is the case, I feel the RAI is to grant Stealth / Shroud for gameplay purposes There is insufficient RAW to support prevening Night Fight when compared to the RAW supporting that it doesn't remove Stealth / Shroud.

Stating that the RAW is that you measure the Night Fight distance from the center of the template is false, and doesn't exist anywhere in the book.

 DeathReaper wrote:

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

The conclusion relies on the assumption that the Barrage rules affect more than Checking for Cover, and Wound Allocation. Which isn't supported anywhere in the book.

Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

This is completely incorrect. The distance involved is determining whether Special Rules apply to the unit, not whether it has cover. Being 30" determines that the target unit has Shrouded, which can affect a cover save, but Shrouded/Stealth are not "Cover".

They grant cover saves in and of themselves, and thus I believe that they are included in terms of what the barrage rules apply to and modify.

This is another of those poorly worded rules. The rules for Night fight make reference to UNIT only.

The Rules for blast and barage make reference to MODEL only.


It's the same argument as the Out of Sight rule. It also references UNIT only.

Obviously the rules for blast and barrage were intended to be exceptions to either of these rules. You can tell it because they have their own rules written outside of the normal rules for shooting.

Once again it's writters making rules that make sense in and of themselves but do not take into account other rules that exist in the book. BAD EDITOR!!!!!!

I'm not getting involved beyond this.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

Yes they do when checking for cover. So they are applied, not granted, when checking for cover. The target unit already benefits from Stealth/Shroud when checking for Night Fight, which is from the firing model, not the firing shot. The only things we treat the firing shot is when determining what cover save the unit actually has, not whether they get Stealth / Shroud as a result of Night Fight. They apply their rules independently of each other.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

So you disagree with this statement "Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from."

So how do we determine cover saves, if not from where the shots are coming from?

Remember the cover rules state that a model is allocated a wound that model will get a cover save if it is"at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" (The firer is where the shots are coming from).

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker. "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

Premise #2 is solid, you can disagree with it, but you do not have any rules that back your position of disagreement.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

So you disagree with this statement "Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from."

So how do we determine cover saves, if not from where the shots are coming from?

Remember the cover rules state that a model is allocated a wound that model will get a cover save if it is"at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" (The firer is where the shots are coming from).

Premise #2 is solid.

Not all cover saves are determined from where the shot comes from.
Stealth, Shrouded, Jink, KFF etc. etc. none of these require the model to be obscured, or even care where the shot comes from.
So yes I disagree with Premise #2, it is incomplete.

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

Yes the shot.
That does not mean "shot = firing model"
The firing model is still capable of being the firing model. No rule changes that.

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

no its instead of the firing model, where is the firing model? some 30" away. ergo shroud is granted to the unit. You then determine cover, ie a KFF 5+ shroud modifies it to 3+.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

That's quite a leap.
It says the shot comes from the centre. No more, nothing equating it to firing unit.

Also when are the effects of Night Fighting worked out?
Page 124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting"
During the targeting stage of shooting.
So the unit already has Stealth/Shrouded long before the final position of the blast is established.
Since Stealth cares not when the shot comes from, it really is irrelevant if the centre of the blast is the firing unit or not.

I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to premise 1, if you agree the two units are 30" apart.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Right, we've established that the shot comes from the blast.
Now where does it state the Firing unit is no longer the Firing unit? And shots can ONLY come from Firing units?

So Premise 1 & 2 are flawed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Nobody is arguing where the shot is coming from. i'm not sure why you are hung up on where the shot comes from to determine if the target unit is 12"+ away from the firing unit.

The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

Right, so the shot comes from the blast, but the firing unit is still the firing unit. Which is where night fighting is determined from (long bother the blast is placed I might add).

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

Traceoftoxin's argument is the most convincing in my opinion.

Night Fight rules state that you cannot pick a target over 36". It then goes on to say that if the target is between 12" and 24" the target unit has the Stealth special rule, if over 24" the unit has shrouded.

At this point we haven't rolled to hit, haven't placed a blast marker, haven't done anything in the way of shooting other than picking a target. Picking the target is what bestows the Stealth/Shrouded special rule. Since the target picked in the OP's scenario was 30" away they have the Shrouded special rule until the units firing is complete.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Which is irrelevant to the fact that the target unit has already gained stealth/shrouded when it was measured to be X distance away, Before the shot was even fired.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Yes, but (and I quote) To Determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, (That's important, because that's what we're doing) and when determining wound allocation always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model.

So normally, yes shots come from firing models

Premise 1: We are determining whether a unit is allowed a cover save (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

But when determining whether a unit is allowed a cover save the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker.

Where are the connections being made that:
A) Night Fight is granting a cover save? - It doesn't grant a cover save, it grants Stealth / Shroud, which modify an existing cover save, even if there isn't one.
*The premises made by Deathreaper are misleading in that he's getting us to agree that we check for cover saves from the center of the blast. Which is 100% correct. If we somehow think that they don't get Stealth or Shroud, then we're disagreeing with a premise that makes no mention of what the issue is. The fact remains that Barrage doesn't check for whether a unit has Stealth / Shroud, that's still done from the firing model, not the shot.

B) That we determine Night Fight from the center of a blast on Barrage?
*There needs to be some permission for the Barrage rule to extend to anything beyond checking for cover, or wound allocation. Everything else, which includes Night Fight, is still done from the firing model. Or are you actually implying we check LoS from the center of the blast marker, after the shot from the firing model is already used to determine whether the target unit is in LoS. There is no reason to ever treat everything from the center of the blast as if it's the firing model. When LoS is still determined from the firing model, and not the shot. It's own rule states that not everything is done from the center of the blast.

C) That Night Fight is determined as anywhere other than from the model that is making the attack?
* Read the Night fight rules, it only addresses picking a target, and the distance from the firing model, not the shot, is what determines whether a unit is granted Stealth / Shroud. After you've resolved the shot, you've already picked the target, and determined if the target has Stealth or Shroud. Or are you trying to convince us that you've picked your target, after you've resolved the shot, based on where the center of the template ends up?

Using the Barrage rule to get around Stealth / Shroud granted by Night fight, doesn't make any sense, no matter which way you apply it, look at it, dissect it, tear it apart.

Both Night Fight and LoS are done from the firing model. Neither the Night Fight rule, nor the Barrage rule change this.

I think the issue is interpetation of the phrase "comes from" the blast marker. This could be seen as the blast marker itself being the origin of the attack, but to me its clearly just the DIRECTION the attack comes from. This, to me, is evident in that they mention determining wound allocation and cover saves, which both require knowing the direction damage is coming from

Stealth/Shrouded is granted basted on distance between units, not distance from where the shot came from. Determining if the unit is 'in cover' does care where the shot came from.

It 'coming from center of the blast marker' and 'as if the unit were at the center of the blast marker' are not the same at all. Equating the two to be equal is incorrect.

In any case the special rule is granted before the blast marker is placed so unless the weapon has the ability to ignore cover saves there is nothing to deny them the ability.

 Abandon wrote:
Stealth/Shrouded is granted basted on distance between units, not distance from where the shot came from. Determining if the unit is 'in cover' does care where the shot came from.

It 'coming from center of the blast marker' and 'as if the unit were at the center of the blast marker' are not the same at all. Equating the two to be equal is incorrect.

In any case the special rule is granted before the blast marker is placed so unless the weapon has the ability to ignore cover saves there is nothing to deny them the ability.

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

Which rule? None do.
You mean this one:
"When determining whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Would allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Is that the one you mean?
That's saying the shot is coming from the blast, and the firing model is still the firing model.
Night Fighting requires "the shooting unit" not where their shot is coming from.

That rule most certainly does not make shot = firing unit, in fact the oppersite as both are show to be seperate.

Despite this, Night Fighting is still determined during the targeting stage of shooting, long before the final position of a blast marker is established. So it really matters not.

Yes the same one I quoted earlier:

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

The rule equates The shot with the firing model. This is because it says Instead of the firing model the shot is coming from the marker, therefore the center of the marker is equated to where the shot is coming from. It equates firing model and center of the marker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes the same one I quoted earlier:

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

The rule equates The shot with the firing model. This is because it says Instead of the firing model the shot is coming from the marker, therefore the center of the marker is equated to where the shot is coming from. It equates firing model and center of the marker.

It says the shot is from the blast, not the firing model.
The shot. Nothing else.
Nothing there states that the firing model is no longer the firing model. The rule most certainly does not equate the two, but show them as separate. The shot usually comes from the firing unit, but now no longer does. They are not the same thing.
Either way it is still irrelevant.

And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

Normally yes, which rule says this is the only place?
The barrage rule says they can come from blast markers and not firing model.
Shot =\= firing model.

