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I think the issue is interpetation of the phrase "comes from" the blast marker. This could be seen as the blast marker itself being the origin of the attack, but to me its clearly just the DIRECTION the attack comes from. This, to me, is evident in that they mention determining wound allocation and cover saves, which both require knowing the direction damage is coming from

Stealth/Shrouded is granted basted on distance between units, not distance from where the shot came from. Determining if the unit is 'in cover' does care where the shot came from.

It 'coming from center of the blast marker' and 'as if the unit were at the center of the blast marker' are not the same at all. Equating the two to be equal is incorrect.

In any case the special rule is granted before the blast marker is placed so unless the weapon has the ability to ignore cover saves there is nothing to deny them the ability.

 Abandon wrote:
Stealth/Shrouded is granted basted on distance between units, not distance from where the shot came from. Determining if the unit is 'in cover' does care where the shot came from.

It 'coming from center of the blast marker' and 'as if the unit were at the center of the blast marker' are not the same at all. Equating the two to be equal is incorrect.

In any case the special rule is granted before the blast marker is placed so unless the weapon has the ability to ignore cover saves there is nothing to deny them the ability.

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

Which rule? None do.
You mean this one:
"When determining whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Would allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of the firing model."

Is that the one you mean?
That's saying the shot is coming from the blast, and the firing model is still the firing model.
Night Fighting requires "the shooting unit" not where their shot is coming from.

That rule most certainly does not make shot = firing unit, in fact the oppersite as both are show to be seperate.

Despite this, Night Fighting is still determined during the targeting stage of shooting, long before the final position of a blast marker is established. So it really matters not.

Yes the same one I quoted earlier:

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

The rule equates The shot with the firing model. This is because it says Instead of the firing model the shot is coming from the marker, therefore the center of the marker is equated to where the shot is coming from. It equates firing model and center of the marker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes the same one I quoted earlier:

"always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

The rule equates The shot with the firing model. This is because it says Instead of the firing model the shot is coming from the marker, therefore the center of the marker is equated to where the shot is coming from. It equates firing model and center of the marker.

It says the shot is from the blast, not the firing model.
The shot. Nothing else.
Nothing there states that the firing model is no longer the firing model. The rule most certainly does not equate the two, but show them as separate. The shot usually comes from the firing unit, but now no longer does. They are not the same thing.
Either way it is still irrelevant.

And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

Normally yes, which rule says this is the only place?
The barrage rule says they can come from blast markers and not firing model.
Shot =\= firing model.

And this debate is STILL irrelevant.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

And what do you use to determine if a unit has Stealth or Shrouded from Night Fight? A: The firing unit.

Moving away from the irrelevant (and incorrect) notion that shots = firing units...

We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

And what do you use to determine if a unit has Stealth or Shrouded from Night Fight? A: The firing unit.

And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Since shots come from firing models, and in the case of a barrage marker we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

This is used "To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save" (34)

Therefore you determine cover saves from the center of the marker for a blase, aka as if the shot was coming (Originating) from the center of the marker.

This shows the shot does not come from the firing model, but instead comes from the center of the marker, and equates firing model with the center of the marker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

The rule changes were the shot comes from. It in no way stops the firing model from being the firing model. The rule shows that shot and firing model are now seperate. The blast is definitely not the firing model.

Regardless, at that stage the unit has already gained the Stealth/Shrouded SR, so this debate is irrelevant. A point that is constantly ignored.

DeathReaper wrote:And where do shots come from? A: Firing models

Your right and it did. Has nothing to do with the point though since you would treat it 'as if it came from the center of the blast marker' instead of the firing model only for the purpose of checking for cover. This still does not permit you to re-determine the range between units or remove stealth/shroud from the target.

grendel083 wrote:Moving away from the irrelevant (and incorrect) notion that shots = firing units...

We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

This^

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

You may not be reading the same rule.

The rules for Barrage equate the firing model with the center of the marker, here is why:

Shots come from firing models.

In the case of barrage the shots come from the center of the marker.

The firing model is used to determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal.

In the case of barrage where do you determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal? (The center of the marker).

The rules equate them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And the rule I quoted equates firing model with the center of the marker.

Except the rules doesn't equate the two. Opposite in fact.

You may not be reading the same rule.

The rules for Barrage equate the firing model with the center of the marker, here is why:

Shots come from firing models.

In the case of barrage the shots come from the center of the marker.

The firing model is used to determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal.

In the case of barrage where do you determine Line of Sight for casualties, cover saves and range for casualty removal? (The center of the marker).

The rules equate them.

The very rule you keep touting quite explicitly states it is only "To determine weather a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save". Not for range between units. Does not take away special rules they have already been granted. You're just checking for cover from the center. Period.

So Stealth/Shrouded have nothing to do with cover saves?

If you determine if "a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save" you have to work out what that cover save is...

This is all a part of the shooting process, and only comes into play at the take saves step of the shooting process.

