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 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

What you're trying to convince people is that the Stealth / Shroud effect is tied to the distance from the shot, treating them as a cover save when they're not. They are modifiers to an existing cover save. In order for this to be true, then Barrage would have to follow it's own shooting rules. Is the Barrage rule it's own firing steps, or is simply just permissions/exemptions to the normal firing rules? You treat the shot as coming from the center of the model, when determining the cover save, and where wound allocation occurs. These are the only exceptions to the normal shooting rules granted by Barrage, and doesn't extend to anything else that would modify the normal shooting rules, which is what Night Fight does. No permission is given to treat everything from the center of the template, which you're attempting to do.

Can you still fire a Barrage weapon more than 36" away during a Night Fight? No, you can't. This supports that the Barrage rules are still affected by Night Fight before the shot is even fired. We only have permission to shoot something that is out of LoS, and anything that's more than 36" doesn't count as being out of LoS, it simply cannot be picked as a target. It's a flat restriction that all shooting is affected by. Just like a unit benefiting from Stealth / Shroud, it's a flat rule that is granted by the distance from the firing model to the target, with nothing changing to where any shot lands. Clarified under the Night Fight rules, by checking to see that the bonuses are granted to the original target, and not where the shot lands. Where the shot lands, has no bearing on whether a unit gets Stealth / Shroud.

The Night Fight rules grants additional effects to the shooting rules, which Barrage weapons are affected by. You measure the distance from the firing model to grant Stealth / Shroud. As has already been demonstrated, Barrage weapons are affected by the Night Fight rules, and no mention is made of ever check to see where the Night Fight range is measured from. You're relying on the assumption that since cover and wounds come from the center of the blast, that the Stealth/Shroud effect must also be measured from the center of the blast. There is nothing to say one way or the other, but there is stronger support to show that it doesn't, which is what we have to go on until they address it. Even in the Night fight rules, it says that units within 12" can be shot at normally. Are you shooting the a unit with a Barrage Weapon that is within 12"? No, so the Night Fight rules supersede the normal rules, and the unit you're shooting at still has Stealth / Shroud bonus regardless of where the shot lands.

I agree with Death Reaper's reasoning, from both a RAW and RAI perspective.

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

I can see the support for Barrage removing Stealth / Shroud from a RAI perspective, I've read all the rules involved, and it makes sense. Even if that is the case, I feel the RAI is to grant Stealth / Shroud for gameplay purposes There is insufficient RAW to support prevening Night Fight when compared to the RAW supporting that it doesn't remove Stealth / Shroud.

Stating that the RAW is that you measure the Night Fight distance from the center of the template is false, and doesn't exist anywhere in the book.

 DeathReaper wrote:

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

The conclusion relies on the assumption that the Barrage rules affect more than Checking for Cover, and Wound Allocation. Which isn't supported anywhere in the book.

Premise 3: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Akar wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)
Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from. (Do we agree on Premise #2?)

Both are correct. We're checking to see if a cover save is granted from where the shot lands, there is no issue with either of these, as it's what is permitted by the Barrage rules. You're extending this to also include whether Stealth/Shroud are also granted, without permission to do so. Premise 2 doesn't cover the Night Fighting distance, so while I agree with it because it is the rule, it doesn't remove Night Fighting benefits.

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Stealth and Shrouded affect the cover save of the target unit. (Do we agree on Premise 3?)

If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

This is completely incorrect. The distance involved is determining whether Special Rules apply to the unit, not whether it has cover. Being 30" determines that the target unit has Shrouded, which can affect a cover save, but Shrouded/Stealth are not "Cover".

They grant cover saves in and of themselves, and thus I believe that they are included in terms of what the barrage rules apply to and modify.

This is another of those poorly worded rules. The rules for Night fight make reference to UNIT only.

The Rules for blast and barage make reference to MODEL only.


It's the same argument as the Out of Sight rule. It also references UNIT only.

Obviously the rules for blast and barrage were intended to be exceptions to either of these rules. You can tell it because they have their own rules written outside of the normal rules for shooting.

Once again it's writters making rules that make sense in and of themselves but do not take into account other rules that exist in the book. BAD EDITOR!!!!!!

I'm not getting involved beyond this.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If so then Barrage and Stealth / Shroud rules come into play when you are checking for cover.

Yes they do when checking for cover. So they are applied, not granted, when checking for cover. The target unit already benefits from Stealth/Shroud when checking for Night Fight, which is from the firing model, not the firing shot. The only things we treat the firing shot is when determining what cover save the unit actually has, not whether they get Stealth / Shroud as a result of Night Fight. They apply their rules independently of each other.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

So you disagree with this statement "Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from."

So how do we determine cover saves, if not from where the shots are coming from?

Remember the cover rules state that a model is allocated a wound that model will get a cover save if it is"at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" (The firer is where the shots are coming from).

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker. "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34) The shot is now the center of the marker, not the model. Therefore the firer is assumed to be the center of the marker.

Premise #2 is solid, you can disagree with it, but you do not have any rules that back your position of disagreement.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

If you agree with both premises then here is the conclusion:
For barrage weapons, stealth/shrouded would be calculated as if the center of the blast marker was the firing model, as that is where the shot is coming from.

This conclusion is supported by premise 1 and 2.

A blast marker is now a unit?

I disagree with premise 2, the stealth/shroud is based solely on the distance between the two units. Its not based on the model shooting or what the model is shooting. see page 4 to see how distances between units are measured.

So you disagree with this statement "Premise 2: The cover save is granted, or not depending on where the shot is coming from."

So how do we determine cover saves, if not from where the shots are coming from?