And this debate is STILL irrelevant.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

And what do you use to determine if a unit has Stealth or Shrouded from Night Fight? A: The firing unit.

Moving away from the irrelevant (and incorrect) notion that shots = firing units...

We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

And what do you use to determine if a unit has Stealth or Shrouded from Night Fight? A: The firing unit.

And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Since shots come from firing models, and in the case of a barrage marker we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

This is used "To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save" (34)

Therefore you determine cover saves from the center of the marker for a blase, aka as if the shot was coming (Originating) from the center of the marker.

This shows the shot does not come from the firing model, but instead comes from the center of the marker, and equates firing model with the center of the marker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

The rule changes were the shot comes from. It in no way stops the firing model from being the firing model. The rule shows that shot and firing model are now seperate. The blast is definitely not the firing model.

Regardless, at that stage the unit has already gained the Stealth/Shrouded SR, so this debate is irrelevant. A point that is constantly ignored.

DeathReaper wrote:And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

Your right and it did. Has nothing to do with the point though since you would treat it 'as if it came from the center of the blast marker' instead of the firing model only for the purpose of checking for cover. This still does not permit you to re-determine the range between units or remove stealth/shroud from the target.

grendel083 wrote:Moving away from the irrelevant (and incorrect) notion that shots = firing units...

We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

This^

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

You may not be reading the same rule.

The rules for Barrage equate the firing model with the center of the marker, here is why:

Shots come from firing models.

In the case of barrage the shots come from the center of the marker.

The firing model is used to determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal.

In the case of barrage where do you determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal? (The center of the marker).

The rules equate them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

You may not be reading the same rule.

The rules for Barrage equate the firing model with the center of the marker, here is why:

Shots come from firing models.

In the case of barrage the shots come from the center of the marker.

The firing model is used to determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal.

In the case of barrage where do you determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal? (The center of the marker).

The rules equate them.

The very rule you keep touting quite explicitly states it is only "To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save". Not for range between units. Does not take away special rules they have already been granted. You're just checking for cover from the center. Period.

So Stealth/Shrouded have nothing to do with cover saves?

If you determine if "a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save" you have to work out what that cover save is...

This is all a part of the shooting process, and only comes into play at the take saves step of the shooting process.

When you selected your target and determined range, that is when they get stealth/shroud. Then you roll for scatter and place the blast marker. At that point they already have the special rule and nothing says they lose it. You then check for cover from the center of the blast marker instead of the firing model.

 Abandon wrote:
When you selected your target and determined range, that is when they get stealth/shroud.

Citation needed, as this is not in the Stealth or Shrouded rules.

Shrouded says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal." P. 41

Stealth says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being I point better than normal." P. 42

 Abandon wrote:

grendel083 wrote:
We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

This^

When do you determine cover saves?

Well the shooting rules state that you determine cover saves "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

This is well after step 2. So you are incorrect you do not determine cover saves at step 2, you do it just before Step 5

...night fighting rules I'll get the page number when I get off work if you'd like.

You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2. You determine their cover save later by terrain and special rules... like stealth, shrouded or barrage, etc.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." they just say you have stealth or shrouded based on distance between the units. Therefore you determine cover saves just before Step 5.

For Barrage we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

The distance between firing unit (AKA Where the shots are coming from) is determined by the marker for a barrage.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." they just say you have stealth or shrouded based on distance between the units. Therefore you determine cover saves just before Step 5.

There is only one logical step to determine whether model has stealth or shrouded. And that is the same step where you determine can you target the opposing unit at all. Besides, we're not interested where the firing model is, we're interested where the firing unit is, and rules don't equate the friing unit being in the center of the blast at all.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For Barrage we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)
The distance between firing unit (AKA Where the shots are coming from) is determined by the marker for a barrage.

So according to you, all Barrage has infinite range? I mean, you claim that the center of the blast marker is the firing model, meaning that you if your Barrage weapon has 36" range, you can place it 100" away and it will still be on range of the "firing model".

The only wrinkle comes when the degenerate case applies, where you have a single model unit - there model is == to unit.

Edit: Luide - dont make that claim, as DR has been very clear on when you use the blast as where the shot comes from - and range is not one of them Dont strawman

"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

 Abandon wrote:
"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

LRMBT loves night fighting now... this really does change how I think of building my IG forces from now on.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

Except the Night rules clearly state that at the time of picking a target you determine if the target unit has the Stealth or Shrouded special rule generated by Night Fight.

The method of shooting during night fight is slightly different then normal.

1. Nominate one of your units to shoot.
2. Pick a target within range of your nominated units weapons, within LOS, within 36". If the target is 12"-24" away they gain the Stealth special rule. If the target unit is 24"-36" away they gain the Shrouded special rule.
3. Roll to hit. If firing a blast weapon, place the blast marker and roll for scatter. If the blast marker scatters, and hits a different unit, that unit gains the Stealth or Shrouded special rule the target unit gained due to Night Fighting.
4. Roll To Wound.
5. Allocate Wounds, roll saves (as allowed), and remove casualties. At this point we determine what saves (if any) the unit has. Does the unit have the Stealth or Shrouded special rule? Well that was already determined back in Step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

P124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting"
The title says its step 2 in the shooting sequence straight away. The rule then explains that this is done when picking a target. Everything about the rule on p124 puts it in step 2, I've no idea how you don't notice that.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

True they grant a cover save. Thy are not however a cover save themselves. They are a Special Rule, granted by Night Fighting.

I think pg 18 should be mentioned here as well.

what is determining cover saves.
checking 25% from point of view of the firer. then checking the cover chart to find the type of cover if any.

Barrage just makes the center of the blast the spot to check for the 25%. It does not modify the distance between the two units. which night fighting is based on to grant a special rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

Thy are not however a cover save themselves. They are a Special Rule, granted by Night Fighting.

The Stealth/Shrouded rules disagree with you. They are a cover save themselves even if you do not already have a cover save.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Stealth says "...Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is in the open." P. 42

Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.

Fragile wrote:
Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They are rules that grant a cover save.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

With exceptions of course.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.

If the unit has Stealth or Shrouded and the attack does not ignore cover then they give the unit a cover save.

Determining if the unit gets a cover save, and the value of that save, is done "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They are rules that grant a cover save.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

With exceptions of course.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.

If the unit has Stealth or Shrouded and the attack does not ignore cover then they give the unit a cover save.

Determining if the unit gets a cover save, and the value of that save, is done "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

And that changes the distance between the units how?

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

\

that doesn't change the distance between the units. it just changes the POV for the shot to determine if its 25% obscured or not. Where is the unit the model that fired the barrage? some 30" away.

pg 18 determine cover saves. nothing about distance there.

all you get permission to do from barrage is check for 25% cover, pg 18, and allocate from the center of the blast. It never changes the distance between the two units. And its the distance between the two units that determine stealth/shroud and even if the shot scatters, the two units use the distance at the time the shot was fired. pg 124 night fighting. "the distance from the firing unit to the original unit is used"

I know that I wasn't going to get in on this but, Hey! I have no conviction.

Anyway, This is one of those cases where there is no deffinetive. The two rules as written, diametricaly oppose one another.

One says that targets XX" from the firing UNIT get XX benefits.

The other says that the shot comes from Point X, not the firing MODEL.

One is obviously designed to take precedence over the other. Which one? It's a matter of opinion.

The same problem occurs in the Out of Sight rules vs Blast/Barrage rules.

Both instances have to be a matter of opinion as there is nothing that states which rule is to be considered over the other.

Can anyone show where either rule gives precedence over the other. IF you can't, then we're all just arguing opinion.

Editted to add punctuatuion.

It's pretty definite:
* If you are X inches away when picked as a target, you gain the Shrouded/Stealth rules. Which improves any covers saves you get from being obscured or gives a cover save when not.
* The blast marker's hole is used to to determine whether you gain a cover save from being 25" obscured.

The two things are not in conflict.

The blast marker doesn't negate the fact that you get Shrouded and/or Stealth.
It merely changes if you get a cover save from being obscured at step 5 (allocate wounds).

 Shandara wrote:
It's pretty definite:
* If you are X inches away when picked as a target, you gain the Shrouded/Stealth rules. Which improves any covers saves you get from being obscured or gives a cover save when not.
* The blast marker's hole is used to to determine whether you gain a cover save from being 25" obscured.

The two things are not in conflict.

The blast marker doesn't negate the fact that you get Shrouded and/or Stealth.
It merely changes if you get a cover save from being obscured at step 5 (allocate wounds).

Shroud and Stealth improve cover.

A unit that's obscured by a wall is hit from behind, due to the blast marker fired by a barrage weapon negating it's existing cover.

Once again it's the position of the blast the determines cover becase the shot comes from the center of the blast not the model. The rules for Night Fight reference units.