When you selected your target and determined range, that is when they get stealth/shroud. Then you roll for scatter and place the blast marker. At that point they already have the special rule and nothing says they lose it. You then check for cover from the center of the blast marker instead of the firing model.

 Abandon wrote:
When you selected your target and determined range, that is when they get stealth/shroud.

Citation needed, as this is not in the Stealth or Shrouded rules.

Shrouded says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal." P. 41

Stealth says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being I point better than normal." P. 42

 Abandon wrote:

grendel083 wrote:
We have from p12 "The Shooting Sequence" which is as follows:

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot,
2. Choose a Target,
3. Roll to Hit,
4. Roll to Wound,
5. Alloocate Wounds.

Now, p124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting" places working out if a unit benefits from Night Fighting firmly is step 2. of the Shooting Sequence.

The Barrage rules on p34 have you use the centre of the blast at step 5. of the shooting sequence.

Since by step 5 the unit has already gained Stealth/Shrouded, and these rules are not effected by where the shot comes from, shows that barrage weapons are not different than any other attack when it comes to determine the effects of Night Fighting.

This^

When do you determine cover saves?

Well the shooting rules state that you determine cover saves "when you come to allocate a Wound," P. 18

This is well after step 2. So you are incorrect you do not determine cover saves at step 2, you do it just before Step 5

...night fighting rules I'll get the page number when I get off work if you'd like.

You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2. You determine their cover save later by terrain and special rules... like stealth, shrouded or barrage, etc.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." they just say you have stealth or shrouded based on distance between the units. Therefore you determine cover saves just before Step 5.

For Barrage we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

The distance between firing unit (AKA Where the shots are coming from) is determined by the marker for a barrage.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." they just say you have stealth or shrouded based on distance between the units. Therefore you determine cover saves just before Step 5.

There is only one logical step to determine whether model has stealth or shrouded. And that is the same step where you determine can you target the opposing unit at all. Besides, we're not interested where the firing model is, we're interested where the firing unit is, and rules don't equate the friing unit being in the center of the blast at all.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For Barrage we "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)
The distance between firing unit (AKA Where the shots are coming from) is determined by the marker for a barrage.

So according to you, all Barrage has infinite range? I mean, you claim that the center of the blast marker is the firing model, meaning that you if your Barrage weapon has 36" range, you can place it 100" away and it will still be on range of the "firing model".

The only wrinkle comes when the degenerate case applies, where you have a single model unit - there model is == to unit.

Edit: Luide - dont make that claim, as DR has been very clear on when you use the blast as where the shot comes from - and range is not one of them Dont strawman

"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

 Abandon wrote:
"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

LRMBT loves night fighting now... this really does change how I think of building my IG forces from now on.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule."

-BRB pg. 124

Clearly indicates range must be determined at the time targets are selected and the effects of the determination.

Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

Except the Night rules clearly state that at the time of picking a target you determine if the target unit has the Stealth or Shrouded special rule generated by Night Fight.

The method of shooting during night fight is slightly different then normal.

1. Nominate one of your units to shoot.
2. Pick a target within range of your nominated units weapons, within LOS, within 36". If the target is 12"-24" away they gain the Stealth special rule. If the target unit is 24"-36" away they gain the Shrouded special rule.
3. Roll to hit. If firing a blast weapon, place the blast marker and roll for scatter. If the blast marker scatters, and hits a different unit, that unit gains the Stealth or Shrouded special rule the target unit gained due to Night Fighting.
4. Roll To Wound.
5. Allocate Wounds, roll saves (as allowed), and remove casualties. At this point we determine what saves (if any) the unit has. Does the unit have the Stealth or Shrouded special rule? Well that was already determined back in Step 2.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Nothing on page 124 states that "You determine if they have stealth or shrouded in step 2." Therefore we do this at the normal time, as nothing over-rides the rules about cover and barrage weapons.

P124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting"
The title says its step 2 in the shooting sequence straight away. The rule then explains that this is done when picking a target. Everything about the rule on p124 puts it in step 2, I've no idea how you don't notice that.

Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

True they grant a cover save. Thy are not however a cover save themselves. They are a Special Rule, granted by Night Fighting.

I think pg 18 should be mentioned here as well.

what is determining cover saves.
checking 25% from point of view of the firer. then checking the cover chart to find the type of cover if any.

Barrage just makes the center of the blast the spot to check for the 25%. It does not modify the distance between the two units. which night fighting is based on to grant a special rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Note both Stealth and Shrouded grant a cover save, or improve an existing one.

Thy are not however a cover save themselves. They are a Special Rule, granted by Night Fighting.

The Stealth/Shrouded rules disagree with you. They are a cover save themselves even if you do not already have a cover save.

Shrouded says "...Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open." P. 41

Stealth says "...Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is in the open." P. 42

Your ignoring your own post DR. Stealth and Shrouded are Special rules. They are not cover.

They permit a unit to have a cover save, even when one would not normally be allowed by normal situations.

And a unit that has S/S has a cover save vs a barrage weapon or an improved one if it already has a cover save.