Remember the cover rules state that a model is allocated a wound that model will get a cover save if it is"at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" (The firer is where the shots are coming from).

Premise #2 is solid.

Not all cover saves are determined from where the shot comes from.
Stealth, Shrouded, Jink, KFF etc. etc. none of these require the model to be obscured, or even care where the shot comes from.
So yes I disagree with Premise #2, it is incomplete.

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

Yes the shot.
That does not mean "shot = firing model"
The firing model is still capable of being the firing model. No rule changes that.

The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Also remember the rules state that, for barrage, the firer is considered to be the center of the blast marker.

I also disagree with this. The rules do not say this. The shot comes from the centre of the blast, it is in no way considered the firer.

Night fighting must be applied at the targeting stage, else you can't know if you can even target the unit. At this point Stealth/Shrouded is granted. At this point it does not matter where the shot comes from. Cover saves and allocation are the only things determined from the centre, Stealth is not a cover save, and is already in effect at this stage.

The rules actually do state that by saying "always assume the shot is coming from the center or the blast marker, instead of the firing model..." (34)

Therefore where the shot is coming from = the firing model.

no its instead of the firing model, where is the firing model? some 30" away. ergo shroud is granted to the unit. You then determine cover, ie a KFF 5+ shroud modifies it to 3+.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule on Page 34 equates where the shot is coming from to the firing model.

That's quite a leap.
It says the shot comes from the centre. No more, nothing equating it to firing unit.

Also when are the effects of Night Fighting worked out?
Page 124 "Picking a Target and Night Fighting"
During the targeting stage of shooting.
So the unit already has Stealth/Shrouded long before the final position of the blast is established.
Since Stealth cares not when the shot comes from, it really is irrelevant if the centre of the blast is the firing unit or not.

I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to premise 1, if you agree the two units are 30" apart.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Right, we've established that the shot comes from the blast.
Now where does it state the Firing unit is no longer the Firing unit? And shots can ONLY come from Firing units?

So Premise 1 & 2 are flawed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Nobody is arguing where the shot is coming from. i'm not sure why you are hung up on where the shot comes from to determine if the target unit is 12"+ away from the firing unit.

The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

Right, so the shot comes from the blast, but the firing unit is still the firing unit. Which is where night fighting is determined from (long bother the blast is placed I might add).

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The thing that changed my mind is,

"Instead of the firing model"

So we no longer consider the firing model, instead we only look at the center of the blast template. If the barrage weapon was coming from a unit firing other weapons not using the barrage rules, then we'd have models in that unit firing from >12". If the barrage weapon is coming from a unit firing only barrage weapons, then all of the blast markers are used "instead of the firing model".

Traceoftoxin's argument is the most convincing in my opinion.

Night Fight rules state that you cannot pick a target over 36". It then goes on to say that if the target is between 12" and 24" the target unit has the Stealth special rule, if over 24" the unit has shrouded.

At this point we haven't rolled to hit, haven't placed a blast marker, haven't done anything in the way of shooting other than picking a target. Picking the target is what bestows the Stealth/Shrouded special rule. Since the target picked in the OP's scenario was 30" away they have the Shrouded special rule until the units firing is complete.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

I'll agree to "Normally" if you agree that no rule says shots "only" come from firing units.

Shots come from firing models.

The units are however far apart the units are, that does not change the fact that the shot came from the center of the marker, and not the unit.

Which is irrelevant to the fact that the target unit has already gained stealth/shrouded when it was measured to be X distance away, Before the shot was even fired.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I will post this again because you seem to have missed it.

Where do shots come from normally?

Premise 1: Shots come from firing models (That are in a unit) (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

Yes, but (and I quote) To Determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, (That's important, because that's what we're doing) and when determining wound allocation always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of the firing model.

So normally, yes shots come from firing models

Premise 1: We are determining whether a unit is allowed a cover save (Do we agree on Premise 1?)

But when determining whether a unit is allowed a cover save the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker.

Where are the connections being made that:
A) Night Fight is granting a cover save? - It doesn't grant a cover save, it grants Stealth / Shroud, which modify an existing cover save, even if there isn't one.
*The premises made by Deathreaper are misleading in that he's getting us to agree that we check for cover saves from the center of the blast. Which is 100% correct. If we somehow think that they don't get Stealth or Shroud, then we're disagreeing with a premise that makes no mention of what the issue is. The fact remains that Barrage doesn't check for whether a unit has Stealth / Shroud, that's still done from the firing model, not the shot.

B) That we determine Night Fight from the center of a blast on Barrage?
*There needs to be some permission for the Barrage rule to extend to anything beyond checking for cover, or wound allocation. Everything else, which includes Night Fight, is still done from the firing model. Or are you actually implying we check LoS from the center of the blast marker, after the shot from the firing model is already used to determine whether the target unit is in LoS. There is no reason to ever treat everything from the center of the blast as if it's the firing model. When LoS is still determined from the firing model, and not the shot. It's own rule states that not everything is done from the center of the blast.

C) That Night Fight is determined as anywhere other than from the model that is making the attack?
* Read the Night fight rules, it only addresses picking a target, and the distance from the firing model, not the shot, is what determines whether a unit is granted Stealth / Shroud. After you've resolved the shot, you've already picked the target, and determined if the target has Stealth or Shroud. Or are you trying to convince us that you've picked your target, after you've resolved the shot, based on where the center of the template ends up?

Using the Barrage rule to get around Stealth / Shroud granted by Night fight, doesn't make any sense, no matter which way you apply it, look at it, dissect it, tear it apart.

Both Night Fight and LoS are done from the firing model. Neither the Night Fight rule, nor the Barrage rule change this.