Which takes precedence the UNIT rule or the MODEL rule? This determination affects the rule for Blast/Barrage vs Out of Sight as well.

If you allow stealth and Shroud to take effect againt barrage attacks but then allow barrage weapons to wound models that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit then you are playing by house rules.

Except Shroud/Stealth specifically improve a cover save if there is none.

Nivek5150 wrote:
Except Shroud/Stealth specifically improve a cover save if there is none.

True enough. I edited that out. The rest still works.

Barrage Blasts do not negate ALL cover, they merely negate that comes from being obscured if the models are not obscured from the point of the center hole.

Shrouded/Stealth provide cover by themselves as well as improving existing cover. If the unit has either Stealth or both it gains a 6+/4+ cover save regardless of where the marker is, because if from the perspective of the center hole there is no obscuring they are 'in the open'.

It has no bearing on wounding models out of LoS.

 Shandara wrote:
Barrage Blasts do not negate ALL cover, they merely negate that comes from being obscured if the models are not obscured from the point of the center hole.

Shrouded/Stealth provide cover by themselves as well as improving existing cover. If the unit has either Stealth or both it gains a 6+/4+ cover save regardless of where the marker is, because if from the perspective of the center hole there is no obscuring they are 'in the open'.

It has no bearing on wounding models out of LoS.

That is ignoring the point that I made.

Both rules, Night Fight and Out of Sight rely on rules based on the realative position of the targeted unit in relation to the firing UNIT.

If you grant a unit stealth/shroud based on the relative position of the targeted unit to the firing unit, while ignoring the relative position of the targeted unit to the firing unit for out of Sight, then you are then just using a house rule.

As neither Night Fight nor Out of Sight take into consideration the position of the firing model and rely entirely on the position of the firing unit. They must be applied in the same manner.

The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

Set aside night fight for a moment. Do you agree that a unit with stealth or shrouded benefit from those rules against barrage weaponry? Of course you do barrage is not Ignores Cover.

Now we go back to night fighting. The night fighting rules grant stealth or shrouded under certain conditions. These conditions are determined before the blast marker exists. You can't use the blast marker to determine the distance to the target at this point since we haven't placed the blast marker yet, so even with the barrage rules you have to measure from the firing unit. At this point the unit has shrouded (they are 30" away in the OP). Now you can place the marker proceed as normal.

The target unit still has shrouded, you can't retroactively take it away. Since the target unit is under the effect of KFF and has shrouded it gets a 3+ cover save.

I also want to restate the rule on pg 34.

"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always consider the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Emphasis mine.

It does not say determining cover, only determining whether or not the unit wounded gets a cover save. This has no bearing on Night Fight.

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always consider the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Find permission for it to be used to calculate distanced from the firing unit to the target. Two very specific times are listed for when you consider the shot to be coming from the center of the blast.

Also, if you really want to lay into someone with your guard tanks in the middle of the night, all Chimeras come with searchlights by default.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The issue is timing. When you declare the shot is being taken, aka Step 2 of the Shooting sequence laid out on pg 12, the affected unit gains the Special Rule of either Stealth or Shrouded.

pg 124. ""If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has"". So regardless of where the scatter lands, the original distance is always used to determine what Special Rule was gained. This means that a barrage can scatter from a target 20" away onto a unit 8" away and that unit still has Stealth.

Now once the blast's location has been worked out you roll for wounds/saves, which is Step 5 of the shooting sequence. Then you use the center hole to determine whether there is cover or not. (Area terrain, ruins, etc...) Then you apply the Special rules to modify that cover save.

My question is: What causes the Night Fight rule to take precedence over the Barrage rule. I'm not saying that I disagree. I am saying that, if it does take precedence, the same case does indeed apply to Out of Sight taking precedence over Barrage as well. The rules work in exactly the same manner.

Sequence is the simple answer to this argument. In the Shooting Sequence you gain Stealth/shroud in step 2. In Step 5 is where you are working out cover saves. There is nothing in the Barrage rule that lets you go back to step 2. Once you have gained that rule, Barrage does not take it away. The blast marker is used for determining cover. The shot is determined to come from the center of the marker, but the unit already has Stealth. So even though the shot is only 2" away, the unit still gains any benefits of Stealth because the Stealth Special Rule does not have any requirements for distance.

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

5+ cover seems most sensible to me.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Yeah, the night fight and out of sight rules are in the same vein. They're both rules that reference units while blast/barrage only reference models. That's where I was going with it. If people don't treat them the same way, they're playing by house rules.

I'm of the opinion that Blasts and Barrage delivered blasts can wound models out of sight of the unit. I'm also of the opinion that models don't get stealth/shroud from barrage. It's consistent.

Changing how a rule works for one situation, without noting it as an exception, changes the whole paradigm of a rule. Since all exceptions made by players are not cannon they must then be considered house rules.

Its not consistent when you say that Barrage removes a special rule that was previously attached.

Fragile wrote:
Its not consistent when you say that Barrage removes a special rule that was previously attached.

Stating that blast/barrage rules take precedence over both nightfight and out of sight is indeed consistent. Stating that it only takes precendent over one or the other is inconsistent. Universally applying a special rule for models over the special rules for units would be the definition of consistent.

Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Actually there is. You consider the shot to come from the center of the template for determining cover and allocating wounds.

Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
They do not conflict so there is no need for either to take precedence. Night fighting gives the target unit a special rule when the target is selceted. Barrage fires as it normally would at an enemy with that special rule. The special rule gives that unit a cover save/bonus.

Saying that they don't conflict is one thing. There are lots of people here that disagree with that. Hence a 5 page thread.

Can a Barrage weapon hit and wound a unit that cannot be seen by any model in the firing unit? If no, then nightfighting targets gaining shroud/stealth from barrage makes sense. If yes, then a nightfight target would not get the benefits.

Hit? Yes. Wound? Yes. Allocate Wounds? Iffy. Re-reading the rules for out of sight and Barrage, there does not appear to be any permission to allocate wounds to units completely out of sight from the firing unit. Although I don't play it that way.

Yeah, the night fight and out of sight rules are in the same vein. They're both rules that reference units while blast/barrage only reference models. That's where I was going with it. If people don't treat them the same way, they're playing by house rules.

I'm of the opinion that Blasts and Barrage delivered blasts can wound models out of sight of the unit. I'm also of the opinion that models don't get stealth/shroud from barrage. It's consistent.

Changing how a rule works for one situation, without noting it as an exception, changes the whole paradigm of a rule. Since all exceptions made by players are not cannon they must then be considered house rules.

Barrage weapons(being a blast weapon) have exceptions for out of sight and even out of range models to be hit and wounded. They do not have an exceptions for shroud/stealth or cover(excepting of course changing the direction the shot comes from)

Barrage weapons(being a blast weapon) have exceptions for out of sight and even out of range models to be hit and wounded. They do not have an exceptions for shroud/stealth or cover(excepting of course changing the direction the shot comes from)

I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

I've stayed on topic. I use one rule to explain the other. You may not like the way that I explained it, but I've remained on topic. Both rules are applied in the same manner. If one is excepted the the other must be excepted. Simple.

I agree that both rules are written so that the special rules for the firing model do not take precedence over the rules for firing units. I also mentioned that I believe that the rules for the firing model were intended to take precedence over the rules for the firing unit.

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Except using the wound pool to apply to night fighting is a fallacy. They have nothing to do with each other. They are not applied in the same manner.

Show me any special rule that automatically attaches to a unit that is out of LOS.

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

 Abandon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

It's an effect of darkness. Saying that it's not visibility would be like saying the BS of a model has nothing to do with the skill of a model being able to shoot. The models can't see, shoot, move. If you want to be exact.

It is the relative position of the firing unit in relation to the target unit that dictates both rules.

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

It's an effect of darkness. Saying that it's not visibility would be like saying the BS of a model has nothing to do with the skill of a model being able to shoot. The models can't see, shoot, move. If you want to be exact.

It is the relative position of the firing unit in relation to the target unit that dictates both rules.

Now your trying to justify your position based on fluff. RAW in both your examples is clear. If you cannot draw LOS to a model in the target unit, then wounds in the wound pool are lost (RAW). Which means indirect fire is effectively useless, hence most play it the RAI way. RAW is clear on Shrouded/Stealth. If the target unit is X distance away from the firing unit, then it gains S/S special rule. Nothing in barrage rules overrides that. Hence the affected unit can fully use the benefits of that rule.

Fragile wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I'd say wait til I get off work so I can look up the page for you but... it does not even matter for this topic as not having LOS on a model is not the same as that model having stealth/shroud. If you'd care to stay on topic, tell us where it says they don't get cover saves or they lose their special rules.... It's not there.They get there cover save and the bonus for a 3+

If someone believes that a blast/barrage weapon wounds can be allocated to models that are not visible to thte firing unit then they should also agree that models fired upon by blast would not gain stealth/shroud. It is the visibility from the firing unit that dictates each rule.

Visibility does not dictate night fighting effects. Distance between the units does.

It's an effect of darkness. Saying that it's not visibility would be like saying the BS of a model has nothing to do with the skill of a model being able to shoot. The models can't see, shoot, move. If you want to be exact.

It is the relative position of the firing unit in relation to the target unit that dictates both rules.

Now your trying to justify your position based on fluff. RAW in both your examples is clear. If you cannot draw LOS to a model in the target unit, then wounds in the wound pool are lost (RAW). Which means indirect fire is effectively useless, hence most play it the RAI way. RAW is clear on Shrouded/Stealth. If the target unit is X distance away from the firing unit, then it gains S/S special rule. Nothing in barrage rules overrides that. Hence the affected unit can fully use the benefits of that rule.

I didn't use fluff. I used the RAW and simply used the word visibility instead of the much longer "The relative position of the firing unit to the targeted unit". I now know that I assumed too much, that people wold understand the reference. Which I rectified. I do notice that the rectification was ignored.

So yes, the Rules are clear.

It's night fight, the target unit is concealed completely behind a wall 27" away. The firing unit fires and hits the target unit.

By your reasoning you would give the targeted unit Shrouded because of the relative position of the target unit to the firing unit, and allow wounds to be allocated to the targeted unit by ignoring the relative position of the targeted unit to thet firing unit.

It's a matter of consistency. What you are stating is simply a house rule for playing the way that you see fit.

By your reasoning you would give the targeted unit Shrouded because of the relative position of the target unit to the firing unit, and allow wounds to be allocated to the targeted unit by ignoring the relative position of the targeted unit to thet firing unit.

The whole Out of Sight your trying to argue has nothing to do with this argument and your incorrect in your quote above.

Consistency would be applying RAW, which you are not doing.

Fragile wrote:

By your reasoning you would give the targeted unit Shrouded because of the relative position of the target unit to the firing unit, and allow wounds to be allocated to the targeted unit by ignoring the relative position of the targeted unit to thet firing unit.

The whole Out of Sight your trying to argue has nothing to do with this argument and your incorrect in your quote above.

Consistency would be applying RAW, which you are not doing.

Would you be so kind as to correct it for me.

I've admitted that I don't apply the rules as written. I allow barrage to allocate wound to units that cannot be seen by the firing unit and don't allow night fight to give benefits to shot comming from barrage weapons.

You are not applying the RAW as well, by your own admission. My application is, however, consistent.

Luide wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
For Barrage we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)
The distance between firing unit (AKA Where the shots are coming from) is determined by the marker for a barrage.

So according to you, all Barrage has infinite range? I mean,
you claim that the center of the blast marker is the firing model, meaning that you if your Barrage weapon has 36" range, you can place it 100" away and it will still be on range of the "firing model".

nosferatu1001 wrote:Edit: Luide - dont make that claim, as DR has been very clear on when you use the blast as where the shot comes from - and range is not one of them Dont strawman

My point is that according to rules, range equals distance between firing model and target unit. (page 12).

Then DR says that distance between firing model and target unit (exactly same definition as 'range' has) is determined from the center of the marker.
So to be consistent, either "Distance between firing model and target" (=range) is always determined from the center of the blast marker or it is never determined from there. First option will lead to all barrage weapons having infinite range.

Also, we should apply the Stealth/Shrouded to the target unit at Step 2 of Shooting Sequance, "Choose a Target", is because it is only consistent place to apply to it.
a) The exact rule is called "Picking A Target and Nightfighting", so it would be logical that it applies when choosing a target,
b) The rule talks about 4 different cases:
b1) Target is over 36" away. This must be checked at Step 2.
b2) Target is between 24-36".
b3) Target is between 12-24"
b4) Target is less than 12" away. This must be checked at step 2, as it specifies those units "can be shot at normally" and models can only shoot after step 2 is complete.

Is there any reasonable argument why should b2 and b3 checked at other time than b1 and b4, especially when one considers that the context (and name of the actual rule) is about picking target?

The reasoning for either has nothing to do with each other. "Relative position of the target" This sounds like your trying to apply logic to the rule set, which does not work.

By strict RAW, if there is no LOS then wounds cannot be allocated. This means indirect barrage (out of LOS), Hive Guard's Impaler Cannons, GK whatever they are cannons, etc... can shoot all day long and do nothing. You can find several threads on that. I do not believe this is the intent, nor do anyone I know so yes.. I play this by RAI.

Night Fighting states that a unit X distance away gains S/S. DR's claim is that the shot comes from the center of the blast so the S/S doesnt apply because the distance from the center hole to the model being allocated the wound is less than 12". However, the S/S rule was already applied in the sequence of shooting. It is allocated to the shot and even if that shot scatters, it remains. There is nothing in the Barrage rule that removes any special rules. The claim that a special rule = cover is also incorrect. Since a unit has S/S when the shot is declared, it has it through the entire sequence.

Now correcting your statement for RAW would be. "By your reasoning the target unit would have Shrouded and wounds could not be allocated to the unit out of LOS."

You are not applying the RAW as well, by your own admission. My application is, however, consistent

Yes as admitted, I do not apply the Out of Sight rule on pg 16 to weapons that specifically stated they ignore LOS when shooting. However there is no reason to change the RAW on Nightfighting as you have. If a model fired an autocannon at the same unit it fired at barrage weapon at it, your logic goes to shambles.

Luide wrote:
First option will lead to all barrage weapons having infinite range.

That's absolutely false. You cannot know where the center of the marker is until after the scatter is resolved, and you cannot place the marker outside the range of the weapon.

That does not mean that after the marker is placed the range must be determined from the originating model (not firing model, as the Barrage rules say that the firing model is the center of the blast).

Fragile wrote:
The reasoning for either has nothing to do with each other. "Relative position of the target" This sounds like your trying to apply logic to the rule set, which does not work.

By strict RAW, if there is no LOS then wounds cannot be allocated. This means indirect barrage (out of LOS), Hive Guard's Impaler Cannons, GK whatever they are cannons, etc... can shoot all day long and do nothing. You can find several threads on that. I do not believe this is the intent, nor do anyone I know so yes.. I play this by RAI.

Night Fighting states that a unit X distance away gains S/S. DR's claim is that the shot comes from the center of the blast so the S/S doesnt apply because the distance from the center hole to the model being allocated the wound is less than 12". However, the S/S rule was already applied in the sequence of shooting. It is allocated to the shot and even if that shot scatters, it remains. There is nothing in the Barrage rule that removes any special rules. The claim that a special rule = cover is also incorrect. Since a unit has S/S when the shot is declared, it has it through the entire sequence.

Now correcting your statement for RAW would be. "By your reasoning the target unit would have Shrouded and wounds could not be allocated to the unit out of LOS."

You are not applying the RAW as well, by your own admission. My application is, however, consistent

Yes as admitted, I do not apply the Out of Sight rule on pg 16 to weapons that specifically stated they ignore LOS when shooting. However there is no reason to change the RAW on Nightfighting as you have. If a model fired an autocannon at the same unit it fired at barrage weapon at it, your logic goes to shambles.

Negative, You stated how you play. Letting a Unit entirely Out of Sight from the firing unit to allocate wounds from barrage (even though the rules preclude that) and then allowing the same unit to receive the Shrouded benefit for being XX" distance from the unit. There by applying one rule applying to UNIT possitioning while not the other.
My statement was accurate.

About the other shooting that you mentioned. I concur the RAW prevents wounds from being allocated unless there is a listed exclusion from the Out of Sight rule. If you allow them to so so, then that's just the way that you choose to play it. If someone came to the game table and insisted that Night Fight granted stealth/shroud irrespective of Barrage rules then I would insist that the Out of Sight rules also prevent allocating wounds irrespective of the Barrage, Impaler cannon, etc.

I use the relative position of the target just to show the point. I really didn't need to as the rules for Out of Sight are quite clear.

The Logic doesn't go to shambles at all. How does a model fire an autocannon at something that it cannot see? Now, if you are referencing the Night Fight rule here it is also quite simple. And this is how I apply it. If a unit fires an autocannon and a barrage weapon at a unit with Shroud, the unit gains the benefit of Shroud against the Autocannon but not from the Barrage weapon. As the shot is considered to have come from the center of the blast marker.
It would be similar to the same unit firing without the Night Fight in effect and the target unit being behind a wall. The intervienning wall provides cover from the autocannon but not the blast (depending on the position of the blast)

Just because one weapon in a unit allows a save or benefit doesn't mean that all weapons must do so, if one model in a unit has a weapon with Instant Death, but the others do not, does that model lose Instant Death? No. If one model in a unit fires a weapon that Ignores Cover is it required to grant cover because all the other models in the unit do? No.

No unraveling there.

I may be wrong, and I might be proven so in the next FAQ. As it now stands, it's a matter of preference.

Luide - except, as has been stated, given range is NOT one of the instances where you use the blast rather than the firing model, it is indeed a strawman.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Luide - except, as has been stated, given range is NOT one of the instances where you use the blast rather than the firing model, it is indeed a strawman.

We can all agree on that!

rigeld2 wrote:

Luide wrote:
First option will lead to all barrage weapons having infinite range.

That's absolutely false. You cannot know where the center of the marker is until after the scatter is resolved, and you cannot place the marker outside the range of the weapon.

How exactly I cannot know "the center of the blast" marker before scatter is resolved? Center of the blast marker is always in the center of the blast marker. Even before the blast has scattered.
I mean, the exact rule you used here says The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon's maximum range..

So please tell me, exactly why I do not know where the centre of the marker is before scatter. Because I'm pretty sure the centre is exactly where I placed it on table...

Fact that the position of the center may change after scatter is irrelevant, as nowhere in the rules does it say "final position" in regards to barrage rules.

Luide wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luide wrote:
First option will lead to all barrage weapons having infinite range.

That's absolutely false. You cannot know where the center of the marker is until after the scatter is resolved, and you cannot place the marker outside the range of the weapon.

How exactly I cannot know "the center of the blast" marker before scatter is resolved? Center of the blast marker is always in the center of the blast marker. Even before the blast has scattered.
I mean, the exact rule you used here says The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon's maximum range..

So please tell me, exactly why I do not know where the centre of the marker is before scatter. Because I'm pretty sure the centre is exactly where I placed it on table...

Fact that the position of the center may change after scatter is irrelevant, as nowhere in the rules does it say "final position" in regards to barrage rules.

What's the weapon's maximum range?
I meant to say "you cannot know the final location of the center of the marker until after scatter is resolved."

 Idolator wrote:
Negative, You stated how you play. Letting a Unit entirely Out of Sight from the firing unit to allocate wounds from barrage (even though the rules preclude that) and then allowing the same unit to receive the Shrouded benefit for being XX" distance from the unit.

You still seem to be trying to hide behind an LOS issue with wounds. That has nothing to do with Night Fighting.

How does a model fire an autocannon at something that it cannot see?

We are talking about Night Fighting, not LOS.

Now, if you are referencing the Night Fight rule here it is also quite simple. And this is how I apply it. If a unit fires an autocannon and a barrage weapon at a unit with Shroud, the unit gains the benefit of Shroud against the Autocannon but not from the Barrage weapon. As the shot is considered to have come from the center of the blast marker.

How does a unit have a Special rule against one attack but not another. The target unit either has Shrouded or it does not. You cannot have both.

Just because one weapon in a unit allows a save or benefit doesn't mean that all weapons must do so, if one model in a unit has a weapon with Instant Death, but the others do not, does that model lose Instant Death? No. If one model in a unit fires a weapon that Ignores Cover is it required to grant cover because all the other models in the unit do? No.

That example makes no sense.

. As it now stands, it's a matter of preference.

Its a matter of RAW, they have Shrouded or RAI they don't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Luide wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luide wrote:
First option will lead to all barrage weapons having infinite range.

That's absolutely false. You cannot know where the center of the marker is until after the scatter is resolved, and you cannot place the marker outside the range of the weapon.

How exactly I cannot know "the center of the blast" marker before scatter is resolved? Center of the blast marker is always in the center of the blast marker. Even before the blast has scattered.
I mean, the exact rule you used here says The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon's maximum range..

So please tell me, exactly why I do not know where the centre of the marker is before scatter. Because I'm pretty sure the centre is exactly where I placed it on table...

Fact that the position of the center may change after scatter is irrelevant, as nowhere in the rules does it say "final position" in regards to barrage rules.

What's the weapon's maximum range?

Normally, it is maximum allowed distance between firing model and target unit. In case of Blast weapons, it is maximum allowed distance between firing model and the center of the blast marker (before scatter is rolled), as per pages 12 and 33. If firing model is determined to be at the center of blast marker, then you just determine the range between center of the blast marker and the center of the blast marker.

rigeld2 wrote:
I meant to say "you cannot know the final location of the center of the marker until after scatter is resolved."

But that is completely irrelevant. Barrage does not specify that the "assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker" only applies for the final position of the blast marker. Now, one reason barrage weapons don't have infinite range is because the whole premise I copied from DR is flawed. There is no permission to measure distance from firing unit to target unit from center of the blast marker given on Barrage rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Luide - except, as has been stated, given range is NOT one of the instances where you use the blast rather than the firing model, it is indeed a strawman.

Measuring distance between firing unit and the target unit is NOT one of the instances where you use the blast either. So while my argument is a strawman, it also means that whole premise of DR's argument is unfounded.

I mean, I assume we can agree on following premises.
1) Shot is coming from the center of blast marker ONLY regarding following things:
1a) whether unit wounded by a barrage is allowed a cover save
1b) when determining Wound allocation
2) (Corollary) For all other purposes, no permission is given to determine that the shot is coming from the center of blast marker
3) "Determine Cover saves" (page 18) defines when model is allowed cover save
4) Wound allocation (regarding shooting attacks) is defined on page 15.

This means that you're not allowed to use center of blast marker for determining distance between the two units (page 4), am I not correct?

1a) should be 'gains cover save from being 25% obscured"

Luide - except where you are told this is relevant; if you are told that a unit gains a cover save by being X distance away from the unit, then you WOULD use the centre of the blast to determine this - as this is part of "determining cover"

Stealth and Shrouded *do* provide a cover save, or improve an existing cover save, which is why I can certainly see DRs argument - you are told that firing model and centre of blast are synonymous for that purpose, and in the degenerate case the model firing IS the unit as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Luide - except where you are told this is relevant; if you are told that a unit gains a cover save by being X distance away from the unit, then you WOULD use the centre of the blast to determine this - as this is part of "determining cover"

Stealth and Shrouded *do* provide a cover save, or improve an existing cover save, which is why I can certainly see DRs argument - you are told that firing model and centre of blast are synonymous for that purpose, and in the degenerate case the model firing IS the unit as well.

except the blast marker is not a shooting unit, nor a model.
under determine cover, you are checking to see if the target is 25% obscured, and that is all.
and under night fighting the distance doesn't change when it scatters. if you start in the stealth zone and scatter into shroud or none, the models hit still get stealth. its the distance from the firing unit to the original target that is used throughout the resolution of the barrage shot.

Barrage says nothing about ignoring night fighting, ergo once you check for range that is the save allowed to whatever it ends up hitting.

I changed my mind after reading the rules and the forums... I would make it a +3.

'Still confused Grr,

Shrouded takes place from the firing tank when shooting, IRL this would be the distance in darkness...Doesnt really matter as it never needs line of site to shoot so why would darkness matter? Nightfighting is ment to evenly reduce range for ALL units. Limiting even titans to a 36 inch range.... even though they can be taller then that. BUT as rules are intended ALL weapons should loose some ability in night fighting.

I would like to see them add specual wording to rules in the case of nightfighting. Something like ""Ignors cover.... target may have a maximum of 5+ cover only during nightfighting past 30 inches." If in the same paragraph of the rule there would be no arguing the cover save.

Sirlynch - except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

You are never told to equate the two.
The rule shows the shot is seperate from firing model, the firing model is still the firing model. Look at the rule again, it does the oppersite of equating the two.

The shot is something that normally comes from the firing unit, we are told it now comes from the blast not the firing unit. The firing unit is still there, we are definitely NOT told the blast is now the firing unit.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

You are never told to equate the two.

The rules equate them, as I have shown.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

You are never told to equate the two.

The rules equate them, as I have shown.

The rule disagrees with you.
You can keep saying they equate, but the rule itself shows they don't.

The rule shows that shot and firing unit are seperate, and never the same thing. The shot normally comes from the firing unit (it never IS the firing unit). With barrage the shot (not firing unit) now comes from the blast (not firing unit) instead of the firing unit (which is still the firing unit).
They most certainly DO NOT equate.

I say 5+, as our friendly group would determine that the RAI was that unit and model would be the same effective item when determinations would be made.
Seems to be a slip up of model/unit that we wouldn't rules lawyer, just assume they would be interchangable for this instance.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sirlynch - except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

You are never told to equate the two.

The rules equate them, as I have shown.

The rule disagrees with you.
You can keep saying they equate, but the rule itself shows they don't.

The rule shows that shot and firing unit are seperate, and never the same thing. The shot normally comes from the firing unit (it never IS the firing unit). With barrage the shot (not firing unit) now comes from the blast (not firing unit) instead of the firing unit (which is still the firing unit).
They most certainly DO NOT equate.

Shots come from firing units.

For barrage where does the shot come from?

A: The center of the blast marker.

the rules do equate them.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Shots come from firing units.

For barrage where does the shot come from?

A: The center of the blast marker.

the rules do equate them.

That doesn't prove what you think it does.
The shot now comes from the blast instead of the firing unit. The rule is clear on this.
The blast does not become the firing unit. The firing unit is still the firing unit, only where the shot is coming from has changed.
Nothing says shots only come from firing units, nothing says the blast becomes the firing unit, nothing makes the firing unit no longer the firing unit.
In short, NOTHING equates the two.
The rule show shot and firing unit as seperate.

The center of the blast is where the shot comes from.

The firing unit is where shots come from.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

Equated by the rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The center of the blast is where the shot comes from.

The firing unit is where shots come from.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
except you are told to equate the two, for very specific circumstances. You measure from the firing model, but instead measure from the centre of the blast

Equated by the rules.

Equated by opinion only, not rules.
Show me the rule that says shots can only come from firing units.
The barrage rule shows that only the shot comes from the blast, it no longer come storm the firing unit. Firing unit is shown right there in the rules to be separate from the shot.
The shot usually comes from firing units, the barrage rules show that's not always the case. The rule does the exact opposite of equating them, please read it.

The whole rub of this issue can be broken down to this: Do the exceptions for a firing model take precedence over the rules for a firing unit?

That is the question that is being asked.

I come down on the side of the model. Some come down on the side of the unit. Obviously the rules conflict and there's nothing in the rules that state one overides the other.

Death reaper is right on this issue, barrage is a little wonky but it makes sense I just sense some rage about barrage negating the benefits of night fighting. When assuming the center of the blast is the shot equate it with the model dropping on the heads of the unit and you realize how silly the this argument gets. During night fight hide in cover if your opponent brought barrage if not proceed normally, this argument came up every time I used a Manticore during night fight.

So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

Until this is FAQ'd I am fairly sure this arguement will go on forever. I firmyl BELEIVE that RAI the barrage marker would deny night fighting cover saves and that the RAW is unclear but leans toward this. As for me I just use my Blast Masters and ignore the issue completely.

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

During movement it isn't. Is the marker there during movement?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

During movement it isn't. Is the marker there during movement?

No...Wait does that mean I can deploy (since it is not movement) models on top of other models then? Since there is no rule that models are Impassable Terrain anymore that I've seen anyway.

RAW I believe you're correct. It'd be stupid to allow, but I'm not sure there's anywhere it's explicitly stated that you can't stack.

That's an obvious RAW failure, however.

rigeld2 wrote:
RAW I believe you're correct. It'd be stupid to allow, but I'm not sure there's anywhere it's explicitly stated that you can't stack.

That's an obvious RAW failure, however.

Huzzah! Time to stack my tanks!

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

I've had that argument before as well. A blast template is not a model. The empty hole surrounded by a disc of plastic is fo' sho' not a model. It is the area from which the shot is presumed to have originated.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So what happens if the blast marker lands directly on top of an enemy model? Now you have a model on top of an enemy model, and that is not allowed.

I've had that argument before as well. A blast template is not a model. The empty hole surrounded by a disc of plastic is fo' sho' not a model. It is the area from which the shot is presumed to have originated.

Which would mean the target unit is still 12-36" away from the firing unit. Yay!

Which would mean the target unit is still 12-36" away from the firing unit. Yay!

Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Fragile wrote:
Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

This is getting technical, i know, but hey! It's a technical issue. The only refrence to the distance for the "The SHOOTING UNIT", states that they cannot pick a target more than 36" away. All the other references state "units between XX" and XX" away" and do not make mention to the shooting unit. This could be considered to be shots coming from the shooting model.

One could easily read that to mean units XX" away from a firing model receive the benefit. Five models in a SM tac squad are less than 12" from a unit of Orks with the remaining 5 are beyond 12". The Ork squad would get no benefit from the closest 5 but would gain stealth from the 5 marines that were beyond 12".

It's an issue that hasn't been brought up here as we were all arguing whether a models special rules override standing unit rules. This would also be a valid argument however.

 Idolator wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Deathreaper examples still ignore the fact that the Stealth / Shrouded rule is already attached to the unit before the shot is even resolved. Which means without something in the Barrage rule to state that it ignores Stealth or Shrouded, those rules apply.

You can argue the shot comes from the moon, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the special rules are applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence, while DR's whole argument applies in Step 5.

This is getting technical, i know, but hey! It's a technical issue. The only refrence to the distance for the "The SHOOTING UNIT", states that they cannot pick a target more than 36" away. All the other references state "units between XX" and XX" away" and do not make mention to the shooting unit. This could be considered to be shots coming from the shooting model.

One could easily read that to mean units XX" away from a firing model receive the benefit. Five models in a SM tac squad are less than 12" from a unit of Orks with the remaining 5 are beyond 12". The Ork squad would get no benefit from the closest 5 but would gain stealth from the 5 marines that were beyond 12".

It's an issue that hasn't been brought up here as we were all arguing whether a models special rules override standing unit rules. This would also be a valid argument however.

pg 4 specifies how measure distance between units.

if the two units start <12" apart the unit being shot doesn't gain stealth. its not a model per model things, its unit by unit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 4 specifies how measure distance between units.

if the two units start <12" apart the unit being shot doesn't gain stealth. its not a model per model things, its unit by unit.

That was the point of that post. There is only one reference to measuring from the "shooting unit". It could be read that the remaining references regard shooting model.

Just because one model in a unit is within range, it doesn't grant all models the ability to shoot and wound. If just one model has clear line of sight, it doesn't negate cover saves from other models firing in the unit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

This

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Or grant you a cover save where none existed before. Which sounds a LOT like "determining" cover to me

nosferatu1001 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Can we acknowledge that determining cover is:

check for 25% obscurement
check for type of cover
consult chart for cover save.

That's it. Stealth and shroud have no part in that process. They take the number after it's been determined number and improve it.

Or grant you a cover save where none existed before. Which sounds a LOT like "determining" cover to me

No you determined the model has no cover save. Since there was no cover save to improve, it granted one.

It counts the cover save (which needed to be determined first) as being x points better.

Wrong, you determined that the model had no cover save *from terrain* (including other models in this) but you did NOT determine the model had "no" cover save; that can only come after you have decided if stealth / shrouding applies

It also does not make it "X" points better when you dont have a save to begin with, it sets it to a set value. There is no such thing as "you have a 7+ save in the open", which is what you are implying is the case

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong, you determined that the model had no cover save *from terrain* (including other models in this) but you did NOT determine the model had "no" cover save; that can only come after you have decided if stealth / shrouding applies

It also does not make it "X" points better when you dont have a save to begin with, it sets it to a set value. There is no such thing as "you have a 7+ save in the open", which is what you are implying is the case

that's what I said.

shroud counts its cover save as being 2 points better than normal. How do you know weather to improve a save, or use the set value? You determine the cover save.

Read the determine cover rules and it says nothing about stealth/shroud.

No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

Right, so you determine cover saves from the blast.
You then apply the Shrouded rule (that was granted from NightFighting during the targeting stage of shooting, long ago) to arrive at the final save.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt what you said, at all.

Part of determining cover is working out if you have any cover from terrain, and if you have cover from other special rules.

You cannot determine the cover save in toto unless you consider Stealth / Shrouding as well. You can only arrive at an interim number

You were saying the whole of determining cover excludes stealth shroud, when that is not true.

Right, so you determine cover saves from the blast.
You then apply the Shrouded rule (that was granted from NightFighting during the targeting stage of shooting, long ago) to arrive at the final save.

You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

You factor in Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves. The unit is granted the special rule when targeted during Night Fighting.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

The unit is granted the special rule when targeted during Night Fighting.

I have shown where you determine Stealth/Shrouded at the time of determining cover saves, not before.

No rules have been presented to the contrary.

So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

I really want to agree with DeathReaper on this one, but I think they would get a 3+ cover, unfortunately. But that's only because they reworked Stealth/Shrouded into giving the benefitting unit a cover save no matter what.

Page 41 and 42 state that the unit gets a cover save no matter if it's in the open or not, and if it already gets a cover save from the KFF, then it gets improved by 2 steps.

The argument for when the rule is applied to the victim unit in question is wonky at best, because now we're just trying to come up with a "stack" like in Magic: The Gathering. GW has never really been a company to have such clear and defined rules, unfortunately.

editted for spelling, I'm an engineer, not an english major, dammit =p

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all. You determine cover from the center of the marker, then apply Stealth/Shrouding.

No cover from marker + Stealth = 6+ cover save
No cover from marker + Shrouded = 5+ cover save

Cover from marker + Stealth = most likely a 4+ cover save
Cover from marker + Shrouded = most likely a 3+ cover save

Stealth and Shrouded are modifiers to cover saves (+1 and +2 respectively). Even if the cover determination is null (meaning no cover is initially determined) you still apply the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers.

-Yad

If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

Well the one the that comes to mind is the one Necron guy who has Counter Tactics, allowing you to remove Stealth from an enemy unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

Well the one the that comes to mind is the one Necron guy who has Counter Tactics, allowing you to remove Stealth from an enemy unit.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So a model only has the Stealth/Shrouded special rule when determining if the unit has a cover save? Interesting logic.

When would you calculate if it has Stealth/Shrouded if you are not at the point of determining if the unit has a cover save?

It truly comes down to the Unit vs Model question.

The 36" rule obviously refers to the distance from the shooting unit. Meaning that all of the models in a unit would have to be more than 36" away. No conflict there.

When making the references to other distances, there is no reference made to the shooting unit. If it's not written that you use the UNIT to determine distances, you have to use the standard rules for shooting, where distance, range and cover fall on the shooting model.

One could infer that they intended for it to be applied to Unit to Unit distance throughout. However it is not written that way.

So lets assume for a moment we have a group of Tankbusta Boyz and a Tactical Squad.

One Boy is 11" away from the Tac Squad.
Some are 13" away, some 15" away, etc, with a few who are 24" away.

The Tac Squad is in the open. Night Fighting rules are in affect. What cover save (if any) does the Tac squad get?

None - distance is measured from unit to unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
None - distance is measured from unit to unit.

Let me change it slightly. Same situation except with a Nob who is 15" away and rolls a 6 To Hit.

Part of the same Boyz squad?
Still none. Distance is measured unit to unit.

 Happyjew wrote:
So lets assume for a moment we have a group of Tankbusta Boyz and a Tactical Squad.

One Boy is 11" away from the Tac Squad.
Some are 13" away, some 15" away, etc, with a few who are 24" away.

The Tac Squad is in the open. Night Fighting rules are in affect. What cover save (if any) does the Tac squad get?

It works out just as normal shooting into cover, since stealth/shroud grant cover (as well as improve it). The unit of Space marines would receive no cover from the boy 11" away, 6+ cover from the others and 5+ from the orks that are more than 24" away ( if they have range, tankbustas wouldn't but we'll assume that they do for this point of reason)

It works out just as if the unit weren't in night fight, but behind diferent forms of cover from diferent firing models. It would be possible for a unit to gain no cover from a model that had a clear line of sight, a 5+ because they were behind trees from some of the shooting models, and a 4+ because they were behind a ruin from the remaining firing models.

Can we all agree that the Rules for Night Fight only specificaly reference(in writting) Unit to Unit distance for the 36" distance?

I think that from a RAW perspective DeathReaper is right so I voted for the 5+ save.

BUT

I believe that the RAI would give the extra save. Nightfighting, as I understand it, is to simulate the fact that on a dark battlefield it is harder to see and therefore hit your intended target.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from

As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.
The rule shows they do not equate. Not once have you shown they do, only stated an opinion that they should.

Lets go over the rule one more time, and hopefully you'll stop this falsehood.

BRB p34 Barrage wrote:...always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model...

We have shot and a firing model. Two seperate entities. Shots normally come from firing models (but not always, as the rule above shows).
Shots are not firing models. They usually come from firig models. Seperate entities.
Now the shot comes from the blast marker instead of the firing model. The shot, has moved, the firing model hasn't. The rule still mentions the firing model, and hasn't changed it, so we know the firing model is still indeed the firing model (just the shot no longer comes from it).
At no point are we told the firing model is no longer the firing model.
At no point are we told the blast marker is now the firing model.
At no point does any rule anywhere say that shots can only come from firing models (the barrage rule supports this).
They do not equate. No rule says they equate. The barrage rule shows that shot and firing model are seperate (thats the oppersite of equating).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Anything that effects the cover save is governed by the Barrage Rules on P. 34.

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

After skimming through most of this thread I believe the quote above is the crux of issue. Now I'm not sure if this has been said before, but I interpret the line above to refer to determining cover from intervening terrain only as that would be the best benefit of determining cover from the center of the blast marker instead of the firing model. This line does not change the fact that the target must be within range of the firing model to target it to try and fire, nor does it change the distance that the barrage was fired. Ergo the Night Fighting rules for Stealth and Shrouded would still come into play granting the unit fired upon appropiate increases to any cover save they may get from intervening terrain between them and the center of the blast marker (or in the OP scenario the KFF).

Above is how I believe the rules were intended to interact with each other.

My personal solution to this conundrum would be to fire a barrage weapon with the "Ignores Cover" special rule and just forget about it until Night Fighting is over.

BayneMor

 DeathReaper wrote:
My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

They are not "cover saves". They are Special Rules... as laid out on page 32. They improve cover saves. The unit gains that Special Rule through the night fighting when the target is declared and range is determined.

Can anyone quote from the rule book where it says that Stealth/Shroud are determined by the distance from the shooting unit to the firing unit?

I can't find that wording anywhere.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the Stealth and Shrouded modifiers apply, but if the shot is coming from 3 inches away, then the distance between the firing unit (Where the shot is coming from) and the target unit is only 3 inches, which is not enough to grant Stealth or Shrouded.

No the distance between the units determine whether or not the unit gets stealth or shrouded. Not where the shot is considered to be coming from

As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.

Only by your assertation, but the rules agree with my statement.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
My examples ignore nothing.

Stealth/Shrouded are cover saves, or improve existing ones. They are assessed when it is time to allocate wounds and take saves. not before.

Therefore they are not "applied in Step 2 of the shooting sequence" they apply in step 5, as that is where you apply cover saves.

They are not "cover saves". They are Special Rules... as laid out on page 32. They improve cover saves. The unit gains that Special Rule through the night fighting when the target is declared and range is determined.

Yet they are cover saves. it says so in the Stealth/Shrouded rules.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Stealth says "...Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is in the open." P. 42

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)
Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

The rules actually state "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As I have shown the firing unit and where the shots came from are equated.

This was wrong the first time you said it, and it's still wrong now.

Only by your assertation, but the rules agree with my statement.

I've shown the rules don't agree with you. They do not equate.
You haven't shown they do, just keep repeating that they do without actually backing it up with any rules.
Please prove it (with rules), or stop saying they equate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)
Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?).

Premise 1& 2 are flawed.

Premise 1: shots normally come from firing models. No rule says this is the only place they come from, barrage rules prove this.
Premise 2: Cover saves can be granted depending on where the shot comes from. Other things can grant cover saves without the location of the shot being relevant. KFF is one example, stealth another.
Premise 3: is correct. They grant cover saves, they are not cover saves themselves.

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

False.
The firing model is still the firing model. Only the shot has changed. No rule changes the firing model. No rule makes the blast the firing model..

Here is where the rules equate the two:

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)
Models fire shots.

"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army
must be organised into 'units'." (3)

Units are made up of models

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is where the rules equate the two:

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)
Models fire shots.

"The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army
must be organised into 'units'." (3)

Units are made up of models

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

That does not equate them. I'm missing the leap of logic you're making obviously.
Units are made of model, yes that's clear. Not really relevant to firing model.
Now the shot comes from the blast, instead of the firing model. So the shot has changed place, the firing model hasn't.
Still, how do you equate the two?
Nothing here shows that.

The rules i quoted show that models fire shots (Firing model).

Instead of the firing model firing the shot, the barrage rules state the shot instead comes from the center of the blast marker.

That's what shows it, even if you can not see it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules i quoted show that models fire shots (Firing model).

Instead of the firing model firing the shot, the barrage rules state the shot instead comes from the center of the blast marker.

That's what shows it, even if you can not see it.

Right, so why the quotes about units? We're dealing with firing models.

Anyway, shots come from firing models. Agreed?
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Now the rule only mentions shots are moved. The rule says the shot no longer comes from the firing unit.
The firing unit is still mentioned in the rule. We are not told this has changed. And we are not told the blast is now the firing unit.

Now what is making the blast the firing model? The rule doesn't tell us to do this. It's only telling us to move the shot.
There is no rule saying shots can only come from firing model, and no rule saying the firing model (that was named in the rule) is no longer the firing model.
Nothing equates them, the rule is separating shot from firing model.

 grendel083 wrote:
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Yes, and that is why they are equated.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shots are something that normally come from a model, in this case we are now told the shot comes from somewhere else. Agreed?

Yes, and that is why they are equated.

That doesn't equate them. That's just were they normally come from. If they were equated the rule would have to say the blast is now the firing model. Or treat the blast as the firing model.
By separating the shot from the firing model, the rule is showing they do not equate. The rule mentions the firing model, and that the shot no longer comes from it.
That does not equate them.

The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

Can you find a rule that states the underlined?
The rule says the shot comes from the blast instead of the firing model. Seperating shot from firing model. The opposite of equating.

You figure what the cover is from the center of the marker. But the firing unti is still 30" away. The fact that it is 30" away gives it shrouding. This is simple.

 Idolator wrote:
Can anyone quote from the rule book where it says that Stealth/Shroud are determined by the distance from the shooting unit to the firing unit?

I can't find that wording anywhere.

Page 124, left column, under "Picking a Target and Night Fighting". It is in bold.

Shots come from firing models.

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)

 DeathReaper wrote:
Shots come from firing models.

"all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." (13)

That quotes doesn't prove anything, just that units fire.
Find a quote that says shots can only come from firing models, then you might have a leg to stand on.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The shot comes from the firing model.

In the case of barrage the firing model is the center of the blast marker.

Equated.

also irrelevant. a blast marker is not a model, nor a unit.

how do you determine distance between units?

pg 4. distance between units are always measured to and from the closest model.
and pg 71 for vehicles allows for the hull of vehicles to be used.

assuming the shot is coming from the center of the marker, instead of the firer, does not make the blast marker a model, nor a unit. Its just a point used to determine cover saves, not to alter ranges.

The shot "comes from" the center of the blast marker for the purposes of wound allocation and determining cover. Why would they specify only those two situations? That's because the DIRECTION the shot is coming from matters for determining whether a barricade/wall/etc is in between the shrapnel and the model to grant a cover save, and also to determine the closest models to the center of the blast because the closest models have to be allocated wounds.

That is all that rule says.

"It came at us from behind!"

Is behind the direction it came at you from, or is behind a specific place?

DeathReaper keeps falling back on other logical fallacies trying to prove his point in a little loop so lets take a look at the whole picure.

OP presents the situation:

nightfighting is enabled. pg 124
a barrage weapon (pg 34) is firing at a ork unit 30" away.
the orks have a KFF mek in the unit. grants a 5+ cover.

So we're in the shooting phase. Steps are:

1. Player#1 selects his unit with a barrage weapon to fire.

2. Player#1 selects Player#2's ork unit he wants to shoot at.
-Nightfighting rules kick in here and the distance from the firing unit is measured to the target unit.
-Distance is 30 inches so per the nightfighting rules, they can be fired upon and they now gain the shrouded special rule.

3. Player#1 places the blast template on the desired target model in the unit he is shooting at and rolls for scatter.

4. One model in Player#2's ork unit is under the template and is hit. Check for wound(assuming the shot camr form the blast templat center)... it does

5. Check for cover (assuming the shot camr form the blast templat center)... there is none on the table but the model has two special rules that apply to cover saves. Has KFF(5+ cover save) and Shrouded(+2 to existing cover save or 5+ cover on it's own). KFF is modified by Shrouded for a 3+ cover save.

-Note that everything after step 2 does not matter for determining night fighting effects as they have already been applied.



Now, lets take a look at this statment:

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model... "

Note the wording "instead of the firing model"
You are not given permission to consider the blast template center as the fireing model or unit. You are only given permission to consider it as 'where the shot came from' and at that only for two very specific purposes, determining cover and wound allocation. No matter how much you might think it was intended or how logical you think it sounds(not at all if you ask me) it simply is not writen that way and in RAW, what you see is what you get. It in fact makes sure you don't assume the firing model is there by using the word "instead".

You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

Y'all have convinced me. The target unit gets Stealth/Shroud. I've been playing the other way. But no more.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

Nope. Range was measured, the unoit was given Shrouding by virtue of it's range from the shooter. The unit now has shrouding for the purpose of resolving that attack.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

Nope. Range was measured, the unoit was given Shrouding by virtue of it's range from the shooter. The unit now has shrouding for the purpose of resolving that attack.

and why are you assessing if the unit is Stealth/Shrouded when the rules do not tell you to assess Stealth/Shrouded?

 DeathReaper wrote:
You have step 2 incorrect. Cover saves, and by extension Night fighting, is not assessed until step 5.

No, they take effect when the target is picked. They are not at that time granted a cover save, they a given a Special Rule quite specifically named. What that Special Rule does is not the determining factor as to when they get it. It quite clearly states to check the range for night fighting at the time the target is selected and what the outcome of that check is. That Special Rule then later gives them a cover save or enhances their existing cover save.

I'm really not sure how this is confusing you, it's very straight forward. Nowhere in the night fighting rules does it say you do anything when you're checking for for cover. It puts all of it right there in step two of the shooting phase. Give some quotes that say it does or admit it does not.

It is not confusing me.

Stealth and shrouded grant a cover save, when do you assess cover saves?

When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

you might want to re-read Page 124, it never mentions step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
When the cover save is taken, I suppose is what you're getting at. But it doesn't matter, they still have shrouding. They wre given shrouding when you measured the distance.

Except the rules do not say that they gain the rule in step 2.

It does actually. Page 124.

you might want to re-read Page 124, it never mentions step 2.

That's true, because step 2 is something you made up, I was being lazy and didn't want to quote.

It says "units between 24 and 36 inches away are treated as having Shrouding". SO, is the unit more than 24" away? Great, it has shrouding. That's true when you first target it, it's true when you're making the saves. Because the unit doesn't move mid-shot. It's just that simple.

I never made up step 2...

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

It's step 2 in the shooting rules: Pick a target (or something like that) That is when the Night fighting rules apply themselves as they clearly say.

Still waiting on those quotes DR.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

The unit has shrouded, which gives a cover save. when do you assess cover saves? (Shooting sequence tell us it is step 5 P.12)

 Abandon wrote:
It's step 2 in the shooting rules: Pick a target (or something like that) That is when the Night fighting rules apply themselves as they clearly say.

Still waiting on those quotes DR.

OIt doesn't matter, dude. It has shrouding. fini.

I would think no cover or 3+. the only time you would get a cover is if the barrage firer can see your models directly... then the shot comes from their line of direct sight. Otherwise they are firing indirectly which would ignore all cover saves aside from area terrain.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I never made up step 2...

Don't care really. the unit has shrouding. Because pg 124 says so.

The unit has shrouded, which gives a cover save. when do you assess cover saves? (Shooting sequence tell us it is step 5 P.12)

Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save. You would assess the effects of shrouded during Step 5 of the shooting sequence. You would however gain the Shrouded Special Rule during step 2 (this is when p124 tells you to do it "Picking a target and Night Fighting")

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

Is a Kustom Force Field a cover save? No it's a piece of wargear that grants a cover save.
Shrouded is a Special Rule that grants/improves a cover save. It is not a cover save, it's a Special Rule.

It doesn't really matter when the cover save is assessed or wahtever. It has a bonus to it's cover save. Because it's 30" away. That's the whole thing.

Cover saves don't stack with other cover saves, Shrouded does, it is not a cover save as it does not act like cover saves. It is a Special Rule that improves cover saves, or grants them if non exist.
You can assess the effects of shrouded at Step 5 of the Shooting Sequence, but would gain in at Step 2 when the night fighting rule tells you to.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Shrouded gives a cover save, but is not itself a cover save.

What?

That makes no sense.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Shrouded is a cover save as that is shrouded's only effect.

Sure it does. You're not taking a 'Shrouded save'. You're taking a cover save, modified by the Shrouded special rule.

-Yad

Shrouded is not a cover save. It's a rule that modifies a cover save. Sure, that can modify it from "none" to 5+. I don't see why this is confusing.

Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

sirlynchmob wrote:
Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

This thread was finally dead, finally off the front page, and you.... you.... you bumped it?
I'm going to spend a long time thinking of an appropriate curse.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Bumping, the voting is not over yet, lets rock the vote

Oh and 3+ cover save

This thread was finally dead, finally off the front page, and you.... you.... you bumped it?
I'm going to spend a long time thinking of an appropriate curse.

sorry, I'll never bump it again.

oh dang it

Well lets see if the next FAQ finally covers this issue. I sent them a message and they have to listen to me, right?

After all, there are many inconsistencies in the Barrage weapons and Night Fighting rules.
For example, a vehicle cannot be wounded so it would get its save (and shrouded/stealth bonuses..) because the wording is: 'To determine if a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save...'
That is my main argument on why the Tau Disruption pod works, but all of this just makes everything more confusing.